0:00

and Crime contains graphic and

0:02

explicit content which may not

0:04

be suitable for some listeners.

0:06

Listener discretion is advised. You

0:23

are listening to Wine and

0:25

Crime, the podcast where two friends

0:27

chug wine, chat true crime,

0:29

and unleash their worst Minnesotan accents.

0:32

Gosh darn it. You know

0:34

they do. I'm curious

0:36

what kind of accents might

0:38

apply to today's topic.

0:40

I've never been to that

0:42

area, so I frankly

0:44

don't know. Not much of one.

0:46

Okay. Respect. The

0:49

accents aren't super strong in the

0:51

Southwest, the American Southwest. All right.

0:53

I don't think. I mean, I didn't when

0:55

we were in New Mexico, I feel like I

0:57

did not notice any like discernible

1:00

or to me

1:02

personally discernible, personally

1:04

distinctive regional accent. But

1:07

that's that's to my ear,

1:09

which which the value I

1:11

put on this is absolute zero.

1:13

Minimal. Yeah. Yep. So

1:16

I would love, honestly, like,

1:18

voice memo me, your American Southwest

1:20

accents, because I would love

1:23

them. Because... Oh,

1:25

I'm Lucy. Yep. I'm Amanda. Sorry.

1:27

I... Yep. We got a We

1:29

started before we started. got a

1:32

little ahead of ourselves. We

1:34

did. Today we have a

1:36

very special fan pick from Dustin

1:38

Perez. Thank you, Dustin. Thank

1:40

you, Dustin. Dusty P. Dusty.

1:43

Everything is Dustin Perez.

1:46

Dustin Perez is everything.

1:49

Dustin chose the topic

1:51

of Lake Tahoe crimes.

1:54

All the photos of

1:56

Lake Tahoe. It

1:59

looks Caribbean. Oh, my

2:01

God. It's just Gorgina.

2:03

I mean, we live in

2:05

such a huge country

2:07

that I frequently forget the...

2:09

boundless natural beauties that

2:12

exist right within even just

2:14

the contiguous United States.

2:16

It's wild. Yeah. So

2:18

we should protect them. Right. Right.

2:24

Well, I'm on a razor's edge. I

2:27

am barely clinging

2:29

on. When they say

2:31

skin of my

2:34

teeth, they mean it.

2:37

Didn't know my teeth had skin until I

2:39

was there. Yeah. Yeah.

2:41

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

2:43

Well, let's get going

2:46

because I think that this

2:48

might be a good

2:50

distraction from some of the

2:52

news. Yeah.

2:54

Okay. So,

2:56

Amanda, what is our wine

2:58

crime pairing for Lake

3:01

Tahoe Crimes? Well, Dusty P

3:03

recommended that we shout

3:05

out and check out. Tahoe

3:07

blue vodka, which

3:09

is a... Well, I literally wrote, don't

3:11

worry, the vodka itself is not

3:13

blue. Dustin would not harm us like

3:15

that. I've had my

3:18

time with Your UV

3:20

blue flashbacks, your PTSD.

3:23

You were fighting for your life

3:25

out there. dry just thinking about

3:27

it. One UV blue at a

3:29

time. No, this is a, frankly, stunning

3:32

looking vodka out of... Tahoe,

3:34

like when you go to

3:36

their website, which is TahoeBlueVodka.com,

3:38

you're greeted by literally the

3:40

glistening mountain foot waters of

3:42

Lake Tahoe. Mountain foot? Well,

3:45

you know, there's little ranges

3:47

in the background. It's gorgeous.

3:49

Yeah, it's just gorgeous. It's

3:51

just gorgeous. So the Tahoe

3:53

Blue Vodka is inspired by

3:55

Lake Tahoe. which straddles California

3:57

and Nevada with a maximum

3:59

depth of over 1 ,600

4:01

feet, which I'm sure you're

4:03

going to get to. This

4:05

is local to that region

4:08

and inspired by that region.

4:10

Okay. When you drink Tahoe

4:12

Blue Vodka, you support Lake

4:14

Tahoe because they donate a

4:16

portion of their proceeds to

4:18

help preserve both the lake

4:20

itself and the diverse environment

4:22

surrounding it. So I thought

4:24

that was pretty cool. that

4:26

you can drink, feel good

4:28

about what you're drinking because

4:31

you are supporting the conservation

4:33

and preservation of one of

4:35

our country's most gorgeous natural

4:37

features. This is the world's

4:39

only vodka crafted from pristine

4:41

Tahoe water. Oh, it's made

4:43

from the water? Sure is. It

4:46

is a three vodka blend that

4:48

finishes as clean and smooth as the

4:50

lake it's named for. So smooth,

4:52

in fact, it's claimed dozens of awards

4:54

and been named best tasting and

4:56

best in class by various judges. Well,

4:59

do they know how many corpses are

5:01

in Lake Tahoe? I don't know if they

5:03

do, but I have a feeling that

5:05

you do. Nobody

5:07

does. That you. Oh,

5:09

OK. Well, great. They

5:12

do have this at Total Wine.

5:14

They did not have it at my

5:16

local Total Wine, which makes me

5:18

really sad, but I'm going to order

5:20

it because it truly sounds spectacular.

5:22

But their website is awesome. It also

5:24

has recommendations of what to do

5:26

with your Tahoe Blue. And

5:28

they shared a couple of their

5:30

favorite recipes from among their staff, and

5:32

I'm going to share them with

5:34

you as well and then let you

5:36

know which one I'm drinking. All

5:38

right. So the founder's favorite, this is

5:40

super easy and delicious and refreshing. It's

5:42

a vodka soda, like a tall

5:44

boy with ice and one and a

5:46

half ounces, wink, wink, however much

5:48

vodka you need to put in there.

5:50

Tahoe blue vodka and then soda water.

5:52

But you garnish it with an orange

5:54

slice, which I'm a huge fan of.

5:56

Okay. In Amsterdam, they serve gin and

5:58

tonics in like a big goblet with

6:00

an orange slice. Yum. I'm

6:03

obsessed. We need more orange

6:05

garnishes. I agree. It's like

6:07

a limes. Uh -huh. Uh -huh.

6:10

Another one that is also

6:12

not blue, but the name

6:14

may confuse you, may send

6:17

you in a different direction.

6:19

A blue herring? It's a

6:21

blue herring. It's the Blue

6:23

Samurai, which is two ounces

6:25

of Tahoe Blue Vodka, an

6:27

ounce of simple syrup, a

6:29

pea -sized dollop of wasabi. Ooh.

6:32

And a cucumber slice. I

6:34

thought that one sounded awesome. Maybe.

6:36

Do you shake it then? Yeah.

6:38

You'd shake that in a or

6:40

yeah, you'd shake it. You'd make

6:43

one cocktail at a time in

6:45

your shaker. Yeah. They, of course,

6:47

have things like Bloody Marys, hard

6:49

lemonades, Tahoe Mule, you know, things

6:51

that are like the vodka classics.

6:53

But I also had to share

6:55

one that was going to fulfill

6:57

your fears. The lady in blue.

6:59

Which is, in fact, a blue

7:01

cocktail. And it is very blue.

7:03

It's like Margaritaville blue. I'm kind

7:05

of living for it. It's a

7:07

one and a half ounces of

7:09

Tahoe blue vodka, 0 .75 ounces

7:11

of lemon juice, 0 .5 ounces of

7:13

simple syrup, 0 .25 ounces of

7:15

creme de voilette, which is where

7:17

you get that some of that

7:19

blue. Then you're going to

7:21

top it off with a little blue

7:23

curacao. Of course, that blue

7:25

doesn't come natural. Nope, that's our girl.

7:28

Two drops orange flower water, and

7:30

you can garnish it with an edible

7:32

flower. So if you're looking for

7:34

something that's going to make you feel

7:36

like you're on a retired white

7:38

lady's island vacation, the lady in blue

7:41

is going to be the one

7:43

for you. If you're, what's it called?

7:45

Barb and star taking this to

7:47

Del Mar. Yep. Del Mar. You might

7:49

want to check out the lady

7:51

in blue, but I am drinking the

7:54

founder's favorite cute because I had

7:56

vodka and I had oranges and I

7:58

had soda and I want to

8:00

make clear. I did look up Tahoe

8:02

blue vodka to see if I

8:04

could get it at my local total

8:07

wine, but I could not, but

8:09

I do want to try this. So

8:11

check them out at. TahoeBlueVodka.com.

8:14

You can get recipe ideas,

8:16

learn about their business and where

8:18

you can get their stuff.

8:20

And it's just like, I want

8:22

to go to Lake Tahoe

8:24

so bad. I fucking do too.

8:26

Let's do a gals go

8:28

to Lake Tahoe. Done. Perfect. Are

8:30

you drinking anything fun or

8:32

special today? As I mentioned, I

8:34

had a cocktail before we

8:36

started. So I feel adequately pre

8:38

-lubed. Good. Great. And I got

8:40

my pen. Perfect. Then

8:42

you have everything on both ends.

8:45

I have everything I need and some

8:47

ice water. Oh, my

8:49

God. Well, let's take a quick

8:51

break to hear a word from

8:53

our sponsors so that you can

8:55

dive in to all of the

8:57

Lake Tahoe madness. Let's do it.

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apply. Welcome back to Whining Crime.

16:03

Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome

16:05

back. Lucy,

16:08

I am excited to hear How many

16:10

bodies are in Lake Tahoe? So

16:12

would you like to present your findings

16:14

to the class? You're not going

16:16

to hear how many because so many

16:18

will never be found. Gosh,

16:20

darn it. Gosh,

16:22

darn it. It's right. Golly. So

16:24

Lake Tahoe sits on the border

16:27

of California and Nevada. Make up

16:29

your mind. And is the largest

16:31

alpine lake. Take a side. Is

16:33

the largest alpine lake in

16:35

North America. So that means.

16:37

It's at or above the

16:39

tree line. She's up there.

16:41

Which Lake Superior is not.

16:43

No. No. So she sits

16:45

at over 6 ,000 feet

16:47

above sea level. She's also

16:49

very deep. As you mentioned,

16:51

she gets to about 1 ,600

16:53

feet deep, putting her in

16:55

second place behind Crater Lake

16:57

in Oregon, who is just

16:59

a bit deeper at 1

17:01

,900 feet deep. Hey, Siri,

17:03

how deep is the deepest

17:05

part of Lake Superior? The

17:07

deepest part of Lake Superior

17:09

is 1 ,333 feet, 406 meters.

17:12

No, don't care. Don't care. Shut

17:15

your mouth. Shut up. Shut

17:17

your mouth. Wow.

17:20

Okay. So they're not like,

17:22

I mean, I would assume in

17:24

terms of depth and pressure,

17:26

that's a pretty decent difference at

17:28

300 feet. But like to

17:30

us, if you're going to walk.

17:32

1 ,300 feet versus 1 ,600

17:34

feet, it doesn't feel that different.

17:36

I don't think it really would. But

17:39

dang, that's some deep ass

17:41

fucking lakes. It's very deep, especially

17:43

considering when you think about

17:45

the pressure and what can survive

17:47

down there. Yeah. There isn't

17:49

a big difference between 1 ,600

17:51

and 1 ,900 feet. I guess

17:53

not. Once you

17:55

get into that zone, you're

17:57

crushing. Literally crushing. So

18:00

Lake Tahoe is the sixth

18:02

largest lake by volume in the

18:04

United States. So it's basically

18:06

the five Great Lakes and then

18:08

her. Interesting. I wonder

18:11

why she didn't make the cut.

18:13

Well, the Great Lakes are kind

18:15

of connected up up there, you

18:17

know, I suppose. She's kind of

18:19

alone down southwest. She's holding it

18:21

down. She's holding it down. So,

18:23

of course, this makes the lake

18:25

a hub for tourism because being

18:27

surrounded on all sides by mountains

18:29

and gorgeous forests makes for excellent

18:31

skiing in the winter and those

18:33

beaches, that water, the sheer size.

18:35

Does she freeze? I don't

18:37

think so. Yeah, because Lake Superior doesn't

18:39

really freeze either. You'll get some ice

18:41

like right along the shoreline, but it's

18:43

not a lake that you can like

18:46

skate or ice fish on. It's like,

18:48

no, it has like a fucking tide.

18:50

Well, this is also, like,

18:52

in Nevada. Right. Oh, true.

18:54

Yeah. I look at those

18:56

snow -capped mountains surrounding it, and

18:59

I'm like, oh, it's cold.

19:01

Wait. No. It gets

19:03

cold, but it's not, like, how

19:05

Lake Superior is always fucking,

19:07

like, 35 degrees or some shit.

19:09

Yeah. Much different swim in it.

19:12

It's at a higher altitude, but it

19:14

is in, it's in the desert. A

19:16

warmer, yeah. It's in a warmer region.

19:18

Mm hmm. So like I mentioned, Lake

19:20

Tahoe is unique because of its size.

19:22

It is so big that at the

19:24

widest point, which is over 100 miles,

19:27

you can't see the other side and

19:29

you but you can see the curvature

19:31

of the earth on its surface. Mm

19:33

hmm. She big. Yeah. That being said,

19:35

if the air temperature is way higher

19:37

than the water temperature, like if the

19:39

water is really cold and the air

19:42

is much warmer, the light

19:44

refracting, the light refraction

19:46

can occur, which. can

19:48

result in Fata Morgana,

19:50

which is a mirage,

19:52

like an optical illusion

19:54

created at the horizon

19:56

line that looks like

19:58

towers. It looks like

20:00

vertical. So these may

20:02

be responsible for the Tahoe

20:04

Tessie sightings. Like their Loch Ness

20:06

Monster. Yes, and I just

20:08

don't care about that kind of

20:10

thing. The exasperation in your

20:13

voice. Do not talk to Lucy

20:15

about a cryptid. Do fucking

20:17

not. care. I

20:19

just don't. They're so out there.

20:21

Listen. They're not real. Except

20:24

that weird bird. That was in

20:26

Iowa. That was a weird

20:28

one. Bigfoot is real. And I

20:30

don't care who tries to

20:32

fight me on it. I

20:35

mean, at Tahoe Tessie, can

20:37

we be a little more trite? It's just

20:39

stupid. It's on like a bunch of

20:41

their merch. Grow

20:43

up. Just

20:48

not all that righteous

20:50

indignation for Tahoe Tessie.

20:53

Sea monsters. Not your thing. I

20:55

was really into them in

20:57

third grade. For a

20:59

full year, I was really into them.

21:01

I checked out old books from

21:03

the library, like ones that didn't even

21:05

have pictures about sea monsters. Well,

21:07

that's absurd. Yeah,

21:09

I had a hard phase.

21:11

And you know what? I

21:13

was eight. Yeah, you're past

21:15

it now. I'm very much

21:18

past it. Okay. We'll get

21:20

to the creatures that I

21:22

prefer. Okay. That we attribute

21:24

these Fata Morgana sightings to.

21:26

So Fata Morgana is the

21:28

translation of Morgan the Fairy

21:30

in Italian. And so that's

21:32

from the King Arthur legend

21:34

of Morgan Le Fay. Okay.

21:36

And so these. Optical illusions

21:38

were named such by sailors

21:40

in the Strait of Messina

21:42

where these mirages were described

21:45

as fairy castles or false

21:47

land created by Morgan's magic. Weird.

21:50

Mirages are nuts to behold. Especially

21:52

when you're in the middle

21:54

of the ocean and you think

21:57

you see like land and

21:59

like a towering, glittering city. Yeah.

22:01

I mean, in the middle of

22:03

something that is so big that

22:05

it feels like an ocean, at

22:08

least in this case. Yeah, well,

22:10

the phrase Fata Morgana comes from

22:12

ocean travel. The Italian explorers. Yeah.

22:14

So when I thought of Lake

22:16

Tahoe, I got it confused with

22:18

Lake Como. Which, that's

22:20

Italy, right? Wait, which one am

22:22

I thinking of? Lake... Havasu.

22:25

I thought of, yes, Lake

22:27

Havasu. From Vanderbilt Rules. Real Housewives.

22:29

I thought of Real Housewives. They

22:31

go to Lake Tahoe in Housewives for

22:34

sure. But I know VPR went to

22:36

Havasu. It's like they can't afford Tahoe.

22:38

Orange County went to Havasu, too, because

22:40

I feel like the Gundolfsons had a

22:42

lake house there. Probably. So

22:44

upon Googling, it was Real

22:46

Housewives of Beverly Hills, season

22:49

11, episode 2. They

22:51

rented a house. Reno rented a

22:53

house. At the time, it

22:55

was $8 ,000 per night. It's

22:57

17 ,000 square feet. It has

22:59

17 bedrooms and 18 bathrooms. Okay.

23:01

It can host up to

23:03

40 people. Like sleeping comfortably with

23:05

a partner in a comfortable

23:07

sleeping arrangement. It has bed space

23:09

for 40 people. Yeah. And

23:12

there were seven ladies, maybe eight.

23:14

Well, and the crew. Well,

23:16

yeah. And also, like, of course,

23:18

they're going to be extra

23:20

anyway. But this is this is

23:22

where the two truths and

23:24

a lie episode takes place in

23:26

which Kathy Hilton doesn't understand

23:28

the basic rules of two truths

23:30

and a lie. It's a

23:32

very complex game. And then Erica

23:34

wants everyone to think that

23:37

she's super mysterious and she just

23:39

is so vapid. I can't

23:41

even stand it. I know. What

23:43

a monster. So this house

23:45

has a Himalayan salt cave, an

23:47

indoor swimming pool. A

23:49

secret tunnel to the lake and the

23:51

pier. My God. And

23:53

its own hair and nail

23:55

salon. In the house? Yeah. This

23:58

is one of those properties where it's

24:00

like rich people built this as a

24:03

house so it could be like zoned

24:05

that way or homesteaded or whatever. It's

24:07

got to be some sort of tax

24:09

thing, but it's definitely a commercial property

24:11

that they built to rent out for

24:13

like weddings. Large private

24:15

events. Yes. And no one

24:17

was ever going to live there.

24:20

It was built by Mr.

24:22

Hera of Hera's Casino Empire. That'll

24:24

do it. Yep. That'll

24:26

do it. That fits

24:28

just right. Hey,

24:31

do what you got to do.

24:33

So Ben found it on

24:35

Vrbo. It is now $12 ,000

24:38

a night. Ew. But you can

24:40

rent it. Well, one could. I

24:43

absolutely cannot. I

24:45

also found the, well, I saw

24:47

on Instagram, the house in White

24:49

Lotus where Greg slash Gary lives

24:51

with Chloe is on Airbnb for

24:53

$13 ,000 a night. Jesus. Okay,

24:55

let me do the math on

24:57

how many people I would have

25:00

to split that with to be

25:02

able to afford it. You could

25:04

split it with 40 full people.

25:06

Well, that doesn't, it's $1 ,200 a

25:08

night? $12 ,000 a night? Yes.

25:10

12 ,000 a night divided by

25:12

40 is still on the high

25:14

end of my price range. How

25:16

much a night? 300. I

25:18

also don't know 40 people I'd want

25:20

to hang out with for a whole

25:23

night. I mean, fair. Not that you

25:25

see many of them because it seems

25:27

like the place is so fucking big,

25:29

it'd be pretty easy to avoid people.

25:31

Yeah. You can pretty much all have

25:33

your own bathroom. If I'm spending 300

25:36

bucks and splitting everything with all of

25:38

my friends, I want a couple nights

25:40

out of it, not one night. Yeah,

25:42

it's still $1 ,000 basically living in a

25:44

frat house. Yeah. A really nice frat

25:46

house. The world's nicest frat house. No,

25:48

thanks. Next. Next. I'd rather split it

25:51

with fewer people, but I obviously couldn't

25:53

afford that if I won the lottery.

25:55

I think I would maximum 12 people.

25:57

Yeah. Even in a 17 ,000 square

25:59

foot house. Yeah. No. No. It's too

26:01

big. I don't like it. Pull a

26:04

Denise and get a hotel. Yeah. Okay.

26:07

Lake Tahoe is fed by

26:09

67 tributaries. So like little streams

26:11

that come down from the

26:13

mountains, but not like full. substantial

26:15

rivers so those give it

26:18

about half of its water and

26:20

the rest is from precipitation

26:22

cool there's only one outlet which

26:24

is the truckee river which

26:26

flows north through reno up past

26:28

reno about 15 miles to

26:30

pyramid lake interesting pyramid lake remember

26:33

when we were at the

26:35

convention in albuquerque and we were

26:37

talking to that guy that's

26:39

right when my gummy kicked in

26:41

when he saw he saw

26:43

the ufo Yeah. No way.

26:45

That's why I started Googling Pyramid Lake.

26:48

There's a bunch of weird UFO

26:50

stuff, but there's also what I'm about

26:52

to talk about. All right. So

26:54

Pyramid Lake is just too fun not

26:56

to give a brief moment to

26:58

before we head back south to Lake

27:00

Tahoe. So Pyramid Lake is on

27:02

the Paiute Reservation. And Paiute folklore

27:04

says that the lake was formed from

27:06

the tears of the stone mother, probably

27:09

from all the mountains. Some

27:11

other tribe legends include

27:13

water babies. Ooh. So

27:16

these are babies that were

27:18

born prematurely or that were born

27:20

with disabilities, and they were

27:22

taken to the lake to drown.

27:24

Oh, my God. That's terrible.

27:26

It is, but that wasn't uncommon

27:28

back when we didn't have

27:30

civilizations large enough to really have

27:32

the means and resources to

27:34

take care of. of course. Of

27:36

course. Like, I get it.

27:38

It's just fucking tragic. It is,

27:40

but that is a real

27:42

part of what probably every civilization

27:44

around the world has gone

27:46

through at some point. I feel

27:48

like that kind of death

27:50

is a lot quicker and much

27:52

more merciful than the inevitable

27:54

death that also comes with draining

27:56

a bunch of resources from

27:58

your community, you know? Yeah,

28:00

not my place to say. If

28:02

you were in this position,

28:04

obviously there is no fucking reason

28:06

for this. this kind of

28:09

practice now nowadays no not saying

28:11

that yes a very sad

28:13

thing a very sad fact of

28:15

life also this is legend

28:17

so i'm not even trying to

28:19

say that they really did

28:21

do this but yeah i know

28:23

that some for sure for

28:25

sure this absolutely happened across cultures

28:27

and communities in like the

28:29

early times of man this was

28:31

survival at its most brutal

28:34

yeah So it is said that

28:36

these babies never left the

28:38

lake, and their spirits still live

28:40

there, and they call out

28:42

to fishermen to lure them into

28:44

the water where the fishermen

28:46

drown. Yeah, get their revenge. Get

28:48

your revenge, water babies. But

28:51

water babies is such a sweet

28:53

name. It's like, no, they're like

28:55

creepy baby sirens. Yeah, and I'm

28:57

living for it. Yeah. Every

29:00

spring, there are reports of babies

29:02

crying on the shore of the lake.

29:04

Whoa, that gave me a chill.

29:06

Also, springtime is when most of the

29:08

drownings occur. There's

29:10

also a legend of

29:12

a singular spurned mermaid. One

29:16

mermaid. She was so annoying about

29:18

it that no other mermaids even

29:20

wanted to live in the same

29:22

lake. Pretty much. I'm obsessed. So

29:25

the story goes that she, the

29:27

mermaid, was dating a tribesman. The

29:29

family of the tribesman did not

29:31

accept their love. And ordered him

29:33

to return the mermaid to the

29:35

lake. She is not allowed here.

29:38

No mermaids allowed. The mermaid was

29:40

pissed off. And so she cursed

29:42

the lake and everyone around it.

29:44

And so that's why there are,

29:46

again, so many drownings and mysterious

29:48

disappearances associated with lakes. Oh. Good

29:51

for her. Right. I'll

29:53

say it again. And I will

29:55

say it forever. So,

29:57

like I said, these mysterious

29:59

drownings. but perhaps even more

30:01

mysterious, the discoveries of the

30:03

drowned victims. So remember when

30:05

I said, well, okay, so

30:07

Pyramid Lake is not nearly

30:09

as deep as Lake Tahoe.

30:11

It gets up to about

30:13

350 feet deep, but it

30:15

also has like really steep

30:17

drop -offs and it has

30:19

like currents. Okay, so

30:22

I think I understood this

30:24

correctly, but my interpretation of this

30:26

was because of the altitude

30:28

of the lake, So

30:30

divers can only go about 90 feet

30:32

deep. And I think this is because

30:34

of like the air pressure in their

30:36

tanks and all that stuff. Because they

30:38

have to factor in how far above

30:40

sea level they are. Oh, that's so

30:42

interesting and scary. So

30:45

they can only go about 90 feet

30:47

out of the 350 feet deep that

30:49

the lake is. Okay. So they can't

30:51

even see what is all the way

30:53

down there in real time. They'd have

30:55

to send down some sort of device.

30:57

Well, yeah, but also like if they

30:59

weren't really paying attention, they weren't really

31:01

aware of how deep they were. All

31:03

of a sudden they can't get back

31:05

up. So divers

31:07

sometimes go missing. But the weirdest

31:09

part is that some people remember

31:12

where I remember how I said

31:14

that Lake Tahoe feeds into Truckee

31:16

Lake, which flows into Pyramid Lake. Sometimes

31:19

people who have drowned in

31:21

Pyramid Lake end up being

31:23

found in Lake Tahoe. Like

31:26

their remains made it. Reverse.

31:28

Up river. Up river. Weird.

31:30

Which means that the river

31:32

must have like flowed backwards

31:34

somehow. Or it was an

31:36

army of underwater babies. Or

31:39

a singular pissed off

31:42

mermaid. I can't even wrap

31:44

my head around that.

31:46

Isn't that gross? That's so

31:48

weird. Yeah. Oh. Yeah.

31:50

No. Like, it's weird. It's a

31:52

weird, weird place. That really creeps

31:54

me out. I know. That really

31:56

fucking creeps me out. That's one

31:58

of the creepiest things I've heard

32:00

in a long time. And you're

32:02

my best friend, so that's saying

32:04

a lot. The

32:07

fuck? And, like, it wasn't just

32:09

one. It's been, like, several. And also,

32:11

like, stories of people. Like,

32:13

it's not just a one -off. No.

32:17

Next. Absolutely not. All right.

32:19

So we're going back upriver

32:21

to Lake Tahoe, just like

32:23

those bodies. Good God. So

32:26

it is a conifer forest

32:28

around the lake. So conifer

32:30

meaning like pines. We've got

32:32

the Pinus Jeffrey, the Jeffrey

32:34

Pine. Jeffrey Penis. The Pi

32:36

Contorta, the Lodgepole Pine. And

32:39

the Pi Lambertiana. I don't

32:41

know why I'm putting an accent on it. Why

32:43

not? Pi Lambertiana.

32:45

I'm back in Italy. Or

32:47

the sugar pine. But not

32:50

the dusty pea. No dusty

32:52

pea. Okay. Only pea

32:54

contorta. Just trying to figure

32:56

out why Dustin would pick this

32:58

episode if there's no dusty

33:00

pine. I don't remember why they

33:02

picked this episode. I'll go

33:04

back in the email on our

33:06

next break. Figure that out.

33:08

So Lake Tahoe is also the

33:11

only known habitat for the

33:13

ultra rare Rorippa sabumbalata. A

33:15

.K .A. the Lake Tahoe yellowcress.

33:17

It's a bird? It's a

33:19

plant. A plant? She's real cute, too.

33:21

I have a picture of it

33:23

on the drive. Okay. I'll

33:26

bite. Little yellow. It

33:28

looks like a... Oh, that's

33:30

pretty. It's like a

33:32

fern meets a succulent with

33:34

a little yellow bud

33:36

on it. Little yellow blossoms.

33:38

Gorgeous. Yeah, it's like

33:40

a succulent fern. It's really

33:42

cool. only

33:44

grows between the low -water

33:46

mark and the high -water

33:48

mark on the shores of

33:51

Lake Tahoe. Wow. How

33:53

weird. And it's only been

33:55

observed a few dozen

33:57

times. So it's extremely rare,

33:59

a plant. It's extremely

34:01

rare. Wow. That's fucking amazing.

34:04

Mm -hmm. She's part of the

34:06

mustard family. Can you imagine? Meese

34:09

of Colonel Mustard. What? Horticulturists

34:12

must... lose their shit if

34:14

they ever see this fucker

34:16

in real life yeah between

34:18

low water low water and

34:20

high water so you have

34:22

to even right time of

34:24

year time it right right

34:26

time yeah like oh that's

34:28

so bizarre yeah lake tahoe

34:30

is fascinating well these massive

34:32

lake ecosystems are so fucking

34:34

cool and weird and now

34:36

we're way into it after

34:38

having geo on our Oh,

34:40

yeah. That episode of GAC.

34:42

Truly. I bet there's so

34:44

much Spooky Lakes Month Tahoe

34:46

content. Mm -hmm. Mm

34:48

-hmm. I'm in. Yeah.

34:51

Follow Spooky Lakes Month

34:53

Geo, Geosaurus on

34:55

TikTok. Who was named

34:57

because her mom is

34:59

like a geologist, scientist. Which

35:02

cracks me up. I'm

35:05

obsessed. Geo. Geo. Okay, so I

35:07

have some folklore, like an origin

35:10

story, some name origin story for

35:12

you. Okay. This is from a

35:14

1905 edition of Sunset Magazine in

35:16

which a member of the Washoe

35:18

tribe recounts the naming of the

35:21

lake. Okay. So in their stories,

35:23

they had the Ong, O -N -G,

35:25

and this was like a really,

35:27

really fucking big bird. Oh. It

35:29

was described as bigger than the

35:31

house of the white man. Good.

35:34

Its body was like an eagle's

35:36

and its wings were longer than

35:38

the tallest pines. Wow. It also

35:40

said like as it flew by,

35:42

like trees would like bend in

35:45

the wind that the wings made.

35:47

Damn. Quote, their words,

35:49

not mine. Its face was that of

35:51

an Indian, but covered with hard

35:53

scales and its feet were webbed. So

35:55

because it was scaled, it like

35:58

couldn't, their weapons didn't work against it.

36:00

Oh, cool. big bird that they

36:02

couldn't, you know, obviously this was like.

36:05

I've been playing Monster

36:07

Hunter recently and I

36:09

am imagining some adversaries

36:12

that I have had

36:14

to defeat that were

36:16

quite challenging. Some monstrous

36:18

adversaries. Monster Hunter is

36:20

a very hard game. You would hate it. You

36:23

would hate it so much. You

36:25

would want nothing to do with it.

36:28

I already don't. I won't even play

36:30

it by myself. It's not like it's

36:32

scary. It's just genuinely challenging combat. So

36:34

it's the only game that I'm using

36:36

my headset, getting out with my friend

36:38

Aaron, and when I'm like, meet me

36:40

at this rally point because I

36:42

have to defeat this monster, and I

36:45

need your help because I'm a little

36:47

pussy and I can't do it myself. Talk

36:50

on our little mic. Ew,

36:53

what was that gross way you

36:55

talked to each other? Oh,

36:57

no, we just... to make the

36:59

same sound effect as Link from

37:01

Ocarina of Time when he's like

37:03

fighting something. He just goes like. Oh,

37:06

right. So

37:12

I'll be over at Robbie's and like want

37:14

something from Aaron from another room and just

37:16

be like. Robbie

37:18

hates it. I hate it.

37:22

Ew. Gross. Yeah.

37:25

Why'd you go down an octave for the

37:27

last one? Oh, that was him and I

37:29

was the other. Yeah, that was him responding.

37:33

Sick. I'm never talking

37:35

to Aaron ever again. I

37:37

mean, that might be out of

37:39

your control, depending on what voice

37:41

memos I send you later this

37:43

week. Ew. Don't

37:45

make me get perverted revenge.

37:50

Back to the on. So

37:52

its nest was in the middle of

37:54

the lake. In my mind, it's floating

37:56

in the middle of the lake. Right.

37:58

So the waters of the lake come

38:00

out from the nest because they knew

38:02

that there were no real rivers feeding

38:05

it. They just had those mountain streams

38:07

like Wallace. Water has to come from

38:09

somewhere. It's coming from Ong's nest in

38:11

the middle of the lake. So the

38:13

Ong would make the waters rush out

38:15

and then flow back to the nest.

38:18

which I think is like alluding to

38:20

the currents of the lake, where

38:22

the nest would siphon out the food

38:24

for the Ong. So like fish. It

38:27

would splash around the water

38:29

and it would use the

38:31

nest as a sieve to

38:33

get its food from the

38:35

lake. But the Ong's favorite

38:37

was human flesh. Despite

38:39

this, he was described as

38:41

a coward, even though he was

38:44

really big and powerful. Birds

38:47

scare easy. They do.

38:49

So they said he wouldn't ever attack

38:51

two or more people in a group. So

38:53

basically they were like, don't ever go

38:55

out by yourself. Don't ever go

38:57

out on a boat by yourself. No.

39:00

Stay buddy system. So one day the

39:03

chief of the tribe had to choose

39:05

a husband for his daughter, Nona, before

39:07

leaving the lake for the winter. In

39:09

the hills above, a young man named

39:11

Tahoe had been meditating and praying since

39:13

he had no acts of valor to

39:15

recommend him as husband to the chief's

39:17

daughter. So he had a crush on

39:19

the chief's daughter. He basically had nothing

39:21

on his resume. Yeah. I was like,

39:24

OK, I have to do something really

39:26

drastic. Yeah. So as

39:28

he's looking out over the

39:30

lake, who shows up but Ong?

39:32

Oh, no. Young Tahoe

39:34

gets the Ong's attention like,

39:36

hey, over here. Ong

39:38

snatches him up and Ong was going

39:40

to fly up really high and

39:42

then drop him into the nest waters

39:45

so he could come down and

39:47

eat him. But the young

39:49

man, Tahoe, brought a long

39:51

buckskin rope with him and tied

39:53

the Ong's legs together and then

39:55

tied himself to the other end

39:57

so that when Ong tried to

39:59

drop him, he couldn't do it.

40:01

They were tied together. Love

40:03

it. Love There's a struggle and

40:05

then they both. careen

40:08

into the lake. The

40:10

rest of the tribe, while, you know,

40:12

upset about the loss of the young man,

40:14

well, what are you going to do?

40:16

They continue the council to select a husband

40:18

for Nona. Nona's like,

40:20

ah, but I actually really liked

40:22

him. Yeah, that's my boy. So

40:24

she sneaks off, takes a canoe

40:26

out into the lake, saying, Tahoe,

40:28

my darling Tahoe, as she searches

40:30

for the man she loves the

40:32

next morning. Okay, so. I

40:35

pictured this as like the

40:37

end of Moana. Okay. What I

40:39

think the legend says is

40:41

the two lovers arrive back on

40:43

shore riding on one of

40:45

Ong's wings while the other wing

40:47

is being used as a

40:49

sail. Oh, damn. They made a

40:51

boat out of that bird.

40:53

They made a fucking sailboat out

40:55

of Ong's remains. Sick. And

40:57

they just drift up on shore.

40:59

Yes. Tahoe was decided

41:01

that he was a worthy husband

41:03

for Nona. As

41:05

long as Ong's nest remains

41:07

in the lake, the drowned never

41:09

rise in Lake Tahoe. So

41:11

is there something in the center

41:14

of the lake? No. To

41:16

this day? It's just saying like

41:18

as long as Ong's nest

41:20

is still there, then the lake

41:22

will never give up. It's

41:24

dead. The current. But really, in

41:26

actuality, the waters in the

41:28

lake are cold enough that an

41:30

almost perfectly preserved body of

41:33

one of said divers was

41:35

found at a depth

41:37

of 300 feet 17 years

41:39

after they went missing. Damn.

41:44

Pretty preserved. So I think it's

41:46

kind of like Lake Superior where

41:48

it's so cold at a certain

41:50

depth that you're not going anywhere.

41:52

You're down there. Oh, God. Yeah. Nope.

41:56

So Lake Tahoe, fascinating. I definitely want

41:58

to go there someday. Yeah, but I'll

42:00

be staying on shore. I'll dip my

42:02

feet in. Don't go anywhere by yourself.

42:04

You'll get snatched up. That's fair. I'll

42:06

swim to the extent that, like, I

42:08

can still touch. Kind of like how

42:11

I respect the ocean. I'll

42:13

go swimming in the ocean, but not, like,

42:15

open water. I'm not jumping

42:17

off a boat. No. Into Lake Tahoe

42:19

or an ocean. Uh -uh. I wouldn't jump

42:21

off a boat into Lake Superior. I

42:23

mean, I get freaked out jumping off

42:25

a boat in Lake Minnetonka. Yeah. Water's

42:28

just a little too dark. Mm -hmm. It's

42:31

a little too... I feel like I'm jumping

42:33

off a cliff. Yeah, it's a little scary. If

42:35

you think about it too hard, it's not

42:37

great. Okay, so I

42:39

do have a case for us today. Okay.

42:41

It is tied to Lake Tahoe, but not

42:43

really till the end. But this

42:45

is the story of

42:47

the I -5 Strangler. Ooh,

42:50

yuck. And

42:52

a lot of this is from

42:54

Bruce Henderson's book called Trace Evidence,

42:56

The Hunt for an Elusive Serial

42:58

Killer. Okay, drama. Okay, give

43:00

away the ending. Roger

43:02

Reese Kibbe. Was born

43:04

on May 21st, 1939, a

43:07

Gemini in San

43:09

Diego County, California. Not

43:11

a lot known about

43:13

his upbringing, just

43:16

I think because it was,

43:18

you know, the 40s. But

43:20

his mother allegedly was abusive

43:22

and at school he was

43:24

bullied for his stutter. As

43:26

a teenager, he was arrested

43:29

for petty theft and prowling. He

43:31

was observed stealing women's

43:33

bathing suits and stockings.

43:37

Not loving this so far.

43:39

He's a creepy motherfucker. Henderson

43:42

claims in the book that Kibbe

43:44

enjoyed tying himself up with women's

43:46

underwear and cutting the clothes up

43:49

with scissors. There was something about

43:51

cutting the women's clothes with scissors.

43:53

And when? What age were these

43:55

behaviors? Teenager. Yeah, okay.

43:57

I mean, not that

43:59

like... I'm a big fan

44:01

of that in general. No,

44:04

a specific incident was when

44:06

he was, I think, 15. But

44:08

yeah, when you're really there's

44:10

a difference, obviously, between these behaviors

44:12

when you're very young and

44:14

these behaviors as like a consenting

44:16

adult in a, you know,

44:18

trusted relation with some with another

44:21

consenting adults. Like, I don't

44:23

care when you cut up women's

44:25

clothes as long as that's

44:27

like the extent and. everyone is

44:29

consenting and it never escalates

44:31

to anything worse which it definitely

44:33

does yeah but this is

44:35

yeah this is going somewhere scary

44:37

i don't like it okay

44:39

so cutting up the clothes with

44:41

scissors one source said that

44:43

his like criminal record had a

44:45

note in it this is

44:47

when he was 15 about being

44:49

caught trying to bury a

44:51

box filled with stolen cut up

44:54

women's clothing Yikes. All right.

44:56

Cool. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool,

44:58

cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.

45:00

As an adult, he sold furniture

45:02

as a job and in

45:04

his free time, he enjoyed skydiving.

45:07

What? Which I thought was so random

45:09

for an activity in like the

45:11

60s and 70s, but it is important.

45:13

We will get back to the

45:15

skydiving. Not at all what I thought

45:17

you were going to list as

45:20

like a hobby. It's like another Mad

45:22

Lib case. Yes, seriously. While

45:24

trying to distribute cheeseburgers to the

45:26

homeless. I don't think that episode will

45:28

have come out yet by the

45:30

time this episode comes out. Spoiler. That's

45:32

in the April gag. Teaser. Teaser. Well,

45:36

it was yesterday to me, so.

45:38

Literally, we recorded it yesterday, so it

45:40

is easy to get confused. Yeah.

45:43

Okay, so he settled down and

45:45

married a woman named Harriet,

45:47

who was allegedly very domineering, according

45:50

again to Henderson's book. But

45:52

also like same. Don't marry me

45:54

if you're. Don't marry me

45:56

if you're going to wreck all

45:58

my underwear. Right. I'm

46:00

going to be domineering if I have

46:02

like shapes cut out of my bras

46:04

and stuff. Yeah. And I'm going to

46:07

be pissed. Very domineering. That was like

46:09

the only description of his wife. So

46:12

rude. So rude.

46:14

A newspaper in Stockton also

46:16

reported that his brother was

46:19

a homicide detective. So

46:21

in hindsight, this led people

46:23

to speculate that it's possible that

46:25

he like talked to his

46:27

brother, asked his brother a lot

46:29

of questions about police procedures

46:32

and in particular evidence collection in

46:34

order to learn how to

46:36

cover his tracks. Okay. The activities

46:38

last from 1977 to 1986

46:40

or 87, about a decade, but

46:43

like that particular decade. So

46:45

think of that when we're talking

46:47

about like the evidence. Okay.

46:49

What he might have learned about the

46:51

evidence collection. Okay. Jumping

46:53

forward to September of 1977.

46:56

Best of my love by the emotions is

46:58

at the top of the charts. You got

47:00

the best of my love. You

47:02

got the best of my

47:04

love. Along with the Star

47:07

Wars theme song. Oh, hell

47:09

yeah. 77. What a year.

47:11

My parents graduated high school in

47:13

76. Oh, wow. Yeah, my parents

47:15

were definitely in college. But yeah,

47:17

that would be such a fun

47:19

year. The summer of 77. They

47:21

might have been out of college by

47:23

77. Because they waited a while before

47:25

having my sister. And then five years

47:27

later, they finally got everything they wanted.

47:29

Not me. Finally

47:32

at the jackpot. Finally at the

47:34

jackpot. After slogging through five years

47:36

alone with that nightmare. Just

47:39

kidding. We love you. You're the better of

47:41

the two. Trust me. I

47:43

second that. Trust me. Ashley,

47:45

can we talk more? Okay. Okay.

47:50

Remember when we watched the Vanderpump reunion

47:52

after Scandaball? On Zoom together. The

47:54

three of us on Zoom. That

47:57

was a good time. That was really fun.

47:59

You can talk to her whenever you want. I'm

48:01

sure she'd love it. Probably.

48:03

Who wouldn't? Who wouldn't? Apparently,

48:05

Kibbe was bored at

48:07

this time back in

48:10

September 77. No skydiving

48:12

trips? That wasn't

48:14

fulfilling him anymore. He

48:16

decided to place a fake ad in

48:18

a newspaper, like an employment ad, like looking

48:20

for an employee, know, like a job,

48:22

a job ad. Right, right. In

48:24

order to find a victim

48:27

to assault, 21 -year -old Llewellyn Burley,

48:29

Llewellyn Burley answered the ad.

48:31

Kibbe said that his, oh, my

48:33

office is under construction. Why

48:35

don't we meet in my van?

48:38

Absolutely not. But

48:41

she did. He then drove

48:43

her to Lake Berryessa in Napa

48:45

County, where he raped and

48:47

strangled her before dumping her body

48:50

in a nearby riverbed. No.

48:52

When Llewellyn was reported missing, Kibbe

48:54

was briefly considered a suspect,

48:56

according to the L .A.

48:58

Times. But alas, Llewellyn would

49:01

not be found for another

49:03

30 years. 30 plus. So

49:05

sad. On April 21st, 1986.

49:07

So this is almost a decade

49:09

later. This is like 11

49:11

and a half years later. Okay.

49:13

A woman named Laura Hedick.

49:15

One article said Lori, but more

49:17

of them said Laura. Okay.

49:20

She was also 21 years old.

49:22

She was seen getting into

49:24

the car of a man in

49:26

his 50s, and she was

49:28

never seen again. So Laura would

49:30

sometimes engage in sex work

49:32

due to her addiction issues. Of

49:34

course, that doesn't describe her

49:36

as a full individual person. Right.

49:38

Of course not. But again,

49:40

I don't have a lot of

49:42

information here, especially about the

49:44

women in this case. In

49:46

September of that year, so

49:48

that's like five or six months

49:50

later, her remains were found

49:52

off of I -5, which

49:54

was southeast of Sacramento. She had

49:57

also been raped. Investigators

49:59

noted odd shapes were cut

50:01

out of her tank top before

50:03

it was used to strangle

50:05

her. So he cut up her

50:07

shirt and then killed her

50:09

with it. Uh -huh. The pattern. Laura's

50:12

boyfriend at the time saw the man

50:14

who picked her up and described him

50:16

to the cops so they could make

50:18

a composite sketch. Okay. So they have

50:20

a composite sketch. So like I said,

50:22

that was April 1986. After

50:24

that, things really begin to

50:26

escalate like very quickly, considering

50:28

it was almost 10 years

50:30

between his first known victim

50:32

and this second known. So

50:34

that same year, 1986, in

50:36

July. So this would

50:39

be before Laura's body was discovered. Kibbe

50:41

abducts Barbara Ann Scott, age 29,

50:43

before killing her and dumping her

50:46

body along a stretch of road

50:48

in Contra Costa County. That

50:50

was on July 3rd. On July

50:52

15th, 19 -year -old Stephanie Brown was

50:54

abducted. Her car was found abandoned

50:56

on I -5 and her body

50:58

was found in a drainage ditch. Like

51:02

the other victims, she had

51:04

also been raped and strangled. The

51:06

NBC Sacramento affiliate said that

51:08

portions of her hair had been

51:10

cut with scissors. Oh, so

51:13

this isn't like hair that had

51:15

been like grabbed maybe in

51:17

a struggle. This was like taking

51:19

as a memento cut. It

51:21

was cut. Intentional. Oh,

51:23

no. Yeah. One

51:26

month later on October

51:28

17th, Charmaine Sabra,

51:30

age 26. This

51:32

is so gross. Was

51:34

driving home with her mother when their

51:36

car broke down along I -5. Surprise,

51:39

surprise. What do you know? A good

51:41

Samaritan stops by to help. But oh

51:43

no, he can only take one person

51:45

in his car into town. No.

51:48

Charmaine's remains were not discovered

51:50

for three months. Her

51:52

body showed signs of sexual abuse,

51:54

strangulation, and both her clothing

51:56

and her hair had portions cut.

51:58

Away with scissors. Wow.

52:01

So obviously now people are worried

52:03

there's a serial killer on the

52:05

loose. Because they have a string

52:07

of bodies. Then they were all

52:09

found along I -5. The

52:11

police began to utilize

52:13

undercover female officers to pose

52:15

as broken down motorists. Witness

52:18

statements described the suspect as a

52:20

middle -aged man with a big

52:22

nose. So that kind of went

52:24

into the composite sketch. During

52:26

this dragnet operation, Kibbe actually

52:28

did get stopped on a

52:31

routine traffic violation. But they

52:33

didn't put it together. They

52:35

didn't clock it as him.

52:37

The cops were surprised at

52:39

how much he looked like

52:41

the composite sketch. So

52:43

I have a picture of the composite sketch

52:45

and his mugshot. Oh, my God. This is

52:47

so funny because I also have a side -by

52:49

-side composite and mugshot in my case. It's

52:51

not the same case, but there are similarities. Do

52:54

you see it? The

52:56

jawline, the lips, the nose. That's

53:00

shocking. Uh -huh. Whoa.

53:03

Yeah. I'm kind of surprised

53:05

they missed his mole in

53:07

the composite, but otherwise. Yeah.

53:10

I mean, I don't know who

53:12

else were the witnesses. Sure. Except

53:14

for the boyfriend of Laura. Okay.

53:16

And I think she got into

53:18

his car at night. Okay. So

53:20

she might not have seen it.

53:22

Yeah, it's like, I don't if

53:24

they didn't meet like face to

53:26

face. I

53:28

don't know. But yeah, considering how

53:31

little they had to go

53:33

on from a singular witness testimony

53:35

to make this composite, it's

53:37

very good. Maybe

53:39

Charmaine's mother also would have been able to

53:41

give, you know, because she she was

53:43

with Charmaine when the car broke down

53:45

and Charmaine went with. Sure. She would have

53:48

seen him. Yeah. But

53:50

OK, so I. Different

53:52

sources said different things. So

53:54

either the cops saw him, looked

53:56

at the composite sketch and

53:58

was like, oh, shit. And he

54:00

was driving a similar car

54:03

that matched the witness statements. OK.

54:05

Either they just photographed his

54:07

car and sent him

54:09

on his way or they

54:12

searched his car at

54:14

this point where they found

54:16

nylon parachute cord. Oh, the

54:18

skydiving. Mm hmm. scissors, and

54:21

handcuffs. Oh, it's not looking good

54:23

for you, Kibbe. Either way,

54:25

he was questioned but released without

54:27

charges being filed because they

54:29

just did not have sufficient evidence,

54:31

whether they had just photographed

54:34

the car or if they searched

54:36

the car at this time

54:38

or in the next incident. I

54:41

mean, I guess, but I

54:43

hate that. Before the end

54:45

of 1986, Kibbe would kill

54:47

another woman named Catherine Kelly

54:49

Quinonez, aged 25. Finally,

54:52

in September of 1987, he

54:54

was arrested after he tried to

54:56

abduct a sex worker in

54:58

downtown Sacramento. So this badass fought

55:00

back when he was trying

55:02

to handcuff her and just screamed.

55:05

Good for her. And a

55:07

cop intervened, heard her screaming. And

55:09

after taking him into custody. They

55:11

impounded his car and they found

55:14

evidence which linked him to the

55:16

I -5 killings. So whether they

55:18

searched his car earlier when they

55:20

stopped him for that traffic stop

55:22

or they didn't search it till

55:25

they impounded his car now. They

55:27

eventually found. They eventually found evidence. And

55:30

since they wanted time to gather all the evidence because

55:32

they were like, oh, my God, if this guy is

55:34

responsible for these. Five or

55:36

six other homicides. We need time

55:38

to get all the evidence and

55:40

build all the cases. Sure. So

55:42

in the meantime, they were able

55:44

to get him for battery and

55:46

solicitation for trying to abduct the

55:48

woman in Sacramento, which put him

55:50

behind bars for eight months while

55:52

they could continue their investigation. Damn. He

55:55

was first brought to trial

55:57

for the murder of 17

55:59

-year -old Darcy Frackenpole. Hmm. So

56:01

she was a runaway whose

56:03

body had been found in

56:06

1987 near Lake Tahoe, where

56:08

Kibbe's brother, the homicide investigator,

56:11

lived. Wait. So that's the connection

56:13

to Lake Tahoe. It's kind of

56:15

tenuous. I'm sorry. Wait, did I

56:17

miss that Kibbe's brother was investigating? I

56:20

don't think he was investigating this

56:22

case, but he was a homicide investigator.

56:25

Jesus. Because that's when we

56:27

said, well, in hindsight. Some people think

56:29

that he was able to ask his

56:31

brother about evidence collection. Okay. And that's

56:33

why it took them so long to

56:35

get him. Yep. I

56:38

mean, that is a very

56:40

reasonable speculation. Not

56:42

all of our speculations are reasonable,

56:44

but like... We'll kind of get...

56:46

We'll get to it a little

56:48

bit more. Oh, fuck. Okay. So

56:50

Darcy had been strangled using that

56:52

same type of cord that Kivy

56:54

had been using for skydiving, the

56:56

parachute cord. the fibers of

56:58

which were also linked to

57:00

three other killings. So he used

57:02

the exact same cord. Oh.

57:05

Parachute cord. Oh,

57:07

God. He had

57:09

a literal murder

57:11

kit containing handcuffs

57:13

and a pair

57:15

of his mother's

57:17

scissors, his abusive

57:19

mother's scissors. That's

57:21

what he was using to cut up. happens

57:23

when you don't heal from your trauma? It

57:26

kind of reminded me of you when you

57:28

stole your mom's sewing scissors. Yeah, but I stole

57:30

them because they were cute and their handles

57:32

were like little goose. It was like a little

57:34

goose. Oh, I know. And I wanted to

57:36

try cutting my own bangs. And it was a

57:38

disaster. As long as you're

57:41

not cutting anyone else's bangs. was five.

57:43

I know. His mother's scissors.

57:45

You kind of remind me of this serial killer

57:47

who used his mom's scissors. I didn't say you

57:49

reminded me. I don't think I said that. Meant

57:52

to say this reminds

57:54

me. You remind me

57:56

of a girl that

57:58

I once knew. Anyway.

58:00

In 1991, Kibbe

58:02

is convicted of first degree murder

58:04

and sentenced to 25 to life.

58:07

Everyone is certain that he's the I -5

58:09

strangler at this point. But apparently there

58:11

were like jurisdictional complications and like a

58:13

lack of hard evidence. And it just

58:15

took a while. He also like wasn't

58:18

really talking. It took him a while

58:20

to like. say anything

58:22

about where these where these victims

58:24

were okay okay so here

58:26

is the grossest part according to

58:28

me the prosecutors alleged that

58:30

kibbe would handcuff his victims to

58:32

abduct them he'd wrap duct

58:35

tape all way around their head

58:37

and their mouth to silence

58:39

them oh my god then he

58:41

would do whatever he did

58:43

assault them cut their clothes use

58:45

his parachute cord to strangle

58:47

them sometimes he turned it into

58:50

a garrotte Oh, God. And

58:52

then he would use the scissors

58:54

to cut the tape off

58:56

of their hair so he wasn't

58:58

leaving any tape behind. Tape

59:00

evidence. Because they could

59:03

get fingerprints off of tape. Oh,

59:05

he was thinking more about the

59:07

fingerprints than the actual like. The

59:09

homicide investigator brother. Oh, yeah.

59:11

Wait, what the fuck? I think

59:13

that he knew that they could get

59:15

fingerprints off of things like duct

59:17

tape. so instead of just ripping i

59:19

don't know he used the scissors

59:21

to get the tape off of the

59:23

girl's head totally so the the

59:26

cut hair wasn't even a memento it

59:28

was just uh yeah something that

59:30

happened when he was cutting the tape

59:32

off as part of his mo

59:34

i could have been both but yeah

59:36

isn't that fucking gross that's so

59:38

gross it's all gross but like i

59:40

assumed you meant that like locks

59:42

of hair were cut but that like

59:44

the hair as a whole wasn't

59:46

necessarily super disturbed but yeah if you're

59:48

wrapping the whole there's probably a

59:50

lot of hair that was cut oh

59:52

oh my god because none of

59:55

the articles said like you know like

59:57

a lock of her you know

59:59

like no a chunk of her hair

1:00:01

was cut it just said her

1:00:03

her hair had been cut with scissors

1:00:05

yep oh isn't that nasty i

1:00:07

hate it Okay, so

1:00:09

he's sitting in jail at this point.

1:00:11

Finally, in the 2000s, we get the

1:00:13

technology to analyze DNA evidence. Because

1:00:15

remember, I think all of these

1:00:17

women were sexually assaulted. In

1:00:20

2008, Kibbe was indicted on

1:00:22

six counts of murder and

1:00:24

multiple special circumstances. Meaning

1:00:26

there was evidence of him doing

1:00:29

something extra fucked up that would like

1:00:31

amp up the sentence. Do you

1:00:33

know what I'm saying? Pile

1:00:36

on those charges, bitch. So

1:00:38

he got one special circumstance

1:00:40

for each victim, which made

1:00:42

him eligible for the death

1:00:44

penalty. On September 29th, 2009,

1:00:46

he pled guilty to the

1:00:48

rape and murders of Llewellyn

1:00:50

Burley, Laura Hedick, Barbara Ann

1:00:52

Scott, Stephanie Brown, Charmaine

1:00:54

Smith, and Catherine Kelly Quinonez.

1:00:56

Damn. This plea, as well

1:00:58

as agreeing to lead investigators

1:01:00

to his first victim, Llewellyn,

1:01:02

was enough to keep the

1:01:05

death penalty off the table. So

1:01:08

he did bring them to like

1:01:10

a it was like a site

1:01:12

near like a river. Yeah. He's

1:01:14

just to save his own ass

1:01:16

from the death penalty. But they

1:01:18

didn't find anything. And then like

1:01:20

two years later, they brought him

1:01:22

back there. They again didn't find

1:01:24

anything. Two years after that, an

1:01:26

investigator went back to that site

1:01:28

by himself and ended up finding

1:01:31

finding. a bone that belonged to

1:01:33

her damn so she really was

1:01:35

where he said she was right

1:01:37

they just didn't find her they

1:01:39

just didn't find her those two

1:01:41

times where kibby was with the

1:01:43

investigators it was another person who

1:01:45

went like you know off the

1:01:47

clock or whatever yeah and when

1:01:49

you think about it her her

1:01:51

remains had been out there for

1:01:53

so long animals the elements like

1:01:56

because that was in 70s Yeah.

1:01:58

And this was in 2011. It's not

1:02:00

not about to do that math. It's not

1:02:02

unbelievable to think that he would give

1:02:05

the right location, but that they wouldn't find

1:02:07

anything there for a long time. I'm

1:02:09

glad that they eventually fucking did. Mm

1:02:11

hmm. Oh, God. These poor

1:02:13

women. Here's the best part.

1:02:15

In March of 2021, Kibbe was

1:02:17

found unresponsive in his jail

1:02:19

cell. Bye. Medical

1:02:21

staff immediately responded. He was transported to

1:02:23

the prison's health care facility, and

1:02:25

despite life -saving measures, he was pronounced

1:02:28

dead at 1 .20 a .m. An

1:02:30

investigation led to his cellmate,

1:02:32

Jason Boudreaux, himself a convicted

1:02:34

killer and a Satanist. Not

1:02:36

that that matters. And he

1:02:39

was charged with murder in

1:02:41

Kibbe's death. Guess how he

1:02:43

killed him? Well... were

1:02:45

cellmates, so they probably didn't have

1:02:47

a whole lot of access to

1:02:49

stuff, but I'm going to lean

1:02:51

into irony and say he tore

1:02:53

up parts of his clothes or

1:02:55

something and choked him. Well, he

1:02:57

strangled him to death. Okay. But

1:02:59

given the fact that he was

1:03:01

called the I -5 Strangler and

1:03:03

he killed at least seven women,

1:03:05

six or seven women by strangling

1:03:07

them. You know? Seems like a,

1:03:10

you know. It's fitting. Not that

1:03:12

I condone, you know, whatever, blah,

1:03:14

blah, blah, blah, blah. Seems like

1:03:16

a fitting end for this fucking

1:03:18

asshole. It's fucking fitting. All

1:03:20

right. That's the I -5 Strangler.

1:03:22

Damn. What a turd. little

1:03:24

bit about Lake Tahoe. Lake Tahoe. I want

1:03:26

to go real bad. I do too.

1:03:28

I want to go to Pyramid Lake. Oh,

1:03:30

well, let's take a break to hear

1:03:32

a word from our sponsors, the sponsors that

1:03:34

we need so that one day we

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can go to Lake Tahoe and Pyramid Lake.

1:03:39

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I want her fired. I

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today at stitchfix.com slash

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slash gals. My

1:10:06

case is also really sad and

1:10:08

there are a lot of similarities

1:10:10

and it's from the 70s. It's

1:10:12

not the same, but it's kind

1:10:14

of crazy. Great. It's kind of

1:10:16

crazy. How that panned out. Today,

1:10:18

I'm going to be taking you

1:10:20

back to 1970s Lake Tahoe and.

1:10:23

The story of the brutal murders of

1:10:25

two young women, Bryn

1:10:27

Rainey and Carol Anderson. For

1:10:30

decades, their families lived with unanswered

1:10:32

questions and their cases were just

1:10:34

getting colder and colder with each

1:10:36

passing year. There was definitely long

1:10:38

stretches of time when these families

1:10:40

likely assumed that they would never

1:10:42

know exactly what happened to their

1:10:44

children. So they knew they were

1:10:46

dead. They were found dead, but

1:10:49

they didn't know what happened. Correct.

1:10:52

Our first story begins in the summer

1:10:54

of 1977. Bryn Rainey,

1:10:56

a 27 -year -old originally from Ohio,

1:10:58

had recently moved to South Lake Tahoe

1:11:00

after falling in love with the

1:11:02

area while attending a family wedding there.

1:11:04

How cute is that? She

1:11:06

just loved it. just loved it. Drawn to

1:11:08

the beauty of the lake, she took a

1:11:11

job in that area as a Keno runner

1:11:13

at the Sahara Tahoe Casino in Stateline, Nevada.

1:11:15

And Keno is a lottery game that I,

1:11:17

like, I guess it's kind of like a

1:11:19

card game, but also kind of like bingo.

1:11:21

I could not for the life of me

1:11:23

figure it out. So if you want to

1:11:25

know more about that game, I am not

1:11:27

the one. Okay, listeners. I think it's, I

1:11:29

get it confused with Plinko. Yeah,

1:11:32

I mean, there's like a little card and

1:11:34

then there's like. You can play it on

1:11:36

like the big video screen. Yeah. Yeah,

1:11:39

I I couldn't figure it out

1:11:41

and I lost interest in trying

1:11:43

to understand it. I'm sorry, but

1:11:45

she was into it and she

1:11:47

worked at the casino like running

1:11:49

Kino. Okay. On the evening

1:11:51

of July 23rd, 1977, Brynn

1:11:53

had some spare time before her 2

1:11:55

a .m. shift because the casino is

1:11:57

open 24 hours. So people are on.

1:11:59

Shifts that wouldn't seem normal to us,

1:12:01

but that's normal for her. Imagine starting

1:12:03

work at 2 a .m. Girl, my body

1:12:05

could never, but, like, good for her.

1:12:07

Good for her. So she probably just

1:12:09

was like, all right, well, I'm awake.

1:12:11

I don't work till 2 a .m.

1:12:13

I'm going to go grab a drink

1:12:15

at the Bitter Creek Saloon before work.

1:12:17

The bartender later recalled seeing her that

1:12:19

night and noted that no one seemed

1:12:22

to bother her. No one even saw

1:12:24

her leave. Like, she was there. She

1:12:26

kept to herself. She had a drink

1:12:28

or two. It's she seemingly

1:12:30

just left of her own accord. We didn't

1:12:32

see anybody specifically with her or like trying

1:12:34

to lure her out or harassing her or

1:12:36

anything like that. Seems like a good thing.

1:12:38

It's a very good thing. But then Bryn

1:12:40

didn't show up for that 2 a .m.

1:12:42

shift. And her co -workers were

1:12:44

the first to notice her absence because she was

1:12:46

like always on time, such a good employee. And

1:12:49

fortunately, they tried to get in

1:12:51

touch with her and couldn't and cared

1:12:53

enough to call the police. And

1:12:56

have like a wellness check done on

1:12:58

her apartment. When authorities checked her

1:13:00

apartment on Emerald Bay Road in South

1:13:02

Lake Tahoe, they found the apartment

1:13:04

empty and nothing disturbed. It was like

1:13:06

Brynn had just vanished into thin

1:13:08

air. Or like left for work. Yeah,

1:13:10

but like left for work but

1:13:12

never made it to work. Had been

1:13:14

seen, clearly had been in her

1:13:16

apartment at some point, but it was

1:13:19

perfectly clean. Didn't pack anything. Last

1:13:21

place anybody else saw her was at

1:13:23

the bar and there was... weird

1:13:25

that happened at the bar. She quietly

1:13:27

had a drink and then she

1:13:29

left and then poof, she's gone. Never

1:13:31

makes it to work. For

1:13:33

nearly a month, she was

1:13:35

missing and they were family, friends,

1:13:37

authorities were looking for her.

1:13:40

I just can't imagine the constant

1:13:42

literal heartache of having a

1:13:44

loved one missing. No. The not

1:13:46

knowing is a kind of

1:13:48

hell that I can't even fathom.

1:13:50

I know. I think about

1:13:53

it every time we talk about

1:13:55

someone who's just, especially someone's

1:13:57

child is just missing. Yeah. I

1:13:59

can't, don't want to wrap

1:14:01

my head around that. No. Then

1:14:03

on August 20th, 1977, a

1:14:05

horseback rider at Stateline Stables made

1:14:08

a grim discovery. Oh, I

1:14:10

hate a grim discovery. I know.

1:14:12

A shallow grave along the

1:14:14

trails that they were riding. In

1:14:17

the grave, police found Bryn's

1:14:19

badly decomposed body. Her purse was

1:14:21

still there. Containing her identification.

1:14:23

It was buried nearby, but it

1:14:25

was like on the site.

1:14:27

You know, it did it. It

1:14:30

indicated that it wasn't like a

1:14:32

robbery. How did how did horseback

1:14:34

riders find a shallow grave? I

1:14:36

think it was just a foot

1:14:38

was sticking out. I think it

1:14:41

was very shallow and just very

1:14:43

obvious that like something was off.

1:14:45

It was haphazard to say the

1:14:47

least. OK. While

1:14:49

the extent of decomposition made it

1:14:52

difficult to determine the official cause

1:14:54

of death, because it would have

1:14:56

been August in this area, so

1:14:58

it's not cold. Yeah.

1:15:01

And she's in a very shallow grave

1:15:03

where I think she was exposed

1:15:05

to the elements, possibly animals, like... There's

1:15:07

animals around. For sure. So this

1:15:09

all made it difficult to determine the

1:15:11

official cause of death, but forensic

1:15:13

evidence suggested that Brynn had been sexually

1:15:16

assaulted and strangled. There was not

1:15:18

a lot of evidence at the scene.

1:15:20

They collected everything that they felt

1:15:22

was important at that time. You know,

1:15:24

they did the autopsy. They determined,

1:15:26

like, we can't be 100 % sure,

1:15:28

but we're pretty confident her cause of

1:15:30

death was strangulation. They were able

1:15:33

to find in some of the, like,

1:15:35

tissue that was left at the

1:15:37

arms and legs that there were possible

1:15:39

ligature marks. But again, it's like,

1:15:41

we're not 100 % sure, but it

1:15:43

could be this. If all

1:15:45

that... tissue is gone

1:15:47

or going away. Yeah.

1:15:50

It always kind of shocks

1:15:52

me how forensic pathologists

1:15:55

and coroners can kind even

1:15:57

get what they do

1:15:59

get. Yeah. Yeah. That

1:16:01

book Autopsy that I read by

1:16:03

that Australian dude, when I told

1:16:05

you about the death because you

1:16:07

move your neck wrong. Yeah, thanks.

1:16:11

It's like eagle neck syndrome or

1:16:13

something. No.

1:16:16

Him just going through the autopsies

1:16:18

of these various crazy deaths.

1:16:20

He's like, I noticed X, Y,

1:16:23

and Z. I'm like, how? That

1:16:25

training is really

1:16:27

important. remarkable. It is

1:16:30

remarkable. So good. So they don't

1:16:32

have a ton of evidence.

1:16:34

They don't have any witnesses. And

1:16:36

Bryn's case quickly goes cold.

1:16:38

Two years later, in the summer

1:16:40

of 1979, tragedy struck again.

1:16:42

16 -year -old Carol Ann Anderson lived

1:16:44

in Stateline, Nevada. On

1:16:46

June 30th, 1979, she went to a

1:16:48

house party near the Heavenly Ski

1:16:50

Resort. According to a 2015 news article,

1:16:52

Carol's sister mentioned that the teenager

1:16:55

had epilepsy and that her mother rarely

1:16:57

allowed her to go out because

1:16:59

of her condition, which to me, I

1:17:01

think, alludes to the possibility that

1:17:03

Carol snuck out. She's 16. She wants

1:17:05

to go do teenager things like

1:17:07

knowing her mom would likely say no.

1:17:09

This could easily have been any

1:17:11

of us at that age. We literally

1:17:13

did do this. Yeah. So

1:17:16

my first thought was hereditary when

1:17:18

the mom makes the brother take the

1:17:20

little sister, but she has like

1:17:22

this crazy nut allergy. Yeah. No, as

1:17:24

far as I know, Carolyn's sister

1:17:26

wasn't at the party. Okay. But that

1:17:28

Carolyn had just commented like, yeah,

1:17:30

she went to the party. Our mom

1:17:32

almost never let like anyone go

1:17:35

out. or never let her go out

1:17:37

because of her epilepsy. Mm -hmm. It

1:17:39

just triggered the hereditary. A thousand

1:17:41

percent. A thousand percent. So she

1:17:43

goes to the party, and as the night

1:17:45

wore on, Carol's friends left the party one

1:17:47

by one, each offering her a ride home,

1:17:49

which she declined. She wanted to stay and

1:17:51

make the most of a rare night out.

1:17:53

It's like, especially if she snuck out, it's

1:17:55

like, I'm going to get in trouble. I'm

1:17:57

making every minute count. Absolutely. The

1:17:59

last time anyone remembers seeing Carol

1:18:01

was around 1130 p .m., still at

1:18:03

the party. Police believe she likely left

1:18:05

the party on foot alone and

1:18:07

perhaps hitched a ride with a stranger,

1:18:09

which was a common practice for

1:18:12

teenagers in the 1970s, as we know

1:18:14

from the hitchhiking episode and many,

1:18:16

many times that's come up. Mm

1:18:18

-hmm. The following morning, someone

1:18:20

called the police to report finding

1:18:22

a body on Sundown Trail. Now,

1:18:24

this... read a couple things that -

1:18:26

Sundown Trail. I know, kind of

1:18:28

scary. But Sundown Trail, I think,

1:18:30

was like a side road because

1:18:33

another report said that she was

1:18:35

spotted by a passing motorist. So

1:18:37

I don't think this was a

1:18:39

hiking trail, kind of like the

1:18:41

horseback riding thing. This was clearly

1:18:43

- A road. But like this

1:18:45

area where she was found, it

1:18:48

wasn't exactly bustling, but it was

1:18:50

clear that he wasn't trying to

1:18:52

hide her. Okay. So that's like,

1:18:54

that's the distinction that I, that

1:18:56

I'm making from Bryn's site of

1:18:58

discovery and Carol's site of discovery.

1:19:00

Got it. The manner of her

1:19:03

death. Oh, sorry. It says, unlike

1:19:05

Bryn, no attempt had been made

1:19:07

to conceal Carol's body. So she

1:19:09

wasn't even in a shallow grave.

1:19:11

She was just like dropped there.

1:19:13

Passed out of the car. Possibly.

1:19:15

Or, you know, like,

1:19:18

yeah, I'm not sure. Because even

1:19:20

these crime scenes, like, because it

1:19:22

wasn't. Because there wasn't like blood

1:19:24

because they were strangled. They may

1:19:26

have been killed there. They may

1:19:28

have been killed somewhere else and

1:19:30

then left there. We're not sure.

1:19:32

We still don't know. The manner

1:19:34

of her death, Carol's death, bore

1:19:36

a chilling similarity to Brynn's death,

1:19:38

despite the fact that Carol wasn't

1:19:40

buried the way that Brynn was.

1:19:42

Ligature marks on Carol's wrists indicated

1:19:44

she'd been bound. And like Brynn,

1:19:46

Carol had been strangled and there

1:19:49

was evidence of sexual assault. though

1:19:51

Carol was fully clothed when her

1:19:53

remains were found. I don't know

1:19:55

exactly what the state of Bryn's

1:19:57

dress or undress was. I didn't

1:19:59

see that in what I read,

1:20:01

just that her remains were badly

1:20:03

decomposed. I also

1:20:05

saw that both of the

1:20:07

young women were considered like,

1:20:09

quote unquote, brutally beaten. So

1:20:11

they definitely sustained a lot

1:20:13

of injuries that whether or

1:20:15

not the decomposition had been were

1:20:18

still able to be picked up

1:20:20

like on Bryn's autopsy. But I don't

1:20:23

think Carol was because she was

1:20:25

so haphazardly left. I don't think she

1:20:27

was dead for nearly as long

1:20:29

as Bryn because it was like weeks

1:20:31

before Bryn was found. I think

1:20:33

Carol was found pretty soon after it

1:20:35

happened. So they were able to

1:20:37

actually get more, you know, quote unquote

1:20:40

evidence or at least of what

1:20:42

happened to her off of her actual

1:20:44

body. Yeah. A newspaper report at

1:20:46

the time suggested that police were looking

1:20:48

for two suspects. I'm

1:20:50

not sure why they thought it might

1:20:52

have been two. I don't think

1:20:54

they knew right away that these cases

1:20:56

were connected and that they noticed

1:20:58

that they were similar. But they I

1:21:00

don't think had at that point

1:21:02

wrapped their heads around the fact that,

1:21:04

yeah, it's in a very similar

1:21:07

area. It's probably the same guy. They're

1:21:09

like, oh, these two different attacks.

1:21:11

This is so weird. But. Still no

1:21:13

leads were found in Carol's case

1:21:15

either. So neither Carol or Bryn's cases,

1:21:17

despite, you know, being a couple

1:21:19

of years apart in a similar fashion

1:21:21

in a similar area. We just,

1:21:23

nobody was coming forward. Nobody saw anything.

1:21:25

Nobody knew what the fuck was

1:21:27

going on. And then Carol's case also

1:21:29

went cold. So for decades, both

1:21:31

Bryn and Carol's families mourned unaware of

1:21:33

the connection that would eventually link

1:21:35

their murders. Like they didn't even know.

1:21:38

Nobody connected them? I don't

1:21:40

think so. Not at this

1:21:42

time. Jesus. They just, again, it's

1:21:44

like that two suspects thing. They weren't

1:21:47

looking for two suspects each in the same

1:21:49

attack. They were looking for like two

1:21:51

different suspects in two different attacks. I don't

1:21:53

think that they thought at all that

1:21:55

they were connected. So

1:21:57

for over four decades, over

1:21:59

40 years, the murders

1:22:01

of Bryn Rainey and Carol

1:22:03

Anderson remained unsolved mysteries. And

1:22:06

as I was reading about these

1:22:08

girls, It just this cases like

1:22:10

this and this particular case like

1:22:13

really makes me wonder and try

1:22:15

to look deeper at what investigators

1:22:17

are doing in these long stretches

1:22:19

of cold cases. And the reality

1:22:21

is not that much, which is

1:22:23

why there's so little for me

1:22:25

to report on from that 40

1:22:27

year plus stretch of time from

1:22:29

when this happened and when we

1:22:32

found out who did it. Yeah.

1:22:34

And as much as we

1:22:36

have opinions about police. I'm about

1:22:39

to get to it. When

1:22:41

it comes to cold cases, in

1:22:43

a lot of cases, they

1:22:45

know that the technology to advance

1:22:47

something is coming down the

1:22:49

turnpike. It's definitely yet. I mean,

1:22:52

it's definitely a yes and

1:22:54

situation. That is certainly a factor.

1:22:56

Lack of evidence is certainly

1:22:58

a factor. But like this made

1:23:00

me want to look into

1:23:02

this. So I did. Because,

1:23:05

you know, I'm not one to

1:23:07

give the justice system a pass at

1:23:09

any point, even when I am.

1:23:11

I can also hold the truth that

1:23:13

some of these cases do not

1:23:15

have enough for a determination to be

1:23:17

made. I do understand that. But

1:23:19

it is another angle of the structure

1:23:21

of police funding that begs to

1:23:23

be scrutinized and reevaluated, because even like

1:23:25

today, we're sitting on mountains of

1:23:27

evidence that just hasn't been tested because

1:23:29

we don't have the resources for

1:23:31

it. The backlog. Yeah. So

1:23:33

while, of course, the advancements we

1:23:35

have now weren't available during this

1:23:37

investigation, a lot of cold cases

1:23:40

stay cold because resources are reallocated

1:23:42

to new cases that have more

1:23:44

evidence and cold cases have very

1:23:46

little hope of being reopened until

1:23:48

compelling new evidence arises to put

1:23:50

resources back on that case. Yeah.

1:23:52

And they're just sitting in a

1:23:55

folder or whatever. And as. The

1:23:57

victims' families, even in some of

1:23:59

these cases, literally die and there's

1:24:01

no one left advocating for them.

1:24:03

They're just collecting dust, even when

1:24:05

there is new technology. So, like,

1:24:07

if we reallocated resources to more

1:24:09

cold cases, what evidence could, A,

1:24:12

be uncovered if investigators were actually

1:24:14

tasked to keep investigating rather than

1:24:16

wait for something new to come

1:24:18

across the desk or for some

1:24:20

new technology to emerge? So

1:24:23

that's neither here nor there. It's a

1:24:25

frustrating issue that we see time and time

1:24:27

again on this show. It sent me

1:24:29

down a bit of a rabbit hole on

1:24:31

cold cases. I did find a study

1:24:33

from the Council of State Governments Justice Center

1:24:35

that highlighted just how pervasive unsolved cases

1:24:37

are even now in the modern era of

1:24:40

forensic technology. And like that's more of

1:24:42

a resource allocation issue, not we don't have

1:24:44

the technology to solve it. Yeah. So

1:24:46

this said, quote, in 2022, which is when

1:24:48

they completed this study. So obviously there's

1:24:50

probably more data now, but like this was

1:24:52

so recent enough that I found this

1:24:54

really compelling. 63 % of

1:24:56

violent crimes in the United States

1:24:59

that were reported to police went

1:25:01

unsolved. 63%. Of violent

1:25:03

crimes. Of violent crimes. This

1:25:05

means in a single year,

1:25:07

there was no one arrested,

1:25:09

charged, and referred for prosecution

1:25:12

in over 800 ,000 violent

1:25:14

crimes that included an estimated

1:25:16

10 ,000 homicides, 525 ,000 aggravated

1:25:18

assaults, 169 ,000 robberies, and 98

1:25:20

,000 rapes. Oh, my God.

1:25:23

Meanwhile, states that have reallocated

1:25:25

funding and invested in not

1:25:27

only detectives, and I'm not

1:25:29

saying regular cops, I mean

1:25:31

like detectives, legitimate investigators, but

1:25:33

also invested in community involvement

1:25:36

and collaboration have all seen

1:25:38

better outcomes, not in just

1:25:40

solving violent crimes and cold

1:25:42

cases, but preventing these crimes

1:25:44

from happening in the first

1:25:46

place. So like we have

1:25:49

these bloated police budgets in

1:25:51

every state and the data shows

1:25:53

time and time again that

1:25:55

reallocating those budgets because cops really

1:25:57

don't need fucking tanks and

1:25:59

millions in weaponry and tactical gear

1:26:01

has reallocating those kinds of

1:26:03

resources has a very positive impact

1:26:05

on communities and on like

1:26:07

actual solve rates of crime as

1:26:09

well as crime prevention. So

1:26:11

when I just wanted to like.

1:26:13

focus on that for a

1:26:15

fucking second because i feel like

1:26:17

people really bulk and recoil

1:26:19

at the defund the police of

1:26:21

it all and we have

1:26:23

to remember that like the reallocation

1:26:25

of the of the budget

1:26:28

is the main part of what

1:26:30

that means those budgets don't

1:26:32

go up consistently without the outcomes

1:26:34

to back up the need

1:26:36

for that spending because or the

1:26:38

budgets go up sorry consistently

1:26:40

across the united states for police

1:26:42

every year because It

1:26:44

goes into a lot of unnecessary shit

1:26:46

that makes a cop on the

1:26:48

street like a militarized cool guy rather

1:26:50

than pouring it into community programs

1:26:53

that reduce crime and trained investigative teams

1:26:55

that actually solve cases and investing

1:26:57

in the kind of crime labs. Empirical

1:26:59

evidence showing that it does

1:27:01

work. Like crime labs, autopsy, coroner

1:27:03

reports. These are all part

1:27:06

of the justice system that need

1:27:08

funding because we need those

1:27:10

scientists. Those experts that can

1:27:12

look at a decomposed 27 year

1:27:14

old woman and tell us every

1:27:16

fucking possible thing we could possibly

1:27:18

learn to find their killer. I

1:27:20

was so energized after the crime

1:27:22

lab and after our hosts, our

1:27:24

tour guides kind of like gave

1:27:26

us a little like empowerment speech.

1:27:29

They were like, it's the cops

1:27:31

and the bureaucracy and the system

1:27:33

that is preventing us from doing

1:27:35

our job. It's like, you guys

1:27:37

are so fucking cool. You have

1:27:39

all the tools in the world.

1:27:41

They really do. And it's not

1:27:43

to say that there hasn't been

1:27:45

corruption at those levels as well.

1:27:47

Of There absolutely has. But it's

1:27:49

not to the level where people

1:27:52

are marching in the street calling

1:27:54

for the defunding of a coroner,

1:27:56

of their local coroner. Like, there's

1:27:58

a difference. Yes. And

1:28:00

I also think that when

1:28:02

you have these cold case

1:28:04

units, which are, of course,

1:28:06

Crucial, important. But in

1:28:08

a lot of respects, it's

1:28:10

allowing them to cherry pick

1:28:12

the cases that they want

1:28:14

to take and guess which

1:28:17

cases they're not fucking up.

1:28:19

Well, and those cold case

1:28:21

investigators are not even necessarily

1:28:23

part of a dedicated we

1:28:25

focus on cold cases team.

1:28:27

It's usually a task force.

1:28:29

It's not a department. So

1:28:31

it's a task force that

1:28:33

is already extending. the capacity

1:28:35

of investigators that are working on

1:28:37

active scenes that do have more

1:28:39

evidence. Again, it's

1:28:41

that like allocation of resources.

1:28:43

So these cold cases get the

1:28:45

back burner and like, I

1:28:48

get it, but why do we

1:28:50

have these multi -billion dollar police

1:28:52

budgets and we don't infuse

1:28:54

them into departments that could solve

1:28:56

more crimes? literally

1:28:58

raising your numbers that's not even

1:29:00

me saying like just get rid

1:29:02

of it get rid of all

1:29:04

of that it's like could we

1:29:06

actually infuse that with people who

1:29:09

know what the fuck they're doing

1:29:11

and have the proper training to

1:29:13

work with the scientists to work

1:29:15

with the the labs and like

1:29:17

keep these cases important alive yeah

1:29:19

it's just it makes me so

1:29:21

sad and you know numbers are

1:29:23

astounding in a year 98 000

1:29:25

rapes yep And that's only, those

1:29:27

are the 98 ,000 that went

1:29:29

unsolved that had been reported. Been

1:29:31

reported. So can you even fucking

1:29:33

imagine? I'm like, again. 10 ,000 homicides

1:29:35

in a year. In a year.

1:29:37

10 ,000 that had no, no

1:29:40

arrests at all. Jesus Christ. Yeah.

1:29:42

So it's very sad. It's very

1:29:44

frustrating. And, you know, you too

1:29:46

can get involved in your local

1:29:48

ACAB chapter and connect with like

1:29:50

minded people who want to push

1:29:52

for this kind of budget reallocation

1:29:55

on the state level. And that's

1:29:57

where getting involved in local politics

1:29:59

is so important because you can't

1:30:01

really change the like federal fucking

1:30:03

police and defense budget. That's a

1:30:05

much bigger. elephant to

1:30:07

eat one bite at a time but

1:30:09

you can get involved on a local

1:30:11

level where your city council and your

1:30:13

mayor are like working on those budgets

1:30:15

together you can get involved with your

1:30:17

governor a little bit louder when you

1:30:19

when there aren't that many other people

1:30:21

standing with you yeah i don't know

1:30:23

that's just like to think of not

1:30:25

just these women but like all of

1:30:27

these families that we have discussed where

1:30:29

the cases were called for fucking decades

1:30:32

And like you said earlier, thinking about

1:30:34

these people who, yes, they know their

1:30:36

children are now gone, but they don't

1:30:39

know why. They don't know who. They

1:30:41

don't know. Like, they don't know anything.

1:30:43

That's not fucking justice. You might be

1:30:45

able to finally say, OK, I don't

1:30:47

have to look for her anymore. Yeah.

1:30:49

But I don't know how much better

1:30:51

that is. And then you're just another

1:30:53

flavor of excruciating pain. And your cold

1:30:55

case task force is like barely working

1:30:57

on anything. And if these honestly, in

1:30:59

a lot of cases, if these families

1:31:02

aren't the ones advocating. for the continuation

1:31:04

of their children's case. Then no one

1:31:06

is. No one is. And

1:31:08

they get completely left in

1:31:10

the dust. And then when these

1:31:12

tech advancements and forensic advancements

1:31:14

do happen, no one is standing

1:31:16

there going, okay, check my

1:31:18

daughter's file. Check my daughter's evidence.

1:31:21

They just get lost. And

1:31:23

it's fucking devastating. Anyway,

1:31:26

end of the backlog. Not just of

1:31:28

rape kits, but like... shit. Everything. I

1:31:30

know. I know. Which is, I get

1:31:32

it. That's a big undertaking, but doesn't

1:31:34

mean we shouldn't try. It doesn't mean

1:31:36

we can't take one step toward that.

1:31:38

Correct. One single step toward that. Correct. It's

1:31:41

a huge mountain to climb. We'll