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Wine and crime contains graphic

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and explicit content which may

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not be suitable for some

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listeners. Listener discretion is advised. You

1:41

are listening to Wine and

1:43

Crime, the podcast were two

1:46

friends, chag wine, smoke sometimes

1:48

a lot, chat your crime

1:51

and unleash their worst Minnesota accents.

1:53

I am Amanda. I'm Lucy. I

1:55

was very heart- warmed. some of

1:58

the read it feedback about how

2:00

loopy we got in the fur

2:02

crimes episode. We did. We did.

2:04

It was nuts. I could barely

2:06

read. I'm gonna try not to

2:09

do that again today. It was

2:11

really fun. It was really fun.

2:13

So we're not gonna not go

2:15

down that avenue. Today's episode is

2:17

brought to you by us. This

2:20

is a gal's pick. You're welcome.

2:22

And by us, we mean Lucy.

2:24

Hey, sometime, listen, okay, I'll let

2:26

you in on something that I

2:28

probably let you in on before.

2:31

All right, let's get a peek

2:33

behind your beef curtain at night.

2:35

When I wake up at 3

2:37

a.m. and can't get back to

2:39

sleep because I'm looking at my

2:42

phone. Correct. Then I'll go, there's

2:44

full episodes of forensic files on

2:46

like Facebook videos. Yes. So I

2:48

just go in there and just

2:50

listen to multiple forensic files episodes

2:53

with my eyes closed and my

2:55

eye mask on until I drift

2:57

back to sleep. Because I feel

2:59

like it's more polite to my

3:02

sleeping partner to not fully turn

3:04

on the TV and have like

3:06

the light and everything. Incredible. Yeah,

3:08

so I come up with quite

3:10

a few of my episode topic

3:13

ideas. You do that avenue. You

3:15

do. And I feel blessed because

3:17

in searching for a case for...

3:19

Today's topic, which I'm about to

3:21

get to, I found a great

3:24

case that inspired another gals pick

3:26

that I'm submitting for down the

3:28

road. So I'm excited about that.

3:30

Everybody wins. We each have our

3:32

own method. We each have our

3:35

own method. We have our own

3:37

thing. But today's gals pick episode

3:39

is luminal, luminal, crimes solved, or

3:41

at least maybe taken to court.

3:43

But with the use of luminal

3:46

evidence. Yeah. This shit's fascinating. It

3:48

is. It is. and it is

3:50

heavily featured in forensic files, like

3:52

basically every episode. Overly. So yeah,

3:54

luminol, luminol crimes, and I've got

3:57

a little cocktail pairing for you

3:59

this week, because I did look

4:01

up luminol cocktails. That's where you

4:03

got to start. I got a

4:05

recipe for how to make luminol

4:08

with common household items, but I

4:10

skipped that because I wondered if

4:12

maybe you were going to include

4:14

something similar, but that exists. And

4:16

there's also a podcast with that

4:19

name, so that's fun. But the

4:21

few actual drinkable luminal cocktails that

4:23

I could find were predictably the

4:25

right blue. Oh, some curious, Al.

4:28

I couldn't do that to our

4:30

listeners, even though I'm not drinking

4:32

today because I'm smoking, but if

4:34

you want a very, very blue...

4:36

Painfully blue luminal cocktail. I promise

4:39

you it's out there. I'm just

4:41

not going to give you that

4:43

recipe today Instead I wanted to

4:45

share a cocktail recipe that I

4:47

feel fits the theme while also

4:50

sounding so fucking delicious So I

4:52

present to you today the lumiere.

4:54

Oh Lumiere hold up your little

4:56

candles Dancer of house! The side

4:58

with Cogsworth? And be my guest

5:01

or whatever. You are definitely the

5:03

lumière to my Cogsworth because I'm

5:05

much more the Cogsworth of this

5:07

duo. You are way cooler than

5:09

me. You did. We, we, you

5:12

did. And you have a mustache.

5:14

And I have a mustache. I

5:16

do, I do the first time

5:18

I got my mustache wax. It

5:20

changed something in my DNA. Okay,

5:23

so to make this cocktail, the

5:25

Lumier, you take one and a

5:27

half ounces of Hendricks' gin, three

5:29

quarter ounces of green chartreuse liqueur.

5:31

Okay. A half ounce of St.

5:34

Germain elderflower liqueur. Oh my god.

5:36

And three quarter ounces of fresh

5:38

squeezed lime juice and then top

5:40

it off with a dash of

5:42

orange bidders. You shake that in

5:45

your cocktail shaker, strain it into

5:47

a chilled cocktail glass, and then

5:49

lime wedge it and oh my,

5:51

oh my God. The chartreuse is

5:54

that that green aspect adds like

5:56

an herbal note. to the cocktail

5:58

the Hendrix has some of that

6:00

winter green winter green but also

6:02

i feel like Hendrix has more

6:05

of the cucumber aspect to it

6:07

and then of course you've got

6:09

the st germane the alderflowers just

6:11

that little hint of sweetness with

6:13

the lime juice so fucking good

6:16

it sounds amazing delicious i know

6:18

so i have two things to

6:20

say about this okay number one

6:22

i think a more accurate luminal

6:24

colored beverage would instead of Blue

6:27

Curacao or UV blue, of course.

6:29

Remember hypnotic? Oh, hypnotic? Yes. It

6:31

was like kind of milky blue?

6:33

Yes, that's much more of a

6:35

luminal, because, you know, the luminal

6:38

blue, it glows like that because

6:40

of black light. No. I thought

6:42

you shined a specific light on

6:44

it, and that's what makes it

6:46

glow. Oh, that's crazy. All right,

6:49

well, I clearly don't know shit

6:51

about luminal, so we should probably...

6:53

Oh, wait, my other comment though.

6:55

Oh, yes, what? So something that

6:57

I have always noticed when luminal

7:00

is mentioned in like forensic files,

7:02

someone will say, it lit up

7:04

like a Christmas tree. Jim, Christmas

7:06

tree? Hmm. So when you're talking

7:09

about cocktails, I was thinking, oh,

7:11

I hope it has gin. So

7:13

you light up light up like

7:15

a Christmas tree. Oh my god,

7:17

you are so good at finding

7:20

connections. The English major in me.

7:22

I can't believe it. I love

7:24

to find a through line. Please.

7:26

Please, if you make this at

7:28

home, tag us in a picture

7:31

of your cocktail because I want

7:33

to see how it turns out

7:35

and I want to get your

7:37

review because it sounds so good

7:39

and I'm going to make one

7:42

this weekend. So, please, please, please,

7:44

please, please tag us on the

7:46

socials in your Lumier for Lumenol

7:48

crimes and tell us how it

7:50

tastes it. Lumier. All right. I'm

7:53

half a Lumier. You are half

7:55

a Lumier. Well, this is the

7:57

perfect opportunity for you to get

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with it it's possible that to

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And we're back. Lucy, please tell

15:20

us your background, your psych. your

15:23

case, I'm assuming for Lou and

15:25

all crimes. Honestly, my segment is

15:27

becoming much less psych and more

15:29

just background and the case. Yeah,

15:31

which is fine. I'm gonna leave

15:34

the door open to psych whenever

15:36

psych is appropriate. If there's a

15:38

heavy amount of background and psych,

15:40

I will opt for that over

15:42

a case any day. If it's

15:45

important information. I trust your editorial

15:47

eye on this. Okay. And all

15:49

things. Well, I hope our listeners

15:51

do too. Trust me, like that

15:53

song in the jungle book with

15:56

the snake. Oh, trust in me.

15:58

Just in me. Ugh. There, that

16:00

soundtrack is, it fucking slaps. The

16:02

original jungle book soundtrack. It's like

16:04

jazzy. There's like scat. Bare necessities

16:07

as a banger. Oh my god.

16:09

Okay, so let's start by noting

16:11

that forensic science has been practiced

16:13

by humans for a long, long

16:15

time. I also think that like

16:18

bonobos kind of have an understanding

16:20

of forensics. That's amazing. Can't back

16:22

that up with anything, but I'm

16:24

just putting it out there into

16:26

the universe hoping that it's true.

16:29

I thought I saw it sometime

16:31

maybe on TikTok, so maybe that's

16:33

true. My friend Shea messaged me

16:35

the other day, like, oh my

16:38

God, I thought of you, I

16:40

saw this article that Narwal's have

16:42

returned to this like, Bay, they

16:44

lives in Seattle or whatever. Because

16:46

I thought of you, because I

16:49

know you love Narwal's, and he

16:51

was super high when he was,

16:53

and he was like, and he

16:55

was like, he was like, he

16:57

was like, he was like, he

17:00

was like, he was like, he

17:02

was, he was, he was, he

17:04

was, he was, he was, he

17:06

was, he was, he was, he

17:08

was, he was, he was, he

17:11

was, he was, he was, he

17:13

was, he was, he was, he

17:15

was, he was, he was, he

17:17

was, he was, he was, he

17:19

was, he was, he was, he

17:22

was, And I was like, oh

17:24

my God, this is amazing. I

17:26

fucking loved Darwalls. I love that

17:28

you thought of me when you

17:30

saw this fact. And then he

17:33

had like a full crash out

17:35

voice memo because he was super

17:37

high and went back to look

17:39

for the article and realize it

17:41

was an April Fool's joke. Oh,

17:44

what a stupid April Fool's. Oh,

17:46

I was so pissed. I was

17:48

like, the new season of Traders

17:50

cast. list has leaked. Oh, and

17:53

she was going through it and

17:55

I was like, yes, yes, one

17:57

of almost Judge Judy's. Stop. Joe,

17:59

see what? All right, well I

18:01

can do without that, but Judge

18:04

Judy would be iconic. Martha Stewart?

18:06

Oh, yeah. And then she's like,

18:08

and this, of course, is a

18:10

joke because it's April Fool's Day.

18:12

I was like, fuck, I was

18:15

about to send it to everyone

18:17

I know. Anyway, I am one

18:19

sentence in. Okay. Continue. So a

18:21

long time ago, people would be

18:23

like, oh, he was wet and

18:26

he was found near water. So

18:28

he drowned. Sure. And like, oh,

18:30

that body on the side of

18:32

the road looks beat to shit.

18:34

I bet he fell from his

18:37

horse and got dragged. It's got

18:39

a horse mark on it, a

18:41

hoofmark on it. He was stepped

18:43

on. Yeah. However. If anyone accused

18:45

someone else of doing the killing,

18:48

like the murdering, then that would

18:50

usually take precedence over any physical

18:52

evidence because then it was just

18:54

the simple act of torture to

18:56

coerce in a confession and then,

18:59

oh, it solved. So it wasn't

19:01

water tight. No. In the 12th

19:03

century, the Chinese were credited was

19:05

being the first to attempt to

19:07

define the difference between a natural

19:10

act and a criminal intent. Did

19:12

she fall off the balcony or

19:14

was she pushed? Yeah, okay, okay.

19:16

Sun-tuh had a book called The

19:19

Washing a Way of Wrong. Love

19:21

that. Drama queen, okay. I know,

19:23

they're so dramatic that had some

19:25

pretty interesting observations in it. So

19:27

one, drowning victims will have water

19:30

in their lungs. And number two,

19:32

if there's damage to the cartilage

19:34

of the neck, then the victim

19:36

was probably killed by strangulation. So

19:38

this to us today sounds like

19:41

really elementary, but because it's being

19:43

written down, this is the first

19:45

time it's being written down and

19:47

therefore codified. Yep. The book actually

19:49

became an official text for coroners

19:52

of the time. Wow. So they

19:54

implemented these ideas pretty much immediately

19:56

because, you know, duu. They were

19:58

sound. They made sense and they're

20:00

you know fairly easy for doctors

20:03

or investigators either conducting autopsy or

20:05

just reviewing autopsy to put those

20:07

pieces together. It's basic forensic science.

20:09

Yes. So Professor Matthew Orfila. an

20:11

expert of medicinal chemistry at the

20:14

University of Paris, and whom we've

20:16

discussed in three previous episodes. And

20:18

whose favorite cocktail is the Lumier,

20:20

I heard, on a TikTok. Word

20:22

on the street. Word on the

20:25

street is. So if you want

20:27

to hear more about Mathieu or

20:29

Fila, we've got him in forensic

20:31

firsts, poison crimes, and forensic toxicology.

20:34

Cool, okay. So he became known

20:36

as the father of toxicology in

20:38

1813 after he published... Tret de

20:40

Poisson. Le Poisson, le Poisson, he-he-he-he-ho-ho-ho,

20:42

well that's fish. Yep. I'm what

20:45

I'm trying to say is French

20:47

for poison. Sure. Book about poisons.

20:49

I love it. So he was

20:51

also the first to be credited

20:53

with attempting to use a microscope

20:56

to assess blood and semen stains.

20:58

Oh dang, cool. Yep. In the

21:00

19- or sorry, in the 1800s,

21:02

fingerprints and hair began to be

21:04

used as evidence for criminal investigations.

21:07

So all of this is to

21:09

say that today we stand on

21:11

the shoulders of those that were

21:13

staring at crusty seaman through shitty

21:15

microscopes. Back then you had to

21:18

taste it. Only way to know.

21:20

You got a roll around in

21:22

your tongue. And then this fish

21:24

lover guy came in and it

21:26

was like, I'm sick of licking

21:29

these stains. What if we had

21:31

a magic lens? What if we

21:33

could look at them and sit

21:35

a lick in them? The whole

21:37

world would change. It did. It

21:40

did. Thank you. You're welcome. You're

21:42

not thinking me. Oh, okay. Oh,

21:44

no. So all of this brings

21:46

us to luminal because luminal is

21:48

used far and wide in forensics

21:51

today. Oh, yeah. So what is

21:53

luminal? Silly. It's C8H7 and 302.

21:55

Idiot. How did you not know

21:57

that? Keep it simple. Stupid. Kiss.

22:00

It's a chemical compound that exhibits

22:03

chemoluminescence when mixed with an appropriate

22:05

oxidizing agent So it by itself

22:07

is a whitish like kind of

22:09

off white yellowish crystalline solid that

22:12

is soluble in most organic solvents,

22:14

but not water ironically. Okay, so

22:16

the compound itself think of it

22:18

like like salt basically and then

22:21

you have to mix it with

22:23

a certain liquid and then you

22:25

can spray it and then when

22:27

it reacts with an oxidizing agent,

22:30

it glows. Okay, so it glows

22:32

blueish on its own and they

22:34

have to turn the lights off

22:37

to see that glow and that's

22:39

probably why I always just assumed

22:41

it was black light. Yes, the

22:43

lights are just off. There's no

22:46

light. Interesting. They do a, they

22:48

pretty much have to do this

22:50

at night. Weird. Crepster. Crepsters. So

22:52

when we're applying luminal in a

22:55

forensic sense, the oxidizing agent would

22:57

be the iron in our blood

22:59

or the hemoglobin. So when you

23:01

spray it in a dark room,

23:04

it will glow, but the intensity

23:06

of the glow is based on

23:08

how much of the solution was

23:11

used, not the amount of blood.

23:13

Oh, okay. So if it's really

23:15

lightened up, it's because you dumped

23:17

a lot of luminal in there.

23:20

Yeah. Okay. So when you hear

23:22

the talking head on forensic files

23:24

say the scene lit up like

23:26

a Christmas tree, maybe they should

23:29

consider conserving their chemical resources a

23:31

little bit more. Dial it back.

23:33

Dial it back. Luminol was first

23:35

synthesized in Germany in 1902 as

23:38

part of an effort to develop

23:40

a tool to find bloodstains. But

23:42

it didn't get its cute little

23:45

name until 1934. But before that,

23:47

a German dude in 1928 named

23:49

H.O. Albrecht discovered that blood, as

23:51

well as some other things, but

23:54

I let's just have fun here

23:56

and think that he exclusively worked

23:58

with blood. So the blood enhanced

24:00

the luminescence of luminal when in

24:03

an alkaline solution of hydrogen peroxide.

24:05

In 1936, Carl Glue and Carl

24:07

Fanstiel, Mr. Glue and Mr. Fanstiel,

24:10

confirmed that it did glow more

24:12

in the presence of hematin, which

24:14

is a component of blood, and

24:16

also fresh potato juice. Oh. Okay.

24:19

It's not just blood and we'll

24:21

actually get back to this. Interesting

24:23

that potato juice is a thing.

24:25

There's like, well, I mean there's

24:28

iron in potatoes. Yeah, no for

24:30

sure. There's iron in a lot

24:32

of vegetables, so like vegetables in

24:34

particular can light up like a

24:37

Christmas tree. Yeah. And also I

24:39

really want to imagine a scenario

24:41

in which a defense lawyer argues

24:44

like that wasn't blood, they just

24:46

had a potato party the night

24:48

before. Well, it's kind of interesting

24:50

that you say that you say

24:53

that. Okay, excellent. It was not

24:55

potatoes, but horse radish. Yeah, well,

24:57

I have a whole list. So

24:59

according to a DOJ paper from

25:02

1990, in 1937, a totally normal,

25:04

not weird guy named Walter Sprecht,

25:06

quote, sprayed blood on bushes, stone

25:08

walls, rusty iron fences, furniture, After

25:11

allowing the blood to remain exposed

25:13

to the elements for 14 days,

25:15

sprayed a luminal reagent mixture onto

25:18

the blood and photographed the results.

25:20

He let it sit for two

25:22

weeks? He let it sit for

25:24

two weeks? He let it sit

25:27

for two weeks. But it rained.

25:29

It doesn't, that was part of

25:31

the experiment. So that it wouldn't

25:33

wash away every trace and it

25:36

would be kind of like if

25:38

someone had tried to clean a

25:40

crime scene or if a crime

25:42

scene was old? Yeah. I mean

25:45

he sprayed at all sorts of

25:47

different places repeatedly places repeatedly. So

25:49

there was all kinds of weather.

25:52

Okay. In 1939... the Americans joined

25:54

in, Patrick Proscher and A.M. Moody.

25:56

I am Moody. I am Moody.

25:58

It made three pretty important observations

26:01

about luminal. Number one, although the

26:03

test is presumptive, meaning that it

26:05

can indicate the possible presence of

26:07

blood, but further testing is needed

26:10

for confirmation. Large areas of suspected

26:12

material can be examined very quickly.

26:14

It doesn't take very long to

26:16

do this test. Dried and decomposed

26:19

blood actually gives a better reaction

26:21

than fresh blood. Oh, I wonder

26:23

if that's like the wetness. I

26:26

think so. I think it probably

26:28

has to do with the concentration

26:30

of that hemoglobin. And if the

26:32

luminescence disappears, you can just reapply

26:35

the luminal peroxide solution. You can

26:37

just spray it back on. Yeah.

26:39

Dried blood can be made to

26:41

glow repeatedly. With each application you'll

26:44

only get about 30 seconds worth

26:46

of glow. So that's why they're

26:48

spraying, snapping picks, no flash. No

26:51

flash. And then continuing to spray.

26:53

And maybe that's why a lot

26:55

of these crime scenes light up

26:57

like a Christmas tree because if

27:00

they're doing multiple layers, repeat layers

27:02

of luminol over and over again

27:04

that I would imagine that rewetting

27:06

some of the more dry chemical

27:09

compound would then activate it. You

27:11

know what I mean? So maybe

27:13

they're not just like... dumping buckets

27:15

of luminol because it only lasts,

27:18

you know, 30 seconds or so,

27:20

but spraying over and over and

27:22

over again to get these photos.

27:25

Well, I mean, you can only

27:27

do it a few times. It's

27:29

not going to work forever. So

27:31

I mentioned the potato juice, as

27:34

did you. And there are some

27:36

other things that can also react

27:38

with luminol, and this can be

27:40

a problem. So like I said,

27:43

anything with iron and copper containing

27:45

compounds will react. This includes, like

27:47

you said horse radish radish. Bleaches,

27:49

not all bleach, because as we

27:52

know, a lot of people try

27:54

to clean up crime scenes with

27:56

bleach and they can still find

27:59

the blood luminal. So certain bleaches.

28:01

cigarette smoke residue and poop. Yeah.

28:03

It could have, is it blood

28:05

or shit? That's a game a

28:08

lot of parents play every day.

28:10

Well, both are brown, can be

28:12

brown. The application of the luminol

28:14

may also prevent other tests from

28:17

being done on the evidence, which

28:19

at this point does not include

28:21

DNA necessarily. DNA has been successfully

28:23

extracted from samples that have had

28:26

luminal treatment. Okay. And a great

28:28

treat to us, the American consumer

28:30

in the year of our Lord

28:33

2025, Lumenol is quite affordable. And

28:35

if you purchase it online, kits

28:37

will run you between 12 and

28:39

40 bucks. You had a, we

28:42

both have had Lumenol kits. I

28:44

think we did a forensic files

28:46

event and they gave us like

28:48

a gift box that was like

28:51

a little forensic files cooler and

28:53

it had like sunglasses. What the

28:55

fuck? Where'd you get this? I

28:57

didn't get this. Yeah. We all

29:00

got them. Uh-uh. This was years

29:02

ago. From Wine and Crime? Yeah.

29:04

I did not get a luminal

29:07

kit. Well, I did not get

29:09

forensic files sunglasses. I did. It's

29:11

in here somewhere. Oh, right here.

29:13

What the fuck? I don't think

29:16

I still have a luminal kit,

29:18

but this cooler. Oh my. I

29:20

didn't get that at all. It's

29:22

got a little handprint on it.

29:25

It's got a beer bottle opener

29:27

on it. No. I'm calling that

29:29

girl from H. From H-L-N. That's

29:32

ridiculous. I got this forensic files

29:34

banner thing. Are you fucking kidding

29:36

me? I got... Was sent to

29:38

you in the mail? Forensic files

29:41

evidence bag, I think so. Well

29:43

now we know who favorite is.

29:45

Oh my god. I got... Oh

29:47

I have two evidence bag so

29:50

I can give you one. Well

29:52

mine obviously went... With yours, freeze-dried

29:54

gourmet popcorn or something, I might

29:56

be scared. Why is that in

29:59

your basement? It's in my office.

30:01

There's candy. Oh, there's multiple sets

30:03

of sunglasses. Let's see. UV wand?

30:06

I feel like you're opening this

30:08

for the first time. I think

30:10

maybe the second time. There it

30:12

is. Lumenol. Okay, bring that to

30:15

Lake Pepin. Yep. Bring all of

30:17

it to Lake Pepin. We will

30:19

come all over the house and

30:21

then see if this works. Also.

30:24

We'll spray Scott's room at the

30:26

end of the trip. Cooling cups.

30:28

Cooling wine glasses. Oh my God.

30:30

Yeah, I'll bring this whole thing.

30:33

We're gonna black light the shit

30:35

out of that out of that

30:37

B&B and B&B. Damn it. We

30:40

don't need a black light. Well,

30:42

I know, but you might need

30:44

a black light for other things.

30:46

Finding other stains. Anyway, yeah, I'll

30:49

bring this. We need a cooler

30:51

there anyway. For our lake days.

30:53

We sure do. So why not

30:55

bring this one? Maybe they just

30:58

sent it to me and I

31:00

was supposed to distribute things and

31:02

then I just never... I'm going

31:04

to assume that's what happened. That's

31:07

entirely possible. Otherwise I'm texting Susan

31:09

right now. All right. Okay. Leave

31:11

her right there. Gaze at her.

31:14

Hey, if I have to stare

31:16

at the like not one but

31:18

two terrifying baby dolls behind you

31:20

every episode, then you can get

31:23

a little... You can't even see

31:25

that one. She's hiding. You move

31:27

to laugh. all the time. And

31:29

then it's just like a jump

31:32

scare of Tress's face over your

31:34

fucking shoulder. Right now she's fallen

31:36

down, but she's not always lying

31:38

down. She has definitely been upright.

31:41

You can look at our videos.

31:43

They're on YouTube. I don't watch

31:45

them. So anyway, I live them.

31:48

That's enough. You can stare at

31:50

the coveted forensic files cooler. Fine.

31:52

Okay. I have a little bit

31:54

more background for us than a

31:57

deeply disturbing case. Great. So Lumenol

31:59

has a bit of a less

32:01

famous cousin, which I also got

32:03

the idea to include this from

32:06

a middle-of-the-night forensic files listening party.

32:08

Tylenol! Ninhydra! Oh, Tylenol. Luminol, Tylenol.

32:10

They sound like cousins. I thought

32:13

I thought lumenol sounded like a

32:15

bad marketing name, but it's not.

32:17

It's just what it's called. It's

32:19

not a proprietary thing. That's just

32:22

what it's the name of the

32:24

chemical name of it. Yeah, but

32:26

Ninhydrin, kind of sounds a little

32:28

mystical, but... What is it? First

32:31

synthesized in 1910 by Siegfried Ruoman,

32:33

he... Also saw that the substance

32:35

reacted, but this time with his

32:37

own skin, later determined to be

32:40

specifically with the amino acids on

32:42

his skin. So when the nenhydrin

32:44

touches his skin, it turns a

32:47

deep bluish purple that they later

32:49

named Ruman's Purple. Weird. So he

32:51

got his own color. Good for

32:53

him. This discovery. Was made seven

32:56

years before Helen was born. Jesus

32:58

Christ. Oh, as we record this,

33:00

it's the anniversary of the Titanic

33:02

sinking. Only five years before Alan

33:05

was born. And it's Helen's birthday.

33:07

Oh shit. Because we, yeah, holy

33:09

shit. We talked shit about her

33:11

on her birthday. I mean, I

33:14

wasn't talking shit. I was just

33:16

stating how iconic her age was.

33:18

Happy birthday, grandma. And he figured

33:21

out that it turned purple because

33:23

of the amino acids on his

33:25

skin. So, how do you think

33:28

this can be applied? I don't

33:30

know. So in the 1950s, a

33:33

couple of Swedes named Odin and

33:35

von Houston suggested that Ninhydrin could

33:37

be used in developing latent fingerprints.

33:40

Oh, hell yeah! Quote, as the

33:42

terminal... Amines of licein residues in

33:45

peptides and proteins sluffed off in

33:47

fingerprints react with the nenhydrin. Oh,

33:49

is as simple as that? Easy

33:52

as pay. Easy as pay. So

33:54

therefore, obviously, the substance could be

33:56

used to get fingerprints from porous

33:59

surfaces such as paper or wood

34:01

or fabric? Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's,

34:04

I mean, that's very important because

34:06

it's way harder to get fingerprints

34:08

off of porous surfaces. You're not

34:11

going to dust that shit and

34:13

use some Scotch tape to just

34:16

peel it off. No. Mm-hmm. So

34:18

there are some downsides. Ninhydrin has

34:20

issues with long-term stability unless it's

34:23

kept really, really cold. Okay. And

34:25

it can also like... sort of

34:28

kill you. And like long-term exposure,

34:30

it can cause allergic reactions such

34:32

as rhinitis, which is the inflammation

34:35

of the nasal lining, and asthma.

34:37

So a lot of like respiratory

34:39

issues for him inhaling it. Eucacy

34:42

tube inflaming. You're going to want

34:44

to use the good PPE for

34:47

handling that. Yes. And this is

34:49

mostly if it's like repeated exposure,

34:51

like if you're using it. regularly

34:54

in a lab or something. So

34:56

that's what I've got for us

34:59

on luminal. I didn't really tell

35:01

you how to make it. That's

35:03

okay. You can Google it or

35:06

you can just buy a kit.

35:08

It's not like a complex, it's

35:11

not like breaking bad. I mean...

35:13

I don't think you're cooking anything.

35:15

I think you're just mixing stuff

35:18

up. Yep. And yeah, it's very

35:20

accessible, you can just buy it

35:22

online. But if you

35:25

don't have store-bought, Homemade is fine.

35:27

Homemade works. So now we come

35:29

to my very disturbing case. Are

35:31

you ready? Yeah. Okay. In 1991,

35:33

Dennis and Ioni Huber were living

35:35

in Newport Beach, California with their

35:38

23-year-old daughter Denise. Denise had recently

35:40

graduated with a degree in social

35:42

sciences from the University of California,

35:44

Irvine, and continued to live at

35:46

home with her parents while working

35:48

as a server. at the local

35:51

old spaghetti factory. Hell yeah! I

35:53

also read that she was Also

35:55

part-time sales associate at Bloomingdale's. I

35:57

miss Bloomingdale's. Me too. A Bloomingdale's

35:59

in Newport Beach in the early

36:01

90s? Are you fucking kidding me?

36:04

It's heaven. That's heaven. I know.

36:06

A Bloomingdale's in Newport Beach in

36:08

the early 90s. Yep. Well, some

36:10

yearn for the mines. I yearn

36:12

for a Bloomingdale's in Newport Beach

36:15

in the early 90s. Well, her

36:17

luck didn't last for very long.

36:19

I kind of fucking figured. Denise

36:21

had a bunch of friends and

36:23

on the evening of June 2nd,

36:25

she was supposed to go with

36:28

like her pseudo boyfriend, but he

36:30

couldn't go at the last minute.

36:32

So she went with her work

36:34

friend Rob to Englewood for a

36:36

Morrissey concert. Okay. When her parents

36:38

woke up on June 3rd, Denise's

36:41

bed was empty, but they weren't

36:43

too alarmed because she's 23 years

36:45

old, you know. She had a

36:47

lot of friends, she probably slept

36:49

over at one of their houses.

36:51

Sure. But then when they got

36:54

back home that evening, the bed

36:56

was still empty, so they really

36:58

began to worry. They did not

37:00

know where she was. Okay. So

37:02

they began calling around to Denise's

37:04

friend, friends, including Rob, the guy

37:07

she went to the concert with,

37:09

and who claimed that afterwards, they

37:11

stopped for a couple drinks at

37:13

a bar, like a Mexican restaurant

37:15

bar, and then she had dropped

37:18

him off at home at about

37:20

2 a 2 AM at 2

37:22

AM. None of her other friends

37:24

or no one else had any

37:26

answers as to where Denise had

37:28

gone. Okay. Finally, Denise's friend Debbie

37:31

decided to, like, retrace her steps.

37:33

She drove to the venue, drove

37:35

to the bar, drove to Robs,

37:37

and then back to the Huber

37:39

House in order to try to

37:41

figure out, like, see if she

37:44

was anywhere, if there was any

37:46

sign of her. Yeah. There was

37:48

a pair of panny hose on

37:50

the front driver's seat and her

37:52

keys, purse, and Denise were nowhere

37:54

to be found. Oh God. They

37:57

also didn't find like her shoes.

37:59

They just noted that it looked

38:01

like she had gotten out of

38:03

her car. Oh and the the

38:05

hazards were on Weird. Okay, but

38:08

she had gotten out of her

38:10

car like taking her stuff Yes,

38:12

or her stuff was taken So

38:14

the cops brought out helicopters are

38:16

looking for her They have canine

38:18

units which tracked her sent about

38:21

75 yards away before disappearing so

38:23

that none of this was helping

38:25

none of the leads were panning

38:27

out It was also getting a

38:29

lot of media attention because this

38:31

is very much missing white woman

38:34

syndrome. Because Denise, God bless her,

38:36

she is stunningly beautiful. There's pictures

38:38

of her on the drive. But

38:40

I'm sure. Like a Gabby potato

38:42

situation, like this grabbed everybody's attention.

38:44

Yeah. And it's in Newport Beach.

38:47

So it's just like, you know,

38:49

very wealthy, very white neighborhood. So

38:51

Rob's story remained consistent and he

38:53

also passed a polygraph test so

38:55

they like kind of let him

38:58

go as a suspect. Investigators also

39:00

questioned Steve who was like her

39:02

friend but kind of the romantic

39:04

partner that she who was supposed

39:06

to go with her to the

39:08

Morrissey show, but he couldn't go

39:11

at the last minute. Okay. His

39:13

alibi also proved to be rock

39:15

solid. So the cops were like,

39:17

well, it was neither of these

39:19

two guys who would have had

39:21

you know, a motive and a

39:24

statistical likelihood of doing something, but

39:26

they don't, they didn't think that

39:28

either of them did it. So

39:30

they started to think that she

39:32

had been abducted, but they had

39:34

nothing to go on. So eventually

39:37

her case went cold. Her parents

39:39

were devastated and her dad Dennis

39:41

said, quote, we were basically incapacitated.

39:43

I could not do anything. I

39:45

was so grief-stricken and worried that

39:47

at that point I thought I

39:50

could not go any lower. Unfortunately,

39:52

it would be three more years

39:54

before her parents got any answers.

39:56

In July of 1994, two angels,

39:58

which to some may have been

40:01

like nosy narks, but in this

40:03

situation, they were angels. It worked

40:05

out. It worked out. Two angels

40:07

come into the picture. Retirees. Jack

40:09

and Elaine Court moved to Prescott

40:11

Valley, Arizona, which is 350 miles

40:14

away from Newport Beach, in the

40:16

1990s to settle down. Several days

40:18

if you're walking. Several days. Weeks,

40:20

probably, if you're me. Well, I

40:22

could have googled it and I

40:24

didn't. That's fine. So they moved

40:27

to Arizona in the 90s to

40:29

settle down and began selling paint

40:31

sundries at the local swap meat.

40:33

Oh my God, cute. In July

40:35

of 1994, they met a newcomer

40:37

to the flea market scene, a

40:40

33-year-old man named John, who said

40:42

that he was also in the

40:44

paint-related item business, paint sundry's business.

40:46

So thinking that this John fella

40:48

may have inventory that they could

40:51

sell as part of their business,

40:53

Jack and Elaine accepted John's invitation

40:55

to pick up some product from

40:57

his house. So when they got

40:59

there, they noticed something rather suspicious,

41:01

a rider moving truck with California

41:04

plates parked in his backyard, and

41:06

it looked like it had been

41:08

abandoned because it had a bunch

41:10

of weeds and shit growing up

41:12

around the tires. So they were

41:14

like, that's weird because it's a

41:17

rental truck and it's been there

41:19

for a while. Yeah. It's odd.

41:21

And John had also told them

41:23

that he had just moved to

41:25

the area around six months ago,

41:27

which isn't... long enough for all

41:30

those weeds to be growing? Well,

41:32

maybe it is, but... Well, either

41:34

way, it felt very suspicious. Yeah,

41:36

you return a rental truck. And

41:38

I also want to note that

41:41

his mother lives right next door

41:43

to him. Red flag. Red flag,

41:45

but also could be why the

41:47

truck may or may not have

41:49

been there for longer than he

41:51

had actually lived there. Got it.

41:54

Okay. I also... There are not

41:56

very many sources about this case

41:58

that I could find that aren't

42:00

like straight up court... documents and

42:02

the few articles that I did

42:04

find that were more cohesive, a

42:07

lot of them had very different

42:09

information. Okay. So there's a lot

42:11

going on and I can't confirm

42:13

100% how much is like super

42:15

duper accurate. Fair enough. Nothing else

42:17

about the visit was alarming but

42:20

Jack and Elaine decided to write

42:22

down the license plate info from

42:24

the truck just in case it

42:26

had been stolen and they just

42:28

wanted to know if they were

42:31

dealing with a fishy character here.

42:33

Good for them. They wonder who

42:35

they're buying their paint sundries from.

42:37

Yeah, keep it on the up

42:39

and up. So not too long

42:41

after they pass along the info

42:44

to a deputy. who had stopped

42:46

by their flea market booth for

42:48

some painting supplies. This is the

42:50

most small town shit I know

42:52

I know but like the way

42:54

this all went down I mean

42:57

we'll get to it but I

42:59

think that if they hadn't done

43:01

what they did. Yeah it's one

43:03

of those things where it's like

43:05

a string of coincidences will just

43:07

lead to an answer and it

43:10

does happen. Yeah a cold case.

43:12

So. I think that they had

43:14

this guy come up and we're

43:16

making small talk and he's like,

43:18

oh, I'm a I'm a deputy

43:20

police officer and they're like, will

43:23

you run this plate for us?

43:25

And he was like, sure, strand

43:27

of strangers? So he did. Jesus.

43:29

He ran the info and the

43:31

truck did in fact come back

43:34

as having been reported stolen six

43:36

months ago from California. Yep. The

43:38

deputy then went to John's house.

43:40

No one was home. But he

43:42

was poking around as they do.

43:44

sees the truck. Well he definitely

43:47

saw the truck. Yeah. He also

43:49

saw a number of things that

43:51

alarmed him. There were chemicals sitting

43:53

outside the truck and the truck

43:55

had an extension cord leading from

43:57

the back of it into I

44:00

believe either an outlet on the

44:02

side of his house or like

44:04

into his garage. It was plugged

44:06

in. Oh, something in the truck

44:08

was plugged in. No. And like

44:10

running. No, I know what it

44:13

is. What is it? It's gotta

44:15

be a freezer freezer. Yeah, okay.

44:17

So he thought that whoever stole

44:19

the truck may have been using

44:21

it as a drug lab. Sure.

44:24

Because it could have been lights,

44:26

it could have been a grow

44:28

lab, you know, it could have

44:30

been a lot of things. Yeah,

44:32

that extension cord could be connected

44:34

to anything. That's a totally normal

44:37

thing to assume. So his first

44:39

move was to call the narcotics

44:41

team because he assumed that it

44:43

had something to do with drugs.

44:45

Okay. And there's those chemicals outside

44:47

of the truck like the chemicals.

44:50

Yeah. The narcotics team got a

44:52

warrant and within an hour there

44:54

back at the back at the

44:56

back at the house. So they're

44:58

looking at the truck and in

45:00

the back of the truck was

45:03

indeed a deep freezer with a

45:05

padlock on it. No! Again, assuming

45:07

there were drugs inside, they opened

45:09

it to find a bunch of

45:11

plastic bags covering a large plastic

45:14

bag with a very bad odor

45:16

emanating from it. God damn it.

45:18

Sheriff Scott Mascher said, quote, when

45:20

we cut the plastic bag open

45:22

and peeled it back, I could

45:24

see an arm. And as we

45:27

began to open the bag more,

45:29

it appeared to be a young

45:31

adult female. No. No. Oh, it's

45:33

so rough. I'm warning you. The

45:35

victim was found frozen, like in

45:37

fetal position, basically on her knees

45:40

with her head bent down and

45:42

her arms handcuffed behind her back.

45:44

Oh my God. Cloth had been

45:46

stuffed in her mouth, which was

45:48

duct-taped closed, and she had a

45:50

plastic bag over her head. I

45:53

think that's where they left it

45:55

before they sent it to the

45:57

medical examiner. It was a gruesome

45:59

scene, which was in the middle

46:01

of being processed when, look who

46:03

comes home. It's John, who is

46:06

actually John Joseph Famillaro. Jingleheimer Schmidt.

46:08

Yeah, he is behaving cool as

46:10

a cucumber. He is not freaking

46:12

out at all. The cops are

46:14

like, don't you think this is

46:17

odd? Yeah. And so he's just

46:19

like being really fucking casual about

46:21

it. It's very weird. So they

46:23

brought him into the station for

46:25

questioning where he was again strangely

46:27

cool. until they began asking him

46:30

about the freezer, at which point

46:32

he responded, I have nothing else

46:34

to say, and requested an attorney.

46:36

Oh. Nevertheless, he was arrested for

46:38

murder and also for the theft

46:40

of the truck. Yeah. So he's

46:43

in custody at this point. So

46:45

like I said, the body went

46:47

to the medical examiners for identification.

46:49

In the meantime, investigators searched Famillaro's

46:51

home. What they found was... far

46:53

outside the ordinary. There were various

46:56

weapons strewn about and in the

46:58

basement they found a blood-stained hammer

47:00

and dried tissue. Oh, and this

47:02

was three years later? Yeah. Oh,

47:04

God. They also, at some point,

47:07

I don't know where they found

47:09

it, they found a staple gun?

47:11

No. Police also found women's clothing,

47:13

purses. No. And Social security cards?

47:15

Which when examined together pointed to

47:17

a disturbing conclusion that there were

47:20

more than one victim. Oh my

47:22

god, he's a serial killer. Denise

47:24

got picked up by a fucking

47:26

serial killer. Then came the most

47:28

horrifying discovery in Famillaro's house. At

47:30

the back of the basement, he

47:33

had dug out a hidden underground

47:35

room. No. Fearing that more bodies

47:37

may have been buried in the

47:39

secret room, authorities brought in cadaver

47:41

dogs, but they did not find

47:43

any other victims in that room,

47:46

which I took to be like,

47:48

he was in the process of

47:50

digging out a room. Right. With

47:52

intention to fill it. Yeah. Especially

47:54

if you'd only been in the

47:57

house for six months. Yeah. And

47:59

you can't have your fridge stay

48:01

in the truck the whole time.

48:03

Yeah. As police started reaching out

48:05

to other agencies to try and

48:07

piece together a picture of who

48:10

this guy was and how many

48:12

victims he may have, because again,

48:14

they're currently in Arizona. The victim

48:16

is not identified yet. Right. She

48:18

was in California. Uh-huh. So Tip's

48:20

start coming in. One woman said

48:23

she had met Famalaro in Phoenix,

48:25

Arizona, and that he abducted her

48:27

and taken her out to the

48:29

middle of the desert where he

48:31

tried to strangle her. Oh, God,

48:33

but she got away. He fought

48:36

him off and was forced to

48:38

run naked through the desert to

48:40

safety. She never reported the crime,

48:42

but she was able to immediately

48:44

identify Famalaro in a photo lineup.

48:47

Yeah. Other victims reported that Familaro

48:49

had handcuffed them to beds without

48:51

their consent. No. They got a

48:53

hold of one of his ex-girlfriends

48:55

and she gave a report to

48:57

the effect of he likes to

49:00

use handcuffs in the bedroom and

49:02

he would often make me get

49:04

naked and handcuff me and leave

49:06

me exposed like next to an

49:08

open window for like long periods

49:10

of time. Oh no. Yeah. Yeah.

49:13

Yeah. So this is very serial

49:15

killery. Yeah. So finally they connected

49:17

with the cops in Newport Beach

49:19

who told them about Denise Huber

49:21

and the connection was made. Denise

49:23

was the young woman in the

49:26

freezer. Oh my God. Another quote

49:28

from her dad quote, I have

49:30

never felt worse in my life.

49:32

It's indescribable. It's the worst thing

49:34

that can happen to you. Okay,

49:36

I'm not sure when this happened

49:39

in the timeline, but like I

49:41

said, his mother's house was right

49:43

next door. So they also searched

49:45

his mother's house, who claimed to

49:47

have no idea what's going on.

49:50

I don't know, John doesn't even

49:52

have girlfriends. In either in her

49:54

basement or in her garage, they

49:56

found a box labeled Christmas. Another

49:58

tied to the Christmas tree thing.

50:00

In the box, they found Denise's

50:03

bloody clothing, which were scuffed. to

50:05

the degree that that's kind of

50:07

consistent with being dragged fighting on

50:09

a highway road. Oh my God.

50:11

Oh my God. In John's basement,

50:13

they found a police uniform. No.

50:16

Oh, yuck. And he had metal

50:18

handcuffs. He had handcuffs. Yeah. Susan

50:20

personating an officer to gain trust.

50:22

We don't know that for sure,

50:24

but it is. Seems logical. Pretty

50:26

likely, yes. Here comes the worst

50:29

part. Trigger warning. It's violent and

50:31

graphic. An autopsy revealed that Denise

50:33

had been sexually assaulted and that

50:35

she died from blunt force trauma

50:37

to the skull after being struck

50:40

more than 30 times in the

50:42

head by what was likely a

50:44

hammer possibly the one that was

50:46

found in the house. Oh my

50:48

god. Her skull was destroyed. They

50:50

have goosebumps. They interview the medical

50:53

examiners in the forensic files episode

50:55

that's based on this. Yeah. And

50:57

she said when they took off

50:59

the plastic bag. it was just

51:01

pieces. And she had to get

51:03

another, like, someone who was in

51:06

like forensic anthropology to reassemble the

51:08

skull. So they could even determine

51:10

how many hits she'd taken. Yeah.

51:12

Oh. So the first step was

51:14

to piece it back together. Oh

51:16

my God. And she was describing

51:19

having to start at the top

51:21

and work her way down because

51:23

your head and face bones get

51:25

smaller, the more down and front

51:27

forward you go. Oh. and they

51:30

found indentations that had plastic from

51:32

the bag between like in there

51:34

so they knew that for at

51:36

least some of the blows the

51:38

plastic bag was already over her

51:40

head oh my god and some

51:43

of the dense were consistent with

51:45

that nail gun oh my god

51:47

oh it's sick it's so sick

51:49

so At the time of Denise's

51:51

disappearance, Falamaro turns out had been

51:53

running a paint business in a

51:56

warehouse. that was in Orange County,

51:58

not far from where Denise's car

52:00

had been found abandoned. It was

52:02

just like a few miles away.

52:04

When police went to search the

52:06

warehouse, they found a room in

52:09

the back, because guy loved his

52:11

secret fucking rooms. They sprayed the

52:13

walls with luminal, which revealed that

52:15

they had been covered in blood,

52:17

because none of this was visible.

52:19

It had been washed away, but

52:22

they sprayed it with luminal and

52:24

they could see there was a

52:26

lot of blood. Further testing showed

52:28

the blood to be from both

52:30

Denise and Fallaro. I don't know

52:33

how his blood got there, but...

52:35

Hopefully she took some chunks out

52:37

of him in the struggle. I

52:39

hope so. Police believed that he

52:41

had been out hunting for victims

52:43

when he came across Denise trying

52:46

to fix a flat tire because

52:48

they did examine the tire and

52:50

it was like legitimately flat. It

52:52

wasn't slashed or anything. Yeah, not

52:54

like sabotage. She was in the

52:56

wrong place at the wrong time.

52:59

And he happened to drive by.

53:01

and see this girl change in

53:03

her tire at two in the

53:05

morning. You offer your assistance. He

53:07

then struck her with a hammer,

53:09

dragged her back to his car,

53:12

handcuffed her, and took her back

53:14

to his warehouse where he raped

53:16

and killed her. Oh my God.

53:18

It's likely he held on to

53:20

her body with the intention of

53:23

burying it along with the evidence

53:25

that he kept at his mother's

53:27

house in Arizona. In 1994, Famalaro

53:29

stood trial for Denise's murder after

53:31

pleading not guilty, okay? Yeah, good

53:33

luck. He was convicted of murder

53:36

and kidnapping and sentenced to death

53:38

in 1997. He is currently awaiting

53:40

his execution in San Quentin in

53:42

California. Holy shit. So the Forensic

53:44

Files episode is called Frozen in

53:46

Time. I know. Sorry Ray is

53:49

trying to kiss Lucy's face while

53:51

she tells this horrific story. He's

53:53

so gentle. I know it was

53:55

really cute but this is not

53:57

a good time for this Ray.

53:59

I know. So the Forensic Files

54:02

episode is called Frozen in Time

54:04

and there's also a book called

54:06

Cold Storage by Dan Lassiter. Here's

54:08

where I, this is, I think

54:10

I might need to read the

54:13

book because I was disappointed at

54:15

how little information they have about

54:17

the other IDs from these other

54:19

women that they found. Yeah, because

54:21

it's giving big serial killer energy.

54:23

Yeah, oh yeah. So I found

54:26

a red thread with a bunch

54:28

of conspiracy theories about this guy

54:30

too, but nothing is concrete. 30

54:32

times in the head. I don't

54:34

believe it. And the handcuffs? No.

54:36

And all the escalation, the woman

54:39

he tried to kill in the

54:41

desert who got away? Yeah. And

54:43

the fact that he had killed

54:45

this woman three years ago, maybe

54:47

it took him so long, maybe

54:49

he wanted to like bury her

54:52

in some special way as like

54:54

his first victim. And that's why

54:56

she was discovered, but like, I

54:58

find it very hard to believe

55:00

that. Is he dead or is

55:03

he still alive? He's still alive.

55:05

Oh, he's not dead yet. I

55:07

have some pictures on the drive,

55:09

which include. Oh, there's kind of

55:11

a cool before and after. This

55:13

isn't from the case. This is

55:16

from a different case. But there's

55:18

a before and after luminal spraying

55:20

pictures. So that kind of shows.

55:22

That was from a. Yeah, that

55:24

was from a dismemberment thing in

55:26

Ireland. I saw I saw that

55:29

I almost covered that actually, but

55:31

that I couldn't find enough information

55:33

Yeah, that's the door and then

55:35

this creep-ass guy in his creep-ass

55:37

glasses with his disgusting eyebrows Yeah,

55:39

he's really gross and I'm at

55:42

freezer. It's like an industrial-sized freezer.

55:44

I hate him. I hate him

55:46

so much I love this photo

55:48

of Denise wearing a hat. Okay,

55:50

she's in New Orleans, which is

55:52

what the N-O stands for, but

55:55

her hat just says no really

55:57

big. Yeah, it's perfect. And I'm

55:59

a big fan. Anyway, RIP Denise.

56:01

That is brutal. So brutal. Well,

56:03

great. Should we? take a quick

56:06

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she'll be a woman soon. And

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56:40

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that if someone had helixed me

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health today. You deserve quality care

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from someone who cares. Okay, so

1:03:49

as Lucy has made abundantly clear

1:03:51

with her segment, you just can't

1:03:53

tack luminal without tacking forensic files.

1:03:56

No, you can't. You sure can't.

1:03:58

So today, I am revisiting the

1:04:00

episode Where the Blood Drops. And

1:04:02

this is the story of car

1:04:05

dealer Bill Maubre's sudden death and

1:04:07

the subsequent trial of his wife,

1:04:09

Susie. I think maybe Mowbray. It's

1:04:11

got a W. Yeah. Either way,

1:04:14

you don't mow the lawn. That's

1:04:16

very fair. That's very fair. I'll

1:04:18

stop being this annoying. Nope, no,

1:04:20

that's, mow, it is. She's a

1:04:23

little bit of a roller coaster

1:04:25

of twists and turns and seemingly

1:04:27

clear evidence unravels and the truth

1:04:29

is still like out there. I'm

1:04:32

curious to know where you're going

1:04:34

to fall at the end of

1:04:36

this. So I'm going to try

1:04:38

not to put my personal thoughts

1:04:41

as much into it because I

1:04:43

want to know what you think

1:04:45

at the end. So I'm going

1:04:47

to try to remain objective and

1:04:50

stick to the facts. Okay. We're

1:04:52

going to be focusing on that,

1:04:54

the shifts in the evidence, the

1:04:56

shifts in the narrative, and of

1:04:59

course, the critical role of luminal

1:05:01

evidence. So Susie Mober, whose main

1:05:03

name was Frida Sue Burnett. I

1:05:05

like that. Was born in Louisiana

1:05:08

around 1948 and grew up in

1:05:10

Shreveport. She was a classic southern

1:05:12

male debutant who was a cheerleader,

1:05:15

she was homecoming queen, and before

1:05:17

meeting Bill Mowray, Susie had been

1:05:19

married and divorced and had two

1:05:21

children named Cricket and Wade. I

1:05:24

know a girl, Cricket. Frankly, I

1:05:26

love the name cricket. I know

1:05:28

it's probably like ruined by, it's

1:05:30

always sunny in Philadelphia, but I

1:05:33

don't care, I love it. That's

1:05:35

a boy cricket, isn't it? That

1:05:37

is a definitely a boy cricket.

1:05:39

So, the details of how they

1:05:42

met are not clear and also

1:05:44

don't really matter. They met in

1:05:46

like the early 80s, they got

1:05:48

married, the rest is history. Okay,

1:05:51

so she married Bill Mober and

1:05:53

became kind of a local celebrity

1:05:55

alongside him. We'll get to why.

1:05:57

he's a celebrity because she was

1:06:00

starring in local TV commercials for

1:06:02

his car dealership and earned her

1:06:04

she was and it earned her

1:06:06

the local reputation as a queen

1:06:09

and a pitch woman in the

1:06:11

1980s. Oh Queen Pitchwoman. Queen Pitchwoman

1:06:13

Freida Sue Mowbray. Okay. You can

1:06:15

call me Susie. So Jay William

1:06:18

Bill Mowbray Jr. was born on

1:06:20

April 2nd in Washington DC. He

1:06:22

came from a family with a

1:06:24

history in the automobile business as

1:06:27

both his grandfather and father worked

1:06:29

in the industry. So he's a

1:06:31

car nepo baby. By the age

1:06:34

of 25 in 1969, Bill Mowbray

1:06:36

had achieved significant success becoming the

1:06:38

youngest Cadillac dealer in the world.

1:06:40

According to the Texas Brownsville Herald,

1:06:43

where he ended up moving. He

1:06:45

continued to expand his business and

1:06:47

in 1974 he debuted a new

1:06:49

five-acre Cadillac dealership in Brownsville, Texas.

1:06:52

Damn. And this gathered him considerable

1:06:54

local publicity. It opened with great

1:06:56

fanfare. I think of this guy

1:06:58

as like the Chris Lindahl of

1:07:01

cars. And if you live in

1:07:03

Minneapolis, you know exactly who the

1:07:05

fuck Chris Lindahl is and his

1:07:07

fucking billboard arm-spreading campaign. God, what

1:07:10

is with that? There's one every

1:07:12

six miles, I swear to God.

1:07:14

Like up 35? It's a bit

1:07:16

much. We're all sick of it.

1:07:19

Too much. Yeah. We're also like,

1:07:21

but I imagine that's the kind

1:07:23

of like local fame that he

1:07:25

was getting from all the ads

1:07:28

in this huge car dealership opening

1:07:30

and he's you know was the

1:07:32

youngest Cadillac dealer in the world

1:07:34

and now he's settled in Brownsville

1:07:37

Texas to open his biggest dealership

1:07:39

yet. I've told you that the

1:07:41

main car dealer in Cedar Falls

1:07:44

Iowa is dick with him. I

1:07:46

won't dick with you but I'm

1:07:48

dick with him. And you can

1:07:50

trust me. to sell you a

1:07:53

quality vehicle. For a great price,

1:07:55

but I haven't dicked with. Incredible.

1:07:57

The Brownsville Herald even dedicated a

1:07:59

full page to the grand opening

1:08:02

of Bill Mowbray Motors. Bill Mowbray

1:08:04

Motors. Highlighting its quote, very fine

1:08:06

selection of pre-owned autos and the

1:08:08

assurance of a perfect auto finish

1:08:11

provided by its dust-proof booths and

1:08:13

dryen chambers. Wow. At this time

1:08:15

his dealership had 45 employees. And

1:08:17

like, this was a big deal.

1:08:20

It was like on the news.

1:08:22

Former news anchor Kerry Zayas recalled

1:08:24

that during this period, anyone in

1:08:26

the area who drove a Cadillac

1:08:29

likely purchased it from Bill Mowbray

1:08:31

Motors. And Bill's trusted assistant, Luke

1:08:33

Fruia, or Foyer, Fruia, eventually took

1:08:35

over the business so that he

1:08:38

could just, you know, own it

1:08:40

and take the money, get that

1:08:42

mailbox money, but not have to

1:08:44

run it. Like Susie, Bill was

1:08:47

also divorced. He'd had a daughter

1:08:49

in a previous marriage. Her name

1:08:51

is Kristen Mobre. And so when

1:08:53

Susie and Bill met, they married

1:08:56

and they kind of blended their

1:08:58

families. They lived a seemingly very

1:09:00

happy life. They're basking in the

1:09:03

glow of Cadillac success. In September

1:09:05

of 1987, great month for the

1:09:07

world because I was born. Not

1:09:09

so great months for the Mobres,

1:09:12

though. So great for the economy

1:09:14

either. I'm pretty sure you've had

1:09:16

a recession. Hey! Shh! Shh! Shh!

1:09:18

Ninety-seven. The peaceful town of Brownsville,

1:09:21

Texas was rocked by a 911

1:09:23

call from Susie Mowbray. She reported

1:09:25

that her husband Bill, the respective

1:09:27

Cadillac dealer, had shot himself in

1:09:30

their bed. In their bed. Don't

1:09:32

do it in the bed. I

1:09:34

know. Upon arrival, paramedics found a

1:09:36

gruesome scene. Bill Mober in bed

1:09:39

with a gunshot wound to the

1:09:41

head, a powerful, powerful handgun, lying

1:09:43

in blood beside him, former assistant

1:09:45

district attorney. Alhagan noted the significant

1:09:48

blood spatter on the ceiling, the

1:09:50

ceiling fan, the pooling on the

1:09:52

bed, and despite the severity of

1:09:54

his injuries, when they arrived, Bill

1:09:57

was still alive. He was still

1:09:59

breathing. He did later die at

1:10:01

the hospital. His injuries were just

1:10:03

way too severe, way too severe.

1:10:06

Shot in the head, right? Yep.

1:10:08

Initially, investigators considered suicide, especially given

1:10:10

that the that close associates of

1:10:13

Bill were aware of at least

1:10:15

one previous attempt at suicide by

1:10:17

Bill, this same journalist who had

1:10:19

reported about the Cadillac. dealership also

1:10:22

said that Susie portrayed Bill as

1:10:24

having unresolved emotional issues and was

1:10:26

facing significant financial problems. According to

1:10:28

business manager Sergio Hernandez, the Cadillac

1:10:31

dealership was operating at a loss

1:10:33

and Bill himself was heavily in

1:10:35

debt. Kerry Zias also noted that

1:10:37

Bill had taken out two loans

1:10:40

on the same inventory and Susie's

1:10:42

lawyer Jim Shaw recounted on forensic

1:10:44

files how Bill had even cried

1:10:46

and threatened suicide at a bank

1:10:49

if he didn't get a loan.

1:10:51

Oh, Bill. Yeah, so he was

1:10:53

not in a good way. No.

1:10:55

However, the narrative took a sharp

1:10:58

turn just one day after witnessing

1:11:00

her husband's death, Susie held a

1:11:02

painting party in the very bedroom

1:11:04

where it occurred. What? Wait, what?

1:11:07

The next day? Yep. Bill's daughter

1:11:09

and I believe one of, Susie's

1:11:11

sons or her stepbrother, discovered the

1:11:13

gathering with music playing. While Susie's

1:11:16

friend Sarah Bush explained that Susie

1:11:18

merely wanted to remove the bloodsains

1:11:20

before her children returned home, this

1:11:22

action raised immediate suspicion. Oh my

1:11:25

god, wall painting. I was picturing

1:11:27

like a sippance and paint? Like,

1:11:29

yeah. No, painting the wall. over

1:11:32

the blood. Okay but I don't

1:11:34

know which is more disturbing. Correct.

1:11:36

Who? Like her friends? Yeah she

1:11:38

asked her friends to come over

1:11:41

and help her paint and then

1:11:43

the kids came home. Hire it

1:11:45

out. Hire it out. Came home

1:11:47

and heard like music coming from

1:11:50

the bedroom and were like what

1:11:52

the fuck and went in there

1:11:54

and it's like you know her

1:11:56

and some friends painting the walls.

1:11:59

Oh my god. Uh-huh. I mean

1:12:01

I don't know how I would

1:12:03

deal with that kind of grief.

1:12:05

Me either. But we're pointing it

1:12:08

out because it changed people's perspective,

1:12:10

especially the investigation's perspective, on whether

1:12:12

they should be looking at her.

1:12:14

Susie had called, this is also

1:12:17

a thing that happened that is,

1:12:19

I think, personally, I think, more

1:12:21

egregious than the painting. The night

1:12:23

of the shooting, Susie had called

1:12:26

Bill's assistant, Luke Faria, who had

1:12:28

eventually taken over the business. before

1:12:30

she called 911. And Luke was

1:12:32

like, why are you calling me

1:12:35

hang up and call 911? And

1:12:37

so she did. And it's like,

1:12:39

why the delay? Why call him

1:12:42

first? It's a little weird, but

1:12:44

again, if you had just witnessed

1:12:46

your husband shoot himself in your

1:12:48

bed, of course, you mean, she

1:12:51

might have been completely out of

1:12:53

her mind. I can't even begin

1:12:55

to imagine. And I can't understand

1:12:57

why people would be like, mmm.

1:13:00

That's sketchy combined with the painting.

1:13:02

It's not great. It's not a

1:13:04

good look. Let's just put it

1:13:06

that way. Either you're a lunatic

1:13:09

or you're deeply traumatized or both.

1:13:11

Yeah. Why not both? Then came

1:13:13

a financial angle. Susie was the

1:13:15

beneficiary of Bill's life insurance policy

1:13:18

worth over $1 million. I saw

1:13:20

a report that said $1.8 million,

1:13:22

but I'm not exactly sure of

1:13:24

the amount. Investigators learned that Susie

1:13:27

had recently inquired about the policy

1:13:29

details. Crucially, Bill was reportedly planning

1:13:31

to remove Susie as the beneficiary

1:13:33

and make his dog Katie Kerry.

1:13:36

I'm sorry I forgot her name.

1:13:38

Cricket? Not cricket. That's her son.

1:13:40

Okay. Kristen. Similar to cricket but

1:13:42

not the same. He was going

1:13:45

to remove Susie as his beneficiary

1:13:47

and I think now that Kristen

1:13:49

was like old enough make her

1:13:51

the beneficiary of his life insurance

1:13:54

policy. That's his only child. That

1:13:56

makes perfect sense. It does not

1:13:58

mean that something bad was happening

1:14:01

in the marriage. Okay. It's genuine

1:14:03

that that genuinely makes sense to

1:14:05

me. Yeah. But it also could

1:14:07

give Susie motive. It's like, oh

1:14:10

shit, I'm about to not be

1:14:12

the beneficiary of this life insurance

1:14:14

policy. But the other thing, though,

1:14:16

what we don't know about the

1:14:19

policy is whether or not it

1:14:21

had some sort of like suicide

1:14:23

clause, which can exist. Like you

1:14:25

can't always collect life insurance policies

1:14:28

from a death by suicide. I

1:14:30

think there is usually a time

1:14:32

period. It can't be within like

1:14:34

two years or something like that.

1:14:37

Right. So I, but yeah, I

1:14:39

know there are different rules depending

1:14:41

on what policy you have. I

1:14:43

don't know those details. So I'm

1:14:46

not sure. But if that was

1:14:48

a factor, that would have me

1:14:50

questioning. Well, wait, then why would

1:14:52

she try to fake a suicide

1:14:55

if she could, if that could

1:14:57

guarantee her the payout and money

1:14:59

was her motive? I don't know.

1:15:01

know that that was even a

1:15:04

thing. Maybe, maybe, who knows? So

1:15:06

his insurance agent did corroborate that

1:15:08

Bill was in the process of

1:15:11

changing the policy from Susie to

1:15:13

Kristen, although there were also reports

1:15:15

of the small business administration and

1:15:17

the dealership being named being named

1:15:20

as like beneficiaries like this would

1:15:22

all go into this fund instead.

1:15:24

But it sounds like as far

1:15:26

as Susie knew, he was, you

1:15:29

know, thinking of changing taking her

1:15:31

off his beneficiary and Kristen was

1:15:33

like the first in line. Bill's

1:15:35

death occurred conveniently before this change

1:15:38

could be finalized. So regardless of

1:15:40

where was going to end up

1:15:42

going, he died by suicide allegedly

1:15:44

before that could be signed off.

1:15:47

So Susie was still the beneficiary.

1:15:49

The autopsy performed by Dr. Lawrence

1:15:51

Dom further complicated the initial suicide

1:15:53

theory. Dr. Dom concluded that Bill's

1:15:56

death was not a suicide, noting

1:15:58

the lack of blood or brain

1:16:00

matter on his right hand, which

1:16:02

he believed would have been present

1:16:05

if Bill had shot himself. And

1:16:07

from the way he was laying

1:16:09

in the, he had a... gunshot

1:16:11

wound through his head, through the

1:16:14

pillow, and through his left arm.

1:16:16

So his arm, he was laying

1:16:18

on his side, he slept on

1:16:20

his side with his arm under

1:16:23

his face, but like with the

1:16:25

pillow between his face and his

1:16:27

hand. Yep, okay. And would have

1:16:30

had to use the right arm

1:16:32

to grab the gun and point

1:16:34

it at himself. I think I've

1:16:36

seen this episode of forensic files.

1:16:39

Probably. Probably. This led investigators to

1:16:41

consider Susie as the prime suspect

1:16:43

with the motive being the life

1:16:45

insurance money. This is where the

1:16:48

luminal evidence enters the picture. Seven

1:16:50

weeks after Bill's death, Texas bloodspatter

1:16:52

expert Sergeant Dusty Heskeu, Heskeu, Heskeu,

1:16:54

analyzed Susie's nightgown that she had

1:16:57

been wearing when 911 got to

1:16:59

her house, using luminol. Lumenol analysis

1:17:01

revealed minuscule specs believed to be

1:17:03

blood. But there was conflicting testimony

1:17:06

between Hescue and another expert, Captain

1:17:08

Tom Bevel, of the Oklahoma City

1:17:10

Police Department, who was brought in,

1:17:12

is like a special expert witness.

1:17:15

So this is a quote from

1:17:17

Justia Law. Quote, Generally, bloods batter

1:17:19

experts inspect the physical evidence to

1:17:21

determine the injuries suffered and their

1:17:24

location with respect to the other

1:17:26

physical evidence. In the instant case

1:17:28

both experts examined applicant Susie's nightgown

1:17:30

for quote high velocity impact blood

1:17:33

staining which they believed would be

1:17:35

most likely present if she had

1:17:37

been the because it sprays back.

1:17:39

Where did she say she was

1:17:42

when this happened laying next to

1:17:44

him in bed? I don't think

1:17:46

she said she was laying next

1:17:49

to him. I actually, that detail,

1:17:51

I am not sure. But I

1:17:53

think she was in the house.

1:17:55

So I don't remember in her

1:17:58

nightgown. It was, you know, at

1:18:00

night. So I don't, I can't

1:18:02

remember. I'm not sure if I

1:18:04

read whether she was in the

1:18:07

room with him or... Heard the

1:18:09

shots and came into her the

1:18:11

shot. It was a single shot

1:18:13

and came into the room that

1:18:16

I don't know Probably be the

1:18:18

latter if if it's weird that

1:18:20

she has Really small stippling on

1:18:22

her nightgown. Oh, yeah, and that

1:18:25

is an important detail that like

1:18:27

the status of the nightgown is

1:18:29

an important detail and Would definitely

1:18:31

determine I think whether or not

1:18:34

she was in the room at

1:18:36

all. Yeah, and so that is

1:18:38

Very questionable, but I don't know.

1:18:40

I don't know exactly what her

1:18:43

testimony was in regards to that.

1:18:45

So the high velocity impact blood

1:18:47

staining, which commonly occurs within a

1:18:49

short distance from a contact gunshot

1:18:52

wound, which is what Bill had,

1:18:54

a contact gunshot wound, which is

1:18:56

what Bill had, a contact gunshot

1:18:59

wound. Hescue testified that he identified

1:19:01

and measured through luminal. He's like

1:19:03

they were lightened up. So Hescue's

1:19:05

expert testimony, he concluded the cause

1:19:08

of death in this incident, in

1:19:10

this incident, was probably homicide. But

1:19:12

Bevel, the Oklahoma expert who I

1:19:14

believe was testifying for the defense,

1:19:17

said that his examination of the

1:19:19

physical evidence led him to conclude

1:19:21

the deceased could have died in

1:19:23

the manner in which applicants Susie

1:19:26

had testified, meaning suicide. He couldn't

1:19:28

rule out. that that was an

1:19:30

option from the blood spatter evidence

1:19:32

that in his professional opinion. while

1:19:35

the prosecution's witness was like, there's

1:19:37

no way this would have to

1:19:39

have been a homicide. So they

1:19:41

were conflicting on the stand. And

1:19:44

as Lucy covered, luminal tests are

1:19:46

presumptive, meaning they can react to

1:19:48

substances other than blood, things that

1:19:50

have a higher high iron content,

1:19:53

which left doubt. We actually don't

1:19:55

know what it was. But that's

1:19:57

kind of the mystery of it.

1:19:59

Oh. Which left out in the

1:20:02

eyes of some experts as to

1:20:04

whether the droplets on the nightgown

1:20:06

wore blood at all. And there

1:20:08

was there's never been. a concrete

1:20:11

determination that those droplets are blood.

1:20:13

We don't know what they are.

1:20:15

They think that they're blood because

1:20:18

luminal picked them up, but it

1:20:20

could have been potato juice. It

1:20:22

could have been a horse rata.

1:20:24

She could have gotten a midnight

1:20:27

snack, you know, before going to

1:20:29

bed. And these clearer but iron

1:20:31

rich liquids that aren't visible to

1:20:33

the naked eye, wouldn't have been

1:20:36

notice her nightgows white? Wouldn't there

1:20:38

have been a bunch more easy

1:20:40

to see blood on it? A

1:20:42

white nightgown? You'd see blood? You

1:20:45

would, especially if she was either

1:20:47

in the bed or like on

1:20:49

top of him, like they're kind

1:20:51

of trying to say that she

1:20:54

is when she shot him. There

1:20:56

would have... Well, she is just

1:20:58

an arm's length away from him.

1:21:00

And remember... And remember that the

1:21:03

investigator who had gone to the

1:21:05

scene said there was a ton

1:21:07

of blood like up the wall

1:21:09

on the ceiling on the ceiling

1:21:12

on the ceiling fan, but you're

1:21:14

telling me that none of that

1:21:16

would have hit her on the

1:21:18

white nightgown? Yeah, now maybe she

1:21:21

wasn't actually wearing that nightgown at

1:21:23

the time like I don't know

1:21:25

but this is the evidence that

1:21:28

they're trying to put her away

1:21:30

With and so we have to

1:21:32

scrutinize it, you know, oh my

1:21:34

god. Yep, so she should have

1:21:37

done But regardless and then take

1:21:39

a shower then and put your

1:21:41

night. Listen always do you're murdering

1:21:43

naked. I mean and in a

1:21:46

hair net for God's sakes gloves

1:21:48

We shouldn't be giving this advice

1:21:50

anyway back to this So because

1:21:52

they found the quote, quote, quote,

1:21:55

quote, blood spatter. This is like,

1:21:57

they had this evidence before anything

1:21:59

went to trial. So they luminal

1:22:01

the nightgown as part of the

1:22:04

investigation. Obviously, this is a huge

1:22:06

evidence that's in trial. But I

1:22:08

kind of jumped ahead. And now

1:22:10

at this point, it's like, all

1:22:13

right, well, our experts say there's

1:22:15

blood spatter on this nightgown. You're

1:22:17

the only person that was home.

1:22:19

The coroner report says that these

1:22:22

are not consistent injuries with suicide

1:22:24

were arresting you. So they arrested

1:22:26

Susie and they charged her with,

1:22:28

I believe, first-degree murder and she

1:22:31

was facing life in prison. She

1:22:33

went to trial six months after

1:22:35

she was charged and Hescue's lumenal

1:22:37

findings were key to the prosecution's

1:22:40

case. He's the one who's like,

1:22:42

there's blood on the night gown,

1:22:44

she shot him. The Mobery's blood-stained

1:22:47

mattress was even brought into the

1:22:49

courtroom. Can you even fucking imagine?

1:22:51

as a juror. I bet it

1:22:53

was just to be like look

1:22:56

how much blood there fucking was.

1:22:58

Probably. Whoa. Yep. But the defense

1:23:00

emphasized Bill's history of emotional issues

1:23:02

and threats of suicide as well

1:23:05

as their expert Bevel's testimony that

1:23:07

the spatter evidence could indicate suicide.

1:23:09

Despite this conflicting evidence, apparently the

1:23:11

prosecution's case felt... stronger to the

1:23:14

jury because in June of 1988,

1:23:16

so a year after his death,

1:23:18

Susie was found guilty in sentence

1:23:20

to life in prison. But this

1:23:23

is not the end of the

1:23:25

story. For eight years, Susie remained

1:23:27

behind bars. Her son, Wade, became

1:23:29

convinced of her innocence and enrolled

1:23:32

in law school determined to prove

1:23:34

it. Oh my God, Wade! He

1:23:36

focused on the evidence concerning his

1:23:38

mother's nightgown. While Lumenol had indicated

1:23:41

the presence of possible blood, the

1:23:43

rest of the white gown appeared

1:23:45

pristine. And in another major twist,

1:23:47

it was revealed that another blood

1:23:50

spatter expert, someone named Dr. Herbert

1:23:52

McDonald, had analyzed the evidence and

1:23:54

could not confirm that the material

1:23:57

on Susie's night gown was blood

1:23:59

at all. So even

1:24:01

a blood expert couldn't tell you

1:24:03

if it was blood. Oh my

1:24:05

God. Even more significantly, the prosecution

1:24:07

had suppressed this doctor's report, Dr.

1:24:09

McDonald's report that should have been

1:24:11

testimony at the trial. They kind

1:24:14

of squashed it because it contradicted

1:24:16

their homicide theory. So all the

1:24:18

evidence wasn't even presented in court

1:24:20

because they found that the- No,

1:24:22

they can't. That's- They very much

1:24:24

cannot do that. Wow. McDonald had

1:24:26

told prosecutors that he found no

1:24:28

indication of blood stains or high

1:24:30

velocity impacts batter on the nightgown

1:24:33

that would have been present if

1:24:35

Susie had shot her husband while

1:24:37

wearing it. Susie's side disputed the

1:24:39

luminal tests, noting that substances like

1:24:41

horse radish can cause luminal to

1:24:43

glow and that the nightgown hadn't

1:24:45

been specifically tested for blood. And

1:24:47

now it was like too late.

1:24:50

In December of 1996, Susie's conviction

1:24:52

was overturned thanks in part to

1:24:54

her son's efforts and the suppressed

1:24:56

evidence. So he like was key

1:24:58

to getting this case reopened and

1:25:00

he was helping file all of

1:25:02

these appeals citing this misrepresentation of

1:25:04

evidence and suppression of evidence and

1:25:06

they, her case was overturned. Okay,

1:25:09

well she does have a favorite

1:25:11

son. For sure. Sorry cricket. Wade's

1:25:13

the favorite. Cute name, but Wade's

1:25:15

got it in the bag. So

1:25:17

she was released from prison in

1:25:19

May of 1997 pending a new

1:25:21

trial. The second trial began in

1:25:23

January of 1988, a decade after

1:25:26

Bill's death. This time the defense

1:25:28

highlighted Bill's, you know, suicidal ideation,

1:25:30

the things that his behavior, things

1:25:32

that had been coming up in

1:25:34

his life recently, his financial situation,

1:25:36

the unreliable nature of the luminal

1:25:38

evidence that the previous trial had

1:25:40

been so set on. The investigators

1:25:42

and the prosecution were trying to

1:25:45

say that she, because I read

1:25:47

this somewhere else, I guess I

1:25:49

didn't include this in my case.

1:25:51

but it was like Bill's brother

1:25:53

or something, or maybe one of

1:25:55

his kids testified that he was

1:25:57

a side sleeper. So their theory

1:25:59

was that Susie, while he was

1:26:01

asleep, had straddled him keeping him

1:26:04

in that sleeping position, shot him

1:26:06

in the head, and then just

1:26:08

like. set the scene essentially and

1:26:10

scurried away to call the business

1:26:12

partner and then call the police.

1:26:14

You'd be covered in blood. She'd

1:26:16

be covered in blood. So maybe

1:26:18

she changed, but we never found

1:26:21

any of her, any evidence that

1:26:23

she had disposed of clothing. I

1:26:25

mean, she I think was also

1:26:27

tested for like gun residue and

1:26:29

that wasn't there. Like there, everything

1:26:31

from the first trial really hinged

1:26:33

on that luminal spray of the

1:26:35

night gown. And that's why regardless,

1:26:37

I guess, I mean, we're about

1:26:40

to be done. Like, regardless of

1:26:42

whether you think she did it

1:26:44

or not, it was the right

1:26:46

call to over, to throw out

1:26:48

this first trial. Absolutely. And represent

1:26:50

all of the evidence. That is,

1:26:52

that is what she deserves as

1:26:54

a citizen of the United States.

1:26:57

The whole beyond a reasonable doubt

1:26:59

thing is really what I get

1:27:01

hung up on. That's kind of

1:27:03

why like... I'm not, I don't

1:27:05

think Michael Peterson should be in

1:27:07

jail. I don't think Adnon Syed

1:27:09

should be in jail. I don't

1:27:11

think, and it's like not even,

1:27:13

it's not that they could have

1:27:16

done it, it's not that it

1:27:18

wouldn't make for a more salacious

1:27:20

real life and also like a

1:27:22

neat little bow on this case.

1:27:24

But if you're 50-50, that's not

1:27:26

a reasonable doubt. No. And frankly,

1:27:28

whether or not you think he

1:27:30

did it isn't the point. It's

1:27:33

whether or not the state, the

1:27:35

prosecution, because the burden of that

1:27:37

is on the prosecution, can prove

1:27:39

beyond a reasonable doubt that they

1:27:41

did it. So if you have

1:27:43

enough doubt to have that feeling

1:27:45

in your chest that's like, I

1:27:47

don't think I can convict this

1:27:49

person, that's because the prosecution. didn't

1:27:52

do their job and it's your

1:27:54

job not to convict them. That's

1:27:56

the point. Whether or not you

1:27:58

think, well, there's a good possibility

1:28:00

that he did it, that's not

1:28:02

enough to sentence someone to, you

1:28:04

know, it's, yeah. That was my

1:28:06

major hang up during jury duty.

1:28:09

Thousand percent, it would be very

1:28:11

hard. It's easy for us to

1:28:13

sit here and talk about this

1:28:15

when someone's life is not in

1:28:17

our hands. But it is an

1:28:19

important reminder. that like that is

1:28:21

the job of the of the

1:28:23

state is to prove it beyond

1:28:25

a reason you have really like

1:28:28

no problem saying yeah you fucking

1:28:30

did it and you can sleep

1:28:32

great not to suppress evidence no

1:28:34

no no no piper no piper

1:28:36

no okay so she's released she

1:28:38

gets the new trial and even

1:28:40

hesc you in this new trial

1:28:42

or maybe ahead of this new

1:28:44

trial conceded himself that his original

1:28:47

trial testimony was scientifically invalid. So

1:28:49

everything that this had hinged on,

1:28:51

even he was like, yeah, my

1:28:53

bad guys, I bungled that one.

1:28:55

I fucked that one up. Oh

1:28:57

man. Prosecutors argued that Susie could

1:28:59

have shot Bill from behind a

1:29:01

barrier of pillows, explaining the lack

1:29:04

of visible blood. Where are all

1:29:06

the bloody pillows? Exactly. And of

1:29:08

course, they pointed to the insurance

1:29:10

money. during the defense's closing arguments,

1:29:12

Susie Mober, at that time 49,

1:29:14

dramatically cried out in court, I

1:29:16

didn't do it! And on January

1:29:18

24th, 1998, the jury returned with

1:29:20

their verdicts of not guilty. Good.

1:29:23

So I couldn't have put that

1:29:25

woman back in jail with all

1:29:27

this bullshit. Well, it's funny that

1:29:29

you say that because jury foreman

1:29:31

Edward Salvador did state. that the

1:29:33

not guilty verdict meant the prosecution,

1:29:35

like we said, was unable to

1:29:37

prove its case, not necessarily that

1:29:40

the jury believed Susie was innocent.

1:29:42

That's them's the rules. Yep, so

1:29:44

they did their job. They did

1:29:46

their job. Wow. Bill's daughter, Kristen

1:29:48

Mobre, strongly disagreed with the verdict.

1:29:50

I don't blame her. I mean,

1:29:52

I... I certainly have my doubts

1:29:54

on this whole thing, but the

1:29:56

state doesn't have enough in my

1:29:59

opinion to do this. Yeah. But

1:30:01

you know, Kristen gets to feel

1:30:03

how she feels about it. That's

1:30:05

her dad. You know, we don't,

1:30:07

this is not at all a

1:30:09

reflection on her. She gets to

1:30:11

disagree and she's valid. And if

1:30:13

it was suicide, that's such a

1:30:16

complicated thing, especially involving a parent.

1:30:18

It's really hard to unpack all

1:30:20

of that. And if Susie did

1:30:22

kill him, and she got... you

1:30:24

know, a not guilty verdict, that's

1:30:26

pretty fucking hard too. I don't

1:30:28

blame anyone for how they're responding

1:30:30

here. No, and this last bit

1:30:32

is also a little bit like,

1:30:35

really, Susie, really girl. Did we

1:30:37

have to do this? Because... More

1:30:39

than the shouting out in court?

1:30:41

No, you know, oh my God,

1:30:43

Ray, keeps looking you. I love

1:30:45

it. She, after her acquittal, I

1:30:47

guess, did still try to collect

1:30:49

his life insurance money and was...

1:30:52

I know, and was denied. Yeah,

1:30:54

you got your freedom, bitch, walk

1:30:56

away. Yeah, so I guess there

1:30:58

were legal battles to regain the

1:31:00

insurance proceeds that were ultimately denied

1:31:02

based on res judicata. Meaning the

1:31:04

issue had already been decided in

1:31:06

a previous court judgment. It had

1:31:08

already been decided she wasn't going

1:31:11

to get it. So when she

1:31:13

tried again, they weren't going to

1:31:15

give it to her. And I

1:31:17

guess, I haven't followed up to

1:31:19

see if she is still fighting

1:31:21

that to this day. God willing,

1:31:23

I hope not. Let it go.

1:31:25

Piper know. But either way, she

1:31:27

did not get the 1.8 million.

1:31:30

So yeah, I guess, what do

1:31:32

you think? Like, was she an

1:31:34

innocent woman wrongfully convicted or did

1:31:36

she get away with murder? Here's

1:31:38

again with the Michael Peterson thing.

1:31:40

You can be a weirdo kind

1:31:42

of shit bag person and not

1:31:44

have killed your spouse. And she's

1:31:47

obviously sort of a dramatic weird.

1:31:49

She was the car dealership queen

1:31:51

or whatever. So I don't think

1:31:53

she did it just because of

1:31:55

how much blood there would have

1:31:57

to be for a contact gunshot

1:31:59

wound with a high velocity gun,

1:32:01

whatever you said. If there's blood

1:32:03

all the way up the wall

1:32:06

on the sheets soaking the bed

1:32:08

on the fan, and she has

1:32:10

zero visible stains on her night

1:32:12

gown. I agree. And I think

1:32:14

that if she had changed her

1:32:16

clothes or yeah I mean maybe

1:32:18

she did do it naked and

1:32:20

then shower I don't know but

1:32:23

like I feel like there would

1:32:25

be other evidence the fact that

1:32:27

it's only that tiny minuscule literally

1:32:29

they said not seen to the

1:32:31

naked eye bloods batter that sealed

1:32:33

her fate. Obviously the motive with

1:32:35

the life insurance is applicable but

1:32:37

like we don't even know that

1:32:39

they were arguing about that. At

1:32:42

all. We don't know that that

1:32:44

had any impact on the marriage

1:32:46

whatsoever. It is a totally normal

1:32:48

thing to do to have your

1:32:50

insurance policies circumvent. At least that's

1:32:52

obviously people have multiple insurance policies,

1:32:54

but have some that circumvent the

1:32:56

spouse and go to the next

1:32:59

of kin. Like that's not an

1:33:01

uncommon thing. You know, I'm dealing

1:33:03

with something like that right now

1:33:05

with my grandma. Like I know

1:33:07

that this happens. So yeah. That

1:33:09

could totally be one of those

1:33:11

things where it looks like a

1:33:13

smoking gun, the insurance thing, but

1:33:15

it's actually kind of coincidental. Also,

1:33:18

like, how many male heads of

1:33:20

household have killed themselves because of

1:33:22

financial stuff? Because you're in the

1:33:24

middle of a recession. Have you

1:33:26

seen the third season of White

1:33:28

Lotus? Yeah, that family in Waterbury.

1:33:30

I mean, the family in Excelsior.

1:33:32

I think that's what I meant.

1:33:35

What's Waterbury? Oh, that's in Des

1:33:37

Moines. Either way, it's not like

1:33:39

we haven't heard of people going

1:33:41

even farther, family annihilators from this

1:33:43

kind of stuff. It happens kind

1:33:45

of a lot. Not to mention

1:33:47

women. usually use guns like that.

1:33:49

Yeah. I don't know. Statistically, absolutely

1:33:51

not. She didn't do it. If

1:33:54

we're looking at those kinds of

1:33:56

factors. I just, no. I couldn't,

1:33:58

she, she can be, she might

1:34:00

be a crackpot. I don't think

1:34:02

she killed him. No. I, honestly,