0:01

In 2025, Austria celebrates

0:03

the 200th birthday of Strauss Jr.

0:05

Austria's Austria's famous Waltz composer. into

0:07

the legendary into the legendary Strauss

0:09

family, he composed beautiful pieces

0:11

like the Blue Danube Waltz,

0:13

which to to fame during

0:15

his 1872 American 2025, In 2025,

0:18

a Vienna will host a

0:20

year to celebrate to celebrate this

0:22

legacy. and So join them and

0:24

discover the magic of the

0:26

Waltz throughout the city. Learn

0:28

Learn more at Ostria dot info slash Strauss.

0:37

This is Wired Politics a show about how

0:39

tech is changing politics. politics. I'm Tim

0:41

Marchman, Wired's Director of Science, Politics,

0:43

and Security, filling in for Leah in for

0:45

who was unable to be here

0:48

due to a personal be here due to

0:50

a personal emergency. The The election

0:52

season is over, and it's our

0:54

final episode of Wired Politics Lab.

0:56

Lab. One thing we do know

0:58

about the next the years is that

1:00

Donald Trump will be right at

1:02

the center of things, be shaping

1:04

events, of making everything about him, making

1:06

and he's always unpredictable. and he's Equally

1:08

unpredictable is Equally at least for now,

1:10

is the, at -president, Elon Musk. Elon

1:13

Musk. beyond Trump and Musk, Trump and

1:15

seems to have a lot of

1:17

wild a lot store. cards in store. next for

1:19

the far the far right? How is

1:21

the administration going to pay off

1:23

the political debts it owes to

1:25

Christian to Christian How are the are of

1:27

Silicon Valley going to both sidle

1:29

up to the administration and and

1:31

with one of their own for

1:33

influence and proximity to the proximity to the

1:35

what can we expect can we broader

1:38

developments in the tech world, ranging

1:40

from the continued growth of generative

1:42

growth of the very very status of

1:44

TikTok TikTok as an entity able to legally

1:46

operate in the United States. States?

1:49

Joining me to take some educated

1:51

guesses are guesses politics reporters. McKenna Kelly. Hi,

1:53

McKenna. Good to be here. here. And

1:55

And from Cork, Ireland, David

1:57

Gilbert. Hey Tim, good good to be

1:59

here. one final time. So let's

2:02

start with Elon Musk. McKenna,

2:04

let's just assume, as we've

2:06

already predicted on this program,

2:08

that the Musk Trump romance,

2:10

the co-presidency, will not survive. What already

2:13

existing fault line do you think could

2:15

cause it to explode? I think, I

2:17

don't know if it's any specific policy

2:19

issue, but they have just two huge

2:22

egos that I imagine Trump might get

2:24

upset with Elon maybe getting a little

2:26

bit more TV time or time on,

2:29

you know, people getting excited about them

2:31

on Twitter. That would be my main

2:33

guess. What about you, David? I kind

2:35

of felt would fall in the part

2:38

already because there was reports coming out

2:40

a week after the election that, you

2:42

know, he was overstaying his welcome, Elon

2:45

Musk and acting as, you know, co-president

2:47

in certain respects. But he's, you know,

2:49

he's still there, he's still meeting with

2:51

world leaders alongside Trump. It's amazing that

2:54

it's even lasted this long. I think

2:56

he may hang around or he may

2:58

be there until... Trump needs someone to

3:00

blame for not fulfilling all these wild

3:03

promises that he's made on the campaign

3:05

trail in terms of efficiency in government

3:07

or whatever else it may be and

3:10

he needs to blame Musk. The one

3:12

problem I guess with that is that

3:14

Musk is still you know extremely powerful

3:16

has huge platform with X and huge

3:19

amounts of money to hit back at

3:21

Trump if needed but who knows it's

3:23

really hard to say I didn't think

3:26

the relationship would last this long but

3:28

they seem to be going strong. One

3:30

thing too, people in Trump's orbit are

3:32

incredibly disposable. We've seen that when it

3:35

comes to his cabinet, we've seen it

3:37

when it comes to even people in

3:39

his family, it feels like. And so

3:42

I can imagine a world where we're

3:44

already seeing like Amazon, Jeff Basos, or

3:46

Andy Jassie, or Mark Zuckerberg, somebody who

3:48

also has a ton of money and

3:51

is also in the tech space, maybe

3:53

challenging Elon for that seat. attending more

3:55

meetings and then you know getting in

3:57

between that relationship and maybe casting him

4:00

aside. Maybe we could have that Musk,

4:02

Zuckerberg fight after all for... Oh my

4:04

gosh. Says at the right hand of

4:07

Trump. With all of the W.W.E. stuff

4:09

going on with this you'd imagine that

4:11

maybe we have a bigger you know

4:13

bigger chance of seeing that fight. There

4:16

you go Linda McMahon could get involved.

4:18

What more do we need? I would

4:20

pay to see that. McKenna, what do

4:23

you see ahead for X and Truth

4:25

Social, which is Trump's social media network

4:27

that now accounts for, I believe, over

4:29

half of his fortune? They're kind of

4:32

targeting the same audience. Do you see

4:34

them coming together being a source of

4:36

friction for the two? They don't seem

4:39

like too much of a source of

4:41

friction right now. It seems as if

4:43

Trump is still continuing to use Truth

4:45

Social as his main messaging platform. I

4:48

mean, the reason, the ways that I've

4:50

seen nominees announced was through like Caroline

4:52

Leavitt, the press secretary at the transition,

4:54

posting screenshots of his True Social posts.

4:57

And now we're seeing Trump using X

4:59

a little bit more. I think it

5:01

was towards the end of the summer

5:04

that we saw a lot of his

5:06

true social posts being cross posted to

5:08

X for the first time in quite

5:10

a while. And so maybe true social

5:13

just kind of lingers in the background

5:15

and falls apart because of internal problems.

5:17

And of course there's already been struggles

5:20

within the company running it. Devinenez has

5:22

apparently reportedly fought with other executives who

5:24

were there. floor starting the app have

5:26

exited and so it might just be

5:29

one of those things where again personalities

5:31

are colliding and X might just went

5:33

out on top. It certainly has a

5:36

larger user base. David, can

5:38

we talk a little bit about

5:40

Musk on the world stage? You

5:42

referenced the meetings with world leaders.

5:44

It's weird. He was on a

5:46

call with Ukrainian President Zelenski. He's

5:48

also recently been paling around with

5:50

the Prime Minister of Italy. Should

5:52

we start thinking of him as

5:54

a primary driver and financier of

5:56

global far-right politics right now? Yeah,

5:58

this is a five. aspect

6:01

of it because we've seen the

6:03

kind of growth in the network

6:05

of far-right communities internationally in 2024,

6:07

the ties have become much stronger

6:09

between the US and Europe. We've

6:11

seen that happening at a kind

6:13

of A lower level where communities

6:15

are definitely forging closer ties and

6:18

Musk could potentially be a key

6:20

figure in that in 2025. Just

6:22

yesterday he was at a meeting

6:24

with Victor Orban in Marilago alongside

6:26

Donald Trump. Victor Orbine obviously the

6:28

Hungarian Prime Minister who has instituted

6:30

very repressive authoritarian policies in that

6:32

country and a person who Trump

6:34

has lion eyes and valorized repeatedly

6:36

over the years. We've seen as

6:39

you said his very close relationship

6:41

with George and Maloney in Italy.

6:43

This week he had to deny

6:45

that he was in a relationship

6:47

with George Maloney after Cattered. The

6:49

far-right influencer posted a suggestion that

6:51

he was doing that and Musk

6:53

said no in response on Twitter.

6:55

And one of the most interesting

6:57

things to me is how there

6:59

is now a suggestion that he

7:02

is going to use his money

7:04

to influence the next elections in

7:06

the UK, just as he used

7:08

his money to back Trump this

7:10

time around. There was a report

7:12

I think a couple of weeks

7:14

ago saying there was, you know,

7:16

a hundred million was going to

7:18

be invested, that was denied. But

7:20

just yesterday, a billionaire in the

7:23

UK, Nick Candy, announced that he

7:25

was going to be putting seven

7:27

figures into reform UK, led by

7:29

Nigel Farage, again a very close

7:31

ally of Trump. And Elon Musk

7:33

said this morning or confirmed this

7:35

morning that he has been in

7:37

communication with Nick Candy about donating

7:39

money. So it's pretty clear that

7:41

Musk is looking to build those

7:43

relationships globally, not just in the

7:46

US, and that's a pretty terrifying

7:48

prospect. I'm interested to know what

7:50

the rest of Silicon Valley is

7:52

thinking right now. We've talked about

7:54

and Zuckerberg have both been trying

7:56

to make nice with Trump. Who

7:58

do you see the likely winners

8:00

and losers in Silicon Valley in

8:02

the coming year? Let's start with

8:04

you, McKenna. Sure. What I'm seeing

8:07

a lot of right now is

8:09

just this week the Kids Online

8:11

Safety Act was pushed to the

8:13

next administration. And so I'm assuming,

8:15

you know, with all of the

8:17

excitement around protecting kids, that law

8:19

might find itself being passed next

8:21

year. It's looking a lot more

8:23

likely than it has been for

8:25

the last couple years. And so

8:27

that is a major loss for

8:30

social media companies. I think, you

8:32

know, the people that will see

8:34

the most... success in the Trump

8:36

administration will be people in companies

8:38

that have government contracts, whether that

8:40

is with data centers, AWS, things

8:42

like that. But when it comes

8:44

to people running social media companies,

8:46

except for Elon, right, people who

8:48

run these platforms, I do see

8:51

folks at the Justice Department, at

8:53

the FTC, Andrew Ferguson was just

8:55

nominated to be the chair of

8:57

the FTC this week under Trump.

8:59

I still see, you know, a

9:01

lot of people wanting to. You

9:03

know, incur some kind of wrath

9:05

on these tech companies for censoring

9:07

them, allegedly. What about you, David?

9:09

Who are you looking at as

9:11

winners and losers? What's happening right

9:14

now is people are just scrambling

9:16

and fighting for position and for

9:18

influence. Just the fact that Zuckeberg

9:20

is calling Trump, he wants to

9:22

kind of remain part of the

9:24

conversation. He doesn't want Musk to

9:26

be the only social media owner

9:28

who has the presidency here. So

9:30

I think the winners will depend

9:32

on... Ultimately, who's willing to bend

9:34

the knee the most? Because that's

9:37

what Trump values as loyalty. And

9:39

so whoever is willing to, you

9:41

know, we saw a post on

9:43

true social yesterday, I think, from

9:45

Trump, where he said that whoever

9:47

is willing to invest a billion

9:49

dollars in the US is going

9:51

to get any tax break there

9:53

looking for, is going to get

9:55

all their environmental licenses approved. before

9:58

they apply for them. So he's

10:00

willing to give all of these

10:02

benefits to whoever is willing to

10:04

give him the most money. And

10:06

so I think that's what it

10:08

comes down to, whoever is willing

10:10

to put their money where their

10:12

mouth is and kind of show

10:14

their patriotism through investing huge amounts

10:16

of money in the US are

10:18

going to be the biggest winners.

10:21

I feel the need to point

10:23

out there. The GDP of the

10:25

US is about $27 trillion, which

10:27

is $27,000 billion, so a billion

10:29

is just not that impressive a

10:31

figure in the grand scheme of

10:33

things here. But he put it

10:35

in all caps, Tim, so that

10:37

makes it look much bigger. Should

10:39

we address the crypto industry too?

10:42

We should, but before we do,

10:44

I wanted to ask you, do

10:46

you see all this feeding at

10:48

the trough as a big change?

10:50

It feels like traditionally Silicon Valley

10:52

hasn't actually run big lobbying operations.

10:54

They have, but not themselves. What

10:56

we've seen, there's been millions and

10:58

millions of dollars put into lobbying

11:00

Congress specifically. But now, I think,

11:02

you know, after doing, after going

11:05

through a first Trump administration, they

11:07

realize that the way to get

11:09

things done in Congress isn't lobbying

11:11

Congress for so many years. No

11:13

big changes. since basically I would

11:15

say the infrastructure act and before

11:17

that maybe the ACA, you know,

11:19

those are the main legislative wins

11:21

that Congress has had. And so,

11:23

you know, to get things done

11:26

under a Trump administration, it's going

11:28

to be being around Trump. That's

11:30

the difference here is that you

11:32

have CEOs now who are doing

11:34

lobbying on their own behalf. Jeff

11:36

Basos, I wouldn't know if he

11:38

had any conversations with Obama, right?

11:40

And now this is all playing

11:42

out in public. And it's a

11:44

fascinating thing because that's so personality

11:46

driven. Trump is so unusually driven

11:49

by just vibes and these are

11:51

not the most dynamic personalities in

11:53

the world. He loves people who

11:55

are successful. Lobbyists are just, you

11:57

know, little, sorry if you're a

11:59

lobbyist, but people see them as

12:01

like cockroaches. around Congress, right? Those

12:03

are not the types of people

12:05

that Trump sees as successful and

12:07

people that he should be listening

12:09

to. So let's talk about crypto

12:12

now. I think we can all

12:14

agree that the crypto industry is

12:16

going to do very well under

12:18

this administration. The idea of unregulated

12:20

securities seems really big with some

12:22

of these big personalities who are

12:24

driving things. Let's talk a little

12:26

bit about that and what is

12:28

on the table. One of the

12:30

things that particularly intrigues slash alarms

12:33

me is the notion of some

12:35

sort of federal backing for Bitcoin

12:37

that's been floated, which at least

12:39

seems to me as an amateur

12:41

economist, the absolute worst of all

12:43

worlds in that you have an

12:45

unregulated security which the government is

12:47

nonetheless backstopping the same way it

12:49

would FDIC ensure deposits or something

12:51

like that? The crypto industry is

12:53

one of the biggest winners this

12:56

election year. Trump made an entire

12:58

new group of people, a crypto

13:00

advisory board, a cryptosar, which is

13:02

David Sachs, very influential VC and

13:04

friend Elon Musk, and podcastos. And

13:06

podcastos, true, with all of his

13:08

besties, is what he calls them.

13:10

So there's a whole new group

13:12

here. And then when you look

13:14

at the appointees that Trump has

13:17

made to the important agencies, like

13:19

the Commerce Department and Howard Lutnik

13:21

or the SEC and Paul Atkins

13:23

recently, the people in these positions

13:25

of power to do these things

13:27

are very excited about crypto and

13:29

wanting to create whatever this light

13:31

touch framework is that the crypto

13:33

industry wants. The crypto industry is

13:35

always saying that they want to

13:37

be regulated in a specific way.

13:40

So now it seems much more

13:42

likely that we'll actually see something

13:44

get done. So one definite potential

13:46

loser in Silicon Valley is TikTok,

13:48

which filed an emergency motion in

13:50

court this week to try to

13:52

stop the US from banning it.

13:54

For people who don't remember this,

13:56

under the current quarter, TikTok has

13:58

to be sold to an American

14:01

owner or it will be banned

14:03

in the US starting on January

14:05

19th. McKenna, what do you think

14:07

is going to happen? with the

14:09

court, but looking further out, what

14:11

do you think TikTok looks like

14:13

under Trump? I imagine that this

14:15

is going to be really, really

14:17

hard for them to get out

14:19

of now. Trump has said that

14:21

he wants to save TikTok, that

14:24

he, you know, all of the

14:26

stuff that he did in his

14:28

first administration, he doesn't really believe

14:30

it anymore, and he wants the

14:32

app to stick around. and like

14:34

how well his tic-tocs did. So

14:36

he loves the thing, right? But

14:38

if this goes to Skotis, it's

14:40

gonna take several months, I imagine,

14:42

and I don't know if someone

14:45

like bite dance, right, wants to

14:47

wait that much time, and all

14:49

of that uncertainty, they've already dealt

14:51

with so much uncertainty, whether the

14:53

app could stay in the United

14:55

States. And so I think we're

14:57

getting closer to the app. that

14:59

might be the more appetizing position

15:01

for bite dance and tick-tock come

15:03

next year. David, do you agree

15:05

with that? Yeah, it's going to

15:08

be interesting to see what happens

15:10

because of, you know, will Elon

15:12

Musk have an influence over this?

15:14

Will Mark Zuckerberg be able to

15:16

influence him on this? Do they

15:18

even care? Sorry, my like chaos

15:20

prediction would be that Elon Musk

15:22

buys tick-tock and then revives Vine.

15:24

That would be like the funniest

15:26

thing that could happen and maybe

15:28

probably the worst thing. We already

15:31

saw Elon Musk of course like

15:33

joking and like doing a poll

15:35

on X saying that should I

15:37

bring Vine back because it was

15:39

such a beloved app. I would

15:41

be highly in favor of bringing

15:43

someone ringing Vine back. I don't

15:45

know that Elon has proved to

15:47

be a great product manager over

15:49

the last couple of years. No.

15:52

Obviously, influencers and creators on TikTok

15:54

and other platforms played a huge

15:56

role in this election and really

15:58

seemed to overshadow legacy media in

16:00

a lot of ways. Musk, in

16:02

a lot of ways, is the

16:04

biggest example. that philanthropist, billionaire, Iron

16:06

Man, above all, he's probably an

16:08

influencer at this point. Who are

16:10

each of you looking at as

16:12

a breakout person over maybe the

16:15

next year or so? And also,

16:17

is there anyone whose influence you

16:19

think might be on the wane?

16:21

Let's start with you, David. We've

16:23

had a lot of discussion over

16:25

the last month or however long

16:27

since the election happened where we've

16:29

had this idea where the left

16:31

needs a version of Joe Rogan

16:33

even though Joe Rogan isn't necessarily

16:36

right winging in all his views

16:38

but this idea that a new

16:40

left wing superstar or broadcaster or

16:42

influencer needs to come along and

16:44

do what they believe Joe Rogan

16:46

did in the election. But I

16:48

think that's just fundamentally... flawed thinking.

16:50

I think what happened more so

16:52

was that there was just so

16:54

many of these influencers and podcasters

16:56

that the Trump campaign engaged with

16:59

on a one-to-one basis. I was

17:01

watching, for a story, I was

17:03

reporting the other day, I was

17:05

watching a five days before the

17:07

election, Cash Patel, who's now nominated

17:09

as the FBI director. He was

17:11

on a podcast on a platform

17:13

called Pills. most people will never

17:15

have heard of and never will

17:17

hear of again. But he went

17:20

on that podcast as part of

17:22

the Trump campaign to, he was

17:24

talking about going out to vote,

17:26

getting people out to vote. And

17:28

this is on a, you know,

17:30

a Q and on a adjacent

17:32

show and it's It's just that

17:34

level of engagement with broadcasters and

17:36

influencers who aren't that prominent. I

17:38

think that has had much more

17:40

of an impact on the outcome

17:43

and that is something that I

17:45

don't think people from the Democratic

17:47

side really got or guess yes

17:49

and I think that's what will

17:51

need to happen. Last week Wired

17:53

had its big interview event in

17:55

San Francisco Mark Cuban spoke a

17:57

bit about that. He didn't use

17:59

this phrasing, so I'm loosely paraphrasing,

18:01

but basically the idea being instead

18:03

of looking for this person who's

18:06

gonna reach 30 million people, you

18:08

have to go out there and

18:10

talk to tons and tons and

18:12

tons of people who might be

18:14

reaching 30,000 people at peace. And

18:16

that this this idea of. finding

18:18

a new megaphone is probably a

18:20

bit dated. I tend to agree

18:22

with that myself. McKenna, I'm curious

18:24

what you think about both that

18:27

dynamic and if there are any

18:29

individual people you're looking at on

18:31

the up and the down. Yeah,

18:33

I think what you guys are

18:35

talking about when Mark Cuban talked

18:37

about is really important. The Democrats,

18:39

however, did spend a majority of

18:41

their money on micro influencers, I

18:43

think, when you look at some

18:45

of the data. It's people with

18:47

under 100,000 followers. I think it

18:50

has more to do, not with

18:52

the individual influencers themselves, but the

18:54

communities around them. Democrats, and even

18:56

Republicans in many ways, they see

18:58

influencers as just a billboard of

19:00

advertising, when really what is important

19:02

about them is that you want

19:04

to engage with this not as

19:06

advertising but as organizing. And once

19:08

you think about this as organizing,

19:11

this is where we get into,

19:13

you know, why people love Hasan

19:15

Piker. Well, they like what he

19:17

does, they like what he says,

19:19

and engaging with him is fun.

19:21

I was listening to an interview,

19:23

Hasan did, on Tuesday night with

19:25

FTC chair Lena Khan. Not like

19:27

they're talking about like a Kroger's

19:29

decision, an antitrust decision, all of

19:31

this stuff that typically would be

19:34

fairly boring, but there was 40,000

19:36

concurrent viewers at the time. The

19:38

chat was popping off and calling

19:40

con-based and all of this stuff.

19:42

They were excited to participate not

19:44

just with Hassan, but with the

19:46

people in the community. And so

19:48

I think the important thing coming

19:50

out of this election is not

19:52

just finding, you know, the most

19:55

wickedly talented or attractive or best

19:57

communicator. but finding those engaged communities

19:59

that can then, you know, influence

20:01

each other as well. When we,

20:03

I think when I think about

20:05

the biggest people who are winning...

20:07

am definitely surprised that Hassan, Piker,

20:09

has the influence that he has

20:11

now. He has been largely rejected

20:13

by the Democratic Party as being,

20:15

you know, summoned to a bit

20:18

more progressive. He's pro-Palestinian. He is

20:20

louder on issues that the, you

20:22

know, mainstream Democratic Party doesn't really

20:24

want to talk about. all the

20:26

time. And so he was invited

20:28

to the DNC. He had a

20:30

whole booth set up to stream

20:32

and do his thing for an

20:34

entire day until he got kicked

20:36

out. But that's another story. And

20:39

then yesterday he had Tanahassee coats

20:41

on his stream immediately after he

20:43

had Lena Khan and then he

20:45

had a comedian afterwards. Like that

20:47

is killer programming. That's the kind

20:49

of thing that I think Democrats

20:51

would be better off considering than

20:53

like all of this, you know,

20:55

spending and advertising that they have

20:57

been doing. And on the right,

20:59

you know, I don't necessarily think

21:02

that the Milk Boys are this

21:04

far-right podcasting organization, but they have

21:06

gotten really involved in politics this

21:08

go-around. They have created a voter

21:10

outreach organization. They did multiple podcasts

21:12

with Trump and the folks on

21:14

their team. And that is the

21:16

kind of audience that I think

21:18

the Trump administration and the Republican

21:20

Party is going after. They're going

21:22

after a more fratty atmosphere. They're

21:25

going after something that is a

21:27

bit more barstool sports, and I

21:29

think the milk boy has really

21:31

fit in well there. We're a

21:33

politics podcast. We're also a tech

21:35

podcast. And this is a very

21:37

broad question, but I'm curious. What

21:39

are the potential developments in tech

21:41

that you have your eye on

21:43

next year? AI, quantum computing, biotech,

21:46

anything you're just interested in, especially

21:48

as it pertains to politics. Let's

21:50

start with you, David. One of

21:52

the most interesting conversations I had

21:54

this year was with someone who

21:56

was tracking dark web job boards

21:58

and how Russian disinformation campaigns are

22:00

advertising for AI experts. can build

22:02

either large language models or they

22:04

can develop tools that have no

22:06

barriers because all the open source

22:09

ones that are available at the

22:11

moment have certain barriers on them

22:13

that prevent these guys from doing

22:15

things that they might want to

22:17

do. So I think it would

22:19

be really interesting to see if

22:21

next year we actually get to

22:23

the point where these disinformation campaigns

22:25

have their own technologies they can

22:27

use and roll out at scale

22:30

that will actually make a difference.

22:32

And how about you, McKenna? Something

22:34

I've been reading a lot about

22:36

that I'm like obsessed with reading

22:38

about is human brain organoids. And

22:40

how this very quickly has this

22:42

technology been ramping up to the

22:44

fact that like you can use

22:46

a biological brain created in a

22:48

lab to run software. And I

22:50

imagine that maybe, you know, we

22:53

might see some folks putting a

22:55

lot more research and funding into

22:57

that. I think it's fascinating. And

22:59

I do think that there, I'm

23:01

curious about the, you know, when

23:03

we talk about computing power and

23:05

needing, you know, so much energy

23:07

for crypto or AI, I want

23:09

to see of this, you know,

23:11

this kind of new biological processing

23:14

tech that's involved in it and

23:16

all. That's a great answer. I

23:18

am going to rudely answer my

23:20

own question and say that I

23:22

think signal will be the defining

23:24

tech of 2025. Everyone should download

23:26

it and use it. It's an

23:28

end-to-end encrypted communications app. If you

23:30

set disappearing messages and the head

23:32

of the FBI wants to see

23:34

your comms, he won't be able

23:37

to get them because they won't

23:39

exist. Obvious upside is privacy for

23:41

journalists, researchers, congressionally, anyone who might

23:43

come under the eye of Soron

23:45

from the administration, the downside is

23:47

that there's probably going to be

23:49

a lot of communications that journalists

23:51

have relied on being able to

23:53

get out of the government, whether

23:55

via the Freedom of Information Act

23:57

or even discovery in lawsuits, that

24:00

is just not going to exist.

24:02

And in the long term, this

24:04

might even be a pretty significant

24:06

challenge for historians and archivists, though

24:08

probably no one is too concerned

24:10

about them right now, although they

24:12

should be. We'll be right back

24:14

to talk more about what's coming

24:16

up in Trump's second term. Hey

24:25

everyone, if you like what you're

24:27

hearing, make sure to follow Wired

24:29

Politics Lab and rate it on

24:31

your podcast app of choice. Thanks.

24:33

Welcome back to Wired Politics Lab.

24:35

Let's get right into it. Which

24:38

of the Trump cabinet picks, assuming

24:40

they're all confirmed, are you going

24:42

to be watching most closely and

24:44

why? Let's start with you, McKenna.

24:46

I am going to pay the

24:48

most attention to who was expected

24:50

to be the new FCC chair

24:52

Brendan Carr. He posts all the

24:55

time on X, how much he

24:57

wants to expand Starlink and Elon

24:59

Musk's technology. And he also talks

25:01

about he's gone after TikTok. He's

25:03

also of the mind that the

25:05

FCC can regulate online speech. which

25:07

is something that it has never

25:10

done before and is not necessarily

25:12

in its charter. So I am

25:14

curious to see how far this

25:16

goes, or if it is this

25:18

realignment Republican conservative mask that he

25:20

may have been wearing for the

25:22

last couple of years. How about

25:24

you, David? There's just so many

25:27

to pick from. Like what is

25:29

Kimberly Gilfoil going to do as

25:31

ambassador to Greece? That worries me

25:33

a little bit of this. I

25:35

think for me I'm going to

25:37

be very closely looking at what

25:39

Cash Patel does as the head

25:41

of the FBI. No more so

25:44

for the reason that his appointment

25:46

has reinvigorated the Q&NAN community to

25:48

an extent I haven't seen it

25:50

in quite a long while because

25:52

he's obviously quite linked to our

25:54

community. He's given it support in

25:56

two Q drops. they believe that

25:58

his appointment as head of the

26:01

FBI would usher in mass arrests,

26:03

public executions, and this glorious new

26:05

age for America. I am going

26:07

to be keeping it on RFK,

26:09

Jr. because he has said he's

26:11

going to stop the FDA's war

26:13

on sunshine, and I want to

26:16

know how he carries that up.

26:18

One of the big questions is

26:20

whether the Trump Justice Department, under

26:22

figures like Pam Bondi and Cash

26:24

Patel, will pursue investigations of his

26:26

political rivals, his enemies, and various

26:28

people he has claimed he will

26:30

bring the weight of the law

26:33

against. What do you think, David?

26:35

I think if they can, they

26:37

will, like one of the things

26:39

that they come back to constantly

26:41

is this idea that they are

26:43

going to, you know, eradicate the

26:45

deep state, which is this kind

26:47

of amorphous term for someone within

26:50

the Justice Department or the federal

26:52

government that has been working against

26:54

Trump, which is, you know, that's

26:56

core Q&NAN conspiracy belief, which has

26:58

now become Republican Orthodoxy that there

27:00

is this deep state working against

27:02

Trump and he is fighting back

27:05

against them. And Pam Bondi and

27:07

Cash Patel are two of the

27:09

most loyal figures within Trump world

27:11

and they are from what they

27:13

have said publicly willing to do

27:15

exactly what he wants. Now he

27:17

said in I think meet the

27:19

press interview during the week that

27:22

he wouldn't be directing them but

27:24

at the same time I think

27:26

a minute later said that he

27:28

wanted the people who were involved

27:30

in the January 6th meeting to

27:32

be prosecuted. So he's clearly got

27:34

a list of people he wants

27:36

to investigate and Pam Bondi and

27:39

Cash Patel seem to be willing

27:41

to do whatever he asked them.

27:43

Now whether they're allowed to do

27:45

it from a legal perspective, I

27:47

think that's up in the air

27:49

at the moment. Yeah, McKenna, what

27:51

do you see as barriers either

27:53

legal or political with investigations here?

27:56

I don't know. That is a

27:58

hard one because. are norms? What

28:00

are systems anymore? I think that's

28:02

a great answer, honestly. I think

28:04

we should just move on. So

28:06

one thing we've covered extensively this

28:08

year is the Stop the Steel

28:11

movement, which has been regrouping in

28:13

the wake of Trump's victory. David,

28:15

I imagine you have some predictions

28:17

on where the movement goes from

28:19

here. First, who do you think

28:21

Trump is going to pick to

28:23

be his elections are, the head

28:25

of the cybersecurity and infrastructure security

28:28

agency? Is he going to go

28:30

with the my pillow guy? I,

28:32

yeah, Michael and I spoke to

28:34

him last month. He very clearly

28:36

was willing to step up into

28:38

whatever or any role that Donald

28:40

Trump is willing to give him

28:42

around elections to secure elections because.

28:45

The Stop to Steel movement is

28:47

going nowhere. They've spent four years

28:49

building this massive network, hugely well

28:51

funded and influential, and with a

28:53

network of tens of thousands, hundreds

28:55

of thousands of volunteers all across

28:57

the country. They're already talking about

29:00

the midterm elections in 2026 and

29:02

the fact that the war isn't

29:04

over, that everything they've done until

29:06

now has only proven that the

29:08

system was corrupt in 2020 and

29:10

that they need to continue to

29:12

make improvements to it. So the

29:14

stop to steal movement is going

29:17

nowhere. Whether Trump appoint someone specifically

29:19

to oversee elections, I don't know.

29:21

You know, it's the fact that

29:23

he's won now I think is

29:25

one now I think is all

29:27

that he wanted, he doesn't really

29:29

care about the nuances of electoral

29:31

law across the country and whether

29:34

that gets better or not because

29:36

at the moment at least come

29:38

2028 he won't be running for

29:40

election again. McKenna, Trump has obviously

29:42

been made a sort of temporary

29:44

monarch by the Supreme Court which

29:46

has said that pretty much anything

29:48

he does as president or at

29:51

least anything he can semi-plausible. was

29:53

official business, he can't be held

29:55

accountable for it. He's immune from

29:57

prosecution. Is there anything you can

29:59

think of that he would do

30:01

that would cause a significant backlash

30:03

even among his supporters and want

30:06

to differentiate between two classes of

30:08

supporters, one being the public, especially

30:10

the hardcore MAGA base and the

30:12

other congressional Republicans who, unlike him,

30:14

have elections to look at? At

30:16

this point, I do think Trump

30:18

can get away with anything. When

30:20

he was running for president the

30:23

first time, he said that he

30:25

could shoot someone in the middle

30:27

of Fifth Avenue and get away

30:29

with it. And with all of

30:31

the lawsuits and court appearances and

30:33

everything, indictments that he's undergone over

30:35

the last couple years, he's gotten

30:37

away scot-free. So I have a

30:40

hard time believing anything can catch

30:42

him at this point. I agree

30:44

with McKenna, I think he could

30:46

shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and

30:48

get away with it. I think

30:50

he can do pretty much anything

30:52

he wants because he'll be able

30:55

to blame anyone, everyone for failing

30:57

to complete the promises. Like for

30:59

example, the mass deportations that he's

31:01

promising, you know, there's this record,

31:03

this belief out there that on

31:05

day one there's going to be

31:07

these massive sweeps of... immigrant communities

31:09

and they're going to get rid

31:12

of a million people in the

31:14

first year according to JD Vance.

31:16

But when that doesn't happen and

31:18

it won't happen, then people will

31:20

just either forget about it and

31:22

move on or Trump will claim

31:24

that he's doing something in the

31:26

background and it's happening and people

31:29

don't see it. These Trump supporters

31:31

have been so convinced and so

31:33

brainwashed over the years to believe

31:35

anything he tells me. I actually

31:37

just thought of one thing. Part

31:39

of the Heritage Foundation's plan for

31:41

a Trump administration was to ban

31:43

porn. And with all the child

31:46

safety bills that are going to

31:48

affect, like if they actually get

31:50

passed next year and we're required

31:52

to do this online verification and

31:54

porn gets banned, I can definitely

31:56

see some people being pretty upset

31:58

and being mad. I agree with

32:01

that. I will also differ with

32:03

the two of you in that

32:05

I think foreign adventurism, the whole

32:07

machinery of the imperial presidency, tends

32:09

toward it, no matter what Trump's

32:11

anti-war rhetoric is. It's also matched

32:13

by him loosely talking about things

32:15

like invading Mexico. And with all

32:18

the chaos in the world, especially

32:20

in the Middle East, I think

32:22

there's... a reasonably high percentage of

32:24

something going catastrophicly wrong involving the

32:26

U.S. military that gets hung around

32:28

his neck. And I think that

32:30

would have the potential to really

32:32

scramble what seemed to be very

32:35

set politics right now. But do

32:37

you think Tim would make any

32:39

difference because Trump's not going to

32:41

care if people turn on him,

32:43

especially his voters, because he doesn't

32:45

need them anymore? I don't think

32:47

he does, but he does need

32:50

Congress, which is pretty deferential right

32:52

now, but that can turn, and

32:54

we have seen that turn very

32:56

quickly. So I'll just say there's

32:58

some potential there. Christian nationalists helped

33:00

Trump win the White House this

33:02

year, just like they did in

33:04

2016. What do you think they're

33:07

going to demand from Trump as

33:09

payment? And will they get it?

33:11

How about you, McKenna. We may

33:13

have just answered that question. I

33:16

think there's two things, right? Maybe

33:18

actually putting forth a federal abortion

33:21

ban. That is definitely something that

33:23

I imagine Christian nationals wanting. They're

33:25

already pushing for those kinds of

33:27

things. And then, of course, like

33:29

I mentioned, a porn ban. And

33:32

so I imagine, you know, those

33:34

are maybe the two big things.

33:36

David? I think quite a sizable

33:38

proportion of them will want more.

33:40

I think especially education is where

33:43

they'll want major shift towards the

33:45

right in terms of putting Christianity

33:47

back at the center of the

33:49

education system. We're already seeing it

33:51

in Florida where Liberty University has

33:54

a Christian university, has signed contracts

33:56

with certain public school boards in

33:58

the state and that allows their

34:00

students to go into schools in

34:02

Florida and teach classes and take

34:05

part in the education there. So

34:07

there's already beginning to be a

34:09

bit of creep there in terms

34:11

of Christian ideology making its way

34:13

into public schools and I think

34:16

that's where a lot of the

34:18

Christian nationalists I listen to at

34:20

least want to see the biggest

34:22

change. Finally, this is a very

34:24

important one for me personally. Will

34:27

Trump's administration finally declassify information about

34:29

UFOs and the JFK assassination? We're

34:31

talking Roswell, hidden files, videotapes, all

34:33

sorts of things that are rumored

34:35

to exist. And if so, what's

34:38

in there? David? What's in there?

34:40

Oh wow, that's a big question.

34:42

Like, they promised to do it.

34:44

I guess there's a chance that

34:46

they will. If they do, I

34:49

don't think there's going to be

34:51

proof of aliens. Sorry, Tim. What

34:53

about you, McKenna? I feel like

34:55

I have this folk story in

34:58

my head, and maybe it's real.

35:00

I need to check, but Jimmy

35:02

Carter, upon entering office, he saw

35:04

some UFO files and wept, and

35:06

he never said anything about it

35:09

again. I believe I've heard this

35:11

too. Yeah, and I don't know

35:13

if it's real. I just tried

35:15

to do some searching. And thinking

35:17

about Trump finding these things out,

35:20

I don't know if he wouldn't

35:22

release them. I wouldn't be optimistic.

35:24

I don't believe they're going to

35:26

release anything because he was already

35:28

president and did not release the

35:31

material in question. I believe that

35:33

what the secret files would show

35:35

if declassified is that the U.S.

35:37

engaged in a cover-up of Lee

35:39

Harvey Oswald and his relationship to

35:42

the Soviet Union in fears that

35:44

if it were made public, it

35:46

would lead to a nuclear war

35:48

and that much of the subsequent

35:50

cover-up has been a cover-up of

35:53

the cover-up. And I believe that

35:55

the UFO files would show that

35:57

extraterrestrial biological entities crashed in New

35:59

Mexico. in the 1940s

36:01

and led the U.S. government

36:04

on a voyage of discovery

36:06

about the nature of the

36:08

universe that includes aliens having

36:10

created well-known religious figures throughout

36:12

human history as guides to

36:14

give humans instructions on how

36:16

not to damage their bodies

36:18

which are containers for souls

36:20

that aliens are harvesting for

36:23

energy. This has been... The

36:25

theory at least that many

36:27

UFO proponents have been putting

36:29

out there since the 1980s,

36:31

and I of course firmly

36:33

believe it's true, maybe Donald

36:35

Trump will confirm that. McKenna

36:37

and David, thank you so

36:39

much for being here. When

36:42

we come back, it's time

36:44

for our last ever conspiracy

36:46

of the week. We

36:51

just lived through a truly wild

36:53

presidential race, hitting a Democrat who

36:55

wasn't on the ballot until June,

36:57

and a Republican who was convicted

36:59

on 34 felony counts just before

37:01

receiving his party's nomination for president.

37:03

But the wildest thing might have

37:05

been this guy. If you already

37:07

believe in the Constitution, You're just

37:10

signing something you already believe, and

37:12

you can win a million dollars.

37:14

That's awesome. I'm Max Chaffkin, and

37:16

this is Citizen Elon, a three-part

37:18

series from Elon Inc., where we

37:20

investigate Elon Musk's unprecedented support for

37:22

Donald Trump. Follow Elon Inc. on

37:24

Apple Podcast, or wherever you like

37:26

to listen. Welcome back to Wired

37:28

Politics Lab. This is Conspiracy of

37:30

the Week, that part of the

37:33

show, where our guests bring their

37:35

favorite conspiracy theories, and I will

37:37

be judging in Leah's place. The

37:39

winter this week gets to brag

37:41

about it forever. So I hope

37:43

both you brought something good. McKenna,

37:45

let's start with you. Yeah, I'm

37:47

glad that you brought up aliens

37:49

in the JFK assassination because I'm

37:51

going to complete the trifecta with

37:53

this. One of the conspiracy theories

37:56

that I think has gotten, it's

37:58

time in the sky, shall we

38:00

say, this year has been chem

38:02

trails. are the trails that planes

38:04

leave as they fly in the

38:06

sky. Apparently spreading all of these

38:08

chemicals and ruining and poisoning us

38:10

when really it is just water

38:12

vapor. Just earlier this year with

38:14

the hurricane in North Carolina there

38:16

were conspiracies about chem trails taking

38:19

place there. Lawmakers in Tennessee passed

38:21

a bill having to do with

38:23

something and regulating chem trails crazy

38:25

stuff. But this week, oh my

38:27

gosh, I lost it when I

38:29

saw this. There was what appeared

38:31

to be a satirical joke online

38:33

about a left concept, pilot, denying

38:35

to spray kem trails on his

38:37

side while piloting a plate. He

38:39

took a grandstand apparently and said,

38:41

I will not do it. And

38:44

the chemtrail, I guess we can

38:46

call it the chemtrail community, was

38:48

really thrilled with it. And it's

38:50

not true. It was a joke.

38:53

Yeah. All right. What do you

38:55

got, David? I just want to

38:58

say that chemtrels in Ireland, conspiracy

39:00

groups right now are huge. We

39:02

seem to suddenly have the conspiracy

39:04

groups here in Ireland seem to

39:07

discover chemtrel, so I must share

39:09

that with them because they love

39:11

it. So yeah, my conspiracy this

39:14

week, cast a-dew with Luigi Mangion,

39:16

who is the alleged shooter in

39:18

the United Healthcare CEO assassination. Almost

39:20

immediately there were a ton of

39:23

conspiracy theories about the fact that

39:25

he wasn't the actual shooter. He

39:27

was either a Patsy that you

39:30

know Nancy Pelosi had placed there

39:32

because of her links to his

39:34

family or many other conspiracies. My

39:36

favorite one was the conspiracies who

39:39

started analyzing his eyebrows because in

39:41

the pictures that first came out

39:43

before he was identified, you know,

39:45

you could only see his eyes.

39:48

So his eyebrows were kind of

39:50

this big thing where people were

39:52

looking at his eyebrows and because

39:55

they're quite, you know, impressive. But

39:57

now when his identity had been

39:59

are zooming in on his eyebrows

40:01

and claiming that it's not the

40:04

same person. They have done a

40:06

hair-by-hair analysis in some cases where

40:08

people are looking at the eyebrows

40:10

and saying that this cannot be

40:13

the same person. a vowed eyebrow

40:15

expert on telegram who are claiming

40:17

that this is absolutely 100% not

40:20

the same person. And as our

40:22

colleague Teso and told me this

40:24

morning, there is a conspiracy around

40:26

that there is an eyebrow assassination

40:29

group or a group of assassins

40:31

with magnificent eyebrows that he is

40:33

a part of. So I'm looking

40:36

forward to seeing where this eyebrow

40:38

conspiracy goes in the future. Okay,

40:40

I'm sorry McKenna, but I think

40:42

we have a clear winner here,

40:45

eyebrow, forensics, assassins who can be

40:47

identified by their magnificent eyebrows. It's

40:49

the new phrenology. That is a

40:51

great final conspiracy of the week,

40:54

and I think with that, thank

40:56

you again for joining me today,

40:58

and thank you for having joined

41:01

Politics Lab all throughout the year.

41:03

Do you have any final words

41:05

for our listeners? I will plug

41:07

one last thing, and that will

41:10

be the newsletter. I would also

41:12

urge everyone to subscribe to McKenna's

41:14

newsletter because it's really great and

41:16

I would like people to continue

41:19

spreading the craziest conspiracy theories online

41:21

because it keeps me entertained every

41:23

week. This

41:28

is our last episode of Wired Politics

41:30

Lab. Leah, our usual host, was unfortunately

41:32

unable to be here today, but she

41:34

did pass along a note to share

41:36

with you, which I will now read.

41:38

She says, my favorite part of hosting

41:40

this podcast was being able to bring

41:42

wired stories from across the newsroom, and

41:44

particularly the politics desk, to this entirely

41:46

new format. While this podcast

41:48

is ending, these stories aren't going anywhere. These reporters

41:50

aren't going anywhere. And with Trump 2.0 looming on

41:53

the horizon, we're more committed than ever to addressing

41:55

extremism, disinformation, fascism, the rise

41:57

of Elon Musk, the the rise

41:59

of Trumpism, the the rise

42:02

of bros, and and even

42:04

the rise of Peanut the squirrel,

42:06

and dissecting that for

42:08

all our audiences. A

42:10

shout out to you, our listeners, who decided to

42:13

take a chance on this podcast. this This was such

42:15

a privilege. a I'm able to offer a few pieces

42:17

of advice for the coming year. for the Keep an eye

42:19

on the news, but not too much. but Keep an

42:21

eye on your friends eye a bit. Keep

42:23

your family and loved ones close,

42:25

and find things that bring you joy.

42:27

things that feel free to write to

42:29

me to write to me at Leah underscore Figer.com. I so I

42:31

so look forward to hearing from

42:33

you, and thanks for listening. And

42:36

that does it for Wired Politics

42:38

Lab. You can still find You can

42:41

coverage online, and by signing up

42:43

for the Wired Politics and by which

42:45

McKenna writes each week. Wired If

42:47

you have a moment, please subscribe

42:49

to our other podcast, each week. If Valley,

42:51

which is excellent. Special thanks to

42:53

our producer Jake Harper and the

42:55

rest of our production team that

42:57

made the show possible. Special thanks to our

42:59

our studio engineer. Harper the rest episode.

43:01

Steven Valentino is our the producer. Prand

43:03

is is of audio at at Conde Nast.

43:05

I'm Tim Marchman. Thanks for listening to

43:07

the show. the show. Hey,

43:22

Hey there, if If you're enjoying Wired

43:24

Politics Lab, Lab, another podcast I want

43:26

to recommend to you recommend Go

43:28

Right? What Could Go show is hosted by

43:30

hosted by progress network founder Zachary director, and executive director Emma

43:32

In each episode, they sit down

43:34

with expert guests to discuss the

43:36

world's most pressing issues without resorting

43:38

to the pessimism or despair the

43:40

we hear so often. that Instead, so often.

43:42

Go Right? back go right how far

43:44

at how far society has come forward at what

43:46

it will take to achieve an

43:48

even brighter future. future. If you're

43:50

looking for a weekly dose of

43:53

optimistic ideas from smart people, listen

43:55

to What Could Go Right? go right

43:57

Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. podcasts.