0:00

There's such a power and representation and I

0:02

don't think we talk about it enough like

0:04

when you see someone that looks like you

0:06

you begin to see yourself in it and

0:09

when I was looking around there was nobody

0:11

there was no safe spaces to ask questions

0:13

but also I would always be asked funny

0:15

questions on the boat as the only black

0:18

person on the boat so either the the

0:20

wetsuits don't fit or why is your hair

0:22

like that what are you going to do

0:25

with your hair or everybody starts speaking. in

0:27

Afroquans and I'm like I don't understand and

0:29

you're kind of saying okay I need to

0:31

make space not just for me but for

0:34

all the Little zundies that are going

0:36

to come after me to live with

0:38

both courage and fear helps you to

0:40

do a lot of things It is

0:42

to see your fear witness it and

0:45

yet choose to be. Hello wisdom and

0:47

wellness family. Welcome to another episode today

0:49

I'm really excited about our conversation as

0:51

we are with an incredible woman She

0:54

calls herself or they her friends and

0:56

everybody else calls her the black mermaids

0:58

She was the first black female free

1:00

diving instructor with a mission to make

1:03

the ocean inclusive Thank you so much

1:05

for having me. It's an absolute honor

1:07

to be here. Yeah, I'm excited. I

1:09

mean, it's one thing to dive, but

1:11

then you do free diving. Firstly, before

1:13

we get into a lot of things,

1:15

what's the difference and why did you

1:17

go for the one that sounds extreme?

1:20

Interestingly enough, so if you think of

1:22

diving, scuba, you've got a tank on

1:24

your back, you're breathing the whole time,

1:26

free diving, that tank is your lungs,

1:28

and so you learn to hold your

1:30

breath for long periods of time and

1:32

you dive with it. And it's funny

1:34

because when I found this world... When I

1:36

started scuba diving, it was great, it

1:39

was amazing, but it wasn't that moment

1:41

when I'd held my breath for the

1:43

first time. And so I had to

1:45

go back to that mission, and it

1:47

just happened to be the more

1:49

extreme one, but I absolutely love it,

1:51

and it is my world. So what's the

1:53

longest you can hold your breath for?

1:56

Just over five minutes. I'm at like

1:58

five minutes, ten seconds. I don't

2:00

even think I can do a

2:02

minute. You can hold your breath

2:04

over five minutes. C comfortably,

2:06

no panicking, that's just who

2:08

you are, your calm, you're

2:10

connected. That is not true.

2:12

Everything you work for, every second

2:14

you work for. So it's continuous

2:17

training, like training your body, your

2:19

lungs, to be able to handle

2:21

high levels of carbon dioxide. And

2:23

it's probably more preparing your brain

2:25

more than anything else for the

2:27

discomfort, because your entire life, your

2:29

brain handles your breathing. And all

2:31

of a sudden, you like hand

2:33

over the keys. You're not breathing

2:35

when you think, which is, it's

2:37

great. I love it. So basically

2:39

your whole life is discomfort, the way

2:41

I sound, and I kind of like

2:43

it because my phrase for the longest

2:46

time, and even now, is always do

2:48

the hard things. I really believe that

2:50

in doing the hard things, you are

2:52

liberated in so many ways, and I

2:54

think it's the best way to live

2:56

because then you're not walking through life,

2:58

trying to avoid discomfort, trying to avoid

3:00

pain and difficulty, you actually, you live

3:02

a very open and free life. That

3:05

is right on the mark. And there's

3:07

something about that moment when in all

3:10

the moments that are uncomfortable and that

3:12

are hard. You just, you learn how

3:14

to stand in it and you welcome

3:17

it and you make space for it

3:19

because discomfort teaches us a lot about

3:21

ourselves and just everything you said.

3:24

Sure. With that being said, what's a

3:26

quote or a proverb or a verse

3:28

that guides your life and your decision

3:30

making and just who you are? I think

3:32

for me this has definitely come

3:34

as a lesson from the water.

3:36

The learning to be present. All

3:38

I have is now. And when you're

3:40

free driving, we have this tendency. You

3:42

learn to forget how the dive started

3:44

so that you can be present. If

3:47

you keep on ruminating over whatever you

3:49

did wrong at the beginning of your

3:51

dive, you don't get to the depth

3:53

that you want to go. And so

3:55

it's a funny thing. You let go

3:58

off the beginning of the end. of

4:00

your dive. So let's say you're diving

4:02

to 30, 35 meters on one breath.

4:04

You don't think about where you're going.

4:06

It's only the here and now. And even

4:09

once you get to the bottom, you are

4:11

encouraged to never look up because

4:13

when you look up, it's the most, it's

4:15

the biggest body of water you've ever seen

4:17

in your life and you have to dive,

4:19

you have to like swim back all the

4:22

way to the top. And the more your

4:24

brain sees how far it is, the more

4:26

your brain begins begins to panic. It is

4:28

to focus on the now. The now is

4:31

all you have. It creates all the futures

4:33

you could ever imagined, but it allows you

4:35

to tell the past stories with so much

4:37

more intention. When you present, you're present to

4:40

the gift. When you're present, you're

4:42

present to the gift. There's so many things

4:44

that I'm just picking up and just the

4:46

way you're sharing. I can see how you

4:48

pick up so much wisdom just from nature.

4:51

And I want you to connect the two.

4:53

When you're in the water,

4:55

when you're diving, what dangers

4:57

have you experienced from looking

4:59

back? And I want you to connect

5:02

that to life. Oh, I think for me

5:04

the biggest danger has always been

5:06

in my head. So like I

5:08

dive with sharks. I'm deep in

5:10

the water. There's so many things

5:12

that can happen. You just see

5:14

this random shadow coming in the

5:16

dark. You know, and you're like,

5:18

what is that? And it's a shark.

5:20

And you're like, hey buddy, what's. But

5:22

I think there's something about your

5:25

mind. For me, the danger's always

5:27

been in the mind. When you

5:29

take things from the world or

5:32

you take situations, circumstances, anything that's

5:34

happening in your world, and you

5:36

take it down to the bottom

5:39

of the sea, both can't coexist.

5:41

You can't both be present and

5:43

be wherever else you want to

5:45

be. And so that for me was the

5:48

biggest teaching of a lifetime that

5:50

just the space off of... Yeah,

5:53

you have to be present. You have to be

5:55

with your breath. You have to train your mind

5:57

to be where you wanted to be and the

5:59

danger. is always when you are not

6:01

present to what you're doing. That's the

6:03

danger. And even with sharks, like we're

6:06

taught this flight or flight response. And

6:08

so when you see this huge shadow,

6:10

your brain is like, oh my heaven,

6:12

what is that? It's going to, you

6:14

have to rein your brain in. And

6:17

then whatever comes forward, there's a pause.

6:19

You don't have to act immediately. If

6:21

you feel like the shark is in

6:23

a position that is in slight danger,

6:25

you swim to it. You don't panic.

6:28

You don't invite crazy things. You discipline

6:30

your mind to pause and then move.

6:32

What a beautiful, you've said such a

6:34

mouth for one. You can't be there

6:36

and here. something will happen and I

6:39

think it's such a beautiful metaphor for

6:41

life that you can't keep living in

6:43

your past and then also be moving

6:45

forward in your in your life and

6:47

also you can't be looking too far

6:50

ahead because there's no contentment in your

6:52

life and like you said even with

6:54

the shock what in your training I'm

6:56

like like my mind is just buzzing

6:58

even in your it with the shock

7:01

when it's coming you're taught to pause

7:03

to not be a reactive person but

7:05

to actually pause in the moment and

7:07

figure out where to from here but

7:09

you I mean, you're from Soweto and

7:11

you share a story about the first

7:14

time you saw the beach was at

7:16

12 years old with your sister. And

7:18

I love how you narrated the story

7:20

that when the water hits your ankle,

7:22

it's like, oh yeah, this is fun.

7:25

But as soon as it comes up

7:27

to your knees, it's like, here comes

7:29

the danger, you know, all our parents

7:31

are panicking. So I could relate to

7:33

so much of that, but for you,

7:36

it was different. So tell me about

7:38

the significance of you being exposed to

7:40

the ocean at the age of 12.

7:42

And I know at that point, you

7:44

probably didn't think, wow, this is a

7:47

moment, but looking back. Looking back, I

7:49

think it was interesting because we grow

7:51

up with these narratives around water, right?

7:53

Stay away from the sea, the snake

7:55

will take you. There's that that lives,

7:58

there's all of these stories that you

8:00

grow up with, but to witness the

8:02

ocean's power. That's the one thing I'll

8:04

never forget. It's kind of like it's

8:06

a beautiful play when it's at your

8:09

ankle, but when it's at your knees,

8:11

you're between the panic of your parents,

8:13

your internal panic, but then there's the

8:15

question of what lives beyond the space.

8:17

Like you're just in awe, there's laughter,

8:19

but there's also fear. And so there's

8:22

something about that. And I think even

8:24

as I've grown up to now live

8:26

with the ocean, I still think about

8:28

those moments of how big she is,

8:30

how powerful she is. And for all

8:33

the lessons and learnings we may have,

8:35

she's still the boss. And she's always

8:37

the boss. And I think that for

8:39

me is something that I bring into

8:41

my everyday life because to live with

8:44

both courage and fear helps you to

8:46

do a lot of things. It is

8:48

to see your fear witness it and

8:50

yet choose to be. Choose to continue

8:52

along your journey. And so that's the

8:55

mixture of those two worlds from a

8:57

young age, but the courage to still

8:59

move, to not let that fear make

9:01

you small. Tell me in your upbringing,

9:03

did you ever, and after that experience,

9:06

did you ever think I want to

9:08

work in the ocean? Did you ever

9:10

think there's such a career as what

9:12

you're doing or did you have something

9:14

else in mind? I did not even

9:17

know that this kind of world could

9:19

ever exist. Forget like in other communities,

9:21

even just for me, I didn't know

9:23

that it's a world that you could

9:25

live and work in. And so it

9:28

was a beautiful surprise when you know

9:30

I went on my first ever snorkel

9:32

trip I'm 28 years old I'm freaking

9:34

out and then when I come back

9:36

from it I'm in love I'm like

9:38

so what do people do after this

9:41

you know I'm calling up friends so

9:43

what do you all do after snorkeling

9:45

everyone's like scuba and then I started

9:47

scuba diving and then leading my way

9:49

finding my place in free diving and

9:52

just knowing yeah that I was going

9:54

to leave everything I left the world

9:56

I knew to chase her and it

9:58

changed everything for me. We

10:01

worked in diversity and inclusion work, so

10:03

we worked in the power industry helping

10:06

everybody have the hard discussions around race

10:08

and identity and how everybody shows up

10:10

in the workspace Beautiful fulfilling space that

10:12

I think I still do today. Yeah,

10:15

everything has merged so beautifully and I

10:17

mean I think you went snorkeling in

10:19

Bali, right? Was it Bali? Yeah, so

10:22

when I saw that I was like,

10:24

okay, I guess everyone has the eat

10:26

love pray moment in Bali and you

10:29

yeah, you had yours at 28 when

10:31

you snorkeled. But from that journey, it

10:33

led you to obviously taking the diving

10:35

lessons and now an instructor. Tell me

10:38

about the leaving and like you said,

10:40

you already you already had a career

10:42

where you had a voice where you

10:45

already impactful. So leaving that journey and

10:47

deciding, okay, I'm going to. an instructor

10:49

and I'm going to be a first

10:51

black female in my country. What does

10:54

that look like? What kind of fear

10:56

are you dealing with? What kind of

10:58

opposition are you dealing with? Not just

11:01

externally, but even mentally. I definitely have

11:03

to say, you know, thank you, that's

11:05

such a beautiful question. So it was

11:07

twofold, right? There's the internal fear. So

11:10

in order to qualify to be a

11:12

free diving instructor, you have to get

11:14

down to 32 meters. on one breath,

11:17

but you have to do it in

11:19

mastery. So there's no panic. You're just

11:21

like in the Zen mood. And as

11:23

much as in the beginning, I was

11:26

diving deeper than everybody in that group

11:28

at that time, my mind, every time

11:30

I got to 23 meters, where I

11:33

had my computer on, whether I could

11:35

not get past 23 meters, I would

11:37

just open my eyes and I'd start

11:40

panicking, surfacing to the top. And it

11:42

was interesting because my instructor said to

11:44

me. Don't ask me to react to

11:46

your fears. I see a different Zandi.

11:49

So don't hold up your fears to

11:51

me and expect me to react. It

11:53

changed my thinking. so much, right? Like

11:56

keep your issues with you, with you.

11:58

I see where you are going, but

12:00

don't let your fears, you know, make

12:02

boo with me. Yeah. And so that

12:05

was the journey, but simultaneously there was

12:07

the space that says we have responsibilities

12:09

outside of just ourselves when we work,

12:12

especially where I come from. So you're

12:14

helping out with family, you're helping out

12:16

with everybody. And to leave a, to

12:18

leave a well-paying job is no, is

12:21

no, It's no joke because again, it

12:23

was two things. One, I did not

12:25

even know how you make an income

12:28

in this world. I did not know

12:30

what it means to land on my

12:32

feet. I did not know what I'm

12:35

aspiring for, but what I did know

12:37

is I'm not going to work in

12:39

a dive shop. I want to bring

12:41

chains in my community. I want to

12:44

make the ocean accessible to my community.

12:46

So that was the first and only

12:48

thing I knew because I was always

12:51

the only black. on the vote. And

12:53

so we have to change the narrative,

12:55

started the foundation in 2020 after I

12:57

qualified. And I think going back, I

13:00

didn't realize that I would be South

13:02

Africa's first. I didn't. And so when

13:04

I qualified, yes, when I qualified, my

13:07

boyfriend at the time said, I don't

13:09

think I don't think there's even anyone

13:11

in Sub-Saharan Africa, and so we went

13:13

to start shaking with the different agencies,

13:16

and everyone's like, no, we don't have,

13:18

no, we don't have, no, we don't

13:20

have. And that was crazy, because you

13:23

kind of think in 2020, we're still

13:25

in the world of first. And... But

13:27

it was beautiful to know that my

13:29

call was to create the access to

13:32

the ocean space to change the narrative,

13:34

to change how we see ourselves next

13:36

to the water. I spent all of

13:39

my savings in like the first year

13:41

because I was just like, I want

13:43

to see this world, I want to

13:46

see how it's going to work out.

13:48

And then I didn't know how the

13:50

hell I was going to live. And

13:52

so I went back to the sea.

13:55

I was like, baby girl, I've given

13:57

up everything. And interestingly enough, the brand

13:59

partnership started coming along. That's when these

14:02

different opportunities started coming along and Probably

14:04

a year and a half two years

14:06

in I landed on my feet. The

14:08

foundation was doing great. I was able

14:11

to take home money It was good.

14:13

And I love that and I think

14:15

you've shared a little bit, but I

14:18

just want you to emphasize what sparked

14:20

the mission for inclusion in the ocean

14:22

and also breaking barriers. Because it's one

14:24

thing for you to be a first.

14:27

It's one thing for you to follow

14:29

your calling and say, hey, I did

14:31

this thing, it called and I answered.

14:34

But it's another thing to say, hey,

14:36

it's actually not just about me. Now

14:38

you want to include others. Why was

14:40

that important for you in your journey?

14:44

It was interesting because I think

14:46

there's such a power in representation

14:48

and I don't think we talk

14:50

about it enough like when you

14:52

see yourselves in spaces you begin

14:54

to when you see someone that

14:56

looks like you begin to see

14:58

yourself in it and when I

15:00

was looking around there was nobody

15:02

there was no safe spaces to

15:04

ask questions but also I would

15:06

always be asked funny questions on

15:08

the boat as the only black

15:10

person on the boat so either

15:12

the the wetsuits don't fit or

15:14

why is your hair like that?

15:16

What are you going to do

15:18

with your hair? Or everybody starts

15:20

speaking in Afrakans and I'm like,

15:22

I don't understand. And you're kind

15:24

of saying, okay, I need to

15:26

make space not just for me,

15:28

but for all the little zundis

15:30

that are going to come after

15:32

me, there has to be a

15:34

level of comfort in their existence.

15:36

I can't sit. and just be

15:38

like, oh, this is fantastic, I

15:40

need to push the walls. I

15:42

need to make space so that

15:44

when they come past, it's easier.

15:46

And I think that was my

15:48

journey because of the hardship of

15:50

all firsts, as I'm pretty sure

15:52

you would know, the hardship of

15:54

those firsts they carry, but in

15:56

that carry, the heaviness, you have

15:58

a duty to make sure that

16:00

the ones that come after you

16:02

don't carry the same kind of

16:04

heaviness. And so from the joy

16:06

I felt in the sea, I

16:08

wanted it. to live in my

16:10

community. And just from the dreams

16:12

that have come, I wanted that

16:14

to be accessible too. And so.

16:16

representation I guess. Yeah, beautiful. Free

16:18

diving obviously requires a lot of

16:20

discipline and skill, but mostly as

16:22

we've already touched, it requires being

16:24

present and connected to yourself, and

16:26

connected to whatever's happening around you.

16:28

How do you continue to cultivate

16:31

those skills in those disciplines? Because

16:33

I don't think it's a one

16:35

sort of thing where you go

16:37

to training and you're taught, but

16:39

there's a lot of, from what

16:41

you're saying, there's a lot of

16:43

discipline in mind. that's required. So

16:45

how do you daily cultivate that?

16:47

I journal and I wake up

16:49

almost every morning to my nose

16:51

clip. So the training happens almost

16:53

every morning in bed and you're

16:55

trying to see where your body

16:57

is and you're working with your

16:59

breath. So for me, I think

17:01

as a practice, it's my breath

17:03

training, but also journaling. I believe

17:05

we don't speak everything that we

17:07

feel. Some things you write down

17:09

and you sit and you be

17:11

with it before you speak about

17:13

it. And I think that's why

17:15

journaling is an important practice, but

17:17

also, you know, asking more questions

17:19

about everything, being more intentional about

17:21

everything. Where does my food come

17:23

from? Where does this water come

17:25

from? How can I be better

17:27

with this? How can I be

17:29

better with this? How can it?

17:31

It's the continuous space of the

17:33

ocean has gifted me so much.

17:35

What can I do in return?

17:37

We can create access, but in

17:39

my everyday world, what do I

17:41

do to protect her better? How

17:43

do I advocate for her protection

17:45

in communities where people might never

17:47

see her face, face to face?

17:49

So it's the continuous work of...

17:51

kind of having found the love

17:53

of your life and every day

17:55

you hold up a flower to

17:57

her to say I see you

17:59

I love you and and so

18:01

it's just that continuous work I

18:03

get so much good I'm getting

18:05

like you I think your use

18:07

of words really excites me and

18:09

your metaphors and how you pick

18:11

up so many lessons from life,

18:13

but I think what I'm recognizing

18:15

at the heart of it is

18:17

that you live with so much

18:19

intention. And in purpose, you know,

18:22

we always speak this word, living

18:24

in my purpose, and we think

18:26

it's this big platform and thing,

18:28

but what I'm understanding and I'm

18:30

getting from you is that for

18:32

you... eating an apple is purposeful.

18:34

Like, where does this apple come

18:36

from? How can I give back?

18:38

And from that, I want to

18:40

get into the Woolwoods Farming for

18:42

the Future initiative that you happen

18:44

to be part of. I want

18:46

to know why. Why did you

18:48

choose to partner with Woolwoods on

18:50

this initiative? And why is it

18:52

significant for you personally for South

18:54

Africa now and the South Africa

18:56

of the future? I think there's

18:58

so many parts. When I think

19:00

of the ocean, our freshwater bodies

19:02

all come from the sea, right?

19:04

But South Africa is also a

19:06

water scarce country. A lot of

19:08

people don't realize that we're water

19:10

scarce country. And so how we

19:12

say water in our everyday life

19:14

contributes to the future. But when

19:16

you look at the fresh produce

19:18

that we eat, there's a lot

19:20

of sprays, pesticides that are used

19:22

that run down into communities affecting

19:24

communities. Then it runs down to

19:26

the sea. affecting the sea. And

19:28

so for me, it's like a

19:30

circle of life that says as

19:32

we consume, all other parts consume

19:34

around us and how are we

19:36

being good custodians, you know, to

19:38

other communities and other life sources.

19:40

And so for me, when Woolleys

19:42

came up to me, I said,

19:44

this sounds fantastic. You know, how

19:46

could this apple save the world?

19:48

It's the intentionality behind it. We

19:50

asked the questions. Where does this

19:52

come? from? What is it that

19:54

you're doing to help us think

19:56

and dream differently for the future?

19:58

You think about the droughts that

20:00

we had. So Cape Town, obviously,

20:02

I think it was in 2017,

20:04

2018, where they were like, there

20:06

was no water. And so what

20:08

are the lessons that were learning

20:10

along the journey? and how are

20:12

we better prepared for the future?

20:15

And so when they said, come

20:17

with us, come see what we

20:19

do, come see what our farmers

20:21

are doing, I was like, bet,

20:23

bet, because you want to know,

20:25

you know, we know that Willis

20:27

has an incredible brand, it seems

20:29

sustainable, but what is it that

20:31

makes them sustainable? Yeah, what is

20:33

a sustainable thing? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

20:35

Yes, you're not using plastic fantastic.

20:37

Everybody has reusable bags. What else?

20:39

tell us more and I wanted

20:41

to know more and I think

20:43

that curiosity drives everything I do

20:45

and so to be able to

20:47

go on that journey was powerful.

20:49

And I want to understand what

20:51

this farming for the future initiative

20:53

how does it affect the everyday

20:55

person and I mean there's a

20:57

whole thing. I love that you

20:59

spoke about the bag where we

21:01

use our willies bags and I

21:03

think with the space of TikTok

21:05

and social media, consumerism is really

21:07

pushed like we're consuming a lot.

21:09

People are always doing grocery holes

21:11

etc. And I want to understand

21:13

how does this farming for the

21:15

future initiative impact us on a

21:17

daily? In a broken down language

21:19

for the everyday person who just

21:21

picks up a bag and goes

21:23

shopping. What is words trying? to

21:25

achieve with this initiative to the

21:27

everyday person. Because not all of

21:29

us are farmers, so it's so

21:31

easy. And I think that's part

21:33

of my mission for this year

21:35

is to break down the barrier

21:37

language. Because when we think of

21:39

sustainability, future, we think it's somebody

21:41

else's responsibility, but it's actually affecting

21:43

us on a daily basis. And

21:45

so my really what I'm asking

21:47

you to do is to break

21:49

it down in such a way

21:51

that the next time I go

21:53

towards to go get my weekly

21:55

groceries, there's thought behind it. There's

21:57

intention. behind it. There's understanding that

21:59

it's not just about this moment,

22:01

it's not just about getting the

22:03

most yellow banana. There's so much

22:06

more happening behind. I love that

22:08

question so much because I'm a

22:10

big let's not jargon things. So

22:12

farming for the future looks at

22:14

four things, right? So it looks

22:16

at water, it looks at soil,

22:18

it looks at carbon emissions, and

22:20

it looks at biodiversity. So let's

22:22

start at water. So I'm going

22:24

to speak to the farm that

22:26

I went to go visit. They

22:28

catch every single piece of water

22:30

that they... Can you say every

22:32

single piece of water? Peace, yeah!

22:34

So they catch the water that

22:36

they use to spray on their

22:38

fresh produce, right? So obviously to

22:40

keep everything hydrated, they spray the

22:42

water, but they don't let that

22:44

water go to waste. Why? Because

22:46

we're a water discussed country. So

22:48

they take that water, they clean

22:50

it up, and they reuse it

22:52

back in their plant systems, which

22:54

to me was incredible, because it's

22:56

so easy to let that water

22:58

go. Because there's more coming out

23:00

the dams, and there's more. Exactly.

23:02

And when you say how does

23:04

that affect me and you, it

23:06

says that the way in which

23:08

we farm and the strategies that

23:10

we're able to bring in to

23:12

make sure that you use less

23:14

and less water, like they have

23:16

these little tomatoes and they have

23:18

a drip system, right? They have

23:20

a drip system. They're not just

23:22

watering all of the tomatoes. They

23:24

have a drip system to make

23:26

sure that they minimize the amount

23:28

of water that they do use

23:30

when they do use it. So

23:32

it's thinking about the future because

23:34

again. were a water-scarred country. So

23:36

that for me was incredibly encouraging.

23:38

So they bring in that water,

23:40

they clean it up, and they

23:42

use it again. That was one

23:44

too. It was interesting because then

23:46

we got to this another greenhouse

23:48

and it is funny because in

23:50

nature... This is the rainy farm

23:52

in Powell, right? Yes, we were

23:54

in Powell at the rainy's farm.

23:56

And it was interesting because was

23:59

it... Was it tomatoes? I think

24:01

it was tomatoes. So in nature,

24:03

so biomimicry, biomimicry is this study

24:05

that says we look at nature

24:07

in how she... sustains and we

24:09

replicate those things in our worlds

24:11

and so that we remain in

24:13

touch with nature to see that

24:15

was beautiful because on an ordinary

24:17

day you'd have these I think

24:19

bumblebees that come to like pollinate

24:21

the flowers so they allow for

24:23

the flowers to the pollen to

24:25

go from one flower to the

24:27

next so that they can procreate

24:29

our little tomatoes right yeah and

24:31

they have this like this blower

24:33

and they like kind of blow

24:35

the air so that it would

24:37

it mimics the action the bees

24:39

would do outside in order for

24:41

us to be able to you

24:43

know get still large amounts of

24:45

produce but for me it was

24:47

kind of looking to see how

24:49

they utilize space how they utilize

24:51

water how they take lessons from

24:53

nature to ensure that they're able

24:55

to bring out the best produce

24:57

possible and if you allow for

24:59

cleaner ways of farming farming They've

25:01

got these manual flight traps, but

25:03

they are working in partnership with

25:05

Wollies to get to a fully

25:07

natural way of capturing these bugs

25:09

that can eat up the produce,

25:11

but it's a fully natural way

25:13

and it's selective and it doesn't

25:15

take all the bugs because there

25:17

are good bugs, right? So like

25:19

with their one lettuce, I think

25:21

it's like special to woolies. It's

25:23

like this one type of lettuce,

25:25

but they bring in ladybirds to

25:27

eat other bugs. So you make

25:29

sure that your produce is as

25:31

clean as possible. So again, it's

25:33

preserving biodiversity because if you're using

25:35

all kinds of pesticides that kills

25:37

just about everything, but it also

25:39

affects the communities. I really, I

25:41

really love that. So the word

25:43

you use is biomimicking. Is the

25:45

word biomimicking? It's biomimicry Biomimicry,

25:48

okay, I learned a new word

25:50

and I'm excited about it because

25:52

I think in most of and

25:54

I recently did a a podcast

25:56

and I was talking about flourishing

25:58

and I was basically explaining the

26:00

whole process of the oak tree

26:02

and how it develops and how

26:05

it relates to our lives. And

26:07

so not only in in food

26:09

and farming. is their biomimicry, but

26:11

I'm actually going to use it

26:13

in my own life, that there's

26:15

so many lessons from nature. But

26:17

how does holistic living and we,

26:19

with wisdom and wellness, we have

26:21

five pillars that we base holistic

26:23

success and holistic living, spirituality, relationships,

26:26

etc. But how does holistic living

26:28

play a role in the commitment

26:30

to sustainable farming, right? And how

26:32

can that be basically used in

26:34

other industries? How can other industries

26:36

adapt? this way of working in

26:38

a way that is mindful? I'm

26:40

going to bring mindful because same

26:42

way in the ocean you have

26:44

to be mindful, same way in

26:47

farming and agriculture there has to

26:49

be mindfulness, how can we make

26:51

sure that this way, the system

26:53

of mindful and sustainable practices is

26:55

adapted in every other aspect? I

26:58

love that so much and I feel

27:00

like my answer might not be the

27:02

greatest answer, but it has to be

27:05

intentionality. It's how we need with everything.

27:07

When we realize that, yes, profits will,

27:09

you know, the bottom line will always

27:12

matter, but we also don't have seven

27:14

planets. So the intentionality to say, how

27:16

do we as a brand choose to

27:19

be different? How do we as a

27:21

brand separate ourselves, but also more than

27:23

just separate ourselves, help our peers learn

27:25

with us? reusing it how we are

27:28

protecting our biodiversity how we are but

27:30

it starts with intentionality the branch has

27:32

to want to do it yeah is

27:35

to realize that these oceans if we

27:37

don't take care of them everything is

27:39

at risk the oxygen we breathe the

27:42

water that we look to for our

27:44

taps right yeah it all starts with

27:46

the sea and so the intentionality has

27:49

to move from leadership and in that

27:51

leadership it has to come into the

27:53

house, but then you hope to impact

27:56

the communities with what you work. when

27:58

you start to stand on the rooftop

28:00

and you say, hey, we did something

28:03

and I think, I think it's a

28:05

good thing. And we should again be

28:07

cheerleaders to brands that are trying, pushing,

28:10

moving to not only be sustainable, but

28:12

regenerative. And it's in our coin that

28:14

we're able to vote differently, I think.

28:17

I think I actually, I love your

28:19

aunt, I saw a picture, there's a

28:21

page on TikTok that actually shares the

28:24

before and after of Johannesburg and it

28:26

goes to like I think your Jovil

28:28

and your heel brow and how the

28:31

buildings used to look like 10 years

28:33

ago less than how they look now.

28:35

And that for me was a wake-up

28:38

call that we take for granted, like

28:40

in fact libraries, you know, when I

28:42

was in metric I studied at a

28:45

library and now. We're losing libraries and

28:47

it's. We're not realizing how easily we

28:49

are losing things that are so meaningful

28:52

and impactful in our communities. Rinos, at

28:54

some point, we're going to say to

28:56

our kids, there was an animal called

28:59

a rhino. And so like you're saying,

29:01

even with the ocean, we don't want

29:03

to get to a point where we

29:06

say the ocean used to look like

29:08

this and all we have is pictures

29:10

instead of the natural experiences that we

29:12

get to have. But what does conservation

29:15

look like in your daily life from

29:17

the food that you decide to eat?

29:19

the products that you use and even

29:22

the work that you do. I love,

29:24

I love that question. So for me,

29:26

it is, so there's an app called

29:29

WWF Sassy. So intentionality is asking, where

29:31

does my fish come from? What kind

29:33

of fish is it? is it in

29:36

high abundance? Is it on the red

29:38

list? Is it orange? And I think

29:40

that's how you're able to select and

29:43

choose in line with the ocean and

29:45

the bounty that is in nature. So

29:47

for me, that's where it starts. Where

29:50

does your meat come from? You know,

29:52

where do your apples come from? So

29:54

I ask a lot of questions. So

29:57

that's why actually I don't always eat

29:59

out. because I've got too many questions

30:01

than people have answers. And I need

30:04

to also understand that. But I think

30:06

for me, conservation says, how can I

30:08

be more intentional? And in my community,

30:11

how do I bring everybody closer to

30:13

the ocean understanding that so many people

30:15

might never see sharks, whales, dolphins, octopus,

30:18

all of these beautiful marine life that.

30:20

you kind of get to see every

30:22

other day. How do you create a

30:25

care? How do you build a love

30:27

for a place that someone might never

30:29

see with their own eyes? And so

30:32

I think that's what a lot of

30:34

my social media is about bringing all

30:36

of the beautiful parts of the sea

30:39

closer to us and trying to tell

30:41

stories around it. And access, you know,

30:43

access in the Black Mermaid Foundation, when

30:46

the kids go out on these educational

30:48

snorke excursions, they come out and they

30:50

see what's under there. They go back

30:53

to their communities and they tell a

30:55

different story about the sea. And so

30:57

I think it's all connected. It is

30:59

the stories that we hope to leave

31:02

in the world that they might change

31:04

something, somewhere. I mean, one of, I

31:06

was, I was part of an initiative

31:09

a few years ago about diversifying your

31:11

plate, right? And we obviously speak on

31:13

each of the veggies, eat this, but

31:16

what we learned is that also in

31:18

eating potatoes every day, the soil is

31:20

not getting what it's, the soil is

31:23

getting damaged. And so it's not enough

31:25

to just say, each of ages eat

31:27

this, but we have to, we have

31:30

to get to a point where we

31:32

actually eat according to the seasons. That's

31:34

the intentionality. It's like, what's in season

31:37

now? What should I be eating now?

31:39

Am I diversifying my plate or am

31:41

I eating the same thing every day?

31:44

If I'm eating it every single day,

31:46

how is it growing so fast? That's

31:48

such, that's spot on locality as well,

31:51

right? Where does it come from? You

31:53

look at evos, I used to be

31:55

like, do you guys understand that it's

31:58

not possible that you could eat evos

32:00

all times like through the air? whole

32:02

yeah yeah yeah like but where does

32:05

it come from if it has to

32:07

be like imported what does that mean

32:09

I was in Mexico last year and

32:12

it was so interesting to hear about

32:14

their sustainability work around bees right the

32:16

honey that we all get to enjoy

32:19

it's like but this honey is a

32:21

comes from a Mayan bee and this

32:23

Mayan bee is no longer in such

32:26

high abundance and so we cannot make

32:28

honey all through the year. But if

32:30

you learn from nature, you realize that

32:33

you cannot harvest in winter because the

32:35

bees need it too. How's that? Yeah.

32:37

And I said, because I've got apple

32:40

trees and peach trees, and I don't

32:42

have peaches the whole year. I only

32:44

have peaches during, I think, from September.

32:46

That's when they start, the flowering process

32:49

happened. And then around October, November, December,

32:51

that's when we have peaches. But throughout

32:53

the rest of the year, there's no

32:56

peaches. It's just the tree doing what

32:58

it needs to do. And I think

33:00

for me, that sparked something that if

33:03

I'm eating a peach every day of

33:05

the year. Where does it come from?

33:07

Because I can see from the tree

33:10

in my garden that it's not, it's

33:12

not always blooming peaches. And I think

33:14

that breaks it down on an every

33:17

day level. Like I said, it's important

33:19

that we understand how does it affect

33:21

me. So I think the most practical

33:24

ways that look at the own garden,

33:26

look at the people who farm around

33:28

you, do they always have this or.

33:31

It's seasonal and we need to start

33:33

looking at life that way. But you

33:35

spoke about taking a tour to the

33:38

rainy farms in Powell and they obviously

33:40

practice regenerator farming. In simple, broken down

33:42

terms, what is regenerator farming and farming

33:45

and what does it look like for

33:47

me who has a backyard garden and

33:49

a large scale farmer? So

33:52

interesting, I'm going to say my

33:54

understanding. So it's not only using

33:56

something once, it's the ability to

33:58

be able to... I think have

34:00

multiple users along the way, but

34:02

it regenerates itself, right? I think

34:05

that's my understanding. But what Rennie's

34:07

did, which I absolutely loved, is

34:09

there were two things that they

34:11

did with these soil, going back

34:13

to soil, is that one, they

34:15

use alien plants, so alien plants

34:17

or plants that are not native

34:19

to South Africa, that would ordinarily

34:21

take in more water than the

34:23

native plants. dig those out, but

34:26

then they use those plants as

34:28

fertilizers. So they mix it with

34:30

the sand. So the sand remains

34:32

rich and it allows for that

34:34

soil to be. So instead of

34:36

using fertilizer, they're able to use

34:38

that soil. But more than that,

34:40

they are able to reuse that

34:42

same set of soil over two

34:44

to three seasons. So they harvest

34:47

and they plant again in the

34:49

same sand. in the same soil.

34:51

And I thought that was actually

34:53

really special because even the way

34:55

in which they do it, there's

34:57

an intentionality. The old plants, they

34:59

don't just throw them away. They

35:01

use them again to enrich the

35:03

soil. So it's really just beautiful

35:05

to see, to see the intentionality

35:08

again in how they use the

35:10

plants around them and how they

35:12

ensure the water is used right.

35:14

Yeah, the water's used right. And

35:16

he said, I think, and as

35:18

you're sharing, I'm just thinking of

35:20

my mom, every time I'm peeling

35:22

potatoes and just, or carrots, she

35:24

just says, no, don't throw away,

35:26

put it in the soil and

35:29

you create your own fertilize. So

35:31

that is regenerative farming. So it

35:33

sounds like a big word that's

35:35

reserved for the farms in Cape

35:37

Town and then, but it's like,

35:39

in your own backyard, you can

35:41

create your own, and that's regenerator.

35:43

and feel like there's nothing you

35:45

can do, but within your own

35:47

space, these are almost systems and

35:50

ways that you can really make

35:52

use of. And I wanted to

35:54

ask, how does your partnership with

35:56

Farming to the future tie into

35:58

the bigger picture of ocean conservation?

36:00

For me, it was definitely the

36:02

water aspect. So how I felt

36:04

the invitation into this conversation, it

36:06

was through water. And the question

36:08

says, how are we doing better

36:11

with the amount of water that

36:13

we do have? How are we

36:15

looking to the future to make

36:17

sure that future generations are able

36:19

to enjoy the bounty that we

36:21

get to enjoy today? And the

36:23

question starts by. What are you

36:25

doing with your wastewater? How are

36:27

you utilizing your water and your

36:29

farming practices in a way that

36:32

ensures minimum wastage? Yeah. Tell me

36:34

what you learned from the drought.

36:36

What did you implement after that

36:38

in order to make sure that

36:40

you could see a better and

36:42

more hedged future when it comes

36:44

to the instability that comes with

36:46

a changing climate, right? Yeah. We

36:48

were clearly sitting and we're witnessing

36:50

climate issues across the world. How

36:53

are we prepared for it? Because

36:55

this is directly linked to food

36:57

security. It's linked to security on

36:59

all measures and... And so I

37:01

think that for me was the

37:03

call, the pickup of the phone,

37:05

the ama come see what you're

37:07

doing, you know, the question around

37:09

what? Yeah, I love that. I

37:11

want to touch on eating as

37:14

we're about to close. I mean,

37:16

we are, we're diet frenzy generation

37:18

where we have to, you know,

37:20

eat right and most of our

37:22

eating protein diet, keto diet, all

37:24

of that is based on weight

37:26

loss and looking the aesthetic. But

37:28

outside of that, I know now

37:30

that eating well is not just

37:33

about that, it's not just about

37:35

aesthetics, but also the environment, like

37:37

you said. Can you share for

37:39

me what the ripple effect is

37:41

of eating well? The most natural

37:43

thing that I think of is

37:45

health as well, right? How we

37:47

feed our bodies is how... our

37:49

bodies are able to perform for

37:51

us. I think I often look

37:54

at my body and my gratitude

37:56

is beyond measure. This body has

37:58

done things I never thought it

38:00

could, but it starts by ensuring

38:02

that you're eating well, you're showing

38:04

up for what your body needs

38:06

at the time that it needs

38:08

it. And again, in a culture

38:10

that is so diet crazy, are

38:12

we still listening to our bodies?

38:15

And I think that kind of

38:17

goes back to nature. Are we

38:19

still listening to nature? live better

38:21

and live in harmony with nature

38:23

my grandmother says you know we've

38:25

always been good guardians we've always

38:27

lived with nature so well but

38:29

now she can't speak to us

38:31

because we've also become monsters and

38:33

so you know, when I listen

38:36

to my grandmother, there's something there.

38:38

There was a time when we

38:40

just spoke and she was loud

38:42

and we were good guardians and

38:44

now, like we started in this

38:46

conversation, we are in a big

38:48

consuming culture that doesn't give back

38:50

to nature and it doesn't think

38:52

about nature. And so in the

38:54

same way that we feed our

38:57

bodies, that same intentionality has to

38:59

exist in our bodies around what

39:01

do, how are the trees doing,

39:03

how are the oceans doing? How

39:05

are our neighboring countries doing? How

39:07

are we, you know, we have

39:09

to be intentional? Yeah, there's a

39:11

bigger picture. But it's true. Yeah,

39:13

I think there's bigger picture and

39:15

I think the time has come

39:18

and I'm so glad I've been

39:20

really engaging with a lot of

39:22

women who are in sustainability and

39:24

every time I talk to them

39:26

it allows me to do a

39:28

lot of almost cleaning in my

39:30

own heart and in my own

39:32

home. Like I started with checking

39:34

out my wardrobe and we got

39:36

into a space and one in

39:39

the influenza culture where you can't

39:41

repeat an outfit. But outside of

39:43

that when you think of the

39:45

ripple effect of that it means

39:47

you're buying clothes every day. Where

39:49

do those clothes come from? Who

39:51

is creating them? What is being

39:53

thrown away? Where is the wastage

39:55

of that? And you sit with

39:57

a closet where you're wearing an

40:00

outfit once. And it sounds like

40:02

such a simple thing, but the

40:04

space we're in of overconsumption has

40:06

a ripple effect on every single

40:08

thing that we do. And like

40:10

you said, like your grandmother said,

40:12

we used to listen to nature

40:14

and. You know, nature, nature served

40:16

us and we serve nature, but

40:18

now we're just trying to take

40:21

and take and take and take

40:23

from nature. And we're seeing the

40:25

effects of that. We're seeing the

40:27

storms. We're seeing all sorts of

40:29

ways that nature is rebelling because

40:31

we're not taking care of it.

40:33

Sure. Such an interesting question. I

40:35

think there's a lot to learn

40:37

and I'm very curious and I'm

40:39

hopeful that we're going to engage

40:42

more this year and I'm hopeful

40:44

that I'll have more of these

40:46

conversations. really learning and understanding and

40:48

inviting other people to start making

40:50

small changes. It's not to say,

40:52

go throw everything away and make

40:54

dramatic changes, but it's like you

40:56

said, asking the question, well, where

40:58

does this come from? You know,

41:00

you don't have to change everything

41:03

at once, but where does it

41:05

come from? Just that curiosity. And

41:07

lastly, you wrote a book called

41:09

Zandi's song, and I just want

41:11

to know a children's book. What

41:13

message were you trying to echo

41:15

through your book? Oh,

41:18

thank you so much for this

41:20

question. For me, it was number

41:22

one, connecting us to the ocean.

41:24

It may look over there, but

41:26

there's so much beautiful life that

41:28

lives beneath it, but I wanted

41:30

to sow the seed of conservation

41:32

and the effect of plastic in

41:34

our oceans. And so to see

41:36

how well Zandi's song has done

41:38

is so powerful because it's not

41:40

only putting in that seed of

41:42

reading and being able to read

41:44

and comprehend what you're reading, but

41:46

it's also bringing in. the first

41:48

tenets of conservation. How do we

41:50

consume and where does it go?

41:52

And so there's plastic in there

41:54

and then the beauty of the

41:56

ocean. I absolutely love it. I

41:58

love that and I think. I

42:00

think kids are the best place

42:02

to start because once kids are

42:04

invested in something the parents have

42:06

no choice but to invest. And

42:08

I'll tell you, so when my

42:10

kids, the school that they were

42:12

into, they were quite big on

42:14

teaching on pollution and littering. And

42:16

my daughter, ever since, if she

42:18

goes to a place in this

42:20

litter, she would literally want to,

42:22

she strikes a conversation on it

42:24

every single time. Mommy, I don't

42:26

understand why people littering. a picture

42:28

that they showed them an illustration

42:30

of how the earth looks and

42:32

she came home one day and

42:34

she said mom we have to

42:37

go and clean up the earth

42:39

and I mean it was like

42:41

okay darling baby we'll go clean

42:43

up the earth but for me

42:45

I love that already kids have

42:47

that mindset that we have to

42:49

take care of the space so

42:51

I think it's incredible that you

42:53

did it you you created a

42:55

children's book where the dialogue starts

42:57

and ultimately the parents will have

42:59

to start getting involved as well

43:01

and oh My last few questions,

43:03

overcoming fear is obviously big in

43:05

your journey, starting from just the

43:07

diving, the 23 meters where you

43:09

had to call yourself out. How

43:11

has it changed you personally in

43:13

your relationships and in everything that

43:15

you do your relationship with fear?

43:17

Oh, wow. It changed everything. I

43:19

think there was a... there was

43:21

a normal see to run from

43:23

like when something feels big or

43:25

something feels scary you run you

43:27

feel the fear and you run

43:29

and for me it was kind

43:31

of holding building a relationship with

43:33

fear like turning opening up that

43:35

door that dark room you put

43:37

the lights on everybody show yourself

43:39

all the monsters come on You

43:41

know, and I think that changed

43:43

everything for me because now, when

43:45

I feel fear in any way,

43:47

shape or form, I know that

43:49

it's a calling to step into

43:51

the circle, not to become small,

43:53

but to step into it. And

43:55

it's such a powerful indicator for

43:57

me. When I'm afraid, I know

44:00

that I'm onto something. And so

44:02

it's the courage. to step into

44:04

the circle every single time. Open

44:06

the door, turn the lights on,

44:08

all the monsters come out, you're

44:10

not the only one who's here.

44:12

We're also excited, we're also driven,

44:14

we also want to know what's

44:16

going to happen. Fear you're not

44:18

the only one who's here. Oh

44:20

man. You're such a beautiful voice

44:22

for courage. Like I want to

44:24

send my daughter to go on

44:26

camp with you. I'm just like,

44:28

go and hang out with Zandi.

44:30

Like, you know, I think you're

44:32

such a beautiful voice for black

44:34

girls, for black women, and just

44:36

changing the narrative. And outside of

44:38

everything you're doing, I think at

44:40

the heart of you is an

44:42

invitation for people to really come

44:44

to know who they are, come

44:46

to break their own barriers and

44:48

really. you and the more I

44:50

speak to you the way I'm

44:52

the more I'm just like My

44:54

limitations, even in this moment, are

44:56

being questioned. I'm switching on the

44:58

light to saying, okay, come on

45:00

monsters, let's have a talk, let's

45:02

have a sit down. But just

45:04

in closing, what do you hope

45:06

to achieve with words with this

45:08

initiate initiative? And what message do

45:10

you want to leave to everybody

45:12

who's listening and saying, Zandi, I

45:14

hear you, but maybe you are

45:16

an outlier, you know? Wow.

45:19

First, I hope with willies, I

45:22

hope to inspire. I think there's

45:24

something in realizing that, like you

45:26

said earlier, we can always take

45:28

something little back into our world

45:30

and make that be the change.

45:32

And one person. can change everything

45:34

like we multiply ourselves in all

45:36

the moments that we learn something

45:39

and we tell our families whether

45:41

it's about plastic whether it's about

45:43

saving water I just hope that

45:45

from this it's inspired action to

45:47

do something differently to see how

45:49

you can save water in your

45:51

community you know and I think

45:53

maybe from my end I always

45:55

think that I grew up in

45:58

So we're, I grew up in

46:00

So we're, and now I live

46:02

as a mermaid to the world.

46:04

There's something so crazy about it,

46:06

but it reminds me that no

46:08

matter how old we are, no

46:10

matter where we come from, we

46:12

are capable of it all. If

46:14

we can dream it, we can be it,

46:17

if you're seeing it, it is yours. And,

46:19

and ultimately, of everything, when

46:21

you feel the fear, step into

46:23

the circle. It's like that moment

46:25

in frozen. Okay, so this is

46:28

my closing. In Frozen, when she

46:30

steps and it becomes ice and

46:32

she steps again and becomes ice,

46:34

and eventually the whole space is

46:36

ice, that is fear. When you step

46:38

into it, your world expands in ways

46:40

that you could never have imagined. And

46:42

that's a powerful place to be. Thank

46:45

you so much Zandi and the work

46:47

that you're doing is absolutely incredible. I'm

46:49

inspired. I'm about to go sit switch

46:51

on the light and invite fear and

46:53

invite all those monsters and really just

46:55

take stock. But most importantly to just

46:57

be mindful and present and I think

46:59

I'll always go back to that scenario

47:01

you shared that as soon as you

47:04

go in as you die then you

47:06

cannot think about how you dived in, dived

47:08

dove, whatever, dived in. And you also

47:10

cannot look to the bottom and you

47:12

cannot look to the top. You have

47:15

to be present. Thank you so much

47:17

for today. You are absolutely incredible and

47:19

I wish you the best in everything

47:21

that you do. Thank you so very

47:23

much for having me for me. It's

47:26

been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for

47:28

the conversation and the heart in the

47:30

midst of it all Thank you so

47:32

much wisdom and wellness family. I hope

47:35

you enjoyed this conversation And today I

47:37

want to ask you what can you do

47:39

in your own capacity to make a difference

47:41

not only in the environment But in the

47:43

community and in your own