0:00

On June 6, 1968, I saw my stepdad, who I call Daddy Tom, cry uncontrollably for

0:02

the first

0:06

time.

0:17

Actually, I think really for

0:19

the only time. It was in the

0:21

morning, and he was standing

0:24

up in the bedroom, hugging my

0:26

mother, and I remember just

0:28

staring at them.

0:30

It was pretty terrifying.

0:33

They had just gotten the news that Robert Kennedy

0:36

had been assassinated the night before.

0:39

My parents were huge

0:41

believers in Bobby Kennedy's ideology,

0:44

and they were completely devastated by his

0:46

loss. I was,

0:48

I guess, about seven, so

0:50

I didn't understand all of the political stuff, of

0:53

course, you know, the war and civil rights

0:55

and social justice. I just saw

0:57

my dad crying,

0:59

but I really clocked it. In

1:02

my family, politics was gigantically

1:05

emotional. My other father,

1:07

my biological father, William, whom

1:09

I call Daddy Will, he had

1:12

this huge framed black and white

1:14

photograph of Martin Luther King, Jr.

1:17

above the fireplace. And

1:19

just to put this in context so you understand,

1:21

he was an avid art collector,

1:24

okay? He had some significant paintings,

1:26

but in that prime spot of

1:29

the house, there was just this huge

1:31

photo of Martin Luther King. That

1:34

was the art. That is how meaningful

1:36

Martin Luther King, Jr.

1:38

was to him. And

1:41

also, my Daddy Will was on Nixon's

1:44

enemies list.

1:45

Can you believe that? He

1:48

was so proud of that. For

1:50

him, being an enemy of the soon-to-be

1:52

disgraced president was a ginormous

1:55

accomplishment, you know? They printed

1:57

the enemies list in the Wichita Eagle.

1:59

and Beacon newspaper and

2:02

my dad framed it and he put it up

2:04

in his office as a badge of honor,

2:06

a triumph, you know. He's since

2:08

passed so now I am the very

2:11

proud owner of that fabulous

2:13

artifact.

2:14

I didn't really think about it as

2:16

a kid growing up but of course I

2:18

was surrounded by politics in Washington

2:21

DC obviously. I mean I went to

2:23

a super conservative all-girls school.

2:25

It wasn't a Christian school or anything

2:27

but it felt kind of like that to

2:29

me as a short

2:31

dark curly haired liberal named

2:33

Dreyfus. The place was so

2:36

Republican. I mean President Ford's

2:38

daughter Susan went there. She was way older than

2:40

me but I remember her Secret Service

2:43

agents they were in the halls and

2:45

she had her senior prom at the White House.

2:48

God, actually

2:51

come to think of it the main weed

2:53

dealer at my high school was,

2:58

how do I put this so I don't get sued, she

3:01

was the daughter of someone from the Justice

3:04

Department.

3:05

Yeah, yeah, politics was

3:07

just everywhere for me. The first election

3:10

that I voted in was Carter versus Reagan

3:12

so I was a righteous loser

3:14

from the start and I

3:17

still can't shake this emotional political

3:19

thing. I hear the national anthem and I

3:21

get a little choked up

3:23

but politics is how we change things in

3:25

this hugely flawed wonderful

3:28

country democracy. The

3:31

right to vote you know that is

3:34

huge and it's sacred.

3:37

When my kids were really tiny, when they were too

3:39

tiny to have any idea what the fuck was going on, I

3:41

would take them with me to the polling place and I'd

3:43

march them into the booth so they could punch

3:45

the buttons for me. I don't know maybe

3:47

that's illegal but I did it. I thought it was

3:50

important. It was a good message for

3:52

them and they thought it was fun.

3:54

When I started to get famous

3:56

it gave me a platform to help shine the spotlight

3:59

on candidates. and issues that I thought

4:01

were legitimate. And so I started to do

4:03

that. And I know there's a lot of

4:05

blowback on celebrities for getting

4:07

involved in politics, but my philosophy

4:10

on that is this.

4:12

I'm a citizen of the United States. I

4:15

love this country. I'm allowed

4:18

to express my views. And I never

4:20

claimed to be an expert on any issue.

4:23

But if people want to listen to me, I'm

4:25

delighted to use that moment to bring attention

4:27

to the people who deserve to be heard. And

4:30

when it comes to the environment and the climate

4:32

crisis, boy, does Gina

4:34

McCarthy deserve to be heard. So

4:36

today I'm talking to Gina

4:38

McCarthy.

4:42

I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus. This is Wiser

4:44

Than Me, the podcast where I get

4:47

schooled by women who are wiser

4:49

than

4:49

me. And

5:05

holy

5:06

hell, you guys today is going

5:08

to blow your goddamn minds. You

5:11

know, I really do believe that the

5:13

climate crisis is the elephant in

5:16

every room. It's a social

5:18

justice issue. It's a national security

5:20

issue. It's a racial issue. It's

5:23

an economic issue. It is the ticking

5:25

time bomb that could in fact destroy

5:28

mankind. And our guest,

5:31

Gina McCarthy, is out there

5:33

trying to diffuse that fucking time

5:36

bomb every day. She's

5:38

like the MacGyver of climate. She's

5:40

fought inside the system, serving

5:43

in both Republican and Democratic

5:45

administrations. I mean, give me a break. How

5:47

hard is that? We need to find out about that. And

5:50

I can't even list all the shit she's done for the

5:52

environment, but here are some greatest hits.

5:55

She was head of the EPA in

5:57

the Obama administration. She was the

5:59

first ever

5:59

national climate advisor

6:02

in the Biden administration. She

6:04

ran the Natural Resources Defense Council,

6:07

the folks who sue the government's ass

6:09

and who sue climate criminals

6:12

and who win. She's had

6:14

to testify in front of the worst climate

6:16

deniers in Congress, can't wait to hear about

6:18

that. And somehow she just keeps

6:21

on fighting in spite of impossible odds

6:23

and under the threat of global extinction,

6:26

for fuck's sake. She's controversial, she's

6:28

powerful, she's smart as

6:29

a whip, she's a wife, she's a mother and

6:32

she's got the best Boston accent

6:34

ever. And she's definitely wiser than me. Gina,

6:36

I am so happy to get to talk

6:39

to you today. Gina McCarthy.

6:41

Julia, what an introduction.

6:42

I'm really nervous now.

6:44

How am I gonna live up to all that? Yeah, we

6:47

can just end the interview now if you'd like. It

6:50

would definitely be to my benefit, but

6:52

we'll risk it anyways and go ahead. So

6:57

before we start talking, first

6:59

of all, are you comfortable if I say you're real age?

7:01

Are you cool with that? Of course, yeah. All right,

7:04

so you just turned 69, right? That's

7:06

right. And how old do you feel, Gina, on

7:08

the inside? How do you feel age-wise? I

7:11

would say somewhere around 32.

7:13

I still think I probably

7:16

am somewhere like that until I look in the mirror,

7:18

of course, but I can fool myself

7:20

for long periods of time. We can

7:22

all say you're 32. If you want, I'll ask you

7:24

again. What's your real age? I'm 32.

7:30

All right, so listen, here's my first question. Do

7:32

you consider yourself a politician?

7:35

No, not at all. Why? I

7:37

think there's a big difference between a big

7:40

key politician and somebody

7:42

that is,

7:43

you know, in politics, small

7:45

p. You know, I've worked in government

7:47

my entire life, so

7:50

I've been surrounded in working for

7:52

people who are elected. And

7:54

I like policy. I like

7:56

the give and take of making decisions

7:59

based on... real facts and science

8:02

and trying to move those things forward. I

8:05

don't like, you know, the scrappiness

8:08

of the whole thing when you're

8:10

in the big pay politics. And Lord knows,

8:13

I would hate going around shaking

8:15

hands and doing all that

8:17

kind of stuff all the time every two to four

8:19

years. It just seems miserable to me that

8:22

you're running more than you're serving, you know?

8:25

I wouldn't like that at all.

8:26

Speaking for myself as somebody who's

8:30

been the only woman

8:33

in the room more times

8:35

than I care to admit, I mean, whether it's in a

8:37

writer's room or whether it's, you

8:39

know, on TV in a cast, whatever.

8:43

I know you've had similar experience yourself.

8:46

So

8:47

let's talk about that. What's that been like

8:49

for you, if that's been your experience?

8:52

In a number of ways that that

8:54

has been, it's certainly gotten better over

8:56

time. But honestly, I talk to a lot

8:59

of young women about that

9:01

now, you know, because I watch

9:03

them how they behave in a meeting, you

9:06

know, and really over

9:08

time, I think you just learn that

9:11

you sit forward and you speak up,

9:15

you know? So if, you know, if you

9:17

speak up and people don't like it, I speak

9:19

up again if I think something still

9:22

needs to be said. But it's

9:24

gotten better. I mean, I don't think

9:26

it's anywhere near where it used to be. You

9:29

know, I remember when I was younger, I

9:31

got stuck sort of chairing this statewide

9:34

board many years ago.

9:36

I think I was probably 28 years

9:39

old at the time, maybe 30. And

9:43

I was at a public hearing, and

9:46

it was a very contentious issue because

9:48

it was a hazardous waste facility

9:50

site safety council. So it was about

9:53

an incinerator being cited in a community.

9:56

And so every time you went to a public hearing,

9:58

you had to have police escort.

9:59

in and out. And so I was cheering

10:02

this meeting and it was ruckus. But

10:05

this one guy came up and

10:07

I called on him and he walked up sort

10:09

of the front where we were sitting on a table

10:11

as the board. He's when he was

10:13

like a citizen. Yeah, he was. And

10:16

he said, and he's sort of stood lean

10:18

forward and started saying, Hey,

10:20

sweet hot. And I

10:22

jumped up practically

10:25

jumped over the table and I said, don't

10:28

call me sweet hot. Please

10:30

tell me people applauded. Well, it

10:32

was it was on the news that

10:34

night. It was a reaction, not

10:37

a well thought out answer. But

10:39

it made its point. You know, he

10:41

backed up and he politely asked

10:44

questions, which was great. And

10:46

actually, that was a very contentious

10:48

issue that ended up not citing

10:51

the incinerator. And the

10:53

folks in that community were actually very

10:56

appreciative of the way that we handled

10:58

it. You know, so it

10:59

just, you know, you just got to go

11:02

with the flow, but also recognize

11:05

that, you know, there's a ground you need

11:07

to keep as a human being, there's a respect

11:10

that you need to demand, especially

11:12

in political situations.

11:15

Yeah. And especially as a woman. That's

11:17

right. You do. Right. Yeah. Which

11:19

leads me into this next thing I wanted to talk

11:22

about, which was, you know, in 2008, do you

11:25

remember when Hillary got famously

11:27

emotional? She was doing

11:29

a town hall somewhere and she teared up. And

11:32

there was a lot of controversy about it,

11:34

because first of all, her approval numbers

11:36

went up.

11:37

And some people thought that was

11:39

a good thing. And others criticized it because

11:42

it was, you know, a woman tearing

11:44

up on the campaign trail. And as a matter of fact, it

11:47

was something that when we took and sort

11:49

of ran with on Veep, when we were making Veep

11:51

the first season, we actually had

11:53

an episode called Tears, written

11:56

by Jesse Armstrong, who now runs the show

11:58

Succession, by the way.

11:59

In this particular episode, my

12:02

character, Selina Meyer, gets emotional

12:05

during an interview only because

12:07

her staff has negotiated

12:09

with the journalists to make the journalists ask

12:12

Selina Meyer questions to make her cry

12:15

in an effort to get her

12:17

approval ratings up.

12:19

Can you imagine Felicia,

12:21

if I'm tired, imagine

12:25

how tired the rubbermakers

12:27

are here in Ohio. She is

12:29

magnificent. I want an Emmy for

12:32

that, so that worked out good for me. But

12:35

I want to know something. Are you an emotional

12:37

person? I mean, you stand up and you say, don't

12:39

call me sweetheart, but I don't know

12:42

if that makes you an emotional person. Are you? I don't

12:44

know. Maybe it makes me less

12:46

than stable, I don't know. In

12:48

situations like that, you

12:50

know, I really feel

12:52

like I disarm

12:55

people by being very genuine. I

12:57

don't get excited about

13:00

the situation

13:00

I'm in. You know, I feel

13:03

like I handle myself

13:05

well. So I just talk normal

13:08

and I behave normally. And certainly

13:11

there are things that, you know, get very

13:13

upsetting, but not someone calling me

13:15

sweetheart. You know, that was

13:17

just a reaction. It would have to be a

13:20

whole lot more than that to get

13:22

me to be emotional

13:25

in other than a private setting. And

13:27

frankly, I don't, you know, I don't tend

13:29

to be a very

13:30

weepy person, but

13:34

I don't find that- I'm gonna make you cry. Okay,

13:36

good. Give it a go. And you're not gonna

13:38

like pinch me or anything. So

13:41

here's the question. What's the best advice

13:43

you received in your career? Did you ever get really good

13:46

advice from someone that you

13:48

sort of took with you, that you've taken with you along

13:50

your way? Yeah, I did. I did. I got,

13:53

there's this one thing that sticks out

13:55

in my mind and it was just

13:58

a little bit of a push as much-

13:59

and advice is when I was in Massachusetts,

14:02

one of the things that I did early

14:05

on in my career,

14:08

well mid-career anyways, I was

14:10

working on how to get

14:13

rid of the five remaining

14:15

coal fired power plants in the state.

14:18

The governor had said he was going to do it. Now

14:21

I was on the third governor trying to get

14:23

it done, right? I mean, it took that

14:25

long to get this done. And we had

14:27

a lot of push. I had a lot of pushback

14:30

at internal meetings. I

14:32

left the meeting and I was walking with the

14:35

then chief of staff of environmental

14:37

affairs office and I said to him, you know, I'm so

14:39

sick and tired of this. We've gone to

14:41

three or four of these meetings. I just want

14:43

to call the question here. Let's just put

14:46

it on the table and see if the governor will step

14:48

up. And he said something very

14:50

casual like, Gina, you never

14:53

push the question if

14:56

the answer is going to be no. And

15:00

he looked at the politics

15:02

and said, keep plugging

15:05

because it will break. But if you

15:07

try too soon, if you

15:09

push too hard and because

15:12

you're frustrated, not because you found

15:14

a way to argue something different, then

15:16

you're going to lose. So every time

15:19

from then, when I've hit a wall,

15:21

I've thought to myself, well, what's

15:23

the other way to get at it? What

15:25

do I keep? What do I do different?

15:28

That's going

15:28

to start a separate conversation

15:30

that can get me where I need to go. That's

15:33

the small pea politician in you.

15:35

Am I right? Yeah, because it's people. You

15:38

know, I'm not really fighting for

15:40

a political ideation or idea.

15:43

That's not where I am. I don't care whether it was

15:45

a good idea by a Republican or a Democrat.

15:49

If it's a good idea and I can save lives,

15:51

I can make things better, clean up places.

15:54

I'm going to go for it. Well, speaking

15:56

of which, then, so you work for Democrats

15:58

and Republicans. I do.

15:59

I don't know how you managed

16:02

to go between the two, particularly in the

16:04

last, I'm gonna say five years,

16:06

I do not know how you've done it because

16:08

I can tell you right now,

16:11

I'd wanna blow my brains out over

16:14

these fucking lunatics. Really, I mean, I wanna

16:16

know. And speaking for myself, particularly

16:18

when I get angry, it's

16:22

very hard for me to put a sentence

16:24

together. I get so

16:25

pissed off that I can't speak articulately.

16:28

I sense that you are not like this, I know

16:30

that you are not like this. How

16:33

do you do it? How do you stay calm?

16:35

How do you keep from, forgive

16:37

me, but murdering Joe Manchin?

16:39

You know what I'm saying? That

16:41

would have been highly unsuccessful strategy.

16:45

Well, let's not forget that Manchin

16:48

was a Democrat or is a Democrat.

16:51

Yes, it's hard to remember that. I

16:54

guess we have to pinch ourselves and

16:56

call that out every once in a while. My

16:59

mother had this saying that always

17:01

rings through for me and I say it to my

17:04

kids and it drives them crazy. It's

17:06

basically don't

17:07

waste a good worry on things you can't

17:09

control. Oh, that's such good advice. Which

17:12

I think is that in government,

17:14

if you

17:15

don't take a deep breath on

17:18

things that you can't change, you'll

17:20

drive yourself frigging nuts. And

17:23

I did for a while when I was younger,

17:26

but I don't do that anymore. I

17:28

have to find a different way to get

17:31

to the outcome I want. So when, you

17:33

know, I did more hearings.

17:35

Me and Tom Perez, it was a Labor

17:38

Secretary under Obama. And when I was

17:40

a gay administrator, we were competing

17:42

for who was hauled up in front of Congress

17:45

more.

17:45

But you know, you just had

17:48

to sit there and recognize that this is

17:50

not your show. This is

17:52

their show. The only thing you

17:54

had to do was stay polite, tell

17:58

the truth.

17:59

If they didn't like the truth, they'd say something

18:02

else. You'd still answer the question.

18:04

And you just keep moving on because a lot

18:07

of, what happens at the federal

18:09

level and in politics is bluster.

18:12

Right. And if

18:14

you can't take that, don't go in. Because

18:17

that you have to desensitize

18:20

yourself to that. But still, you

18:22

still have to respect people they want. So

18:25

you do what you can to be as respectful as

18:27

you can. But you don't ever

18:29

have

18:29

to agree and you don't

18:32

ever have to try to bounce back and

18:34

be as nasty to someone as they are

18:36

to you. It's the worst thing in the world,

18:38

especially for a woman.

18:40

That's not the atmosphere within

18:43

which you can win. Doesn't that

18:45

suck? Yeah. I mean, it's

18:48

interesting that you say that, especially for

18:50

a woman. I can't, I mean, the idea

18:53

of

18:53

stooping to their level, the

18:56

blustery level is just,

18:58

that's off the table for you

19:00

as a woman. Yeah. But

19:02

that's what they were looking to do, right?

19:05

That's what they wanted. Yeah, that's the trap.

19:08

That's the trap. So I keep saying,

19:10

you know, I just sat there

19:12

going, okay, Jeannie, you're going to leave

19:15

here and you're not going

19:17

to make one single story. They

19:19

just wasted their time on you. Right.

19:21

That's what I wanted. Because

19:23

it was certainly not

19:26

my goal to defend life

19:28

and liberty and the pursuit of happiness in

19:30

front of, you know, senators

19:32

that throw snowballs and say climate

19:34

change isn't happening. I mean, seriously.

19:37

Well, speaking

19:38

of which, I will tell you this story of myself,

19:40

because back over 20 years

19:42

ago, I remember Laurie David,

19:46

whom you know, and I know, of course. I do. She

19:49

came to me and she was thinking she was going to do a documentary

19:51

about global warming,

19:53

which ultimately turned into an inconvenient

19:56

truth and won an Academy Award. But

19:58

she says this to me.

19:59

And I'm like, you know what? I don't think

20:02

anybody's gonna buy that. So

20:06

that was my, that's what a complete idiot I was. I

20:11

mean, I really did think it was just too big,

20:13

too big an idea to present

20:16

to the American movie

20:19

going audience, you know, or

20:21

shall I say a global movie going audience.

20:23

So what did I know? But anyway, have

20:26

you always been on the climate

20:28

train? And how

20:30

did you come around to it yourself?

20:33

You know, I had a woman that I worked

20:35

with and when I was in

20:38

the environmental agency in Massachusetts

20:40

who was an air quality person and

20:43

she spotted it early and

20:46

really kept pushing me and pushing me to

20:48

start getting more active on climate. We got to talk

20:50

about it. And so I

20:52

really got very active when

20:55

we started looking at something

20:57

called the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative,

21:00

which is was the first cap and trade

21:02

program in New England

21:05

and the mid Atlantic States. It's

21:07

now 11 States. That was

21:09

a really big thing for me.

21:12

And it was the, you know, the first time

21:14

I started to get a real sense

21:16

of the dynamics of this issue

21:19

and all the various ways that you could really

21:22

start thinking about managing it

21:24

and addressing it.

21:25

You know, I obviously, I don't have your expertise

21:27

on the climate crisis, but I certainly

21:30

understand the gravity of this issue and

21:32

the scale of it.

21:34

And I can't imagine what it's like to

21:36

take on something so huge

21:39

and to have the responsibility that you

21:41

had. And when my son Henry was

21:44

in fourth grade, he had a teacher

21:46

named Christie whom we adored. And

21:49

she used to say to Henry and to the kids

21:52

when they were feeling overwhelmed by whatever,

21:54

you know, math test

21:56

or a little essay or something, they had to

21:58

write whatever.

21:59

would say take it in manageable parts.

22:02

Break it down into manageable parts. And

22:04

it reminds me of something that you said that

22:07

I have here. You said, I just don't think

22:09

there's anything we can't do when

22:11

we begin to take those small steps because

22:13

when you do big steps, follow. That's

22:16

right. And it reminded me of Christie. It's the

22:18

same idea, isn't it? Yeah, it is. I

22:21

think, and this is a really important thing,

22:23

I think maybe for your listeners and others

22:25

to think about is when you have a

22:27

big lift that you're trying to get,

22:29

you take it in five pound weights, right?

22:33

You have to just start somewhere.

22:36

I've seen it my whole life. It's

22:38

been amazing. The Regional Greenhouse Gas

22:40

Initiative was huge. No one

22:42

could do it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then

22:45

you got a couple of states who can. And

22:47

then all of a sudden, ooh, this actually works.

22:49

More states, you know, it just happens.

22:52

But you can't always

22:55

with big things know

22:57

how to get them done. You just know

22:59

you have

22:59

to start. I think people

23:02

worry too much about plans

23:04

to the finish. I see it all

23:06

the time. Well, that'll only get you halfway

23:08

there. I'm like, well, who gives a shit? Halfway

23:11

is halfway further than I am now.

23:14

Right, exactly.

23:16

We'll get more wisdom from Gina

23:18

McCarthy after this break. Stay tuned.

23:28

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28:22

Can we talk about Flint? Mm-hmm. I

28:24

know you took a lot of criticism about the Flint water

28:27

crisis. Yeah. One of our producers

28:29

is a black woman, and we were watching the

28:31

hearings that you went through. And when

28:34

she described what it was like watching the Senate

28:36

hearing, she said that the woman part of her

28:39

was cheering for you, but

28:41

the black part of her was very let down.

28:43

Yeah. And so I'm wondering

28:46

today,

28:47

what would you say to those black

28:49

people, that community who felt disillusioned

28:52

and disenfranchised by the whole thing,

28:54

by that crisis?

28:56

Well, I certainly won't challenge how she

28:58

feels. If I were her, I

29:00

probably would have felt the same way. So

29:04

there's a couple of things. One is

29:06

that entire city

29:08

had been let down for decades. And

29:11

we did nothing at EPA to

29:13

help with that. Very,

29:16

very little. We didn't

29:18

jump on it quickly. We didn't

29:20

recognize what the community was saying.

29:23

We were just listening to... And then

29:26

they had this emergency supervisor,

29:29

I forget what the term was, that was running

29:32

Flint because basically

29:34

the state took it over. And

29:36

they didn't tell us the truth. And

29:39

we just didn't push fast enough. Now,

29:42

I know that at headquarters,

29:44

when we figured

29:44

this out, we jumped. We had

29:47

people there the next day. We had emergency

29:49

services set up for years

29:52

after that. But it was

29:54

a horrendous situation. And

29:56

so what that hearing was about though

29:59

was a...

29:59

of things. It was about obviously getting

30:02

information out. But the challenging

30:04

part is whenever a problem like that

30:06

happens, everybody wants to land on

30:09

someone to blame. It's human nature.

30:12

And so I had to take

30:16

and make sure that everybody knew about

30:19

the disappointment we had at EPA with our

30:21

performance and not listening quickly.

30:24

But it was a

30:26

horrible situation. And I don't

30:28

blame anybody for

30:29

resenting that,

30:32

or feeling like we let

30:34

them down. Because I don't think I feel

30:36

any differently. Every time it's brought up,

30:38

I have a pit in my stomach. It seemed

30:41

to me during the hearing when I

30:43

was watching the footage, it

30:45

seemed to me like you were biting your tongue a lot

30:47

during that hearing. I was. Right.

30:49

And actually, back to Veep again, we

30:52

used to meet with politicians and people

30:54

in government and lobbyists and all sorts

30:56

of things. And when I say we, I mean me and the

30:58

writers and stuff.

30:59

And one of those people was Mitt Romney.

31:02

He came to talk to our writers room and

31:04

he was incredibly generous to do so. And he hung

31:06

out for a really long time. And we asked

31:09

him about his 47% gaffe

31:13

that he made when he was running for president. And

31:16

it was an incredible gaffe. And

31:18

it was sort of, I think, the beginning

31:21

of the end of his run for

31:23

president to a certain extent. And we

31:25

were asking him about that and

31:27

how he managed that

31:30

moment, what it was like. And what he said

31:32

to us was, you know, when you're

31:34

explaining, you're losing,

31:36

he

31:37

said,

31:38

which is an actual line then we put into the

31:40

show. What happened to you during

31:43

that hearing that kept you from saying

31:46

what maybe you wanted to say and what did you want

31:48

to say? Well, you know, the

31:51

awkwardness of that hearing, what

31:53

it was not. And that that Shavets,

31:56

I mean, give me a fucking break. I know

31:58

the awkwardness was.

31:59

I was sitting next to the governor.

32:02

Now the governor had all the culpability

32:05

in the world, right? The state,

32:07

which we now know, because the state's the one that's

32:09

been sued, right? And they're the ones

32:11

that have had to pay, because it was their

32:13

responsibility to tell us the truth

32:16

and they didn't.

32:17

So I think he went first and

32:20

then I went next. And so

32:22

you make your case, but you know, I really

32:24

kind of wanted to whack him one.

32:27

Do you know what I mean? I'm like, seriously?

32:31

I tried my best

32:34

to yes, explain, because in government

32:37

you're supposed to explain. You're

32:39

supposed to explain what you did, what

32:42

you didn't do, how you thought about

32:44

it. Maybe that's losing, but

32:46

to me that's governance. That's

32:49

leadership. I tell. Right.

32:51

And so we took culpability

32:54

to the extent that I tried

32:56

hard to make sure that

32:58

people knew that we should not be without criticism.

33:01

We are not without blame. But

33:03

to have that guy start out by saying it

33:05

was our fault, well, that

33:08

was where I was biting my tongue. I

33:10

see. Because I, you know, that

33:12

would have done nobody any good.

33:15

And frankly, I

33:16

think the people are much more interested

33:19

in getting justice than they were revenge.

33:22

You know? I want to shift gears now.

33:24

Thank you for that. And thank you for speaking

33:26

so in depth about that crisis

33:29

in particular. But now I'm changing

33:32

gears completely. I want to ask you something.

33:34

You have three children, right? Yes.

33:37

You had three children in three years. I did.

33:40

Had you not heard about something called birth

33:42

control? Yes. I

33:46

think I just got overly excited. I'm sorry.

33:49

Clearly. Those

33:52

were fun years, I'm telling you. Were

33:54

they? Oh my God. They

33:56

were great. They were crazy. Yeah, crazy. Exactly.

33:59

do it because you had a career you were

34:02

working were you not? I was I was so I

34:05

had my first when I was the health agent in

34:07

Canton that was a full-time job and I had

34:10

a lovely friend who was in the same

34:12

town who sat for my

34:15

my child after

34:17

like he was three months old

34:19

or so and so I got I went

34:21

back to work and and I kept that job

34:24

up for a while which was great then

34:26

I just I got pregnant again and

34:29

then I decided I probably should

34:32

take a little bit of time with this baby

34:34

which I did but then

34:36

I got really bored so

34:39

you got pregnant again so no so I went

34:41

back to work and then

34:43

I got pregnant again so

34:46

it was but the way

34:48

it worked was you know my husband's really

34:51

terrific he's he's just

34:53

a great person and he was in the flower business

34:56

yeah here's how our schedules worked

34:58

please so he

34:59

he would go in there's there's

35:02

a flower market in the city where

35:04

he had to go in and buy flowers because he

35:06

bought them for supermarkets that's was his

35:08

job then and he'd go in at

35:10

like three in the morning two or

35:13

three in the morning that's when his day

35:15

started and he'd get home at

35:17

two

35:18

and I'd go to work then and

35:21

I'd go to work for like three hours

35:23

or four hours in in the job

35:25

and then I'd take home a box of plans

35:29

that that other people didn't have time

35:31

to look at and I'd work till 10 at

35:33

night at home at home

35:36

so it was like tag-team parenting

35:38

it was that's it yep

35:40

Wow so it was it was really fun

35:43

and not seeing one another a lot was how

35:45

I avoided the fourth maybe I don't know

35:49

four and four years would have been the

35:51

death of me that would have been that's

35:54

a lot I had you know I also had

35:56

a sister-in-law who had two kids at

35:58

not too long after my

35:59

So when my kids were like,

36:03

you know, three and four and five, I

36:05

had a lot of help. Family's

36:08

great. The family was around. Because

36:10

your mother also worked, right? I mean,

36:13

she worked while raising you and

36:15

your sister. She did, she was a waitress.

36:19

And then she was a nurse's aide and

36:21

she worked in a chemical company

36:24

for a while. So she was great.

36:26

I think I learned to live with less sleep than

36:29

most human beings.

36:29

And I think I got that from her.

36:32

I love the attitude about it. I have to say,

36:34

when I was having my kids

36:37

and I spaced them out, right? I spaced

36:39

them five years apart. But

36:42

even having them spaced apart, I was like

36:44

dying. I wish actually looking back

36:47

on it, I wish I had been, I

36:49

could have taken a big fat chill pill

36:51

during that time. Cause I was so anxious

36:53

about being there for them. And

36:55

then also when I had to get to work and

36:58

it doesn't sound like you suffered that at all.

36:59

Not

37:02

as bad, but I've told you, I

37:04

don't waste a good worry. I

37:07

mean, I just don't do that because it's so draining.

37:10

So it all works out. You just got

37:12

to make it happen. And honestly, having

37:15

someone like my husband was really made

37:18

it all happen. It's always been challenging,

37:20

but he always knew that I was never gonna

37:22

be a person who didn't want

37:25

to work. It's just in my blood.

37:29

I love having a

37:30

purpose

37:32

and it's great to have your

37:34

purpose be motherhood. And many people are

37:36

satisfied with that and happy. It

37:38

just wasn't me. And so he knew

37:41

when I said I was gonna take some time

37:43

off after the second that I probably wouldn't. I

37:46

built a really, actually I built

37:48

a really terrific swing set and

37:51

I built a really terrific little

37:54

house in the back for the kids to

37:56

play in. God, I really

37:58

wish I'd known you when I was a young.

37:59

I could have used your handiwork. I

38:02

could have used a swing set in the backyard. Hey,

38:06

when did your hair start to go gray? Oh, when

38:08

I was about 13. Get the fuck

38:10

out of here. I was significantly gray in high

38:12

school. No! And

38:15

I really loved it because it was like so different.

38:18

Of course. I have grown

38:20

up with literally no style,

38:22

right? I mean, I just wear

38:25

jeans whenever I can get away with it. And

38:27

if it's not jeans, it's just a really

38:29

cheap pair of pants and maybe I can find some

38:31

kind of jacket to go over it, you know? I just

38:34

can't... It's just not what I do. I suck

38:37

at that stuff. But I loved

38:39

my gray hair.

38:40

It always gave me something

38:42

probably to detract from my clothes. So

38:45

it was great. But

38:48

then when you grow into an age

38:50

where it's not a surprise anymore, then it's

38:52

like, oh shit. You know,

38:55

it gives me no distinguishing feature. Yeah,

38:58

but it's a good color. It is, for real. It's

39:00

totally white. It's ridiculous. I

39:02

have to tell you that I started graying at a very young age too,

39:05

but I started... I've been dying it my whole life. At

39:07

some point I got to let this go. Like

39:09

how old?

39:10

Probably about in

39:13

my early 20s. Yeah. My

39:15

daughter's like that. My oldest

39:18

daughter, Maggie. Yeah. And she's not pleased

39:20

with it. Is she dying her hair? Yeah. Yeah, she

39:23

colors it. Because

39:25

if she doesn't, it starts getting this gray thing. I

39:28

had kind of a light

39:31

brown here. So it was

39:33

boring without the gray. And it

39:35

mixed in well. It wasn't startling

39:38

at first, so it grew in. But Maggie's

39:40

here is much darker than mine. Oh. And

39:43

so it looked... And I would

39:45

agree with her. I totally would have

39:47

done the same thing if I were her. But

39:49

what do you do? Like if you have to go to an event or

39:51

something, do you get somebody to help you with your

39:53

outfit choices? Or you just wear

39:55

the pants and the jacket? I don't have... Really. If

39:58

I actually hired somebody to look to...

39:59

my choices that only have to work

40:02

for about five minutes or so. Because

40:05

it's either the gray suit or the blue suit.

40:07

You know what I mean? It's just I'm

40:10

really bad. I'm trying to be better, but

40:12

I don't think I ever will be. Yeah,

40:14

I don't think you're changing in this area. No.

40:19

So all of these high power jobs

40:21

that you've had throughout your career,

40:24

I want to know, how do you take care of yourself in the

40:26

middle of all of that? You know, do you have like

40:28

any sort of a,

40:29

you know, they call it self care, but

40:32

do you have, what do you

40:34

do for yourself?

40:36

I do. I do think I take

40:38

care of myself. You know, when I was

40:40

a kid, we sort of grew up outside. Yeah.

40:43

So being outside and walking, biking,

40:46

and in my younger years, running, it was

40:49

absolutely essential. You know, I

40:51

always swim a lot. I'm

40:53

a pretty good swimmer. Oh, really? Do you still

40:55

swim? Not, not of the past

40:58

couple of years. I should,

41:00

but I just haven't had time. The white house

41:02

is a horse of a different color. I'll tell you why.

41:05

They're like all the time. Don't

41:06

they have a pool in the white house you can pop into?

41:08

And you know what I really do every,

41:11

every night. Um, and this has been a habit

41:13

of mine, I think for a really long time

41:16

is I read a book. I

41:18

have to, that's how my,

41:20

I get my mind off

41:22

of things, you know, and it's, I've

41:25

always read mystery books cause

41:27

I can read them and I can put them down.

41:30

You know, a novel I read, I read

41:33

every once in a while, but they're

41:35

intense. They're all personal. And

41:37

I'm like, I don't need any more drama in

41:39

my life. Yeah. You just

41:41

want to know who done it. Exactly.

41:44

And so what are you reading now? What are you reading?

41:46

Oh, I am reading something by Karen

41:48

Slaughter, which is a more intense book

41:50

than I thought. I'll tell you my favorite

41:53

author. Tell me is Louise Penny,

41:56

Louise Penny. She does the gammash

41:58

books. It's a mystery. It

42:01

can be complex. And

42:04

I think she's on her maybe 12th book.

42:07

And I've read every single one of them. And I

42:09

thought I was the only freak that was obsessed

42:11

with this woman. I have her on my Kindle

42:13

as I'll buy anything this woman

42:15

writes. She just did a book with Hillary

42:18

Clinton. Oh, she's the one who did the book

42:20

with Hillary Clinton. Oh my God.

42:22

I don't know what it is, but

42:25

I'm just fascinated with the woman and

42:27

the way she writes. Are you in a book club?

42:30

No, I've never done that. I

42:32

don't do a lot of those. I did it once. It was too

42:34

much pressure to finish the book and

42:37

then have an opinion. I like to go

42:39

at my own rate. I think I just

42:41

gave you the most opinion of a book I've

42:43

ever given anyone in my life. I

42:46

think we just started a book club. That's what I think.

42:49

I think you and I are now in a Louise

42:51

Penny book club. So now

42:53

this is the very last bit of our conversation

42:55

which has gone on forever. I apologize for

42:57

that. But what the hell, we had a lot to cover.

43:00

That's okay. You know, I love talking to you.

43:02

I love talking to you too. Here's a question.

43:05

Something you'd go back and tell yourself when you were 21.

43:08

Read more. Louise Penny.

43:14

See, I start the sentence, you complete

43:16

it. That's a good one. What do you love about

43:19

being your age? Is there anything you love about

43:21

being 69? There's

43:25

a few things, four things in particular

43:27

which are my grandchildren. Oh. They're

43:30

the best. You know, it's

43:33

as if you got through kids in order

43:35

to get grandkids. Really, it's that

43:37

good to cover. That's okay. You

43:39

know, I love talking to you. I love talking

43:41

to you too. Here's a question. Something

43:43

you'd go back and tell yourself when you were 21.

43:47

Read more. Louise Penny.

43:52

See, I start the sentence, you complete

43:55

it. That's a good one. What do you love about

43:57

being your age? Is there anything you love about

43:59

being. 69? There's

44:03

a few things, four things in particular

44:05

which are my grandchildren.

44:08

They're the best, you know.

44:10

It's as if you got through kids

44:13

in order to get grandkids. Really?

44:15

It's that good. Oh, it's

44:17

better than

44:17

best. I'll tell you, they're

44:20

just such a joy. Four, three,

44:23

almost two,

44:26

and seven months. So

44:28

do you see them all the time?

44:30

I do, well three of them. And I see,

44:32

you know, that my, the oldest is in

44:35

New Jersey. So I know it's not

44:37

a long way, but it tends to be

44:39

when you want to see them all the time. Of course, yeah. Is

44:41

there anything you wish you'd spent less time on?

44:44

Besides

44:47

shopping for pants? No,

44:51

I've sort of lived my life the way I wanted

44:53

to, I guess. Maybe

44:58

I should buy a few shirts too. What do you think? I think

45:00

maybe you should spend more time on

45:03

shopping. I

45:04

don't, I don't think I would, I can't

45:06

imagine that I would have ever said this in one

45:08

of these conversations.

45:11

But I think it's time for you to really focus

45:13

on shopping. Yeah, that's probably

45:16

true. I think I have to come to Boston and we're going

45:18

somewhere. That's a

45:20

good idea. Just bring your checkbook,

45:23

you know. I'm just a government worker. Yeah,

45:26

done and done. Sorry, ex-government

45:28

worker. Exactly. What are you

45:30

looking forward to? Is there something you're looking forward

45:32

to?

45:34

Yeah, there's lots, I think.

45:36

I'm looking forward to spending

45:38

more time with my kids. I think if there's any

45:41

regret that I've had, it's that I

45:44

think I could have spent more time with my

45:46

kids rather than my work.

45:48

So I've missed some of that, but

45:50

I don't know whether they feel that way. I'm sure

45:52

they'd tell me if they did. They're

45:55

just about as shy as I am. Got

45:57

it. But I just want to relax

45:59

a little bit.

45:59

I'm really looking forward,

46:02

and I think I've done pretty well to

46:04

just finding a way to chill and

46:07

finding a way to get a little more exercise again.

46:10

Swimming. You got to go swimming. I've

46:12

thought about that. I found a couple of swimming

46:15

pools in the area, so I got to get my

46:17

butt in gear. I started swimming recently. I have

46:19

to tell you, I find it very meditative

46:22

after a certain point. It's getting going is...

46:25

I mean, it's difficult for me

46:28

anyway. It's hard,

46:29

but then you get into a rhythm, and it's

46:32

really good for the brain. I loved

46:34

it. I was a lifeguard for years,

46:37

like through college and stuff, and

46:39

I used to swim all the time, every day.

46:42

And I loved when

46:45

you hit that moment that you're talking about.

46:47

You know, all you can hear is your breath. It's

46:50

unbelievable. It's really cool. It's proper

46:52

meditation is what it is. It really

46:55

is great. Plus, it's

46:57

great exercise, especially in

46:59

my age.

46:59

I think when we go shopping,

47:02

we're getting you all sorts of new

47:04

pants and really lovely blouses,

47:07

jackets, possibly a dress, and

47:09

by the way, a new bathing suit. I feel

47:11

that coming. I

47:13

will draw the line at bathing caps.

47:16

I really don't like that look. Oh,

47:19

then you don't want to come swimming with me. Because I...

47:22

That is... Let's just say

47:25

it's the opposite of sexy. I don't know

47:27

what that word is, but that's what I

47:29

am.

47:29

Gina,

47:32

I can't tell you how much fun this has been

47:34

to hang out with you and talk. Oh, Julie,

47:36

you know I love you. Thank you for giving me the opportunity.

47:39

It's great to spend time with you again. Likewise,

47:41

likewise. I hope I see you sometime

47:44

soon. We'll

47:44

make that happen. All right. Mwah, big

47:47

hug. Take care. Okay,

47:49

we have to take a quick break right now, and

47:51

when we come back, it's time to

47:53

Zoom My Mom.

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49:45

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52:00

Okay, I can't wait to talk to my

52:02

mom about this conversation with Gina. I'm

52:05

going to zoom her right

52:06

now. Mommy,

52:13

can you see me? Yeah, I can see you

52:15

and I just dropped my mouse. Okay,

52:17

do you want to get it? I can wait for you. Can

52:20

you see me? I can see you, Mommy.

52:21

One or two seconds. Let me just do this thing.

52:24

Where's my little zoom thing? Mommy, can you

52:26

see me? I can see you. I can see your little

52:28

postage stamp. Yeah, because I

52:30

don't know what's happening.

52:33

Well, your mouse is on the floor for starters. No,

52:35

I have it now, honey. Oh, you got it. Okay.

52:38

All right, good. Hi, Mom. Hi,

52:41

sweetheart. How are you? I'm

52:43

good. I just talked to Gina McCarthy. Oh,

52:45

for heaven's sakes. Wow, wow, wow. Yeah. Are

52:48

you smarter than ever? Ever.

52:51

I am so smart. The big takeaway

52:54

is that I'm going to take Gina shopping because

52:56

she doesn't... She pays no attention

52:58

to her clothes. She just buys

53:00

pants that are cheap and jackets

53:03

that are cheap, and that's the end of it. I

53:06

wonder if that's a bad way to go. No, I think

53:08

it's probably... I think... Talk about word

53:10

to the wise. I think we should all

53:12

probably be paying a lot less attention

53:14

to shopping,

53:15

although I'm saying that knowing

53:17

that I don't believe a word that I just said.

53:20

But you can talk about things that should be. Yeah.

53:24

We can be aspirational. Tell me something. How

53:26

does she get into the work?

53:29

Is she a scientist? No,

53:31

she's

53:32

not. Her career

53:35

began in the 80s. She

53:38

was the public health officer in Canton,

53:40

Massachusetts, outside of Boston.

53:43

When did Gore first do the Inconvenient Truth? Oh,

53:46

well, yeah.

53:47

That's when it came out. And

53:51

remember you and I and Daddy,

53:54

we went and heard Gore speak well before it was

53:56

the movie, and he was giving the talk

53:58

about global warming. that he was

54:00

just on fire about it, giving a talk.

54:03

Right, exactly. Certainly

54:05

the environment and climate

54:07

change, and this is taking hold

54:09

of more and more people, including the young

54:11

people, and it struck

54:14

me, I remember so

54:16

well during World War II, the

54:18

war effort. And how universal

54:21

in this country the war effort was, and how

54:23

I did truly think if I bought those

54:26

same stamps, and then I got my bond,

54:29

and then I gathered up my scrap metal,

54:31

and I took it to the collection place.

54:34

I did truly think that that was

54:36

going to help win

54:36

the war. I mean, there was no question

54:39

in my mind, and I was like eight

54:41

years old. There was a fervor

54:44

about it, and it was universal. And

54:46

I was thinking to myself, Jesus, I wish that the environment

54:48

could take on that kind of mission where every

54:51

single person thought every

54:53

single thing that they did was crucial.

54:55

Well, Mom, maybe that's happening. Maybe

54:58

that is we are on the road towards

55:00

that. And it

55:02

really speaks to a kind of a connectivity

55:05

you felt to your community

55:08

and to your country and

55:10

to human beings. I

55:14

mean, in other words, you were not alone, and

55:17

it spoke to that. And I think if the

55:19

environmental messaging is

55:21

correct, it can tap into exactly that

55:23

fervor you're talking about,

55:25

I think. Well, here

55:27

in our condo, we have a woman that's

55:29

very much into energy. And

55:31

she has been a, she moved here about

55:34

four years ago. And boy, she has

55:36

taken off, we're composting now. Of

55:38

course, we've been recycling for a long time. But

55:40

now she's gone over all kinds of energy things.

55:43

She has a whole list of if you leave

55:45

a room, 15 minutes, you

55:47

turn the lights off, and that's one of the things. And

55:49

then she has all kinds of other suggestions

55:51

that are on the bulletin board. Mom, is there

55:54

resistance at all in the building to these

55:56

suggestions?

55:57

Well, there's resistance in that certain people

55:59

have made fun of her.

55:59

her. You know, there she goes again.

56:02

But now you can tell the meetings

56:05

that she is front and center and she's she's

56:07

intrepid. And she doesn't give a crap

56:10

about who loves her who doesn't love her.

56:12

She is here to make this this place more

56:15

energy efficient. And my

56:17

hats off to her. And you can tell that she gets

56:19

listened to now. And she talks a little

56:21

bit less. You

56:23

know, she stands up and she says certain

56:25

things because she's got us on on a certain track.

56:28

And she really gets listened to carefully. Oh,

56:30

I'm so pleased to hear that. Gina

56:34

McCarthy started going gray at

56:36

the age of 13. 13. Oh,

56:39

my gosh. I know. But she said she loved it.

56:41

Yeah, right. Well, it's, it's so stunning

56:44

when you're when you're young. That's what she said.

56:46

She said it distinguished her she because she has blue

56:48

eyes. And she had this beautiful

56:51

gray hair. And she said it was like, it

56:53

made her feel really special. She says now she doesn't

56:55

feel special. But she it's

56:57

still very pretty. Yeah, so interesting.

57:00

Was that a hard decision for you to make that

57:02

decision to go gray?

57:04

Yeah, it was a huge decision. It

57:07

be and I planned to do it when I was 70. But

57:11

then somehow the days went by,

57:13

I sort of got through my 70s. And

57:15

then and then I think it was a long

57:18

around that when I was in my late 70s, that I said,

57:20

I really was curious as

57:22

to what was under there. Yeah. And then

57:25

I found a wonderful hairdresser who

57:27

shepherded me along and helped me do it. And

57:30

it was very encouraging, which is very important,

57:32

you know, because it's a big change. I was

57:34

happy I did it. But I still you know, when

57:36

I see pictures of myself as a brunette, I think,

57:39

well, but well, you can always die back.

57:43

I like your gray hair, mommy. I think it looks

57:45

fantastic. I really do.

57:47

I thanks. Thanks, sweetheart. I I'm

57:49

glad I did it. And I've never, you know, I've never really

57:52

seriously considered going backwards.

57:54

So once you've done it, you've done it, you've done

57:56

it.

57:57

Well, I love you, Tuns. And I

58:00

will talk to you later. Thank

58:03

you for doing such good

58:05

work for not only for your

58:07

family and for the people that you love but for

58:09

all the people that you love in the world. Okay,

58:12

you're welcome world and mommy. Okay, I

58:15

mean that too, honey. I really mean that. Yeah. Okay, thanks mom.

58:19

Love you. Okay, love you. Bye

58:21

mom. Mom.

58:27

Mom. Okay,

58:30

my mother didn't push leave. We're

58:34

just looking

58:36

at her desktop,

58:38

possibly. Mom,

58:41

can you hear me? Yeah. Okay,

58:44

hold on. I'm in a collar. Oh,

58:47

brother. Mom. Can

58:51

you hear me? Yeah. Okay,

58:53

mom. You've, um, can you hear me? Yep.

58:57

Okay, you've kept the zoom

58:59

on on your computer. So if you can go

59:01

back to your computer and

59:03

now I see you now I see you I have

59:05

not been able to get this like this before

59:07

now. Okay. And all that stuff.

59:09

So I'm leaving

59:10

now. Okay, leave now. Thank you. Thank

59:13

you. Okay, bye.

59:27

There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada

59:29

Premium. Subscribers get exclusive

59:31

access to bonus content. Subscribe

59:34

now in Apple Podcasts. Wiser

59:37

Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media created

59:39

and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus.

59:42

The show is produced by Chrissy Pease,

59:44

Alex McOwen and Oja Lopez.

59:47

Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Our

59:49

senior editor is Tracy Clayton. Rachel

59:52

Neal is our senior director of new content

59:54

and our VP of weekly production is Steve

59:56

Nelson.

59:57

Executive producers are Stephanie

59:59

Whittles-Wack. Jessica Cordova-Kramer,

1:00:02

Paula Kaplan, and me. The show

1:00:04

is mixed by Kat Yor and Johnny

1:00:06

Vince Evans and music by Henry

1:00:08

Hall. Special thanks to Charlotte

1:00:11

Christman Cohen and of course, my mother,

1:00:13

Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser

1:00:15

Than Me wherever you get your podcasts and

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