0:00

Are you supposed to wish people

0:02

a happy Earth Day? I'm not

0:04

sure. But to celebrate, I'm going

0:07

to be talking about a big

0:09

climate problem on behalf of our

0:11

food waste fighting sponsor, Mill.

0:14

It's an issue that I care a lot

0:16

about, so please do stick around for

0:18

the ads. In

0:27

the wiser -than -me episode you're about

0:29

to hear, I mentioned my

0:31

house. A beautiful, perfect,

0:33

old Spanish revival home that

0:35

was built in the 1920s

0:37

where we raised our two

0:39

boys and lived happily ever

0:41

after for 31 years. A

0:44

few weeks later, that

0:46

very house and everything in

0:49

it all burned down in the

0:51

Palisades fire in Los Angeles. We

0:54

lost everything. all of

0:56

our family photos and treasures,

0:58

every memento from my career,

1:00

I mean just everything. It's

1:02

an unspeakable personal tragedy,

1:05

but truthfully in the end we

1:07

do count ourselves lucky. Our

1:09

family is safe, thank God. We

1:12

have a place to stay. We have

1:14

some insurance. We have

1:16

the resources to weather this storm and

1:18

God knows not everybody

1:20

does have that. This

1:22

wildfire happened about two weeks

1:25

before Inauguration Day and since

1:27

that day, it has been

1:29

a metaphorical wildfire. We have

1:31

been overwhelmed with a chaotic

1:33

frontal attack on everything from

1:35

science to the economy to

1:38

immigrants to democracy itself. It

1:40

is just completely nuts. It's

1:42

so nuts that we're barely

1:44

even talking about maybe the

1:46

biggest danger lurking in the

1:48

shadows. Actually, hardly the shadows.

1:51

the climate disaster. It

1:53

may feel existential right now, but, you

1:55

know, truthfully, the climate crisis is

1:57

not something that is on the way.

2:00

It's actually something that is very

2:02

much here right now. There's

2:05

a metric that scientists use

2:07

to determine the role of

2:09

the climate emergency and fire

2:11

risk. This metric considered a

2:13

set of factors like temperature,

2:15

humidity, wind speed, and precipitation

2:17

to estimate that the fire

2:19

that burned down the Pacific Palisades

2:21

and Altadena in Los Angeles

2:23

was 35 % more likely thanks

2:26

to climate change. So,

2:28

yeah, the climate crisis helped

2:30

burn down my house and

2:32

I take that very personally.

2:35

I know it's hard, of

2:37

course, but now is not

2:39

the moment to turn our

2:41

attention away from championing the

2:43

environment. Here's an example

2:45

from right here in Santa

2:47

Barbara, where I am right now.

2:50

A decade ago, a decrepit

2:53

pipeline in the Santa Barbara

2:55

Channel exploded and spilled more

2:57

than 400 ,000 gallons of oil

2:59

into the Pacific Ocean, closing

3:01

fisheries, upending lives, killing

3:04

sea life, and threatening

3:06

a vital ocean ecosystem that

3:08

is already under immense

3:10

stress. It was one of the

3:12

biggest oil spills in California history. And

3:15

now, an oil company

3:17

called Sable is trying to

3:19

restart this same corroded

3:21

failed pipeline without environmental review

3:23

or public comment. Sable's

3:26

project has been issued a

3:28

cease and desist order by

3:30

state government agencies, but shockingly,

3:32

the company simply ignores that

3:34

order and keeps working. But

3:38

citizens in Southern California know how

3:40

important our coast is, and we're

3:42

not going to let them get

3:44

away with it, not without a

3:46

genuine fight. It's

3:48

very hard to keep all the battles

3:50

we need to fight right now

3:52

straight. Every institution we

3:55

hold sacred, everything dear seems

3:57

to be threatened. And

3:59

just like you, I am

4:01

so exhausted, oh my god, and

4:03

I am sickened by the

4:05

whole thing. So, I'm

4:07

trying to pick my fights. I'm

4:10

thinking globally, and

4:12

I am acting locally, like

4:15

battling this awful sable

4:17

oil pipeline plan. If

4:19

you want, you can join me

4:21

in that fight by donating at EnvironmentalDefenseCenter

4:23

.org. There's a link in the show

4:25

notes, and we'll also have it

4:27

on the Wiser Than Me Instagram. Or

4:30

you can find a fight of

4:32

your own right where you live. There

4:34

are great, great rewards in fighting

4:36

for something noble, like the future of

4:38

the planet, of a lake, of

4:40

river, a mountain, or the mighty ocean

4:42

from which our gooey ancestors crawled

4:44

and evolved into the beautiful flawed humans

4:46

that we are today. And

4:49

that's why it's kind of perfect that on

4:51

Earth Day, we have one

4:53

of the greatest ocean activists scientists

4:55

who ever lived as our guest. A

4:58

woman who must have gills

5:00

by now. She has spent

5:02

so much time submerged in

5:04

the sea. A powerfully brilliant

5:06

explorer, scientist, and environmental advocate,

5:08

and someone who has owed

5:10

so much wiser than me.

5:12

Dr. Sylvia Earle. I'm

5:23

Julia Louis -Dreyfus and this is Wiser

5:25

Than Me, the podcast where I get

5:27

schooled by women who are wiser than

5:30

me. Before

5:44

the 1950s,

5:46

ocean exploration was

5:48

a lot

5:50

like space travel.

5:52

wildly dangerous and experimental.

5:55

The gear looked like something straight out

5:57

of a Jules Verne novel. It

5:59

really did. Back

6:04

then, oxygen regulators would notoriously

6:06

malfunction, meeting a life -or -death struggle

6:08

to reach the surface. Divers

6:10

faced constant risks from decompression

6:12

sickness to the near impossibility of

6:15

communicating with the surface. They

6:17

had to rely on pure instinct

6:19

and experience. It makes

6:21

you wonder, with all that danger, what

6:23

kind of person would go down there

6:25

anyway? It would have to be a

6:27

true explorer, someone who's drive to discover

6:29

the unknown was stronger than their fear

6:31

of what could happen. Someone

6:34

just like our guest, Sylvia

6:36

Earle. Sylvia is

6:38

a world -renowned marine biologist,

6:40

activist, and oceanographer who has

6:42

spent over 7 ,000 hours

6:44

underwater. 7 ,000

6:46

hours for context. That

6:49

is almost 10 entire months. She

6:52

has led over 100 expeditions. She's

6:54

written more than 200 publications on

6:56

the wonders of the ocean. She's

6:58

a pioneer in American diving.

7:00

Sylvia descended 1 ,250 feet to

7:03

walk untethered on the ocean floor

7:05

and became the first human

7:07

man or woman to ever venture

7:09

so deep in this way.

7:11

At the core of all of

7:14

her scientific work, Sylvia has

7:16

been delivering a powerful message. She

7:18

is asking, begging us, in

7:20

fact, to see the ocean as

7:22

a place we are intricately

7:24

connected to. She should know. She's

7:27

been diving for over 50

7:29

years and has witnessed firsthand the

7:31

changes in our oceans, the

7:33

grave effects of overfishing,

7:36

pollution, and climate change. And

7:38

she's still diving. at the age

7:40

of, well, we're going to ask her

7:42

age. Dr. John

7:44

McOsker, head of San Francisco Steinhardt

7:47

Aquarium and someone who has worked with

7:49

Sylvia for many years said, I

7:51

think Sylvia may have mellowed a

7:53

bit in recent years and thank goodness

7:55

because her magnetism and dynamism are

7:57

almost impossible to keep up with. Sylvia

8:00

in her most enthusiastic state is

8:02

just too hot to handle. And

8:04

that's exactly how we like her

8:06

here on Wiser Than Me. She

8:08

is the president and chairman of

8:11

Mission Blue, a critical organization and

8:13

global coalition that inspires public awareness,

8:15

access, and support for a worldwide

8:17

network of marine protected areas. She

8:19

is the winner of the Stephen

8:21

Hawking Medal for Science Communication, a

8:24

Ted Prize, and has been inducted into

8:26

the National Women's Hall of Fame and

8:28

recognized by the Library of Congress as

8:30

a living legend. She's a mother. an

8:33

aquanaut and a woman

8:35

who is infinitely wiser than

8:37

me. Sylvia Earle,

8:39

Dr. Sylvia Earle, I

8:41

should say, welcome, Sylvia.

8:44

Great to be on board, really.

8:46

Thank you so much. Speaking of

8:49

being on board, as I'm looking

8:51

at you here on our Zoom

8:53

for our listeners, you're on a

8:55

boat, Sylvia. I am. I'm offshore

8:57

in the Gulf of Mexico. One

8:59

of my favorite places. Yes,

9:01

I know indeed. And

9:03

you spent a lot of your

9:05

youth in that area. I

9:07

do need to start our podcast by

9:09

asking you how old you are, if

9:11

you're willing to say. Not old enough

9:14

yet. Still working on growing up. Do

9:18

you want to say your age? I

9:20

came along in

9:22

1935. You do the math. Oh,

9:24

God. OK. I'm not good at math,

9:26

but. That

9:28

means you're 89. Yeah. Okay. So, uh,

9:30

I want to ask you what is

9:32

the best part about being your age

9:34

right now? And also how old do

9:36

you feel? I mean, I think I

9:38

know the answer to that, but I

9:40

would be so curious to know really. I

9:44

don't feel any particular age. I

9:46

mean, my knees are a little

9:48

creaky. Yeah. Um, divers,

9:50

especially over time because

9:52

you keep. stressing your

9:54

ears. I don't hear as well as

9:56

I did when I was a teenager. Oh. Interesting.

10:00

But if you focus too much

10:02

on how old or young you

10:04

are and use it as a

10:06

reason why you can't do something,

10:08

why you shouldn't, I just say

10:10

why not? Why not? Oh, I

10:12

love that. It's up to you. Yeah.

10:14

You're too tall, you're too short, you're

10:16

too fat, you're too thin, you're the

10:18

wrong color, you speak the wrong language,

10:20

whatever it is. There are plenty of

10:22

excuses why People tell you

10:24

you cannot do that. Yeah, look them

10:27

in the eye and say why not

10:29

there may be reasons maybe good reasons

10:31

Okay, but don't let somebody else tell

10:33

you that yeah, that's incredibly wise By

10:35

the way, we had the lucky chance

10:37

many many years ago to meet here

10:39

at my house I don't know if

10:41

you remember this but you came and

10:43

spoke you may not remember because I

10:46

do probably I do remember. Yeah, it

10:48

was for Heal the Bay. Yes. It

10:50

was an event for Heal the Bay

10:52

in Los Angeles, a wonderful

10:54

local organization that is dedicated to

10:56

protecting the Bay in Santa

10:58

Monica and, you know, up and

11:00

down the coast here of

11:02

Los Angeles County. And I'm a

11:04

big believer in local and

11:07

grassroots environmental movements, as I'm sure

11:09

you are too, Sylvia. So

11:12

it was... was really, it was

11:14

really an honor to have you

11:16

in the house and we raised

11:18

a lot of money that night

11:20

for that organization. So I thank

11:22

you again for that. And we

11:24

both have an association with NRDC.

11:26

Oh, that's right. Of course. Yes.

11:28

We're both associated with the Natural

11:30

Resources Defense Council and they, of

11:32

course, do wonderful work as defenders

11:34

of our planet in the courts.

11:37

So back to sort of the more sort

11:39

of almost silly questions that I want

11:41

to ask you. You are such a get

11:43

up and go person. I want to

11:45

know, I'm assuming you're like a morning

11:48

person. Are you somebody who rises early

11:50

and sort of gets going? What's your deal

11:52

in the morning? I want to know. Well,

11:55

I travel quite a lot right

11:57

now. So morning is

11:59

wherever I am. I

12:02

do like to get up early. I also

12:04

like to stay up late. Oh, you

12:06

do? But I also like to sleep. So

12:09

so you want it all you want

12:11

it all Sylvia don't you? Yes

12:13

without question. I just need my seven

12:15

to eight hours of sleep and if

12:17

I get that I'm set. I'm done

12:19

I can't remember where I read this,

12:22

but I heard that you don't like

12:24

working out per se exercise for the

12:26

sake of exercise I'm assuming that the

12:28

physical activity that you get is with

12:30

your Diving and being in the water.

12:32

Am I correct to say that? Well,

12:35

as often as I can

12:37

get there, but running through airports,

12:40

lifting bags into the overhead

12:42

compartment on a long distance

12:44

flight, or just staying active

12:46

every day. Can you take

12:48

us back and just tell

12:50

us about your very first

12:52

dive and the experience of

12:54

your first dive and how

12:57

it hooked you? What happened

12:59

to Cousteau too? He said the first time he

13:01

put his face in the water, He

13:03

came back up. He went down, came

13:05

back up. It's like, where

13:07

am I? I had

13:09

no idea that this existed. It's

13:11

like going through a secret

13:13

door into... Narnia. Narnia. Yeah. There

13:15

you go. For real, right?

13:18

For real. Yeah. What do

13:20

you wish people, the

13:22

average person, knew about

13:24

the ocean? That

13:26

it's alive. It's not just

13:28

rocks and water. Mm -hmm. From

13:31

the top. All the way

13:33

to the bottom and even

13:35

beneath the bottom of the

13:37

ocean all life needs water

13:39

at least life as we

13:41

know it and 97 %

13:43

of Earth's water is ocean

13:46

and the rest that 3 %

13:48

is mostly ice Antarctic and

13:50

Arctic and Glacier ice and

13:52

We need to take care

13:54

of the ocean. That's where

13:56

life is the ocean governs

13:58

climate and weather the ocean

14:01

governs our life support system.

14:03

The ocean makes Earth habitable.

14:05

The living ocean isn't just

14:07

rocks and water, but

14:09

97 % of the

14:11

ocean is currently open

14:13

for exploitation. Only 3 %

14:15

is highly or fully

14:18

protected. And that's part of why I'm

14:20

here in the Gulf of Mexico. There's

14:22

a goal, I'm sure you know, many

14:24

people probably don't know that

14:26

nations around the world have

14:29

Most of them have come

14:31

together to say that by

14:33

2030, it's not far away

14:35

now, of course, but to

14:38

safeguard 30 % of the land

14:40

and sea that give back

14:42

to nature to secure our

14:44

safety, our security by securing

14:46

our life support system, the

14:48

diversity of life in the

14:50

ocean. Well, then let

14:52

me ask you this, because like for

14:54

the people who are listening to this, you

14:57

know, it feels I mean,

14:59

I know we have the chance, but it's

15:01

a daunting task. It doesn't mean it can't

15:04

be done, of course. But what

15:06

can we say to

15:08

our listeners? What can an

15:10

individual do? What are

15:12

actions individuals can take in

15:14

their own lives towards this goal

15:16

that you're discussing? Are there

15:18

actions they can take? So

15:21

many possible things. Nobody can do...

15:23

I can't do what you do,

15:25

Julia. I mean... can't do what

15:27

anybody else does. Everybody has power.

15:30

My question is, what have you got? Do

15:32

you have a way with music? Are you

15:35

a great communicator? Are you good with kids?

15:37

Do you love animals? Are

15:39

you okay with signing up and being

15:41

a part of an organization that's

15:43

doing something that you see as doing

15:45

the right thing by your measure? Whatever

15:48

it is you've got, do

15:50

you have resources that you

15:52

can invest in solutions? Everybody

15:56

can do something. Nobody can do it

15:58

all, but working together, we can

16:00

come up with ways starting

16:02

in your backyard or starting in

16:04

your community to give back

16:07

to nature. Just think, craft

16:09

your own recipe

16:11

for what you can

16:13

do is special

16:15

to you. I

16:17

mean, there are people who sing

16:19

and they convert people with their inspiration.

16:23

They're those who write, whether it's poetry

16:25

or scientific articles, they're using what they've

16:27

got to go from where we are

16:29

to get to a better place. Kids

16:31

go out on the beach, they start

16:33

picking up trash, and

16:35

you see grown -ups watching

16:37

the kids take the leadership.

16:41

The kids can inspire all

16:43

of us. Their future is

16:45

on the line. And,

16:47

you know, I have for many

16:49

years worked with National Geographic. and

16:52

been involved as an explorer

16:54

with them and going way

16:56

back and tell stories and

16:58

inspire people and then find

17:00

something that you can do

17:02

that inspires you. Well it's

17:04

interesting you say that about

17:07

telling stories because I will

17:09

tell you that I snorkel

17:11

but I did go diving

17:13

once and I unlike you

17:15

Sylvia. was filled with fear.

17:19

And I had an

17:21

instructor and I saw

17:23

nothing on this dive

17:25

except the ass of

17:27

my instructor. He

17:31

probably thought I was coming on to

17:33

him because I was so close to him

17:35

the entire time. I was terrified. So

17:37

I'm not cut out for the

17:39

actual diving. But I have the

17:41

utmost respect, of course, for

17:44

you and for those who dive and for

17:46

you in particular. Don't

17:50

go anywhere. There's more with Sylvia Earle

17:52

after this quick little break. So

18:06

today is Earth Day and it

18:08

has me thinking about the planet a

18:10

little more than usual. Everyone I

18:12

know from coast to coast is impacted

18:14

by climate change in some way. I

18:17

know I certainly am. The hard part

18:19

is that it can feel like there

18:21

isn't anything we can do about it

18:23

or Maybe it's just that there

18:25

are too many things we're supposed to do to

18:27

help. We're supposed to drive an electric car.

18:29

We need to go vegan. We need to reuse

18:31

plastic bags or take shorter showers. We need

18:34

to stop having birthday parties with balloons. Balloons

18:36

are especially bad. I mean, you know,

18:38

boy, it's a lot. And that's

18:40

when it's easy to just

18:42

freeze and do nothing. Well,

18:45

instead, maybe we should

18:47

triage the situation. I

18:49

mean, we can only do one thing at

18:51

a time. So what can we start with?

18:54

What's one easy thing we can do to help

18:56

the planet right now? You ready?

18:59

We can stop putting food in

19:01

the garbage. I'm not joking.

19:03

We're talking banana peels, carrot

19:05

tops, old leftovers, eggshells, and coffee

19:07

grounds, and chicken bones. Because

19:10

here's the not very fun facts.

19:13

Food waste is the most common material

19:15

in landfills. And most of it

19:17

comes from our own homes, not from

19:19

big ag or fast food. The

19:22

clincher? All of this food

19:24

generates huge amounts of methane,

19:26

which is like a greenhouse

19:28

gas on steroids, 80

19:30

times more potent than

19:32

CO2. I

19:34

mean, the carbon footprint of U .S.

19:36

food waste is more than that of

19:38

the airline industry, if you can

19:40

even believe that. And while there may

19:42

be even bigger climate problems, food

19:45

waste seems to be the most pointless,

19:47

because it's a problem every one

19:49

of us could help solve every day

19:51

from our own homes. Regular

19:53

listeners to wiser than me might

19:55

have heard me say before that

19:57

I'm an investor and kind of

19:59

evangelist for the mill food recycler.

20:02

And this is technically an ad

20:04

for mill, but today on Earth

20:06

Day, mill wants me to tell you something

20:08

different. You don't need a

20:10

mill food recycler to stop wasting

20:12

food. Seriously, there are so many

20:15

ways to start keeping food out

20:17

of the trash in any kitchen.

20:19

on any budget. Like, for example,

20:21

you can buy only what you

20:23

need. You can use a

20:25

curbside organic spin if you have one.

20:27

If you're a total badass, you

20:29

can start a compost pile or a

20:31

worm bin, whatever the hell that

20:33

is. Granted, if you want to

20:35

make all of that totally effortless

20:37

and odorless and kind of magical, you

20:40

might really want the mill food recycler.

20:42

But I'm going to get into that later.

20:44

The big, bold headline

20:46

today is super straightforward. please

20:49

please keep food out of

20:51

the trash by any means

20:54

necessary. And if we can

20:56

all do this one easy

20:58

good thing, maybe we can

21:00

worry about the other 10

21:02

,000 things tomorrow. I

21:06

want to talk about that record

21:08

making dive I mentioned earlier when I

21:10

introduced you. When you walk untethered

21:12

1 ,250 feet down on the ocean

21:14

floor, my God, what does it mean

21:17

to walk on the ocean floor

21:19

untethered? Sylvia, what does it actually mean?

21:22

To be able to

21:24

walk freely, people

21:26

cannot normally dive in

21:28

compressed air or even

21:30

using a mixture of

21:32

gases on scuba. 50

21:34

meters, you know, 150 feet is

21:37

a deep dive. With

21:39

special mixes of gases, you

21:41

can go down deeper than

21:43

that. But not very many

21:45

people do it because it's

21:47

experimental. Commercial divers do

21:49

it in the oil patch, in

21:51

the salvage work. But

21:53

you wouldn't do it recreationally

21:55

for the most part. But

21:57

to be able to package

22:00

yourself as I did, in

22:02

a system that is one

22:04

atmosphere. I was in a

22:06

system that is known as an

22:08

armored suit. It's like a suit

22:10

of armor, actually. It keeps the

22:12

pressure. Yeah. And so I could

22:14

go down as I did to

22:17

400 meters. It's 1

22:19

,250 feet. Wow. And normally

22:21

there would be a line

22:23

going all the way back

22:25

to the surface. Yes. Using

22:27

a diving suit of that

22:30

sort. Yes. In my case, I

22:33

had no line back to the

22:35

surface. I went down on the nose

22:37

of a little submarine. I

22:39

was like a hood ornament on the

22:41

front of the submarine. Wow. It descended

22:43

and then walked off. And

22:45

there was a communication

22:47

line between the submersible and

22:49

myself, but no line back

22:51

to the surface. How

22:54

long did you do it for?

22:56

How long were you walking like

22:58

that in that suit? Time on

23:00

the ocean floor was two and

23:02

a half hours, which is about

23:04

the same as that first moonwalk.

23:06

For those two and a half

23:08

hours, what were you thinking about?

23:10

Was it like a meditation? No.

23:12

Did time fly by? Full alert.

23:14

And what was the most mundane

23:16

thought when you were down there

23:18

raking, by the way, a world

23:20

record? What were you thinking, Sylvia?

23:23

Really? Well, mundane. I

23:25

was thinking, The port, the

23:27

little window that I... There are

23:29

three little round portals that I

23:31

could look through. They

23:33

were fogging up. The water

23:35

around was cold inside. It was

23:37

warm because I'm a warm -body

23:40

person. And I

23:42

had to keep scrubbing the glass so

23:44

I could see. But,

23:46

you know, there's just... The time

23:48

went by so fast. It

23:50

was just glorious. It's

23:53

right at the edge of light.

23:55

It's a twilight zone, literally, where

23:57

I can look up and I

23:59

can see that it's slightly lighter above

24:01

than below and these luminous creatures,

24:04

little fish with lights down the side. Did

24:07

you have lights on you?

24:09

Were you illuminating the area or

24:11

no? No, but the submarine

24:14

that was nearby

24:16

had lights and I asked them, turn

24:19

off the lights so I

24:21

can see what it's like to

24:23

be there without see what the

24:25

creatures experience. And there

24:27

were some long whisker

24:30

-like corals

24:32

that are about six to

24:34

nine feet tall. Oh.

24:36

And when you touch them, they

24:39

just burst with bioluminescence,

24:41

little rings of blue

24:43

fire. Wow. And

24:46

I was, I just

24:48

was mesmerized, of course, but

24:50

I could not take any photographs.

24:53

You know fast forward

24:55

to about three years ago when

24:57

I was able to go back

24:59

with my grandsons I

25:01

have four grandsons two were

25:03

with me and We had

25:05

a new low light level

25:07

camera, which means you can almost

25:09

take pictures in the dark Oh tiny

25:11

bit of light bioluminescence is

25:13

enough to be able to

25:15

image these creatures So instead of

25:18

just going down and

25:20

experiencing bamboo coral doing

25:22

its amazing I was

25:24

able to go and share

25:26

the view with my grandsons

25:28

and they, using this

25:30

fancy new equipment, documented

25:33

it. One of

25:35

the times that you lived

25:37

under water was in

25:39

the 70s on the Tectite

25:42

II with a crew

25:44

of all women. And

25:46

I'm curious about what that experience

25:48

was like being in the company

25:51

of only women. Was there a

25:53

distinction that you can identify? It

25:56

was pure joy, you know.

26:01

Curiously, it didn't start out that

26:03

way when the notice appeared on

26:05

the bulletin board at Harvard. Anybody

26:07

wants to live underwater for a

26:09

couple of weeks. Right. This is

26:11

during the high point of... going

26:13

to the moon, so astronauts and

26:15

aquanauts were kind of mushed together

26:17

with a similar kind of aura. And

26:20

as a scientist, the idea

26:22

that I could actually stay

26:24

underwater and use the ocean

26:26

as a laboratory day and

26:28

night, swim out anytime you

26:30

wanted to, get to know

26:32

individual fish, and really see

26:34

the ocean in a new

26:36

way. And I talked with

26:38

some of my fish

26:40

friends, ichthyologists who specialize in

26:42

fish. And we decided to

26:45

team up and we put

26:47

together, I thought, some pretty good

26:49

proposals that went to the Smithsonian. They

26:52

thought they were great proposals, but there was

26:54

a glitch. They did not

26:56

expect women to apply at all. They

26:59

never bothered because there are

27:01

no women astronauts until 1986. This

27:03

is 1969. And

27:06

so the head of

27:08

the program, James Miller,

27:10

I think had a good

27:12

marriage. He had, you

27:14

know, a good relationship with his mother

27:16

and had a daughter. His

27:18

response when said, should we

27:20

really think about having women as

27:23

well? Why not have the

27:25

fish or female? I guess

27:27

we could put up with a few

27:29

women. But they couldn't

27:31

let men and women

27:33

live together underwater in

27:35

1970. Different culture today.

27:37

Look, space station men and women

27:39

lived together. Airplanes, you

27:41

know, you fly, it's not

27:43

a big deal. Right. But it

27:46

was a big deal then. So

27:48

they had to put together a

27:50

women's team and actually had to

27:52

find an engineer who was willing

27:54

to come and be a part

27:56

of this. The others

27:58

involved applied the way I

28:00

did and they just patched

28:02

us together irrespective of our

28:05

compatibility. But hey, You

28:07

know, women get along.

28:10

Yeah, women find a way to work it out, don't

28:12

they? Are you in touch with any of those women

28:14

today? Yeah. Well, one of

28:16

them, sadly, is gone. One

28:18

is a choral scientist, and

28:20

we stay in touch from time

28:22

to time. Another became an

28:25

environmental lawyer. She got her PhD

28:27

at Scripps in Zoology, but

28:29

then got her law degree in

28:31

the engineer. Peggy Lucas

28:33

lives in Hawaii. And we talk

28:35

from time to time. That's

28:37

so wonderful. That bond. What

28:39

an opportunity. How did

28:41

you make room in

28:43

your life for relationships?

28:45

Because you were on

28:48

the road all the

28:50

time, working passionately, doing

28:52

this extraordinary exploration, this

28:54

critical exploration. Can

28:56

you talk about the balancing act? You've

28:58

been married three times, I think? Yes,

29:00

so obviously I didn't. I

29:02

mean that didn't well except to

29:04

say you had relationships that work

29:06

for X amount of time But

29:09

you did have kids who are

29:11

who are still your kids. Yeah,

29:13

so can you talk about that?

29:16

How you managed that balancing

29:18

act with kids at home

29:20

well as I say evidently

29:22

didn't manage all that well

29:24

But my mom and dad

29:26

were together for 61 years.

29:28

It was a model. I

29:30

tried very hard to emulate.

29:32

I mean, that's what I thought was what I should

29:35

be doing. But what about the kids?

29:37

How did you do that? When

29:39

I could, I took them

29:41

with me to places. They've

29:43

been diving with dolphins and

29:45

whales and I mean, it

29:47

was almost a condition of either

29:50

it was acceptable for them

29:52

to go with me or usually

29:54

not all three, although sometimes

29:56

all three got to go with

29:58

me. But I don't know. There's

30:01

no recipe that I can tell

30:03

anybody else or that I can

30:05

learn except to say, well, Jeannie

30:07

Clark, the so -called

30:09

lady and the sharks, who started

30:12

the Cape Hayes Marine Laboratory, now

30:14

the Moat Marine Laboratory, she

30:16

had four kids and

30:18

somehow managed to run

30:20

a marine lab and

30:22

be a distinguished scientist.

30:25

For some, it was just

30:27

too much that they

30:29

decided just to stay solo.

30:31

some of the great

30:33

women scientists in order to

30:35

be able to stay

30:37

on point, you know,

30:39

they didn't have a partner who

30:41

cooked and did the laundry and it

30:44

took care of you when you're

30:46

sick. They had full speed

30:48

ahead. They didn't have much time or

30:50

take time for diversions. I

30:52

mean, the history is

30:54

full of such individuals who

30:56

had to give up. what

30:58

many people think of as

31:01

a normal relationship with family and

31:03

kids. Did your parents help

31:05

you with your kids? I

31:07

was really lucky to have

31:09

my parents live nearby and

31:11

take care of the kids. And

31:15

during the project where I

31:17

lived underwater, they actually came

31:19

and stayed at the home

31:21

in Los Angeles when I

31:23

was off aquanauting. Yeah,

31:26

right. That's so fantastic. Yeah,

31:28

no kidding. So

31:30

let's talk about

31:33

conservation. I mean, we have

31:35

been talking about it, but further about it. In

31:38

2018, you said you thought we

31:41

had five years to get this right,

31:43

to get this on track. Now,

31:45

of course, it's been six years. Do

31:50

you think we're fucked, Sylvia? Have

31:53

we done it? Have we done it to ourselves? Absolutely,

31:55

we have done it to ourselves, and

31:58

it's going to get harder. But

32:00

the sooner we take seriously

32:02

the opportunity that will never

32:04

be as good as it

32:07

is right now, it's a

32:09

race with what we're learning

32:11

and what we're losing. And

32:15

looking at the climate issues,

32:17

the loss of the natural

32:19

fabric of life, 5 %

32:21

maybe of old growth forest, old

32:24

growth, meaning Those systems

32:26

that have survived, they

32:28

were here preceding the

32:30

advent of Europeans arriving

32:32

in North America. Some

32:36

preceding going back literally

32:38

thousands of years that are

32:41

still intact. Few

32:43

trees in few places that

32:45

literally are more than a

32:47

thousand years old. Most of

32:49

them have been converted to

32:51

lumber, board feet that you

32:53

can measure in dollars. But

32:55

they're really priceless. What else

32:57

can I say? This

33:00

is the last best chance we'll ever

33:02

have, and it isn't just in North

33:04

America. It's across the

33:06

globe. So I'm excited

33:08

about a lot of things,

33:11

mostly the kids who, I say

33:13

to them, you're so fortunate.

33:15

You're a 21st century kid, and

33:17

I'm lucky too, as

33:19

a 21st, because of what we

33:21

know. that nobody could

33:23

know before. It's that

33:25

race with knowledge and loss.

33:29

But nobody had been to the moon

33:31

or the deepest part of the ocean.

33:33

Nobody knew about DNA or RNA or

33:35

the microbes that live within us that

33:37

we need. Now we might

33:39

come to realizing we need fish alive

33:41

in the ocean. We need them. Like

33:43

we need birds in the sky. We

33:46

need nature. We need a

33:48

living planet, not a dead

33:50

one. And just

33:52

what can anybody do

33:54

to restore life instead of

33:56

constantly being on the

33:58

killing side, the consuming side?

34:01

And if I could be born

34:03

any time, I think it

34:05

would have to be right about

34:08

now because of what's known

34:10

the best chance. What's known?

34:12

Yeah. And what the task ahead is,

34:14

it's quite clear, isn't it? Yeah, we

34:16

had no idea going back when I

34:18

was a kid that the kids of

34:20

today grow up with

34:22

that awareness that is

34:24

in their everyday existence.

34:27

Cause for hope. Cause for huge

34:29

hope. My

34:35

conversation with Sylvia Earle continues

34:37

in just a moment. Stay tuned.

34:52

Wiser Than Me Season 3 is

34:54

available ad -free when you subscribe

34:56

to Lemonade Premium. You'll also

34:58

get access to exclusive interview excerpts

35:00

from each episode. Subscribe now

35:02

in the Apple Podcast app. So

35:06

usually, Sylvia, we end our

35:08

conversations with a couple of

35:11

sort of quickie questions. Is

35:13

there something that you would

35:15

go back and tell yourself at

35:18

21 with the knowledge that

35:20

you have now? I

35:22

wish everybody could go back

35:24

to 50 years ago, whatever

35:26

it is, armed with what

35:28

we know now, and look

35:30

at the choices that we could have

35:32

made if we had known. Look

35:35

at the plastics for heaven's sakes. If

35:37

we had any idea they were

35:39

so useful, they'd been so much a

35:41

part of our modern culture that

35:43

it's hard to imagine a time when

35:45

there were no plastics, but I

35:48

can imagine because there were none. And

35:50

as I grew up, I embraced

35:52

them, but now we know.

35:54

I see. Imagine if all of

35:56

us could go... And have that

35:58

understanding, yeah. Right. How much more

36:00

we could save. There'd be more

36:02

tunas, there'd be more elephants, there'd

36:04

be more big old trees, there'd

36:07

be a better chance. There'd

36:09

be cleaner everything, yeah. But

36:11

it's going to get harder,

36:14

so welcome where you are,

36:17

when you are, right now. because

36:20

based on what we know, we know what

36:22

to do. Imagine if we didn't know. Yeah.

36:26

Lucky us. Lucky us. And

36:28

what are you looking forward

36:31

to, Sylvia? About

36:33

this time next year, a

36:35

new class of little submersibles, Honu,

36:38

H -O -N -U,

36:40

which is Polynesian

36:42

for turtle, the

36:44

land -sea connection, linked

36:46

to the Brando

36:48

Resort. in French

36:50

Polynesia. Yes.

36:53

So you have

36:55

responsible environmentally

36:57

conscious land -based, I

36:59

think of tourism as

37:01

education when it's done well.

37:03

Yes. Linked to a

37:05

research station in Tete Oroa

37:07

that is funded by

37:09

the Brando and private contributions

37:11

and now they're behind

37:13

getting two little thousand meter

37:15

submersibles that can service

37:17

individuals who want to

37:19

come and Really experience what

37:22

it's like in the

37:24

twilight zone Wow and for

37:26

scientists and for kids

37:28

and Just to be a

37:30

window into the deep

37:32

sea is now on the

37:34

crosshairs of exploitation the

37:36

deep zone where a layer

37:38

of life migrates vertically,

37:40

you know just packed with

37:42

little squids and luminous

37:44

creatures that William Beebe described

37:46

using the bathysphere, going

37:49

back to the 1930s, that

37:51

now, for the first

37:53

time, they're able to be

37:55

exploited, to gather all

37:57

those little fish and luminous

37:59

creatures, to grind up

38:01

and feed to salmon, to feed to

38:03

cows and pigs and chickens, just

38:05

take this, I know, it's just like,

38:07

whoa, wait, no, stop. It's what

38:10

they're doing with krill and Antarctica, what

38:12

they're doing with squid around the

38:14

world, just... them up to feed, it's

38:16

like taking songbirds and feeding them

38:18

to the pigs. Like, wait, stop. Don't

38:21

you know what you're doing? To get people

38:23

down there, of course, is

38:25

a nerdy scientist. I just want to

38:27

know who's living there. Yeah. That

38:29

would be my trajectory if it weren't

38:32

the sense of urgency about getting

38:34

others to see for themselves why we

38:36

need to look at the world,

38:38

look at the ocean with new eyes,

38:40

look at ourselves with new eyes.

38:42

Yeah. And treat one another. with

38:44

greater dignity and respect.

38:47

We need to make peace with nature, but

38:49

we need to make peace with ourselves,

38:51

too. Sylvia, I

38:54

think your wisdom

38:56

is unsurpassed and urgent

38:58

and so critical

39:00

for everyone to absorb.

39:03

Well, thank you. I hope

39:05

everyone over the next few

39:07

years will be following

39:09

the voyage of the Hokulea.

39:11

the sailing canoe, the

39:13

Polynesians of the same structure,

39:16

sailing across the Pacific with

39:18

a message of hope, of

39:20

making peace with the ocean, looking

39:23

at the issues like deep

39:25

sea mining and say, why would

39:28

anybody even think of undertaking

39:30

the destruction of the largest, last

39:32

remaining wilderness on the planet?

39:34

We have a chance to save

39:36

it or destroy it right

39:39

now. Be so glad that you

39:41

can be a voice for

39:43

keeping Earth safe. And

39:45

it's called the Mananuiakia,

39:47

this voyage of

39:49

hope, making peace with

39:52

the nations across the

39:54

Pacific, engaging the indigenous,

39:57

the people who've lived in places for a

39:59

long time, but who know the ocean,

40:01

the ocean is really their home. So

40:03

I urge everybody to tune in

40:05

and look at what others are

40:07

doing in your neighborhood, in your

40:09

city, in your state, in your

40:12

country, wherever your

40:14

community is, we're increasingly

40:16

global in our friendships.

40:18

Yeah, right. But find

40:20

some kindred spirits. See

40:23

what you can do to change this

40:25

trajectory of tipping in the wrong direction

40:27

to tipping in the right direction. We

40:29

can do this. Are you going to

40:31

go diving later today? In about five

40:34

minutes. Everybody's

40:37

ready. I'm ready.

40:39

They're waiting for you. Got my bathing

40:41

suit on. I love it. Well,

40:43

have a safe dive. Have a beautiful dive.

40:45

I wish you could be here. I would be

40:48

waiting for you on board with a cup

40:50

of coffee for when you came back up. We'll

40:53

see. I'll make you an

40:55

offer you can't refuse. Okay,

40:57

I will say that if I

40:59

have an opportunity to go diving with

41:01

you, I can't even clear my

41:03

ears. I've never been

41:06

able to do that. I mean, you

41:08

are talking to a

41:10

novice, novice, but I'm

41:12

enthusiastic. So maybe one day,

41:15

maybe one day we'll have the opportunity

41:17

and that would be a good day

41:19

for me. The urge to submerge in

41:21

a submarine. Thank

41:28

you for talking to me today.

41:30

I'm really grateful to you, and I

41:32

do hope our paths cross again. I

41:35

feel pretty sure it's going to

41:37

happen. I have such respect and

41:39

admiration for using your great sense

41:41

of humor to change the way

41:43

people think about themselves and the

41:45

world. So, go

41:47

Julia, go. Okay,

41:50

thanks, Sylvia. Go Sylvia, go. Do

41:52

it, do it, do it. Okay,

42:01

well, while Sylvia goes diving, I'm going to

42:03

call up my mom and I'm going to

42:05

tell her all about this conversation. Let's get

42:07

her on the Zoom. Hi,

42:13

Mommy. Hi, Sweet. Mother,

42:16

I have to tell you something. I

42:18

just finished speaking with Sylvia Earle, Dr.

42:20

Sylvia Earle, and I want to tell

42:22

you something. Our

42:25

conversation, guess where she was when I was

42:27

talking to her? Where? on

42:29

a boat in the Gulf of

42:31

Mexico in the middle of shooting a

42:33

documentary for National Geographic. In

42:35

her bathing suit, she had

42:37

already been on a dive, and as soon

42:39

as we ended, she was going back onto

42:41

another dive. She's

42:44

89 years old. I

42:46

know. I know. I read that.

42:48

She's born the year after me. Yes.

42:50

Incredible. Has she ever stopped because

42:53

I was looking at her record and

42:55

it looks like she's been diving

42:57

She's died every day of her

42:59

life. Yeah, she's she's been diving since

43:01

she was 16 years old and

43:03

No, it she's not stopped. She's I've

43:05

never seen anything quite like it

43:07

And it was an extraordinary conversation

43:10

because she's talking to me in her

43:12

bathing suit wearing her sunglasses hair

43:14

is wet, you know, she's like poise

43:16

to go right back in the

43:18

water again and she is Have

43:20

you ever been diving, mom, in your

43:22

life? Just snorkeling. Did

43:25

you like snorkeling? I adored

43:27

it. It's like another world. Oh,

43:29

I adored it. You were on

43:31

that same boat when we were in

43:33

Bermuda, and the fella took

43:35

us way out so that you were at

43:37

the edge of a cliff underwater. And

43:40

so then you snorkeled over

43:42

the cliff, and you looked down.

43:44

It was like Grand Canyon. and

43:46

then all this fish were coming and

43:48

we I mean it was like another

43:50

world oh my god I loved it

43:52

I loved it ah would you ever

43:54

have gone scuba diving I don't know

43:57

if I wanted to go deeper or

43:59

not but um snorkeling would have been

44:01

good enough for me well she talked

44:03

about her first experience of like She

44:05

was talking about it as if she

44:07

was going through a secret door into

44:09

another world, which is exactly what it's

44:11

like. There's so

44:13

much of the earth is covered in

44:15

ocean, and there's so much about the

44:17

ocean that's unexplored. And of course,

44:20

she's been at the forefront of that exploration.

44:22

She is an explorer. She's

44:24

an aquanaut. Aquanaut, I

44:26

love that word. Yeah, it's

44:28

a real word, isn't that neat?

44:30

Wonderful, wonderful, yeah. She has three

44:32

children. Three children and grandchildren, and

44:35

she's gone deep sea diving with

44:37

her grandsons. I think

44:39

she said she'd been on

44:41

a submersible with her grandsons. It's

44:43

incredible. Yeah. And can you

44:45

imagine having a grandmother that takes

44:47

you into places like that?

44:50

Right. Totally. Well, you're a

44:52

grandmother. You can take my kids

44:54

down a poetry rabbit hole. Why not?

44:56

Yeah, that's right. That's right. I've

44:58

got to find a way in. I've

45:01

got to find a way into their

45:03

psyche. So many people have this thing

45:05

about, yeah, poetry, you know. No, but

45:07

I think you have already. Remember when

45:09

Henry took a Mary Oliver poem and

45:11

he said it to music? Remember that?

45:14

I do remember that. I do. And

45:16

I remember that Brad and Henry set

45:18

a poem of mind to music for

45:20

my birthday. That's right. For your 90th

45:22

birthday, they did their

45:24

toast and they took

45:26

measure for measure. poem

45:29

and they said it to music and

45:31

I'm going to post that poem to

45:33

our wiser than me Instagram so people

45:35

can read it mama so wonderful oh

45:37

my gosh yeah and especially the the

45:39

line um abandon all stories for this

45:41

one this one yeah and they just

45:44

kept saying that yeah and that was

45:46

wonderful all right good well we've I

45:48

think we've done enough here I suspect

45:50

and um we'll say um we'll say

45:52

do and uh we'll say You

45:55

and which is a good I think

45:57

I got from you the idea. That's a

45:59

good wordle thing to start Oh, yeah,

46:01

a Jew is a good wordle word that

46:03

I got the other day was a

46:05

rise a rise is also good Yeah, yeah,

46:07

and so is crate and crane those

46:09

are also good wordle words good good I

46:11

have to say I love wordle so

46:13

much. Well, I do it until it becomes

46:15

like Oh, I've got to do this.

46:17

I've got to prove to myself I can

46:19

do it. It happens to me in

46:21

a certain way. So I let it go

46:24

for a few days then, and then

46:26

I just come back to it where it

46:28

can just be fun. When

46:30

I have that experience, what I do is

46:32

I walk away from it completely, but I don't

46:34

walk away for days. I just walk away

46:36

for a couple hours, then I come back to

46:38

it and my mind can be clear. I

46:41

have that with spelling B2,

46:43

but I will say I feel

46:45

very driven to do it.

46:47

because I find it's just satisfying.

46:49

Right. Mommy, I'm gonna go.

46:51

Okay, good. I'm going to meditate.

46:53

All right. I have a meditation

46:55

group here in 20 minutes. Perfect.

46:58

Okay. Well, I love you, love

47:00

you. Love you, love you. And

47:02

now we can say goodbye. Adieu.

47:04

Okay. Adieu. Love you. Bye.

47:06

Bye. Bye. There's

47:16

more Wiser Than Me with

47:18

Lemonade a Premium on Apple. You

47:20

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47:23

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47:27

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Subscribe now by clicking on the

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47:46

podcast. Wiser Than Me is

47:48

a production of Lemonade Media created

47:50

and hosted by me, Julia Louis -Dreyfus. This

47:53

show is produced by Chrissy

47:55

Pease, Jamila Zara Williams, Alex

47:57

McCohen, and Oha Lopez. Brad

47:59

Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel

48:02

Neal is VP of New Content

48:04

and our SVP of Weekly Content

48:06

and Production is Steve Nelson. Executive

48:08

producers are Paula Kaplan,

48:10

Stephanie Whittle's Wax, Jessica Cordova

48:13

-Cramer, and me. The

48:15

show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans

48:17

with engineering help from James Sparber, and

48:19

our music was written by Henry Hall,

48:21

who you can also find on Spotify

48:23

or wherever you listen to your music. Special

48:26

thanks to Will Schlagel and, of

48:28

course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser

48:30

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48:34

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