0:02

What's happening? to Wong to I'm

0:05

your host, Corey Wong. I'm your

0:07

I'm excited Wong. I'm on the

0:09

show we've got on the show we've

0:11

incredible Dobro and guitar

0:13

player, also also record producer. producer

0:15

knows how to produce, listen

0:17

to music, and direct a

0:19

band. He's one of He's one

0:21

of the finest Dobro players

0:23

to ever play the the He's

0:26

got countless got Actually,

0:28

that's a lie. Count that's a lie

0:30

count of 14 Incredible band leader

0:32

himself, himself, but a member of

0:34

Allison of Allison Kraus and session musician session

0:36

many people. people, goes crazy.

0:38

You can check it out. it

0:40

Parton, Parton, Clapton, Fish, Elvis, Costello, so so

0:42

many other things, but his

0:44

sound is incredible, sense of incredible

0:46

sense of musicianship and what

0:48

a song needs. Not just

0:50

from himself, but other musicians

0:52

as well, which is what

0:54

makes him a great producer

0:56

and band band leader. It's a

0:58

great conversation. I'm very excited

1:00

about this interview. I it.

1:02

you enjoy it. I hope you're having

1:05

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1:37

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1:39

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1:41

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1:43

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1:45

my with me, band got the got the band up.

1:47

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1:49

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1:51

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DistroKid. Alright, let's hit this episode. JD,

3:21

thank you so much for being with

3:23

us. It's a pleasure to have you on

3:25

the podcast today. Thanks. Thanks. I've heard

3:27

so much good stuff from Sierra Hull about

3:30

you guys. Oh, yes. She is

3:32

a great friend and I

3:34

asked her about you and I

3:36

have questions that came up

3:38

for me to ask you. And

3:40

it's been fun to kind

3:42

of be welcomed into some of

3:44

this bluegrass community and have

3:46

so many friends in it. I've

3:49

been learning so much. Well,

3:51

you know, it's a different animal,

3:53

isn't it? It's a sort

3:55

of an old form of music

3:57

that came from porches, know,

3:59

Yeah. who played people in... South

4:01

on the porch and became

4:03

this juggernaut of a genre that

4:05

it is right now. Yeah. It's

4:08

amazing that a music can come

4:10

from. well, they all

4:12

do come from nowhere, but Bluegrass

4:15

is is really has a It

4:17

really has a caricature. you

4:20

know, uh, it is a character.

4:22

Uh, it's a physical music, very

4:24

physical because it's all acoustic. Yeah.

4:26

Uh, and, uh, except for all

4:28

of us now who are plugging

4:30

in so we can play big

4:32

places. You know, you know, you

4:34

go out on a out on

4:36

a stage with a stage full

4:39

of microphones in an arena. Yeah.

4:41

You can't do it.

4:43

It's like playing the

4:46

national anthem. fly Yeah.

4:48

So yeah, it's a

4:50

it's a very physical

4:52

and dynamic music and

4:54

and I think Bluegrass

4:56

music has allowed me to go

4:58

into other genres just because of

5:00

the physicality of it. you know,

5:02

and and it of me. be

5:05

a chameleon a little bit, you

5:07

know? I I love

5:09

adapting to different situations. That

5:12

comes from doing 15 years as

5:14

a session musician. Yeah. you

5:16

gotta get in there. and Get it

5:18

right and get it fast. Yeah.

5:21

make and make and make

5:23

hook, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

5:25

Well, and honestly, there's not

5:27

so many genres nowadays that

5:29

require as much technical facility

5:31

as something like Bluegrass. I

5:34

mean, maybe it's just the circle

5:36

of friends that I have that

5:38

are in the genre, the Thielees

5:40

Billy Strings and Bayla and Sierra.

5:42

and all of those folks that that

5:44

I've played with so much, but

5:46

they have just some of the

5:48

most blistering technical facility. on their

5:51

instrument. And then beyond that,

5:53

there's also just so much.

5:55

shared language. So,

5:58

know, and, and repertoire, like I go. I

6:00

go sit in at certain jazz clubs

6:02

and it's like, okay, it's a

6:04

similar thing where there's a whole jazz

6:06

standard repertoire and in college, there

6:08

was like the real book and you

6:10

could either learn it from the

6:12

real book and this one will at

6:14

least tell you what's not, like

6:16

if you're brand new to jazz, the

6:18

real book's gonna be a couple

6:21

hundred tunes that it's telling you like,

6:23

yeah, you should know these ones,

6:25

but really if you wanna do it

6:27

right, you just like learn all

6:29

of the miles catalog and the train

6:31

catalog and all this others, know,

6:33

or it's like, yeah, but not all

6:35

that stuff's in the real book,

6:37

what tunes actually get called? And then

6:39

I'm, you know, there's the bluegrass

6:41

thing where I'm going and hanging with

6:43

these friends or like we were

6:45

in Ireland and there was a bluegrass

6:47

session that was happening. So everybody

6:49

knows these tunes that like kind of

6:52

crossover with Irish music as well.

6:54

It's like, wow, this American art form

6:56

mixed with this Irish art form

6:58

and there's like crossover of standards and

7:00

repertoire that everybody know. And then

7:02

we're at these jam festivals and out

7:04

in the parking lot just kind

7:06

of hanging and all these people, there's

7:08

so much just like somebody will

7:10

start one thing and boom, you just

7:12

know it and it's so cool

7:14

because there is, it seems like there's

7:16

a certain barrier to entry that

7:18

is so low where it's very inviting,

7:21

but then there's also something that

7:23

seems like it could be pretty intimidating

7:25

on the level of repertoire you

7:27

must know. Yeah. They suck you in

7:29

with that simple song and then

7:31

they drop, then they drop a baila

7:33

tune on you. Yeah, I know.

7:35

And then it's like, all right. Four

7:37

times. Yeah.

7:40

I mean, that could

7:42

be a mean trick, you

7:44

know, that bluegrass people

7:46

could play and any genre

7:48

could play. Okay. Here's

7:50

the steps ahead. Yeah. First,

7:52

we're going to play

7:55

just blue, you know? And

7:57

okay, that's easy. Now,

7:59

okay. Now, steps. Yeah, contusion. Here we

8:01

go. Here we go. with

8:03

you. Yeah. barrel with you. dangerous.

8:05

Yeah. I've been in those

8:08

Yeah, that's dangerous. before. I like

8:10

in those situations before. I

8:12

like I've overstepped. I feel like

8:14

you know, overstepped off and you

8:16

know, sort of back off

8:18

and listen to everything

8:20

and then just jump in,

8:22

you know, know, just That's

8:24

the only thing you can

8:26

do. only thing you can do. may

8:28

may, you may hit one. right out

8:30

of out of seven, but that

8:33

one note was was

8:35

committed. I was committed.

8:37

Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

8:39

it's all possible.

8:41

it? I mean, it? I mean,

8:43

we can play in all genres. We

8:46

We just have to... to We

8:48

just have to really listen. have

8:50

to just have to listen. Yeah. And

8:52

that's what I what

8:54

I learned a lot, a

8:56

lot of that again from. the

8:59

sessions, you know, going in and playing on

9:01

sessions, on songs that I've never heard

9:03

before. I've never you know, Yeah. You

9:05

know, minutes, we're done with that song. That song's

9:07

history is going to be on the radio.

9:09

People are going to listen to it for 20

9:11

years to be you may have a big. are going

9:13

to in the middle of it that they didn't

9:16

get. And you may have a big

9:18

clam in the middle of to listen

9:20

to it they didn't get. And time it

9:22

comes listen to it I just

9:24

don't listen to the radio. No,

9:26

I just don't listen to the radio. there's

9:28

also some something interesting. in

9:30

the session world session in

9:32

many forms of folk

9:35

music and bluegrass music especially. This

9:37

is This is not something, correct me if me if

9:39

I'm wrong on the sessions that you're doing, but

9:41

most of the sessions that I do. the sessions

9:43

around the Nashville scene. the Nashville

9:45

Like they might have somewhat of a number

9:48

chart or something, but so much of

9:50

it is using your ear and then memorization

9:52

and holding it in your brain. holding

9:54

noticed that And I've When I

9:56

am reading music, because I I

9:58

read music, I'm one of the

10:00

few guitar players, yay, good for me. But

10:03

But I'm reading music on the

10:05

guitar, whether it be a chord

10:07

chart or notes. I'm

10:09

so much more engaged on

10:12

the page than I am in

10:14

the room. because I'm focusing

10:16

on well this is the thing that they're telling

10:18

me to play and then I play it and I'm

10:20

focused on that and I do of course keep

10:22

my ears up for tones and how things are fitting

10:24

with everything else. But It's

10:27

merely impossible for me to memorize something

10:29

if I've just been reading it on the

10:31

page. But if I just hear it

10:33

or if I learn it by ear. I'll

10:36

remember it forever! Yeah,

10:38

it's how our brains work.

10:40

They'll take that in. They'll

10:44

take that in and your Your

10:47

brain takes it in

10:49

and it either memory.

10:51

keeps it there. You're

10:53

interested in it enough to keep it,

10:55

you know, there. You've

10:57

been on a lot of sessions as a

11:00

session player. You've been a

11:02

session leader, you've been a producer. A

11:05

lot of people that listen to

11:07

this podcast have messaged or emailed and

11:09

wondered. How do

11:11

you get session work? What is it that

11:13

makes a good session player? How come

11:15

I don't get hired for sessions and blah,

11:17

blah. And of course, today's era, the modern

11:19

version of. being

11:22

hired for sessions is way different than

11:24

it has been, so. So I I

11:26

do believe that there are general principles. that

11:28

we could learn from you. about

11:31

this. You can't,

11:33

and everyone can't follow the same

11:35

path into it. Like, when

11:37

I, you know, it is different

11:39

now because of home recording,

11:41

you know, you don't have to

11:43

go to a big. sound stage,

11:45

you know, to, and sit

11:47

there with, you know,

11:49

10 other people to put a rap,

11:51

to put a, put a song down.

11:53

You don't do that anymore. I wish

11:55

you did. I mean, all sounds good

11:57

to me. But

12:00

but get it getting into

12:02

the the session click, so

12:04

we'll call it Yeah, it

12:06

was for me. It was

12:09

it was Kind of hard until

12:11

I moved here to this town and

12:13

I just kind of got I got

12:15

lucky. I moved here at a time

12:17

when right at the end of what

12:19

they called the urban cowboy scare. Where

12:22

all the mechanical bulls and

12:24

the line dancing was happening I

12:27

got here just at the end of

12:29

that. Just as

12:31

the traditional country movement happened with

12:33

emi lu and Ricky scags

12:35

and Randy Travis and all those

12:37

people. and Dobro was

12:39

still a bit of a reach,

12:41

you know? I mean, the... Here

12:44

in town. In Nashville, it

12:46

was fiddle steel drums

12:48

and bass and And a

12:50

couple of guitar players, and then right

12:52

at the end of this, after we

12:54

got the take, the producer would. Every

12:58

time, Paula, okay, double

13:00

the acoustics. You

13:02

know? So they would

13:04

double the acoustics. So be even

13:07

more of the total spectrum

13:09

gone, Yeah, right the that the

13:11

cymbals and the guitars didn't

13:13

take up. It was like, okay,

13:15

we're fighting for the rest

13:18

of it now. Yeah So but

13:20

to be, to get on to

13:22

get on session team. Let's

13:25

call it. You you to get out and

13:27

play with a whole bunch of people. have to

13:29

play with a bunch of people. Go to

13:31

a and play with people and show them what

13:33

you can do. Show them how you're different. Yeah,

13:36

then what they've seen, you know,

13:38

if you're you're coming into town

13:40

or go go and listen, you

13:42

know just in these places. I

13:45

mean, there's Rob You know, you

13:47

can go down on Broadway here

13:49

in Nashville and and there's there's

13:51

been this line of telly slingers,

13:53

right? Starting with when I came

13:55

to town. I think Brent Mason

13:58

was playing in in Tutsi's Yeah.

14:01

He was the telly slinger.

14:03

Then it was Johnny Highlander

14:05

and Johnny Highland and and

14:07

and Guthrie trap Kenny,

14:10

Vaughan. Donato

14:12

all of them have done

14:14

their time down on on

14:16

Broadway it is a

14:18

cacophony. I mean You

14:21

roll your windows down. Roll

14:23

both windows down and go

14:25

down Broadway about nine o 'clock

14:27

on a Saturday night. And I've

14:29

done it and recorded it

14:31

with my phone. and then

14:33

try to play it back and try to pull

14:35

one note out of it. Impossible. It's

14:39

just like, it's just an an

14:41

assault on the senses to walk down

14:43

that street. It's just like, aha,

14:45

it makes you want to drink. And

14:49

that they do there, And

14:51

they do, and they always

14:53

have right there in that

14:56

corner, mean. Tank Williams and all

14:58

of them came out of the back

15:00

door of the rhyming went right into

15:02

Tootsies and got tanked and then came

15:04

back out and played their next opera

15:06

spot But

15:09

Back to the, back to the

15:11

here, you know you just have to people

15:13

have to see you play have to hear

15:15

you play and it's a word -of -mouth thing

15:18

And you know you get hired on a

15:20

buddy session somebody to pull you in I

15:22

pulled Stuart Duncan into a Randy Travis session

15:24

was the first one he did here in

15:26

town Yeah, and he didn't get he didn't

15:28

get great feedback at the time But

15:31

what a career he's turned that

15:33

into, know? Yeah. I

15:35

don't know how many records that guy's

15:37

played on we don't count those

15:39

things, it's just yeah, it's just it's

15:41

work. I mean, yeah, it's it's our livelihood.

15:44

And if you don't want to go

15:46

out and spend your life on the road.

15:49

Right now, being in the studio is

15:51

the place to be. And but

15:53

it's but it's not like it used to

15:55

be it's not like I remember I used

15:58

to be able to go down to music

16:00

grow. and go ahead and

16:02

park go ahead

16:04

then go do three sessions

16:06

that day and not Go

16:08

do three sessions that

16:10

day and not even get

16:12

back in my car I

16:14

I was going home. home.

16:16

Yeah. And that's not that's anymore. there

16:18

so. Yeah. know there

16:20

are lots of studios and are lots

16:22

part of town called Barry Hill

16:24

in a certain part of most of music

16:27

row has moved there, but Yeah.

16:29

You You know, it's, the secret

16:31

is just having people hear

16:33

you. hear you and don't try

16:35

to be Don't try to be different,

16:37

just be you. try and

16:39

don't try and don't try to

16:41

be somebody else. Yeah, that's more That's

16:44

more important. know, don't, don't

16:46

play your latest, don't auto

16:48

lick, you know. gonna,

16:50

They're going to you

16:52

to you pretty quick And

16:54

they'll just get him. Yeah, they'll

16:56

they'll just hire Daniel to do it. do not

16:59

do it then? do you think? Yeah. Well, I I have

17:01

a question also about, because of all the

17:03

albums of played on. you played

17:05

on, obviously very good reason

17:07

why people keep hiring you back. you And

17:09

it's not just just a great player,

17:11

because player. what? There's a lot of great

17:13

players out there. We all know that.

17:16

out there. We all know that. But far

17:18

as, you know, technical facility, they got

17:20

the chops, got they know the thing, they

17:22

have the ears. the ears. But

17:24

there's something in musical

17:26

sensibilities, sensibilities and taste that

17:28

really makes a lot that really makes

17:30

a lot of people unique. And what I

17:33

find it helps people get hired back all

17:35

the time. Is there a certain approach or

17:37

mindset that you come into sessions with? that

17:39

or recordings with. with or

17:41

be others. with not be

17:43

thinking about. might not be thinking about?

17:45

Maybe because huge suitcase

17:47

of of... tons of

17:50

sessions, you know, you know,

17:52

behind me, but me. But I

17:54

and I I very, very

17:56

early on, you know,

17:58

some of some the rules. of how you

18:00

build a solo, how you build a. how

18:03

you put a song together,

18:05

know, how you keep it

18:07

interesting. But just bringing that

18:09

studio savvy. is a lot

18:11

of it. And the more,

18:13

the more studio savvy you have, the

18:15

more you might be asked back

18:17

because They don't have

18:19

to ask you, don't play in this

18:21

area. Don't play in this registry. You know,

18:23

that's the kind of stuff I take

18:25

in with me. mean, one of the first

18:27

things I learned. in recording,

18:31

I was playing on Amy Lou Harris's

18:33

record. I think was roses in

18:35

the snow It was years ago. Brian

18:37

or her and her husband was producing.

18:39

Brilliant producer, just amazing

18:42

producer. but came here to

18:44

Nashville and could not get arrested.

18:46

It was just. tragic. But

18:48

I learned more from that guy

18:50

in recording. I was doing

18:52

an overdub on a song. and

18:54

he said, don't play in

18:56

Amy's register when she's singing.

18:59

Don't play in her register. And

19:02

I've carried that with me all

19:04

my life. mean, mean, I hear

19:06

Brian's voice every time I get. too

19:09

close to, especially

19:11

a female singer. Uh,

19:14

you get off the high end.

19:16

Just don't cancel her out, you

19:18

know, like we were talking. first,

19:20

I was talking about all those guitars

19:22

taking away the tonal spectrum. I

19:24

don't, don't you love to hear just

19:26

some open spaces in there somewhere,

19:28

you know? that someone

19:30

hasn't covered and, And and, uh,

19:33

I mean. It's, it doesn't have

19:35

to happen, but it's nice when you

19:37

hear just a space

19:39

that somebody didn't take. In

19:41

a fit of taste, you

19:43

know? They didn't play

19:45

that. They didn't play that one and

19:47

just left that one. So there's a

19:49

surprise down the road, you know? Yeah. Yeah,

19:52

sometimes I think that

19:55

the best thing you can play is nothing. Mm

19:58

-hmm, yeah In this music. is

20:00

he can mean in what

20:02

I was doing. And because I

20:04

would come in and I'm

20:06

not just a player, but I

20:08

have been a producer and

20:10

I know when to keep my

20:12

mouth shut, I'll say that.

20:14

I don't know if somebody's producing,

20:16

it's their show. But if

20:18

we're headed down a, if we're

20:20

headed over a cliff, I

20:22

might speak up, you know? But

20:25

I'll go over the cliff

20:27

with everybody once. But maybe not

20:29

twice, but yeah, it's just,

20:31

when you bring a lot of

20:33

experience into the studio with

20:35

you, you will get hired back

20:37

a lot. mean, that happened

20:39

in this town, you know, the

20:41

Nashville sound that happened here

20:43

in the 60s when Ched Atkins

20:45

was ruling the roost, you

20:47

know, and he had these guys

20:49

that he counted on to

20:51

be his rhythm section. mean, he

20:54

had it all planned out.

20:56

Every record started to sound the

20:58

same, you know? So

21:00

that's when things really changed

21:02

here in town. And a lot

21:04

of the guys that were

21:06

on the road found out they

21:09

could go into the studio

21:11

and really have their own, you

21:13

know, have a great, if

21:15

they had a great experience in

21:17

there after being on the

21:19

road and yeah, I don't know,

21:21

just knowing how loud to

21:23

be. there are a whole lot

21:25

of things. If you just

21:27

listen, you can figure it out,

21:29

you know? Well, you mentioned

21:31

some rules of soloing, a rule

21:33

to make a good solo. We're

21:36

a guitar podcast here. We have

21:38

our own guitar version of how we

21:40

do that. But I'm curious from

21:42

your standpoint, because a lot of people

21:44

that listen here are electric players,

21:46

but I would love to hear your

21:48

perspective on a few things that

21:50

make a great solo. Well, I think

21:52

it's I think it's the same

21:54

for for any of us. I mean,

21:56

what I like to do, though,

21:58

I like to. It's almost

22:01

like a baton handoff,

22:03

you know, in in situations

22:05

that oh man, don't

22:07

worry dog podcast here, don't

22:09

worry, I got, yeah. Are

22:11

you a lot more friendly

22:13

content? There

22:16

there he goes, but

22:18

we'll turn away from him.

22:21

Yeah, the rule there are rules

22:23

to building a solo like I

22:25

like to I like to like

22:27

I said the baton pass if

22:29

you're if you're taking if you

22:32

know a solo after somebody you

22:34

know without without going back to

22:36

verse and chorus or whatever with

22:38

the vocalist I like to I

22:40

like to play something they just

22:42

played As a handoff, you

22:44

you know? Yeah. Kind of

22:46

think of it as like a film

22:48

or like a story, you know, So

22:50

you take the handoff from somebody. and

22:52

you and you And you

22:54

prove that you know the melody. In

22:57

some way in the front, you

22:59

know, you you you fully

23:02

Access the melody and then

23:05

zeep boobah, you know for

23:07

a while And then I

23:09

always come back to some part of

23:11

the melody because I like to drag

23:13

the listener with me. Yeah, don't

23:15

want to run off from And

23:17

so and leave them in

23:19

in dark room. I

23:22

want to, I want to take them with

23:24

me. I want them to understand why I'm

23:26

doing the things that I'm doing. know, it

23:28

may be a counter melody. to

23:30

whatever to whatever playing

23:32

against. But You

23:35

know, we'll, we'll be passing through the same.

23:37

I will honor the changes, but. That

23:40

may be where it ends, you know,

23:42

until I get close to the end

23:45

of the solo and then I'll try

23:47

to hand it off again with some

23:49

part of the original melody. Yeah,

23:51

that's that's how I build a solo. I

23:54

take, I start off.

23:57

Lift off, you know, then

23:59

go around the - a few times and

24:01

then then come back a good

24:03

healthy dismount yeah soft landing yeah

24:05

well i love that because it

24:07

shows two things number one awareness

24:09

of the song and what context

24:11

you're playing it's not like oh

24:13

i'm just playing on some chord

24:15

changes and i get to do

24:17

my thing you're playing over a

24:19

song and then the other the

24:21

other part with the baton pass

24:24

is i'm engaging with the folks

24:26

that i'm on the stage with

24:28

or in the studio with i

24:30

am letting you know that i

24:32

respect you enough to listen to

24:34

what you are saying and for

24:36

me to try to continue on

24:38

like i value what you're doing

24:40

and i hope to continue what

24:42

you're doing and develop it into

24:44

something else and hopefully pass it

24:46

on to somebody else who i

24:48

will trust that they will continue

24:50

to develop it so there are

24:52

two conversations two conversations going on

24:54

at the same time there's a

24:56

one that you're having with the

24:58

musicians in the room that you're

25:01

playing with and the one that

25:03

you're having with the listener as

25:05

you're trying to to include them

25:07

i think we should include the

25:09

listener you know yes a lot

25:11

of times i know you've heard

25:13

it too i mean if i

25:15

somebody will just go off because

25:17

they can yeah and it really

25:19

doesn't have anything to do with

25:21

anything it's like come back come

25:23

back to us you know or

25:25

or while you're out there you

25:27

know pick up a loaf of

25:29

bread or something you know yeah

25:31

yeah you know i know you're

25:33

good but it's okay you don't

25:35

have to do that you know

25:38

i know i know i have

25:40

great friends that i'm like and

25:42

i mean we're all guilty of

25:44

it the only reason why you

25:46

are laughing is because we've also

25:48

yeah we're laughing because we do

25:50

it and some of our closest

25:52

friends do it and it's okay

25:54

to call ourselves on it and

25:56

our friends sometimes be like wow

25:58

you Uh, yeah, if I'm gonna

26:00

call my friend on it, I

26:02

better be willing to call myself

26:04

on it Exactly. and just go

26:06

okay I'm guilty What

26:09

do you want to do with me now?

26:11

Yeah, I'll do it again. I'll do

26:13

it again if it's the studio thing, but

26:15

that's why I love playing live so

26:17

much. One chance, man. You got one shot

26:19

at it. Yeah. And that's it. And

26:21

it goes by. It's not like, oh, we

26:23

can just lift this part from this

26:26

tank you know, yeah, no no

26:28

play it. in you

26:31

know, I've gone through stages

26:33

in my life and in

26:35

my in my career I've

26:37

gone. I Uh... I

26:39

might not get the solo

26:42

until the take or

26:44

any more. I I

26:46

swear I think my first my

26:48

first are better. now

26:51

because because of

26:53

the the experience in

26:55

the studio and and

26:57

so many songs and so

26:59

so much Information,

27:01

you know that that I

27:03

I I I can read

27:05

a song better the first

27:08

round. First the first take and

27:10

then later on. I start thinking

27:12

about it. can hear, then I hear me

27:14

thinking. Yeah, don't want to hear me

27:16

thinking. I want to hear it flow, you

27:18

know? Yeah, I want thing

27:20

to, I want it to like. unfortunately

27:23

in our times, like

27:25

a river. but Yeah,

27:28

I don't want it to be jerky. I

27:30

don't want it to be Messy

27:33

I don't want it to be You

27:36

You know, I don't want one idea

27:38

changed to a different idea too soon

27:40

with in a jerky method. I want

27:42

it to be smooth. I'm

27:44

curious. Setting wise

27:46

certain types of music like I what

27:48

I do I have such a There's

27:52

a lot of rhythmic density in the music

27:54

that I play and I have a 10

27:56

piece band. I love that. It's

27:58

a little by the way. Thank you. It's

28:00

a It's a driving rhythm it just

28:03

never lets go of you. It's

28:05

great, I it. It's like a

28:07

freight train, man. man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love

28:09

love notice there's certain rooms where it

28:11

translates better. And And we as

28:13

artists, we love to grow. we

28:15

love I'm trying to figure out, you know, as

28:17

I grow into playing into bigger places. I grow I'm

28:19

very, very in tune with my sound engineers

28:21

to make sure that it comes across and

28:23

that it's not all just a wash. that

28:25

it I recognize that there's certain rooms

28:27

that are more ideal. a wash. than others

28:30

for certain types of things of

28:32

that's okay. Sometimes you just

28:34

adapt. you But in what you

28:36

do, in it's also very rhythmically

28:38

dense dense it's naturally, maybe this

28:40

is redone, it's a then maybe this is

28:42

redone. It's a very acoustic. there's so

28:44

much that relies there's so much that relies

28:46

on the autonomy of, little I'm going to

28:48

play a little bit quieter here and then

28:50

play louder It's like It's like self a lot

28:53

of in a lot of sense. I'm

28:55

wondering I'm you, what is

28:57

the ideal situation? situation? room wise,

29:00

sound sound -wise. wise,

29:02

where you just feel like just feel

29:04

like it's the best representation of

29:06

what you and your band

29:08

does band does. I

29:10

think that, know, know, it

29:12

changes. from from band to

29:14

band, of course, you know, how much,

29:17

how much sound you're pumping out. But

29:19

yeah, out, the, yeah, the space that you're doing

29:21

it and you, you get feedback off

29:23

of it pretty quick. I mean, of it

29:25

pretty quick. I remember

29:27

one time one time playing

29:29

in town hall in in New

29:32

New York, Some somehow we took on

29:34

a took on a

29:36

feedback. and it suddenly

29:39

and it suddenly just took on a

29:41

life of its own. And that room

29:43

is round. is round. Yeah. So it was

29:45

was just like you could see

29:47

it going around the room, you

29:49

know, the engineer is standing back there standing back

29:51

there like this. He's got over what's

29:54

control over what's happening unless he

29:56

just pulls fader, you know, and know, and

29:58

just shuts it all down. Which

30:00

is which is

30:02

eventually happened. But yeah, so love

30:04

rooms, I love rooms

30:07

that are, and hate

30:09

rooms that are. hate rooms,

30:11

that you know, with

30:13

a, with a

30:15

nice you know, with a nice long

30:17

.6, you know, 2.6,

30:20

of know, but a

30:22

room. But it can be a

30:24

problem when you start, when you know,

30:26

your band might not have such

30:28

a good time in there not have such a

30:30

good are happening so fast that your things

30:32

start to double on you. that they

30:34

will start to double on that's what

30:36

you're talking about I think that's

30:39

what you're kind of have

30:41

to change your delays

30:43

of have to change your it down

30:45

a little bit down a so

30:47

it doesn't start so it itself.

30:49

eating itself. Yeah, that can

30:51

happen, but I love for

30:54

a lot of a lot of stuff

30:56

that I do, you know with

30:58

Alice and Kraus, you know, know that song,

31:00

like she says she's She's not happy

31:02

unless everybody leaves there leaves you

31:04

know. sad, you know, that's the

31:06

idea of our band is is

31:09

like to leave. beautiful, but you

31:11

need to it's all to, it's

31:13

you want to kill yourself you

31:15

know to but you know, it's over. But,

31:17

but Those rooms you know, you know,

31:19

there's such space in that music

31:21

that I can hit a note

31:23

and just hear it go forever.

31:25

Yeah, that's what I wanted it to

31:28

do was to go right on

31:30

into the next section, you know, without

31:32

know Without of those rooms are nice.

31:34

The rhyme the rhyming here

31:37

in Nashville in Nashville is a

31:39

best I ever played the

31:41

It's I've ever just such a

31:43

great just sound to it.

31:45

And, sound to it and yeah, and

31:47

also to me that that's a

31:49

childhood memory of hearing that

31:52

room on that room on the you

31:54

know. olfery. You heard that I've heard

31:56

that room for all my my life. the

31:58

the first time I went in

32:00

that room to play,

32:02

I, I heard, uh, John

32:04

Huey, the great steel player

32:06

for Conway Twitty. I heard

32:09

his steel bouncing off that.

32:11

old uh...

32:14

confederate the uh, the

32:16

upper, the upper, the

32:18

balcony. Yeah, that balcony

32:20

was just, it was

32:22

just crazy. So

32:24

you brought up playing with Allison Krause

32:27

and, You know, I remember

32:29

there's been different times where Certain

32:31

genres have kind of jumped out in

32:33

the zeitgeist. And

32:36

I remember as a teenager, there was one

32:38

year where it's like, If

32:40

you got something that was bluegrass

32:42

-ish. in your CD collection. It

32:44

was the, Oh Brother Where Art

32:46

thou. soundtrack. and if you if you

32:48

like that enough and wanted a second

32:50

album you'd by the Nickel Creek record

32:53

and that's exactly what happened for me.

32:55

was like I of discovered this whole

32:57

thing. I was like, oh, this is

32:59

super cool. You know, it's like a

33:01

teenager Oh, this is a

33:03

really cool - style of music, what

33:05

else is there? Oh, Nickel Creek,

33:07

and, you know, they're very different, but

33:09

also to somebody who's uninitiated. similar,

33:13

know, and of course

33:15

you could understand why,

33:17

But that whole era for that

33:19

style of music. Can you tell

33:21

me what that was like? before and

33:23

after. that movie and

33:25

that soundtrack Because it was

33:28

such a potent. thing

33:30

to get people uh,

33:32

awareness of the genre and

33:34

just in general. Violent

33:36

reset. Yeah. Yeah. mean it

33:38

was the it was that

33:41

it was 9 -11. Is

33:44

that what that was? That's when it

33:46

was. at the

33:48

The 2001, Uh

33:51

the uh we cut this we

33:53

cut that record we're in the we're

33:55

in the studio cutting that record. And

33:58

I, and I went out in

34:01

the hall with T -Bone and

34:03

I said, how many do you

34:05

think this is gonna sell? He

34:07

said, eight million. I went, what?

34:09

Wow. mean, he was close, you

34:11

know? I think it's like 11

34:13

now, but he was close. And

34:15

we were playing these songs that

34:17

people had been telling us for

34:19

years. You can't make any money

34:21

playing those songs. mean, those are

34:23

old, nobody wants to hear that.

34:26

And then all of a sudden

34:28

we come under attack and 9 -11

34:30

happens. And,

34:32

you know, we had cut

34:34

that record a year

34:36

before that because I remember

34:38

us doing a David

34:41

Letterman and doing the old

34:43

brother thing on the

34:45

David Letterman show. And then

34:47

leaving town, going across

34:50

to LaGuardia, I looked back

34:52

over my shoulder, over

34:54

the bridge and was just

34:56

thinking, how does the

34:59

world hold this up? know,

35:01

all of this stuff.

35:03

And that was the 7th

35:05

of September. Wow. Four

35:08

days later. And

35:10

we had cut that record

35:12

and, know, when that happened, the

35:14

whole country just went, oh

35:16

my God, you know, it's like,

35:18

this has never happened. We've

35:20

been attacked on our own. And

35:23

it was this terrible time.

35:25

And everybody was looking for honesty.

35:27

I mean, you found that

35:29

record, you found that record and

35:31

everyone was looking, going to

35:33

ground, looking for something real. Because

35:36

everything, everybody's mind was blown

35:38

at that point. was like, what's

35:40

real? What's real? You know,

35:42

everybody was scared of everything. didn't

35:44

know, how did that happen?

35:47

And there was this record of

35:49

total honesty laying out there.

35:51

You mean, and so many people

35:53

discovered that record. And it

35:55

was like, it was a record

35:57

with a vehicle that... was

36:00

a movie. You At first, the

36:02

record was way more popular

36:04

than the movie. And then

36:07

but I think that was because of

36:09

the music. And I think it

36:11

was honest and it was simple. was

36:13

real. It was done with acoustic

36:15

instruments around all of these. ribbon microphones,

36:17

We didn't, we we got

36:19

this close to a microphone.

36:22

They were, they were, you

36:24

walked into an area. of wherever

36:27

that microphone was. And

36:29

we were cutting to tape

36:32

and cutting really hot. John

36:34

cuts so hot. And, And

36:36

that's so that records out there and

36:38

everybody was buying the record and the

36:40

trickle down from that. Before

36:42

that bluegrass

36:45

music, you know, everything was going along

36:47

kind of like it was. I mean, it

36:49

was okay. And then

36:51

this happened, that record that record out.

36:53

So many people bought that record.

36:55

So many people got interested in the

36:57

trickle down of bluegrass music, you

36:59

know, to Nickel Creek. to

37:02

Allison Kraus, to,

37:04

to, to, uh, to.

37:06

Gillian Welch and Dave Rollins.

37:08

of all these people that were on that record.

37:10

people started to research their catalogs and

37:13

find Nickel Creek and and all,

37:15

you know, all these other things.

37:17

But that's that's how that's kind

37:19

of how music spreads. mean, in

37:21

so many bands, so many little

37:23

bands were doing corporate things, you

37:25

know, bluegrass bands doing little corporate

37:27

things. Everybody had work. All of

37:29

a sudden, boy, bluegrass was like,

37:31

get us a bluegrass band in

37:33

here, you know? It's like, they

37:36

don't require amps.

37:38

Yeah. But They're

37:42

not we we can

37:44

turn them down, but

37:46

you know, I think that

37:48

was one of the big shifts

37:50

for for kind of music. Also,

37:52

the first one was that the

37:54

nitty gritty dirt bands being broken

37:57

record, you know, yeah, yeah. pulled so

37:59

many people into this genre of music and

38:01

then You know, it's

38:03

been like tragic events in the

38:05

world, know, that was during

38:07

Vietnam That was right

38:09

in the middle of the Vietnam War when that

38:11

record came out. So everybody was

38:13

kind of like, we need something.

38:16

to make us feel better. And

38:18

music will always do that

38:20

for you. And, And these

38:22

were tragic events and these

38:24

records were. placed Yeah. Divinely.

38:28

Sure. Yeah, it

38:30

is interesting to see how Certain

38:32

genres will pop up. in

38:34

popularity, whether it be in pop

38:36

culture or just kind of a

38:39

general movement, you know, like there's

38:41

also just the evolution of

38:43

genre that happens within jazz,

38:45

that happens within pop

38:47

music. that happens within bluegrass

38:49

music, but I feel like. the

38:51

last several years. just due

38:53

to a lot of different factors. Bluegrass is

38:55

seen. just kind of

38:58

an you know, in in the same

39:00

way that jazz has kind of split

39:02

into different genres of staying more traditional small

39:04

clubs to the jazz fusion,

39:06

the R &B, the pop

39:08

versions of jazz. You know,

39:10

you have Stuff like with Green Sky,

39:12

Billy Strings, and so many other groups

39:14

that are bringing in. their

39:17

upbringing and their other

39:19

influences. into bluegrass music.

39:21

It's interesting to see kind

39:23

of different ways

39:25

that the genre can be

39:28

explored. and how these instruments can

39:30

be utilized and some

39:32

of this tradition can be

39:34

utilized. alongside other things It's

39:37

like my band, we'll

39:39

play something blazing song

39:41

and then we'll play

39:43

a weather report too.

39:46

Yeah. So

39:49

because I love, mean,

39:51

I I just a bluegrasser. I was

39:53

playing with J Crow and Tony Rice.

39:55

know mean, mean? I was in the

39:57

best bluegrass band you could possibly

39:59

be in. And a friend of mine

40:01

friend of mine took me living in

40:03

I was living in Lessington, Kentucky,

40:05

and he took me over to

40:07

his house. And his day I heard,

40:10

for the first time I heard

40:12

first time I heard Chick my mind was

40:14

just blown. my mind was just

40:16

blown. It so many possibilities

40:18

for me. as

40:20

a slide player. as a slide player.

40:22

And, You know, I ran

40:24

out of Dobro to listen to,

40:26

to learn from at a

40:29

certain point. I started listening

40:31

to saxophone players, to saxophone listening

40:33

to Clapton and Beck, to Jeff

40:35

Beck, know, getting my know, and

40:37

information there and transferring it,

40:39

know, trying it. it, you know,

40:41

trying it in people that I was playing

40:43

with, you know? playing with, you

40:45

know. And a A lot of it's the

40:47

the blues, you know. All All, all musics

40:49

are sort of based around the blues, aren't they,

40:51

at this point? they at I mean,

40:53

point? classical music maybe. classical

40:56

music, maybe. Sure. When When

40:58

in doubt, start start

41:00

playing the You'll find your way find

41:02

your way out, you'll find your

41:05

way out of whatever bag

41:07

you're caught in, but that's where I started That's

41:09

where I started getting a

41:11

lot of my information from

41:13

was other instruments, because. because my instrument

41:16

is such a

41:18

new instrument, instrument. Really, the

41:20

first Dobros, the Dopiero

41:22

building. were building, starting

41:24

in 1927. in 1927 in

41:27

1927. compared to every other instrument

41:29

that we use. that we

41:31

the new one it's the new

41:33

kid the new kid. And, you know, I'm the

41:35

guy that's trying to hurry it up to

41:37

you know. up and, you wear it in the

41:39

middle there the middle there know it's so new, know,

41:42

make it sound like it's been there

41:44

forever. know, make it sound like I like that,

41:46

that's cool. Mm. I like That's my

41:48

job. cool. That's my job, that

41:50

and and just like I said I said

41:52

before, being a chameleon, I love

41:54

playing all these different kinds of

41:57

music, so I'll so it somewhere. it

41:59

somewhere before I'll. you You know. a Take

42:01

a walk. Yeah. I think of all these

42:03

things in terms like think of all

42:05

these things in like that, you

42:07

know, it's sort of like, when

42:09

you're in a band, of like Sort

42:11

of like being in a crowd of people. you

42:14

know, You know, and, and all this,

42:16

this crap, but this crowd

42:18

knows when to when when

42:20

to be quiet, you know,

42:23

when to be quiet, you know. It's a,

42:25

organism. a living organism. Yeah,

42:27

a band. Yeah. Well, I I want

42:29

to get back to to the

42:31

world because I'm curious the the role

42:33

of a producer. it has a has a

42:35

traditional of of definition the modern day

42:37

the modern of version of a lot

42:40

of people, a lot of

42:42

my peers a they talk about

42:44

a producer. of assumes a lot of

42:46

assumes a lot of extra things that

42:48

go beyond what the traditional role

42:50

of a producer is. of And of

42:52

course that depends on the genre of

42:54

music. what type of artist

42:56

this producer is working with, all that

42:58

sort of stuff, know? It's not just. not

43:01

just making beats and mixing it

43:03

and throwing something on top of it

43:06

But that is a version of that

43:08

definition. of that There's a lot of

43:10

versions of what people bring to the

43:12

table as a producer. as a producer.

43:14

Famously, the Rick Rubin approach

43:17

or, you know, in the modern in the

43:19

you world, but you know, there's all

43:21

these different producers. producers. that bring a

43:23

thing to the table. thing to the

43:25

table. for course, it's

43:27

different for each genre. you But I'm

43:29

curious. I know you You know, like I know

43:31

you worked on Molly Tuttle's record as a producer you

43:33

you worked on a bunch of. of great,

43:36

great great that loved.

43:38

I'm wondering wondering what

43:40

you think. your with your experience

43:42

as a musician, session

43:44

player, artist. and as a and as

43:46

a producer. do you think What do you think the

43:48

X is is that you bring as a producer? And

43:51

what do you try to accomplish

43:53

with that role? that role? I

43:55

try to, try to go

43:57

into the session with, with, okay.

44:00

Let me let me just use

44:02

Molly's record as an example. Yeah.

44:04

Yeah. It was first first The

44:07

first record, her first record,

44:09

we used we used, we used I

44:11

mean, I brought in I brought

44:13

in Ron you know, a bunch of

44:15

people bunch of that I knew that I could

44:17

cover, it out of the park. out of

44:19

the park. we experimented too with

44:21

a lot of things like

44:23

this like this fiddle cloud that I. made of all

44:25

all these different fiddle players all

44:28

at the same time the some

44:30

part of the melody of and

44:32

it's just like a big

44:34

cloud, just big a big thing. this big

44:36

thought of that on the way

44:38

to the studio that day,

44:40

but it was, to the studio that day

44:42

I bring as a

44:44

producer I bring as a producer is I'm

44:46

I'm director. like if people

44:49

think of... of so if if

44:51

people think of producer, a

44:53

record producer, is like a

44:55

is director. director like a That's

44:57

the thing we do. we do. of We

44:59

sort of just drive the

45:01

bus. but let point have the wheel

45:03

have the wheel of give just

45:05

kind of give them a

45:07

direction. lot of time A lot

45:09

of time a just a referee. know, kind

45:12

You know, kind of up and things up

45:14

and moving things around. So we're

45:16

like, you know, know, if and things

45:18

things get too busy in

45:20

some section, know, you know, it out.

45:22

thin it out. But mainly the

45:24

second record we did the new

45:26

record the newest record is

45:28

her band her actual her band, her actual

45:30

And I thought, I said, I know,

45:32

it's going to take longer. know, it's going

45:35

to take you know, I don't

45:37

know you know, I you know, how

45:39

much studio savvy studio savvy your band

45:41

has, know, we don't want

45:43

to have to train everybody

45:45

want to the studio when they

45:47

come in the we didn't

45:49

mean they come in. And we mean

45:52

they, they, they, Kyle Tuttle and

45:54

Dom. they, they

45:56

both everybody brought a plus game,

45:58

you know. And and

46:00

we I the only thing I changed

46:02

was I got a different bass.

46:04

I didn't like the sound of the

46:06

bass So I got a different bass.

46:08

I went and borrowed Todd Phillips bass That

46:11

I didn't all the Tony Rice

46:14

recordings with. that bass was on

46:17

most of that stuff. and I loved

46:19

the sound of it and I thought it bass will

46:21

sound good in this band. Yeah, got

46:23

a base just luck that Todd

46:25

Phillips lives in Nashville now,

46:27

but There are plenty

46:29

of good bases, but that was the

46:31

one that I knew would fit into

46:33

this slot Yeah, so I listened

46:36

to the band and I and I

46:38

and I brought all down front.

46:40

and we us we did a

46:42

circle. and we sat there we,

46:44

we Sussed out all of the

46:46

songs arranged arranged them right there,

46:48

you know, together where we could

46:50

all see each other, not being

46:52

in a different room, you know,

46:54

and just going on the sound

46:56

of big, be about eye contact

46:58

was really important. Yeah, get

47:00

these things down, to figure

47:02

them out, and then send

47:04

then send to their individual

47:07

little airlock, you know? Yeah.

47:09

and and I I

47:11

still love, you know, I

47:13

a producer, I still love having

47:15

everybody in the room. you

47:17

know? and and

47:19

takes and and

47:22

edits. You know,

47:24

an then bluegrass are really

47:26

good about not setting a

47:28

click, you know, yeah Everybody

47:30

we don't like to play against the

47:32

click. it it we like to surge

47:34

and then come back and serve you

47:36

know, so do you. and you and not,

47:38

and when you got to click, you're playing,

47:40

it's just it's just, it's just. just deadens

47:43

you. It holds you in place

47:45

and it kind of takes

47:47

your ideas away. So idea,

47:49

fucker and uh... So

47:52

what we may try it with a click

47:54

a couple of times just to get comfortable

47:56

with that tempo. But then,

47:58

take that click away. and let people

48:00

play let let it and let it

48:03

come back to its comfortable

48:05

place. Yeah And those are kind

48:07

of things are think about as

48:09

a producer, but about as a and I'll

48:11

and I'll, know know, of try to, try to

48:13

make, you to try to build to build

48:15

something into the song. gives it

48:18

gives it legs. it a chance to go a

48:20

chance to go somewhere else for a

48:22

second. You know, it's just a a

48:24

cleanser within the song. song. Yeah, so it

48:26

renews renews your energy for

48:28

the song. know, we all build in these

48:31

little things, these little things,

48:33

but in the studio, a little

48:35

different a little different. really,

48:37

I look at it like I look at it

48:39

like painting do It's like, what do

48:42

we need over here in this

48:44

place? I need, I need need, I need I

48:46

need I need Bronwyn to just rise up

48:48

right here and just, you know... you

48:50

go nuts right here right here. Yeah. Because we

48:52

want to bring a lot of

48:54

energy to this place in the

48:56

song. song. Yeah, you you know, and

48:59

just moving it around like that. I mean, that.

49:01

I mean, That's what a producer does.

49:03

producer keeps his eye on the big

49:05

picture. on the big picture. Sure. Your

49:07

eye. Yeah. Because I've worked with

49:09

some, you know, great great

49:11

women producers, men it doesn't

49:13

matter. doesn't matter. Yeah. got

49:15

great ideas great ideas. And but

49:17

but I think the

49:19

producer is, is part

49:21

referee referee. And plus, you know, have a

49:24

good idea of what you know...

49:26

of energy you idea

49:28

of what... song. of

49:30

energy there's a whole lot

49:32

more for each particular song. what's

49:34

coming to I mean, there's a

49:36

whole lot more to it, but that's I mean, to

49:39

mind right now. Yeah, of course. I mean, were

49:41

casting In the first album, you

49:43

were casting director. and you

49:45

were entrusted with, all right, let's that

49:47

sure that we make a great record. and

49:50

all all those things that you talked about. in

49:52

this second this second album, I were all

49:54

were all happening. in the first in the

49:56

first album you were also playing role of

49:58

casting director and finding the... right to play.

50:01

and that wasn't wasn't necessarily

50:03

the case in the second it

50:05

it was like, hey you're a great

50:07

player let's a great player. Let's just try

50:09

a different instrument. Okay, cool. and

50:11

you know you know, the role role of

50:13

a producer does require so many different

50:15

things. like you're saying, it's like, I don't

50:17

know, it's so many other things. many

50:20

other Of course it is. like, is like

50:22

yeah I'm gonna chime in on the mix.

50:24

I'm gonna chime in on the way

50:26

that you're mic 'ing. miking the mandolin

50:28

because right now I'm just here way too

50:30

much of the much I'm not hearing enough

50:32

attack or whatever. So yes, a lot of

50:35

those things. yes a lot of we

50:37

forget. Oh we forget oh I'm the one

50:39

who has to call and schedule the

50:41

studio and tell everybody, and to

50:43

say, all right, everybody show up at

50:45

nine. to say all right beats at show up at

50:47

you know a lot of these

50:49

other things you know a lot of things you know,

50:51

we're gonna work on we're gonna work

50:53

on the we're gonna work on

50:56

this tune work on this tune before before

50:58

we start to cut the next tune,

51:00

tune, so don't have to come in. come in

51:02

at o 'clock you can be here

51:04

at noon at we're gonna we're focus

51:06

on this other this other for a

51:08

while for like that. things things. I

51:10

mean, and that's really hard. I

51:13

mean that's really hard. I mean, when people want

51:15

to go to go back and

51:17

fix something in and you're really not sure

51:19

that it needs to be done

51:21

done again. Yeah. Hey, if somebody if somebody

51:23

says they can do it better, I'm willing

51:25

to listen. Yeah, you know, because

51:28

I because I learned that a

51:30

long time ago with Allison who I

51:32

thought what I get any better. get

51:34

She said, She said I do that do

51:36

lot better. a And I didn't say,

51:38

and I that's great. That's great. I

51:40

said. That's great. I

51:42

said okay Let's have the other

51:44

got we have the other one. Yeah, always have

51:47

it, but if you can do

51:49

it better will always to hear

51:51

that, you know? can do it

51:53

better. I then she does. that

51:55

you know, you know And that

51:57

way way too. Molly is that

51:59

way. way. She's, if if she thinks she

52:01

thinks she can do it better.

52:03

I'm totally, I'm totally in,

52:06

I'm team. on her team. she can,

52:08

she can and she does.

52:10

How long great. how much time do

52:12

you how much time do

52:14

you normally take to make an album

52:16

these days? Cause I'm thinking like,

52:18

if you're talking about like, if we

52:20

were talking to Metallica a couple of

52:23

weeks ago. They're like, yeah, we

52:25

spent a month on this album or

52:27

like a year in the studio.

52:29

like, dude, what are you doing

52:31

for a year? on this year? year. What's going

52:33

on? Like, I got a- How did you

52:35

take in that year? you take in what

52:37

are you year? I know, hours are we

52:40

working? Oh, year, we working? Oh, be crazy. crazy.

52:42

Yeah, yeah, what were you doing? How, Are you

52:44

that bad? You know, know, are you not Can

52:46

you two put two notes

52:48

together? I don't know. No, that's the

52:50

thing is that they're dope dope. That's

52:52

why so confusing it's like

52:54

they're great players like they're great

52:57

taking so long? is

52:59

yeah, okay. We decided

53:01

to keep the second

53:03

take so long? Oh, yeah. Okay. later.

53:05

They're like, yeah, to

53:07

me that the two from

53:09

take. Yeah. Yeah. Can you remember

53:11

doing that mix number two from seven months

53:13

ago? Yeah. Yeah. I remember

53:16

doing 84. And. I couldn't tell

53:18

the difference. I mean, I mean,

53:20

I could not tell the

53:22

difference after number 35, you

53:24

know? you know, and yeah, we just We

53:26

just kept going. I said, that sounds,

53:28

said, that sounds sounds

53:30

good, that That sounds

53:33

good, you know? number 38 sounded

53:35

sounded great mean, I mean, you're

53:37

just so good. What, how do, this

53:39

is This is about you being happy,

53:41

not about any of the rest of

53:43

us, us, you know, you have to at some

53:45

point give that up. up. You know know,

53:47

no when no one else can

53:50

tell. Well, I heard say one time Mitchell

53:52

say one time, how many asked her

53:54

she would times she would overdub, how

53:56

many guitars would she overdub on

53:58

a song? she said, until like. can

54:00

hear the difference. the difference. And

54:02

then stop stop. And then

54:04

that sense to me. to

54:06

me. Yeah. So, so, you know, it's like

54:09

know, takes of an takes

54:11

of too intro. But That's

54:13

too many, not the Maybe it's not

54:15

the musicians at that point. Maybe

54:17

it's the song song or the. Yeah, no, it's

54:19

the no, it's the musician.

54:21

musician and musician and they're

54:24

tearing themselves apart going, going, you

54:26

the pull -off on the

54:28

third note and it's

54:30

like and be like I

54:32

it it 87 times but

54:35

you know sometimes it could

54:37

get a little Now,

54:39

you know, sometimes it can get a little

54:41

crazy, but. I mean you

54:43

have to mean, you have

54:45

to keep your eye on me. back to

54:47

you back to the, you

54:50

said how long, how many

54:52

hours? hours yeah like how do normally set

54:54

you Alright, let's take two weeks and make

54:56

the album. or let's take four days

54:58

in the studio in then I'll work

55:00

for a couple weeks to blah, blah,

55:02

blah. a couple weeks to

55:04

blah blah blah. I'll say on

55:06

the normal, on a, on a, on a,

55:08

a bluegrass record. on a a

55:10

band going in, I will take

55:12

five days to track. take

55:15

five We gonna try to get to a day.

55:17

Yep. You know, try to get two

55:19

songs a day a day. day. day in

55:21

in the studio, I'm I'm

55:23

lucky, I feel lucky to get

55:25

one song. song. That's great. We all

55:27

the stars lined up, line happy

55:29

and their instruments, they're happy

55:32

with the microphones. You know, we switch out

55:34

microphones and everything, like you say, too much,

55:36

you too dark, it sounds too dark, we

55:38

need to brighten it up. We

55:40

need to make it fit in this slot, you know.

55:42

dark, and still be your

55:44

instrument, still be you. brighten it up.

55:46

We need to make it I

55:48

would say. slot, you hours. still

55:51

be your instrument, still

55:53

be you. But it, I

55:55

would say 100 hours. Yeah.

55:57

Overdub, vocals. and

56:00

then mix. It would

56:02

take, I would mix the same way I would

56:04

try to get to a day But

56:06

it depends on my budget. If I've,

56:08

If I have a whole day to

56:10

work on a song. hallelujah,

56:14

I'll take it. And I'll,

56:16

and I'll, I'll work on it

56:18

that whole day and I'll find,

56:20

you know, until I think I've

56:23

Zap the energy out of it. You

56:25

know, by listening to it too many times and

56:27

going too deep. And making

56:29

everything too perfect where

56:32

this doesn't sound human anymore

56:34

or it doesn't It doesn't kick

56:36

like it did before. doesn't have the same.

56:38

It doesn't make me feel the same. Then

56:40

I, then I will, we'll, we'll

56:42

fix, we'll fix things.

56:45

But, and even my

56:47

favorite part of the whole

56:49

process is Really?

56:52

Because I can you can almost

56:54

remix a record now, you know,

56:56

you can bring the, you can

56:58

bring the the

57:00

middle forward. You can do

57:02

anything you want to with the sides.

57:04

I like to cut instruments, the brighter

57:07

instruments, I like to keep them on

57:09

the edges, on the outside edges. then

57:12

keep you know, the, the

57:14

bass and the middle the thing

57:16

and everything else jumping out

57:18

in between those two things. Yeah.

57:21

And now with, all the different

57:23

kind of mixes we can get,

57:25

you know? Just a

57:27

stereo mix is kind of

57:29

boring, I guess to some people but

57:31

not to me That's,

57:33

that's got be right first, you

57:36

know? Yeah. or you do any

57:38

other kind of mix, you better

57:40

have a good, just stereo mix. Absolutely.

57:43

That's, you know, a hours

57:45

used to be. what

57:47

I thought it would take to make

57:49

a record, but like a Molly

57:51

record or an Acus record, you know,

57:53

like with Allison, we've been working

57:55

on, we have two records. almost completely

57:57

finished. That. And

58:00

we're going to drop the first one

58:02

next March and then a year from then

58:04

we'll drop another and And

58:06

they are related, there are

58:08

songs on both records that Could

58:11

could have been all on one

58:13

record, but we decided to

58:15

split them So You want

58:17

to find out what the end of the story is, you got

58:20

to buy the second record. I that.

58:22

But it's not really it's

58:24

it's you know yeah going

58:26

too far into what the

58:28

song is yeah that was

58:30

but that was on purpose

58:32

and and Allison's really thought

58:34

these records out. She's had

58:36

time. you know, all the time out

58:38

there with Robert. Which was

58:40

something I told her she should do.

58:43

when we When we

58:45

reached, that band got all

58:47

came off the road in 2016.

58:52

In you know, drug ourselves

58:54

off the road, we'd been on

58:56

the road for know, 200

58:58

plus days a year since that

59:00

since 98. Yeah, we've

59:03

been we'd we'd the country

59:05

a couple of times. And And

59:07

the world and and we were ready

59:09

to we were ready to jump jump

59:11

out for a minute and regroup and

59:13

we all took off and did our

59:15

own thing, you know. and

59:17

stay busy and all

59:19

that kind of thing, but coming back

59:21

together is going to be really fun.

59:24

Yeah That That, that, that band sounds

59:26

as soon as that band, you get

59:28

to the second, when you get to

59:30

this, to the second, uh, Chorus

59:33

course, the second verse of the

59:35

song, the band is totally settled

59:37

in and sounds just like that

59:39

band, you know? Yeah, It's iconic.

59:41

bands around only only those

59:44

people can really Make

59:46

that sound. Yeah, but

59:48

it's funny, isn't it? Different

59:50

groups of people, like

59:52

we're talking about making records,

59:54

it's like it's casting.

59:56

It's all casting. and this

59:58

one's in Stone, I

1:00:00

suppose. I like that. I like that.

1:00:02

Well, that. this has been so that. fun to this has

1:00:05

been so much fun to talk to you. Tell

1:00:07

me a little bit about what you have coming up,

1:00:09

what you're excited about, what do people need to know

1:00:11

that you have going on right now? people

1:00:13

need to know that you have going going out

1:00:15

one more road trip with

1:00:17

my band, uh road for the

1:00:20

year and then for the and then

1:00:22

I'm gonna be working. December, I'm

1:00:24

some more with a some more

1:00:26

named Chris Jacobs. named Chris Jacobs.

1:00:28

a record on. He on he

1:00:30

of was the of was the

1:00:32

Baltimore the king of then decided.

1:00:34

rock He didn't need to be that

1:00:36

anymore. he didn't to be down here and we

1:00:38

made a record. came down here and

1:00:40

we love the record I love

1:00:42

really like what that cat

1:00:45

does. what with him. does so I'm be

1:00:47

working some with the him dirt band. be

1:00:49

working some with a nitty gritty

1:00:51

dirt them. on a recording

1:00:54

them and uh You know then then comes

1:00:56

transatlantic sessions That's another thing another

1:00:58

at all. It's get

1:01:00

music that just is on

1:01:02

fire. that It's so

1:01:04

cool. You know so cool. is so cool. cool.

1:01:06

When you you were talking about

1:01:08

listening to bluegrass bands and how

1:01:10

they how things, know, you know, how that's how

1:01:13

how how all came from them. mean,

1:01:15

Bluegrass music owes a lot to

1:01:17

Celtic music. music it. came

1:01:19

over here and informed. Bill

1:01:21

Monroe, know, know, yeah, with the tones

1:01:24

the the field and all

1:01:26

that kind of stuff kind of

1:01:28

music is the have

1:01:30

that coming up is, I

1:01:32

have that coming up and some crew, a

1:01:34

crew, an outlaw cruise next year. Nice. Oh,

1:01:37

are fun, but are fun,

1:01:39

but they're, That can be be fun. Yeah,

1:01:41

it could be a welding for

1:01:43

some people, but I love it.

1:01:45

Yeah. I got into this greatest

1:01:48

jam session with Jason Isbell one

1:01:50

night and real late in one

1:01:52

of those little clubs and we

1:01:54

were all just on nine you

1:01:57

know 12 It was so much

1:01:59

fun fun and And that is a good a

1:02:01

good part of those cruises. It's on

1:02:03

a festival on water, know? water, you

1:02:05

the people are cool. The people

1:02:07

don't come around you and go,

1:02:09

come around you know, and germ you you

1:02:12

know, and germ you and stay, you you don't

1:02:14

feel like you need to shed

1:02:16

anybody. need to shed hey man, put

1:02:18

up your show last night. just

1:02:20

going, hey man, love cool.

1:02:23

I love that. Yeah, they're

1:02:25

cool. It's very cool. I love

1:02:27

that. Yeah. You know, you're on

1:02:29

the water. That's that's

1:02:31

the only thing that worries me. that worries

1:02:33

me. Yeah. I did a cruise

1:02:36

I did a cruise one time, there wasn't

1:02:38

a cruise anymore because too many people

1:02:40

had fallen off the boat so they put

1:02:42

these people on land. off the

1:02:44

boat. So yeah, they put them

1:02:46

in the people the They It

1:02:48

was a, in the Dominican

1:02:51

at the, it was a, it was

1:02:53

a kid rock. Oh man I'm

1:02:55

so man, I'm so surprised

1:02:57

my said he said he said you want said

1:02:59

you want to do this.

1:03:01

I said no and and and I

1:03:03

was walking out the door and I said

1:03:06

out the How much? I said

1:03:08

how much so he went to the

1:03:10

demand to the hard he

1:03:12

went to the and I

1:03:14

don't know resort to

1:03:16

don't know if you want to of

1:03:18

this stuff at all, but all didn't

1:03:20

see see Bob, I I didn't see

1:03:23

anybody. I laid on the beach

1:03:25

and smoked cigars and we played

1:03:27

and I didn't see any band.

1:03:29

I saw nobody. I didn't see

1:03:31

any I just was not interested

1:03:33

but us. I just was not

1:03:36

interested. And the tequila cart got

1:03:38

mad at me

1:03:40

because I wouldn't drink.

1:03:43

I You know, You

1:03:45

know, it was like, yeah.

1:03:47

But it was a kid rock

1:03:49

cruise that they had to

1:03:51

put on land. to put on land.

1:03:54

It was was ridiculous. If I that

1:03:56

if I remember right? That

1:03:58

is is called the Chilling the Most cruise.

1:04:00

That's right. the most. Yes, I am. Come

1:04:02

on, man. I have some friends have been

1:04:04

on that cruise, not as

1:04:06

participants, but as, yeah, people

1:04:08

that were hired to play.

1:04:11

Well, but chilling the most people

1:04:13

that the most. Yeah, Well, I-

1:04:15

for me the most,

1:04:17

cruise. did not chill

1:04:19

the most. Yeah, not for me. Yeah,

1:04:21

well, thank you so this has been great

1:04:23

man. Yeah. Well, thank you so

1:04:25

much for being us. We got

1:04:27

to get together and play play. Yes,

1:04:30

yes, exactly. Yeah, I'm in. Yeah, you just went. All right, I'm

1:04:32

gonna be in Nashville a little

1:04:34

All right, I'm gonna be in Nashville a

1:04:36

little more the next few months. been renting a place there,

1:04:38

a friend of mine, one of my

1:04:40

close friends I went to a friend

1:04:42

of mine, one of my close friends I went to college

1:04:44

with has a house down there. a room there been

1:04:47

renting a room there for in

1:04:49

years. all the time. So, well, the time. that much.

1:04:51

I mean, I'm out there that much.

1:04:53

I mean, I'm surprised we haven't

1:04:55

met around here somewhere. But we're both

1:04:57

gone a lot. Yeah. a right,

1:04:59

game. Yeah. Well, we'll make we'll make it

1:05:01

happen. Okay. I enjoyed

1:05:04

it, thanks a lot. a

1:05:06

thank you so much. thank you

1:05:08

so much. There you have

1:05:10

it. Jerry What

1:05:12

an incredible musician. I On his take

1:05:15

on music and just musicianship and

1:05:17

what's needed out of a song a

1:05:19

song out of each player. Great here. I

1:05:21

mean, and that mean, and that comes

1:05:23

from experience too. Obviously playing on

1:05:25

so many records, that's that's

1:05:27

to teach you a lot. you a lot.

1:05:29

thanks for joining us today. us I

1:05:31

really appreciate you listening. If you've made

1:05:33

it this far, made it hopefully you'll

1:05:35

listen to other episodes. other if you

1:05:37

haven't listened to any other episodes, to

1:05:39

got episodes, I've got with folks in

1:05:42

the same genre as Jerry, I

1:05:44

got a Chris Thely, Sierra Hall, Billy Bela

1:05:46

Fleck, several others, and also,

1:05:48

if you're a guitar player,

1:05:50

bass player, producer, check

1:05:52

out the list of musicians

1:05:54

that I've interviewed because because

1:05:56

honestly, it's been really fun very

1:05:58

very fruitful for me learn

1:06:00

from these people people. it's been amazing.

1:06:02

So So for listening, we'll see

1:06:04

you next time. We'll see you next time. Peace!