0:02

Hi

0:05

everyone, I'm Anne Helen Peterson

0:08

and this is Work Appropriate.

0:19

Over the past year, we've dedicated episodes on

0:21

specific policies that make work hostile

0:23

to parents and on the nitty gritty details

0:26

of parental leave.

0:28

But we had a lot of questions hanging out in

0:30

our Excel spreadsheet, yes, that's where we keep

0:32

them, that were less about specific

0:35

policies and more about the

0:37

amorphous intersection of

0:39

being a parent and being a person

0:42

who works for pay.

0:43

We're talking about big philosophical

0:45

questions about ambition and passion

0:48

and even division of ambition with your

0:50

co-parent.

0:52

For a co-host, I wanted a parent who's

0:54

thought and written a lot about how our

0:56

current societal moment structures and

0:59

informs these

0:59

questions. Someone

1:02

with very in this moment, on the ground experience

1:05

and big picture perspective. I

1:08

knew exactly who to ask.

1:13

My name is Lydia Kiesling and I'm a writer

1:15

of freelance essays and novels.

1:19

Before we get to the hard questions, I want to hear about

1:21

your book, which is very important to

1:23

us here at Crooked Media. So tell us about

1:26

Mobility. Mobility comes out on

1:28

August 1st, that is alarmingly soon.

1:31

And it is a, I guess it's a coming

1:33

of age story. It follows one woman from

1:35

her teenage years to her

1:38

middle, late middle age. And

1:41

it's kind of a work novel. I mean, it's actually in many

1:44

ways a work novel. So I'm happy to

1:46

be here on this podcast that I really love

1:48

to talk about work and career

1:51

and how those things intersect

1:53

with kind of personality and philosophy

1:56

and politics. And so the novel

1:58

follows this woman.

1:59

bunny as she sort of apathetically

2:02

moves through a

2:04

collection of not that fulfilling jobs

2:06

in her early 20s and then ends

2:08

up somewhat accidentally working for

2:11

an oil and gas company and then has

2:14

a series of choices that she makes

2:16

and then ends up becoming a storyteller in

2:18

that industry at a moment

2:20

that is basically this moment

2:23

and yeah kind of explores why

2:25

someone might do that and how

2:28

certain

2:28

aspects of identity lead someone

2:31

to make certain choices about work

2:33

and ambition. I just started it

2:36

and it's about kind of like the compromises

2:38

we make in order to like survive

2:40

in grad school we'd call it late-stage

2:42

capitalism but we're not allowed to say that.

2:45

Like I just when I started being a journalist

2:47

my editor would be like you can't say late-stage capitalism

2:50

it's too alienating and I'm like the

2:52

way that the economy works now. Yeah I'm

2:55

interested to I know I've gotten some responses

2:57

and it's always interesting whether you

3:00

know sometimes people are like everyone

3:02

is making these choices and other people are like no

3:04

some people are decidedly not making those choices

3:07

so yeah I'm interested to see what kind of conversations

3:10

it starts about

3:10

how complicity works and

3:13

daily life and work and the levels

3:16

that exist types of complicity.

3:18

So this book is fiction but you also do

3:20

a lot of journalism and like nonfiction

3:23

writing and a lot of the

3:25

that I've read has been on parenting

3:27

and more specifically about care and like how

3:29

we figure out care how we fund care all that sort

3:31

of thing. What is your own experience

3:34

as a working parent?

3:35

Hmm I

3:37

should say that I'm incredibly lucky

3:39

because the work that I do feel you know is

3:41

my calling in some respects is

3:43

the work that I do to earn money.

3:46

I am able to do that because I am not

3:49

the primary economic engine of my

3:51

household. I am certainly like a

3:53

contributor and it is important that

3:55

I do contribute financially but

3:58

my husband is someone

4:00

who has the way I always talk about

4:02

it, which, it's like sounds

4:04

cute, but it's very literal. He's the W2

4:07

and I am the collection of 1099s. And

4:11

W2 income in America is ideally

4:14

income that you get health insurance

4:16

from and retirement benefits. And

4:18

then 1099 income is very sporadic.

4:21

And I can set

4:23

my own hours often, which is great, but

4:26

it does not come with things like

4:28

health insurance. And benefits. And

4:31

so we have a trade off that I think is very common

4:34

where

4:35

I'm the parent that's more flexible. I

4:38

am

4:38

able to do things like

4:41

work around the fact that our

4:44

public school day is age to 215. And

4:47

there are many days when there

4:50

is no school and

4:51

kids have doctor's appointments and then disappointments.

4:54

And then there are pandemics that come along

4:56

and completely derail

4:58

every fragile system that we

5:00

have. So I'm sort

5:02

of the designated flexible parent. I

5:05

will say my husband contributes

5:07

a lot and it's not a thing where it's

5:09

just like everything involving the kids is my

5:11

thing. And he doesn't do anything like that. But

5:14

he is the person who

5:16

there's more of an expectation. And this

5:18

was very obvious during the pandemic. And

5:20

as again, many, many households where

5:23

he was going to need to go into the room and close

5:25

the door in order to do

5:27

the work that got us the health insurance.

5:31

And so that meant I didn't have

5:33

a door that I could close and a lot

5:35

of things had to be shuffled around. But I'm very lucky

5:37

that I was able to shuffle them.

5:39

So I feel like this is a good segue into

5:41

our first question, which I'll give

5:43

a little backstory to this. So in

5:46

our last episode about parenting, it was actually very

5:49

early on in Work Appropriate. We

5:52

talked with Jessica Gross who writes about parenting

5:54

for the New York Times. And she and

5:56

I talked about some of the practical questions about

5:58

why workplaces just don't work. generally are

6:00

so hostile to parents.

6:03

And today, the questions that we're going to

6:05

grapple with are a little bit more philosophical.

6:07

And a lot of them are

6:10

not about like, how do I change this specific

6:12

policy at work? It's more like, how am I a person

6:15

in the world who parents and

6:17

also works for money? And

6:20

this question comes from Kelsey and our producer

6:22

Melody is going to read it.

6:24

I just listened to your episode with Jessica Gross.

6:26

And as a young mom found it really great.

6:29

One piece that's hard for me, in addition to all you

6:31

talked about on that episode, was the idea

6:33

of work being fulfilling or joyful.

6:36

I have a job that offers me good pay, a

6:38

short commute and flexibility for remote

6:40

work, which comes in handy for sick days

6:42

or school holidays. However,

6:44

the work is not what I consider fulfilling

6:47

and definitely doesn't bring joy. At

6:49

this stage in my life, I have given up on

6:51

having or pursuing a fulfilling career

6:53

to capitalize on the benefits of flexibility.

6:56

Before I had a kid, career goals

6:58

and fulfillment were a huge part of the equation.

7:01

And now it just can't be most

7:03

of my mom friends state the same dilemma. And

7:05

it has to be affecting all moms well being

7:07

overall, right? Are there any tips

7:10

I'm missing here or thoughts on this?

7:12

So is this thought process

7:14

at all familiar to you from your life or from

7:17

conversations with other parents? Absolutely.

7:20

I mean, I think that's always the question. I you know,

7:22

it's funny, I actually feel like

7:24

it was a conversation that I had more with

7:27

my peers when

7:29

we were in our sort of like pre

7:32

children,

7:33

young professional era, when

7:35

it felt like because I think if

7:37

especially if you come from like a particular

7:40

class and demographic, you are

7:43

encouraged to be very

7:45

ambitious sort of pursue some goal

7:47

that you work toward. It's hyper

7:49

individual. It's I mean, you know,

7:51

it's the old canard, you know, having it

7:53

all it's like you have to work hard and you but you also like should

7:55

love it. And you need to make lots of money.

7:58

So I think there was

7:59

that was definitely something that,

8:02

you know, when I was

8:03

like 25, 26, 27, and you start to notice some friends

8:07

who are having jobs where you're like, oh,

8:09

they're really like, they're gonna be something.

8:13

They're doing a job where they are going

8:16

to one day like, be my doctor, or,

8:18

you know, represent me in

8:21

my like auto collision,

8:23

you know, something that has

8:26

like an outcome that's very measurable. And

8:28

then people I will presume to

8:30

say maybe like you and I who had

8:32

maybe more

8:33

of like a humanities, and

8:36

I know you were in academia, which has its own like very

8:39

serious, like, and punishing

8:41

track and hierarchy that most people

8:43

fall out of because it is no longer tenable. But,

8:47

but I think if you're kind of like, I was an English

8:49

major, you know, I like books,

8:52

there, it's harder to find necessarily that

8:54

track. And so there is this moment when

8:57

if you if you still, you

8:59

know, were sort of raised to believe that you

9:01

needed to find something that was incredibly fulfilling

9:04

and very remunerative, that's

9:07

not where you find yourself necessarily.

9:10

And then if you then

9:12

have children, then that just throws

9:14

everything

9:15

into even more kind of disarray. So

9:17

I think the groundwork was already laid for me.

9:20

And then when I had my first child,

9:23

it became more like, oh, the logistics

9:25

of this now are impossible. Because

9:28

I had started so when I had my first kid,

9:31

I worked full time at a university,

9:33

then I was writing on the side. And

9:36

I was starting to get more

9:38

bylines that were, you know, meaningful and

9:40

also came with more money, although

9:42

not nearly enough money to actually like live on, but

9:44

something that made you feel like, Oh, maybe this

9:46

time, this whole time, I actually was working

9:49

toward a goal in my own way. But it was

9:51

just in this sort of like oblique way

9:53

on top of the jobs that I was working, which

9:56

is great.

9:57

However, then I had a child and

9:59

The time and energy that I could

10:02

spend, you know, previously working

10:05

all day and then coming home and being like, you know what,

10:07

I am going to pitch this essay. I am going to read seven

10:09

books that I'm not really getting paid for and try

10:11

to like come up with something that I can say about them.

10:14

That just didn't work anymore. And

10:17

then also just the logistics of commuting

10:20

and the childcare piece

10:22

and all of it, you know, it was just very logistically

10:24

difficult. And I, again, must say like my situation

10:27

was easier than many people's situation is,

10:29

but still it's very hard. Over

10:31

time, like my husband and I had to be like,

10:33

you don't want to do this.

10:34

You want to have

10:37

this kid and then another kid.

10:39

You want to write like, you know,

10:42

how do we make those things happen? We

10:44

had to really like reorganize our lives

10:46

in order to do that. What

10:49

strikes me is that I think a lot of

10:51

people

10:51

find themselves, as you were

10:53

saying, they realize like, oh,

10:56

maybe I'm never going to make a lot of money in this job.

10:58

And oftentimes they're in the humanities or maybe

11:00

in the nonprofit track, right? Or

11:03

something that just has like a ceiling. And

11:05

then it's easier to quit

11:07

that job

11:08

when and if you have kids. And the other

11:10

thing too about those jobs, often nonprofit

11:13

jobs are some of the few

11:15

jobs, I think, or at least in my

11:17

experience, that allow people to go

11:20

down in their hours, allow you to

11:22

be at 60 or 70%, which

11:25

is really, really great

11:26

for people who, are

11:29

also trying to juggle care responsibilities.

11:31

But also they have a ceiling, like there's no

11:33

place for you to go, right? Like you're going to be

11:36

at the same level for 25 years and

11:38

maybe get a cost of living increase.

11:41

That's part of the feeling of like, I don't really

11:43

love this job, but it's the job that I can have

11:45

because it's flexible. And there's

11:48

just so few other

11:50

options for part-time work. Other

11:52

countries have figured out how

11:55

to have part-time work available, right? Like

11:57

they just, they, there are other ways and part of it

11:59

is not having.

11:59

a healthcare peg to work. But

12:02

in the United States, there are just so few. It's either

12:04

like you said, you are a smattering of 1099s

12:07

that does not collect into a full-time

12:09

income or you're a W2. And

12:11

so how do you find a W2 that offers

12:14

a modicum of flexibility? Oftentimes

12:16

that means making real sacrifices

12:18

in terms of,

12:19

do I actually like this job? Do I like what

12:21

I'm doing? Do I agree with what I'm doing?

12:24

Am I so just bored out

12:26

of my mind and this is just like what

12:28

I have to do in order to get a paycheck?

12:30

One thing that I thought when I heard the question

12:32

is like, I would love to have like

12:34

a little more. I always want, I'm like, I

12:36

want the full picture. My main question is sort

12:40

of, I guess about time because what

12:43

the writer described, I'm like, you

12:45

know what, that actually sounds great. And actually

12:47

the older I get, the more I'm talking

12:49

to other people who are just like, I just want a

12:51

job that doesn't take over life and

12:54

that does allow for the

12:56

flexibility. And that isn't something I

12:58

need to fret over and stew over, you

13:00

know, late into the night. But I

13:03

also want to acknowledge that it is

13:06

difficult to do something for a long period of time that

13:08

stops being interesting to you. I'm

13:10

worried to sound preachy, but the

13:12

time part, I'm interested how much like available

13:15

sort of extra time she has. And I know obviously

13:17

that can be very limited with kids, but

13:20

one thing that happened for me in

13:22

the pandemic, because my work did become

13:24

like

13:25

much less possible for a while.

13:28

Because I was, you know, the full time caregiver,

13:30

I had my two kids, I had another

13:33

kid for much of a year

13:35

because I was like administering the online

13:37

kindergarten for my older

13:39

child and another kid. And

13:42

then trying to find stuff to do with them in the afternoon.

13:44

And I was completely miserable because that's not

13:47

what I enjoy doing, like administering

13:49

online kindergarten. And just like,

13:52

you know, I'm not like a person who naturally is like,

13:55

I just came up with like 25 really creative

13:57

ideas. I'm

13:58

very playful. Like that's not me.

13:59

at all. So I was very unhappy. However,

14:02

it was so clear during the pandemic

14:04

that there was like work that could

14:06

be done, like work that was

14:08

necessary in my community. And I think

14:12

a lot of people in that time were kind of felt

14:14

a little bit more

14:16

bold to be like, oh, maybe I can

14:18

actually like get involved in some

14:21

ways. And so

14:23

I sort of chose to see like the

14:26

benefit of my flexibility and of my

14:28

like fallow period and work is that it did

14:30

allow me to get involved in a bunch of stuff that

14:33

wasn't paid, but felt really, really

14:35

validating and rewarding. So one

14:38

thing I was able to volunteer for, um,

14:40

Multnomah County's universal preschool

14:43

ballot measure, which was largely

14:45

volunteers. And that

14:47

was, you

14:48

know, time consuming, but incredibly

14:50

rewarding and obvious. And if it's volunteer

14:52

stuff, people understand that you can't be there

14:55

all the time. And sometimes your kids are going to, you

14:57

know, be part of it or that you're going

14:59

to have obligations. Um, so

15:01

I would

15:02

urge the question asker

15:05

to,

15:06

and again, you know, with the acknowledgement that time

15:08

is one of the big things, but to

15:11

maybe see if there are ways to look for

15:13

meaning that are outside of the job, because that

15:15

job actually sounds pretty great for where you are

15:17

right now in this season of life. Um,

15:19

but that shouldn't mean that you can't find

15:21

fulfillment. So whether that's like

15:24

looking in your community for where

15:26

there are opportunities for volunteers, what are the needs,

15:29

like who's doing stuff that you think

15:31

is admirable or exciting. And then

15:33

if that, you know, if you're not like a joiner in that way,

15:36

it's also like, I

15:37

was thinking about how so many of

15:40

the most like beautiful, like decorative arts

15:42

we have, you know, from human history were

15:44

created by people who probably weren't getting paid for

15:47

them. And we're like doing that because that's like what they did

15:49

at home or, you know,

15:51

the meals that people prepared or the gardens

15:53

that people grew. And

15:55

there's a reason that those are very like gendered activities,

15:58

like traditionally, but

15:59

I think that's evidence of how

16:02

people find passion

16:03

in life that isn't necessarily from the

16:06

work that they're doing. There's often

16:08

this dichotomy of either you find all

16:11

of your joy and fulfillment in your job or

16:13

you find it in parenting and you're like,

16:15

what if I, those things

16:17

are okay. And then, but

16:19

what about a third thing? Can we do a

16:21

third thing? Yeah, please,

16:24

no. And I

16:26

love too that you acknowledge that like coming

16:28

up with new genius ideas to

16:30

entertain kids, like that that's not

16:33

your passion. No,

16:35

my kids watched the iPad,

16:36

like the whole pandemic, like so

16:38

much iPad and I tried, we did slime,

16:40

like

16:41

I made a lot of slime in the beginning. And then

16:43

now I'm just like, I never want to see fucking Elmer's

16:46

blue again. Like I have two

16:48

iPads in my house. I'm always checking

16:50

to make sure they have enough battery. You know, I'm

16:52

like,

16:53

yes, I'm not a natural like

16:57

inspirer of children. Right. And like,

16:59

you don't have to be like, oh, I'm unfulfilled

17:02

in my job. I'm not coming up with

17:04

inspired children's activities. Like where

17:06

was everything's going wrong. And

17:08

you know, we talk about this so often on this podcast

17:11

that I feel like it should be our theme song, but

17:13

just the idea that like there are other places

17:15

to find that passion and fulfillment and it can

17:17

be a third thing. And so

17:20

hard to carve that out because of,

17:23

oh, you're tethered to the home in some way, whether

17:26

it's because of naps, because of just

17:29

supervision, because of transportation, whatever.

17:32

But there are so many different things that could

17:34

like, you know, people to write things like

17:37

bullet journaling or scrapbooking.

17:39

And I'm like, where do you think all this creative energy

17:42

is going? Like it goes somewhere.

17:45

And as long as you like doing it, that is awesome.

17:48

That's why people start and participate

17:50

in extremely rabid ways in like

17:52

Facebook groups. Yes.

17:55

Because that is a way that people like expend energy

17:58

and make connections. Yeah. I mean,

17:59

I think everybody is struggling with

18:02

that. Because also, a lot of times people will

18:04

find themselves in caregiving that I

18:06

don't even think there is a cultural

18:08

expectation that, oh, you should love every minute of this.

18:11

Especially when people are in sandwich generation

18:13

situations where they're caring for parents or

18:18

they have a kid who's going through a really tough time.

18:20

And again, the time part and the feeling tethered

18:24

might not so easy to just be like, okay, well, I'm just

18:26

going to go and start a committee

18:28

and do. There are people

18:31

who are already doing things where you live and

18:33

you can check them out and see

18:35

where there's

18:36

a place where you might fit in even for like

18:38

half an hour a week. I

18:40

do think there is a sort of disease tendency

18:42

to be like, and who knows, maybe that thing

18:45

could then turn into your new job. No,

18:47

no. Not everything

18:50

has to be like that. But it might show you,

18:52

oh, my values about what I want to spend

18:54

the day doing are a little bit different than I thought.

18:57

If I do decide I want to make a change in my

18:59

job, maybe it's more in this direction

19:02

and less in this direction. I think it can

19:04

sort of tell you about yourself in ways that

19:06

are really can be cool and exciting

19:10

just to know that as you get older, you're not

19:12

like fixed with whatever set of interests you

19:14

decided you had when you were 18 years old. They

19:17

change all the time. Yeah. And I think

19:19

just for this question, asker, I want to affirm

19:23

that feeling

19:25

like you miss your ambition or are jealous

19:27

of other people's ambition or like their fulfillment

19:29

in their jobs. Like that's totally normal. I

19:31

was just watching this episode of Platonic,

19:34

which is Rose Byrne and

19:36

Seth Rogan's show on Apple. And

19:40

she

19:41

stopped being a lawyer, like a high powered lawyer,

19:44

and then goes to the partner's retreat at her

19:46

husband's firm. And it's like all these other lawyers

19:48

from their clerking class and like, including

19:51

like another mom who had four kids who didn't stop

19:53

being a lawyer. And like she says,

19:55

she's like, I loved making the decision

19:57

that I made, but also I feel

19:59

And you can hold those feelings together.

20:02

Just acknowledging that it's hard and that it's normal

20:05

to feel like, oh, I thought that this was who

20:07

I was, but I found

20:09

myself in a different situation. I also think

20:11

like

20:12

this job might be right for this season.

20:14

I think you said that, right? But that doesn't

20:17

mean that it's the job you're always gonna have. Yeah,

20:19

and it's just helpful to be like, nothing that

20:22

you're doing right now has to be the way that it's gonna be

20:24

forever. And your kids are also gonna

20:26

get older and the dynamics

20:28

will just change. Yeah, and you don't know

20:30

what that's gonna look like yet. Treading

20:33

water in a job that's sustainable for whatever

20:35

reason. Like it'd be one thing if they were like, I

20:37

have to have the flex, but this is

20:39

a super toxic job that like is

20:41

avoiding me in

20:42

different ways. Different situation, right? Yeah,

20:45

no. But you can coast on this one for a little bit.

20:52

Hey, it's Lara Coates, host of the Lara

20:55

Coates Show on SiriusXM CODIS,

20:57

where we go beyond the soundbite. We break

20:59

down everything, politics and the law

21:01

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21:03

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21:06

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21:08

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21:10

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21:14

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21:16

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21:25

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21:27

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21:29

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21:31

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21:34

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21:36

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21:38

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21:41

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21:59

So.

21:59

So our next question is basically

22:02

the same question, but the opposite worry.

22:05

This is Allie. I currently

22:07

have a passion job. The

22:09

work aligns pretty well with my values

22:12

and my coworkers are passionate about

22:14

their work, but it comes with unhealthy

22:16

boundaries and no maternity leave benefits.

22:19

I want to leave so that I can start a family,

22:22

but I'm afraid I'll fall out the frying

22:24

pan and into the fire. The jobs

22:26

I know of that have any kind of maternity

22:29

leave benefits are mostly government

22:31

jobs that everyone hates working.

22:34

Is it too much to ask that I get

22:36

to enjoy

22:36

my work and also get the financial

22:39

support that I need? All right. So

22:41

in some ways Allie is living the life that Kelsey was imagining,

22:44

but Allie says she can either have

22:46

passion job and no benefits or benefits

22:49

with no passion. So

22:51

okay, this is sample size of two people.

22:53

Do you think that that is a fair representation

22:57

of the job market? So

22:59

again, I want to know the full picture.

23:02

I want to know the industry because maybe it

23:04

is true that this writer is very

23:06

aware

23:06

of all the jobs

23:09

and is like, for what I know how to do and am qualified

23:11

for, the only job I can get is a government

23:13

job that I would dislike. To me, that feels like

23:15

kind of a bold statement just

23:18

because I think maybe see what's out there. I'm

23:21

curious about what the industry is like the passion

23:23

industry because

23:24

is there an opportunity for

23:26

some kind of self advocacy around

23:29

like, can this be flexible? I

23:31

mean, I'm assuming if they've written in, then maybe they

23:33

feel like they've exhausted their options for

23:35

finding some sort of flexibility in that work. But

23:38

I do think right now it's painted

23:41

as like a pretty black and white either

23:43

or, and I don't think that's necessarily

23:46

like always a helpful way to look at it just because you also

23:48

don't know how

23:49

the time scale for having a family too.

23:53

You have to, first of all, to get the shitty

23:56

benefits that most places

23:58

in America even offer.

23:59

You have to work there for a certain amount of time. So,

24:02

you know, that's like a lot of engineering to

24:04

do ahead of

24:05

doing something that, you know, depending on whether

24:08

they would be carrying the baby or someone

24:10

else, or if they're thinking about like adoption,

24:12

either way, like every scenario requires a ton

24:14

of time and like a lot of chance. And

24:17

so I'm just sort of skeptical that it

24:19

can be like fully engineered. Yeah.

24:21

So maybe if you love what you do, then trying

24:24

to like see what the possibilities

24:26

are there, I don't know. It's

24:28

interesting because I, as someone who doesn't

24:31

have kids,

24:32

and part of the reason I don't have kids is because of

24:34

watching like the hostility towards parents

24:37

doing what I do. Um, and

24:41

I think that there is often this messaging

24:44

in the United States of like, there's never a perfect

24:46

time. So if you can get pregnant,

24:48

get pregnant and figure it out later, right? Like

24:50

you'll figure it out. And then you

24:53

have the kid and you're like,

24:54

what the fuck? Like I

24:57

didn't realize it was, and we're not even just talking

24:59

about like maternity leave, right?

25:01

It's like, oh, everything. Like

25:04

this is really, really, really, really unspeakably

25:07

hard. And it's

25:09

almost like you're not led into

25:11

the like initiation temple. Like you

25:13

don't, you hear rumors, but it's not until you're

25:16

like in through the front door that you're like, Oh

25:18

my God, like there's a reason they didn't tell

25:20

us about this, the advice can't just

25:23

be, and you're not giving this advice to be clear, but

25:25

like the advice can't be like, it'll be okay.

25:27

Just do it. People figure things out. Um,

25:30

but I also think in a lot of

25:33

companies,

25:34

there is room to change

25:36

maternity benefits, to advocate for

25:38

maternity benefits. You don't have to

25:40

have a kid to try to change

25:42

things.

25:43

When I worked at BuzzFeed, like they

25:46

had to write the maternity benefits when the first

25:48

people got pregnant. They're like, Oh crap, we

25:50

got to figure this out. Right? So

25:52

sometimes that's the case. And I think

25:55

that she can also look as

25:57

you said, like at other jobs. I do know.

26:00

you know, we've been talking about nonprofits a lot,

26:02

there are a lot of nonprofits because they can't pay you

26:04

better, they offer a lot better

26:06

benefits.

26:07

So if that's something that is possible, like

26:10

maybe I can take a slight pay cut, but

26:12

then I can have a much more extended leave

26:15

and then also have more

26:18

flexibility around caregiving

26:20

and that sort of thing and still

26:22

get health insurance, like maybe that's a possibility

26:24

and it could be, you know, nonprofit jobs

26:26

are oftentimes passion jobs too. So

26:29

yeah, I think that there are other, there are half ways.

26:32

Yeah, the struggle is real. I will second

26:35

what you said, it is frustrating when people are just like, it'll

26:38

be fine. I'm like, that's a grand parental conspiracy

26:40

to make people have kids that they are then

26:42

not going to babysit. If

26:46

you're not gonna babysit, if you're not gonna come and do preschool

26:49

for my kids, like you have kids say

26:51

and whether, whether and how many kids I have.

26:54

But okay, yeah, so our advice here is that there

26:56

are in-betweens.

26:58

Sometimes people write in and say like,

27:00

I don't know what jobs are out there. So

27:03

it might be worth asking around to

27:05

people that you know who are parents, like

27:08

what jobs are there in my field

27:10

that are more amenable

27:13

to sustainable work

27:15

parenting situations? Yeah.

27:18

Okay, our next question comes from Jolene, who's

27:20

trying to figure out how to make career goals and

27:22

family goals happen at the same time.

27:25

I'm a journalist and a podcast producer and

27:27

this year I was a finalist for a really

27:29

cool fellowship, which would have been an amazing

27:32

year-long opportunity to study subjects I

27:34

love. I know I would get a lot out of

27:36

it, but I'm also watching layoff

27:39

after layoff in this industry and I'm worried

27:42

because my job is stable right now as

27:44

far as I know, but I have been

27:46

feeling ready for something new for a while.

27:49

I want to grow and leap into the unknown,

27:52

but I'm finding that I'm less tolerant of the unknown

27:54

than the last time I was between jobs, which was

27:56

in my twenties.

27:58

I am more financially stable now. and my husband

28:00

and I are considering starting a family in

28:02

the next couple of years, meaning I

28:04

would be pregnant. He's got good income and

28:07

in some ways being between jobs might be

28:09

amazing because it's more time with the baby.

28:11

But I am concerned about how

28:13

a lack of certainty in that period of life might

28:15

feel, especially because being

28:18

only a wife and mother isn't really my dream.

28:20

I don't know if I'll get the fellowship.

28:23

So weighing these different risks

28:25

and uncertainties and opportunities, what

28:27

would you suggest that I consider? All

28:29

right. So if she takes the fellowship,

28:31

it would be leaving her job and then

28:34

that job wouldn't be waiting for her when she gets

28:36

back because they would fill the job. And environmental

28:39

journalism is 100% necessary

28:42

and also

28:44

not always the easiest job to

28:46

find if you're looking for another one.

28:49

So if she has a stable job, she's feeling this like,

28:53

what if I will never find another job again? And this

28:56

person, she's in her 30s, so she's millennial.

28:58

So I feel her.

29:00

You just always are like, if I don't

29:02

have a job, am I ever going to find a job again?

29:04

Ever. That fear just never

29:07

goes away. But the

29:09

fact that she does have a

29:10

stable income

29:13

in the form of her husband, I think changes some

29:15

of the calculus. Oh, absolutely.

29:18

I

29:18

think it's smart to be thinking about

29:21

the lay of the land of your current profession.

29:24

But

29:25

to me, doing the fellowship,

29:26

there's no downside because it seems

29:28

like she's not necessarily that happy in

29:30

her current job anyway. She's sort of wondering

29:33

if there's a future for her both

29:36

in that job and in the profession at large.

29:38

So in that case, doing the fellowship

29:41

is... It's

29:42

like only upside, right? Yeah,

29:44

it's only upside. She can use pivot to something

29:47

else because I feel like you are a great example

29:49

of someone who was doing one thing and then

29:51

you used the training and skills

29:55

from

29:55

that thing to then do something else. And I don't

29:57

think it ever hurts in any job

29:59

story.

29:59

to be like, I won this prestigious

30:02

fellowship, even if it's in like a slightly

30:04

different field, it shows that you

30:07

were like a sought after candidate.

30:10

And then I think also like, again, sort of

30:12

related to the previous question, it's

30:14

smart to be thinking about how your family plan

30:16

will fit into all of this. But again, there's

30:18

a lot that you can't control about

30:21

that scenario. And so, being

30:24

like, well, what if I'm pregnant during

30:26

that? It's yes, like good to

30:28

consider, but also don't assume that

30:30

you will be because that might

30:32

not be how things transpire. And

30:34

then it would be a shame to have been like, well, I can't

30:36

do anything because

30:37

like I could be pregnant. And it's like

30:39

this,

30:39

that you could, but

30:42

also who knows? Yep. Well,

30:44

the other thing about a fellowship is

30:46

that you get to do like

30:48

a really different type of work, right? Fellowship

30:50

is like, what if I just

30:53

got to like think things and like produce

30:55

at a much slower pace and like, it's

30:58

just, it's rejuvenating, I think for a lot

31:01

of people. And so that can be this

31:03

sort of thing that really allows you to

31:06

both take like a deep breath in your career

31:08

and then come back at the work that

31:10

you do in a different fashion. And

31:13

so I think thinking of it as that instead

31:15

of this

31:17

potential liability. And I understand

31:19

why she's thinking of it this way, but at

31:21

the same time, like it's awesome. If

31:23

you get it, you should totally take it.

31:26

Yes, we agree. We take

31:29

the fellowship and I hope that she got

31:31

it. Like she might've written this a little bit ago. And

31:33

so like, hopefully she got it, but also if she

31:35

didn't get it and another opportunity that similar

31:38

comes up, also take

31:39

that opportunity. Yes, absolutely.

31:47

Hey, it's Laura Coates, host of the

31:49

Laura Coates show on Sirius XM

31:52

POTUS. When we go beyond the soundbite, we

31:54

break down everything, politics and the law

31:56

and pop culture. It's what you care most

31:59

about. a code show at home

32:01

or anywhere you are. No car

32:03

required. Download the SiriusXM

32:06

app for over 425 channels

32:09

of ad-free music, sports, entertainment,

32:11

and more. Subscribe now and get three

32:14

months free. All for details. Apply.

32:18

Looking for a more convenient and cleaner way

32:20

to do laundry? 7th Generation Easy

32:22

Dose Free and Clear Concentrated Laundry Detergent

32:25

makes it simple and it's available at your local

32:27

Target. 7th Generation Easy Dose

32:29

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32:32

every time for 66 loads of laundry

32:34

on one bottle. Get a bio-based deep

32:36

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32:39

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32:50

What would happen if you were wrongfully arrested

32:52

simply because you wanted to bring avocados

32:54

to your motherland? That's the story of Jason

32:57

Rezaian, an American-Iranian journalist

32:59

who was held hostage for 544 days in an Iranian prison and

33:04

accused of being an American spy. On

33:07

Crooked's 544 Days, Jason recounts

33:09

his experience injecting humor into an unimaginable

33:12

situation. Want

33:13

to hear the full story? Listen to 544 Days

33:17

for free on Spotify or wherever

33:19

you get your podcasts.

33:26

So for our last question, we're going to venture

33:28

into some relationship advice. It's

33:31

still work adjacent though. This is from Mel

33:33

and our colleague Julia is going to read it.

33:36

What is some advice on how to navigate work

33:38

slash career as it affects the household?

33:40

What I mean is what if one partner

33:43

wants more, like more travel, more

33:45

kids, or even to move somewhere else,

33:48

and the other partner is perfectly content

33:50

in a job that pays just enough? How can

33:52

partners best navigate supporting each other's

33:54

individual goals and dreams and

33:57

also create and work towards combined goals

33:59

and dreams? For example, Partner

34:01

A has a job she likes and good benefits.

34:04

She wants another child but recognizes they

34:06

can't currently afford it with one kid in

34:09

daycare and on their current dual income.

34:11

Partner B also wants kids, is

34:13

neutral about his job, has terrible

34:15

benefits, and hasn't had a raise in 10 years.

34:19

He isn't motivated to find a better paying job

34:21

because he has non-paying hobbies he enjoys.

34:24

In either case, resentment could easily result.

34:27

Resentment for Partner A if she can't have children

34:29

and fulfill that dream, or resentment

34:31

for Partner B who may feel forced to find

34:33

a job he doesn't like and give up some of his

34:36

hobbies.

34:37

All right. I love this question. It's so specific

34:39

and it's so clear that the question writer is

34:42

Partner A. Also,

34:44

the first question writer needs to

34:47

take some inspiration from Partner

34:49

B because Partner B

34:51

is having a job that is just okay,

34:54

but having hobbies that are apparently so

34:56

great that they have prevented him from wanting

34:58

to do anything else in life. All

35:01

right. So,

35:05

like I said, I think that the question writer is pretty

35:07

clearly

35:07

Partner A, so let's talk about her first.

35:10

As I'm reading it, I think she just really

35:12

wants to have another kid. Doesn't that seem

35:15

to be the case? And knows

35:17

that it's financially difficult

35:20

to have that second kid

35:22

unless Partner B

35:24

changes the scenario. Yes.

35:28

And normally, I would say, I feel

35:30

like the really critical part of the question

35:32

and the scenario as it was laid out was when

35:34

it says, Partner B also wants

35:37

kids. So that

35:39

part feels very important to me. I think if Partner B

35:41

was like, I don't, then

35:43

that

35:44

is like a deeper rift in something that like both

35:46

of them really need to be respected there.

35:49

And I don't know how you fix that. But if

35:51

he also wants that, then

35:54

I think it's reasonable for Partner A to

35:56

be like,

35:57

well, I'm really thinking about how we would do this.

35:59

Yep. And right now we can't. And

36:02

so let's like, let's sit down and have a

36:04

non-rankerous sharing of feelings

36:08

and goals. Right.

36:10

Like, because I think there is a scenario

36:12

where maybe partner B is

36:15

apathetic about having

36:17

another kid is like, Oh, it'd be cool if

36:19

we did. I'm

36:20

fine if we don't. And so that it's

36:22

not enough of a desire to motivate

36:25

them to do the frankly, very

36:27

difficult probably of not only finding

36:29

a new job, but

36:31

also giving up some of the

36:33

fulfilling hobbies, which are

36:35

central to like, I mean, good

36:38

for partner B, like got the hobbies,

36:40

got a mediocre job, like just

36:43

is happy with stuff.

36:45

Yeah. But I do think I like that the question

36:47

asker also brings up like, things

36:50

are fine, but also this is you're

36:52

asking for resentment if we don't work through this

36:55

now. Yeah.

36:56

It's a good point that like, maybe it's, maybe

36:58

it's not that partner B has like a burning wish for

37:00

other kids, but that it is sort of this like, yeah,

37:03

that could be good. I do think that, you

37:05

know, this is like essentializing, but I've

37:08

definitely known

37:09

men who have been like, Oh yeah, I want to have some

37:11

kids. Like, yeah, we'll have

37:13

some kids at some point. And then you're like, well,

37:16

when, when is the time that you're like,

37:18

at some point, you know, that, so

37:21

I think it can feel a little more theoretical to

37:23

some parties than others. In

37:25

the equation, maybe

37:27

there is a situation that when they sit down and talk

37:29

about it, partner B is actually like some

37:31

real

37:32

ambivalence does rise up and emerge.

37:34

And he's like, I'm actually not, not sure.

37:37

But if it is something where

37:40

it is a shared sort of ideal that

37:42

they would have more than one child,

37:44

then maybe sort of laying out like, okay,

37:46

well, what if, what if you were the full time

37:49

caregiver, like, and maybe that would instantly make

37:51

maybe he's like, absolutely not. But you know, then

37:53

that's like a data point that they have or, or just,

37:56

and I think sometimes proposing like,

37:58

something that does feel drastic like

38:00

helps the other partner to realize like, oh, this

38:02

is real, like we have to actually talk about

38:05

this. And I mentioned earlier, like

38:07

when my husband and I, when

38:09

I became like a full time writer and also

38:11

had a second kid, I was

38:14

sort of the person who was doing like magical

38:16

thinking about how the second kid part

38:19

would work financially. And he

38:22

was more like,

38:23

well, like, I'm not sure. And then the

38:25

second kid arrived and was like, Oh, this is like,

38:28

this doesn't work at all. And, you know, so we had,

38:30

you know, a series of family meetings that were

38:32

just like, well,

38:33

we can't live here because we don't have enough

38:35

money. And, you know, so we lived in San Francisco

38:38

at the time, which is famously like incredibly expensive,

38:40

and we just like didn't have enough money. And

38:43

so

38:44

we moved and but yeah, there was sort of

38:46

like a series of

38:47

things that were posed. It was like, okay, you find

38:49

a job that pays more money or like stopping

38:52

a writer full time, like, you

38:54

know, or your home with the kids, like,

38:56

and those felt drastic to me. Yeah. The

39:00

least drastic thing actually turned out to be

39:02

like, let's move to another state.

39:06

Yes. Or the other thing that I

39:08

think sometimes happens is that one

39:10

party might have like,

39:12

magical thinking, as you said about, Oh,

39:14

well, when our kid gets into kindergarten,

39:16

then we won't have to pay for their childcare anymore.

39:18

Which like one of my friends kids

39:21

just like, they went, they're really

39:23

expecting that. And they're like, Oh, wait,

39:26

after school care is also really

39:28

expensive. And then also

39:30

like, paying for any time that there's holidays

39:33

that we can't take off. And then all of the

39:35

summer camp expenses, like that's still there,

39:37

like that doesn't go away. So no,

39:39

it's not like the magic

39:42

trick

39:42

of, Oh, we only have to shoulder this essentially

39:44

extra mortgage for one year

39:47

until one of our kids gets into kindergarten.

39:50

But I do think you're right that like, okay, what are the

39:52

options here?

39:53

What are the scenarios that we could possibly

39:55

do? And making

39:58

a choice about that, because the other thing too.

39:59

is if they fester in this position

40:03

where they seem to be right now, it's

40:05

not choosing a choice.

40:08

You're just cruising

40:10

along. If you can come collectively

40:13

to the choice, the decision, all right,

40:15

we're not going to have another kid. These

40:19

are the reasons why. And make peace

40:21

with that.

40:22

That's different than just like, oh, it would

40:24

be nice to have another kid, but we can't quite

40:27

make it work right now. That sort of thing. Yeah.

40:29

And I think it's wise to point out the sort

40:32

of possibility of festering resentment, because

40:34

if that is something that one party really does

40:36

want, that's not a thing that's just going to

40:38

like

40:39

not become like a wound as, you

40:41

know, over time, if it isn't addressed directly in either

40:44

like a choice is made, arrived at together, you know, one

40:46

way or the other.

40:47

What overall advice do you have

40:50

for couples that are trying to figure out how their

40:52

careers affect one another? I mean,

40:55

this is like incredibly banal,

40:58

but I think just remembering

41:00

that you are on the same team. And like, if

41:02

there's going to be like an enemy, it's always

41:04

going to be like

41:05

your partner's boss,

41:08

not your partner. And

41:11

I think sometimes it can be easy to,

41:13

if someone in the relationship is having

41:15

a lot of work stress, it

41:18

can be easy for the other partner to sort

41:20

of like, misdirect

41:22

empathy and sort of feeling like

41:25

helplessness about not being able to like

41:27

fix it for them until somehow getting mad

41:29

at them. Yes. And

41:32

then that just turns that that's not helpful

41:34

at all, even though it's very, I mean, it happened,

41:36

I definitely have done that myself. And

41:39

so wanting them to feel happy in what they're

41:41

doing every day and

41:43

realizing that you have to work together for

41:46

both of you to have as much

41:48

kind of satisfaction as you can, you know, and obviously

41:51

the end to acknowledge the sort of seasonal

41:53

aspect of it and to respect when one person

41:55

is like, maybe putting in more at home and

41:58

one is not and like trying to. to revisit

42:01

it frequently. I have

42:03

so been there with the channeling

42:06

resentment at work into like, it's

42:08

like, well, why don't you just tell your manager this? Like,

42:11

why aren't you just telling them that? Let

42:14

me go in and fix it for you because

42:16

you clearly aren't managing this.

42:19

I'm going to do it.

42:21

Not the way it works. For me, one

42:24

thing that's worked,

42:25

and admittedly, the kids aren't part of the equation,

42:28

but we try to be very clear about like,

42:30

this week is going to be really intense for me. So

42:33

if

42:34

we can figure out how to take some things off of my

42:36

plate, like just the kind of household responsibilities

42:39

and that sort of thing, just communicating

42:42

that in a way so it doesn't reach that point of I'm

42:44

so overwhelmed and also I'm doing all of these

42:46

other things.

42:48

Yeah. And how did you not know? Yeah.

42:50

How did you not? It's like, didn't you notice I was so stressed all

42:53

the time? Just furiously typing

42:55

at my computer. And

42:58

then the other thing too, I think is that

43:00

it's

43:01

hard because I don't think that there has to be

43:03

some equality or

43:06

like it's not as simple as, oh,

43:08

well, I took six work trips this year

43:10

so you can take six work trips or you

43:12

should be able to take like equality. It

43:15

manifests in different ways. Yeah.

43:18

So maybe like, oh, you went on a work trip.

43:20

It would be really lovely if I had some time

43:23

for deep work this afternoon

43:25

or something like that. And there are different ways

43:27

that you can, I think, communicate and give people

43:29

space for the work concentration

43:33

that they need in different seasons of

43:35

the year.

43:35

Yeah. And just like different seasons

43:38

of life too. And I do think too,

43:40

like

43:41

sometimes it's my turn to be ambitious

43:44

and sometimes it's your turn to be ambitious too. Like

43:46

I think maybe one person

43:49

in the relationship isn't interested in that. Like maybe

43:51

their partner, B, and are like, I just, I'm

43:53

so into my hobbies. Awesome. Which

43:56

again, good for this person. But if

43:58

you can figure out ways.

43:59

is to

44:01

make space for that ambition to

44:03

even be kindled, because sometimes I think

44:05

that it goes out altogether because one

44:07

partner can't even imagine having

44:10

choices about the sort of work that they're doing

44:12

or how they're doing it or their time and space that they

44:14

are given to do it. Or making

44:16

a big change seems like that could

44:19

be impossible. Right, right. Like

44:21

even having the space to job search because looking

44:24

for another job is a job in and of

44:26

itself. So how do you

44:28

make space for that to allow someone

44:30

to make a change in their own career?

44:33

My relationship advice is always like talk

44:35

more with each other. Yeah.

44:37

But that's kind of banal too. And even

44:40

if it's not about like work stuff too,

44:42

thinking about the things that the other person enjoys

44:44

is not like an obstacle, but something that

44:46

brings them happiness and not doing like score

44:49

keeping. Yep. But

44:51

also, yeah, making sure that both people are having

44:53

the opportunity to pursue those hobbies or

44:56

whatever it is they're, I'm so curious about the hobbies and.

44:58

No, I know. I want to know what they are. Like are

45:00

they woodworking? Is it golf?

45:03

Because if it's golf, like there's no coming back.

45:07

Is it, like is it a hiking?

45:09

Dungeons and dragons? Is it, is it? Is

45:13

it like when someone told me that they love

45:16

that their husband's hobby is video games

45:18

because it means that they still are like

45:20

present in the home, which is like a very,

45:22

like a lot of women's hobbies as we were talking about earlier,

45:25

so are so often

45:26

tethered to

45:28

the home because there's just no escaping.

45:30

So yeah, D&D or

45:32

video games, it's like, you're here. You're

45:34

here. I can leave the house. Yes,

45:36

you're here.

45:38

You're on duty now. All

45:40

right. What you can multitask. So

45:43

if people want to find more of you on

45:45

the internet, where can they find you?

45:47

Well, I don't know. Social media is like a horrific

45:50

hellscape at this time. I

45:54

was just about to say like, oh, you can go to my website

45:56

and find out when I have book events, but that's not on

45:58

my website. I should go.

45:59

that there. It will be on your website

46:02

by the time this comes out, maybe. Yes. You can

46:04

preorder my book at my

46:06

website, LydiaKiesling.com. I am on

46:08

Twitter. I have talked about, and I will post

46:10

about, book events, especially as they come

46:13

in August and September on Twitter. That's

46:15

probably the easiest place for now. Are

46:17

you going to join threads?

46:19

No. I

46:21

don't know. Maybe. I have a blue sky.

46:24

I'm just, there's so many things.

46:26

I already, I'm like, maybe this is an opportunity to

46:28

re-examine my relationship

46:30

with all of

46:31

this type of sharing and presentation.

46:34

I say that now. I'm sure in seven

46:37

months, I'll be like, oh, I'm in a thread war

46:39

with someone. And my Instagram

46:41

account got banned,

46:43

or I don't know. It just seems,

46:46

it's overwhelming right now, all the different things

46:48

that are happening. I absolutely

46:51

agree. And I can't remember to post

46:53

on any of them, which I think is probably a good sign. So

46:56

they can just Google you and find the book, and that's what

46:58

matters. Yes. Thank

47:01

you so much for coming on the show. This has been a delight.

47:04

Thank you. It was a huge honor to

47:06

be here. I really am grateful.

47:12

Mobility by Lydia Kiesling is now

47:14

available for pre-order. Vulture included

47:16

Mobility on its 14 Books We Can't Wait

47:18

to Read this Summer list. So head to crooked.com

47:21

slash mobility, or wherever books

47:23

are sold, to pre-order your copy today

47:26

and be among the first to read when it's released

47:28

on August 1. And if you

47:30

are in the LA area, come join Crooked's

47:32

own Tommy Vitor and author Lydia

47:35

Kiesling from Mobility's book launch event

47:37

at Dynasty Typewriter in LA. Tickets

47:39

at crooked.com slash events.

47:44

Thanks for listening to Work Appropriate. If you

47:46

need advice about a sticky situation at work,

47:48

we're here for you. Submit your questions

47:50

at workappropriate.com or send

47:52

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47:57

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48:04

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48:07

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48:09

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48:18

And if you like the show, leave us a little performance

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really helps. Work Appropriate is a

48:24

Crooked Media production. I'm Anne Helen

48:27

Peterson, your host. Our executive

48:29

producer is Kendra

48:29

James. Melody Rowell is our producer

48:32

and editor. Alison Falzetta is

48:34

our development producer. Music is composed

48:36

by Chanel Critchlow. Additional production

48:39

support from Ari Schwartz. And special thanks

48:41

to Katie Long and Sarah Geismar.

48:55

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