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Dan might sleep over at your house. Oh yeah,

1:02

I could have the Dan sleepover here. I love

1:04

that. Dan sleepover here. A slumber

1:07

party. A slumber party. I

1:08

like that.

1:19

Hi

1:19

everyone. I'm Anne Helen Peterson,

1:21

and this is Work Appropriate.

1:28

For a show about work, we talk a whole lot

1:30

about not working. This is appropriate

1:32

because contrary to conservative

1:34

talking points, we don't as

1:37

a population really have a problem

1:39

with working too little. If anything,

1:42

we need help figuring out how to work less. How

1:45

to convince ourselves and others that the

1:47

ideal worker is not, in fact, a robot, but someone

1:49

who needs rest, who needs vacation. And

1:52

this is an important one. Also has

1:54

a life outside of work.

2:00

And you know what's part of that life outside of work? People

2:03

and animals, friends and family, and people

2:06

and animals and friends and family die. Sometimes

2:10

we see those deaths coming for a long time

2:12

and spend months or years in anticipatory

2:15

grief. Sometimes those deaths

2:17

come suddenly and we're grappling with

2:19

shock in addition to overwhelming sadness.

2:22

Some workplaces have bereavement policies in

2:24

place that allow workers to take a day, maybe slightly

2:27

more, to attend a funeral. But

2:29

often those allowances are only for close

2:31

family members, even though devastating

2:33

grief is by no means limited to blood

2:36

or legal relation.

2:38

So today I wanted to take some time to think

2:40

about how we can be more expansive and

2:42

how we make space for grief in the workplace, in

2:44

the policy we create, in the way we respect

2:46

the needs of coworkers, in public, and

2:49

in private. I'll note here that

2:51

we got so many questions about dealing with pregnancy

2:53

loss that we decided to turn that into its

2:56

own future episode. But we have

2:58

questions dealing with so many other forms of grief

3:00

and a co-host, as you'll see, who

3:02

spent a whole lot of time thinking through how we can

3:04

be better at making space to grieve both

3:07

for ourselves

3:08

and for others.

3:13

My name is Dina Gashman and I am

3:15

a journalist and author of the new book,

3:17

So Sorry for Your Loss, How I Learned to Live

3:19

with Grief and Other Grave Concerns.

3:22

So what is the story behind

3:24

the book? Why did you feel like you needed to write

3:26

it? So I've been a writer for

3:28

many years. I didn't write about grief until

3:31

my mom was diagnosed with stage

3:33

four colon cancer in

3:36

2015 and she died in 2018. And

3:38

then my sister Jack who died of alcohols in two years

3:40

later. So it was this kind of double

3:43

blow in her family. And

3:45

I had started writing about grief a little bit after

3:48

my mom died, just essays and things

3:50

like that. When my sister died,

3:52

somebody had given me like a book of Zen quotes

3:55

about

3:55

grief. And I just, it made me really angry

3:58

because I love a good. end quote, but like I

4:00

did not want to be sued and I didn't want

4:03

to read about like babbling brooks. I wanted to be

4:05

really angry and you know, pissed

4:07

and all the things. And so I just felt

4:09

like

4:10

I'm a writer. We have this experience

4:13

of, you know, losing two people. And then also

4:15

my sister's alcoholism. I thought just maybe

4:17

I had something to add to the grief

4:19

books that are already out there that are already amazing.

4:22

So it was about a couple months

4:24

after my sister died when I thought, okay, maybe

4:25

I actually should write about this.

4:27

And I also wanted to look at grief like

4:30

straight in the face, right? And instead

4:32

of avoiding it, cause it had come into my life in such

4:35

profound ways. So I was like, you know what, let me just get

4:38

in there and figure this out. And I think

4:40

kind of the journalist and me wanted to learn more

4:42

about it. So I sort of dove in

4:44

and interviewed people. And so it's part memoir,

4:46

part reporting. Well, and

4:49

you know, the alcoholism pit, I think people

4:52

are used to, for lack of a better phrase,

4:55

knowing how to comfort someone when

4:57

they die from

4:59

cancer, right? But I

5:01

think losing someone to alcoholism

5:04

or drug addiction or there's lots of other just

5:06

variations. Like it's complicated. It's

5:08

really complicated. It is. Yeah.

5:11

People don't know what to say in general with grief, I think, but

5:14

yeah, definitely like saying like, Oh, she's not

5:16

suffering anymore. Like isn't like the best thing

5:19

to say to someone who's lost a sibling

5:21

to alcoholism. So yeah, I think people don't know

5:23

how to deal with it. And you know, there's a type

5:26

of grief when they're here, right? I

5:28

mean, yeah, when they're still living, there's a point

5:30

you're like grieving the relationship you want

5:32

to have

5:32

with them. And so that's a whole other thing

5:34

that isn't, I think I didn't understand

5:36

it till I started writing the book. Right.

5:39

Well, or like grieving a parent

5:41

or relative from whom you're estranged. Like

5:44

that, that's super complicated, right?

5:46

People are like, Oh, well, you were really close to them.

5:48

It was like, uh, you know, part of the sadness

5:51

is that I wasn't really close with them. You know, this

5:53

complicated. And then

5:56

we're going to talk about this more, but you know, I recently

5:59

lost a below.

5:59

beloved pet and dog

6:02

grief or pet grief. Also,

6:05

some people really get it. Yeah. And

6:07

then some people are like, it's just a dog. I

6:10

know. Like, yeah.

6:12

It's funny because that was, there were two chapters

6:15

in my

6:15

book that I got cold feet that

6:17

I did not want to write. And one of them was about

6:19

losing pets because one

6:21

was about losing children because I was terrified to interview parents.

6:24

But the pet one, I was like, well, I'm talking about losing

6:26

my sister. I'm talking about all this

6:28

really hard stuff. And there's humor

6:30

in the book too, by the way, but really hard stuff.

6:33

And then all of a sudden it's a chapter about pets. And I just

6:36

thought, oh, maybe that's true frivolous. And

6:38

I told the editor and she's like, no, no, no, you

6:40

need to keep it. And then we got a dog like right at that

6:42

time. And the minute we brought him home, I was like, this

6:44

is totally valid. I cannot imagine

6:46

losing this animal. The chapter is super important.

6:49

And so yeah, I have a friend who just, his

6:51

dog just died and he told me, he's like, this is

6:53

actually maybe harder than when my dad died.

6:56

It's really hard and people don't

6:58

acknowledge

6:58

it. Yeah, well, one

7:00

thing that I always remember is that a friend

7:02

of mine who's a therapist told me that her

7:05

therapist told her that

7:08

grief for pets, like the relationship

7:10

we have with pets is so unique in

7:12

part because they are such

7:14

like a pure and open receptacle

7:17

for our love. The way that you

7:19

love your pet is really unfettered

7:23

by

7:23

societal boundaries, right? Like, I mean,

7:25

just so there is like, there's no baggage

7:28

there. And so when you

7:30

lose that, you're also losing access

7:32

in some ways to that particular love. And

7:35

so I think that that was one of the things that helped

7:37

me recognize why I was feeling

7:40

the way that I was feeling. And I understand

7:43

that people who haven't lost pets

7:45

maybe don't understand how it could

7:47

be that profound the same way that people who

7:49

have never lost someone

7:52

really important to them until that happens,

7:53

right? It's hard to understand.

7:56

It is, and you can still sympathize and empathize,

7:58

but yeah, once you have... true

8:00

deep grief. I lost grandparents who I adore,

8:03

but this was a whole other ballgame. So

8:05

it definitely gives you other layers of understanding.

8:08

Yeah. So

8:10

we want to talk about the intersection between

8:12

grief and bereavement and

8:15

workplace. And

8:17

I was telling you before we started recording

8:19

that we previously

8:21

did not have any questions in our big,

8:24

long document of questions. We have hundreds and

8:26

hundreds of questions that people have submitted that

8:29

were specific to this topic. And

8:31

then I did a call out and we received

8:33

so many, so many.

8:36

And so I

8:37

think that that speaks to

8:39

the fact that this is something that people don't necessarily

8:42

immediately think of as a workplace topic,

8:44

but that is actually a really

8:46

unaddressed workplace topic. It's something that

8:48

we need to talk a lot about. Yeah. So

8:50

we're going to first play two questions

8:52

back to back from grieving people who

8:55

don't fit

8:56

into the company's bereavement policy. This

8:58

is something that I think is really common. There

9:00

are these narrow bereavement policies that

9:02

don't make room for the complexity

9:04

of human grieving. So first we're going

9:06

to hear from Esther and then from Emily.

9:09

Do

9:09

you have any advice for workers or managers

9:11

on requesting bereavement or grief accommodations

9:14

or on formulating policies for nonstandard

9:16

kinds of grief and nonfamilial relationships? I

9:19

lost a close friend to suicide and my manager kindly

9:22

treated it as a sibling loss for official leave

9:24

entitlement purposes. I'm very

9:26

fortunate that my employer has good bereavement leave policies

9:28

generally, but they focus entirely on family.

9:31

I would have been entitled to five days leave for the death

9:33

of an in-law who I'm not close with, but none at

9:36

all for an oldest friend. My experience

9:38

was positive, but I wondered if Anne and the smartest

9:40

people she knows can speak at all on the theme of

9:42

complex and or nonfamilial grief in the

9:44

workplace. Should your employer know your

9:46

nonrelated big love people?

9:49

My question is about corporate policies

9:51

when it comes to grieving chosen

9:53

family members. I didn't have

9:56

grandparents growing up. They had either passed

9:58

or were estranged. So when the man

10:00

I considered my grandfather, the man

10:02

who brought Big Macs for my sixth grade lunchroom,

10:05

who taught me to love licorice, who

10:07

always had a smile for me and said he was so

10:10

proud,

10:10

passed in 2017, the

10:13

best way to categorize him to my employer

10:15

was Godfather. However,

10:18

because he wasn't one of a select few direct

10:20

blood relatives listed in the employee

10:22

handbook for which bereavement

10:24

leave was eligible and there was no HR

10:27

representative, I was forced to use PTO

10:29

instead. I'm curious if, as

10:32

the idea of a chosen family

10:34

has become more mainstream, if there's been

10:36

any movement to create or evolve

10:39

bereavement plans or definitions

10:40

to be more inclusive. All

10:43

right, so the way that I think we should first

10:45

address these questions is thinking

10:47

about why bereavement

10:50

leave policies are often so

10:52

specific and strict in the first place.

10:54

Do you have any thoughts on that?

10:55

I mean, I think, you know, bereavement leave in America

10:57

is not, I mean, it's very scarce.

11:01

So any like that first person was

11:03

saying they're pretty lucky because most companies,

11:06

you maybe get one to five days. I

11:08

mean, it's not great. But,

11:11

you know, it goes along with those traditional

11:13

roles of the mother, the father, the sibling,

11:15

you know, just keeping it at the immediate family.

11:18

And yeah, I think part of that is kind

11:20

of a traditional sort of old school

11:22

way of thinking. And then it may be also,

11:25

they don't want to start opening it up to like

11:27

a neighbor, but

11:29

it is human relationships are

11:31

complicated. So maybe your neighbor is like

11:33

the most important person in your life, right? And right.

11:36

It's hard to explain that to a boss, like my

11:38

neighbor died, I really am struggling. But

11:40

I think, yeah, I would imagine it's just looking

11:43

at things in a more traditional way. And,

11:45

and I don't think the government really budge as much

11:47

on bereavement leave as of yet.

11:50

It reminds me of so many policies that we have

11:52

in place, both like governmental and

11:55

organizational that are really

11:57

trying to look at it.

11:59

legislate or govern

12:02

in a way that assumes that everyone

12:04

is trying to defraud the government or the

12:06

organization. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

12:10

I always think of this for my time in teaching. If you

12:12

try to run a classroom

12:15

with the understanding that every student

12:18

is trying to cheat all the time

12:20

or always trying to get out

12:22

of class for some reason, it's

12:25

going to result in a very specific

12:27

sort of environment and a

12:29

way that those people feel trusted or

12:31

valued,

12:32

whether they're your students or your family or

12:34

your employees. And I just

12:37

like how many

12:39

employees are trying to like

12:41

come up with fake dead grandmas

12:43

so they can get a few extra days

12:46

off of work, right? Yeah. Sure.

12:49

There are a couple. There are a couple people with

12:51

many fake dead grandmas. But when I was teaching, I

12:53

always thought if this person has to

12:55

come up with a reason, like it has

12:57

to come up with another fake dead grandma,

13:00

something else is going on. Right?

13:03

Like there is, again, very,

13:06

very unique experiences

13:08

where sometimes someone just wants to like go party

13:10

and they're just hung over all the time. But most of the time

13:13

they need more leave because something else is going on.

13:16

Yeah, exactly. And you know, it's

13:18

not that every employee is going to be like, oh, somebody

13:20

died because first of all, faking grief

13:22

is pretty gross. Yeah, because

13:24

grief is like, you know, it's like a faking

13:26

of diagnosis or something. I mean, it's such

13:28

a horrible thing to go through. And yeah,

13:31

I don't think every employee, but I think that's part of

13:33

it too, is they're just scared. They're like, well, you know, if

13:35

we open it up to any kind of bereavement,

13:38

people are just going to take advantage. Right. And

13:40

that's just not

13:41

true. I don't think. No,

13:43

I don't think so either. But that is always the fear.

13:45

It's like if we let people work from home, no one's

13:48

going to work. If

13:51

we let people have bereavement leave

13:53

for a chosen family, everyone's

13:55

just going to be grieving all the time. No, that's

13:58

not how it's going to happen.

13:59

I'm gonna be calling and saying like, so and so died.

14:02

And I love that term that that person

14:04

uses like the big love people. Like I think

14:06

that's really sweet, but I think

14:09

hopefully most bosses or employers

14:11

would understand. Like if you say like, this

14:13

is my best friend and they're not, I

14:15

mean, it is tricky because that person was lucky, right? That they

14:18

had a workaround and they could

14:19

say it was a sibling, but

14:21

maybe it's about like finding workarounds

14:24

or just explaining to, you know, why these people

14:26

are important, but we shouldn't have to do that is the point.

14:29

Well, and this also I think connects to the issue

14:31

of like manager trust.

14:33

Yeah. If a manager doesn't

14:36

trust that you say, this was an incredibly

14:38

important person to me, I need to take a few

14:40

days to process this.

14:43

If they think that you are in some way defrauding

14:45

you, then they don't trust you at all. Their

14:48

relationship is a broken one, fundamentally

14:51

it's about something much larger. And

14:53

most of the time I don't think that's the employee's

14:55

fault. I think it's that the manager themselves

14:58

does not create an environment of trust.

15:01

Yeah. I know it makes me think, years ago, I was waiting

15:03

tables at this hotel and I got like

15:05

horrible food poisoning. Like I was a little like green.

15:08

I mean, it was pretty clear. And

15:10

I was like, I gotta go, like I can't do this. And

15:12

I remember the manager didn't believe me. He was

15:14

like, I don't know, it doesn't usually hit that fast.

15:16

Did you really have it? And like, this

15:18

is years ago and I'm still mad at him. So

15:21

like, how dare you? Like I can't, I'm not

15:23

faking, I'm like sweating. And like, so

15:25

it's like, that's not grief, but like I was so,

15:28

like that relationship was never the same. You

15:30

know, it was just so, you know,

15:32

like you're saying, just there's no trust there.

15:35

So, you know, I hope that somebody

15:37

goes to a manager and says like, I'm in pain. I'm

15:40

grieving that they're not gonna, you know, think that they're

15:42

out to get them or something.

15:43

So when we think though about like how

15:46

we can craft policies moving forward,

15:49

because I think most organizations,

15:52

just like from a legal standpoint

15:54

or an HR standpoint, they're like, we have to have

15:56

boundaries in some capacity. How

15:59

are you thinking?

15:59

about what a great

16:02

bereaved mentally policy would look like?

16:05

I mean, I think, so there's an organization called

16:07

Evermore that the woman who

16:09

started Joy El-Mulher, and I found her, I

16:11

interviewed her for my book, but she, I mean, they're

16:14

doing a lot. So I think anybody who's

16:16

interested should definitely check out Evermore because they're

16:18

actually like lobbying Congress and trying

16:20

to get more leave and I think trying to make it more inclusive,

16:23

right? Like so that it's not these narrow

16:25

definitions of mother, father,

16:28

sibling. But I think that,

16:31

you know, right now, I don't even think you get bereaved

16:33

through FMLA. It's just a

16:35

deceptive company. I mean, on a federal

16:38

level, that would be great, but I think that, you know,

16:40

allowing people flexibility at least,

16:43

right? If you're not gonna give six weeks paid leave for,

16:46

you know, grief, I mean, I didn't get that for maternity

16:48

leave. I got two weeks. So

16:50

I think that, you know, it would start with

16:53

acknowledging different kinds of grief and

16:55

acknowledging the different kinds of relationships.

16:58

And at least allowing conversations where people

17:00

can say like, look, if I'm not gonna take off three

17:03

weeks, then I'm gonna need some flexibility or I'm gonna

17:05

need to work from home. Yeah, because for me, a lot

17:07

of my initial grieving period

17:10

was more like,

17:11

I don't wanna put on my work

17:13

face and be around people

17:16

all day. Yeah. And so you can

17:18

still oftentimes do some work. Like I was,

17:20

it was a welcome distraction to do some work,

17:23

but I also like

17:25

having conversations with people made me wanna cry.

17:27

Yeah. So like giving

17:30

people that option to like figure out how

17:32

to work flexibly, I think is

17:34

a good way to do it.

17:36

I think some companies would be like, you

17:38

can list six people who

17:41

are important to you that aren't your blood relatives.

17:44

I guess that too, I don't

17:46

know, regimented? Like it's like,

17:48

because it would be like your will, right? You'd be like,

17:50

I forgot to update my six people. That's

17:53

what I was saying, it's a little morbid. Like we've got my best friends

17:55

on here, you know, they're 20, 20, whatever. Right.

17:57

So it's like hard to say that or like anticipate.

17:59

Like, well, one day, you know,

18:02

this person's kind of reckless. Like, so it's kind

18:04

of hard to like, you know, that's horrible. It's

18:06

horrible. You can't do that. No, I don't

18:08

know. It's about communication, right? Like it should

18:11

just always be a conversation, right? Instead

18:13

of these like super strict rules that part

18:15

of it is I think people don't feel comfortable

18:17

talking about

18:18

it. I mean, I know I didn't at work.

18:21

I mean, I

18:22

would like had this alleyway behind. I

18:25

worked in an office at the time when my mom was diagnosed

18:27

and when she died and that I had this alleyway and I was

18:29

constantly in the alleyway walking and crying and you

18:31

know, that was just my place and

18:34

I was scared to show it at work and

18:36

I look back and I'm like, you know what? If I would have

18:38

talked to my manager and just been like, look, this is what's going

18:40

on with me. My mom is sick. I

18:43

may have some time where I just need to go take a little

18:45

break. He would have, I think it would have been

18:47

okay. I just was so scared because I

18:49

think there's the fear of like, okay, if you

18:51

say that or they're going to like judge your work differently,

18:53

are they going to think you're slacking? It's

18:56

kind of hard to put it out there.

18:58

So this is a great segue into like a kind

19:00

of sub question that we got related to this.

19:03

This is from someone named Katja whose best

19:05

friend was just diagnosed with terminal cancer and

19:07

has three to six months to live and

19:10

the bereavement policy in her workplace does not

19:12

cover

19:13

anyone except for

19:15

immediate family. But

19:17

Katja is wondering how and whether

19:19

to talk to her manager ahead of her friend's

19:21

death. What do you think? I

19:24

mean, I think as soon as

19:25

you feel comfortable, I mean, or even

19:27

before you feel comfortable because it's never really come to, it's always

19:30

hard to talk. I'm like a wimp. I was always

19:32

scared to talk to me just about anything. But

19:35

I think as soon as possible

19:38

because then they're going to understand what

19:40

you're going through and maybe they can

19:42

check in with you or just have that

19:44

extra care with you so you don't feel

19:47

like you have to hold it in. And

19:49

that's a lot. To have that on you that

19:51

your best friend is dying in this in

19:54

this certain amount of time is just so much to hold.

19:56

And so I would

19:57

say as soon as possible, just have the conversation.

20:00

So at least I would imagine

20:02

it would probably make them feel better rather than worse

20:04

to get it out there. Right. Well,

20:06

and the other thing is that at some point probably

20:08

you're going to break under the

20:10

load. If you're trying to pretend

20:13

like nothing is happening, at some

20:15

point there is going to be

20:18

not like an explosion or

20:20

like it's just things are going to fall apart. And

20:23

so if you can

20:25

be anticipatory and

20:27

keep that line of communication a little bit

20:29

more open, I think that's really important. I

20:31

don't think that you have to say like you don't have to disclose

20:35

this person's private information that

20:36

you can just say they're dying. I

20:39

think that's a nice, hopefully people wouldn't pry

20:41

me on that. But yeah, just say like this

20:43

is what's going on. This is what I'm dealing with

20:45

and it's going to be coming on the horizon just so you

20:47

know. And I would think a manager would appreciate

20:50

knowing that right? Because it's hard when it's

20:52

just all of a sudden like, oh, this happened

20:54

and I got to go. Right. I

20:57

mean, yeah. I mean, everyone knows that and they feel like they're being

20:59

communicated to. I just think it would make it

21:02

better on everybody, especially when that person

21:04

does have to take time off. And then maybe they can have

21:06

a

21:07

not a surprise conversation, but a conversation about

21:10

like actually, can I, you know, if there's a bereavement

21:12

policy in place, like can I use some

21:14

of that time like to just go ahead and bring it up? Right.

21:17

Gosh. It's so hard that like

21:20

your best friend, you don't get time for that.

21:23

I just pretend like your best friend is your sister.

21:25

Yeah.

21:44

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21:57

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21:59

Hey

22:02

guys, this is Kenan Thompson. I have

22:04

a problem with you. Yes, you. None

22:07

of y'all told me that AutoTrader has millions

22:09

of new and used cars that I can shop from

22:12

home. I thought we were friends. I

22:14

put smiles on your face, but I'm not

22:16

smiling. No one told me that with AutoTrader,

22:19

a dealer can deliver cars to my home

22:21

or that I could shop by price on AutoTrader.

22:24

No one,

22:25

consider this friendship that you just learned

22:27

we had officially over.

22:29

Finally, it's easy. AutoTrader.

22:40

Our next question is from Danny and it's

22:42

about a different sort of grief. I

22:44

recently lost my dog, Potato,

22:47

back in March. He'd been with me for

22:49

over a decade. I feel lucky

22:51

that this is the first major and

22:54

immediate loss that I've suffered

22:56

as an adult, but navigating

22:58

a new job onboarding

23:01

and training during his illness

23:03

and passing was an absolute nightmare.

23:06

I took one full day off to say

23:08

goodbye, but didn't have any means of

23:11

effectively communicating how much

23:13

I was struggling and how much pain

23:15

I was in. I

23:16

would love your perspective on how to manage

23:19

this kind of unusual grief and bereavement

23:21

at work. This is very

23:23

close to home for me because I lost

23:26

my dog a couple of months ago, a very, very

23:28

special dog who had been through a lot with us

23:31

and I

23:32

was able to take time off because I'm my

23:34

own boss, but for people in traditional

23:36

work settings, what advice do you

23:38

have for this type of grief?

23:41

Well, I'm glad, so glad somebody asked about

23:43

pets because like I was

23:45

telling you before, I, there's a chapter in my book

23:48

about pets and it was one that I didn't know I

23:50

wasn't sure if it should be in there. Is it too frivolous?

23:52

And then I got a dog in the whole thing. You know, I was like,

23:55

animals are incredibly important. People

23:58

sort of brush it off like.

23:59

It's a dog, it's a cat, it's a lizard,

24:02

whatever animal you love. But

24:04

again, communicating and trying to explain

24:06

to somebody why it's so important. There's

24:09

actually interviewed a guy who specializes in

24:11

grief psychology for people who lost pets.

24:14

And it's like his whole business. And

24:16

his whole thing is grief is grief. And he talked

24:18

about the fact that sometimes it actually,

24:21

pet loss can hurt worse because

24:23

it is pure and because it can actually bring

24:25

up other things. Like say you lost your

24:28

mother a couple years ago and then your pet dies, it can

24:30

all kind of come rushing through

24:32

together. So it's really nothing

24:34

to scoff at. And so, you

24:37

know, I think if you've lost an animal and you're

24:40

devastated, I would talk, you know, not

24:42

have that shame. Like don't have that shame of like, oh, they're

24:44

gonna think this is so stupid. They're

24:46

gonna think I'm being like wimpy and just own

24:49

that it really is devastating. And, you

24:51

know, maybe just telling them like, you know, I know

24:53

it's a pet, but I'm truly devastated. I

24:55

loved this animal. Most

24:58

feeling humans would hopefully

25:00

understand that. But I think there

25:02

is a little bit of like embarrassment around

25:04

it, which should change because for

25:06

those of us who love our animals, we understand that

25:09

it's totally devastating. Yeah.

25:12

Well, and I hope people too, who

25:14

maybe don't have that relationship with animals

25:16

or with their pets, like,

25:17

and they're listening to this, maybe just have

25:19

an openness to understand like, you

25:22

might not

25:23

totally identify

25:25

with the feeling of that loss, but

25:27

maybe you can make space to

25:30

imagine how someone might feel differently.

25:33

Yeah. Right? Yeah. And not judge it.

25:35

Yeah, exactly. Because I think that's

25:38

part of it too, is that there is this judgment

25:40

and I've seen this. I really, I saw it happen,

25:43

not with me personally, but like other

25:45

people who have grieved pets

25:48

for, especially for extended period of time.

25:50

It's like, oh, well, why can't they just get over

25:52

it? Right? Or like, that's a little much,

25:54

don't you think? And every grieving

25:56

person's favorite thing. Like when are you going to get over this?

25:59

Right.

25:59

I'll

26:02

be sad forever, but it's okay. Right.

26:05

Like, I'm like tearing up just talking about it and

26:07

we're not even talking about my dog. Yeah.

26:10

And I think like that is such

26:12

an opportunity for you to not be an asshole,

26:15

right? Like to

26:17

just be like offer some grace for someone feeling

26:19

something that you might not understand. Yeah.

26:23

I have,

26:24

when I was 22, my

26:27

ex-boyfriend, who is an incredibly

26:29

important person to me, was killed in

26:31

Iraq. And

26:35

I went to the funeral and was just like devastated.

26:38

I mean, I was devastated for when it happened. And

26:40

then I like went to the funeral in Arlington

26:42

and I was staying with a friend.

26:45

And like, so some people in that

26:47

larger orbit were like, I don't understand why she's

26:49

such a wreck, right? Like they weren't even

26:51

dating. I'm like, yeah, it was more

26:53

than that. Right. Like it was so much more

26:56

important than that. And like,

26:58

I have never forgiven that people could

27:00

react that way. Oh, I don't blame you.

27:02

And so

27:04

I think that if you look at it

27:06

as an opportunity to be really understanding

27:08

of someone, that's a really great way to think about

27:11

it. And also I think people

27:13

sometimes they don't know how to react

27:15

until they've been through it themselves. Once

27:17

you've been through it yourself, like think of every single opportunity

27:20

when someone is grieving, you're like, okay, I'm going

27:22

to be the person I wish all the people in my

27:24

orbit would have been when I

27:26

was grieving, whether it's

27:29

a pet or a human. Like

27:31

it doesn't matter.

27:34

So our next question is from Mindy, who's

27:36

wondering about dealing with death as part

27:38

of her work. I work in a job

27:40

where people don't expect a lot of death, a

27:42

pediatric PT to be specific. I

27:45

have been in the field for about 12 years

27:47

and have had almost 20 kiddos pass. We

27:50

find out these kids die and then have to act

27:52

as if nothing is wrong to treat our other

27:54

little kids. We don't get bereavement

27:56

for them. Although our hearts break, we

27:59

have to use.

27:59

PTO to go to their funerals.

28:02

Is there a way to have some type of bereavement

28:04

for the ones we work with and love so dearly,

28:07

but not have to use our small PTO

28:09

to grieve that loss?

28:12

I mean, it's just so

28:14

hard. Yeah. So

28:17

first of all, God bless the person for doing

28:19

that job. Yeah. Which is to have

28:21

to like use PTO

28:24

to go to, you know, like for someone

28:26

you cared for is horrible.

28:29

Yeah. But I just, I mean, that's so much

28:32

loss, like, like they're saying, it's not all the time.

28:34

I mean, it's, it's a lot. Once is enough.

28:37

Right. Right. So that's

28:39

really tough.

28:40

And one thing I talked to a lot of people about, and I

28:43

did interview parents who've lost children and I

28:45

learned a lot from them. And I think

28:47

like ritual can be really helpful for

28:49

people. So you know, in a lot of ways, like

28:51

a funeral is a ritual, right? Yeah. But

28:54

if that's hard, or you can't take time off, like something

28:57

like finding something else. Um,

28:59

there's a Japanese

29:01

ritual called Mizukukuyo. And

29:03

I found out about it and I was researching and it's basically

29:06

for parents, but I would imagine this

29:08

person definitely could do this. And

29:10

you can probably find it at most like Zen temples,

29:12

but you go and it's honoring, um,

29:15

a child who's died or it's for miscarriage, stillbirth.

29:18

But what you do is you go to the ceremony and they

29:20

say the name of the child and then you can dedicate

29:22

a statue in a garden. Like

29:24

it's called a Gizo statue and you can like go

29:26

visit it. So that's one example

29:28

of like something that maybe you could just

29:31

do yourself, um, to help

29:33

like mark that loss because it sounds like it's like

29:36

the missing of the marking of the loss is really

29:38

hard. Yeah. This is something

29:40

where I think what the policy is just like

29:42

so inattentive to the actual

29:45

trauma of, of doing the work that,

29:48

that is necessary and so important, but

29:50

like

29:51

really, really hard. You don't want

29:53

your employees to burn out

29:55

or to become callous and cold.

29:58

Like you need to

29:59

develop. mechanisms that allow that grief

30:01

to be processed, right?

30:03

And if attending funerals

30:06

is one of the things that, like, I think maybe

30:09

some workers would find that too much, but

30:11

some workers would really, really like

30:13

it, right, as a means of,

30:15

like, seeing all of the people who

30:18

loved that kid, right? All

30:20

of the ways that that kid was special and

30:23

beloved, like, that

30:25

should be part of the workday, right? Like,

30:27

that is part of your job. If you choose

30:30

to make it part of your job, and

30:33

allowing for that, that's something that either,

30:35

like, can happen top down, or

30:37

if this person is part of any

30:39

sort of union, which a lot of healthcare professionals

30:42

are, like, that is a lobbying point,

30:44

being able to have leave for that sort of thing. Yeah,

30:47

like you're saying it, I mean, talk about burnout,

30:49

right? I mean, that's why so many nurses

30:52

and doctors, I mean, there's just so much burnout.

30:54

And yeah, if you're dealing with this, but you're not

30:56

allowed to be human at

30:58

your job, and your job is such a, like,

31:00

emotional one. I mean, I know people are like, oh,

31:02

they're in the medical profession, they need, you know, but

31:04

no, you're human, you're taking care of children. That

31:07

yeah, it should, it would lead to burnout,

31:10

or just somebody feeling like, why am I doing this, right?

31:12

It probably makes it feel less meaningful

31:15

if, but if somebody could say, hey, I want to go to this child's

31:17

funeral, and really bonded,

31:19

then that absolutely should be an option. And

31:21

on the flip side, too, just as like a human,

31:24

I think it's also meaningful to parents to

31:26

see the healthcare professionals who worked with their

31:28

kid, who like, were like, this person

31:30

was special to me, like, I recognize

31:33

this person, not just as a patient, but as

31:35

a person. Yeah, I have heard of

31:37

different healthcare professionals who do

31:39

do,

31:40

like, small services, or remembrances

31:44

for patients, like, in, in

31:46

the workplace, just

31:48

as a way of maybe reproducing some

31:50

of that feeling of closure, and

31:52

of like honoring that person. Yeah.

31:55

So that's something that I think could be

31:58

developed on your own. But I,

31:59

Personally, I think it should be structural. I

32:02

think that it shouldn't be the responsibility of

32:04

the workers to make space for this. It

32:06

should be part of how the

32:08

employer understands

32:11

mental health for the people doing this job.

32:13

Yeah, yeah. That's a good point too, so that

32:16

you're not placing the burden on the person to

32:18

figure it out. But I think that, I

32:22

think it could be a lobbying point. I don't know if anybody's

32:25

pushing for that, but I would think in a profession

32:27

like that, it would be incredible

32:29

to allow for that. And then again,

32:32

yeah, it brings back the meaning to their work. And

32:35

they're not just feeling like they're just

32:37

rounded up and pushing patients through

32:39

the door.

32:40

I do know that a lot of places, this

32:43

is bereavement leave and the specifics

32:45

around bereavement leave are becoming

32:47

a flashpoint for lack of a better word

32:49

and a lot of contract negotiations,

32:52

both on the state level. And I think

32:54

it's Illinois who just pushed

32:57

through a more expansive understanding

32:59

of bereavement to include chosen family. It's

33:01

not paid time off, but it is time off. And

33:03

so I think we're seeing that and it

33:05

becomes more commonplace. Hopefully

33:08

this can become something that like

33:10

becomes a center point of, as we

33:13

refine the workplace to try

33:15

to make it a place where we can be more human

33:17

just generally and less productivity robots.

33:20

Yeah, there are a couple of states that are further

33:22

along than others.

33:24

But, and it is, I do think, coming

33:26

through the pandemic too, that's opened up all kinds

33:28

of conversations that weren't opened

33:31

before, because I don't know how you can

33:33

not be touched by grief in some

33:35

sort of way. And also because we

33:37

had more flexibility just because of no

33:40

one was going anywhere. I think it

33:42

is making people rethink and

33:44

be less afraid to bring those things

33:46

up, to be like, look, I'm gonna wanna work from home.

33:49

Or I need some flexibility. And so hopefully

33:52

it just continues and that people keep pushing,

33:55

but the key is,

33:57

I don't know, I feel like the culture of work, like the

33:59

way we talked.

33:59

to our bosses and things is changing. I think

34:02

there used to be so much more fear. And

34:04

now people, there were always the people that would be like, I'm busting

34:06

in there and asking for a raise, you know, like that. But

34:09

many people do not. But I

34:11

do think it's hopefully shifting to

34:13

like, you don't have to be so timid. It's

34:16

a boss, it's a person. Like you can advocate

34:18

for yourself and ask for things. And hopefully

34:21

people are more vocal about that.

34:26

Hey, Conor O'Brien here. Be honest, we could all use a

34:28

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35:51

I have some exciting news.

35:56

Crooked

35:58

Media reads first book, Mobility. by

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36:02

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It's in the archives.

36:28

So our next question is about the kind of

36:30

like administrative situation that can

36:32

make a huge difference for someone who's grieving.

36:35

This is from Alexis.

36:36

My question is what you think the best

36:38

practices on how to announce a death in

36:41

a co-worker's family. And I'm asking

36:43

this because when my dad died, some people

36:45

at my work knew and I informed my immediate supervisor,

36:48

but she did not tell the whole office. So they

36:50

had no idea why I was out for a few days.

36:53

And then I was just obviously very out of it and

36:55

grieving when I got back. I

36:57

get it's an awkward conversation for a boss

36:59

to have, but I do think it's worth to leave the

37:01

grieving employee to explain, but I understand

37:04

I may have a dirty lens on that. All

37:06

right, this is a tricky one. So what do you think? What

37:09

could have gone differently here? Well,

37:12

I think first of all, it's up to the individual, obviously,

37:14

everyone's different. Everybody handles grief different.

37:16

Some people want to be super private.

37:19

So I was working and then my mom went

37:21

into hospice. Like it was like, it was a very quick

37:23

thing. Like we knew it was going to happen

37:25

at some point, but when it happened, it was like, okay, I got to get a plane

37:27

ticket. I got to go. So I

37:30

think I told my boss, I think my boss did ask me

37:32

like, do you want me to tell people? And

37:34

I said, I said yes, because I didn't, what am

37:36

I going to send an email blast? Right.

37:40

So he did ask me, which I appreciated.

37:42

And I think he just told at least

37:44

my closest coworkers so I could share the

37:46

work. But I think it's up

37:48

to the person,

37:49

but I do think that having a boss

37:51

maybe let people know is nice

37:55

because yeah, then you don't have to go in and feel like,

37:57

okay, is everyone looking at me? Nobody knows there's this big

37:59

secret.

37:59

hanging in the room, I would want

38:02

a boss to let everyone know what's

38:04

going on and why I was gone. And

38:06

then maybe they can do something nice for you

38:08

or just have patience

38:11

and understanding when you come back so they're not like, okay,

38:13

so you've been gone for five days. Where's

38:15

this file that we need? And then

38:17

you're just a burst into tears and have to explain yourself.

38:20

So

38:21

I would think

38:22

having them say something would be the best. Well,

38:25

and I think the employee can also set the parameters

38:27

too. A good manager would set

38:29

up a few options, would say, I

38:32

can tell people that

38:34

you're going through something

38:36

and that's going to be the case for a

38:38

little bit.

38:39

And you'd prefer not to

38:41

have any questions about it. Or you

38:43

could say, and because some people want this,

38:45

right? They want to say, her dad's

38:48

dying. She really would love to talk about

38:50

him.

38:51

Some people love to be asked questions so

38:53

they can just like tell stories about

38:56

the person that they loved, right? Or they

38:58

process that way. And even if it's

39:00

a coworker, maybe they don't feel awkward doing

39:03

that, right?

39:04

Yeah, because there is that weird feeling. Like

39:06

I remember the first day I went back, my mom's funeral

39:08

was on a Wednesday. I went back on a Monday because I had already been

39:10

gone about 10 days. And I

39:12

think part of me was like,

39:14

okay, I'm just gonna get back to routine. I'm gonna get back to work.

39:16

I've already taken time and part of it was guilt.

39:18

Like I've already taken time off. So let me just get back to work and it'll

39:20

distract me. And I remember

39:23

that first meeting in the morning. I was just,

39:25

it felt awkward even though I knew that everyone

39:28

knew. But I was just like, is everyone looking at me as like

39:30

the one that lost the mom? And are they wondering if I'm gonna burst

39:32

into tears? And am I gonna burst into tears? It

39:34

felt kind of awkward. But

39:37

people came up and said, you know, I'm so sorry. And

39:39

that helped me, right? That I didn't have to sit there

39:41

and go, this is why I was gone. And

39:44

I still ended up bursting into tears like an hour

39:46

later and that's just gonna happen. I

39:48

think that's another part of it is just, you

39:51

know, we're always supposed to not cry at work. When

39:53

this kind of thing happens, you know, it

39:55

may and probably will happen and that's just

39:58

human. And I think one thing.

39:59

that could do a lot of heavy lifting is an

40:02

out of office reply. And

40:05

that's where you personally can do

40:08

some of the work of deciding

40:10

how you want people to respond to you or how

40:12

you want to phrase it. And if you normalize

40:14

that within your organization, then

40:17

it's not weird when you put it on and also gives

40:19

you some ideas for what the language can look like

40:22

too. And that's something that I think a

40:24

really good manager would

40:27

start having conversations about that already.

40:29

Because it's so

40:31

normal for us to put on an out of office

40:33

responder for when we're taking PTO

40:36

for other reasons. I

40:38

didn't put one on, but I kind of wish I did because

40:40

then I wouldn't have to deal with

40:43

responding to emails being like, I'm

40:45

sorry, I didn't reply to this. My dog died

40:47

tragically and very young and

40:49

I can't deal with anything. So

40:52

then instead, the auto responder

40:54

is doing the work of broadcasting it to as

40:56

many people so that they can't ask things of me.

40:58

So that's something that I think, again,

41:01

each individual can make the decision on how they'd

41:03

like to wield it. But if you create

41:05

that

41:05

atmosphere, even from the

41:08

top echelons of leadership, having that modeled,

41:10

that that's something that you're allowed to do when,

41:13

not allowed,

41:14

but encouraged to do

41:16

when you're on bereavement leave. I think that

41:18

would be such a great model for an

41:20

office. I agree. Because I think part of

41:22

the problem with grief white so hard is people

41:24

are just so scared to talk about it. And it's just

41:26

this hush, hush, like funerals over,

41:29

get back to life. And people are

41:31

scared to talk about it because they don't want to trigger the grieving person

41:33

when we're always triggered all the time.

41:36

And so it becomes quiet.

41:38

It just becomes tamped down. It becomes quiet because

41:41

nobody wants to upset anybody else. But yeah,

41:43

if it's

41:44

made more, you know, if it's normalized,

41:46

like, okay, it's okay to write what you want

41:49

and express yourself. And then

41:51

I think it would, it would help,

41:53

like all levels of people. Yeah.

41:56

Well, and some people I know, too, have done things

41:58

like, when they've come back to work,

41:59

work. They have dropped

42:03

their loved ones obituary

42:05

in Slack just to be like, this is

42:07

the person that I was grieving.

42:09

I want to celebrate him. I want you to know him

42:12

in some capacity. And so people don't

42:14

want to do that at all.

42:15

So the more that we can have all these different

42:18

models of how grief

42:21

looks in the workplace, the better,

42:23

I think. Yeah, I agree.

42:25

So our last question is from someone who is

42:27

basically in charge of making their own policy

42:30

like I did around bereavement leave, but

42:33

doesn't know how to actually make it happen. This is

42:35

from Aaron.

42:36

I'm self-employed and need some advice about how to handle

42:38

unexpected bereavement leave. I don't

42:41

have a team to take on my extra workload. And

42:43

many of my clients operate with really slim teams

42:45

too. So if I'm not doing the work, it's often

42:47

just not getting done. How do you recommend

42:50

I approach this type of unexpected yet necessary

42:52

time off with clients?

42:54

That's a lot of pressure. Yeah, that's

42:56

a lot of pressure. And I also think though that people

42:58

will give you some grace. Yes, I do. I do too.

43:00

And I think,

43:02

you know, now working for myself too, it's

43:04

like it's all, yeah, if I'm not writing

43:06

the thing, it's not getting written. And you know, so

43:09

there's that pressure to be like, well, I don't want to, I

43:11

don't want everything to fall apart, but chances

43:13

are it won't and it'll be okay. But

43:16

I think, yeah, creating your

43:18

own boundaries and just saying, look, this

43:20

is what's going on. I'm going to need a couple of weeks. And it's, it's

43:23

hard to do that. It's hard. Just like one thing I

43:25

have learned is just being very kind to yourself

43:28

and allowing yourself like being patient

43:30

and being kind and just saying, look,

43:32

I

43:33

know I'm a hard worker, but if

43:36

I take these weeks or whatever and

43:38

just take care of myself and take a bath or whatever I

43:40

need to do, like, then that's totally

43:42

okay. Because life's going to keep moving and

43:44

work will happen. And you know,

43:46

unless you're like saving the planet, like it's

43:49

going to be okay. And I think, yeah, if you just let people

43:51

know, even if you're saving the planet, honestly,

43:54

like no matter what your job is, like

43:56

it's still gonna, it's still gonna be

43:58

there. Yeah. And

43:59

And I think that if you

44:02

don't take some time to grieve, it's gonna come

44:04

back. Yes, even worse. Kick you in the ass,

44:06

right? It is gonna be

44:08

there.

44:09

And

44:11

that's not to say that taking some time is gonna make

44:13

it so that it's not gonna come back and kick you in the ass,

44:16

but maybe kick you in the ass a little lighter.

44:18

In a different way, yeah. Yes, but

44:20

I do think that like, think about

44:23

if someone came to you and said, I

44:25

lost someone so special to me. I'm like,

44:28

I needed an extra week on this. Can

44:30

you give me a little grace? Of course you'd

44:32

say yes. Yes, of course. How can

44:34

you model that same sort of compassion

44:38

towards yourself?

44:39

I think maybe one thing that this person could

44:41

do if it's useful,

44:43

reach out to some of their freelancer

44:46

friends and be like, I just need

44:48

you to tell me that this is okay. Yeah,

44:50

if a client is gonna be horrible about that, then

44:52

probably, you know. They're a bad client.

44:55

They're bad people. And you know, we

44:57

need to make money and pay the bills, but like, you know, I'm a big

45:00

fan of the whole like life is too short thing, so.

45:02

Yeah. But yeah, I think reaching out, like asking

45:05

friends, like would this be okay to do?

45:07

And you know, just talking to

45:10

clients, I'm sure they would be understanding.

45:12

And

45:13

just the thing about grief, too, is it's kind of, it's the

45:16

day by day, moment by moment. Like you may think,

45:18

oh, maybe I take two days off, but then you're like, actually

45:20

I need a week. Or maybe you think I need a week, and you're

45:22

like two days in, and you're like, I actually need work. And

45:25

so just being flexible with like, what

45:27

you're gonna need in the moment may change. And

45:30

to be okay with that, and

45:32

there's nothing wrong with that, right? So

45:34

just be in the moment with like what you

45:36

need as a person.

45:37

Yeah, like really listening to yourself. And

45:40

that's hard because I think we're taught, when it comes

45:42

to work, to not listen to ourselves.

45:45

Right, to push through, whatever. Like

45:47

I always think about the fact that like I used to

45:49

be at the office in New York, at

45:51

around like 5.30, 5.45. Like

45:55

I'd have a weird feeling in my stomach,

45:58

and like my shoulders would be achy.

45:59

and like a little headache-y, right? All

46:02

of those were things of like my body was screaming

46:05

at me, stop working. And

46:07

I'm like, oh, why would I listen

46:09

to my body? Yeah, stupid thing.

46:12

And so if you're so tired,

46:14

if you can't sleep, if

46:17

you can sleep, you can't stop sleeping, if

46:20

you're not hungry, like all of these things,

46:23

there's just so many ways that grief manifests in the

46:25

body. Definitely.

46:26

And like figuring out like, okay, that's

46:29

grief talking to me. Like I need to be

46:31

more attentive to that grief and

46:33

spend some time with it. The thing

46:35

that I did was I gave myself permission to

46:37

take the entire week off,

46:40

which is something like even when I take

46:42

PTO, I oftentimes like still am doing

46:44

tiny, like just tiny little work things. And

46:47

even though I didn't know if I would need that whole

46:49

time, but just giving myself the gift of

46:51

that week, so allow, sounds

46:54

cheesy, but to like allow the grief

46:56

to breathe,

46:57

to not have that limit on it. And

47:00

I also, I gave myself permission that like,

47:02

oh, if you need more after that, like obviously

47:04

you can figure that out. And the people,

47:06

you know, whether it's my wonderful producer

47:08

for this podcast, Melody, or, you know, I

47:11

had a freelance assignment for a women's

47:14

magazine and I emailed my editor and

47:16

I'm going to need another week for this. Like all

47:19

of it went

47:20

really well. And I know

47:22

that other people might not

47:24

expect that. I think that's what we're trained

47:27

with, trying to think that other people are going to respond

47:29

really negatively, but maybe we

47:31

can like hope for the best in

47:34

the way we act to each other. Definitely. So

47:37

the last thing that I think that we should address is that there are ways

47:39

that you can kind of anticipate

47:41

these moments. And

47:43

it might be a time when you can't work because

47:46

of grief. It might be because of illness

47:49

or injury. There are so many reasons

47:51

that you might not be able to work for a

47:53

couple of weeks. And do you have any ideas

47:55

about things that like freelancers in particular

47:57

like us could do to...

47:59

kind of create that safety net for each other?

48:03

Yeah,

48:03

I mean, I think, you know,

48:05

if you work for yourself and it's something that somebody

48:07

else could help with, you know, if

48:09

it's an article you're supposed to write, you know, hopefully that

48:11

can just be postponed. Or if it's something super

48:13

timely, maybe there's somebody that you can say, can

48:16

I hand this off to you? Right. Or

48:18

can you take on this project

48:20

or this client while I'm gone just

48:22

to have, you know, so you're not feeling totally

48:25

adrift or totally lost

48:27

and then maybe communicating with the client

48:29

or whoever you need to work with to say, like, this could happen,

48:32

just so you know so everybody's

48:33

sort of prepared.

48:34

Yeah, yeah, I think that that's such a great idea

48:37

that I hadn't even considered that if,

48:39

let's say, I really

48:41

need it, like I just felt incapable of writing

48:44

for a month, I have other

48:46

newsletter writers that I'm very close with

48:49

that I am sure would write a guest

48:51

post

48:52

for my newsletter during that time. Like

48:55

for this podcast,

48:56

we could find guest hosts to

48:59

take my place for a couple of weeks. And,

49:03

you know, some of those things would mean like, oh,

49:05

maybe I wouldn't get paid for a couple of weeks for like doing

49:07

this podcast. But also I hope

49:09

that one thing that we all have learned to

49:11

do for better or worse is to create

49:14

a little bit of a cushion

49:16

because catastrophes happen in life

49:18

and we need to be able to like

49:20

not be so worried about money. Yeah,

49:23

and not add that to the stress that you're already feeling

49:25

when you're, especially when you're grieving, to just have

49:27

to worry about that too. And I know a lot of people don't have a choice

49:29

in that. You know, it's like, you have to go back

49:31

to work, but having money stress

49:34

on top of it is just, it's too much. Yep.

49:37

Sometimes people call it like a fuck off fund, right?

49:40

Which is like, not

49:41

like go fuck around, but

49:43

like to be able to say like,

49:45

if you can't give me an

49:47

extra week, like I can absorb that

49:49

financially. I'll be fine. I hate,

49:52

yeah. It's good for your mental health for sure.

49:54

All right, so if people want to find

49:56

more from you, where

49:59

can they find? it on the internet, like talk

50:01

to us more about your favorite place to buy

50:03

your book. Your

50:06

local indie bookstore would be would

50:08

be a good spot, but you can get it anywhere. It's called So

50:10

Sorry for Loss. And

50:13

I'm online at dina gashman writes.com.

50:16

And I'm on Well, now everybody's on a million

50:18

platforms. But I

50:20

know where to start. But you

50:22

know, Twitter and Instagram, and then you know, threads, of

50:24

course. All right. Thank you so much for this conversation.

50:27

It was really wonderful. Thank you for having

50:29

me.

50:33

Thanks for listening to work appropriate. If you

50:35

need advice about a sticky situation at work, we're

50:38

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50:40

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51:11

appropriate is a Crooked Media production. I'm

51:14

Anne Helen Peterson, your host. Our

51:16

executive producer is Kendra James. Melody

51:18

Rowell is our producer and editor. Alison

51:21

Falsetta is our development producer. Music

51:23

is composed by Chanel Critchlow. Additional

51:26

production support from Ari Schwartz and special

51:28

thanks to Katie Long and Sarah Geismar.

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