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2:32

Hi everyone, I'm Anne Helen Peterson,

2:34

and this is Work Appropriate.

2:44

Maybe you're like me and you grew up with this idea that

2:46

at some point in high school or college, you'd

2:49

pick what you wanted to do, and

2:51

then, well, you'd do it

2:53

for the rest of your life. I

2:55

think a lot of people around my age internalize

2:58

that idea from their parents or their grandparents,

3:00

who often did figure out what they were going to do,

3:03

even if it wasn't something they ever felt like they chose,

3:06

per se. And then they kept doing that

3:08

thing for decades. My

3:10

granddad, one career. My dad,

3:12

one career.

3:13

There's a lot of structural reasons why they were able

3:16

to do that. And even though the economy has

3:18

changed so much over the last 50

3:20

years, that expectation of

3:23

one career somehow has not. At

3:25

least not for a lot of people who've told me about the quiet

3:28

shame they felt having to quote unquote start

3:30

over in a new career. But

3:32

it's not starting over. You're just taking

3:35

a different turn and taking all your knowledge

3:37

and experience with you to

3:39

be applied in different and surprising ways.

3:42

You're pivoting. And I know

3:44

that that sounds like business speak, which is something

3:46

we try to avoid on this podcast, but

3:48

sometimes business speak can do something valuable

3:51

for our

3:51

brains. That and hearing

3:53

from other people who've pivoted and realized,

3:56

yes, it's hard, but

3:58

it can also be amazing.

3:59

Trust me, I know from experience, and

4:02

so does our co-host, whose voice to

4:04

NPR listeners will definitely recognize.

4:10

My name is Elsa Chang, and

4:12

I am one of the hosts of NPR's All Things

4:15

Considered. So

4:17

hosting a beloved national

4:19

radio show was not always your plan.

4:22

You were a lawyer into your 30s. I was, I was. So

4:25

what's your own story? I also had

4:27

like a real career pivot. So what's your

4:29

story of making one?

4:31

It's so funny because I feel now the journalism

4:33

thing was this just very fortuitous,

4:36

happy accident. And a lot of people

4:38

who have career transitions don't get

4:40

to say that, but I was always convinced

4:42

that I was gonna be a lawyer. Like I was one of those people

4:45

in high school who did like

4:47

competitive speech and debate. And I

4:49

have these Taiwanese immigrant parents who are like,

4:51

well, if you're not gonna be a scientist

4:54

or a computer programmer or a Wall

4:56

Street banker, and you like words,

4:59

well, I guess then you're just gonna be a lawyer. And I kind of happily

5:02

bought into that plan. I

5:05

like the idea of holding court, I

5:08

guess literally like in the courtroom and

5:11

giving these fiery speeches to a judge

5:14

or a jury. And I actually, I

5:16

loved law school. I loved clerking,

5:18

but it was at the law firm. I was at

5:20

this large litigation firm

5:23

in San Francisco. It's called Munger, Tolson, Olsen.

5:26

And I self-selected into this place because

5:29

the people who worked at Munger,

5:31

who work at Munger today are some of the most talented

5:33

lawyers I've ever met in my life. I mean, these are like

5:36

former Supreme Court clerks, former

5:38

federal prosecutors. These are people

5:40

who literally, I believe, could do anything

5:43

they want to in life, but they all chose

5:45

to be at this law firm. So while

5:48

it was like a little rough at the beginning, I thought to myself,

5:51

I just need to stay here longer, and

5:53

I will discover the thing that's keeping them all

5:55

here.

5:56

It was a bad fit. I joke

5:59

to people that... being a litigator is

6:01

like the worst combination of being

6:03

really bored and really stressed

6:06

at the same time. And

6:08

beyond that though, like law firm life,

6:11

it didn't tap into like the pieces of

6:13

myself.

6:14

I liked best. And I didn't realize this

6:16

until later. Like I couldn't put into words at

6:18

the time, but you know, there's a part of me that loves

6:21

to be curious and follow my curiosity

6:23

wherever it takes me. There's a part of me that loves,

6:26

loves, loves getting to know people from

6:29

all walks of life. Like really get to know

6:31

them, really sit down and get into life

6:33

with them. And then I'm just, you

6:36

know, I can be this crazy free-spirited whatever,

6:39

you know, say whatever I want off the top of my

6:41

head and not carefully think about every sentence

6:43

that comes out of my mouth. And I felt like being that

6:45

person didn't fit into the culture of

6:48

a large law firm. And so

6:50

I just felt so unhappy,

6:53

but I was someone up until then, this

6:55

is now like my early thirties, where I

6:58

had just followed like a single track my

7:00

entire life. Like I was that straight A student.

7:03

I was like that machine in high

7:05

school. And I was a machine as a student in

7:07

college and law school. And when

7:10

I got spit out into the real world at

7:12

my first real job, it was

7:14

mind blowing and scary to me

7:16

to discover, oh my God, like even when you

7:18

follow all the steps that you have

7:21

like set out to achieve, you

7:23

don't necessarily check off the most important box

7:26

and that is happiness. Totally.

7:28

And so I'm at this law firm and I think I don't want

7:30

this life. So I just ran away. I

7:33

basically like gave, I think it was one week's notice.

7:36

I had absolutely no plan, no

7:38

plan. That was the first time in my life I never had

7:40

a plan. And to do something so drastic, quit a

7:43

huge job without

7:45

a plan was so uncharacteristic

7:47

of me. But I didn't know where I was running

7:49

towards. I knew I wanted to run away from law, but

7:51

not running towards anything in particular.

7:54

So I took a few months off. I'm living in San Francisco

7:56

at this point. And not only did I not

7:58

have a job.

7:59

like a place to go every day. I had

8:02

just gotten dumped by my boyfriend. I

8:05

had just gotten foot surgery. So I was walking around

8:07

in this like stiff walking cast.

8:09

So I was like limping around. My parents

8:11

were also extremely

8:13

pissed at me, like devastated with

8:16

my choice. Cause they were so proud

8:18

that I was a lawyer and it was the first time in my life that

8:20

I was grappling with

8:21

my parents being ashamed of

8:23

me, really disappointed in me. So I

8:25

had all of this swirling around and

8:28

I was just kind of hanging out in my apartment.

8:31

And I knew that

8:32

wasn't a healthy place to be day in

8:35

and day out. So I signed up

8:37

for an internship

8:38

at KQED, the NPR member station in San

8:40

Francisco, because I was like, you know

8:43

what? I can't just stay inside all the time. And

8:45

I was sort of a public radio listener. Like I wasn't

8:47

a devoted public radio listener, but I

8:49

would listen to these people on air

8:51

locally in San Francisco and think, oh, they seem

8:54

smart and down to earth and

8:56

engaged with the world. Maybe if I just like hung

8:58

out at a place with people like that, I

9:01

can figure out

9:03

my life like slowly, but surely. I

9:06

arrive at KQED. I remember like

9:08

the interview, first of all, for the internship, they were

9:10

like, are you sure you want this internship? Like, first

9:12

of all, it's unpaid. You

9:14

are like way overqualified. And

9:16

I would be interning with 20 year olds, 19

9:19

year olds, people who were still in college,

9:21

answering the phones, taking notes.

9:24

And I was like, yes, this is what I wanna do. The

9:28

other interns got such a kick that I was there. They were like, what

9:30

are you even doing here, answering

9:32

the phones

9:33

with us? But I

9:35

ended up having such a blast

9:38

at that internship. I just, I

9:41

felt such freedom

9:42

to jump from topic to topic.

9:44

Like, you know, in litigation, you could stay on a case for

9:46

years and it can be the most boring, excruciatingly

9:49

boring case in the world. But if

9:52

you're on it, you're on it. And

9:54

in journalism, I mean, if a

9:56

story ceases to be important or

9:58

interesting or... relevant,

10:01

then you got to get out of that story and

10:03

find another story, right? And I thought that

10:05

that was really liberating. I

10:07

was a booker, meaning like I pre-interviewed

10:09

guests for the show. And I loved

10:11

just being able to deep dive into one topic,

10:14

write a bunch of prep on it,

10:16

prepare the host on it, and then move on to another

10:18

topic. And what I also loved when I was pre-interviewing,

10:22

what I began to see the seeds

10:24

of is that connection

10:27

you make in an interview and

10:29

how like if you ask the right questions

10:32

and you approach with the right tone, the

10:34

right curiosity, the right openness,

10:37

you can actually help people become

10:40

the most interesting

10:42

versions of themselves. Totally.

10:45

There's a collaboration in it. It doesn't have to

10:47

be adversarial. Sometimes

10:49

it needs to be more confrontational, but sometimes

10:53

you're helping someone actualize the

10:55

best version of themselves they can be. And

10:58

I loved that. I loved that piece

11:00

of interviewing. And so, sorry,

11:02

this is such a long winded answer. No, I love it. That's

11:05

how I decided like, I want to do more of this.

11:07

And they were like, all right, then maybe you should go

11:09

back to school. And so I did. I

11:11

went to Columbia Journalism School in my early 30s. And

11:14

that's how I eventually

11:16

started the trajectory into public radio

11:18

at NPR. So there are a few

11:21

things that I'll note here. One is that I think a

11:23

lot of people will identify with or

11:25

recognize parts of their own path and they'll like,

11:27

oh, I thought that I just wanted the best of the

11:29

best. And I followed that trajectory.

11:32

And maybe that was internally

11:34

motivated. Maybe it was more externally motivated.

11:36

Maybe it was a mix of all those things. But

11:38

then you wake up at some moment and you're

11:40

like,

11:41

did I choose this choice? Is this actually

11:44

what I want? And I think that I

11:46

love your phrasing of I realized

11:49

that the job wasn't activating the best

11:52

parts of me because I think sometimes

11:54

we

11:55

fall back on the like, I'm not passionate

11:57

about my work or I don't love my job.

12:00

And those are their sticky phrases

12:02

that I think difficult to get our heads around. Yeah. Instead,

12:05

if we think about not,

12:06

no one needs to be in love

12:09

with their job all the time. Exactly. We

12:11

are, but a lot of people don't have to

12:13

be. But

12:15

you shouldn't think that your job doesn't

12:17

activate the parts of you

12:19

that are most valuable, that are most beloved to

12:21

you. And so

12:23

the last thing I'll note is something that

12:25

I think a lot of people are either anxious about

12:27

or can't envision,

12:30

which is, do

12:31

I have to go backwards to start over? And

12:34

not even thinking of it as backwards, right?

12:36

It's just like, I have to go somewhere

12:39

else. And if you've gotten to the

12:41

point where you're in your early 30s or later in your career,

12:44

there's something terrifying about

12:46

going back to that place that you feel like

12:48

you've already gone through that comment. And it's

12:50

the language that does such a disservice. Like

12:52

going backwards is the wrong way

12:54

to look at it. You're going linearly. I

12:57

mean, gone are the days. I meet very

12:59

few people these days who have just like one career,

13:01

one company. Totally.

13:04

It's those twists and turns, those pivots

13:06

and tweaks that you go through along

13:08

the journey of a whole life. You

13:10

can have multiple careers. And even

13:12

what do you define as a career is its

13:15

own malleable thing. In

13:18

retrospect, my journey makes sense because, oh,

13:20

in law, you learn how to question people

13:22

and you learn how to poke holes in people's

13:24

arguments. That leads into journalism.

13:27

But at the time, I was bumbling around. I didn't know

13:29

what the next step was going to be. But here's the thing.

13:31

The heart of it is

13:34

you spend so much time

13:37

working, right? Most jobs are at least eight

13:39

hours a day. They're often

13:41

longer than that. That's a huge percentage of your time.

13:45

I feel like if you have the choice to

13:47

choose your work, and I know that that in

13:49

itself is a privilege. Not everybody can choose

13:51

their work. But if you have the choice, you

13:53

owe it to yourself not only to be

13:55

happy, but you owe it to yourself not even to

13:57

be like mildly bored all the time.

13:59

And I told my mom when my parents were

14:02

so pissed at me so angry

14:04

so disappointed at me They were like

14:06

why would you throw away your law career? You just spent

14:09

the last eight years of your life investing

14:11

in this law career, right? If you count the years

14:13

in law school the years you clerked and

14:15

then went into a law firm That was like about eight

14:17

years at the time when I quit I was

14:19

like if I love what I do

14:22

and I hope to find the thing that I love I Hope

14:25

that I will be working

14:27

Into I don't know my 70s maybe

14:29

80s. Yeah health permitting. That's

14:32

like five decades You

14:35

want me to stick to something cuz I spent the last eight

14:38

years doing it for the next five

14:40

decades Are you serious? It's a

14:43

way of thinking about Education

14:45

and experience as only useful

14:48

to that particular vocation, right?

14:51

And I I really struggled for a while

14:54

once I left academia to think of like

14:57

Oh did I waste time on that PhD? Right,

14:59

especially since I moved into journalism

15:02

and I saw people who had gone, you know Who

15:04

didn't have necessarily any degree and

15:06

were making it in journalism and I was

15:08

mad about the student debt most of all But I was

15:11

also mad about like

15:12

I spent all of his time and I delayed

15:15

adulthood in all of these significant ways But

15:17

now I really think of that

15:19

PhD is Teaching

15:21

me how I approach the world right

15:24

texturing my thinking like teaching

15:26

me how to think so I

15:28

have more gratitude I'm still mad about

15:30

the student debt But I have

15:32

more gratitude and more I think like

15:35

Distance from it and I think that's useful It's

15:37

hard sometimes to do it immediately, but

15:39

I think it's really useful to think of it as

15:41

experience not as a waste

15:44

Okay, okay, there is so much to

15:46

talk about here like so much But I want to

15:48

get into our questions This first one

15:51

is about getting off the path you started on right

15:53

out of college. This is from Audrey I'm 29

15:56

and work as a product manager at Amazon.

15:59

I happened in a product

15:59

management when I graduated college. An

16:02

alum was interviewing for their startup on campus,

16:05

and I grabbed one of those little paper danglies

16:07

from a bulletin board for a slot. I

16:09

never actually chose product management. I

16:12

was just 22 and needed a job, and then it was

16:15

always more convenient to keep doing it than

16:17

switch roles. Seven years later, it's

16:19

turned into a career, and I'm left

16:22

wondering if it's what I really want to do. The

16:24

problem is I don't know what else I would want

16:26

to do. What jobs are out there? I

16:29

don't

16:29

need work to be my identity, but

16:32

I don't want sitting down to work each day to be

16:34

the struggle that it is now. I

16:36

don't have to love it, but I wouldn't

16:38

mind liking it.

16:40

I don't want to look back and have my career be something

16:42

that just happened to me. I want to choose

16:45

it with intention. The only problem

16:47

is I don't know what I want. How do

16:49

people choose? Especially when

16:51

many careers require significant investment,

16:54

like school.

16:55

I love that we're starting this question, because this

16:57

is maybe the hardest question about career

16:59

transition. A

17:02

lot of people often start at the point where they

17:04

know what they don't want to do, but they don't

17:06

know what they do want to do. So

17:08

how do you pick that? And I can

17:11

just speak from my own process. When

17:14

I knew I was very unhappy at the job, well, first of all,

17:18

I was at about 26, 27 at the time when

17:21

I was getting very profoundly unhappy.

17:23

That's when I started seeing a therapist for the first time

17:25

in my life, very regularly, and

17:28

understanding at a very basic

17:30

level why it was so hard

17:32

to even contemplate quitting.

17:35

Then I systematically set

17:37

up informational interviews with people

17:39

I admired who did jobs that

17:42

I wasn't sure I would like, but I thought, let

17:44

me just talk to them about it. And I'm

17:47

kind of conflicted about the whole informational interview thing.

17:50

Yeah, you get to talk for like an hour or

17:52

so, but I feel like

17:54

you need to experience the work to really

17:56

know if it will click with you. But you

17:58

need to start somewhere. having a bunch of conversations

18:01

with people and talking to them about what

18:03

their jobs are like, why they picked that job, what

18:06

they hate about their job, always ask what they hate about

18:08

their job. But I have to say, I

18:10

couldn't really

18:12

jump into what do I wanna

18:14

do with my life until I quit. And

18:16

I know a lot of people don't have that luxury. I had

18:18

some savings. I just knew that I couldn't

18:21

think carefully and intentionally

18:23

about what the next steps would really be

18:26

if I was working 12 hour days and often weekends.

18:29

So I quit and I actually signed up for an online

18:31

career coach that gave

18:33

me the structured way to think about

18:36

what I was good at, what I enjoyed

18:39

and what I wanted to avoid. So I took

18:41

like a battery of skills tests and

18:44

personality tests. I answered questions

18:46

about like what kind of

18:48

work environment I would thrive in. Did

18:50

I like working in groups or did I prefer a

18:52

more solitary environment? Did I

18:54

like long-term projects or daily

18:57

changing projects? Was I someone

19:00

who liked to work at a desk indoors

19:02

or was I somebody who needed to be in motion

19:04

all the time, maybe outside a mix

19:07

of all of that? And it was really eyeopening

19:10

to go through

19:11

this very deliberate,

19:14

self-conscious,

19:16

intentional process of

19:18

getting into the guts of

19:21

what work I would enjoy. And it made me realize

19:23

that finding work you enjoy is a multi-layered

19:26

thing. It's not just like the tasks. It's

19:29

also what kind of people do you wanna be surrounded

19:31

by? What kind of literally

19:33

like what kind of environment do you wanna be in

19:36

physically? And what's

19:38

your attention span like? Like I never thought about

19:40

work in such a multifaceted way. And the most

19:42

valuable insight I got from this

19:44

online career program was

19:47

that I really, really like

19:49

to meet different kinds of people and connect

19:51

authentically with them and

19:53

I needed to find a vocation that allowed

19:56

that constant personal connection.

19:58

And then the next thing I also did.

19:59

which this person may want to consider

20:02

is I asked my friends what

20:04

they thought my greatest strengths were and a lot

20:07

of their Answers coalesced on you're curious

20:09

about people you want to know people at a

20:11

deep level Also, they were like you're a really great storyteller.

20:14

Like I love as you can see I'm like just

20:16

keep on talking and I can't stop I

20:19

love telling stories and I like

20:21

to teach people things

20:23

But if I may think of

20:25

your job as an opportunity

20:27

That can train you that can

20:29

require you to be the person you want to be Like

20:32

what I love about being a journalist

20:35

the reason I think it's sticking so

20:37

well with me is

20:40

It forces me it requires

20:42

of me to develop attributes that I want anyway as a

20:44

person I want to be someone who's a good listener.

20:47

I want to be empathetic I want to be

20:49

curious about the world I want to be open to

20:51

opposing viewpoints and open to

20:53

having my mind changed I want

20:55

to make people feel comfortable

20:58

talking to me

21:00

to feel unguarded And

21:02

so like what can I do to help them open up? Like

21:04

these are all the things I want to be in life and

21:06

I literally have a job

21:08

That helps me practice doing all

21:10

of these things and so I feel this Continuity

21:13

between the person I want to be and the person that's

21:15

required of me in my day-to-day job

21:18

Well, I like that the question asker has

21:21

a job that a lot of people are like What's

21:23

that job like product manager? It's

21:25

a name that you hear and you're like, I don't know what that person

21:28

does But I guess that's a job And

21:30

I think that she should take that in mind

21:32

as she thinks about oh

21:34

I should ask the other people in my life who

21:36

have jobs that I'm like, I don't really know what they do

21:39

and Ask them. What

21:41

is it that you do? What do you love about it? Like

21:43

what is animating about it? right

21:46

exactly because you know, I think like a

21:48

thing that really comes forward in her question

21:50

is I

21:52

Don't know what jobs exist.

21:54

Yeah, you just get information

21:56

gather and then also it's beyond

21:59

that and I know this

21:59

This is harder, but I do

22:02

recommend it. You do have to

22:04

dip your toe a little bit and do the actual

22:06

work, maybe even picking

22:08

up a short-term internship

22:10

or a volunteer position. At

22:12

the very least, shadow

22:14

somebody so you can see kind of the

22:16

day-to-day drudgery too,

22:20

because not every job is going to be 100% glamorous all the time.

22:23

But I feel like it's very hard to talk about

22:25

jobs and work in a vacuum. You

22:27

kind of have to do the thing a little bit

22:30

to test it out. The last

22:32

part of that question that I just want to address quickly is

22:34

she says, I'm scared of

22:37

things that require more school. I

22:39

think that if

22:41

she does all of the things that we've suggested

22:43

to try to get a feel for a lot of different jobs,

22:46

gradually it will become apparent whether or

22:48

not it is essential

22:50

to, say, get a credential

22:53

in some capacity in order to get

22:55

your foot in the door. Sometimes

22:57

for people who want to get into

22:59

tech, you need to take a coding boot

23:02

camp of some capacity. But

23:05

I also think it's worth talking to

23:07

people about whether or not the schooling

23:10

is necessary. Because I think sometimes

23:12

when we are interested in a field, and

23:15

especially for high achievers, the

23:18

easiest thing to do is, well, if

23:20

I just enter a program, that's

23:22

the pathway to my job. It

23:24

is not necessarily the pathway

23:26

to your job. I am so glad that you brought that up

23:29

because so many people who self-select

23:31

into law school have that. They

23:33

don't know what they want to do with their law degree, but law

23:35

school sounds respectable. It

23:37

sounds structured. It sounds like you're not wasting

23:39

your life if you're

23:40

in law school. But

23:42

I'm glad you said what you said, Anne, because

23:44

I think you're thinking about starting an educational

23:47

program. You need to question whether

23:49

you want to sign up for that program because

23:51

it

23:52

aswashes your need for certainty.

23:55

Like if I'm in a degree program,

23:57

I must be on a track. I must be getting something

23:59

done.

23:59

Or are you actually in that program

24:02

because you know it's a crucial

24:04

step to where you want to go? And

24:07

I guess that's what this person is asking. Like,

24:09

I don't know. I don't know. So yes, definitely

24:11

collect as much information as you can. Because

24:14

a lot of people ask me, like, do I need a J school degree to become

24:16

a journalist? And no, you don't. But I know

24:18

for me at the time in my life when I went

24:20

to J school, I had that thing

24:22

in me where I was like, I don't know if

24:25

I'm doing the right thing. And I feel like if I go

24:27

to school, at least somebody is paid

24:29

full time

24:29

to teach me to be a journalist. And that feels like

24:32

more secure. And I had the privilege, I had

24:34

the savings to be able to not work

24:36

for nine months so

24:38

I could be a student. And not everybody

24:40

has that. So I knew I was going to J

24:42

school to assuage a need for,

24:44

like, taking a concrete

24:47

step. Though, I did learn a lot from J

24:49

school. And it was a great experience. It's

24:51

just not something for everybody. Yeah.

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Our next question is from JP. Jane,

28:00

and it's about explaining the pivot

28:02

to others. I've been a social worker

28:05

since getting my bachelor's degree in 2014, and I completed

28:08

my master's

28:09

in social work about four years ago. I'm

28:12

burnt out and have been wrestling with the idea

28:14

that social work is no longer the field for me

28:16

for the past two years. I'm planning

28:18

to make this year my last in this field, and

28:21

I'm going to be looking for jobs that are every turn

28:23

to the kind of office work I did many years ago

28:25

before I began my social work career, things

28:28

like admin assistant or data entry.

28:30

How do I explain the significant change

28:32

in interviews and on my resume or cover

28:35

letter, and how much should I share about

28:37

my educational background when it isn't required

28:39

or relevant to the position I'm applying for?

28:43

I love this question because I am so

28:45

biased. I love

28:48

that she's

28:49

thinking about swerving and she has all these different

28:51

experiences, and she's feeling self-conscious about

28:53

it. I'm like, oh my God, this is your power.

28:56

Okay,

28:57

look, I come from the vantage point of journalism,

28:59

so maybe I'm different. I love it when I'm interviewing a job

29:01

applicant who has done different

29:04

things in their past lives. I

29:06

think it enriches and deepens people when they have worked in

29:08

different worlds with different kinds of

29:10

teams gaining different kinds of skills. They're

29:13

just honestly more interesting to me as

29:15

a potential future colleague right

29:17

at the outset. Yeah.

29:19

There's two schools, I think, two

29:21

of the whether or not you need to put your other

29:24

degrees, like the master's in social work,

29:27

on your resume.

29:29

Because I know that

29:31

for myself, I have a PhD,

29:33

and for other people who have PhDs who are looking

29:35

for jobs outside of academia, sometimes

29:38

it's that signal of overqualified,

29:40

doesn't really want to be here or whatever, desperate

29:43

for a job. But this person,

29:45

their

29:45

question says that they

29:48

have experience in this field that they're applying for.

29:51

It's almost like they broke up with someone

29:53

and they tried a different relationship,

29:56

and they're like, no, I really love this

29:58

other place. Or like moving on.

29:59

back to their hometown. It's like,

30:02

oh, I needed to have a different experience

30:04

to realize how much I love my hometown. And

30:07

so there's a way to really frame it as

30:09

I

30:10

thought that this was something that

30:12

I wanted to do, but I realized

30:14

how much I appreciate this type of work and

30:16

I have experience in this type of work. And

30:18

I think that that actually would signal to me

30:21

as a prospective employer, this person

30:23

wants to do this. Yeah, exactly. This

30:25

person is choosing to be here because they thought about

30:27

it. I mean, I feel like anyone

30:30

can relate to that. Like any interviewer

30:32

can relate to that. I think the days are

30:34

fading now of resumes where

30:36

someone's been at the same company for 20 years

30:38

or, you know, like the IBM man or the GM

30:41

woman.

30:42

People move from job to job so

30:44

much more commonly these days. I would encourage

30:46

this person to be less self-conscious

30:49

about explaining the lack of continuity

30:52

in their resume. I really would.

30:54

Our next listener has an idea of what her dream

30:57

pivot would be, but is also wondering

30:59

how practical it is. This is Lauren. Is

31:02

it actually a good idea to monetize your passion?

31:05

I've worked in politics for 20 years and

31:07

I'm completely burned out.

31:09

I used to love my job, but haven't for about

31:11

four years. It's mostly a recession-proof

31:13

field because elections happen no matter how

31:16

good or bad the economy is. And

31:18

I've worked my way up to the top of my firm.

31:20

There's still room for growth, but I don't want

31:23

it.

31:23

I have financial space to figure things out for

31:26

a bit if my husband keeps his job and good insurance.

31:29

I want to work at or open a bookstore. It's

31:31

still cyclical work and I would still work for

31:34

or own a small business, but with a completely

31:36

different schedule for significantly less

31:38

money. But I wouldn't be trapped in my

31:40

house and I would still do client relations

31:43

and operations management just about books

31:45

instead of elections.

31:47

Or is this just a recipe for hating

31:49

books in 15 years? Does it make

31:51

more sense to do a smaller pivot and keep the things

31:53

we love as hobbies instead of careers?

31:56

I feel like everyone that I know has dreamed

31:58

at some point about opening up. at the bookstore and

32:00

that isn't to suggest that this listener's question

32:03

is cliche. It's just to suggest that

32:05

it seems awesome, but also

32:08

like something that could absolutely implode.

32:11

And I wonder if what she needs to do

32:13

is like,

32:14

talk to some people about small business

32:17

management, right? Or like take some small

32:19

business management, like all class

32:21

to like see if that's something that she feels

32:24

like she can handle. Because if you

32:26

have that,

32:27

those tools, then it's far

32:29

less likely to become this source of burnout

32:31

and overwhelm. 100%, I so

32:33

agree with that. That is very practical advice.

32:36

I was gonna give sort of like larger sort

32:39

of philosophical advice. Yeah.

32:42

Cause I sort of was struck how she was like,

32:44

is this a recipe for hating books

32:47

in 15 years? I mean,

32:48

I just wanna clear one thing up, speaking for myself,

32:51

I absolutely have days, I have weeks, hell,

32:53

I have had months

32:55

as a journalist where I'm like, I can't do this

32:57

journalism thing forever and ever. Oh

32:59

my God, my life sucks right now,

33:01

right? Just because you find passion

33:04

in your vocation does not mean it will not involve

33:06

drudgery, headaches, workplace

33:09

politics, annoying

33:11

colleagues, hostile colleagues, all

33:14

these things that can be very stressful and can infect

33:16

even poison the job,

33:18

right? Every job can suck.

33:21

And it doesn't mean when it is sucky that

33:23

it's the wrong job, it's the wrong work.

33:26

So I would encourage this person like, as

33:28

you're picking what to

33:30

do after politics, like do

33:32

not approach the universe with this expectation

33:35

that you are not supposed to ever, ever, ever

33:37

hate your

33:38

job. Especially like if the

33:40

outlook is 15 years, that's a really long

33:42

time, oh my God, do books for 15 years.

33:44

And if you hate it, if it really comes true that you hate

33:47

it after a decade and a half, that's good run,

33:49

then you get to do something else. It doesn't mean you pick

33:51

the wrong thing just because it lasted only a decade

33:53

and a half, right? I

33:56

guess what I would ask more just

33:58

emotionally

33:59

Before you even get to this place where you're

34:02

thinking I need a change like ask

34:04

yourself are the good days Really

34:06

less than the bad days right just because

34:09

you have a bad day doesn't Cancel

34:11

out the job. I mean, I think it's more realistic

34:13

to ask yourself does it good stuff outweigh the bad

34:15

stuff When your bad days do

34:18

start to outnumber your good days, then

34:20

you can start thinking about a pivot

34:22

But also remember a pivot

34:24

it doesn't have to be a 180, right?

34:26

It doesn't have to mean literally jumping from

34:28

one professional solar system into

34:30

a whole other separate solar

34:33

system Like just in my career

34:35

as a journalist. I've covered different

34:37

beats I've gone from criminal justice to

34:39

politics to economics. I've

34:41

gone from writing long Investigations

34:45

to quick daily turnaround pieces I've

34:47

been a reporter and now I'm a host

34:49

of a show that's literally called all things Considered

34:53

right like I'm literally considering all the things

34:55

every day And

34:56

and then down the road there could be an opportunity.

34:58

I don't know To go more

35:01

into TV or to write a book like I can play

35:03

with the medium down the road so what I'm

35:05

trying to say is like you can have

35:08

a career transition, but

35:09

Maybe all you need is a career tweak

35:12

and I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves When

35:15

we're thinking about what is the perfect

35:17

work? We're trying to come up with

35:19

this

35:20

This singular thing but a lot

35:22

of times just making a couple of adjustments

35:25

or doing different kinds of projects Or maybe working with a

35:27

different team Moving to a

35:29

different city doing that same work can

35:31

be enough to make the work feel

35:34

good again And I just yeah, I just want to remind

35:36

people of that. No, that's such a good

35:38

point I think the other thing that you pointed out

35:40

to that Sometimes work

35:42

sucks. I think there is

35:44

sometimes a tendency to think that if I just

35:47

quit my job

35:48

Everything will be fixed. Yes, right?

35:50

Yes, but sometimes the

35:53

problem is more a combination

35:55

of you And

35:57

also the fact that works of them just sucks

38:00

I wanted in my 20s. It

38:03

would not be a good life. You know what I mean? Yeah,

38:05

yeah. No, I'm absolutely there

38:08

as well.

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40:25

Our last question is about what

40:27

makes a career a career anyways, and

40:29

this is from Claire. I started out working

40:32

in not for profit arts after university,

40:34

and I enjoyed it until I started to feel

40:36

burned out and disillusioned about ever making

40:39

the kind of money that makes security possible.

40:41

I then studied a master's in journalism. I

40:44

did well at it, but then for mostly health

40:46

reasons, I decided not to pursue

40:48

the high pressure lifestyle of journalism Now

40:51

I've ended up working in a professional role at

40:54

a university in a completely unrelated

40:56

field. When I describe my career

40:58

path, it feels like a complete mess and

41:00

a shambles. I feel embarrassed

41:02

about talking about what I see as a string

41:04

of failures. I've always been a high achiever

41:07

and I feel like it was expected of me that I'd have

41:09

a great career, but I feel

41:11

like I've just had a string of jobs.

41:13

My question is,

41:15

how do you describe your career to others when

41:17

you've done a lot of pivots? And how do

41:19

you make plans and goals for yourself when the

41:21

direction seems to be completely random and

41:23

circumstantial?

41:25

This is just full circle for us. We're

41:27

going back to what we were talking about in the beginning.

41:29

So how, what would

41:31

your advice be? I would just love to hear that. I think

41:33

it's a mistake to think about a

41:36

career as this like unit,

41:38

like this one thing, right? That defines

41:41

your, your whole lifetime or your whole identity,

41:44

right? So many people think that my career

41:46

now as a journalist makes sense given

41:49

the

41:49

steps that I took in life from literally

41:51

law school to the present. Like it all makes sense

41:54

in retrospect, only in

41:56

retrospect because you know, like I said,

41:58

there's so much overlap between. law

42:00

and journalism, not only in skill set, but

42:02

also, you know, lawyers, ideally

42:05

fight for the truth. They are

42:07

vindicators of justice.

42:10

Like those are things that you also value

42:12

in journalism. Like for people who understand

42:14

my quote unquote path

42:16

in life, it all seems to be like this

42:18

really logical set of steps. But

42:21

as I was going through each of those steps,

42:23

like quitting at the law firm, interning

42:26

at KQED, I

42:28

mean, dad came to visit me at KQED

42:29

and he had just seen me at the law

42:32

office with a view of the San Francisco Bay and a legal

42:34

assistant sitting outside my office helping me file

42:36

things. And here now I'm in an intern

42:39

cubicle. I mean, in his mind, I remember

42:41

watching his face when he visited me at my internship.

42:43

He just looked so crestfallen. Like

42:46

what is my daughter doing? She's lost.

42:48

And at the time, I

42:50

wasn't sure if I was lost.

42:52

Like I thought there could be a chance I'm lost. So

42:55

I know like in the moment, as you're feeling

42:57

like you're jumping from stepping stone to stepping

42:59

stone, it can feel like these illogical zigzags.

43:02

I know that. I know what that feels like.

43:05

And I would say just go

43:08

easier on yourself because a career

43:11

can be made up of so many different

43:13

things. It's boring to me

43:16

when I meet someone who has only done one thing

43:18

or worked at one company or literally

43:20

had one role their entire life.

43:23

That's less interesting to me. And

43:25

so think of your life as it stretches

43:28

ahead, not as a career, but as a string

43:30

of work experiences that helped you

43:33

be a fuller person. That's

43:35

the goal, isn't it? I love your point

43:37

about

43:37

just being easier on yourself.

43:40

And I think this is something that this question

43:42

asker notes that she is

43:44

a high achiever.

43:46

She probably had some notion in her head

43:48

of what her future path would look like. But

43:51

life is full of things that we

43:53

do not expect. A hundred percent. And I think

43:55

that this person is probably a much

43:58

more interesting. and textured person,

44:01

right? Because of the different pivots

44:04

that she's taken in her life. Absolutely.

44:06

The advice I always give especially to high

44:09

achievers, to over achievers is be

44:12

prepared to throw out the plan. It's

44:14

often with high achievers and over achievers

44:17

where you have these people with these

44:19

very like laid out plans

44:22

and they're so used to executing their plans

44:25

but like I said, like, you know, going

44:28

full circle when I graduated

44:30

from law school, finished that clerkship

44:32

on the ninth circuit and got spit out into the

44:34

real world, I checked all the boxes,

44:36

I followed the plan. Yeah. And

44:39

still you don't get to that even more

44:42

important question of what makes you happy?

44:45

And that's when the plan,

44:47

it's so unimportant.

44:50

And,

44:51

you know, I will tell, this is the last thing I'll say

44:53

to this person. I have been

44:55

asked by Stanford Law School at least

44:57

three times now to be a speaker.

45:00

I came back for a reunion one year, another

45:02

year, I was the keynote speaker for

45:05

their graduation dinner. Another year

45:07

I was the convocation speaker.

45:11

I would have never been asked to

45:13

speak at Stanford Law School.

45:16

I am convinced if I

45:18

remained a lawyer. That's what's so ironic. The

45:20

reason I, the whole reason I'm

45:23

interesting now to my alma

45:25

mater, the only reason

45:27

that I'm

45:27

shiny to them and

45:30

that I have something to say is because

45:32

I diverged from the path,

45:35

that I dumped the plan, that I did

45:37

something unexpected.

45:39

That made me to them,

45:41

someone who had something to offer

45:44

in terms of insights

45:46

on life. And I just was like, that's

45:49

just hilarious. Oh, I had like

45:51

a profile in the alumni magazine. I would never be profiled

45:53

if I was still at the law firm. I would just be a dominoescent,

45:55

right? So be different, be

45:57

bold, be different. It's gonna turn out.

45:59

all for the better. Well, and I think we should

46:02

address, too, that last part of the question about just,

46:04

you know, she generally feels like it's difficult to

46:06

make plans or goals when her career

46:09

feels random and circumstantial. And

46:12

I think my advice in situations

46:14

like this is like, that's okay if your job

46:16

feels random and circumstantial. You know,

46:18

this is something that we say on the podcast a lot, but like, you

46:21

can make plans and set goals and be ambitious

46:24

in ways that have nothing to do with your job.

46:27

Right. So that's like an

46:29

interest,

46:30

like volunteering or

46:32

a hobby or being

46:35

part of a community. Like all of those

46:37

things can be like, those are the

46:39

things that you can start to make plans for. I

46:41

love that you're saying this, Ann, because

46:43

that for me is a new development in

46:45

my own life. I used to think of ambition as like,

46:48

you know, you win the awards, you

46:50

do the big stories, you do like these

46:52

concrete things. But now I see like

46:55

ambition is so much bigger than that. You can be

46:57

ambitious about living a better life, treating

47:00

the people you love more kindly, treating

47:02

yourself more kindly, like doing,

47:05

you can call them hobbies or just whatever, pursuing outside

47:07

interests. Like work doesn't have to be the center of your

47:09

life to be an ambitious person. You

47:12

can be ambitious about wanting to be

47:15

greedier, about living the fullest

47:17

life possible. That is all ambition.

47:20

So I'm glad you said that because I think we can

47:22

get so zeroed in on like,

47:25

what is the work that's going to maximize who I

47:27

am? Well, there are ways outside of work

47:29

to do that as well. That is a great place

47:31

for us to wrap up. So where can

47:34

people find you

47:35

on the internet, but also on the

47:38

radio waves if they want to find you?

47:40

Okay, well, on most days, I

47:43

start going live at 4pm Eastern

47:45

on a show called All Things Considered on NPR

47:48

and everybody wherever you live, you all have different

47:50

radio stations that tune into NPR. But

47:53

usually, you know, I'm on 4pm to

47:55

6pm, depending on what time zone you are. But

47:58

you can also find me on Instagram.

47:59

Twitter, Facebook, all

48:02

the places. I'll say that you're my

48:04

companion from around 430 until 545 every

48:06

afternoon while I prep for

48:10

dinner and just like piddle around the house.

48:12

So that is, it's been a real pleasure

48:15

and delight to have this conversation with you. Oh,

48:17

thank you. Likewise.

48:25

Thanks for listening to Work Appropriate. If

48:28

you need advice about a sticky situation at

48:30

work, we're here for you. Submit

48:32

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48:37

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48:55

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48:55

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48:58

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49:01

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49:05

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49:20

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49:23

And if you like the show, leave us a review on

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49:28

Work Appropriate is a Crooked Media production. I

49:31

am Anne Helen Peterson, your host. Our

49:33

executive producer is Kendra James. Melody

49:35

Rowell is our producer and editor. Alison

49:38

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49:40

is composed by Chanel Critchlow. Additional

49:43

production support from Ari Schwartz. And

49:45

special thanks to Katie Long and Sarah Geismar.

49:57

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