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1:45

Hi everyone, I'm Anne Helen Peterson

1:47

and this is Work Appropriate. So

1:58

I've told you a few times about melodies. are

2:00

a wonderful producer for work appropriate.

2:02

Like this show is what it is because

2:05

of her incredible skill and general

2:07

acumen. And the other day she was

2:09

scrolling through our ever-growing spreadsheet

2:11

of listener queries, giving you submissions

2:14

tags so that she could find them later, and

2:16

she realized something. There were

2:18

a lot of questions covering a lot

2:20

of areas of work that had a similar

2:23

theme. They were from white

2:25

people dealing with white people

2:27

feelings.

2:28

You might know exactly what I'm talking about

2:31

here, or you might need to listen more to

2:33

this episode to get your head around it.

2:35

But the gist is that white people have a

2:38

lot of societal privilege. We know this. And

2:40

yes, that privilege intersects with other parts of

2:42

identity, but the whiteness, that's still there.

2:45

And it's really hard to let go some of the comforts

2:48

in and outside of the office that that

2:50

privilege alots. I mean, this is the biggest

2:52

barrier to actual social justice. People

2:55

with privilege struggling with the fact that equity

2:58

isn't just about trying

2:58

to give other people advantages, it's

3:02

also about letting go of some of

3:04

yours.

3:06

So that's what this episode is about. Well-intentioned

3:08

white people having some white people feelings,

3:11

mostly about work. I wanna be clear

3:13

here that people of color are not responsible

3:16

in any way for these feelings. It

3:19

is not their job to address or solve

3:21

them. White people, including me

3:23

and Melody, this is our job, this is white people

3:25

work. And it's also the job of our

3:27

co-host, who is so good

3:30

at acknowledging the existence of these white people

3:32

feelings, unpacking where they come

3:34

from, and then also doing the very

3:36

important work of pushing white people to actually

3:39

be better. I can't wait for

3:41

you to meet them.

3:46

My name is Garrett Bucks, and I

3:48

am an organizer and writer

3:50

based in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, writing

3:53

about white people and helping

3:55

organize white people to be better

3:57

members of movements for justice.

3:59

Okay, I want to hear about your

4:02

path because I think it's actually really interesting.

4:04

You were kind of involved in these white

4:07

savory type

4:08

social justice passion jobs and

4:11

then took a little bit of a diversion from

4:13

that route. Yeah. So the way

4:15

I tell my story is that I have lived

4:17

a prototypical white do-gooder life.

4:21

I was raised by parents who were very,

4:23

very socially justice minded. I grew up in

4:25

Montana, primarily in a

4:27

predominantly pretty white place and

4:30

very much, I think

4:32

interpreted my parents called kind of be

4:34

useful in the world as a white

4:36

person, as a, oh, I need to

4:38

go work in other people's communities.

4:40

And so I did a lot of the things that prototypical

4:43

white do-gooders did. I was

4:45

a teacher, I taught refugees in Chicago,

4:47

I taught fifth graders in the Navajo Nation

4:50

of New Mexico. I then did a lot

4:52

of things that are prototypical for a certain

4:54

type of white person. I'm not just a white

4:56

person, but I'm a white cis guy. And

4:59

I didn't really question that not only did

5:01

I, was my work for justice in other

5:03

people's communities, but that I had a right to

5:05

leadership roles in other people's communities.

5:08

And so without really asking questions

5:10

about it, I found

5:10

myself both applying for and then

5:12

taking positions where I was an executive

5:15

director or a senior staff

5:17

member at education nonprofits, in

5:19

particular, a long career Teach for America,

5:22

mostly in very black and brown places, working

5:24

with colleagues of color, working with a large

5:27

percentage of women of color, both in partner

5:29

organizations

5:29

and in our organization, and not

5:32

really questioning that, yeah, I deserve

5:34

both to be here and to be the leader and the

5:36

loud voice. And I think like

5:38

a lot of white people, I didn't

5:41

start

5:42

taking seriously the question of

5:44

race in anything more than a liberal

5:47

arts college graduate, I've read all the right books,

5:49

intellectual way, until

5:50

after a while in a lot of

5:52

workplaces, I heard from people

5:54

who cared about me, but who are also fed up

5:56

with me, again, disproportionately, colleagues of color

5:59

and disproportionately,

5:59

colleagues who are women of color, that it sucked

6:02

to work with me. And it sucked to

6:04

work with me in ways that are pretty typical for

6:06

working with white male bosses. Right. And

6:08

then I went through a whole nother stage where I was

6:11

feeling

6:11

badly about that and wanting not

6:13

to have that be my story or my legacy or my

6:15

connection to my community. But that I interpreted

6:17

that as I've got to both I've got

6:19

to be the loudest, most vociferous,

6:22

most unlike other white guys, white

6:25

guy. Right. So I've got to create as much distance

6:27

between myself and white

6:30

and myself and other dudes and myself

6:32

and any anything that right now feels connected

6:35

to that shame of I messed up and I wasn't

6:37

a great colleague. And that

6:39

is really, really useful for yourself

6:42

and your own ego. But I discovered

6:43

after a while that that's not really useful for

6:45

a lot of other things. It actually is

6:48

not useful for social change. It's not useful

6:50

for building connections or community. And

6:52

so after a long time of running from

6:54

whiteness and realizing I was

6:57

not just not having an impact, but probably having the

7:00

opposite impact that I was trying

7:02

to, I

7:04

kind of took a look in the mirror and was

7:06

like, I'm not really

7:08

actually contributing in any real way

7:11

to stitching communities together at

7:14

building movements for justice, at doing any

7:16

of the things I said I was going to do. And I think part

7:18

of that is because I'm ignoring

7:21

the

7:21

piece of the pie that actually is closer to

7:23

me and that I have more responsibility

7:26

for. And that has got

7:28

me interested in the story of whiteness and

7:30

the story of what it would

7:33

take for white people to not just be

7:35

in the way, what it would take for white people

7:37

to be part of the solution and to be better partners

7:39

for justice. And so now

7:42

I do that full time. I run

7:45

a small nonprofit called the Barnraisers Project,

7:48

where I coach and train people across the country,

7:50

disproportionately white people,

7:51

but not just white people, but people who are

7:54

interested in majority white communities and

7:56

what has kept them from being part of movements for

7:58

justice and for the common.

7:59

good and learning how we

8:02

can make them part of the common good and welcome

8:04

white people into movements for justice that are bigger than

8:06

just themselves. And that's

8:08

a really, really interesting thing to think about and

8:10

care about. And so I also write about it. I

8:12

have a newsletter called The White Pages and have

8:14

a book, which is kind of a memoir in some parts

8:17

of the story to coming out next year. And

8:21

it's just a thrill, right? I think that it

8:23

gives me a lot of hope because I've discovered that

8:26

I'm not the only person asking these questions.

8:28

I am not the only person

8:29

who kind of led the path that

8:32

I

8:33

walked on and felt a certain emptiness

8:35

to it. And while I was feeling really

8:37

alone for a while now, I feel really, really connected.

8:40

And that's only one step on the road towards

8:42

helping make the world a better place. But it's been a pretty cool

8:44

one.

8:45

There's so many places where I could take

8:47

this conversation and so many things I want to say,

8:49

but I feel like we're going to get into all of that

8:52

in our questions. So

8:54

the first one we have is from Todd, who

8:56

is trying to do some risk assessment for allyship

8:59

at work. I'm a straight cisgendered white

9:01

guy who's found himself in a variety of leadership

9:03

roles through the years. I've been very deliberate

9:06

about speaking up when I see things that contradict

9:08

my values and I try to hold leaders accountable,

9:10

especially when their actions have an adverse impact

9:13

on people who report to me. While

9:15

I know these are the right things to do, at times

9:18

it's also caused me a decent amount of personal

9:20

stress and had a negative impact

9:22

on my own advancement in my career.

9:24

Now I'm a husband and a father who is

9:27

regularly in a position where I have to choose

9:29

between my principles and putting food on the table

9:31

for my family.

9:32

I've hit a point where I need to learn how

9:34

to choose my battles, but honestly, I'm not

9:37

sure how. What advice do you have for someone

9:39

who wants to find a balance between using

9:41

their position of privilege to support and defend

9:43

those with less power, while also

9:45

not limiting my own career advancement

9:48

and putting my family's well-being at risk?

9:56

I

10:00

see Todd trying something

10:02

new, right? Something that feels different for him and

10:05

that feels focused not just on his own career

10:07

and his own advancement, but feels connected

10:10

to care for colleagues, care

10:12

for some principle of justice, et cetera.

10:15

So the first thing I see is Todd giving it a swing

10:17

and I say, hell yeah, Todd, way to give

10:19

it a swing, man. And

10:22

then I see something that seems really

10:24

familiar to me. And Todd identified as a straight

10:26

cis white guy, which I am as well. And

10:30

one of the things that from my experience

10:33

is

10:34

typical for the workplace and

10:37

living experience for people like us, like myself

10:39

and Todd, but definitely the workplace experience

10:42

is the frictionlessness of it,

10:44

right? That we can pursue our

10:46

career without having

10:49

to have our identity policed, without

10:51

ever having to ask questions about,

10:54

if I do this, am I gonna come off in this

10:56

certain way? If I present in this way, am

10:58

I going to be judged? Is my identity marker

11:00

going to be judged, et cetera, right? And

11:03

that is, I

11:05

don't have to tell you, I don't have to tell every

11:07

listener is literally the opposite

11:09

experience of folks with any sort

11:11

of marginalized identity, right? Women in the workplace,

11:14

queer folks in the workplace, trans folks in the workplace, and definitely

11:16

people of color in the workplace and adding

11:19

all of that on with intersectional identities, right?

11:21

So I think what Todd is experiencing for the

11:24

first time here is some

11:26

of the precarity that come, as

11:28

the feeling, and the real are perceived

11:31

from having to give a crap about

11:34

any question other than just my own

11:36

advancement, right?

11:37

And he's realizing that when

11:40

I'm starting to think like that,

11:42

I'm scared. There may be

11:45

risks to what I'm doing because they feel

11:47

counter-cultural. And this point is a counter-cultural choice that

11:50

he's making, which is still a privilege

11:52

to get to make the choice when they have it foisted on

11:54

you. But

11:55

the way our brain processes

11:57

that choice does feel

11:59

simple. in particular for the first time. And

12:02

so I say that not to just say, welcome

12:04

to the club, it sucks, get over it Todd.

12:06

But I also say like, huh,

12:09

what does that mean if you never had

12:11

to feel that before? And

12:14

what does that mean if you are surrounded by

12:16

folks, including colleagues that you say you care about quite

12:18

a bit, for whom that's been their experience

12:20

at work their entire damn life? So that's

12:22

the first thing that comes up for me. What do you think?

12:25

I mean, I think he feels vulnerable, right? And

12:27

what you're saying that feeling of precarity,

12:30

like that is a feeling of vulnerability in the workplace.

12:33

And I like that you point out that like,

12:36

he is put in this place of

12:38

vulnerability because of decisions that he's making,

12:41

as opposed to people who are

12:43

vulnerable, de facto,

12:46

because of their identities, right? So

12:48

like, there is no control. And in some

12:50

ways, that's like, I mean,

12:53

this is where the tension comes from, right? Is that Todd

12:55

could be like, I don't want to make these decisions anymore.

12:57

I want to back away from that vulnerability

13:00

instead of hanging out

13:02

in it and like feel like exploring

13:05

it, right? Which is the much more difficult

13:07

proposition here is

13:09

to figure out how to feel more comfortable

13:12

in it or like recognize what

13:14

it is, like all that stuff, right?

13:17

But he could also say, I have responsibilities

13:20

to my family. I can't afford this vulnerability.

13:22

That and like that, what an articulation

13:25

of privilege, right? To be able to say, I can't

13:28

afford the vulnerabilities that other

13:30

people

13:31

have just because of who they are

13:33

in the workplace.

13:36

But so what would your advice to Todd be here? Yeah,

13:38

well, I think after sitting with all that that

13:40

we just said, right, like, and what

13:43

I add on is, right, like, we don't want a situation

13:45

in which Todd backs down, we're like, oh, cool, I have a choice.

13:48

I thought that like this whole caring

13:50

about other people thing would just get me ticker tape

13:52

parades. And now it's getting me having

13:54

to worry about questions. I liked it much

13:56

more when I could just be on the fast track. We don't

13:58

want that for Todd.

13:59

for Todd's colleagues. We don't want that for people

14:02

he cares about. We don't want that for Todd's family.

14:04

So the first thing I think I would

14:06

connect with is a

14:09

a regrounding on why Todd is making

14:11

these choices, right? Not just out of

14:13

guilt, not just out of shame, etc. But

14:15

like you sound like you have a professional

14:18

goal here that is

14:20

now deeper and more beautiful

14:23

than just fighting for yourself. What

14:25

is that? And what do you want to

14:27

be true? And in a lot of ways,

14:30

what is the opposite that

14:32

you don't want to be true? Then I would ask

14:34

like, I think it's important to right size the

14:36

moment, right? And this is important for all

14:39

of us

14:39

when we're feeling fear and precarity. I'd ask

14:41

Todd, like, what's been your professional story

14:43

up to this point? And what

14:46

is objectively the current situation?

14:48

What has actually changed about your employability?

14:51

What has actually changed about your family's financial

14:53

situation? What is what has changed

14:56

about opportunities that are actually available

14:58

for you versus just perceived as being available

15:00

for you? And I'm not saying that when Todd

15:02

does that, he's going to discover, oh, actually, there's no risk

15:04

here, there might be, right?

15:07

But then I think then like asking,

15:09

what do I want to be true on both sides of saying,

15:12

like, what is my responsibility to my family? What's the

15:14

conversation with my partner about all

15:16

this? And what

15:18

am I really, really actually aiming for here

15:20

in a way that is rooted

15:22

in as much

15:23

examined reality

15:26

as possible? Yeah, you know, he mentions

15:28

that he was quote unquote, pushed out of

15:31

a situation because he spoke up too early about a

15:33

CEO. And like, yeah,

15:35

the getting pushed out of a job is a

15:37

real consequence. But also, I think

15:40

oftentimes,

15:41

people in Todd's position

15:43

can still find jobs pretty readily, right? It

15:46

seems like this has been something that has

15:48

been his experience, like, oh, like, yeah,

15:50

I got pushed out of this job, but then I found another another

15:52

place of employment. So yes, there

15:54

is the risk there. But

15:56

what are the actual down the line

15:58

consequences of that risk?

15:59

Like maybe you do get pushed out of a company

16:02

that maybe you don't want to be part of that company

16:04

anyway. Like maybe you called bullshit on it and they're

16:06

like, no, we want to stick with their bullshit. And

16:09

so you don't want to work there anyway and you find another

16:11

job. But I think this is great advice

16:13

to like clarify for yourself what

16:16

you're doing and why you're doing it and also

16:18

clarify for yourself

16:20

what are the actual consequences, right? And

16:22

like, I think having these conversations too is really useful

16:24

because when you say it out loud,

16:27

you're like, oh, maybe I don't want to

16:29

like stick up for the people who

16:31

matter to me because I'm like a little bit scared

16:33

of not getting promoted and not making a little more

16:35

money. That's pretty clarifying.

16:38

Yeah. And that's any way that's

16:41

the kind of conversation I would also lay

16:43

on the table with my partner and spouse. So

16:45

say like that

16:47

right now I feel afraid and

16:49

following the path of fear would

16:52

mean being the dude that doesn't

16:54

speak up and works for these crappy tech

16:57

bro jobs that I

16:59

hate and are against my values. Is that

17:01

some that really amps you up as

17:03

my partner or not? I

17:06

would hope he's in a partnership that says, you know what,

17:09

I think

17:09

both of us should hold ourselves to a higher standard here

17:11

than that. But that's why I

17:14

also say like I want to go

17:16

back to our very first reaction to this,

17:18

which is I

17:19

do not want to diminish Todd's feelings by

17:21

saying, oh, I bet this feels new and

17:24

novel to you to finally have to feel this. But

17:27

I think naming that does make

17:29

it a little bit easier to actually right size. How

17:32

much is your fear actually based on real

17:34

precarity right now and how much is it that you've never

17:36

had to worry like this in a workplace before?

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19:06

In the past few years, working life has changed

19:08

in so many new ways, both

19:10

big and small. Fortunately, there's

19:13

a podcast in addition to this one that

19:15

helps us figure it all out. Remotely

19:17

Curious from Dropbox is back for a brand

19:19

new season, asking all the questions about

19:22

hybrid, remote, or as they call it,

19:24

virtual first work. Host Tiffany

19:26

Jones-Brown breaks down the challenges of modern

19:28

work with the help of bestselling authors,

19:31

scientists, comedians, professors, researchers,

19:33

and more. Hear from a time management

19:35

expert on how to find balance in an age of distraction,

19:38

and a fashion historian on how to handle

19:41

unwritten dress codes. Remotely Curious

19:43

even explores tricky topics like caregiving

19:45

and tapping into creativity from the couch. Whether

19:48

you're working from home, commuting part-time, or

19:51

navigating a return to office life, Remotely

19:53

Curious is here to help you meet the moment. Listen

19:56

to Remotely Curious wherever you get your

19:58

podcasts.

20:05

Our next question is from Hannah, who has questions

20:07

about considering diversity in hiring. Our

20:09

producer Melody is going to read it for us. I

20:12

feel weird about the quote unquote reverse

20:14

racism happening in the hiring process

20:16

at my job. I know it's high time for queer

20:18

people, people of color and women to

20:21

get the chances straight white men have always gotten,

20:23

but we are actively turning down very qualified

20:26

white male candidates to make our diversity

20:28

numbers better. They nail the interview,

20:31

have great experience, but we pass

20:33

them up.

20:33

Their gender and race are the only reason

20:36

these men are not being hired. I am

20:38

the parent of two tiny white boys and this

20:40

makes me nervous. Is all of this okay?

20:43

It's definitely spoken of in hushed terms

20:45

at work. No one wants to admit that what

20:47

we're doing is technically biased, even

20:50

though it's with good intentions. The company

20:52

does have good stats in terms of diversity,

20:55

so this is paying off. It just feels

20:57

really weird to say no to a candidate

20:59

and not really be able to offer them a reason

21:01

because the real reason is super taboo.

21:04

All right. So Hannah put reverse

21:06

racism in quotation marks. We don't know

21:08

how much she actually thinks this is a thing, but

21:11

for anyone listening,

21:12

can you explain why reverse racism

21:15

isn't a thing? Yeah.

21:19

Reverse racism, when people

21:21

say that, what they mean is that

21:24

I'm a white person or I am

21:26

watching white people get discriminated against.

21:31

We're receiving treatment that is deleterious

21:33

and negative based solely on our race.

21:37

Reverse sexism, which also says white dudes, would

21:39

be the same thing. The dudes are getting short

21:41

shrift or getting treated badly solely because

21:43

they're gender. This

21:47

is the kind of stuff that has been pointed out beautifully

21:49

by folks who are not white guys for generations,

21:53

but leaning on the wisdom

21:54

of writers about race,

21:56

in particular black women and women of color

21:58

who write about race.

21:59

The reason why this has both been debunked

22:02

and why it's pointed

22:04

out as such a dangerous concept is

22:07

that racism is not just disliking

22:10

somebody, right? Racism is not just having

22:12

a negative experience with somebody because

22:14

of their race, right? Racism is

22:17

rooted in a social system

22:19

that was built up for economic and political

22:21

reasons and different countries have different

22:24

social caste systems that are built up for this reason, but

22:26

the United States, ours was founded on

22:28

chattel slavery against black people

22:29

and indigenous land theft. And

22:32

then other ethnic groups, in particular

22:34

immigrant ethnic groups have then been entered

22:37

into that system of subservience in different ways

22:39

throughout their history, right? But all of it was

22:41

not about disliking black people or brown people

22:43

or indigenous people or even being mean

22:45

to them. It was about whether or not a system is

22:47

set up to benefit white people or not benefit

22:50

white people, right? And that's

22:52

the state of structural racism in the country. So

22:55

what we're talking about in

22:57

a situation like this is

22:59

a situation in which an organization

23:02

probably with some knowledge of there has

23:04

been a long standing structural history is

23:07

trying in one way or another to be intentional

23:09

about that, right? At least in

23:11

its hiring process, right? And oftentimes

23:14

when there is any sort of intentionality about that,

23:16

be that affirmative action, et cetera,

23:19

that's when we start calling that reverse

23:21

racism because we start noticing that this might

23:23

be,

23:24

are we picking on the white people? Are we picking

23:26

on the dudes? Are we picking on the straight people or whatever?

23:29

So what do you think is happening

23:31

in her reaction? For me,

23:33

I think the fact she mentions

23:36

that she has two young boys, it's

23:38

a lot going on. Yeah. It's very,

23:40

like this is where things, when things feel personal

23:44

in some capacity and

23:46

like they will have ramifications on

23:48

you and yours, that's

23:50

when I think a lot of

23:52

white people really struggle with like,

23:55

yes, I am committed

23:57

to anti-racism, but also,

23:59

What about my kids?

24:01

Oh yeah. That's

24:04

one of the primary ways this machine

24:06

has kept rolling on throughout history is

24:08

the appeal to white parenthood,

24:11

disproportionately to white motherhood, to

24:13

say that your individual care and

24:15

love for your kids means

24:18

that you have to stand up for this entire system,

24:20

right? That you can't love your white

24:22

boys in this case unless

24:25

they get to enter into

24:27

the same, in this place workplace

24:29

system generations from now

24:31

that their grandfathers and great grandfathers,

24:34

et cetera would have, right? And

24:36

I am a parent to a couple of white kids too, right?

24:38

And I 100% like all parents

24:41

understand that

24:45

parenthood is 90% fear and longing,

24:48

right? Like

24:51

that the love we have for our kids is

24:54

bound up in fears

24:55

our kids will not be loved and accepted and understood

24:57

for being as brilliant as we see them, right?

24:59

And in our best moments, we can identify

25:02

in particular those of us who raise kids with a lot of privileges

25:04

in society that we

25:06

get to walk the pretty lucky life

25:09

of having our kids not judged by society

25:11

the way so many other folks do in particular, the

25:14

way that happens so much by race,

25:17

but that doesn't take away the fear that we still love

25:19

our kids, want them to be accepted, et cetera. And

25:22

for me, just as a parent, right? The

25:24

act and art of parenting that my wife

25:26

and I have to

25:27

like keep on

25:29

freaking right sizing, right? That the question

25:31

comes up for us is what we really want

25:33

for our kids, just the world

25:36

that's best for them. Or are we

25:38

hoping for a world where they're

25:40

not as isolated and disconnected from

25:43

humanity as we were raised to be, right?

25:45

That being successful, being caring,

25:48

being a member of a community doesn't just involve

25:51

them getting into the best college, them getting the

25:53

best job, them getting their

25:55

own individual brass ring, but it's

25:57

about them loving and being

25:59

loved by.

25:59

a diverse community and

26:02

helping to make their entire community better. And

26:05

being seen and using their skills and using their gifts

26:08

as they do so, but not just for their

26:10

own benefit. That's easy to say,

26:12

that's hard to do.

26:13

And I have 100% trust

26:16

that this writer could probably

26:18

speak to that same love and hope

26:21

for her boys as well. And

26:23

I'm really, really sympathetic to the fact that the societal

26:25

messes we get about what it means to love and

26:28

care for your kids often crowds that

26:30

out. And I would love to start with like, just

26:32

as parent to parent, like connect

26:34

on that conversation before we talk about what's happening

26:36

in our workplace. Because I get it,

26:39

it's rough as hell. And I think there's

26:41

a way cooler world of parenting too that's not just

26:43

rooted in that fear.

26:44

Sorry to parent it up on the work talk, but yeah.

26:47

No, I think it, but I think this is an important

26:49

point because I do think it's shadowing a lot

26:51

of how she's perceiving what is happening

26:54

at work. And she wouldn't have included this fact

26:56

otherwise, right? Totally, yep. And

26:58

one thing I think about all the time is like, you

27:01

know what, if you have so much money

27:03

in the world, if you're so successful, if your

27:05

kids are so successful, like, what does

27:07

that mean if the world

27:09

within which you are living

27:11

broadly sucks for most people?

27:14

Like, it's going to have effects on you. You

27:17

know, we see this in America that

27:19

like living in a profoundly white

27:21

supremacist society is not

27:24

like always great for white people either. It sucks. Pretty

27:27

crappy, pretty crappy actually.

27:28

Yeah. So,

27:31

so how do you think about like the larger

27:33

context of what you're aiming for here? That's

27:35

kind of a sidebar to this other question of,

27:37

I

27:39

do think that this is something that people

27:41

do observe in hiring practices. And

27:44

like, I've seen it even with

27:46

just like

27:47

when I was looking for potential

27:49

people to help me with some research assistance, you know what I

27:51

mean? Like how many applicants

27:54

I received, so many qualified

27:56

applicants, so many, and so many of them

27:59

were white women.

27:59

And

28:01

it was so hard for me to

28:03

figure out, because I didn't want to choose a white woman, because

28:05

I'm a white woman, right? I didn't want to replicate

28:07

myself in my assistant. But

28:12

statistically, you're

28:14

going to get more applicants, just

28:17

because of how our racial

28:19

breakdown in this country is, right?

28:22

You're going to have more white applicants to

28:25

a job most of the time. That's right, that's

28:27

right. So it can create this feeling

28:29

of like,

28:30

why are we turning down all of these qualified

28:33

applicants who also happen to be

28:35

white people? So what I'm wondering

28:37

is if you have advice for

28:40

sort of like a narrative, or

28:42

a way that you can, like a form of self-talk

28:45

of like, this is why this

28:47

is working the way it is, and this is why

28:49

it really matters. This is why this

28:52

makes our workplace a better place to work.

28:54

This is why this makes our workplace part of

28:56

a better society, passing

28:59

up qualified male applicants,

29:00

right? Look at our track

29:02

record of being disproportionately most institutions

29:05

and in most situations of power.

29:06

We know, we're

29:09

just going to nail it, us white guys. I

29:13

mean, how could you pass up to the

29:15

opportunity to have more of us? I just don't

29:17

get it.

29:18

Oh, wait, wait, wait. I want to interrupt quickly here

29:20

to say that I think one thing

29:23

we should point out too, is part of the reason

29:25

why it

29:27

might be easy to perceive a white

29:29

guy as quote unquote, nailing it,

29:32

is because our understanding

29:34

of what professionalism looks

29:37

like, our understanding of what nailing

29:40

it in an interview looks like is

29:42

predisposed to like white

29:45

masculine characteristics, right? And

29:47

what is

29:47

valued and what is excused,

29:49

right? How much of my own career

29:51

trajectory was the past that I could be quote

29:54

unquote charismatic in a very, very specific

29:57

bro-ish way. How much of that was

29:59

what was excused.

29:59

He's not going to be as

30:02

organized at this. He's going

30:04

to need support from other people on that

30:06

angle, but he's going to be a visionary. He's

30:09

going to take risks. He's going to do all those

30:11

things. And where does that come from? So that's

30:13

a great question. These white guys are nailing

30:15

in the area. What does nailing it look like?

30:18

And what has this organization valued

30:20

traditionally about nailing it? And to your point

30:22

of envisioning something deeper and having a

30:24

different vision for this organization, where has that

30:27

gotten you? Where

30:29

has being an organization

30:29

that's valued a particular

30:32

set of skill sets, a particular set

30:34

of backgrounds, a particular set of

30:36

candidates, to what limited

30:39

mountaintop have you been able to climb

30:41

up to? And where haven't

30:43

you been? What's been true in your workplace,

30:46

both in terms of the impact

30:48

you've been able to have in your world or whatever your

30:50

field is? Who has felt

30:53

welcomed and who has not felt welcomed?

30:56

What perspectives have really, really shined

30:58

and which ones haven't, et cetera?

30:59

So I think that question of right-sizing,

31:03

where has this actually left us prioritizing

31:05

this and prioritizing this set of candidates in the past

31:07

is a really great place to start.

31:09

I think I'm just struck by a lot of other things.

31:12

And there's a lot of fear and potential

31:14

fear in this question. And I

31:16

get it. As so

31:19

often in this case, when organizations

31:21

are trying to finally do something

31:23

different and at least have the intention of

31:25

doing something better, that's really, really scary.

31:28

And often, a lot of

31:29

organizations don't do it well. So

31:32

I was trying to think of

31:34

multiple things being true at once. One

31:37

is that it can be

31:39

really, really awesome that this is an organization with

31:41

an aspiration to become more

31:44

diverse and equitable in terms of its hiring practices.

31:46

That's amazing. A lot of organizations are trying to think

31:48

about how to do that, in particular

31:51

since 2020, when we had a singular

31:54

moment where everyone decided to have a racial reckoning

31:56

for one summer and one summer

31:57

alone. And a lot

31:59

of. those moves, a lot of organizations

32:02

made in particular because the cultural

32:04

biases and systems they came from and

32:06

worlds that they came from have been weird and

32:08

ham fisted. And they've been weird and ham

32:10

fisted in ways that have been weird both towards

32:13

white folks, but have been also really, really

32:15

weird towards people of color in their systems,

32:17

right? Like organizations that are trying

32:19

to diversify

32:20

their hiring practices in an unthoughtful way

32:22

are also organizations that sometimes can fall

32:25

into tokenism, that sometimes can see

32:28

black and brown candidates solely as black

32:32

and brown candidates and as an exciting way to get a number

32:34

up or that replicate

32:37

really, really harmful patterns such as hiring

32:40

people of color or women to be singular

32:42

representatives of their race or to solve

32:45

all the problems of inequity in their

32:47

systems and then to blame them when they don't, all

32:50

of these things, right? So I'll

32:52

say, I don't know this person's workplace. I

32:54

don't know in what ways it's really,

32:56

really doing this awesomely and which ways it's being

32:58

really ham fisted, but I want to be open to the fact that it

33:01

may be doing some ham fisted stuff to try to

33:03

get there, right? But what

33:05

we should care about is not whether the ham fistedness

33:08

just primarily means that white

33:10

guys aren't getting a fair shot, right? I

33:12

think we should again ask, where

33:14

do we actually, does this organization actually

33:16

want to go? In what way has this process

33:19

helped them get there?

33:20

Because it seems like in some ways it has,

33:22

right? The saying that like the

33:24

question asker mentions that

33:26

they have good stats in terms of diversity,

33:29

so it's paying off. There's no concerns

33:31

in the question that the workplace

33:33

is a less strong place to work because it's

33:36

now gotten more diverse, right? Perhaps

33:38

that was just left out of the question, but I would really

33:41

ask like, what's the actual fear here? What

33:43

isn't going well versus what

33:45

just is different? And is that different

33:47

bad or is that different? Just a relic

33:50

of we used to do things a certain way.

33:52

And I also think like separating these out and being like,

33:54

is this a question about my kids? Do

33:57

you have any books that you've

33:59

found particular?

33:59

useful for people

34:02

who are in that sort of like, I

34:04

want everything for my kids, but also I want to live

34:06

in a socially just world. Like, is there any reading

34:08

that you would recommend?

34:09

Oh, yeah. So there's a

34:11

couple that I often go to. The first

34:14

is, it was somebody's

34:16

sociology, PhD thesis. So there is

34:18

some academic language in it, but it's been since

34:20

gone to a popular audience. It's called White

34:23

Kids, Growing Up with Privilege in a Racially

34:25

Divided America by Margaret Hegerman,

34:28

H-A-G-E-R-M-A-N.

34:31

And it is this

34:33

result of her ethnography studying

34:35

white progressive parents, desperately

34:38

white privileged parents, and the choices

34:40

they made

34:40

in parenting, and the implicit

34:43

and explicit messages that sent their

34:45

kids over the years about

34:48

race and about their role in larger society.

34:50

Fascinating, right? And there's

34:53

so many books about how to talk to your kids about race.

34:55

This one makes a more powerful

34:57

case that actually much more than the conversations

35:00

white parents have with their kids about race.

35:02

What ends up actually mattering is

35:04

what choices they see you making

35:07

as parents, and whether or not they

35:09

see you implicitly sending the message that fighting

35:12

for

35:12

every little privilege for you is

35:15

more important than fighting and

35:17

caring about your community and the impact

35:19

of that over time on white kids. So it's

35:21

empathetic. It's amazing. It's a brilliant ethnography,

35:23

Margaret Hegerman's White Kids. And then for

35:25

a very personal narrative of trying

35:28

to both ask these questions

35:30

to yourself as a white parent, both

35:33

individually and in the community, particularly

35:36

related to school choices, but not just school choices,

35:39

Courtney Martin's Learning in Public about

35:42

her journey

35:42

as a white mother in Oakland public schools would

35:46

read them a million times over with

35:48

every single white parent book club I could.

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39:32

Okay, so let's move on to our next

39:34

question, which is from Elizabeth,

39:36

who's processing the aftermath of some layoffs.

39:39

I'm new to corporate work and I'm working for

39:41

a seven-year-old tech startup in social impact.

39:45

Last week, our co-CEOs announced layoffs

39:47

of 30 employees, including almost

39:50

everyone on my team except me.

39:52

It was a shock to the team. The

39:55

data showed that layoffs impacted primarily

39:57

women of color, and as a white

39:59

woman, felt angry when this data was not

40:01

addressed. I realized my for-profit

40:04

motivated company does not align with my values.

40:07

In the wake of layoffs, what should I do? Should

40:10

I try to stay with a flexible, insecure

40:12

job or go back to the dependable

40:15

nonprofit grind?

40:16

How can I support my former colleagues and

40:19

process survivor's guilt in a

40:21

remote environment?

40:22

All right, so we're actually only going

40:24

to address part of this question. So

40:27

for the part about whether she should stay in her job

40:29

or look elsewhere, I'm going to recommend that she

40:31

listen to our recent episode about

40:34

layoffs and preparing for layoffs with

40:36

Phoebe Gavin. But Garrett,

40:38

I think you and I can take a look at this last

40:41

part of her question about supporting former

40:43

colleagues and also about processing

40:45

her own survivor's guilt. So what

40:48

can she do to support her laid

40:49

off colleagues right now? Yeah,

40:52

well, first off, shout out to the nonprofit

40:54

world for being something

40:57

that can get be deemed in any

40:59

question a stable grind,

41:01

comparatively.

41:01

It's all relative. Yeah,

41:04

but both of us, I think have the experience

41:06

of being in places that either way

41:08

we were there or afterwards have undergone huge layoffs

41:11

and supporting and caring for colleagues. What's

41:13

been your story there?

41:19

My experience was that no one wanted to

41:21

really hear from you. You obviously,

41:24

you would say something because

41:26

if not saying something is like the person who remains

41:29

silent when someone is experiencing

41:31

grief in any form, right? Like, because

41:33

getting laid off is like the

41:36

experience is one that is filled

41:38

with grief and anger and sadness and

41:40

fear and all of those things. But

41:43

then sometimes the person that you want to talk to,

41:45

the person that you want to hear from is not necessarily

41:49

the person who has the stability. And

41:51

I think that the

41:54

best thing that you can offer is

41:56

if I can be of any assistance

41:59

in terms of networking. working. If I can

42:01

connect you with any people, if there is any

42:03

job listing that you're looking at, and

42:06

you want to know if I know anyone or if I know someone

42:08

in my network who knows someone, like I am here

42:10

to be that resource for you. And being

42:12

very straightforward and clear about

42:14

it is not annoying to me, it is not cumbersome

42:17

to me. You can get in touch with me anytime.

42:19

I want to be helpful in any

42:21

way you can possibly imagine me being

42:23

helpful, even if it's just

42:27

bitching and moaning about the job application

42:29

process because it is horrible, right? And sometimes

42:31

you just need a resource. But

42:34

then also understanding if that person doesn't

42:36

take you up on that offer,

42:37

maybe it's because they want their resource

42:39

to be someone who is going through something very

42:42

similar. I think a lot of times people

42:44

who are job seeking like to be

42:46

in community with other job seekers because

42:49

there isn't that sort of power differential

42:51

that exists of like, well, I have a job and

42:53

you don't, I have stability and you don't. And

42:56

it can feel bad sometimes if you're

42:58

in that situation. 100%. And

42:59

this person

43:02

is talking about survivor's guilt, which of course is

43:04

very, very real.

43:06

And is your story,

43:08

is your issue,

43:10

is your dilemma to play with,

43:12

and not the dilemma to in any way

43:14

be solved for by your former colleagues who are going through

43:17

a really crappy thing. And that includes

43:19

doing things that if I'm showing

43:21

up for them, if I

43:22

am feeling useful on

43:24

my end to them, then that guilt

43:26

will be assuaged, right? They don't have any role in

43:28

that for you. It's tough.

43:31

It's real. It sucks. It is

43:33

there for your loved ones to be a place to process.

43:35

It is there for if you are somebody who is in therapy

43:38

to process in that space. It

43:40

is there to process with colleagues that might be in a similar

43:42

space, but that is not the job of

43:44

whatever you do for your other colleagues. And I'm not

43:46

in any way accusing the question asker

43:49

of wanting to do that, but I've had to separate

43:51

that out, right? I'm feeling a

43:52

crappy feeling. I want it removed.

43:54

That crappy feeling is connected to this

43:56

other person who got a really, really bad deal.

43:59

If I am...

43:59

I'm just the awesomest person to that person,

44:02

like then I might feel a little

44:04

less of that, right? Not how it works. I

44:06

love what you pointed out too about all

44:09

the things that they probably don't need you to be or have the

44:11

right to say they don't need you to be. And this

44:13

is a huge hierarchy of needs situation,

44:15

right? People who are unemployed, who are job

44:17

seekers, most likely the number one thing

44:19

they likely need is a safe landing place,

44:22

is a dignified landing space. And

44:24

one thing that could be really

44:26

useful, we're talking about equity, we're talking about systemic

44:28

oppression, this connects to so

44:29

many other questions, right? We can

44:32

probably assume that people

44:34

in particular from marginalized backgrounds, women, people

44:36

of color, et cetera, are going to be less

44:39

served by traditional whisper networks,

44:41

by traditional good old boy networks, et cetera,

44:43

to get new jobs. So yes, if you can network,

44:46

if you can make connections, that's, and

44:48

if that's what someone wants from you, that's

44:51

great. And that's the most important thing here.

44:53

I also think, I know that we were gonna talk about

44:55

whether or not this person should leave

44:57

her job or not, but also maybe

45:00

you do wanna leave your job if it's this shitty,

45:02

right? If this is the way that

45:04

they laid it off. And also if they feel like

45:07

there is no way for the

45:09

company to build back from

45:11

this, or that it's something that's going to be reproduced

45:14

over and over again, like then it's clearly

45:16

a company that is not concerned

45:18

with these questions. And do you wanna

45:21

be a part of this? That doesn't mean

45:23

that

45:23

you have to quit as like

45:26

a way of signaling allyship.

45:30

Like I think sometimes white people can like get

45:32

really torn up and like,

45:34

I feel like I need to do this. Like how

45:37

do I make it so that everyone knows

45:39

and like they wanna do it in a really splashy way?

45:41

Like it doesn't have to be splashy.

45:44

You can just say like, this was unacceptable

45:46

to me. Communicate that in your exit interview.

45:49

And also,

45:50

you can communicate that in a non, like

45:53

this is all about me way when

45:55

you quit, but yeah.

45:56

Could not agree more. It's not about you, right?

46:00

I mean your own experiences, but like the next

46:02

move you make is not

46:04

to assuage or appease your guilt, right? The

46:07

next move you make including this one is

46:10

not to solve for how

46:13

You are feeling about the

46:15

inequity you experience about you saw

46:17

around you And yeah how

46:19

that makes you feel in particular somebody with a little bit

46:21

more privileged in the situation Survivors

46:24

guilt alone is not a reason to leave an organization

46:26

Misalignment with the organization's values and

46:29

believe that this organization will continue to do harm and

46:31

not care about harm And you are not in position to change that

46:33

harm is a really good reason

46:35

Alright, our last question is from someone who's having

46:37

a rough time with a co-worker This

46:40

is from Dylan and our colleague Austin

46:42

is going to read it for us

46:43

So how do you navigate bigotry in the workplace when you're not

46:45

part of a press class? I'm a heteronormative

46:48

white guy and I've recently been tasked with working with a person

46:50

who my gut is telling me will hold that Against me

46:53

now, I've thought a lot about the ways that I could just singly convey

46:55

to you that I am NOT the problem

46:57

But I think for the purpose of exploring an

46:59

answer this question I'll simply have to ask

47:01

you to take my word for it now I bet the

47:03

house that this person has been burned by quote

47:06

engineering bros before So

47:08

they suspect that I won't respect them or take them

47:10

seriously now I understand where that concern

47:12

is coming from but I haven't yet found a way to assuage

47:14

them of it now I'm not dealing with bigotry

47:16

nor racism nor sexism And I find

47:19

the situation to be very different to navigate than the others

47:21

But

47:21

the standard advice for someone like me on

47:23

building networks with other people experiencing this

47:25

problem It feels a bit too brown shirty

47:28

for my taste

47:29

So aside from turning the other cheek and having patience,

47:31

is there anything you would recommend I do to increase

47:34

harmony? Okay, this is such an interesting

47:36

question Dylan says

47:38

he hasn't got feeling about this. He

47:40

doesn't provide some concrete examples of working

47:43

with this person But for the purposes

47:45

of this question, we are going to take his word for

47:47

it I will just flag that I

47:49

don't think this is big a tree

47:52

I think this is someone

47:54

maybe not being nice to you.

47:56

But Garrett, what's your initial reaction to this question?

47:58

Yeah, first off I I sense throughout

48:01

this question, just this absolute,

48:04

absolute fear of being judged,

48:07

right? You are afraid that

48:09

your colleague is judging you. You

48:11

are afraid that we, as

48:14

random question-answers on a

48:16

podcast, are going to judge you and how

48:18

you're telling the story. You are afraid

48:20

that you are being made to answer

48:23

for the sins of people who might have had a similar

48:25

profession, race, gender,

48:28

etc., as you in the past.

48:30

And it reminds me a lot of

48:33

some elements of the very first question we got, right?

48:36

That this experience, right, of

48:39

feeling judged in the workplace as a

48:41

white guy, heteronormative white

48:44

guy, that this feels probably new to

48:46

you, that being asked to answer

48:48

for the sins of other people, being

48:51

assumed to be something you're not, etc., that

48:55

that's a pretty novel experience. And

48:57

in whatever way you're experienced, in whatever you're picking

49:00

up on it, that feels really, really

49:02

crappy and new to you. And I want to both empathize

49:04

with that, while also really,

49:07

really welcoming you into a curiosity

49:11

about why does that feel new

49:13

to you? Because it feels new to you?

49:15

In what way are you able to view

49:17

this situation objectively? And in what way

49:20

is there a ton of other stuff going on for you?

49:22

In what way that might mirror the

49:25

judgment or fear or

49:28

experience of being misunderstood that your colleague

49:30

may have experienced? And what way does that increase

49:32

curiosity for your colleague?

49:35

There's a lot of here that's not

49:38

concrete, and I don't blame you for it, but because

49:40

that I don't want to get even further into specific

49:43

advice, except to say, I bet that does

49:46

feel really, really crappy. And I bet that does

49:48

kind of put your body on alert in a way

49:50

that makes you then perceive a

49:52

lot more that may or may not be there.

49:55

And starting from that place of a grace for yourself

49:57

that this feels new and different.

49:59

and a curiosity for why it might, and therefore

50:02

a curiosity for this other person who probably is

50:04

not waking up in the morning trying to make you

50:06

feel crappy

50:07

is where I would first start just with

50:09

the pure volume of emotions you're feeling

50:11

about it. I agree with you, and I feel

50:14

like it feels really hard

50:16

to be treated in a

50:18

way based on that person's experiences

50:21

or assumptions or built-in prejudices

50:24

about who

50:26

you are simply because of your identity. And you

50:29

said this earlier in our conversation,

50:33

it's not a useful solution to be like,

50:35

welcome to being a marginalized identity,

50:37

right? That doesn't necessarily

50:40

make people change their behavior or make

50:42

them feel better. And we are not

50:44

in the business here of making this

50:46

question asker feel better. More,

50:48

we are trying to say,

50:50

okay, what's going on here?

50:53

Why does it feel the way that it feels? Why

50:56

does it feel so crappy? Because I

50:58

think that's the sense I get too, is that it feels

51:00

like crap. And so

51:03

understanding why it feels like

51:05

crap, this is for me when you get a diagnosis

51:07

at the doctor, you're like, at least I know what's

51:09

happening now.

51:11

He asks for solutions

51:13

other than patients. But

51:17

I do think patients is part of it, right? You just

51:19

have to

51:21

show that that's not

51:23

who you are, right? And also show that you

51:25

are a trustable person in the workplace. And you

51:27

can't just say, just trust me to make that

51:29

you are a trustable person in this workplace. I

51:32

love that so much. And there's another thing this person identified

51:35

in pretty colorful language, but I still think it was a really

51:37

interesting thing to identify that I want to

51:39

just affirm, which is that

51:41

they also don't want to go seek

51:44

commiseration with other people

51:46

who he identifies as like most likely

51:48

to say, Hell yeah, I agree with you. Right?

51:51

Like, in this case, other white heteronormative

51:53

guys are going to be like, Yeah, this

51:55

is reverse racism and stuff like that, right? That's

51:57

the kind of commiseration we don't need. What I do is

51:59

think is the kind of outreach that you do

52:02

need is to colleagues from

52:04

a wide range of backgrounds who you

52:06

know are not going to just agree with you

52:09

in this case, but say, hey, this is

52:11

the situation. I'm open to the idea

52:13

that this goes both ways. I

52:14

would caution this person from like doing

52:17

it a larger forum of people that you don't necessarily

52:19

trust because then it just like frames

52:22

this other employee as

52:24

the problem, which is part of probably

52:27

what this person is pushing back against is this

52:29

perception because of who I am

52:31

because of my identity, I am the problem. So

52:34

there might be a smaller, like

52:36

maybe it's a manager, maybe it's someone who's lateral

52:38

to you and you say, what are some ways that

52:40

I can maybe work on this?

52:42

I think that there is also maybe

52:44

a tendency that someone might

52:47

say, oh, well, why don't you just go ask

52:49

her how you can be more trustworthy?

52:52

What do you think of that advice? I

52:54

would not jump to that. I would

52:56

not either. Because

52:59

again, it would just go back to the previous comment.

53:01

Well, first off, I say just everything you just said about,

53:03

yes, you should seek advice in places

53:06

that don't increase the level of dis-safety

53:08

for the other person. Right. And

53:11

if this is a workplace with no venues for that,

53:13

no ombuds person, no safe human

53:15

resources shop, no boss you can

53:17

trust, et cetera, then that's one thing. But

53:20

I hope that there's something like that. Something you could trust

53:22

who's going to not just tell you you're right. But

53:24

then the other piece, right, when you go to that

53:27

other person and say, how can I make

53:29

you like me? How can I make you trust

53:31

me? Right. What that is communicating

53:33

to the other person that their role

53:36

in the workplace is solely to make you feel good about

53:38

yourself, that your concerns, whether or not

53:40

they are or not. Right. What

53:43

I would want to know about a colleague who

53:45

is new, who has a different experience

53:48

and background for me is I

53:50

would like to know about them. I

53:52

would like to know about what

53:54

makes them tick, about what their professional

53:56

and personal experiences are previous to the

53:59

space, what has been awesome.

53:59

about this, what have been not about

54:02

that, what their hopes and dreams are for this

54:04

job, what their hopes and dreams are for the college. And that

54:06

does not have to be a single ridiculous

54:08

coffee. Tell me about yourself, right?

54:10

Like, let's get coffee and tell me

54:13

about yourself. But you all work intimately,

54:15

right? You all worked to get

54:17

a disorder person. And

54:19

if you are only looking at the

54:21

person wondering what they're thinking about me, that means that

54:24

you are not naturally looking

54:26

at the other person and wondering, I don't know much about

54:28

them. And when you shift

54:30

that curiosity, those moments to learn

54:32

more about them are going to come up.

54:34

Yeah. Like, even if you're just talking about previous work

54:37

experience, right? And there may be describing

54:39

a previous work environment that was

54:41

kind of hostile. You're like, that really

54:43

sucks. I'm sorry that that happened. Yeah.

54:46

That is a form of trust, right? Like, that

54:48

is a form of trust building. And again, that's

54:51

a form of patience too. But

54:53

that's what needs to happen here. Like, there is

54:55

no fast solution for rebuilding

54:58

broken trust because of lots

55:00

of systemic shit. That is part of the work.

55:03

The work is hard, but the work is hard because it's worth doing. 100%.

55:05

As a

55:07

white guy, I operate

55:09

in a world where a

55:12

lot of people I care about, a lot of people I admire,

55:14

a lot of people I respect have been really,

55:17

really hurt by folks like me.

55:19

And none

55:21

of those people in my life need a not all guys, not all

55:23

men, not all white guys for me. None of those people need

55:25

me necessarily in their life. But

55:27

if I care about them, right, and if somebody that I care

55:29

about enough to build trust with,

55:33

that that's because I've actually

55:35

made a decision, this relationship either is one

55:37

that I want to be important or

55:39

that needs to be important for a specific

55:41

reason, or that I'm really,

55:44

really curious about. And if I'm

55:46

curious about a relationship, if I imagine it can be important,

55:48

then

55:49

what matters first is them. And

55:52

what matters first is what they need from friends,

55:54

what they need from colleagues, what they need from in case

55:57

my wife a partner, and

55:59

what matters

55:59

second is whether or not they

56:02

view me as being different from other people who've hurt them

56:04

or not. That's a great place for us to

56:06

wrap up. Garrett, it has

56:09

been such a pleasure having you on the podcast.

56:12

I think we're going to have you on again because we

56:14

could talk for a very long time

56:16

about these sorts of questions.

56:17

Wait, there's more white people out there? Where

56:21

can people find you on the internet if they want

56:23

to hear more from you? The

56:26

easiest two places go to thewhitepages.substack.com,

56:30

my newsletter that will also give you updates

56:32

on new Barn Raisers Project cohorts

56:35

that are going to be starting in the fall, barnraisersproject.org.

56:39

Would love to have you join some of those. They are free

56:41

on the front end and very, very fun. The

56:43

newsletters are fun to read too. And you'll

56:45

also find out there about my book coming

56:48

up next year. So it'd be great to connect.

56:50

Awesome. Thank you so much, Garrett. Thank

56:52

you so much.

56:58

Thanks so much for listening to Work Appropriate. We

57:00

are working on a bunch of exciting episodes right now

57:02

and we need your questions. We've

57:05

got one on actually following through

57:07

on DEI initiatives, one

57:10

on your toughest, weirdest

57:12

management questions. We're going to try

57:14

to stump Melissa Nightingale, who's been our guest

57:16

for our previous management editions.

57:19

We have another episode on problems from people

57:21

later in their careers. Think like late

57:24

40s, age 50 and up.

57:25

And then one on the nitty gritty of getting

57:28

a new job, like dealing with interview

57:30

anxiety, negotiating pay,

57:32

scoping out benefits.

57:34

Plus a really fun grab bag with

57:36

your pettiest or most philosophical

57:39

questions. Those are so many episodes.

57:41

We need so many questions. So head

57:43

to workappropriate.com to tell us your quandaries.

57:46

And just a general heads up that that link works best

57:49

on desktop. If you're using your phone, you

57:51

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57:54

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57:57

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57:59

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58:02

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58:06

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58:09

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58:12

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58:15

app of choice. It really helps. Work

58:17

Appropriate is a Crooked Media production. I'm

58:19

Anne Helen Peterson, your host. Our

58:22

executive producer is Kendra James. Melody

58:24

Rowell is our producer and editor. Allison

58:27

Falzetta is our development producer. Music

58:30

is composed by Chanel Critchlow. Additional

58:32

production support from Ari Schwartz. And

58:34

special thanks to Katie Long and Sarah Geismar.

58:38

Next week is a much-requested episode

58:40

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58:42

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58:44

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58:47

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58:49

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58:58

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