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4:05

it's Sophia. Welcome

4:08

to Work in

4:10

Progress. Hi friends

4:12

and listeners, I

4:15

am absolutely elated

4:17

today to be joined by

4:19

someone that I look up

4:22

to learn from and am

4:24

in awe of and honestly

4:26

who gives me So much

4:29

inspiration, such reminders to be

4:31

courageous, and also often helps

4:33

me give myself permission to

4:35

be a little more patient

4:38

with my life. Today's guest

4:40

is Dr. Tamah Bryant. She

4:42

is a psychologist, author, professor,

4:45

sacred artist, and minister, who

4:47

is leading the way in creating

4:49

healthy relationships, healing traumas, and overcoming

4:52

stress and depression, and she manages

4:54

to do it. with an energy

4:56

and a smile and a voice

4:59

that makes everyone around her take

5:01

a deep breath, lean in, and

5:03

feel seen. Dr. Tamah is the

5:06

author of the newly released book

5:08

Matters of the Heart, which aims

5:11

to empower readers to connect with

5:13

themselves and others, delving into topics

5:15

like control, issues, emotional and availability,

5:18

and relationships, both with others and

5:20

with ourselves. Her first book, Homecoming,

5:22

came out in 2022, and I

5:25

know so many of us needed

5:27

it, loved it, cherished it. This

5:29

book, Matters of the Heart, is

5:32

absolutely beautiful. It draws on the

5:34

wisdom of science and sacredness, lived

5:36

experience, and helps readers, tend to,

5:39

as Dr. Tamah calls it, the

5:41

Garden of their hearts. She encourages

5:43

us to build our best relational

5:46

lives because love is not a

5:48

level playing field and improving your

5:50

relationship with yourself. is the first

5:52

step in leveling the field and

5:55

living a life that brings you

5:57

joy. Let's dive in with Dr.

5:59

Tama. Dr.

6:10

Taylor, I'm just elated to

6:12

have you here. And I

6:15

sort of feel like my

6:17

favorite first question to ask

6:19

everyone goes a layer deeper

6:22

because today I get to

6:24

ask it of you. So

6:26

much of your research helps

6:29

us understand our connection to

6:31

ourselves. And when I sit

6:33

with someone like yourself who

6:36

has, you know, these lists

6:38

of accolades and incredible books

6:40

published and all of these

6:43

things. I'm always curious. If

6:45

you could bend the space-time

6:47

continuum and sit across from

6:50

yourself at eight or nine

6:52

years old, if you would

6:54

see the woman that you

6:57

are today in that little

6:59

girl, and I think I'm

7:01

particularly thrilled to hear your

7:04

answer because so much of

7:06

what you're doing in the

7:08

new book is helping us

7:11

understand how the... younger versions

7:13

of ourselves affect who we

7:15

are today. So all of

7:18

that said and no pressure,

7:20

but I can't wait to

7:22

hear how you would feel

7:25

with your nine-year-old self. Yes,

7:27

I love that question. And

7:29

to my nine-year-old self, I

7:32

would say something I commonly

7:34

say today to clients, to

7:36

mentees, to social media, and

7:39

that is you are worthy.

7:41

you are worthy, you are

7:43

worthy. There are so many

7:46

messages that bombard us from

7:48

very early on, especially as

7:50

girls and as women, to

7:53

feel insufficient, inadequate, to feel

7:55

that we have to be

7:57

something we are not, to

8:00

believe that we are not

8:02

enough. And so I would

8:04

say to the nine-year-old me,

8:07

you are more than enough,

8:09

you are worthy, and you

8:11

will align with people who

8:13

see you, so don't lose

8:16

sight of yourself. Yeah. Yeah.

8:18

And I do want to

8:20

say there are different domains

8:23

of self-esteem, different areas of

8:25

self-esteem. So academically, I was

8:27

an A student and felt

8:30

very good about that. And

8:32

then in terms of like

8:34

gifts or talents, I love

8:37

dancing and poetry and felt

8:39

very positive about that. But

8:41

then when we get to

8:44

the realities of sexism and

8:46

racism, they do a number

8:48

on the self-esteem. the body

8:51

image, the social esteem of

8:53

ourselves when you feel like

8:55

you are not chosen or

8:58

not sufficient. And so when

9:00

you've had those experiences, often

9:02

it can result in you

9:05

breadcrumming, accepting the minimum not

9:07

being aware that you're deserving

9:09

of the feast, even if

9:12

the feast has not yet

9:14

shown up. Yeah. That's

9:17

a big one. Right? The

9:19

idea that you are worthy

9:21

of being patient with your

9:23

life. Because there's a lot

9:26

of talk about, oh, you're

9:28

worthy of this, and how

9:30

can you love another person

9:32

if you don't love yourself?

9:34

And it all feels a

9:36

little bumper stickery to me.

9:38

Yes. And the notion that

9:40

you can be sure you

9:42

deserve something you haven't seen

9:44

yet seen yet. But you

9:46

know it exists because you've

9:48

certainly seen other people find

9:51

it. That's a kind of

9:53

nuance and a layered ability

9:55

to. Look at time differently

9:57

that I don't think we

9:59

are encouraged to focus on

10:01

especially as women and especially

10:03

in a capitalist world where

10:05

yes productivity is sort of

10:07

treated as Sacred yeah to

10:09

be and allow yourself this

10:11

space to be is kind

10:14

of a radical act of

10:16

self-acceptance it is it is

10:18

the basis of what's called

10:20

liberation psychology. So liberation psychology

10:22

requires that we pay attention

10:24

to contacts. When people are

10:26

ignoring context, they would say

10:28

the problem is just in

10:30

your mind. Like why don't

10:32

you love your body? Why

10:34

don't you love your face?

10:37

Why don't you love your

10:39

hair? As if you have

10:41

just created these thoughts in

10:43

the abstract as opposed to

10:45

the powerful messaging that gets

10:47

sent forward that says you

10:49

have to be something other

10:51

than what you are to

10:53

be love to be worthy

10:55

to be respected to be

10:57

appreciated and so when we

11:00

dismantle those and we speak

11:02

truth to the fact of

11:04

of course this is a

11:06

struggle for you because there

11:08

have been all of these

11:10

systems set up to make

11:12

you believe you So the

11:14

fact that you wrestle with

11:16

it is not like, oh,

11:18

you just need to love

11:20

you. It's a as you

11:23

name. It's a radical revolutionary

11:25

act of resistance for me

11:27

to push through all of

11:29

these messages and I still

11:31

choose me. I still celebrate

11:33

me. Yeah. And you've just

11:35

illuminated something for me. I

11:37

wonder, I would imagine you've

11:39

had this a lot because

11:41

you're such a profound speaker

11:43

and a profound writer and

11:46

such a top-tier academic that

11:48

you also have the research

11:50

to back up the poetry

11:52

that you often give to

11:54

the world. And many years

11:56

ago I was asked what

11:58

I would say to my

12:00

younger self. And what came

12:02

to me, and I didn't

12:04

realize how badly I needed

12:06

to hear it until I

12:09

said it out loud, was

12:11

worry less about being someone

12:13

else's definition of enough. You

12:15

already are. And I... consider

12:17

myself, you know, we talk

12:19

a lot about privilege in

12:21

the world and we have

12:23

to to begin to understand

12:25

as you're as you're referring

12:27

to these systems that treat

12:29

people differently. I consider myself

12:32

to have had the great

12:34

privilege of a lot of

12:36

exposure to a lot of

12:38

people who live different than

12:40

me and look like to

12:42

look different than me for

12:44

my whole life. And one

12:46

of the things in groups

12:48

of women that You

12:50

know we all do the

12:53

work with when I look

12:55

at women who look like

12:57

me who might be newer

12:59

To some of these spaces

13:01

I just say you know

13:04

how hard it is to

13:06

move through the world in

13:08

your body as a woman?

13:10

Imagine how hard it is

13:12

For my best friend Nia

13:15

for dr. Tamah who I

13:17

said with today for the

13:19

other women in our circles

13:21

that we know to move

13:23

through the world as women

13:26

and as black women or

13:28

brown women or South Asian

13:30

women like the piling on

13:32

of what you have to

13:34

squeeze through. You don't get

13:37

to be passing in any

13:39

way. You don't get to

13:41

take off your identity. And

13:43

it's why I think when

13:45

we have to ask people

13:48

to look deeper, even when

13:50

you talk about loving your

13:52

hair, you know, the idea

13:54

that there could be resistance

13:56

to the Crown Act, to

13:59

a law that says you

14:01

cannot discriminate against your employees.

14:03

for how they wear their

14:05

hair. Yes. People who haven't

14:08

experienced it don't realize it's

14:10

part of the menu of

14:12

microaggressions that you're being faced

14:14

with. every day. And so

14:16

I wish, and I think

14:19

part of the reason I

14:21

always cherish finding you in

14:23

the sphere of, you know,

14:25

what my algorithm serves to

14:27

me when I pick up

14:30

my phone, it always knows

14:32

I want to hear from

14:34

you, is that you're reminding

14:36

us all instead of competing

14:38

in the I'm more hurt

14:41

than you Olympics to say,

14:43

I know what hurt is.

14:45

How can I acknowledge my

14:47

own and how can I

14:49

be sensitive to the different

14:52

kinds of hurt that exist

14:54

in the people around me?

14:56

So maybe we can all

14:58

heal together. Yeah. And I

15:00

think it's a profound practice

15:03

for humans. And in a

15:05

moment like this, it's an

15:07

incredibly important awareness to carry

15:09

as we try to push

15:11

back against this pendulum swing

15:14

back into deep overt. cruel

15:16

systemic oppression. Yeah. So you're

15:18

doing heartwork, but you're doing

15:20

like nation-saving work as well.

15:22

Yes. Yeah, it really is

15:25

about recognizing how much our

15:27

liberation is intertwined. And when

15:29

we don't see that, we

15:31

treat it like a competition,

15:33

which then says, you have

15:36

to be erased so that

15:38

I can be seen. And

15:40

when people act like that,

15:42

then it is the misperception

15:44

that if you have a

15:47

month or you have a

15:49

day or you have a

15:51

speaker, that somehow that is

15:53

an attack on me. Instead

15:55

of, I love that phrase

15:58

of the sky is big

16:00

enough for all the stars

16:02

to shine. So there is

16:04

room. to talk about all

16:06

of our histories, which are

16:09

interwoven. There is a room

16:11

to talk about our literature,

16:13

our art, our beauty, our

16:15

contributions, our wisdom, our spiritualities.

16:17

There is space and so

16:20

it is that scarcity mindset

16:22

and agreed mindset that says

16:24

there will only be room

16:26

for one and that one

16:29

must be me. Yeah. It

16:31

strikes me because you are

16:33

able to hold all of

16:35

these things. You are a

16:37

professional at the dialectics. You

16:40

understand all of these things

16:42

can be true at the

16:44

same time. And to be

16:46

the... psychologists that you are,

16:48

and come from a deep

16:51

generational faith tradition in your

16:53

family to be both a

16:55

psychologist and a minister, so

16:57

many people assume that faith

16:59

and science are diametrically opposed

17:02

instead of actually when the

17:04

scope is widened, able to

17:06

hold and support one another?

17:08

How did you get here?

17:10

When did it click for

17:13

you entering into academia? or

17:15

as a young student that

17:17

you wanted to carry both

17:19

of these worlds together. Yeah.

17:21

It feels more true, more

17:24

real, more authentic to me

17:26

instead of what we would

17:28

call the false dichotomy, right?

17:30

Which one are you? Do

17:32

you appreciate science or are

17:35

you a spiritual person? And

17:37

it's who said I had

17:39

to choose because if I'm

17:41

a spiritual person, then I

17:43

understand the lessons that are

17:46

encoded in nature. And if

17:48

I sit and appreciate the

17:50

observations, then I understand the

17:52

sacred can work through my

17:54

being as a psychologist, that

17:57

it's not either or like,

17:59

are you gonna pray or

18:01

go to therapy? You can

18:03

pray or go to therapy.

18:05

You can pray or go

18:08

to therapy. So rejecting and

18:10

resisting. these false choices. And

18:12

I would say, you know,

18:14

a part of that is

18:16

from an afrocentric perspective is

18:19

fundamentally being holistic. And so

18:21

if we're holistic, then we

18:23

honor the mind, the body,

18:25

the heart, the spirit, the

18:27

community. And I used to

18:30

live these kind of separate

18:32

selves. So when I was

18:34

with my spiritual friends, then

18:36

that's what I would talk

18:38

about when I was with

18:41

my artsy friends, then we

18:43

talk about dance and poetry,

18:45

when I was with my

18:47

academic folks, we would talk

18:50

about the latest articles, and

18:52

I will say, I did

18:54

not maximize my possibility until

18:56

I started integrating those multiple

18:58

cells and when I did

19:01

that and showed up as

19:03

my authentic self it freed

19:05

and liberated and gave other

19:07

people permission to say me

19:09

too. So for example I

19:12

was a past president for

19:14

the Society of Women and

19:16

you know a big part

19:18

of that work is around

19:20

feminist psychology. And so when

19:23

you're president, we have a

19:25

budget and you can set

19:27

different initiatives, and one of

19:29

the initiatives that I did

19:31

was on women's psychology, spirituality,

19:34

religion, and faith. And before

19:36

I did that initiative, there

19:38

was kind of this unspoken

19:40

rule that feminists would be

19:42

against any kind of religious

19:45

tradition because of patriarchy and

19:47

the oppression of women and

19:49

violence against women. And so

19:51

when I announced the initiative,

19:53

we had like a break

19:56

in the board meeting and

19:58

a number of board members

20:00

came up to me and

20:02

were whispering saying, I'm a

20:04

Piscopalian, right? I'm Catholic, I'm

20:07

Jewish, and it's like, why?

20:09

Why are we whispering? It

20:11

is believing the falsehood that

20:13

in order for my politic

20:15

to be important to me,

20:18

I had to have surrendered

20:20

my fate. And it's just

20:22

not true. And so it's

20:24

been beautiful to be a

20:26

bridge, to create spaces and

20:29

hold spaces where we can

20:31

be our totality. the fullness

20:33

of we are, and not

20:35

have to leave parts of

20:37

ourselves in the margins. Yeah.

20:40

Well, and what strikes me

20:42

as so important about beginning

20:44

to unify spaces like that

20:46

again. is it actually gives

20:48

room for them not only

20:51

to evolve, but to reclaim

20:53

their full selves. Yes. You

20:55

know, I grew up in

20:57

a family full of Catholics,

20:59

Jews, and atheists. So our

21:02

holiday dinners are wild, as

21:04

you can imagine. You know,

21:06

by the time I got

21:08

to college, I'd already spent,

21:11

you know, time taking college

21:13

courses on Islamic studies. I

21:15

really wanted to understand, you

21:17

know, how are all these

21:19

faith traditions so intertwined? And

21:22

for me... It's never lost

21:24

on me that when the

21:26

faith tradition, whatever religion it

21:28

is, also becomes a business

21:30

and there's profit to be

21:33

made, then the faith tradition

21:35

becomes more patriarchal, women are

21:37

cut out of leadership, often

21:39

cut out of text, and

21:41

the energy changes. And so

21:44

to your point about an

21:46

afrocentric methodology of being, to

21:48

become more holistically feministically feminist.

21:50

more holistically community-centered, more holistically

21:52

devout in fill in the

21:55

blank faith, you actually become

21:57

more inclusive. Yes. Yes. And

21:59

it's like, it's like we've

22:01

gotten stuck in our human

22:03

experience. down here in the

22:06

weeds and we're forgetting that

22:08

there's a whole, you know,

22:10

canopy, right, that we're meant

22:12

to understand and navigate together.

22:14

Yeah, so that reclamation, the

22:17

decolonization, the deconstruction, you know,

22:19

what are the lies, the

22:21

myths? that we were presented

22:23

with as truth and as

22:25

absolute and to give ourselves

22:28

space to interrogate that and

22:30

to mean it's not that

22:32

I have to throw away

22:34

the whole thing I throw

22:36

away the version of it

22:39

that was given to me

22:41

that dishonored me yeah I

22:43

tapped into there are a

22:45

whole tradition of people before

22:47

me who were committed to

22:50

liberation theology, what frees us,

22:52

what lifts us, what actually

22:54

allows me to enter into

22:56

spaces and feel loved there

22:58

and feel seen there. And

23:01

if I have never entered

23:03

into such a space, how

23:05

do I create that? To

23:07

create sacred space, we would

23:09

say, even on your podcast,

23:12

right? And this can be

23:14

holy ground. This can be

23:16

sanctuary. And we are deserving

23:18

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28:30

idea it's a big topic right

28:32

how to how to Unify the

28:34

world make people treat

28:36

each other more holistically

28:39

less competitively We would be

28:41

remiss not to Put it in

28:43

the context of what's currently

28:45

happening in our country

28:47

you know this this

28:49

Backswing as we were

28:52

discussing earlier into this,

28:54

you know, very right-wing

28:56

discriminatory fascism and everything

28:58

you're saying perfectly

29:01

fits over the scope of

29:03

the world, but also of

29:05

the internal world of one, of

29:08

an individual. And

29:10

I think in periods

29:12

like this, where the

29:14

world at large feels

29:16

so traumatizing to so

29:18

many people, people are

29:20

trying to manage stress,

29:22

they are absolutely overwhelmed.

29:24

It's chronic. How do

29:27

you begin to give... Whether

29:29

it's like you said your

29:31

mentees or clients or folks

29:33

who you talk to online,

29:35

how do you help people get

29:37

to the tip of the spear?

29:40

Put that first poke in the

29:42

veil and start to see what's

29:44

on the other side. Where do

29:46

you tell folks to begin?

29:48

Yeah, such an important question,

29:51

especially in the times we

29:53

are living in, it's necessary.

29:55

And so I use the

29:58

term homecoming to. to myself

30:00

is to tell myself the

30:03

truth. And when I tell

30:05

myself the truth, I don't

30:07

have to censor, judge, or

30:09

apologize for what I feel.

30:12

And so with that in

30:14

mind, for those who see

30:16

the landscape and are exhausted.

30:19

That makes sense. Speak that.

30:21

This is exhausting. For those

30:23

who are disappointed, for those

30:25

who are outraged, you know,

30:28

sometimes people present this notion

30:30

that to have to be

30:32

mentally or spiritually well, like

30:35

you're just in this place

30:37

of not being moved by

30:39

anything, there's some outrageous things

30:41

happening. So a healthy response

30:44

is actually outraged. It means

30:46

that I recognize that things

30:48

are out of order. that

30:51

people are being dishonored, that

30:53

people are being dehumanized. And

30:55

so, you know, I would

30:57

start with, allow yourself to

31:00

feel it, tell yourself and

31:02

those within your circle who

31:04

you trust. what is stirred

31:07

up for you in this

31:09

season. Because what we often

31:11

do, and this is, again,

31:13

you know, from this capitalist

31:16

notion of like, I have

31:18

to be on and perform

31:20

and because I'm measured by

31:22

my labor, is then we

31:25

pretend, how are you, I'm

31:27

fine, and you, I'm fine.

31:29

So we shake that up,

31:32

we disrupt that by how

31:34

are you, I'm mad. How

31:36

are you? I'm disappointed. How

31:38

are you? I'm tired. How

31:41

are you? I'm confused about

31:43

the way forward. Oh, you

31:45

too? Yeah, I'm trying to

31:48

figure it out too. So

31:50

our truth sets us free

31:52

and that also allows us

31:54

to mobilize because you cannot

31:57

respond to something you do

31:59

not acknowledge. And then it's

32:01

for us to step out.

32:04

of the silos of only

32:06

fighting for my small group.

32:08

Because as long as we

32:10

are divided and see each

32:13

other as enemy or competition,

32:15

then we are disempowered. But

32:17

you know, successful movements happen

32:20

when they are intergenerational, when

32:22

they are intercultural, when people

32:24

show up from all over,

32:26

all over the place and

32:29

the ways in which things

32:31

are moving. tap into that

32:33

necessity. Can I see your

32:36

struggle and see mine? Versus

32:38

what has happened is people

32:40

thought, some people thought that

32:42

this would not affect them,

32:45

so they were comfortable with

32:47

it. It's like, oh, if

32:49

it's only going to affect

32:52

the undocumented, I'm okay. Or

32:54

if it's only going to

32:56

affect LGBTQ, I'm okay. And

32:58

so then as it continues

33:01

to roll out and get

33:03

closer to people's front door,

33:05

then it's like, oh, wait,

33:08

what are we going to

33:10

do about this? Yeah, what

33:12

are we going to do

33:14

about this? Do you think

33:17

that? And I ask because

33:19

I don't think it's easy

33:21

to find people who would

33:24

readily say, oh, I assumed

33:26

this would just affect these

33:28

people. But do you think

33:30

the human... I don't want

33:33

to say tendency, but perhaps

33:35

frequent human pattern of, oh,

33:37

if it's just happening over

33:40

there, then me and mine

33:42

are all right. Do you

33:44

think that comes from the

33:46

kind of generational truth that

33:49

we carry that humanity has

33:51

come with such violence and

33:53

such cruelty and such terror

33:56

as it has also innovated

33:58

and created and done beautiful

34:00

things in the world? Do

34:02

you think humans have an

34:05

inherent fear that can be?

34:07

so powerful that they can

34:09

run from collective reality? I

34:12

think instead of it being

34:14

inherent, I actually think it's

34:16

taught, and that people are

34:18

taught that these people, whichever

34:21

however we want to label

34:23

them, are the problem, that

34:25

they're the reason you're not

34:28

succeeding, that they're the ones

34:30

that are taking your jobs,

34:32

that they're the ones that

34:34

are ruining our neighborhood. And

34:37

so it is, it is

34:39

taught, and then it is

34:41

repeated. And so the excuse

34:43

people will give, they won't

34:46

say, I don't care about

34:48

them, they'll say, this is

34:50

going to be good for

34:53

the economy. Right, they'll say

34:55

that, you know, I'm making

34:57

a financial decision. And so

34:59

this is going to be,

35:02

and then like, oh, well,

35:04

the price of eggs, well,

35:06

the price of bread, well,

35:09

the employment, you know, but

35:11

what people have to wrestle

35:13

with is actually none of

35:15

what is being done was

35:18

a secret or hidden. It

35:20

was announced. And so people

35:22

were fine with it. They

35:25

were fine with it. They

35:27

were fine with the agenda

35:29

because they thought, I'm going

35:31

to get rich and we're

35:34

going to get rid of

35:36

all the bad people. And

35:38

you know, it has been,

35:41

I'm saying, maybe throughout our

35:43

history, our societal history of

35:45

convincing impoverished and middle-income people

35:47

that they will benefit the

35:50

more wealthy people are happy

35:52

because as long as you

35:54

can see someone is beneath

35:57

you, then you're going to

35:59

do great. And it is

36:01

a historical lesson that people

36:03

have to continue to learn

36:06

that some people who claim

36:08

to be for me are

36:10

not for me. And some

36:13

people who have been presented

36:15

to me as my enemies

36:17

are actually my greatest potential

36:19

allies. Yeah, some of the

36:22

studies confuse me. I remember,

36:24

you know, the guys, the

36:26

ruse of economic anxiety, and

36:29

we all know what that

36:31

is, as you've just so

36:33

eloquently explained. There was a,

36:35

maybe it was around the

36:38

midterms, a study that came

36:40

out talking about how they

36:42

would give these examples to

36:45

people and say, well, you

36:47

and all your coworkers can

36:49

make $80,000 a year. You

36:51

can make $100,000 a year,

36:54

but those four guys on

36:56

your team are actually going

36:58

to make $120. Because they're

37:01

technically doing things in the

37:03

office that are more management

37:05

level than you. But, you

37:07

know, $20,000 raise for you

37:10

and $40,000 raise for them.

37:12

And most people said, no,

37:14

we should all make 80.

37:17

Even though that gave them

37:19

less. And I was fascinated.

37:21

Why do we want to

37:23

compete instead of all continue

37:26

to succeed? Why do you

37:28

want to hold yourself and

37:30

your and your co-worker back

37:33

instead of watch them soar

37:35

and then earn your way

37:37

into soaring? And when we

37:39

start to look at all

37:42

this, you know, the need

37:44

to withhold from others is

37:46

often the root of what

37:49

hurts us. And We see

37:51

it happening in this wide

37:53

landscape and what happens without

37:55

is reflected within and what

37:58

One of the things that

38:00

gave me this moment of,

38:02

I kind of gasped when

38:04

I read it to be honest when

38:07

I started the book and I'm

38:09

going to just like do the

38:11

thing on the podcast and hold

38:13

up this beautiful book that you've

38:15

given to us. Because a lot

38:17

of people I think struggle with

38:19

having to learn or you should know

38:21

this by now and then they have

38:23

shame if they don't so then they

38:26

don't want to learn anything about it.

38:28

And we see it a lot in the

38:30

world of trying to teach

38:32

generational lessons and

38:34

social justice in our

38:37

history, especially as they're

38:39

banning books. And when

38:41

I picked up your book to

38:43

get ready for today, I gasped

38:45

really early when you said, if

38:48

you want to read this book

38:50

in the order of chapters that

38:52

call to you, go ahead. I just

38:54

ask that you do read all of

38:56

it. Never have I ever

38:59

had a teacher at any level

39:01

of my personal or my academic

39:03

life tell me I could read

39:05

the syllabus out of order. And

39:07

I was like, oh, I have

39:09

a 42 year old woman and

39:11

I was like, I just got

39:13

a permission slip to break the

39:15

rules. And it really, it gave

39:18

me joy that made me laugh

39:20

in my kitchen. And then I

39:22

went, wait a second. What if we

39:24

did this more for each other? out in

39:26

the world and said you might know this

39:28

but you might not know that and here's

39:31

just a thing I think you might want

39:33

to know right come to this at your

39:35

own pace come to this in your own

39:37

time how do how did you get there

39:39

being as wise as you are about

39:42

all of it and the generations of all

39:44

of it and the connections of all

39:46

of it and why people say what

39:48

they do because they don't really want

39:50

to say what they think and where

39:52

the fear comes from and I mean

39:54

it's The systems are big

39:56

and you manage to

39:58

give a war. of permission for

40:01

everyone of one person who

40:03

wants to grow with you?

40:05

How did you figure out

40:07

how to do that? And

40:09

was it that notion of

40:11

homecoming that opened it for

40:13

you? Yeah. It is, thank

40:15

you first of all for

40:17

that example. And I would

40:19

say a part of what,

40:21

you know, I approached the

40:23

writing as a. as a

40:25

clinician or as a healer

40:27

and recognizing if someone looks

40:29

in that table of contents

40:31

and it's about you know

40:33

a chapter in the back

40:35

on healing after infidelity and

40:38

they just been cheated on

40:40

like they want to get

40:42

there they can't even hear

40:44

the rest right or how

40:46

to let go of someone

40:48

who doesn't love you like

40:50

that's in the forefront of

40:52

your heart your mind your

40:54

spirit And a part of,

40:56

you know, liberation work or

40:58

womanist or feminist work is

41:00

acknowledging the wisdom of the

41:02

people around the table. So

41:04

like that other approach is

41:06

to assume I know everything

41:08

and you know nothing and

41:10

so I'm going to instruct

41:12

you. But instead, right, for,

41:14

you know, and that's not

41:16

empowering. The empowerment is tap

41:19

into your inner wisdom. tap

41:21

into what you know. You

41:23

know, what you need right

41:25

now. Trust yourself with what

41:27

you need right now. And

41:29

once you get what you

41:31

urgently need, know that the

41:33

rest of it is there

41:35

for you and can serve

41:37

you. And one of the

41:39

ways that I learned the

41:41

importance of predictions, you know,

41:43

sharing with people predictions, is

41:45

in therapy. As a trauma

41:47

psychologist, if people come in

41:49

to therapy, And in the

41:51

moment they feel inspired or

41:53

they feel safe and they

41:55

share something very personal or

41:57

very vulnerable, it is a

41:59

chance that in the moment

42:02

it felt good, but afterwards

42:04

they're going to replay the

42:06

moment and say to themselves,

42:08

like I said too much

42:10

or what is Dr. Tamer

42:12

think of me or I'm

42:14

not going back now, I'm

42:16

embarrassed. And so at the

42:18

end of a session where

42:20

people have really revealed themselves,

42:22

I'll give them that prediction

42:24

and say to them, I'm

42:26

so glad what you shared

42:28

today. And at some point

42:30

this week, you're likely going

42:32

to think, I don't know

42:34

if I want to go

42:36

back. And I invite you

42:38

to push past that and

42:40

show up anyway. And if

42:43

next week you don't want

42:45

to talk about what you

42:47

just said, you can say

42:49

that. And we'll talk about

42:51

something else. So then people

42:53

will come the next time

42:55

and say, You know, you

42:57

were right. I was thinking

42:59

about not coming, but I

43:01

remember what you said. And

43:03

so for us to walk

43:05

in our mutual, like we

43:07

get to co-create it together

43:09

and we get to honor

43:11

and discover that we do

43:13

know some things about ourselves.

43:15

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about the PayPal debit card. One

48:01

of the things I appreciate about

48:03

the example you've just given is

48:05

that it's kind of a meditation

48:08

on patience. Again, not just give

48:10

yourself permission to be patient for

48:12

life to show up for you,

48:14

but also give yourself permission to

48:17

have a burst of observation and

48:19

then need some time. Need some

48:21

time to go on your morning

48:23

walk and let it reverberate around

48:26

in your body and talk about

48:28

something else. and then come back

48:30

to it when your body and

48:32

spirit have digested it. Right. You

48:35

know, there's a, there's a weird

48:37

byproduct for all the great things

48:39

that I think, you know, the

48:41

internet has given to us. It

48:44

gave you to me as a,

48:46

as a viewer, when I first

48:48

found you, for example, one of

48:51

the things I fear it's done,

48:53

and I just had a conversation

48:55

with another artist about this recently.

48:59

Now you can't do anything

49:01

without it feeling or likely

49:03

being recorded. You don't have

49:06

time to discuss something, think

49:08

about it, read an article,

49:10

read a book, mature your

49:12

opinion, and then talk about

49:15

it again. One video clip,

49:17

one click bait, one bad

49:19

rehearsal for a performing artist

49:22

of a song, one, and

49:24

it blows up your life.

49:26

And sometimes I worry that.

49:28

People are missing the ability

49:31

to be vulnerable, grow, and

49:33

then return as fuller versions

49:35

of themselves. Yeah. Yeah. That

49:38

is such a good point

49:40

of being, accepting being called

49:42

in, right? Accepting and appreciating

49:44

growing pains. What I like

49:47

to say is when we

49:49

get it wrong, and someone

49:51

shares it with us. Like

49:54

they could have not said

49:56

it and then we continue.

49:58

you on our way, not

50:00

knowing that something was harmful

50:03

or offensive or inaccurate. And

50:05

so we want to always

50:07

be teachable, you know, and

50:10

to have that cultural humility.

50:12

You know, because now what

50:14

they're trying to do is

50:16

say, if you make the

50:19

majority uncomfortable, you have now

50:21

done something illegal. And it's

50:23

like, discomfort is illegal, right?

50:26

It will be uncomfortable. to

50:28

learn what you had not

50:30

been told. It is uncomfortable,

50:32

but you wrestle with that

50:35

and can grow from it.

50:37

The other thing that I

50:39

think is important about us

50:42

giving ourselves permission to honor

50:44

where we are in the

50:46

process is it also is

50:49

teaching us sovereignty and empowerment

50:51

in order to have boundaries.

50:53

Right? When I have to

50:55

just obey, then it requires

50:58

no awareness on my part.

51:00

But when I have to,

51:02

as you name, like take,

51:05

I like to call it

51:07

sacred pause. Let me pause

51:09

and consider what do I

51:11

think? What do I feel?

51:14

What do I want to

51:16

say? And I like to

51:18

use the phrase, the holiness

51:21

of no, because for women

51:23

or religious people or trauma

51:25

survivors, we are often talked

51:27

out of our no and

51:30

we're in that people-pleasing mode

51:32

of what do people want

51:34

me to be, but it's

51:37

not authentic. Though instead I

51:39

get to embrace the holiness

51:41

of no, that's not where

51:43

I am right now or

51:46

no, I don't have the

51:48

capacity for that or just

51:50

no, I choose not to.

51:53

And so to give ourselves

51:55

permission. to grow, to change,

51:57

to shift. That's. that's the

51:59

way we heal. Yeah. And

52:02

I love that you relate it to

52:04

learning about your impact in

52:06

the world, sometimes hopefully for

52:09

good, and sometimes where you don't

52:11

mean it to be negative for

52:13

others, and also this idea of

52:15

even how we move through the

52:17

kind of staircase of our own

52:19

experience and reflection. You

52:22

know, I've had the version of

52:24

what you just talked about with

52:26

my own therapist, with my own

52:28

therapist. We get to the root

52:31

of something really hard that happened

52:33

and I want to talk about

52:35

it. It's time to talk about it

52:37

and the next week I'm like I

52:39

need 15 minutes of talking about something

52:41

else. Yes. Okay and where I am

52:43

about that is yeah now I've thought

52:45

about it every day for seven days

52:47

and I'm mad all over again and

52:49

I'm mad at the person who was

52:52

in the room and watched it happen

52:54

and didn't say anything and I'm mad

52:56

and and you have to go through

52:58

these things, but you're right.

53:00

The expectation that you can

53:03

just show up and be

53:05

ready for anything at

53:07

any time, it is a, that

53:09

is a boundaryless

53:11

society. That is a

53:14

behavior that is lacking

53:16

respect for another person's

53:19

process. And I think the

53:21

more we can talk about it,

53:23

you know, how to just expand

53:26

what you can hold. including

53:29

for others. Like, imagine what

53:31

a more gentle world it

53:33

would be. When you went through

53:35

working on the book, because

53:37

one of the things that I love

53:39

about this, you know, you've coached

53:42

so many of us,

53:44

whether personally or digitally

53:46

in community, on, you know, resilience,

53:49

on the sacred pause,

53:51

on expansion, and a lot

53:53

of what you talk about

53:55

in matters of the

53:58

heart. is relationship. And

54:00

it's relationship to your partner

54:02

to your family to yourself.

54:05

Yes. Is there a reason

54:07

that you chose to use

54:09

relationship as the container because

54:12

it feels as a reader

54:14

like it was very much

54:16

on purpose and it's not

54:19

just because people are in

54:21

relationships with each other. Right.

54:23

Yes, it is the biggest

54:26

question and most frequent challenge.

54:28

that people show up with

54:30

and it's also a big

54:33

predictor for our well-being. So

54:35

when you feel well-loved, well-care

54:37

for, when you have that

54:40

sense of belonging, That can

54:42

be a protective factor against

54:44

depression, against anxiety, against addiction,

54:47

dealing with big life transitions.

54:49

It's like I'm moving cross-country,

54:51

but I'm calling my friends,

54:53

right? So that can help

54:56

us and at the same

54:58

time, heartbreak. can be devastating

55:00

and have a ripple effect

55:03

in the other areas of

55:05

our lives. People can be

55:07

very successful, let's say academically

55:10

or professionally, and then if

55:12

the partnership is in ruins

55:14

or the friendship ends, it

55:17

can disrupt everything. It can

55:19

take our sleep, take our

55:21

appetite, take our self-esteem, and

55:24

so it is very important

55:26

both. in terms of thriving

55:28

and recovering from the difficulties

55:31

of life. And in the

55:33

book you talk a lot

55:35

about emotional unavailability. How do

55:38

you identify if you are

55:40

emotionally unavailable or if, as

55:42

you referenced earlier, you have

55:45

to let go of someone

55:47

who maybe does not? love

55:49

you in the way they

55:52

said they did, that feels

55:54

like an emotional unavailability or

55:56

maybe better categorized as a

55:59

dishonesty. I'll let you decide,

56:01

but how do you, how

56:03

do you find kind of

56:06

the root of that problem?

56:08

Yeah. So, you know, with

56:10

ourselves, we kind of check

56:13

in, check ourselves to see

56:15

how real, how authentic, how

56:17

authentic, how in my relationships

56:20

and in my friendships. Some

56:22

of us can show up

56:24

for other people when we're

56:27

feeling strong, when we're feeling

56:29

shiny, when we're feeling successful,

56:31

and then when we're feeling

56:34

challenged, we disappear, right? So

56:36

if you ask yourself, when

56:38

I'm struggling, do I reach

56:41

out to my circle and

56:43

let people support me? Or

56:45

do I isolate because I

56:48

only believe people can see

56:50

me when I'm at my

56:52

best? That kind of emotional

56:55

one note is emotional unavailability,

56:57

that I can't be open

56:59

to the full spectrum of

57:02

my feelings in the presence

57:04

of another, right? So it's

57:06

one thing if I say,

57:09

oh, you know, my coworkers

57:11

or people I don't know

57:13

well or strangers on the

57:16

street, sure, with them, I

57:18

could do public relations of

57:20

how's your day, how's your

57:23

day, how great, how's yours,

57:25

how's yours, But am I

57:27

talking to my family and

57:30

friends and partner that way?

57:32

So you want to ask

57:34

yourself your level of honesty,

57:37

which is our level of

57:39

intimacy in terms of these

57:41

relationships. And we also want

57:44

to think about the ways

57:46

we may sabotage connections or

57:48

our discomfort with being seen.

57:51

How does it feel to

57:53

me? when people are actually

57:55

paying attention, right? When they...

57:58

observe things about me that

58:00

I'm not used to people

58:02

seeing, right? And then in

58:05

terms of in relationship, accepting

58:07

when people's actions either don't

58:09

match their words or when

58:12

their actions don't match my

58:14

fantasy. Because sometimes it's not

58:16

even their words. Sometimes they

58:19

never said anything. But you

58:21

know, we created this picture

58:23

of like, oh, we're going

58:26

to either be besties or

58:28

this is going to be

58:30

my partner. And they're, they're

58:33

not on board with that.

58:35

So everybody in the relationship

58:37

has to know they're in

58:40

it. It can't just be

58:42

one-sided. Right. Right. And now

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details. I guess everybody

1:03:35

also has a point where

1:03:37

some of those things click

1:03:39

in, right? For whatever reason,

1:03:41

it really makes me

1:03:44

think about the dissolution

1:03:46

of my... Last relationship which

1:03:48

you know to add insult to

1:03:50

injury was out in the world

1:03:53

Which is never an easy way to

1:03:55

process something, but you know kind of

1:03:57

comes with the job. Yeah, the the thing

1:04:00

that I was so profound for

1:04:02

me, especially as a woman, knowing

1:04:04

how so many of us have

1:04:06

been taught to be good and

1:04:09

to smile and to serve others

1:04:11

and take care of everyone else

1:04:13

in the room and do all

1:04:16

of the things, be a good

1:04:18

soldier, be a good leader on

1:04:20

set, be a good daughter, be

1:04:22

whatever. The thing that finally

1:04:24

made me stop saying... Well,

1:04:26

maybe if I compromised more, maybe

1:04:28

if my job were less difficult,

1:04:31

maybe if I, maybe if I,

1:04:33

maybe if I, and made me

1:04:35

go, wait a second, what about,

1:04:37

what's supposed to be for me

1:04:39

instead of what I'm supposed to

1:04:41

do for? Yes, yes. And the

1:04:44

aha moment for me was being

1:04:46

on the precipice of becoming

1:04:48

a mom and going, oh,

1:04:50

every single thing I have

1:04:52

accepted for myself, I would never

1:04:54

ever ever ever. except

1:04:56

for my child. I would

1:04:58

never ever, I would never

1:05:01

tell my best friend to

1:05:03

compromise more. I would

1:05:05

say to her, you're

1:05:08

being asked to compromise

1:05:10

yourself, not to compromise

1:05:12

with another. And there

1:05:15

was something about

1:05:17

realizing, oh, I have gone

1:05:19

through the spectrum of,

1:05:21

you know, in small ways

1:05:24

to unacceptable big ways.

1:05:26

I have always kind

1:05:28

of compromised myself. And I

1:05:30

thought I learned how to not

1:05:32

do that, you know, seven years

1:05:35

ago. And here I am realizing

1:05:37

I'm still doing it. And it

1:05:39

looks good on the outside. And

1:05:42

it's all smoke and mirrors. And

1:05:44

it was this kind of

1:05:46

revelatory. I sort of felt

1:05:49

like... or for 30 people, and then

1:05:51

serving yourself the scraps as the 30th

1:05:53

person to play air food, you cook

1:05:55

the food, you make your fucking plate

1:05:58

first. You eat first. Right, right. But

1:06:00

it took me for decades

1:06:02

to feel that I deserved

1:06:04

that. And that is when

1:06:06

I feel to what you

1:06:08

were saying earlier, that's when

1:06:11

I feel like my life

1:06:13

arrived for me. And I was

1:06:15

like, oh, okay, it's just been

1:06:18

a slow burn. Yes. But it's

1:06:20

here. I love that

1:06:22

testimony. And it's also

1:06:24

deeply understandable

1:06:26

because we get

1:06:28

celebrated for erasing ourselves.

1:06:31

You know, people will hold you up

1:06:33

and say, you're a good partner,

1:06:36

you're a good friend, you have

1:06:38

no needs. You have no needs.

1:06:40

You're so selfless. Yes, yes, it

1:06:42

gets celebrated and so of course

1:06:44

you lived like that, right? And

1:06:47

I think that's the part to

1:06:49

take in because if not we

1:06:51

can beat ourselves up about, oh

1:06:53

my God, why did I do

1:06:55

this for decades? because it was

1:06:58

taught and reinforced and it

1:07:00

was modeled and celebrated that

1:07:02

this is what you, because nobody

1:07:04

wants to be a selfish woman,

1:07:06

right? And so then when you're like,

1:07:09

wait a minute, we're getting the

1:07:11

bad end of the stick here.

1:07:13

I'm supposed this should be mutual. This

1:07:15

should be reciprocal. I should be, you

1:07:17

know, what I like to say is,

1:07:20

if you make them your priority

1:07:22

and they make themselves their

1:07:24

priority, Who's looking out for

1:07:27

you? Right? So I can only be

1:07:29

selfless in the presence of someone

1:07:31

else who is selfless. And then

1:07:33

we are mutually nourishing each other.

1:07:36

Yeah. Yes. Well, and you're saying

1:07:38

something that I think gets

1:07:40

missed in this self-love discourse.

1:07:42

Love yourself first before you

1:07:44

can love another. We talked about

1:07:47

it earlier. There's this, I've seen backlash,

1:07:49

you know, both for some of what

1:07:51

I've shared. I see it with. Chelsea

1:07:53

handler talking about choosing herself in a

1:07:56

relationship that wasn't good. I see it.

1:07:58

It's on the internet a lot. like,

1:08:00

oh, happiness isn't the

1:08:02

metric and how selfish

1:08:04

that you and etc.,

1:08:06

etc. No, my core, I'm

1:08:08

still the person who likes to

1:08:11

cook for everybody. But

1:08:13

I can't be the only one

1:08:15

who does it. Yes. I actually

1:08:17

can be more selfless in

1:08:19

a reciprocal relationship than

1:08:21

I could ever be

1:08:23

in one where I

1:08:26

was expected to do all

1:08:28

and be all and be in

1:08:30

a weird way, the more you're

1:08:32

able to say, oh, I deserve,

1:08:34

I will also take for myself,

1:08:36

the more you can give to

1:08:38

another, is that right? Yes, yeah.

1:08:40

And then it doesn't get

1:08:42

set up as you're

1:08:45

dishonoring or robbing the

1:08:47

other person or the

1:08:49

relationship is that we want each

1:08:51

other to be well. And so

1:08:53

things that make you well,

1:08:55

right? But it is interesting

1:08:58

as you name. people getting

1:09:00

angry at women for wanting

1:09:02

to be happy. And

1:09:04

including messages from other

1:09:07

women who have chosen

1:09:09

misery and perseverance over

1:09:12

their own joy. And so then

1:09:14

they are outraged at how dare

1:09:17

you walk away and choose joy

1:09:19

because for them it never felt

1:09:21

like an option. Yes, I

1:09:24

need you to say that again.

1:09:26

Yeah. Women particularly. Yes. Negative elements

1:09:28

of the patriarchy, right? Yes. Get

1:09:31

enraged when other women choose joy

1:09:33

when other women get free. Yes,

1:09:36

yes. It's like, how dare you

1:09:38

do that? I didn't know we

1:09:40

could do that. I don't think

1:09:43

I can do that. Doing that

1:09:45

must be bad in order for

1:09:48

me to feel good about

1:09:50

myself. And so for us not

1:09:52

to. Judge each other like if

1:09:54

someone chooses to stay in

1:09:57

an unhappy circumstance

1:09:59

because their values

1:10:01

tell them loyalty is

1:10:04

more important than happiness,

1:10:06

that's your choice. That's

1:10:09

your choice. That's your choice.

1:10:11

And for those who choose to

1:10:14

say, my mental health

1:10:16

is more important than

1:10:18

being loyal to something

1:10:20

that's killing me, that's

1:10:22

the choice. For me, the thing

1:10:24

that I heard myself say to

1:10:27

a friend. That then

1:10:29

I couldn't stop saying

1:10:32

was everybody says life's

1:10:34

too short, but I'm

1:10:36

realizing life is way too

1:10:38

long to do this. Uh-huh. It's

1:10:40

just too long to be

1:10:42

in so much pain and

1:10:45

unfulfillment and one of

1:10:47

the important I think

1:10:49

distinctions for people is it's

1:10:51

not that I can't do

1:10:53

it is that I choose

1:10:56

not to. I could just keep

1:10:58

making all the dinners, right?

1:11:00

I could keep doing all

1:11:02

of that, but I am

1:11:04

gonna make another choice because

1:11:06

I have many more years

1:11:08

and many more seasons. And

1:11:10

here's the other thing that

1:11:12

I think people don't

1:11:14

get. It actually sets

1:11:17

both people free. Right? Somebody

1:11:19

is gonna be. happy with

1:11:21

that other person, like and

1:11:24

not considerate suffering or perseverance.

1:11:26

So let them be free

1:11:28

to find their person, let

1:11:30

you be free to find

1:11:33

yours or to create the

1:11:35

life that you want, that,

1:11:37

you know, it's that scarcity

1:11:39

mindset that like we are

1:11:42

all we could ever have.

1:11:44

And so we have to

1:11:46

cling to it even though it

1:11:49

is joyless. Yeah. But

1:11:51

to say, I know I deserve more

1:11:53

than this scarcity. It's

1:11:55

kind of like jumping

1:11:57

without seeing the net.

1:11:59

Yes. beneath you. It is

1:12:01

terrifying. You know, thank God

1:12:04

for hindsight, because we always say,

1:12:06

you know, it's 2020. I can

1:12:08

see the terror and the courage

1:12:11

that it took for me and

1:12:13

so many people I know who

1:12:15

were going through it at the

1:12:18

same time and friends who

1:12:20

were going through it now. How

1:12:22

do you think we can tap

1:12:24

into our courage, our knowing

1:12:26

that there will be a net?

1:12:28

when we are so afraid because

1:12:31

to your point so many

1:12:33

people choose the pain they

1:12:35

know instead of the unknown

1:12:37

which could be joy right so

1:12:39

there must be something we have

1:12:41

to shift right right right so

1:12:44

a part of it is I

1:12:46

call it a faith walk especially

1:12:48

if you've never been

1:12:51

treated wonderfully well You've

1:12:53

seen other people, like I know

1:12:56

it exists in the world, but

1:12:58

has it existed for me, then

1:13:00

for a lot of people they

1:13:02

would say no, like this is

1:13:04

the best of what I've had,

1:13:07

even though it's not good. And

1:13:09

so can I have faith for

1:13:11

what I have yet to experience?

1:13:13

Can I have faith that it can

1:13:15

exist for me? And I need

1:13:18

to say this, because I, you

1:13:20

know, part of therapy for me

1:13:22

is like, not giving false

1:13:24

promises. It's like, let's

1:13:26

say you didn't meet Mr.

1:13:28

or Miss Wonderful. Do

1:13:30

you still want to be in

1:13:33

this? Right? So it's not a

1:13:35

matter of like, it's, because if

1:13:37

not, people will think

1:13:39

instantly, well, where's my

1:13:41

new person? And it's

1:13:43

like, well, how about where's

1:13:45

my new life? How about here's

1:13:47

my joy? How about here's my

1:13:49

opportunity to begin my new chapter,

1:13:52

whatever that is going to be?

1:13:54

Here's my opportunity to be

1:13:56

my full self instead of

1:13:58

a reduced fractional. version of

1:14:00

me. That's right. That's right.

1:14:02

Absolutely. So I think it's easier

1:14:05

sometimes for people to imagine that

1:14:07

than because the other way if

1:14:09

the other way if it's just

1:14:11

hooked on to like I'm instantly

1:14:14

gonna be swooped off my feet

1:14:16

by someone amazing and when months

1:14:18

or years past they haven't met

1:14:20

that person then they feel like

1:14:23

oh I made a mistake. It's

1:14:25

like no you were miserable. You

1:14:27

were miserable and unfulfilled. And so

1:14:29

now you're living a freer

1:14:31

life and down the road,

1:14:33

who knows how far down

1:14:35

the road, you may connect

1:14:38

with someone and then you'll

1:14:40

be able to say it was worth

1:14:42

the weight. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Patience.

1:14:44

It really all sounds to me

1:14:46

like it comes back to a

1:14:49

practice of patience for yourself. I

1:14:51

will say patience. and co-creating.

1:14:53

So I'm not just

1:14:55

like passively sitting and

1:14:58

waiting, right? Because I have

1:15:00

people who are like that, who

1:15:02

just like work remote, stay home

1:15:04

all day. And it's like, who

1:15:06

are you going to meet? The

1:15:09

delivery person. So I have to

1:15:11

be active while I'm being patient,

1:15:13

but I'm engaging with life.

1:15:16

Yeah. And sometimes

1:15:18

just that, just shifting

1:15:20

where you physically are,

1:15:22

putting yourself in new rooms.

1:15:24

Right. It can reveal your whole

1:15:27

life to you. Yes. Yeah. You

1:15:29

might have been in front of

1:15:31

you the whole time. Absolutely. Absolutely.

1:15:35

I said this a lot in that

1:15:37

very transformational year as

1:15:39

well. Like, I just didn't

1:15:41

see it till I saw it. And

1:15:43

I think you. If

1:15:45

you're lucky, you get put in

1:15:48

spaces where you get to see

1:15:50

something you didn't expect. Right.

1:15:52

Yes, it's true. Being open to

1:15:54

the new. Can my life be different

1:15:57

than it is right now? Yes, it

1:15:59

can be. Yes. So these are

1:16:01

big ideas. Courage is a

1:16:03

big practice. Bravery is a

1:16:05

big practice. A faith walk

1:16:08

is a big practice.

1:16:10

What are some of the smaller,

1:16:12

more able to go on

1:16:14

perhaps a to-do list? Yes.

1:16:17

Or a calendar, the daily

1:16:19

practices that you would tell

1:16:22

people to incorporate for

1:16:24

their... mental self-care or that

1:16:26

you incorporate for yours. Yeah,

1:16:28

so I'd like to say

1:16:31

create a morning ritual, you

1:16:33

know, set the tone for your

1:16:35

day. And, you know, I had

1:16:37

to discover that because basically if

1:16:40

you wake up at the time you

1:16:42

have to jump out of

1:16:44

bed, you've already started to

1:16:46

stay anxious, right? Oh, then we

1:16:48

need to set the alarm before

1:16:50

I need to actually be up.

1:16:53

So I could have a season

1:16:55

of stillness, a season of sacred

1:16:58

connection, whatever that's gonna look like

1:17:00

for me. It might be listening

1:17:02

to this podcast. It might be

1:17:05

journaling. It might be waking up

1:17:07

early enough to be able to

1:17:09

go for a walk. It might

1:17:12

be because I need time for

1:17:14

prayer and meditation. So start the

1:17:16

day by feeding your spirit. I

1:17:19

like to say, you know, pick

1:17:21

a theme song. This is the

1:17:23

song that like, when you put

1:17:25

it on it makes you want to

1:17:27

dance or makes you feel good

1:17:29

inside. That way you're not going out

1:17:31

in the world hungry and desperate

1:17:33

for the world to give you life.

1:17:36

Like I show up and then

1:17:38

I can give for my overflow,

1:17:40

right? I can't show up empty.

1:17:42

So I have to be intentional

1:17:44

about pouring into myself. So yeah,

1:17:46

start the day. in love with

1:17:48

love with the sacred and then

1:17:51

I would say stretch into greater

1:17:53

vulnerability in your

1:17:56

relationships and friendships.

1:17:58

Tell some and

1:18:00

uncommon truth today. You

1:18:02

know, when someone asks

1:18:04

you, how are you doing,

1:18:07

give somebody a real answer.

1:18:09

And then we'll start

1:18:11

to deepen our friendships

1:18:14

and deepen our connections.

1:18:16

Hmm, give somebody a

1:18:18

real answer. Yeah, that's

1:18:20

nice. Right. It's really nice.

1:18:23

Do you have a morning

1:18:25

song? Oh, I have several.

1:18:28

Breathe it in is beautiful

1:18:30

chorus. People listen to that.

1:18:33

That just reminds you to

1:18:35

take breath. And then my

1:18:38

dear sister, Joy Jones, has

1:18:40

a song called Beautiful. So

1:18:42

it starts with this affirmation.

1:18:45

I'm beautiful. Yes, I am.

1:18:47

And so just like serenating

1:18:51

yourself in the morning.

1:18:53

Yeah. That's so special.

1:18:55

And it strikes me as

1:18:57

simple in a way. These are

1:18:59

simple ideas, but what they

1:19:02

do for your spirit and

1:19:04

for the way you begin

1:19:06

your day. Profound. Right. It

1:19:08

is about repeated practices

1:19:10

over time. So in the

1:19:13

moment, and this is

1:19:15

an important piece people need

1:19:17

to keep in mind, you

1:19:20

want goals that are

1:19:22

actually doable and attainable.

1:19:24

Right? Sometimes we set like

1:19:26

these outrageously huge goals that

1:19:29

are a setup for disappointment, a

1:19:31

set up for failure, and then

1:19:33

we give up, right? So the

1:19:35

common one I say, I think

1:19:37

I had it in the first

1:19:39

book homecoming, that if last night,

1:19:42

if you had fried chicken last

1:19:44

night, don't say starting today, I'm

1:19:46

a vegan. It's just, it's not

1:19:48

going to work. You start with

1:19:50

like a meatless Monday, right?

1:19:53

So set goals that seem

1:19:55

small, but you repeat them

1:19:57

over time and your habit.

1:20:00

comes your life. That's

1:20:02

beautiful. Oh gosh. Yeah,

1:20:04

I just am sitting with the

1:20:06

thought of it. Looking at

1:20:08

the time and knowing I

1:20:11

need to ask you my

1:20:13

next question, but just taking

1:20:15

a moment. So thank

1:20:17

you for that. You know,

1:20:20

you are a person who

1:20:22

strikes me as always

1:20:24

growing and learning and

1:20:26

interrogating and giving. to the

1:20:29

world certainly and you've given

1:20:31

us a new book. What

1:20:34

feels, because I imagine when

1:20:36

you think about the things you

1:20:38

want to do, you are a

1:20:40

person who wants to do for

1:20:43

everyone. I love that you talk

1:20:45

about how to do for

1:20:48

yourself, but what right now, as

1:20:50

the book is coming out and

1:20:52

the world is what it is,

1:20:54

and yet you choose to begin

1:20:56

every day in love, With

1:20:59

all these things you hold what

1:21:01

feels like your work in

1:21:03

progress right now? Well, I

1:21:05

will say one of my

1:21:07

what's a continuous work is

1:21:09

is parenting My eldest is

1:21:12

a sophomore in college now

1:21:14

in cross-country all the way

1:21:16

in New York And then

1:21:18

my youngest is in middle

1:21:20

school and they come you

1:21:22

know, with very different personalities.

1:21:24

So I like to say,

1:21:26

you know, my eldest made

1:21:28

me a very confident parent

1:21:30

because like she just got

1:21:32

out and then where my

1:21:35

son came along, I had

1:21:37

to get some humility. Like,

1:21:39

oh, yeah. So continuing to

1:21:42

be open to learning, like learning

1:21:44

them and learning myself. One of

1:21:46

the things that really nourishes me,

1:21:48

we talk about like what are

1:21:50

our practices we can do. I

1:21:53

have a sisterhood circle called the

1:21:55

gathering and we get together about

1:21:57

once a month either in person

1:21:59

or. online and just pour

1:22:01

into each other. And it's

1:22:03

so important to me that

1:22:06

it's not a space where

1:22:08

like I'm doing all the

1:22:10

pouring and people are just

1:22:12

receiving. Like it is a

1:22:15

real sisterhood circle where if

1:22:17

we're having a rough month,

1:22:19

we say that and get

1:22:22

the encouragement. If you know,

1:22:24

we have something to celebrate,

1:22:26

we share that. And so

1:22:28

yeah. Sisterhood. is such a gift

1:22:31

and I continue to humble

1:22:33

myself and develop as a

1:22:36

parent. Yeah, I love that.

1:22:38

Yeah, it feels beautiful. Thank

1:22:40

you so much for coming

1:22:42

on today. It's just been

1:22:45

an absolute joy. Thank you

1:22:47

for having me for the

1:22:49

wonderful conversation and for the

1:22:51

beauty of your transparency and

1:22:53

your testimony. I know that

1:22:56

as you share your story

1:22:58

it sets so many people

1:23:00

free and I love the

1:23:02

range of us talking from

1:23:04

personal relationships to social justice.

1:23:07

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1:23:09

necessary. It is. Thank you

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