0:00

Hi everyone, it's Sophia and welcome back

0:02

to Work in Progress. When

0:14

you think Jane Goodall, your mind

0:17

probably jumps immediately

0:19

to chimpanzees, and with good reason.

0:22

Her landmark study of chimps in the wild

0:25

fundamentally changed our understanding

0:27

of humans, relationship to other primates,

0:30

and the capability of animals. But Jane

0:32

Goodall is so much more than her research

0:35

in primatology, and today she

0:37

is our guests on Work in Progress. Dr

0:40

Goodall is also a powerhouse in climate

0:42

change activism and conservation that

0:45

Jane Goodall institutes Trees for Jane

0:47

campaign is creating a cross

0:49

generational initiative to preserve,

0:51

replenish, and promote our planets forests.

0:54

She is an author whose newest book, The

0:56

Book of Hope, is coming out this month. Her

0:59

Ted talk have millions of views, her podcast

1:02

hundreds of thousands of downloads. But Jane

1:04

Goodall has always used her platform,

1:06

her many platforms, in fact, for

1:08

one thing, the betterment of our

1:11

planet and human interaction with

1:13

the environment. I am so excited

1:15

to talk with Jane Goodall and learn more about

1:17

her as a person, as well as

1:19

dive deeper into her extensive career

1:21

and the roles that she has taken on as an

1:23

advocate for nature. I hope you're

1:25

excited to let's get started. Good

1:41

morning, Jane, It's so lovely to see you again.

1:44

Good to see you too. How

1:46

have you been since the Templeton Prize?

1:49

Busier than I've ever been in my whole

1:51

life with publishing books

1:54

and with all the Cup twenty six

1:56

coming up, and all the pre Cup twenty six

1:58

and all the U stuff, and

2:01

it just doesn't stop. I mean there's a there's

2:03

a minimum of two zooms

2:05

to day, that's a minimum

2:08

and two hours this morning. Very

2:10

busy all over the world. I mean, in

2:12

one day, I can be in China, India,

2:15

tens Ina, North America.

2:19

You know, it's incredible.

2:22

I imagine that

2:25

it must be surreal, you know,

2:27

all of these years into your work and career

2:30

and your public advocacy to

2:32

be, as you said, busier than

2:34

ever. Does it feel

2:37

like we're at a moment where everyone

2:39

is really really listening to what you've

2:41

been saying for so long. Well,

2:43

it does seem like it's strangely enough,

2:47

it really does, you know, because some

2:49

of these issues are rising up to the top of

2:51

government agendas, and that

2:53

does seem to be more awareness, and COVID

2:56

has woken people up. And

2:58

you know also the fact that the effects

3:01

of climate change are no longer just

3:03

being thought of as o something happening in

3:05

the third world far away. Now

3:08

it's harming people all over the US

3:10

and Europe. And I think that's

3:13

made a big difference. Yes,

3:15

it is so interesting. I it

3:17

seems that many of us were cultured for a long

3:20

time to think, oh, well, it couldn't

3:22

happen here. Terrible things don't

3:24

happen here. We read about them in the history

3:26

books, and and they happen far away,

3:28

and oh, isn't it sad? But

3:31

people don't often feel truly

3:33

touched. And to see

3:36

the ways that that false

3:39

idea, that not to be crass

3:41

but ridiculous idea of separatism

3:44

or safety as has really

3:47

begun to go away for a lot of folks.

3:49

It seems that people are understanding

3:53

what you've been saying for so long. You know, our

3:56

our liberation is bound together. What

3:59

happens there happy is here. What affects

4:01

the environment far away affects our own.

4:04

And now when you see, you know, the

4:06

subways of New York flooding like in

4:08

a disaster movie and and

4:11

northern zones in this country being

4:13

read designated as subtropical.

4:16

Everyone's going, oh, this is what

4:18

the scientists have been talking about. So

4:21

on the one one coast you got flooding

4:23

and destruction from hurricanes. On the

4:26

other side, the environment is

4:28

burning. And

4:30

Europe of course was subjected to these

4:33

terrible floods earlier in the year, and fires

4:36

too, And for the very first

4:38

time in history as far as

4:40

we know, the

4:43

Arctic forests were on

4:46

fire in the Arctic

4:48

Circle. And since I first

4:50

went to Greenland, the ice cap

4:52

has dropped. I mean, you

4:54

know, like when I first went to Tanzania

4:58

Mount Kilimanjaro, the famous snows

5:00

of Kilimanjaro, snows came halfway

5:02

down the mountain. Now they've gone.

5:06

Wow. I'm

5:08

curious about all

5:11

of what you've seen, and

5:14

and when you talk about where you find yourself in your

5:16

career now, zooming all over the world and

5:18

being able to be in so many places at once,

5:21

I think back to our first interaction,

5:24

which I got to tell you about recently, when

5:26

I was in the eighth grade and you came and spoke at

5:28

my school in Pasadena, my

5:30

little all girls school called Westbridge, and

5:33

I was so touched when I shared that with you, because

5:35

you said, what it's been like,

5:38

as miss Jane Goodall to

5:41

meet so many people who say, you

5:43

came to my school in this city, You visited

5:45

my school in this town. You You've

5:48

really dedicated so much of your life,

5:50

not only to showing

5:53

up in the places that require

5:56

study, but then taking your learned

5:58

knowledge to other places to

6:00

inspire the rest of us. And

6:03

I'm very curious. I found

6:05

myself thinking a lot about this after we

6:08

got off of our last zoom. I thought, well,

6:10

well, who was Jane as a schoolgirl?

6:13

You know, what what school did you grow up

6:15

in? Because I I know my experience

6:18

as a schoolgirl meeting you, But

6:20

but who were you when you were that age,

6:22

when you were in you know, seventh

6:24

or eighth grade. Were you always

6:27

really curious about the world. Did you love

6:29

animals as a child or did that come

6:32

later? I was actually born

6:35

loving animals. My mother tells me that

6:37

when I was just eighteen months old, she

6:40

found I had taken a whole lot of earthworms

6:42

to bed, and she said, Jane, you

6:44

were watching them so intently. I think

6:46

you were wondering how do they walk without

6:49

legs. And you

6:51

know, because I was so curious

6:53

as to where a hen's egg came out

6:55

of the hen, I couldn't see a hole like that. And

6:58

we'd gone to stay on a farm in the country.

7:01

And so I hid in a hen house for

7:03

four hours, aged four, four

7:06

year old, hiding for four hours. My

7:08

mother didn't know where I was. She even called

7:10

the police. But I was very lucky

7:13

in having a supportive mother and

7:15

this love of animals she supported.

7:18

And when I was growing up, it was during

7:20

World War two, so

7:22

I don't think they even made children's books

7:25

anyway. We didn't have any money so

7:27

to speak of, so books

7:29

came from libraries. But Mom found books

7:31

for me about animals. She

7:34

said, well, Jane'll learn to read more quickly.

7:37

So the great thing, the reason I'm saying

7:39

this is that the most important

7:41

thing for a parent is to

7:44

support the interests of the child

7:46

and not try and push them

7:48

into some career path that isn't

7:51

important for the child. That

7:54

so many parents do that you know, you've

7:56

got to go to business school, you've got to get you've

7:58

got to make money. You weren't you wouldn't you wouldn't

8:01

succeed unless you make money, make money,

8:03

make money, make money. And I've

8:05

had young people come up in tears.

8:08

I'm saying, I don't want to go to business school.

8:10

I don't want to do business. I want to help the environment.

8:13

Mm hmm. It's

8:15

interesting, you know, for me, my

8:18

dad immigrated to the US in the seventies

8:21

and became a citizen when I was twelve

8:25

or thirteen, right right around that sort

8:27

of crossover age, and

8:30

my mom's family came

8:33

in my grandmother's generation, you

8:35

know, on a boat from Italy into the US,

8:38

the sort of nostalgic, famed

8:40

stories of coming in through Ellis Island

8:42

and you know, signing your name in

8:44

the book. And even though

8:46

my dad is an artist, there was definitely

8:49

that kind of a culture for me of

8:52

you know, you'll be a doctor or a lawyer, or

8:54

you could be a lawyer or a doctor. It was

8:57

very specific and

8:59

and it was interesting, I think when I finally

9:01

got to tell my parents

9:05

what I really wanted to do, and I understood

9:07

their fear. I think lots of parents

9:09

want their kids to have the most secure, if not

9:11

the most creative job. But you

9:13

know, I got to point up my dad and say, well, you turned

9:15

your hobby into your work. Both

9:18

my parents thought, God, damn it. She

9:20

has a point, um. But

9:22

I do think it's so cool to

9:26

realize that if, as you

9:28

say, if a parent can release

9:31

a little bit of that, you know, grip on

9:33

fear and lean

9:35

into what their kids are passionate about. You

9:38

know, look at look at what can happen. Even

9:41

as you say, you know you grew up during

9:44

the war, I imagine there were periods

9:46

of austerity and struggle.

9:49

What part of England were you in as a

9:51

child? Where where were you at that time? Right

9:54

where I am now, south of England,

9:56

Bournemouth, and all

9:58

that stood between us and the might of

10:01

the Germans Nazi

10:03

Germany was a little bit of scaffolding

10:05

and Zimbabwe, because Britain

10:07

wasn't prepared for war, and

10:10

quite honestly, it seemed

10:12

hopeless because the rest of Europe had

10:15

capitulated, they'd either been

10:17

defeated or surrendered, and

10:20

it was just for a while, it was just Britain

10:23

standing up against the might of Nazi

10:26

Germany, and it was our air force and

10:29

the armed forces

10:31

from the colonies. Otherwise the

10:34

whole of Europe would have been overrun by Nazi

10:36

fascism, and

10:39

so you know, I was

10:41

ten years old when the pictures

10:43

from the Holocaust were released and

10:46

it taught me a lot. I mean, I was very young

10:48

when I learned about evil and

10:51

what true evil is. And

10:53

seeing those first pictures of

10:55

the survivors of the Holocaust, these walking

10:58

skeletons, I mean, it was it made

11:00

such a deep impression on me. And

11:03

I think the fact that having

11:05

lived through that time is with wrightening,

11:08

austerity and all the rest of

11:10

it, taught me to take nothing for granted

11:13

food or life. And it

11:16

also helped me to understand

11:19

that however dark the

11:21

situation seems today,

11:23

which it does, we're living

11:26

in dark times politically,

11:28

socially, especially environmentally,

11:31

But if Britain came through that

11:33

dark time, then we

11:35

can again. We've got that indomitable

11:38

spirit. What I love about your what

11:40

you're saying, is it it feels like

11:45

a real merger between a

11:47

practical realism and hope.

11:52

And I think we need that. I think we need to

11:54

be very frank about where

11:56

we are and remember

11:58

the resiliency not just of

12:01

the human spirit but the planet. I

12:04

wonder when you tell that story, that

12:07

kind of experience for a young child is

12:09

so sobering, and

12:11

I imagine for so many of you traumatic

12:15

you know, to to learn evil at the age of

12:17

ten is is no small experience.

12:20

Did that real kind

12:22

of reality

12:25

check for a lack of a of a better

12:27

term in this moment of aha?

12:29

For me? Uh? Did did

12:31

that experience influence

12:36

the way that you advocate the seriousness

12:39

with which you talk about

12:41

the way the world treats itself?

12:46

How can I tell? I don't know. I

12:48

had an amazing mother, had an amazing

12:50

family. And one of the

12:52

things my mother did which was extraordinary,

12:56

well, actually, first of all, when I was ten,

12:58

I dreamed of going to f kind of living with

13:00

wild animals and writing books about them,

13:03

and everybody laughed. Girls didn't

13:05

that sort of thing? Yeah? Ten,

13:08

Yes, after reading the books Mom found

13:10

for me, and everybody

13:12

laughed except Mom, and she said, if you

13:15

really want to do something like this, you're going

13:17

to have to work really hard, take advantage

13:19

of every opportunity, and if you don't

13:21

give up, maybe you find a way. That's

13:24

the message I've taken to young people all

13:26

over the world, particularly in disadvantage

13:29

communities, and I wish Mom

13:31

was around to know. How many

13:33

people have written to me or said to me,

13:36

thank you because you've taught me. Because

13:38

you did it, I can do it too.

13:41

And that is a wonderful message

13:44

to take around. But the other

13:46

thing that she did, you know, I credit

13:48

a lot of who I am and what I've

13:50

done to the way that she raised me

13:54

was that after the war, I mean, during the

13:56

war, you can imagine when

13:59

London's being armed, when your

14:01

relatives are dying being shot down

14:04

by the Germans, when there's the Blitz, people

14:07

in London bodies destroyed, houses

14:09

destroyed, huge areas.

14:12

My uncle was a doctor in

14:14

London and he was working desperately

14:17

on the Blitz victims, and

14:21

and so we hated the Germans.

14:23

You can imagine we hated them,

14:25

and you would hear the sound of a German voice

14:27

and it would make you feel cold inside.

14:30

But after the war, about five

14:33

years after the war, there

14:35

was a German family that wanted

14:37

someone to come and speak English

14:40

so that their children would learn to speak good

14:42

English. And Mom's

14:44

friend said, you can't let Jane go to Germany.

14:48

But she let me go because she

14:50

wanted me to understand that

14:53

Nazi Germany was not the same

14:56

as Germany, and that Germans were like

14:58

us, and it was this fanaticism

15:01

that now we're seeing in

15:04

different parts of the world. That's

15:07

such a beautiful thing that she did in

15:10

that time. You

15:13

have this dream at ten, your

15:15

mother says, lean into it. The

15:17

war ends, and and in

15:19

your early teen years you get

15:22

this next incredible lesson that people

15:25

are not always

15:28

their government's ideology.

15:31

And then I know, at twenty three

15:34

you left for Kenya for

15:36

your first study in Africa.

15:39

What what happened in between those years?

15:41

What happened in in Jane's life

15:43

from you know, your mid teens until

15:45

you set off on that voyage. Well,

15:48

I did well at school. I didn't like school.

15:51

It was a day school. I didn't like it

15:53

because I wanted to be out in nature. I

15:56

wanted to be with my dog. I did not want

15:58

to be in school. But I was good

16:00

at the lessons um

16:03

I did well. I was always up in the top

16:05

three in exams, for example.

16:08

So when I left school, I couldn't

16:10

afford university because in those days

16:13

you couldn't get scholarships unless

16:15

you were good in a foreign language, and I wasn't.

16:17

It's one thing I couldn't do, and

16:20

so I had to have a job. You

16:23

know, I said, we have very little money,

16:26

and I we had just enough

16:29

money for a secretarial course. So

16:31

I did a boring old secretarial course.

16:34

I was in London. I had

16:36

fun. I was you know. I

16:38

enjoyed going out and having going

16:41

to the odd dance and meeting

16:44

young men and this certain

16:46

the other. But the dream of Africa

16:48

was always there. And so

16:51

when I was invited by a school friend

16:53

to go for a holiday in Kenya, that

16:55

was the opportunity. And I came

16:57

home because you couldn't save money in London,

17:00

and I worked in a hotel

17:02

around the corner, just around there, as

17:05

a waitress. And it was one

17:07

of those old fashioned hotels. It wasn't a

17:09

fancy unlike today. So

17:12

you went in and the rest of the staff

17:14

were all professional. Me just

17:16

coming in, and they resented me.

17:18

They sat, well, Jane'll get

17:20

invited out and she'll leave us in their

17:23

lature. Of course, I'm not like that. I wouldn't

17:25

do that. I took it very seriously.

17:28

In fact, Mom and I sometimes giggled over

17:30

it. And it

17:33

was interesting because I got to know these Irish

17:35

Catholics, that the whole waiting staff

17:37

was Irish Catholics except for

17:39

one Italian, and that the

17:41

one man other than the wine

17:43

waiter was Italian. And

17:46

so I found my way around in

17:48

this strange world. And of course in the end they

17:51

accepted me, totally, invited

17:53

me to their weddings and things like that,

17:56

and finally I saved up enough

17:58

money went out to Africa

18:01

when I was twenty three on

18:03

a boat because planes weren't going back

18:05

and forth in those days, that's how long

18:07

ago it was. And the

18:09

first place we landed was Cape

18:11

Town because instead

18:13

of going through the Suez Canal, if you know your

18:16

geography, there was a war between

18:18

Britain and Egypt, silly war,

18:20

but the Suez Canal was closed,

18:23

so we had to go all the way around Africa and

18:26

landed in Cape Town for the first time,

18:29

and it was so excited. Africa was in

18:32

Africa, was on African soil. I'm

18:34

on my way. But then on the

18:36

benches in the parks and on the doors

18:38

to the restaurants will be stopped for two days

18:41

while the ship refueled or whatever they

18:43

do. And it

18:46

was all this writing in Africa and

18:48

slix blanc, slex blocks,

18:50

slex block. So I said to their

18:52

friends who were taking me round? What

18:54

does this mean? White people

18:57

only? And suddenly

18:59

I couldn't leave fast enough because I wasn't

19:01

brought up that way. Wow.

19:04

Yeah, as a young woman too. To

19:07

have been healing one war and then to enter

19:10

into the

19:12

horrors of apartheid must have been quite

19:15

a shock. It was horrible. So

19:17

you begin to understand what's happening

19:20

then in South Africa. But

19:22

only two days in Cape Town, I mean, it's not long too

19:25

necessarily meet people ask questions

19:27

about what's happening. You

19:30

said you couldn't get out of there fast enough,

19:32

which I feel like I understand.

19:35

Were you able to glean any kind of information

19:38

about who was doing the work

19:40

there or was it so brief that you just

19:42

got back on the ship and continued

19:44

on to get to Kenya. I had

19:46

an introduction to a person

19:50

who had been in the church in Bournemouth

19:54

Congregational and he told

19:56

me some terrible stories, and the one

19:58

that stuck with me. He was

20:00

walking along the street and there was

20:02

a bus coming and there was

20:04

this African woman, old lady, and

20:07

she had carrying

20:09

a heavy basket and one

20:11

of the handles broke and everything scattered

20:14

over the road and so he rushed

20:16

to help her, and he said her face

20:18

turned gray under the black

20:20

skin, and she said, I'll

20:23

get terribly punished if a white person

20:25

is seen helping me. That's

20:28

how bad it was. How

20:31

do you begin to process that, you know, as a young

20:33

woman, because it's not lost on me

20:35

that I would struggle deeply

20:38

if I witnessed something like that today

20:41

and we're talking about

20:44

what sixty years ago maybe

20:47

more. How do

20:49

you make sense of, oh,

20:52

this is what injustice

20:54

is happening in this part of the world, and

20:57

know that you're not going to be able to stay there

20:59

to do anything about it. I mean, I couldn't

21:01

do anything about the Holocaust, could I was ten

21:05

when I got to Kenya. It was better.

21:08

It was on the on the brink

21:10

of becoming independent from British

21:12

colonialism, but realizing

21:15

that British colonial rule was crumbling

21:18

in Kenya and then subsequently in Tanzania,

21:21

which was Tanganika when I arrived.

21:23

You know, I mean, you can't fix

21:26

everything. One person can only

21:28

do the things that one person can do.

21:31

And so I've never spent a

21:33

lot of time agonizing

21:35

over things I can't do. I mean, yes, do I get

21:38

upset am I upset about what's

21:40

happening in Iran, that the women years I

21:42

am with the Taliban taking

21:44

over. I can't do anything about it,

21:46

and of course I hate it,

21:48

but I can only support people

21:51

who write and say, you

21:53

know, I can't do anyth So

21:55

there's no point wasting all

21:57

your energy on something you actually can

22:00

do something about when there are so

22:02

many things you can try and do something

22:04

about. M M. That's

22:06

hard. It's a hard pill to swallow, but

22:08

I think it can be a very

22:11

helpful advice to say

22:14

you should always ask questions, try

22:17

to understand what's

22:19

happening to people you know, use your voice,

22:21

be compassionate, and be

22:25

clear about focusing your skill set

22:27

on that which you can help the most.

22:30

I think sometimes and I

22:32

hear this, you know, when I Jane

22:35

speak to young people in schools, they say, well,

22:37

I just don't know how to help. I don't know what to work

22:39

on. They feel so overwhelmed

22:41

because they do have so much information

22:43

about all of these things happening

22:45

around the world. And I think

22:48

that that is a really excellent

22:51

and again, um,

22:55

it reminds me of that since

22:58

you gave me earlier of practical hope, you

23:00

have to really want to change the world for the

23:03

better and be practical about how much

23:05

you as one person can do yes.

23:08

And you know, fortunately I've lived long enough

23:10

that I have a network of friends

23:13

in different fields. So one thing

23:15

I can do is link people together. Link

23:18

the people who ask for help to

23:20

somebody who can help. Because

23:23

right now, just about any

23:25

problem that the world is facing, there's

23:28

a group of people or several groups

23:31

who are working on that particular

23:33

problem. So as I know many of

23:35

them now, just linking them

23:38

is something that one can do. Oh

23:40

that makes me so happy to hear you say that,

23:42

because that's something I really take great pleasure

23:44

in. As well. There's the

23:47

there's the whole world of each

23:49

of our versions of you know, public activism.

23:52

And one of the things that actually feels most

23:54

fulfilling to me is the stuff nobody

23:56

knows about. When I am able to make an

23:59

introduction, can three people on an

24:01

email or a text message and and

24:03

and make sure that we I think

24:05

about it almost as like um,

24:08

you know, the nets under the trapeze

24:10

artists at the circus. It feels

24:12

like that to me, weaving these nets of support

24:15

and that that's a good reminder

24:18

for anyone listening at home as well. Sometimes

24:20

the greatest gift you can give a cause is

24:22

connection to another. So

24:24

we we now back

24:27

to our steamship. We now are arriving

24:29

in Kenya and you're having this

24:31

first experience. You

24:33

talk about always having had an interest

24:35

in animals and in primates.

24:38

You've told the story many times, so I won't

24:40

ask you to repeat it. Of you know, your stuffed

24:42

chimpanzee that that you had

24:44

is little Jane. How

24:47

did all of these things, this this series

24:50

of coincidences, the holiday and your

24:52

interests, and your wonderfully supportive

24:54

mom who encouraged you to lean into animal

24:57

study and science. Did

24:59

all all those things just perfectly

25:01

line up when you met Louis

25:04

Leakey? Because I'm thinking about

25:06

this transition, as as you mentioned, from secretarial

25:09

work to winding up in the

25:12

gone By Stream National Park. How

25:14

did that shift happen? It

25:17

followed perfectly because that

25:19

boring old secretarial training.

25:22

When I met Louis Leakey, because I heard,

25:24

Jane, if you're interested in animals, you should

25:26

meet Louis Leakey. So I went

25:29

to see him at the Natural History Museum.

25:32

He was curator and

25:34

he took me around and asked me many questions.

25:36

I think he was impressed I knew so

25:38

much, even though I had just come out

25:41

from England, because I'd read every

25:43

book I could. I spent hours

25:45

in the Natural History Museum in London,

25:48

and guess what, two days

25:50

before he met me, his secretary

25:52

had left. He needed a secretary.

25:55

So there I was, and I was suddenly, I'm surrounded

25:57

by all these people who could answer

26:00

my questions about the mammals and the

26:02

birds and the reptiles, the amphibians,

26:04

the insects of plants of

26:06

Africa. And he let me go on an

26:09

expedition onto the Serengetti

26:11

planes, old of my gorge when all the

26:13

animals were there, and

26:15

he was very impressed that I knew

26:18

how to behave instinctively when

26:21

I met a lion, and when

26:23

I met a rhino, he said I'd done exactly

26:25

the right thing. And so that's

26:27

when he decided to ask

26:30

if I'd go and study chimps. I'd

26:32

never dreamt of chimpanzees.

26:35

I mean, they were exotic, nobody knew, nobody

26:38

had studied them at all. And

26:41

he wanted a woman because

26:44

he felt women might be more patient. He

26:46

was delighted I hadn't been to university

26:49

because he said, you know, your mind

26:52

is uncluttered by the then very

26:54

reductionist attitude

26:56

to animals that the ethologists

26:59

had, and so it

27:02

all seemed to be leading in the same direction.

27:04

And everything I did, whether I

27:06

wanted to do it or not, prepared

27:09

me for the next step. Incredible.

27:13

And how old are you at this point? I

27:15

was twenty three in those days. Twenty

27:17

three year old today is quite sophisticated.

27:20

But after the war, you know, we

27:22

were very sheltered. There were no young

27:25

people going out for overseas holidays.

27:28

Just they'd go as far as Switzerland for

27:30

skiing if they could afford it,

27:32

which we couldn't. But

27:34

you know, there weren't the sort of adventures

27:37

that students go on today. Absolutely

27:40

there weren't. There was the

27:43

World Tour for young men who

27:45

went around, usually with a tutor,

27:48

but girls were supposed to, you

27:51

know, do some job. Maybe you

27:53

could be a flight attendant, or

27:55

you'll be a nurse, or you could be a secretary,

27:57

and you waited to get married that

28:00

sit It's so interesting to think

28:02

about the

28:04

the restraints placed on women at the time,

28:07

and yet here's

28:09

your mentor, and he

28:11

says you should go. It

28:14

makes me think about how even today

28:16

we're discussing the gender disparities

28:18

in STEM fields in

28:20

you know, for the folks listening at home science

28:22

and technology, and we hear stories

28:24

about how difficult those avenues

28:27

can be for women to get

28:30

into. And I'm

28:32

amazed and so not

28:35

only glad for you, but for us who've

28:37

benefited from your work that Louis

28:39

Leakey said, I think you should

28:41

do this. While

28:44

you had him

28:46

encouraging and advocating for you, were

28:49

you faced with other

28:51

obstacles as a woman entering

28:54

the fields of anthropology and

28:56

primatology, or or did

28:58

his blessing make

29:00

other people take you seriously as well?

29:02

No, Well, you see, I was so lucky because basically

29:05

there wasn't anybody out in the field. It wasn't

29:08

that I broke into a male dominated

29:10

I broke into a completely new area

29:14

of research. There was George Sella

29:16

out studying gorillas, which

29:18

he managed to do for a year, and

29:21

there were two Americans

29:23

in South Africa studying baboons.

29:25

That was it. There wasn't a feel

29:27

primatology didn't exist. So

29:30

the authologists were studying birds and

29:33

insects, and that was it, and that, you

29:35

know, at least at Cambridge

29:37

when I finally got there, my supervisor

29:40

had a group of but captive monkeys.

29:44

So the most of the animal research

29:46

when I began, if there was

29:48

any, was done on captive animals. There

29:51

wasn't. I wasn't competing with men. That's

29:53

incredible when

29:55

I think about all of your study.

29:59

You've served chimpanzees and primates

30:01

for such a long time, and you've really

30:03

contributed so much towards our understanding

30:06

of our closest relatives

30:09

on this earth. Can you

30:11

tell us a little bit about the behaviors you've

30:14

witnessed in them

30:16

that have made you perhaps

30:19

better understand human

30:21

nature. Yes, well,

30:23

chimpanzees are so like

30:26

us in so many ways.

30:28

We know now how like us they are biologically

30:31

like. We differ in the structure

30:34

of DNA by only just over one

30:37

that's all. Yeah, that's all Genetically

30:40

the DNA where ninety

30:43

eight point six or seven percent

30:45

the same of the composition.

30:48

The difference comes in the expression

30:51

of the genes and environment

30:53

plays a major role, but in

30:56

their behavior, which is why Leaky

30:58

Leaky believed that about

31:00

six million years ago there was an ape

31:02

like human like creature,

31:05

because he spent his life searching

31:07

for the fossilized remains of early

31:09

humans. So he thought,

31:13

because behavior doesn't fossilize,

31:15

so you can tell a lot about the creature from

31:18

its skeleton. But he

31:20

thought, well, if James's behavior

31:22

similar to humans in chimps

31:24

today, then maybe their behavior

31:27

was in the common ancestor, and

31:29

maybe we've brought it with us

31:31

through our long evolutionary

31:34

separate pathways, which I

31:36

believe to be true. So

31:38

you know, seeing how they communicate with

31:40

kissing, embracing, holding hands,

31:43

patting one another, seeing

31:45

how the males compete for dominance,

31:48

swaggering, looking as big as they can,

31:50

just like human male politicians,

31:52

especially some which you probably

31:55

know even better than me. Um.

31:58

And then the strong ones between

32:00

mothers and offspring, family

32:02

relationships that go on through a life

32:04

of up to sixty five years, and

32:08

different kinds of mothers and the offspring

32:10

of the supportive mothers who

32:13

risk everything to go and rescue their

32:15

child from a difficult situation, those

32:17

offspring do better, they're more self

32:20

assured. Males reach a higher

32:22

position in the hierarchy and probably

32:25

sign more kids, and the females are better

32:27

mothers. So because

32:30

of all these similarities, I mean,

32:32

they have a kind of primitive

32:34

war. They can be brutal and violent,

32:37

which was a shock. They kill kill

32:40

each other from neighboring communities.

32:43

But they also can show altruism.

32:46

An unrelated male may adopt

32:48

a motherless infant and save its life.

32:51

But because they're so like us,

32:53

you can stand back and say, yes,

32:55

but but we're different.

32:57

I mean, you know, chimps are

33:00

a more intelligent than anyone

33:02

used to think, as are other animals, including

33:05

right down to the octopus and even

33:07

insects. But I mean,

33:10

you know, we're talking to each other

33:12

from different continents, and

33:15

we could if we wanted, we could have twenty

33:17

other people from twenty other conferences

33:20

on our countries on a zoom

33:23

we've sent. You know,

33:25

last week there was a beautiful full moon,

33:28

and when I look at it, I mean I remember,

33:30

you don't, but I remember the first

33:33

landing on the Moon and the orb science

33:35

fiction when I was a child, And

33:37

every time I look at that full moon, I think,

33:40

wow, we put people

33:42

up there. And I tell people in my lectures,

33:45

don't take it for granted. Look at

33:47

that moon and think we put people

33:50

up there, and now we've sent rockets to Mars.

33:53

So this biggest difference

33:55

between chimps us and other

33:57

animals explosive to development

34:00

of the intellect. So

34:02

is it not bizarre that this most intellectual

34:05

creature it's destroying its

34:07

only home. We don't want to go and

34:09

live on Mars. We can't

34:12

live on the Moon. We cannot

34:14

in our lifetimes get too far away

34:16

planets that might support similar

34:20

life to that which we know. So

34:22

we've just got this one beautiful,

34:25

blue and green planet and

34:27

we're destroying it as you

34:29

and I speak. We're destroying the

34:31

forests, We're polluting the oceans.

34:34

Are stupid. Industrial agriculture

34:36

is killing the soil, spraying

34:39

poison, losing

34:41

biodiversity. We're trafficking

34:43

animals, which is why we have this pandemic,

34:46

because we've created conditions where diseases

34:49

can jump from an animal to a person where

34:51

they may start a new so called

34:54

zoootic disease. We're

34:56

burning fossil fuel, We're polluting the

34:58

atmosphere. I mean, we're stupid,

35:00

stupid, stupid, And

35:03

I think clever brain and

35:06

human heart have disconnected.

35:10

Yeah, I think about how sometimes

35:13

this this distance, this

35:15

is you know, the longest twelve inches

35:17

and the universe. It

35:20

really can be a struggle for us to connect

35:23

exactly what you're saying, the head

35:26

to the heart. Why

35:28

do you think it is that humans believe?

35:31

Again, in studying our closest relatives,

35:34

where it's really simply a difference

35:36

of one percent of DNA

35:39

and genetic expression. Why

35:42

do we think we're so special because

35:46

the Bible and other religions

35:48

have told us so. M

35:50

h. I think that's really at

35:53

the at the core of it when you think how what

35:56

an important part some kind of

35:58

religion has played throughout

36:00

human history. And

36:04

you know, there was a word

36:06

mistranslated in

36:08

the Bible in Genesis where

36:10

it says God gave dominion,

36:14

gave man dominion over the birds

36:16

and the fish and everything. But actually

36:19

the proper translation of that Hebrew

36:21

word is stewardship. That's

36:24

very different, and

36:27

I think it's led to an enormous amount

36:29

of abuse of animals.

36:31

And all these animals I just mentioned the

36:33

ones being trafficked around the world

36:36

that have led to zoonotic

36:38

diseases, but the animals

36:40

in our factory farms, crowded

36:42

in these cruel, horrible situations.

36:45

The puppy mills of sports hunting.

36:47

I mean, you can go around and add

36:49

on and on and on, cock fighting, dog

36:52

fighting, you name it. And

36:55

you know, now we know every one of

36:57

those animals is an

36:59

individual with a personality capable

37:02

of feeling fear, terror,

37:05

despair, and pain. And

37:08

think of the almost unimaginable

37:11

scale of suffering. It's

37:15

a cognitive dissonance. It's

37:18

it is truly so strange to

37:20

me that, as you say,

37:23

dominion, what a word, that we think

37:26

we are the rulers of a planet when

37:28

really we're just guests. We're

37:31

destroyers of the planet. Mm

37:33

hmm, like some rulers

37:35

today. That's the problem some

37:38

governments are and presidents

37:40

are so autocratic. Mm

37:42

hmm. That's a big problem,

37:45

which I suppose all boils down to a

37:47

desire for control and

37:49

a thirst for power. And

37:53

and that makes me curious about something you mentioned

37:55

earlier, and you you right, you

37:58

know, your first two books, Shadow of

38:00

Man and Through a Window, you

38:03

chronicle what is said to potentially

38:05

be the first ever recorded instance of

38:08

chimpanzee warfare, and

38:10

war as we've spoken about a variety

38:12

of them already today again

38:15

feels to me like a you know, a battle

38:18

over dominance and

38:20

a thirst for power. What was

38:22

it like to see that kind

38:25

of warfare in chimpanzees?

38:27

I mean the first time you talk so

38:30

much about the tenderness and the intricacies

38:32

of their society and then to see this, what

38:34

what was that like as an experience for

38:36

you? It was totally totally

38:39

horrible. The thing is a chimps.

38:42

Male chimps are territorial, and they have a territory.

38:46

And when I began studying

38:48

these chimps, I think I arrived

38:51

at a point when a rather big

38:53

community was dividing. That's

38:55

what I think. And probably

38:57

because we fed bananas, they stayed together

38:59

a long good than they might have otherwise. But

39:01

anyway, this process of one

39:04

group of males moving further

39:06

south was sort of ongoing

39:09

from the beginning, and

39:12

it was more males in the in

39:14

the in the north, and a

39:16

small group went south. But the

39:18

problem was that the smaller group settled

39:21

in part of what had been the range

39:23

of the whole community when it was

39:26

before it split, and for

39:28

four years there was not much

39:30

going on. But then gradually the

39:32

larger group began doing

39:34

these patrols and just awful

39:37

to watch because they would climb into

39:39

a tree, overlooking what you can

39:41

think of as the hostile territory

39:43

of this new community

39:45

that had separated off and

39:48

silent, and then seeing an

39:50

individual by itself and running

39:53

and attacking and killing, not

39:56

outright killing, leaving the individual

39:58

to die of the wounds. The awful

40:00

thing was these were chimps. It was

40:02

a civil war. These were chimps

40:04

who had fed together, nest together, groom

40:07

together, played together. I

40:09

knew them all and it was horrible. That

40:12

was That was the worst part. Okay,

40:14

they're always territorial. They

40:16

will attack individuals of a neighboring

40:19

community, but they don't

40:21

know them, so there's a kind of reason

40:23

for it. You know, you're protecting your

40:25

territory. But this was

40:28

different. This was and they were

40:30

treating these individuals not

40:32

like inn a normal quick chimp attack.

40:34

They are quite aggressive, but they

40:37

were treating them like animals that they kill

40:39

for food, using behavior

40:42

that we never saw in

40:45

attacks between individuals

40:47

in the same community. Twisting

40:50

the limbs, drinking blood. I mean, you

40:52

don't do that or somebody in your group.

40:55

So it was horrible. I

40:57

mean, they do have a dark side. That that's

40:59

what makes them so like us. That

41:01

kind of cruelty expressed, you

41:04

know, to your neighbor or for former family

41:06

member, feels almost personal. Yeah,

41:08

it feels vengeful, which you wouldn't

41:10

expect in in an animal.

41:13

I suppose I think of them more

41:15

like people and animals. People say, oh,

41:17

chimps, after chimps, what's your favorite animal?

41:19

I say, chimps are not my favorite

41:21

animal. They're much to like people, and

41:24

I don't even think of them as animals. That

41:27

my favorite animal, of course, it's a

41:29

dog, you and me

41:31

both. What was your life

41:33

like living

41:36

and studying them for so long? How

41:39

did you build a life

41:41

that you loved so far from home?

41:44

Was it that you were just so deeply inspired

41:46

by what you saw every day? Did you feel

41:48

more at home in Africa than you did in London?

41:50

Did you bring books with you,

41:52

have a routine? What? What was your what

41:55

was your world there? Well? First, when

41:57

I first went out, Mom

41:59

was with me because they wouldn't allow me to go

42:01

alone, and they said I had to have a companion,

42:04

and Ma'm volunteered, so I had money for

42:06

six months and she came for four

42:09

and she boosted my morale because for four

42:11

months they ran away. They

42:13

had never seen a white ape before. And

42:17

she also set up a clinic for

42:19

the local fishermen, just simple aspirends

42:21

and band aids and you

42:24

know, those

42:26

sort of simple things because she wasn't a doctor

42:28

or nurse, and so

42:30

established from the very beginning a really good

42:32

relationship with the local people. They

42:35

came for miles because she cured

42:37

them with her simple cures. She spent

42:39

hours with each one, and

42:43

then she left, and there

42:46

was a cook and a boatman, and

42:49

so every morning, every morning, it's

42:52

like nowadays, I don't have weekends.

42:54

Then I didn't have weekends. Every

42:56

morning, up before dawn, up

42:59

into the mountains looking

43:01

for the chimps sitting on this peak I

43:04

found using my binoculars,

43:06

staying up there, getting back to camp

43:09

just before it was dark, and

43:12

I knew those mountains like it

43:14

was my home. I mean, I loved

43:17

it. This was what I dreamed of. And

43:20

once the chimps stopped running away,

43:22

it was like magic. And then

43:24

after I saw David Graybeard using

43:27

tools to fish for termites, something

43:30

humans were supposed to be the only tool

43:32

using making creatures. And

43:35

that's where I got the pushback from

43:37

male scientists saying, why why should

43:40

we believe this young girl and

43:42

she's only getting money because she's got nice

43:44

legs and she's not a geographic cover

43:46

blah blah blah. But anyway, this

43:49

was when the geographic to

43:52

support the research and center

43:54

photographer and filmmaker and

43:57

so um being out

44:00

in the mountains on my own, there's

44:03

something special that if

44:05

you're on your own. And I always feel

44:07

this connection to a great spiritual power

44:10

when I'm out in the forest, other

44:14

wild places too, but specially the forest.

44:17

And if you're alone, you

44:20

forget your humanity. I

44:22

can't explain it well, but you're

44:24

just part of nature, Whereas if you're with

44:26

anybody, even somebody you love,

44:29

it's two people in nature.

44:32

Whereas if it's just you, you you are not there.

44:36

You're just living as a part

44:39

of the natural world. And

44:41

that's why I know how terrible it

44:43

is that young people today

44:45

are being increasingly separated

44:48

from the natural world, either

44:50

because they're in the middle of cities or

44:53

because they're more interested

44:55

in Facebook and video

44:58

games and so on. It's

45:00

a tragedy. If you don't

45:03

get children out into nature so

45:05

they learned to understand and love

45:07

it, how do we expect them to protect

45:10

it? And if we don't protect

45:12

it. You know, we're part of the natural

45:14

world. We're not separated from it. Even

45:17

in a city. We depend on it.

45:19

But clean air, for clean water, for food,

45:21

childer everything, and

45:24

we depend on healthy ecosystems.

45:28

So the forest ecosystem to me, was

45:31

like a beautiful tapestry of interrelated

45:34

strands of the different

45:36

species. And as species

45:39

get extinct, so threads

45:41

are pulled from the tapestry until

45:43

it hangs in tatters and

45:45

the ecosystem collapses. And

45:48

we depend on healthy

45:50

ecosystems, so we'd better

45:52

start doing something about it. We'd

45:55

better start getting together to heal

45:57

some of the wounds we've inflicted. Feels

46:00

like a you

46:02

know, daunting but clearly very necessary

46:06

coming together. Is

46:08

that what inspired you to

46:11

write your most recent book, The Book of Hope,

46:14

to to light that fire? Yes,

46:17

because if we lose hope, and many people are,

46:19

but if you lose hope, you

46:22

you you become apathetics. You

46:24

know, you feel helpless and hopeless and

46:26

you don't do anything. And

46:28

as more and more people lose hope, more

46:31

and more people stop taking action.

46:34

So for me, hope isn't just wishful

46:36

thinking. It's not sitting and

46:38

thinking, oh, well, I'm sure it will be all

46:40

right because blah blah blah. It's

46:44

and I thought the other day of that it's

46:47

rather like where in the

46:49

middle of a very very dark tunnel

46:53

filled with obstacles, and

46:56

at the far end it's a pinprick of

46:58

light and that hope And

47:01

to get there you don't

47:03

just sit and hope you'll get that. You have to

47:05

work and fight to get that, overcome

47:08

the obstacles. And

47:10

so we need the rallying cry

47:12

is there is hope, but only

47:14

if we take action, all of

47:16

us. It has

47:19

to be an active hope. That's what hope

47:21

is to me. It's not just wishful

47:23

thinking. Mm hmm. Is

47:26

it that kind of commitment

47:29

to taking the action that

47:31

really lead you two

47:33

more directly take on conservation

47:36

efforts because you spent so long observing

47:38

and being a scientist and

47:41

then forming

47:44

and creating the mission around the Jane

47:46

Goodall Institute. Your

47:48

approach is about

47:51

conservation and putting the focus

47:53

and the power in local communities

47:56

so that each place can,

47:59

in their own way, do

48:02

that work for their

48:04

community. What what

48:06

led you to that approach when

48:08

you were building out the institute, Because

48:10

after I went to this conference in eight

48:13

six I thought, well, I hear

48:15

that chimps are vanishing and forest

48:17

to being destroyed. A bit ago and

48:20

travel around Africa and see

48:22

what's happening with my own eyes. I think you have to

48:24

see with your own eyes. And

48:28

got together a bit of money and went

48:30

to six range countries

48:33

and learned a lot about the problems facing

48:35

the chimps, that lots of habitat,

48:38

the bush meat trade, people

48:40

moving deeper and deeper into the forest

48:42

with their diseases. But

48:45

I learned about the plight of so many of the

48:47

people, the crippling poverty,

48:49

the lack of good health and education,

48:52

the degradation of the land, the growth

48:54

of the human population. When

48:56

I flew over Gombi, which had been part

48:59

of a great forest ist in

49:01

the sixties and the seventies,

49:04

But when when I flew over in the late

49:06

eighties, it was just a little island

49:08

of forests as National Park, where

49:10

the chimps were surrounded by bear hills.

49:13

And that's when it hit me, if we don't

49:15

help these people find ways of living without

49:18

destroying the environment, then

49:20

we can't save chimps, forests or anything

49:22

else. And so that led to

49:25

our Takari program, which

49:27

is very holistic and

49:30

you know, includes restoring fertility

49:32

to the overused land, scholarships

49:35

to keep girls in school after puberty.

49:38

As women's education improves, family

49:41

sized tends to drop. We

49:43

provide family planning information

49:46

and we've now taught the people. They

49:49

volunteer and they come to workshops

49:51

to learn about monitoring

49:53

the health of their village forest reserves

49:56

with smartphones. They're very proud

49:58

of it. It's all upload did into a platform

50:01

in the clouds, and we're

50:04

now in a hundred and four villages throughout

50:06

all the Chimp range in

50:08

Tanzania and in six other

50:10

African countries, and

50:13

the people are now our partners

50:16

in conservation. All of these villages.

50:18

We have our youth program Roots and Choots

50:20

in the schools. In all the schools,

50:23

so all the children from

50:25

kindergarten through university

50:28

in sixty five countries plus

50:31

are choosing projects

50:33

to make the world a better place. A project

50:36

to help people, a project help animals,

50:39

a project help the environment. HM.

50:42

I love it and I think it's so important,

50:45

especially as we take

50:47

stock of what's happening around the world, you

50:49

realize that so many of these places,

50:52

you know, chimp territories that you're talking about,

50:54

and other regions around the world that are rich

50:57

in resource are often

50:59

cannibal by larger foreign

51:02

capitalist corporate

51:05

systems. And to create

51:07

as you have a platform

51:10

for people to understand the

51:12

value of their spaces

51:15

is profound. I mean it. It was profound

51:17

for me to be parts of part of Roots and Shoots as

51:19

a little kid. And I know we spoke

51:22

about this before, but for

51:24

the listeners at home, I've touched on this a little

51:26

bit um over the last year.

51:28

But the silver lining for me

51:31

of this slow down, shutdown,

51:34

you know, experience of working from

51:36

home in the pandemic was really being

51:39

able to cultivate

51:42

my little bit of land in the city

51:44

I live in and plant an abundance

51:46

of trees and and

51:49

I'm I'm keeping bees. I have two huge

51:51

beehives in a garden. And to see

51:53

the way that even in

51:55

this yard that I didn't think I could

51:57

do anything with, I've been able to

52:00

create a little ecosystem.

52:02

It's it's really inspired me that there's

52:05

no project too

52:07

big or too small if

52:09

we lean into fostering

52:12

healthy land. Yeah. Well,

52:14

that's the main message of Roots

52:16

and Shoots, which is for everybody that every

52:18

individual matters has a role to play.

52:21

And every day we live, we make a difference

52:24

on the planet, and we can choose what

52:26

sort of difference we make. What we buy, Where

52:28

did it come from, did it all on the environment,

52:31

was it ruled to animals? Is it cheap

52:33

because of unfair wages or

52:35

forced labor? And But

52:39

until that, part

52:41

of what we need to do to make

52:44

a better world is to think how we

52:46

live on the sort of ecological footprint

52:49

we make. But that can't work until

52:51

we alleviate poverty, because if you're

52:53

really poor, you can't make those choices.

52:56

You have to buy the cheapest. Um.

53:00

We can't ask how it was made, you

53:02

can't talk about the ethics of it.

53:04

You just have to buy the cheapest to

53:07

survive. So, you know, there's an

53:09

awful lot we have to do. We

53:11

have to alleviate poverty.

53:14

We have to do something about the unsustainable

53:17

lifestyle of the rest of us.

53:19

We have to

53:21

make sure that environmental and

53:24

humanitarian education is in all

53:26

the schools. We

53:29

have to think about our

53:31

population because right now there's seven

53:33

point I think it's seven now some point

53:35

seven billion of us and

53:38

it's estimated by twenty fifties

53:40

will be closer to ten billion.

53:43

And already we're using up

53:45

natural resources in some place as

53:47

faster than nature can replenish them. So

53:49

what's going to happen. We

53:52

cannot go on with business as usual,

53:54

and hopefully this pandemic

53:56

has woken people up. We must

53:59

find a new relationship with the

54:01

natural world and animals. We

54:03

must because otherwise

54:06

our species will become extinct.

54:09

It's not just the rest of the animals with

54:11

climate change and biodiversity loss,

54:13

it's us. Yes, So

54:16

if we care about our children, we

54:18

need to change the way. We

54:21

need to change mindsets. And

54:23

you touched on that when you talked about

54:26

as we encroach into more

54:29

wild spaces, we

54:31

are responsible for creating the

54:34

rise in zoonotic diseases. We see

54:37

viruses like the Avian flu and

54:41

this year COVID nineteen. These are

54:43

caused by environmental stress

54:45

and destruction done by humans.

54:48

Can can you explain for

54:51

people who are less familiar with that science

54:53

than you are as an expert, how

54:56

human activity contributes to

54:58

epidemics. Well,

55:00

one thing, we penetrate deeper

55:02

and deeper into animal habitats

55:05

and force some species closer to

55:07

humans and occasionally,

55:10

that creates an environment

55:12

where it's relatively easy for a

55:14

pathogen like a virus to jump

55:17

from an animal to a person where it

55:19

may form a new disease. And

55:22

in addition, we hunt them,

55:25

we sell them in wildlife

55:27

markets, we traffick them around the world,

55:30

We cram them into tiny factory

55:33

farms in cruel conditions,

55:35

and all these stressed, distressed

55:38

animals um it apparently

55:40

makes it easier for a

55:42

pathogen to jump over to a human.

55:45

And so these so called zoonotic

55:48

diseases, you know, this

55:50

pandemic is one, and then there was stars,

55:52

and then there was Mars and HIV

55:56

aids. All

55:58

were zoonotic diseases. They

56:01

say seventy of

56:03

all newly emerging diseases

56:05

in humans is from

56:08

animals. M hm. So

56:11

we need all have a different relationship

56:13

with animals and treat them as they

56:15

are sentient beings with feelings

56:18

and personalities. And that's

56:20

why the talks going on now

56:22

at fairly high levels to ban

56:25

the wildlife trade so important.

56:27

But it's not going to be easy because it's a

56:30

multi billion dollar um

56:32

industry, this illegal

56:35

wildlife trade. When I see

56:37

those photos of people out sport

56:39

hunting I just can't. I

56:42

truly can't understand it. I can't

56:44

understand how someone feels

56:46

tough killing

56:48

an animal for fun.

56:52

I genuinely it feels um.

56:55

It feels like a rip in the matrix. To me, I

56:57

just go, what are you doing? It's horrible

57:00

and and I think about ways

57:02

to combat that culture,

57:04

but also to your point, create

57:08

new relationships to the way that we live and

57:10

interact with animals. And I

57:13

do think that we need

57:17

policy to change bands on the wildlife

57:19

trade, bands on sport hunting,

57:22

all of those things. And

57:25

I think again, bringing it back to the

57:27

advocacy that you do and the empowerment

57:30

uh the potential that we find

57:32

when we empower communities, when

57:35

we think about protecting

57:39

wildlife zones, protecting wetlands,

57:41

which you know, speaking of climate change,

57:43

can help save humans from the effects of things

57:46

like hurricanes. When

57:48

you support

57:51

through the Institute the Trillion Trees

57:53

Initiative, for example, I

57:56

think about reforesting

57:58

the earth and and tactic

58:00

for us and keeping us farther

58:03

from these wildlife habitats.

58:06

That to me feels like something I want to lean

58:08

into, and I imagine a lot of listeners will

58:11

as well. Can you describe

58:14

trillion trees and tell people how they

58:16

might get involved. Well,

58:18

the trillion Tree campaign

58:21

was launched at DeVos two years ago.

58:23

Only two years ago. Wow,

58:27

yeah, I was launched

58:29

by UM Salesforce.

58:31

I helped to launch it. UM.

58:33

It's not that the trillion trees

58:36

I mean doesn't really mean much to me. What's

58:39

important to me is that we

58:41

need to protect the protecting

58:43

is far more important. Protect the forests

58:45

we have left with their rich biodiversity.

58:48

And you know, yes, we should also

58:51

plant trees, but it's going to

58:53

take a while for trees, especially

58:55

in temperate zones, to

58:58

grow big enough to absorb the necessary

59:00

amount of c O two.

59:03

But the Chinese have a wonderful proverb.

59:06

The best time to plant a tree is twenty

59:08

years ago. The second best time

59:10

is now and so.

59:13

But you know what's important planting

59:15

a tree isn't just sticking a tree

59:17

in the ground. It's got to be the right species,

59:20

the right time of year, and the right soil,

59:22

and it's got to be looked after.

59:25

So sometimes these huge government

59:28

initiatives where they say we're going to

59:30

try to plant a million trees in a week

59:32

or something, how many

59:34

of those trees live and very

59:36

often when it's investigated, not

59:39

many do. So the

59:42

Trees for Jane has very

59:44

tough standards and

59:47

the price to plant a tree in

59:49

our project is more

59:52

than many others because it includes

59:54

after care of the tree. And

59:57

so we Trees for Jane is

59:59

in support of this large,

1:00:02

trilliant tree which is more dealing

1:00:05

with big corporations and governments

1:00:07

and were grassroots and

1:00:10

that that was a piece that was missing from the

1:00:13

Trillion Trees. So they're very

1:00:15

happy about it. I love that.

1:00:18

So how can how can the average

1:00:20

listener then assistant

1:00:22

advocating for the kind of reforestation

1:00:26

that you're talking about? Firstly and most

1:00:28

importantly protecting habitats

1:00:30

that exist, and then secondly,

1:00:33

when trees are being planted

1:00:35

in initiatives like this, to make

1:00:38

sure that they're cared

1:00:40

for and fostered to survive,

1:00:42

so that you know, by the time we're

1:00:46

all grandparents,

1:00:49

those trees will still be living. How how

1:00:51

best can we use our voices for that? Well,

1:00:53

we've picked Trees for Jane has picked

1:00:56

I think it's five partners.

1:00:58

Remember it's very new. When we haven't we

1:01:00

haven't got there yet. But there is a website

1:01:03

and you can click on a button which

1:01:05

says that you want to help

1:01:08

protect forests, and that means with

1:01:10

our six partners who who haven't

1:01:14

trusted track record mum

1:01:18

money goes to to the

1:01:20

projects that are protecting forests,

1:01:22

and it will go to things like forest monitors

1:01:25

and rangers and all the people who

1:01:27

are protecting these forests and

1:01:29

woodlands. And you can also

1:01:31

just press a button and

1:01:34

pay a certain amount of money to

1:01:36

plant it if you plant a tree, or pay

1:01:39

for the tree to be planted by people

1:01:41

planting trees. But these are all

1:01:44

going to projects that have got a

1:01:46

good track record, and

1:01:48

there are three scientists

1:01:51

who are monitoring where

1:01:54

the money goes. Wonderful,

1:01:56

So that's you know, that's how

1:01:58

that's how you can end as well as

1:02:00

we possibly can that the tree

1:02:03

will survive. Mm hmm.

1:02:06

And what about for listeners who

1:02:08

want to help to protect endangered species?

1:02:11

How can they get more involved

1:02:13

in your work? Well, there are a lot of organizations

1:02:15

protecting endangered species and

1:02:18

you can find it all on the website. You

1:02:20

know, people want to well our roots

1:02:22

and shoots groups. We have groups

1:02:25

protecting coala's, protecting

1:02:27

pangolins, protecting rhinos,

1:02:30

protecting chimps, protecting guerrillas.

1:02:33

We all around the world are

1:02:35

young people because they can choose their

1:02:37

projects, so you know they all have different

1:02:39

You knows a lot protecting turtles.

1:02:42

There's a big push now across

1:02:44

the US to protect the migration

1:02:47

route of the monarch butterfly. And you

1:02:49

can do such a lot by plant

1:02:51

allowing milkweed to grow in your

1:02:54

in your yard. So there's

1:02:56

all kinds of different ways. And if you just

1:02:59

browse around in the internet about

1:03:01

protecting endangered species, you'll find

1:03:04

hundreds of ways you can help. And

1:03:06

if somebody wants to help something different, you can't

1:03:09

help them all, but

1:03:11

but we can all lean into something

1:03:14

and that feels exciting. I

1:03:17

I'm curious, Jane, because it seems to me that

1:03:19

you are constantly leaning into more

1:03:22

more books, and more advocacy and more

1:03:24

speaking engagements or more zooms,

1:03:26

and and you're even leaning into a podcast.

1:03:29

And I love that you've called it the Jane Got All

1:03:31

Hope Cast because you always

1:03:34

come back to Hope. I'm curious

1:03:36

how you would describe your show

1:03:39

to someone who might be a

1:03:41

potentially new listener. Well,

1:03:43

the hope cost is choosing

1:03:45

people from different different

1:03:48

spheres with different expertise

1:03:52

um and talking to them,

1:03:54

and always it's about yes,

1:03:57

what's gone wrong, but positive

1:03:59

ways, so people who have solutions

1:04:03

to some of the problems. So it's

1:04:05

not just the kind of doom and gloom we get

1:04:07

from so much of the media, but

1:04:10

it's yes, there are these terrible

1:04:12

problems. It's like that dark tunnel, but

1:04:15

there are solutions. We know. We've got

1:04:17

these amazing brains. We

1:04:20

know how to restore

1:04:23

health to damage soil

1:04:25

damaged by our stupid agriculture

1:04:27

or that we've built over it or something.

1:04:30

There are ways and we know that we know what they

1:04:32

are. We just have to get more governments

1:04:35

to subsidize these projects,

1:04:38

and we can use renewable

1:04:41

energy. And again, governments

1:04:43

prefer very often to

1:04:46

to subsidize oil and gas. It's

1:04:48

sort of sort of old cronies network,

1:04:52

and so it's changing attitude,

1:04:55

changing mindset, which I

1:04:57

try to do through telling stories. So

1:05:00

in the Hope Cost we tell a lot

1:05:02

of stories and they're

1:05:04

about very different like we've done one

1:05:07

on under the Sea with Craig

1:05:10

Foster, who did My Octopus

1:05:13

Teacher. We've talked

1:05:15

with the environmental head of Apple,

1:05:18

We've talked with I

1:05:22

can't remember now, I mean, I've done so many

1:05:24

other things as well as Hope cost so

1:05:26

many other people's podcasts and hope

1:05:30

you know, I mean, my mind is

1:05:32

so choker block, I

1:05:34

can't remember what I've done. You've

1:05:37

done a lot, Jane, You've done a lot, and you've

1:05:40

inspired so many of us, and

1:05:42

I'm so grateful you've taken the time today to

1:05:44

come on this podcast. And

1:05:47

as the theme of it goes, I'm

1:05:49

very curious to ask you this question.

1:05:53

Given all you've done, you know, the accolades,

1:05:55

the awards. Again,

1:05:57

most recently we saw each other for the Templeton

1:06:00

Prize. You You've you've shown

1:06:02

up in such immense ways for the

1:06:04

planet, for people, for animals.

1:06:07

What as you look

1:06:09

at everything you're doing now, what in your life

1:06:12

feels like a work in progress?

1:06:14

To you? Which is at work in progress?

1:06:17

I mean, I've always said that you

1:06:20

know, when you when you think ahead

1:06:22

to where you want to go, you better

1:06:25

aim for the stars. You might get to the moon.

1:06:27

If you're any aim for the moon, you might get to the

1:06:30

top of Everest. So I like aiming

1:06:32

for the stars. So goal is to

1:06:34

get roots and chootes into as

1:06:36

many schools as possible, and it is

1:06:38

kindergarten through university and

1:06:41

and beyond and

1:06:43

create a critical mass

1:06:46

of people who understand that.

1:06:49

Of course we need money to live, most

1:06:52

of us, but it goes wrong

1:06:54

when we live for money unless

1:06:56

we live to make money to help make the

1:06:59

world a better place, which

1:07:01

is a good thing to do, especially if

1:07:04

the money goes to the Jane Goodle Institute

1:07:06

for all our projects, which I know a good

1:07:09

they're changing. You know, you can't

1:07:11

imagine the number of Roots and Shoots

1:07:14

people who who write

1:07:16

to me and say, well, it's

1:07:18

changed my life. I never used to think

1:07:20

like this. Now now I know that

1:07:22

there is a way forward and I'm going to do my

1:07:25

bid. You know, when I

1:07:27

go to China we started there in nine,

1:07:30

adults come up to me and say, well, of course

1:07:32

I care about animals in the environment. I

1:07:34

was in Roots and Shoots in primary school,

1:07:38

so it has literally and also young

1:07:40

people are changing their parents and

1:07:42

their grandparents all the time.

1:07:46

It's wonderful. That's

1:07:48

really wonderful. What Jane. Thank you. Thank

1:07:50

you for your work and your activism,

1:07:53

the programs that you've made so accessible

1:07:55

to so many of us, and for joining

1:07:57

us today