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2:50

Sophia. Welcome to work in progress.

3:03

Welcome back to Work

3:05

in Progress friends. I am

3:07

so excited to sit down

3:10

with one of my favorite

3:12

personalities, comedians, storytellers, girlies. Today,

3:14

we are joined by Dylan

3:16

Mulvaney. She is here to

3:18

talk about her new book,

3:21

Paper Doll, Notes from a

3:23

Late Bloomer. In this book,

3:25

Dylan pulls back the curtain

3:27

on her life from the

3:30

It Girl Online lifestyle to

3:32

witty and intimate reflections of

3:34

her journey, both pre and post-transition,

3:36

family, school, memories, dealing with the

3:39

internet, theater, manifesting being a Broadway

3:41

diva, all of it. Today we

3:44

are going to dig into the

3:46

emotional journey of identity. We're going

3:48

to laugh quite a bit about

3:51

how ridiculous life can be and

3:53

we're going to talk about why

3:55

this book is a love letter

3:58

to every single person. The stand

4:00

up for queer joy.

4:02

Let's dive in with

4:05

Dylan Mulvaney. Hey. Hi.

4:07

I'm so happy you're

4:09

here. But it's funny

4:11

because I feel we

4:13

did just see each other

4:15

two days ago. We did.

4:17

But we didn't get enough

4:19

air time. No, and that

4:21

was also a bit of

4:23

a. Whirlwind it's such a

4:26

great event. Yes, but tell

4:28

the people overwhelming tell the

4:30

people where we were so

4:32

we were at the Elton

4:34

John AIDS Foundation Giant

4:37

Academy Awards fundraiser

4:39

Amazing gala dinner. Yeah

4:41

Chapel Rhone. Oh my god. You've

4:43

been to this before. Yes. How

4:46

many times? Three maybe? Okay,

4:48

I think this is my

4:50

first one. I'm also really happy

4:52

because I've been on a few

4:55

podcasts lately We're like they're

4:57

like this comes out in

4:59

five months, but this one

5:01

will actually come out so soon so

5:03

we can like talk about it

5:05

But that's because this is coming

5:08

out because of we're talking about

5:10

my book and my book comes

5:12

out next week and I'm

5:14

so excited. Do you take baths?

5:16

I should I can already take this ADHD

5:19

is going to be kicking in for both

5:21

of us pretty soon. It's hard for me to

5:23

sit in a bath. Well, yeah, I think that

5:25

I like to bring all my activities. So I

5:27

like a book, I like to memorize lines in

5:30

the bath, I like to do a computer, but

5:32

you can learn the hard way. I've lost

5:34

like maybe three phones in one laptop

5:36

in the bathtub. Dropped. Done. But you're

5:38

alive. But you're alive. I'm here.

5:40

Apple, that's the one thing that really

5:43

got that really got going that really

5:45

got going. If it goes in, you're not

5:47

going down with it. You'll survive. Okay.

5:49

It's a glowing endorsement, really. But I

5:52

feel like my voice is kind of

5:54

starting to give Sophia Bush a little

5:56

bit after our night out on Sunday.

5:58

After our night. I. turned into a pumpkin

6:01

and I don't know if it was

6:03

the fact that I was wearing the

6:05

biggest heels I've ever worn in my

6:07

life or if life has just been

6:09

so intense you know in the current

6:11

horror times that I'm emotionally exhausted but

6:13

once chapel was done it was like

6:16

I ceased being plugged into the battery

6:18

and I just I shut down and

6:20

I had to to bed you left

6:22

I was gonna say I didn't see

6:24

you but that was what was crazy

6:26

about then a whole new group of

6:28

people came there was the after party

6:30

to the party yes and and so

6:33

it was like a whole new but

6:35

we had been there for hours and

6:37

hours and so that that was a

6:39

lot in a good way it was

6:41

and we're at the same table we

6:43

had some really cute people with us

6:45

cutie under two hands so adorable Michaela

6:48

J Rodriguez absolute queen I love seeing

6:50

her it's always so fun to see

6:52

Bobby oh my god yes and you

6:54

were you with who's your co -worker

6:56

that you are that was my manager

6:58

yes he's so cute and such he's

7:00

like my best friend and manager yeah

7:02

he's so lovely and then Ashlyn and

7:05

I were there and Renee our sweet

7:07

friend Renee Stubbs came with us and

7:09

yeah it was just a great night

7:11

we had a nice crew you know

7:13

what did bother me was that I

7:15

didn't feel like people were lively enough

7:17

for Chapel Roan I didn't see enough

7:20

dancing like people were in it but

7:22

I'm used to like thrusting my body

7:24

for that H -O -T -T -O -G there wasn't

7:26

a ton of room to there wasn't

7:28

a lot of room every I felt

7:30

like we were doing very tiny it

7:32

was yeah sad but I will say

7:34

it felt like watching queer history like

7:37

wow that them singing together it was

7:39

incredible unreal and I was standing next

7:41

to her dad for a while and

7:43

it was like watching him kind of

7:45

like take it in was really sweet

7:47

yeah we talked a lot about it

7:49

on Monday after you know we were

7:52

all kind of recapping the night and

7:54

watching the way Elton looked at her

7:56

and watching the way she was looking

7:58

at Elton it it felt Yeah,

8:00

like such a such a

8:02

historic moment across these generations

8:05

of queerness and activism

8:07

and an advocacy and I

8:09

don't know it made me really emotional.

8:12

It was the that was where the

8:14

gays were like we were in that

8:16

room and I saw chapel in 2023

8:19

at the Wiltern in LA and the

8:21

only thing that I could compare it

8:23

to was that that scene in Rocketman

8:26

where like everyone's in the doing the

8:28

crocodile rock and everyone starts

8:30

to float off the you know like

8:32

off their feet into the air and that

8:34

is how I felt at this concert of

8:36

like you know maybe like 900 people

8:39

watching chapel yeah and then now seeing

8:41

her do that like it kind of

8:43

had that like she's now like my

8:45

Elton John for so many people

8:47

who have grew up with Elton John.

8:49

And I just thought oh. That was

8:51

fine. I had a good time. Me

8:54

too. Did you like the party? I

8:56

liked the party. I got to see

8:58

lots of friends. And, but I went

9:00

to a West Hollywood gay bar

9:02

afterwards, which is, it's a rare occasion

9:05

that I do that. But you did

9:07

it. I was in Taco Bell at

9:09

the end of the night. Did you

9:11

order food? I was honestly so tired

9:13

that I didn't even order late

9:15

night tacos, which is rare for

9:17

me. Where would you order for

9:19

me? Taco's 1986, we have quesaddos,

9:21

we have cactus, which is really

9:23

my, oh gee, oh my god,

9:25

I just get Taco Bell. Isn't

9:27

that so sad? Oh, I have

9:29

to take you. Yeah, you're gonna

9:32

take you. We have a tour. We

9:34

have a tour. And now we have

9:36

a little time. There's less events

9:38

now. Yes. And I think that

9:40

yesterday was, it was a bad

9:42

hangover day for me. Today I feel

9:44

alive. I feel like I want to be

9:46

a little more selective. Where did

9:48

I, I saw you again on,

9:50

what was the other thing that I

9:52

saw, oh, Women of the Year? Yeah,

9:55

time was cool. Oh my God, and

9:57

that one was, um, uh, levé or,

9:59

um, you know, singer, the, uh, the, uh, the,

10:01

uh, Leyve. Yes, she was wonderful.

10:03

She did that, uh, song, keep

10:06

on going with your crazy

10:08

dreams, like, to your, it

10:10

was, like, to your 12-year-old

10:12

self, I think. And I

10:14

was, like, I don't think

10:16

my 12-year-old self would have ever

10:19

imagined being at this, like, like, women

10:21

of the year for time gala, like,

10:23

how lucky. Am I to be in

10:25

this room with all these gals? Yeah,

10:28

it was so special. It was really

10:30

cool. And I want, I think about

10:32

that for you and what an amazing

10:35

sort of connection to that song

10:37

because, you know, we talked about this a

10:39

little bit last time you came on the

10:41

podcast. It was basically a year

10:43

ago. Yeah, I feel like I'm part of

10:45

the Pawn family now. You are and I love

10:47

it. But I, you know, I always think about

10:50

how you would interact with your

10:52

younger self. And one of the

10:54

things that I think is so

10:56

beautiful in the book is

10:58

that you actually dedicated it

11:01

to your oldest best friend

11:03

Lily. Yes, hi Lily. And I

11:05

loved watching you tell her that

11:07

the book is dedicated to her.

11:10

Oh my gosh. You wrote the girl

11:12

who helped show me the way.

11:14

What does it feel like now to

11:16

sort of look back at? you were

11:18

younger self. You know, the girl that

11:20

Leyve sang too, the girl that you

11:23

grew up with and Lily, the girl

11:25

that she always recognized in you. Yeah.

11:27

Even perhaps before you did, it must be

11:30

so surreal from this place to look

11:32

back at it. Well, I think that

11:34

so little of like what's happening right

11:36

now feels like normal, like and

11:38

it still feels like I'm either

11:40

living in a dream or a nightmare

11:42

and Lily is like the one

11:44

constant that like... when I'm around

11:47

her, it reminds me of

11:49

what life looked like before,

11:51

not only transition, but like

11:53

this industry and in this

11:55

town, and in having her here

11:57

with me, going to these events.

11:59

You know, being my plus one is

12:02

like, it's a dream. We met when

12:04

we were 10 doing high school musical.

12:06

She was in the basketball ensemble. I

12:08

was Ryan and she was pissed that

12:11

she wasn't sharp. But I think that

12:13

like, having that person that has known

12:15

you longer than, you know, anyone and

12:17

has loved you through all of the

12:19

different chapters, I think it feels

12:22

really good because I feel like I'm

12:24

still constantly meeting people trying

12:26

to like either. you know, convince them

12:28

of what it is that I want

12:30

to do or who I am or

12:33

what my identity should look like

12:35

for them because it's the way that

12:37

I see myself. But for her

12:39

I don't have, there's no explanation

12:42

necessary. Who is your lily? Like

12:44

from back in the day. Oh my gosh.

12:46

I moved a lot as a kid and

12:48

so I don't have so many people

12:50

who stretch. Like, wait, wait, wait,

12:52

wait, wait, I don't really have

12:54

anybody before middle school. And there's

12:56

four of us from my middle

12:58

school and high school that are

13:00

still really close. But my, like,

13:02

my, my lily is, is my

13:04

best friend, yeah. You know, we've

13:06

been at it for almost 20

13:08

years together. And, where'd you meet?

13:10

We met at a conference way

13:13

back in the day before they were

13:15

cool or like branded, you know,

13:17

they didn't, our conference queen. Well, that

13:19

is one thing I will say I

13:21

was thinking about when because you

13:23

know we talked about going to

13:26

Paris together last year and Oh,

13:28

was that maybe was that before we

13:30

did the podcast or I think

13:32

it was after I think it was after

13:34

we had a really fun trip to Paris

13:37

for a conference and a lovely

13:39

man that worked at CAA was there and

13:41

he's like, you know, who always will show

13:43

up, you know, when you ask her and

13:46

when you need her for something is Sophia

13:48

Bush. And so like you've been doing this

13:50

for a long time in the best way

13:52

and like you really are someone that

13:55

people trust and also that like

13:57

you come through for people in really

13:59

big ways. I think showing up is

14:01

really important. Yeah. And it's certainly a

14:03

love language for me. I know how

14:05

meaningful it is when people do it

14:08

for me. And I think, you know,

14:10

the way Nia and I bonded and

14:12

built our friendship, you know, out of

14:14

that space, she cracked a joke. Like,

14:17

why is the girl from TV here

14:19

taking notes like a court stenographer? Right.

14:21

And I looked back at her and

14:23

I said, I went to journalism school.

14:25

My notes are very good. Do you

14:28

need a copy? And then we've been

14:30

best friends ever since. Oh my God.

14:32

And I think for us, we've always

14:34

been really mission aligned. And it's weird

14:37

to me when mission isn't part of,

14:39

you know, someone's life or their ethos.

14:41

And I think it's probably why so

14:43

many of us find each other because

14:46

yes, you want to be creative and

14:48

tell stories and have joy and you

14:50

also want to. Make the world around

14:52

you a little kinder and we want

14:54

to have a reason like even it

14:57

drives me crazy If I if I'm

14:59

doing like a photo shoot and I

15:01

don't understand like who is this for?

15:03

What is that? You know? It might

15:06

just be a picture and I might

15:08

look pretty but like is there what

15:10

else is here to like go off

15:12

of and? No matter what it is

15:15

I think I want to figure out

15:17

what is the reason behind something. And

15:19

why am I doing it? Why am

15:21

I writing this book? Why did you

15:23

make this podcast? There has to be

15:26

something other than the surface behind it.

15:28

Even if it is just to bring

15:30

a little joy or to make someone

15:32

laugh, like that can't be enough in

15:35

some cases. But why did you want

15:37

to write the book? I wanted to

15:39

write the book. I think at first,

15:41

this book is... become a lot of

15:44

different things because I sold it really

15:46

early on around days of girlhood and

15:48

I thought it was going to be

15:50

this fluffy little piece of fun for

15:53

people to have on their coffee table

15:55

about you know with diary entries for

15:57

my first year and I grew up

15:59

reading like Chelsea handler and all these

16:01

really fun, you know, female comedian

16:04

books. So I wanted to make

16:06

people laugh and I wanted to be

16:09

a little raunchy. And then

16:11

once Beargate happened, I knew

16:13

that it needed to be something very

16:15

different. And so it ended up

16:17

being this thing that was deeply

16:20

healing for me and I, because

16:22

I still in some ways had this

16:24

like bowling ball sitting on my

16:26

chest, not being able to

16:28

articulate. what happened or how I

16:30

felt about it and I wanted people

16:33

to know because I built my

16:35

platform on telling people things. And

16:37

I think this feels like a much

16:39

safer medium than social media

16:42

does right now for me. And

16:44

I think it's something that I never

16:46

thought I would get to write a

16:48

book in my life. So it's

16:50

I think probably the thing I'm

16:52

most proud of now and I'm

16:54

scared because I love it, and

16:56

I don't know yet how the

16:58

world is going to interpret that.

17:00

But would you ever write

17:02

a book? I've been dodging

17:05

the question for about eight

17:07

years. And now you can't

17:09

because you're holding my

17:11

hand. Here we are. Yeah,

17:13

people have approached me

17:15

a few times about it. And

17:17

I think I'm finally in

17:20

a place where I'm ready to

17:22

think about that. I think there

17:24

was a time where it felt,

17:26

when my team first came to

17:29

me with the idea, at first

17:31

it felt a little premature.

17:33

And now I think I

17:36

understand that feeling better

17:38

because I understand so

17:40

many things about myself

17:42

better. But it's, it's.

17:45

Terrifying to think about. And I think

17:47

if you just don't frame it as like

17:49

a memoir, like I always think of like,

17:51

yeah, come on, like we're not 80. Right.

17:53

I can't write my memoirs now. And that's

17:55

what I really, because some people still

17:57

classify this like as a memoir.

18:00

Or I'm so scared to say memoir.

18:02

Like is that, because I feel like

18:04

I'm from like Wisconsin and I'm talking

18:06

about this book that I wrote called,

18:08

and it's not a memoir. It's like, it's

18:10

a hard word to say, can you

18:12

say, memoir? Memoir. Memoir. Okay, okay, we're

18:14

settling on it. It helps if you,

18:17

if you, if you, yeah, if you

18:19

try to sound a little bit like

18:21

the, like a phone sex operator, memoir,

18:23

memoir, memoir, memoir, memoir, memoir, memoir, memoir,

18:26

memoir, memoir. It comes out easier, right.

18:28

It comes out easier, right. I love

18:30

you! And it will fit a memoir

18:33

in that. Two Babies with ADHD, together

18:35

for a podcast. So I like

18:37

that, I call it my like

18:39

quarter life crisis book. Okay. And

18:41

I think because it's very specific

18:43

in the timeline, it's about my

18:45

transition, it's about after beer gate,

18:47

we do have some essays that

18:50

flash back to, you know, my

18:52

childhood, but not in a way that

18:54

feels like. this is everything that I

18:56

have to offer from age zero to

18:58

26. And that's all, you know, I

19:00

could never revisit any of these

19:03

topics. I wanted it to feel

19:05

like a Chelsea handler did a

19:07

lot of kind of essays early

19:09

on that I really like loved

19:11

reading as a teenager because it

19:13

felt like I didn't know that

19:16

we were allowed to comment on

19:18

our lives, you know, and it's kind

19:20

of also kind of Kerry Bradshaw

19:22

in the way that like. She

19:24

was writing about things so messily

19:26

and I haven't gotten to talk

19:28

a lot about like sex or

19:30

religion or things, you know, online

19:32

that felt a lot more fun

19:34

to put into a book. Yeah. Yeah.

19:36

And now a word from our sponsors

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stands behind their products with a

20:45

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20:47

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20:49

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20:52

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20:59

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21:01

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21:03

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21:08

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21:10

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21:12

our shift the rumor mill. We

21:15

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21:17

this kettle of tea is not

21:19

only piping hot but 100% true.

21:22

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21:24

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21:26

always pays to discover. Based on

21:28

the February 2024 Nielsen report, learn

21:31

more at discover.com/credit card. From prioritizing

21:33

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21:35

to simply creating space to check

21:38

on our well-being, happiness lab listeners

21:40

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21:42

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21:45

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21:47

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21:49

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21:51

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at apothecary.com. And I

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do think it's really important.

23:03

I like the references

23:06

you make. I love Chelsea's

23:08

books. And to your point,

23:10

one of the things I think...

23:12

We need more of is a

23:14

little bit of permission to be

23:16

messy. Humans are messy. My house right

23:19

now? Oh. It's a state. I also

23:21

like, I'm one of those people

23:23

that like, I will like have,

23:25

if I'm like, I clean my

23:27

entire place, it'll look amazing for

23:30

about 15 minutes, and then something

23:32

happens, and I don't know what

23:34

it is, but it then looks

23:36

almost worse than it did before

23:38

I cleaned it. So that's I

23:41

think like there and I've seen a few

23:43

the reviews are starting to roll out

23:45

and some of them are like oh

23:47

that you you know can be trickier to

23:49

find the timeline or it can you know

23:51

what are we in a journal entry

23:53

are we in an essay and there's

23:55

a little bit of that but I

23:57

kind of love that it's not about

23:59

the link. nature but rather like

24:01

what I'm learning and how I

24:04

learned it versus when. But

24:06

God I feel like life

24:08

sometimes only does your

24:10

life right now feel like it's

24:12

getting messier or you're

24:14

cleaning it up? Oh I

24:17

think I started a big

24:19

clean up a couple years

24:21

ago. My life feels very

24:23

full and I am

24:25

incredibly grateful for that.

24:27

and I would like to have a

24:30

little more space. And so I'm trying

24:32

to kind of recalibrate certain

24:34

things. Yeah. Because I actually

24:36

really like my life and I

24:38

want to be present for more

24:40

of it. Yes. And that feels

24:42

special. I feel the same. I feel like

24:45

this has been a really interesting time.

24:47

I've taken on a bit

24:49

too much I've learned. And so I'm

24:51

going to get through that and then

24:53

try to clean shop in other ways.

24:55

But I think... My biggest thing is

24:58

I like to show up 100% for

25:00

whatever it is that I'm doing, whether

25:02

that's an interview or a, you know,

25:04

a performance like I went like I

25:06

did the Edinburgh Fringe Festival last year

25:08

and I during that time, you know,

25:10

I had all these other things that

25:12

needed attention or my eyes on and

25:15

I basically was like, no, all I

25:17

want to do right now is work

25:19

on this show and I will be

25:21

so disappointed in myself if I don't.

25:23

give it my all and be like, oh,

25:25

well, I was trying to do a thousand

25:27

other things. So that is the part

25:29

that scares me of, like, being, like,

25:32

what that actually means of, of being

25:34

able to put your attention to

25:36

different things at the same time. I

25:38

feel that as well, because I wonder if

25:40

I just did one thing at a time,

25:42

would I maybe accomplish more at the

25:44

end? But also I have to... I

25:47

realize I have to be gentle with

25:49

myself and also trust myself. I am

25:51

curious about a lot of things. I

25:53

know our ADHD wants us to be

25:55

doing a lot at the same time.

25:57

How did you actually start down

25:59

the path of... comedy and writing

26:01

and the fringe festival

26:03

like now you've written

26:05

a book you you create so much

26:08

and I want to know how because

26:10

I don't think anyone else

26:12

is letting me do that like

26:14

no I'm not someone that's

26:16

being particularly like

26:19

tapped on for a thousand

26:21

different stories to tell and

26:23

so I think right now

26:25

the best option is to tell

26:27

my own because I'm such an active

26:29

member of my life and wanting to

26:31

be in this industry knowing that these

26:34

are going to be some of the

26:36

really integral years to what the rest

26:38

of it looks like. And so I

26:40

don't want to sit at home waiting for,

26:42

you know, I would love to just be

26:44

an actress and I would love

26:46

to just wait for the auditions

26:48

to come in and for the

26:50

parts to play. But right now,

26:52

that's, you know, limited for trans

26:54

women, especially me who I think

26:56

is, you know, shares quite publicly.

26:58

So I'm always trying to carve

27:00

out other ways of filling time.

27:02

And then I think what's fun

27:04

is when somebody does approach me

27:06

with an idea or an opportunity,

27:08

I can fit it in amongst

27:11

what I've already created,

27:13

but I'm not waiting for anyone

27:15

else. And I think there is

27:17

something frustrating and can

27:19

be exhausting of like always

27:22

trying to manufacture and trying

27:24

to tell a story or

27:26

get something off the ground. But

27:28

I'm proud that I'm, that I'm,

27:30

I feel quite, I'm usually quite

27:33

sub in certain situations. Okay.

27:35

But I feel very dumb

27:37

when it comes to my

27:40

career and my trajectory and

27:42

my creativity. Like I

27:44

think I really, after finding

27:46

my gender identity, I was

27:49

like, oh, this is what being

27:51

an artist can be now that

27:53

I've like figured some things

27:55

out within myself. And

27:58

I think. maybe

28:00

had things come a little easier

28:02

as far as like I you

28:04

know was on Broadway right now

28:06

doing eight shows a week I

28:09

probably wouldn't have written this book

28:11

and I I probably wouldn't have

28:13

you know started my podcast or

28:15

any of these things that I

28:17

think I need we need right

28:19

now I think and I do

28:22

think trans joy can look a

28:24

lot of different ways but this

28:26

book is probably the loudest version

28:28

of it for me in this

28:30

moment. I love that for you.

28:32

Yeah. And what it strikes me

28:35

as when you talk about sort

28:37

of taking control, it's agency. You

28:39

are taking agency of your creativity.

28:41

You are making the things that

28:43

you want and need that your

28:45

younger self probably needed to. And

28:48

I loved something that you said

28:50

Rolling Stone just did. a great

28:52

profile on you on the book

28:54

and it was such a sweet

28:56

way to clap back at people

28:58

who are so upset by trans

29:00

joy you said I'm not trying

29:03

to influence anyone to do anything

29:05

other than see a Broadway musical

29:07

period well that's my that's it

29:09

that's my trans agenda yeah and

29:11

hopefully that Broadway musical would have

29:13

a trans person in it but

29:16

it should be good but at

29:18

the very least go see fucking

29:20

cats you know like I'm I

29:22

just think that people are so

29:24

easy to project identities and activism

29:26

and all these things on to

29:29

you when if you really listen

29:31

to what the person is trying

29:33

to say or you know what

29:35

I've also think is crazy as

29:37

I've done interviews where I'm like

29:39

I am not an activist and

29:42

then they title the interview activists

29:44

still in Mulvaney and so it

29:46

is really crazy how sometimes loud

29:48

and clear and articulate you have

29:50

to be in order to get

29:52

people to figure out what it

29:55

is you want. So what would

29:57

you say you want? I would

29:59

like to be a Broadway diva.

30:01

who gets to tell stories, sometimes

30:03

my own, sometimes fictional. I want

30:05

to make people laugh, especially at

30:07

some of the dark things, like

30:10

through transness and identity. I would

30:12

love to make people think. I think

30:14

that's something that's newer on

30:16

my list of desires, because

30:18

for a long time I didn't

30:21

know that I could be vulnerable,

30:23

like publicly. That was kind of

30:25

against the laws of my family. You

30:27

know, we were supposed to... keep

30:29

those things to ourselves but now

30:32

I love it. And I think that

30:34

I would love to find love in

30:36

the hard places and help

30:38

other people figure that out

30:40

too. But in a lot of

30:42

those things, you know, could be as

30:44

stupid as in a sketch or in,

30:46

you know, a musical or what, they

30:49

don't have to all be in, you

30:51

know, at conferences or, you know,

30:53

speaking at the White House or

30:55

what, you know, whatever it is

30:57

that, that, Some people also might

30:59

assume that means. Yeah, I think

31:01

when you stand up for people,

31:03

stand up for yourself, stand up

31:05

for others, you can kind of

31:07

get cast as a very serious

31:09

person. Yeah. So many people think

31:12

I'm so serious. And then people

31:14

hang out with me and they're like,

31:16

oh, you're weird and really quirky

31:18

and funny. Right. We know how to have

31:20

a good time. Yeah. I actually will say,

31:22

though, some of the most serious people

31:25

are the ones that like to have

31:27

the most fun. potentially us in

31:29

a way that I don't think is

31:31

always fair. I think like I love

31:33

letting loose with people and

31:36

I think people can tell

31:38

that from social media, but

31:40

I also I'm definitely not

31:42

the trans girl that is is

31:44

ready to like, you know, give you every

31:47

single statistic and talk

31:49

about every single. you know, bill

31:51

or, you know, anti-trans legislation in

31:53

the works. And I feel guilty

31:55

about that sometimes, but then I

31:57

realize I'm like, oh, but there's like... So

32:00

many other dolls that are really

32:02

good at that and I can

32:04

do my best to figure out

32:06

how to connect them when those

32:09

opportunities come my way or you

32:11

know, and they have great conversations

32:13

like I'm going on a bunch

32:15

of talk shows next week and

32:18

I've talked to a bunch of

32:20

dolls about you know, what what

32:22

should I say? What do you

32:24

think is important for the community?

32:27

You know, trying to stay really

32:29

proactive so that when those questions

32:31

do come up, I'm ready. But

32:34

not leading with it. Well, one

32:36

thing I think is really important

32:38

is that that can't just fall

32:40

on you. Right. It can't just

32:43

be on trans women to advocate

32:45

for trans women. SIS women need

32:47

to show up and advocate for

32:49

you. In the same way that

32:52

when we talk about gender-based violence

32:54

around the world, that's actually, that's

32:56

a male problem. That is a

32:58

statistically male problem. If we scream

33:01

into the void about what women...

33:03

go through in the world and

33:05

men don't join us to say

33:07

men should stop assaulting women. Right.

33:10

We're in a vacuum. And so

33:12

I think I'm so glad you

33:14

feel like you get to be

33:16

your full self and I love

33:19

that you have a community that

33:21

helps you figure out what you

33:23

should use those platforms to say

33:25

in the moment. And I want

33:28

other folks to be reminded that...

33:30

We have to show up for

33:32

you too. Yes, thank you. But

33:34

it's also fascinating what's happening, I

33:37

think, when it comes to allyship,

33:39

because the far-right extremists are getting

33:41

really good at trying to scare

33:43

our allies away. And even this

33:46

was an example of getting my

33:48

makeup done by a really lovely

33:50

gay man last week, and he

33:52

was talking about this transvestigation over

33:55

this... very famous woman that you

33:57

know all these people are claiming

33:59

is a trans woman and and

34:01

all the reasons why they think

34:04

she's trans and I had to

34:06

explain to him that it was

34:08

like like deeply problematic because you

34:10

know whether this person was trans

34:13

or not they were trying to

34:15

cast her as this like monster

34:17

or this person hiding you know

34:19

secrets or deceiving the public and

34:22

and I had to explain that

34:24

like what they now want to

34:26

do is make cis women believe

34:29

that like being called trans or

34:31

you know being accused of being

34:33

a trans person is like the

34:35

worst you know thing. When reality,

34:38

it's like most trans girls I

34:40

know are really cute and we've

34:42

got our, you know, we've got,

34:44

we're working on it, we're getting

34:47

it together. But I find it

34:49

very problematic that a lot of

34:51

allies don't always know what is

34:53

transphobic, like, and, you know, we've

34:56

got to figure out those conversations,

34:58

but if it's pushing a notion

35:00

that like transness is evil or

35:02

you know, problematic, like, chances are

35:05

it's probably transphobic. Yeah. And so

35:07

it's interesting getting to still exist

35:09

in around so many icons and

35:11

especially these women that I call

35:14

friends and that support me publicly.

35:16

Like I had Lady Gagga last

35:18

year post on International Women's Day

35:20

or, you know, standing up for

35:23

me. And that's the kind of

35:25

shit where I'm like, There's still

35:27

the good ones and I'm here

35:29

with you right now. I think

35:32

that it makes me sad to

35:34

think that certain people would be

35:36

scared to be seen with the

35:38

trans person or to work with

35:41

us or hire us, but there's

35:43

so much power in saying, no,

35:45

I'm not going to live in

35:47

that fear or that people are

35:50

going to... or I caught my

35:52

product or not watch this television

35:54

show or unfallow because you support.

35:56

you know, a trans person, that's,

35:59

that is, it's, we can't give

36:01

into that. We cannot give into

36:03

that fear. I'm so tired of

36:05

being scared. Yeah. And now a

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listeners. Do we have this scoop

37:24

for you? So what is it,

37:27

you ask? It's that Discover is

37:29

accepted at 99% of places that

37:31

take credit cards nationwide. But before

37:33

you tell us to clock out

37:36

of our shift at the rumor

37:38

mill, we have proof that this

37:40

kettle of tea is not only

37:42

piping hot, but 100% true. So

37:45

yeah, sometimes it pays to be

37:47

a little nosy, but it always

37:49

pays to discover. Based on the

37:51

February 2024 Nielsen report, learn more

37:54

at discover.com/credit card. From prioritizing time

37:56

to keep our bodies active, to

37:58

simply creating space to check on

38:00

our well-being, happiness lab listeners take

38:03

their health very seriously. But when

38:05

it comes to treating complex issues

38:07

like heart disease, neurological disorders, or

38:09

even cancer, the right care can

38:12

make all the difference. That's why

38:14

Cleveland Clinic has been elevating world-class

38:16

patient care for over a century.

38:19

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38:21

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38:23

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38:25

for cancer, Cleveland Clinic continues to

38:28

redefine what's possible for every breakthrough

38:30

in health, for every care in

38:32

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38:34

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38:37

visiting Cleveland clinic.org today. This is

38:39

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38:41

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Amazon, and apothecary.com. That's apothecary with

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a K at apothecary.com. is you

39:19

do claim so much joy, you

39:22

do share so much happiness with

39:24

us, and you also aren't shying

39:26

away from the things that have

39:28

been hard, and you do talk

39:31

about beer gate, and you do

39:33

really bring us into what it

39:35

feels like to be targeted by

39:37

these far-right hate campaigns, but the

39:40

thing that hit me so hard

39:42

actually is... something you share in

39:44

the first 30 pages of the

39:46

book, and you talk about how

39:49

so many external opinions, you know,

39:51

you're one person on the internet,

39:53

millions of people can comment at

39:55

you, and talk about how so

39:58

many external opinions can create so

40:00

much noise, so much mental and

40:02

emotional noise that. that your darkest

40:04

thoughts, your self-loathing, your critique that

40:07

all of us have inside of

40:09

us, can suddenly be parroting the

40:11

worst of the comment section? Yes.

40:14

And how, and reading your words

40:16

when you talked about it, like,

40:18

took my breath away, because I

40:20

know exactly how that feels. It

40:23

honestly made me gasp, like I

40:25

heard myself gasp when I read

40:27

it, because I know how paralyzing

40:29

that feeling is. And how do

40:32

you get, how do you identify

40:34

it? How do you get out

40:36

of it? What's crazy is when

40:38

you can then, when you have

40:41

made enough progress to see that

40:43

you're quite literally at a crossroads

40:45

where you're like, I'm either going

40:47

to believe this, what they're saying

40:50

about myself, and I'm going to

40:52

take it on as part of

40:54

me, or I'm going to acknowledge

40:56

that what they're saying is not

40:59

true about myself, because I know

41:01

who I am. and let that

41:03

be the course that you take.

41:05

And I actually, even just yesterday,

41:08

we were talking about the Elton

41:10

John Party, I was interviewing people

41:12

on the carpet and I was

41:14

reading all these comments about, oh,

41:17

you know, this girl's so annoying,

41:19

she's standing too close to people,

41:21

she won't let her, you know,

41:23

people get a word, and all

41:26

these things, and I went, I

41:28

almost was like, oh, I'm going

41:30

to make a video now being

41:32

like, yeah, I'm annoying, I know

41:35

it. You just changed your opinion

41:37

about yourself based on these other

41:39

people and there are plenty other...

41:41

comments that loved it and that

41:44

were, you know, behind what I

41:46

was doing, but those other ones

41:48

were louder. And I think what

41:50

I had to do was not

41:53

only kind of take some distance

41:55

from taking an information about myself,

41:57

which is so hard to not

41:59

look, but I had to be

42:02

very clear about who I who

42:04

I was. I think I spent

42:06

kind of the last two years

42:09

since Biergate. Getting very specific about

42:11

what I know about myself to

42:13

be true So that now when

42:15

I put a book out and

42:18

have a lot of new critique

42:20

coming my way That I can

42:22

stand behind those things. Yeah, I

42:24

know I'm a musical theater girl

42:27

I know that I talk too

42:29

much I know that well that

42:31

even me just saying that that

42:33

was a projection of someone else

42:36

I that I love to talk

42:38

is how I'll rephrase that I

42:40

feel really beautiful most of the

42:42

time, but that I also can

42:45

sometimes get in my head and

42:47

that's often linked to dysphoria. I

42:49

know that I love to be

42:51

raunchy and that that's not something

42:54

to be ashamed of about myself.

42:56

And these are little things that

42:58

I think are helpful. Then when

43:00

I read those, I can kind

43:03

of go down the checklist and

43:05

be like, okay, so that's not

43:07

here already and I don't think

43:09

we need to add it. crazy

43:12

how great social media can be

43:14

and then how toxic it and

43:16

even the I think it goes

43:18

back to the press too in

43:21

the media of how they're pushing

43:23

transphobia because a lot of what

43:25

they're saying in these headlines are

43:27

like it's just um it's so

43:30

crazy how great social media can

43:32

be and then how toxic it

43:34

and and even the I think

43:36

it goes back to the press

43:39

too in the media of how

43:41

they're pushing transphobia. because a lot

43:43

of what they're saying in these

43:45

headlines are like deeply transphobic but

43:48

they're very clickbady. And those are

43:50

other, like, those actually, I have

43:52

an easier time laughing at because

43:54

it's like, it feels like this,

43:57

you know, news source that couldn't

43:59

be more incorrect, versus like seeing

44:01

a person's name on a screen

44:04

that's like leaving a specific comment,

44:06

because that feels in a weird

44:08

way more tangible, knowing there's like

44:10

a human behind it. Yeah, where

44:13

it's a bot, though. What are

44:15

bots? Could just be a bot.

44:17

I don't understand. Do you have

44:19

do you have bots? We've looked

44:22

into bots. Oh, oh, it's just

44:24

it's relentless and it's we need

44:26

like a queer bot farm that

44:28

like throws the good stuff out

44:31

there. Could you imagine someone like

44:33

doing it like sexy sassy commentary?

44:35

Oh, that would be nice. Who's

44:37

gonna pay for that? I don't

44:40

know. We need a gay billionaire

44:42

to put out. But I don't

44:44

think there are any benevolent billionaires.

44:46

Unfortunately. It could be us. And

44:49

then it's going to be us

44:51

making a good bot farm. Yeah,

44:53

I'm here for that. Is that

44:55

an oxymoron? A good bot farm?

44:58

Is it BOT by the way?

45:00

Yeah. What is bots, robot? Yeah,

45:02

like a robot. It's a little

45:04

digital terrorist essentially. I'm also getting

45:07

scared of like how are our

45:09

futures going to go with robots

45:11

and things. Yeah, me too. Everything

45:13

is crazy. I'm like the self-driving

45:16

cars. No. creeps me out. It

45:18

all creeps me out. But at

45:20

least we're entering into a future

45:22

where your book exists. Ooh, I

45:25

bet it's going to get banned

45:27

so fast. You know what's really

45:29

sort of hilarious but sad about

45:31

you saying that is my partner

45:34

was like, what is this enormous

45:36

box of book? What is this?

45:38

Like you need any more books?

45:40

And I said, oh, no, sorry,

45:43

last week I had to buy

45:45

all the books, the books, the

45:47

DOJ the DOJ band, just in

45:49

case. And I'm going, this is

45:52

so weird that I'm turning my

45:54

house into a book archive just

45:56

in case. say that was right

45:59

in the book I say like

46:01

I hope the words on this

46:03

page last longer than the videos

46:05

on my profile and Tiktok got banned

46:07

for a second there and I was

46:09

like oh shit I thought this was

46:12

gonna be like a nostalgic 50 years

46:14

from now sentence and now it's like the

46:16

reality but lot harder to get rid

46:18

of something physical like this then

46:20

to you know have a profile

46:22

disappear online push something and have

46:24

it go and I think what I

46:26

wrote about meeting Judy Bloom and my

46:29

book and I got to interview her

46:31

during literally the height of beer gate

46:33

and what had happened right before

46:35

I walked in that interview was I

46:37

got slammed coming out of a

46:39

woman's bathroom in the hotel that I

46:41

was interviewing Judy Bloom and they

46:43

were saying horrible things to me

46:45

up in my face. They had

46:48

totally trespassing but then I had

46:50

to walk into this interview with

46:52

Judy and I swear things just

46:54

happen when they're supposed to, and

46:56

you see the people that you

46:58

needed, because I felt so small

47:00

in that moment. And then getting

47:02

to talk to her, you know, this is a

47:04

woman who had her books banned years and

47:06

years ago, and like 70s and 80s,

47:08

and she looked at me at the

47:10

end, and she was like, do not

47:12

let anyone stop you from sharing

47:15

your story, from writing it down,

47:17

from putting it out there. She was

47:19

like, there's so much good to be

47:21

done. tried to make me feel like I

47:23

was, you know, evil or that I was

47:25

doing something that was corrupting the youth.

47:27

And she was like, but you have

47:30

to know what the purpose is of

47:32

something. And she was like, you've got

47:34

to put it out there. And

47:36

so like hearing that from like

47:39

Judy Bloom, that's somebody that's a

47:41

little bit better to be listening

47:43

to than Fox News, I would

47:45

say. Well, yeah, or some insane

47:47

person bombarding bombarding bathrooms. But you

47:49

know what is is wild to

47:51

me. And I think this is something

47:53

people miss again because you know they

47:56

have to create click bait and rage

47:58

in some ways. So they have. to make

48:00

everyone afraid of everyone.

48:03

And there's no way that

48:05

seeing you exists in

48:08

the world and be happy is

48:10

gonna turn some cis kid

48:12

trance. But what I know to

48:14

be true is that a

48:17

four-year-old who does what you

48:19

did and says to your mom,

48:21

God made a mistake, I'm

48:23

in the wrong body, could see

48:26

you and know that what

48:28

they're saying isn't. crazy

48:30

and that they're going to

48:32

be okay someday. Yes. And that

48:35

to me feels like such an

48:37

important thing in the world

48:39

to just make sure that people

48:42

don't feel alone. Right. And I've

48:44

now, what's been fascinating

48:46

since talking about that moment

48:48

with my mom, like so many

48:51

people, even in the industry,

48:53

have like come to me and

48:55

been like, hey, my kid is, you

48:58

know, going through this or permission

49:00

to have conversations and to

49:02

like get to the bottom of things in

49:04

a way that I think there was so

49:06

much shame about before and I even told

49:08

my family I was like I didn't paint

49:11

us as these like picture-perfect

49:13

people because we aren't and that's

49:15

not what our family is but

49:17

hopefully other people getting to see

49:20

our progress and that the fact that

49:22

we all still love each other and and

49:24

I feel so supported by them is

49:26

is actually way more beneficial than me.

49:28

painting it as like a pretty picture. Yeah.

49:31

Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the hardest

49:33

things about being a human in the

49:35

public eye is that you very rarely

49:38

get to go through something and process

49:40

it and then talk about it when

49:42

it's done. You kind of have to

49:44

process in real time out loud. And

49:46

I think that can be very toxic

49:48

because then your life gets treated

49:50

like it's a TV show or a

49:53

storyline and you're like, no, this is

49:55

happening to me. And it feels like.

49:57

It will never change. Like I. Yeah.

50:00

I now feel really removed from

50:02

certain ideas that were made about

50:04

me, like even being the trans

50:06

beer girl. And now years later,

50:08

I'm like, oh, I'm doing all

50:10

these other things that have nothing

50:12

to do with that. And I

50:14

thought that was gonna be the

50:16

way that I was interpreted forever,

50:18

but it's not. But it's not.

50:21

And I think it's beautiful to

50:23

see you go through certain things

50:25

publicly, process them, and then be

50:27

able to reflect. But I love

50:29

that some of the stuff about

50:31

you and your family. You've been

50:33

able to do both. You've been

50:35

able to do the real time,

50:37

but you've also been able to

50:39

take us in the book on

50:42

this journey backwards. And yeah, you've

50:44

been honest about it. And I

50:46

think honesty actually as a reader

50:48

makes me feel so hopeful for

50:50

my own family, for other families.

50:52

Well, I think you can tell

50:54

when some, especially if you're like

50:56

reading something of someone's like, you

50:58

can tell if. how it's being

51:01

spun as far as like, and

51:03

I was like, I want to

51:05

be as factual as I can

51:07

with like, how these moments went

51:09

down so that people can feel

51:11

whatever way that they feel about

51:13

them. And then there are moments

51:15

where I really get quite emotional

51:17

and show them kind of how

51:19

I was feeling mentally versus like

51:22

what was actually, you know, happening

51:24

in the world around me. And

51:26

a lot of that I think

51:28

in the book kind of slowed

51:30

where I went into Ayahuka in

51:32

Peru and I wrote about, you

51:34

know, this sort of like. I

51:36

wanted it to be this quick

51:38

fix. And what it really did

51:40

was it like started something in

51:43

myself that I was going to

51:45

end up, I'm still thinking about

51:47

so many of the things that

51:49

I found while I was down

51:51

there on that, it's weird to

51:53

call it a drug, it really

51:55

feels more like a medicine. It's

51:57

a medicine. Yes, would you ever

51:59

do Iowa? I have. Oh, wow.

52:01

Okay, have we, I don't know

52:04

if we've talked about that. We

52:06

need to. And it's also funny

52:08

because I think like when I

52:10

told people that I was going

52:12

down there to do that, there

52:14

was either certain... people were like,

52:16

that's amazing. I've always wanted to

52:18

do that. Tell me everything. And

52:20

then there are some people who

52:23

feel really uncomfortable by the idea

52:25

of like doing something a different

52:27

kind of way. And that was

52:29

like my work in progress was

52:31

to try it in a way

52:33

that was not offered to me

52:35

as a young person or in

52:37

my early year. Like just, you

52:39

know, if when when she really

52:41

hits the fan, doing in a

52:44

different way. Well, I think. A

52:46

lot of people are scared of

52:48

anything expansive. I think it's why

52:50

so many people are afraid of

52:52

trans people, because you challenge boundary

52:54

and binary, and you say there's

52:56

a more expansive way to be

52:58

a human. You know, our friend

53:00

O'Logue talks about this all the

53:02

time, that the freedom that you

53:05

have to claim to be trans

53:07

is terrifying to people that don't

53:09

feel free in their own lives.

53:11

And for me, you know, 10

53:13

years ago when I had this

53:15

like deeply prepared for, you know,

53:17

therapy involved, all the things, experience,

53:19

it was part of a larger

53:21

process of how do I begin

53:24

to not be stuck in this

53:26

way of thinking? How do I

53:28

begin to interrupt a feedback loop

53:30

and see other options that are

53:32

probably here, but that I'm not

53:34

seeing right and I think when

53:36

you can be well-researched and safe

53:38

and obviously you know ready ready

53:40

in whatever way ready can feel

53:42

because it doesn't always you know

53:45

you won't feel a hundred percent

53:47

ready but sure but I think

53:49

that's true for anything and and

53:51

when something calls to you when

53:53

something calls to you know I

53:55

built this whole life and I

53:57

built this whole life and I

53:59

off everything on my list like

54:01

a good girl. really don't like

54:03

it. And I think maybe I

54:06

deserve to like my life. That

54:08

I learned a few years ago

54:10

is a radical act. Yes. And

54:12

I think I think sometimes when

54:14

you are radically courageous people really

54:16

will shit on you for it.

54:18

But some people will also walk

54:20

up and hug you and say

54:22

you saved my life. And that

54:25

makes it worth it. I just

54:27

wish the internet was less prone

54:29

to shitting on people. I sometimes

54:31

I forget because I was you

54:33

know 14, the only like gay

54:35

person out at my high school,

54:37

like I forget that there are

54:39

so many adults that are still

54:41

grappling with these decisions that are

54:43

living these life, have children, have,

54:46

you know, jobs that like, that

54:48

they are trying to make the

54:50

most difficult decision to be themselves

54:52

possible. And I think I. I

54:54

have to always remember that it's

54:56

not always as easier available to

54:58

people as someone like me who

55:00

was really privileged to, although my

55:02

family was conservative and Catholic, I

55:04

didn't get thrown out of the

55:07

house and I found these pockets

55:09

of community like in theater where

55:11

some people don't have those places

55:13

to see gay people thriving. So

55:15

the internet is really good in

55:17

that way. Because people get to

55:19

watch things like this. I think

55:21

that it's I don't know. This

55:23

book coming out in 2025 is

55:26

crazy because it's a radical act.

55:28

Yes, but and even when it

55:30

was decided they would come out,

55:32

we didn't know who the president

55:34

was going to be. We didn't

55:36

know what trans legislation was going

55:38

to look like. And so I

55:40

have to trust that this is

55:42

the right time. And I don't

55:44

want to become a poster child

55:47

again, like how that felt like

55:49

it went down in 2022. But

55:51

I feel charged up in a

55:53

really good way, which is yummy.

55:55

How do you, when do you

55:57

feel the most like? When

56:00

you're feeling like really exhausted how

56:02

long does it take you to

56:05

get back into like Progress mode

56:07

or when you've like had a

56:09

big like what feels like maybe

56:11

a failure or When you know

56:13

something doesn't go your way that

56:15

you've been working so hard towards

56:17

how how long does it take

56:19

you to bounce back and then

56:21

when do you know that you're

56:23

ready? I don't know I think

56:26

it's sort of a case-by-case thing

56:28

something that I have learned to

56:30

monitor for myself. As you said

56:32

earlier, you went, oh, look at

56:34

me, I'm already acknowledging something nasty,

56:36

someone said to me and apologizing

56:38

for it. When I find myself

56:40

so wounded by negativity that I'm

56:42

figuring out how to answer for

56:45

it. When, you know, the next

56:47

time I have a mic, I'm

56:49

going to have to figure out

56:51

how to gently address. Then I

56:53

know I need a beat. Before,

56:55

you know, I'm forcing it. I

56:57

don't need to explain everything to

56:59

everyone. And it's a weird thing

57:01

because the internet will critique you

57:04

if you don't. And then if

57:06

you do, they critique you for

57:08

over sharing. And no matter what

57:10

you do, you can't get it

57:12

right. And so I have to

57:14

take a breath and say, this

57:16

is not a normal human experience

57:18

for there to be one of

57:20

us and multi millions of people

57:22

talking at us all the time.

57:25

Yeah. So if I know that,

57:27

how can I then? Try to

57:29

use it for good. Remind myself

57:31

that it's also not my real

57:33

life. And be in my life

57:35

as much as I can. And

57:37

that, even when I can ask

57:39

myself those questions, I know I'm

57:41

in a good place because I'm

57:44

making adjustments for my humanity, not

57:46

for what something looks like. And

57:48

is Ashlyn the one that helps

57:50

you take a beat and like

57:52

figure out what it is you?

57:54

are called to say or what

57:56

your, you know, real... is on

57:58

certain things before you share that

58:00

public, like who is, who's the,

58:03

because for me it is a

58:05

lot of Lily, it's my life

58:07

coach Morrie, it's a loke, me

58:09

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58:11

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1:01:58

up for other people. but I

1:02:00

very rarely ask people to

1:02:03

show up for me. And I

1:02:05

am learning to ask. I

1:02:07

am learning that I don't

1:02:09

have to do it all

1:02:11

by myself. I am learning

1:02:13

to call my, you know,

1:02:15

wonderful coven of brilliant

1:02:18

women and just say,

1:02:20

what the fuck are we gonna

1:02:22

do with this? I will say,

1:02:24

I feel like. There's so

1:02:27

many people in this world that

1:02:29

have to find every other opinion

1:02:31

with their own before they conform

1:02:33

theirs. And so it is kind

1:02:35

of iconic in a way that

1:02:37

you can do things independently. But

1:02:40

I will say the fact that

1:02:42

you have that, like this

1:02:44

arsenal of incredible humans to

1:02:46

tap into, you should use

1:02:48

it. Yeah. And I'm working on that.

1:02:50

And it feels nice to not have

1:02:52

so much. weight on my shoulders

1:02:55

all the time. I have a question

1:02:57

for you because look we're

1:02:59

all obviously navigating our

1:03:02

lives but one of the things

1:03:04

that I feel excited about

1:03:06

for you as your friend is

1:03:08

as you kind of name and

1:03:10

claim all your power I feel

1:03:12

like you're also in this

1:03:15

fun moment of starting to

1:03:17

figure out who's gonna pour

1:03:19

into your cup and And it's

1:03:22

different for you, you know, you

1:03:24

talked about being, you know, a young

1:03:26

out gay. And then having to really

1:03:28

come to terms with the fact that,

1:03:30

oh, that's not my full self. I'm

1:03:33

actually, I'm actually this woman.

1:03:35

Yes. That I've always felt

1:03:37

in me. How does that experience

1:03:40

shift how you date? Oh my God.

1:03:42

Because you're also so public.

1:03:44

Yes, but I will think about this.

1:03:46

Tall glass of water because tall

1:03:49

glass of water because needs to

1:03:51

be someone who is comfortable dating

1:03:53

someone in the public

1:03:56

eye, is attracted to trans women,

1:03:58

is comfortable. with maybe aspects

1:04:01

of their life, you know, not

1:04:03

that I'm like going to put

1:04:05

a relationship on blast, but there

1:04:07

is a chance whether I speak

1:04:09

or not that that aspects of

1:04:11

their life could be affected by

1:04:13

what I'm doing and saying. So

1:04:15

it almost has to be someone

1:04:17

who has like a kink for

1:04:19

like an oversharing transwoman, but like

1:04:21

what I, the most important thing

1:04:23

is that I cannot be with

1:04:26

someone who I have any doubts

1:04:28

is ashamed to be with me.

1:04:30

And because what I have done

1:04:32

so well is like start to

1:04:34

let go of the shame that

1:04:36

I have around who I am.

1:04:38

So what would be the worst

1:04:40

case scenario is me attaching myself

1:04:42

to someone else who then I

1:04:44

start changing myself based on how

1:04:46

they're reflecting back to me and

1:04:48

what they're seeing in me and

1:04:51

what they articulate to me about

1:04:53

myself. And so I really think

1:04:55

it's going to be. that has

1:04:57

something to do either with our

1:04:59

industry or is in the public

1:05:01

eye already so that like if

1:05:03

I was with this like doctor

1:05:05

that you know there doesn't get

1:05:07

rocked on the daily mail because

1:05:09

like there's just things and maybe

1:05:11

you're not looking to baptize someone

1:05:14

in the public life fire I

1:05:16

get that yes and so in

1:05:18

a way there would be some

1:05:20

comfort in knowing like oh this

1:05:22

person has their own thing going

1:05:24

on as well but I think

1:05:26

I'm really turned on by they're

1:05:28

not gonna if I come in

1:05:30

you know I walk into the

1:05:32

house one day and I'm like

1:05:34

I want to do this this

1:05:36

this and this that they're like

1:05:39

whoa like I think I want

1:05:41

like a yes human and and

1:05:43

I've really I've tried the hookup

1:05:45

thing I've found it to be

1:05:47

Really true L.A. is honey. It's

1:05:49

not what you mean. You've tried

1:05:51

the hook up on an app?

1:05:53

I've tried to casual yeah Whether

1:05:55

it's I mean I've never been

1:05:57

on an app. So I'm so

1:05:59

crazy. I know it's really weird.

1:06:01

I've actually I only have Riah

1:06:04

I've been thinking about potentially deleting

1:06:06

it just because it hasn't yielded

1:06:08

the greatest result. Sure. But I

1:06:10

think, what's the word? Oh, demi

1:06:12

sexual, I think maybe Chapel Rhone

1:06:14

was talking about an interview about

1:06:16

what I like is I need

1:06:18

to be emotionally connected with someone

1:06:20

beforehand and especially I think being

1:06:22

trans, I feel really protective over

1:06:24

my body and the fact that

1:06:27

there's still so many things changing

1:06:29

with it. And I want it

1:06:31

to be. someone that I like

1:06:33

it is hard for me to

1:06:35

get to a place where I'm

1:06:37

like ready to like take my

1:06:39

makeup off and like God for

1:06:41

what I was thinking about you

1:06:43

know someone was talking about like

1:06:45

shower sex recently and I was

1:06:47

like okay that's my worst nightmare

1:06:49

because I was like not only

1:06:52

are the fake lashes you know

1:06:54

they're coming off but like that

1:06:56

is really such a vulnerable state

1:06:58

to be in to be in.

1:07:00

But I really hope that it's

1:07:02

with someone and I like older.

1:07:04

I've always liked a mature soul.

1:07:06

But I hope it's with someone

1:07:08

who is proud to be with

1:07:10

a trans person and is who

1:07:12

gets a kick out of whatever

1:07:15

it is that I'm doing or

1:07:17

want to do. And I want

1:07:19

to be the same with them.

1:07:21

I love that. Yeah, I don't

1:07:23

know. You got to think about

1:07:25

I'm looking for like... 28 to

1:07:27

58 mask bisexual vibe feels yummy,

1:07:29

you know, kind of like daddy,

1:07:31

but also, you know, can be

1:07:33

like soft as well. Think on

1:07:35

it. You've got a pool of

1:07:37

queers now. Oh, I'm gonna really,

1:07:40

I'm gonna think about this. I

1:07:42

used to dig gay men and

1:07:44

they were so much better than

1:07:46

straight guys. I had no idea

1:07:48

what I was missing. Yeah. what

1:07:50

I ended up getting was not

1:07:52

as good as I thought it

1:07:54

was going to be. And I

1:07:56

have an essay called The Kissing

1:07:58

Bandit in the book where I

1:08:00

talk about, you know, just like

1:08:02

what it felt like to have

1:08:05

like the straight male gaze on

1:08:07

me for the first time and

1:08:09

not the gaze, but the gaze.

1:08:11

And I thought it was gonna

1:08:13

feel so much better than it

1:08:15

did. It was such an empty

1:08:17

confidence that came from it. And

1:08:19

you know, it can feel good

1:08:21

sometimes, but it doesn't make me

1:08:23

feel as good as like when

1:08:25

a girl's hyping me up and

1:08:28

you know in the bathroom or

1:08:30

you know, a phone call with

1:08:32

Lily. It's interesting to now, I've

1:08:34

kind of gotten to look at

1:08:36

life on both sides, like Joanie

1:08:38

Mitchell. And I love that I

1:08:40

can see like the perks of

1:08:42

living life as a gay man

1:08:44

versus as a woman, what the

1:08:46

how the queer community treats you

1:08:48

depending on what gender you are,

1:08:50

like how women treat you. Oh,

1:08:53

that changed a lot. And it's

1:08:55

still, you know, evolving and something

1:08:57

that I feel... I hope

1:08:59

does not digress because I feel

1:09:01

like I have really taken the,

1:09:03

not a back seat at all,

1:09:05

like almost like the passenger seat

1:09:08

to the driver in learning from

1:09:10

other gals. Yeah. What do you

1:09:12

feel like you're learning? I think

1:09:14

I'm learning that not, like I

1:09:16

think I was, it felt for

1:09:18

a long time like it was

1:09:20

cis women versus trans women and

1:09:22

I'm realizing there's a lot of,

1:09:24

the girls are fighting in both

1:09:27

categories, but that. There are a

1:09:29

lot of cis women who do

1:09:31

not see eye to eye on

1:09:33

things as well. And that, to

1:09:35

me, gave me permission to not

1:09:37

look at us as these two

1:09:39

different categories of people, but actually

1:09:41

see the nuance of what exists

1:09:44

within womanhood and feminism, and knowing

1:09:46

that like, even I'm watching the

1:09:48

White Lotus right now, and it's

1:09:50

so interesting, like when you've got

1:09:52

like a, we're looking at these,

1:09:54

have you watched it yet? like

1:09:56

a friend group of women who

1:09:58

maybe have different political beliefs and

1:10:00

how that shifts, you know, the

1:10:03

conversations and the judgments. And I

1:10:05

think that I now have less

1:10:07

of a desire to be accepted

1:10:09

by every single woman. And I,

1:10:11

it's more of a desire to

1:10:13

be respected by those that I

1:10:15

deeply respect. Yes. Yeah, and a

1:10:17

lot of, and I will say

1:10:20

like the, the gals that I've

1:10:22

loved in my role models growing

1:10:24

up, like now some of which

1:10:26

are like friends, and that is

1:10:28

what a gift. Like that is,

1:10:30

has helped show me that I,

1:10:32

I'm the kind of gal that

1:10:34

I, I loved growing up and

1:10:37

that I would continue wanting to

1:10:39

be. I love that for you.

1:10:41

I love you're the gal you

1:10:43

loved growing up. I'm so proud

1:10:45

of you. I've been watching so

1:10:47

much of and and like I

1:10:49

you know there's this like fear

1:10:51

I think as a trans person

1:10:53

that you are you know made

1:10:56

out to be a character or

1:10:58

that you're taking on aspects of

1:11:00

you know other women or fictional

1:11:02

women and so I did feel

1:11:04

a little guilty. I was like

1:11:06

oh I love Audrey Hepburn and

1:11:08

I love her style but I

1:11:10

don't want it to seem like

1:11:13

I'm like I'm like Cost playing

1:11:15

is her. I love Charlotte from

1:11:17

Sex and the City and you

1:11:19

know I feel so connected to

1:11:21

her as a character But I

1:11:23

don't want it to seem like

1:11:25

that's what I'm like trying to

1:11:27

be and then I I realize

1:11:29

like oh no, that's just you're

1:11:32

seeing things Whether it's in a

1:11:34

character or in a human or

1:11:36

in a celebrity that you see

1:11:38

within yourself and that have already

1:11:40

existed and it's not that there's

1:11:42

things that I see in others

1:11:44

that I love and that I

1:11:46

want to make even a little

1:11:49

brighter brighter within me you identify

1:11:51

with? Yes. That you feel represented

1:11:53

by, that you feel, that make

1:11:55

you feel seen? Yeah. What girl

1:11:57

in Sex and City are you?

1:12:00

I don't know. Probably.

1:12:02

I mean, let's be honest.

1:12:04

I'm, I'm, I'm, I think people

1:12:07

probably would have thought,

1:12:09

Kerry, but I think I'm

1:12:11

a little more a Miranda.

1:12:13

My dad still can't believe

1:12:15

I'm not a lawyer. He's

1:12:17

like, you love to argue,

1:12:19

you love to fight for justice.

1:12:22

I see some Miranda

1:12:24

there. I also think like,

1:12:26

you, old and earnestness and

1:12:28

an, like, that is. Honestly,

1:12:31

when I think of our group of

1:12:33

friends and those that we hang out

1:12:35

with, like there is that innocence that

1:12:37

I love. We talked about it last

1:12:39

year on the pod of like, you know,

1:12:41

finding people that have, oh, and

1:12:43

I loved Jane Fonda recently did

1:12:45

a podcast interview where she talked

1:12:48

about optimism versus hope. Yes, and

1:12:50

so. With Kerry Washington, it was

1:12:52

so good. I now, because I

1:12:54

feel like for so long, I've

1:12:57

been like, you know. eternal optimist

1:12:59

and now I'm like, oh no,

1:13:01

we're hopeful. I'm hopeful. I'm still

1:13:03

so hopeful. Is that going

1:13:06

into this crazy year

1:13:08

where literally our rights are

1:13:10

being stripped away and democracy

1:13:13

might be lost, but your

1:13:15

book is coming out? Yes.

1:13:17

It's the horrors and the

1:13:20

joy. Yep. Is it hope? It feels

1:13:22

like your work in progress right

1:13:24

now or is it something completely

1:13:26

different? Well, it's actually, I think

1:13:28

it's a balance of realism versus

1:13:30

hope and for, I think for a

1:13:32

long time I lived, I'm a zero

1:13:34

to 100 person, 100% just hopeful in

1:13:37

a way that I got burned so

1:13:39

many times because I wasn't taking into

1:13:41

consideration what could happen or the realities

1:13:43

of what it meant to be trans

1:13:45

in America or the realities of living

1:13:47

in the public eye. I always assumed

1:13:50

the best of everyone, even the

1:13:52

media, and it has bitten me

1:13:54

enough for me to know the

1:13:56

possibilities of what that looks like.

1:13:58

And so I... I'm a little

1:14:01

more cautious, but the hope is

1:14:03

that I can exist in a

1:14:05

place where it's the best case

1:14:07

scenario and that the good things

1:14:10

are possible and that my vision

1:14:12

board can come true. And then

1:14:14

it's the lack of when those

1:14:16

things don't happen or can't happen

1:14:19

because of the gear that we're

1:14:21

living in or the government that

1:14:23

we have or whatever that might

1:14:26

be that I have a plan

1:14:28

B, C, C, and D. can

1:14:30

still get me through and that

1:14:32

I can still live a full

1:14:35

life hopefully, but I'm not going

1:14:37

to go to plan B, C,

1:14:39

or D before I try plan

1:14:41

A. And I think that has

1:14:44

been really crucial. Like even this

1:14:46

year I don't have a vision,

1:14:48

I'm always a vision board girl.

1:14:50

I've always been able to manifest

1:14:53

like magical things, but it feels

1:14:55

so out of the ordinary right

1:14:57

now that I haven't forced myself

1:15:00

to like want certain things. But

1:15:02

I am approaching every single opportunity.

1:15:04

I'm like, does this help me

1:15:06

become a Broadway diva? And so

1:15:09

that's my vision board for this

1:15:11

year is that question. And there's

1:15:13

like hope within that. And I

1:15:15

think, so I will say, oh,

1:15:18

yes, thank you, Jane Fonda. Hope

1:15:20

is my work in progress right

1:15:22

now. I love it. Yeah. What's

1:15:24

yours right now? You give me

1:15:27

a lot of hope. I think

1:15:29

slowing down. It's really hard for

1:15:31

me. Oh yeah. But I am,

1:15:33

I am just so ready for

1:15:36

slow, tender. We don't want to

1:15:38

be everywhere and nowhere. We want

1:15:40

to be some places in and

1:15:43

giving a hundred percent. Oh, love

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