0:03

You're listening to a CNA podcast.

0:10

Hi, this is Tiffany and Gerald on

0:12

the Work It podcast. We've all been

0:14

seeing news of layoffs recently

0:16

and that's always not something very

0:18

nice to hear. In a previous episode

0:20

where we discussed the signs before a company

0:23

is headed for a retrenchment exercise,

0:25

actually I was shocked to learn that

0:27

there are organizations that retrench their staff

0:29

at the end or even start of the year

0:31

to avoid giving up bonuses. Yes, if

0:34

unfortunately you're one of them. Or you've been retrenched

0:36

yourself not too long ago, and you're now looking

0:38

for employment, you want to stay on this podcast.

0:41

Today we'll be talking about how to find your next job

0:43

after you have been retrenched. With us in the

0:45

studio today to give us some career advice

0:47

is Sean Tong. He's the head of Asia

0:50

for HR recruitment firm, Fraser Jones.

0:53

Sean, welcome to the podcast. Thanks

0:55

for having me here. Sean, in your

0:57

line of work, do companies

0:59

tend to view a Job applicant

1:01

negatively if they've been retrenched

1:04

before? I would say yes

1:06

and no. They still look at the

1:08

candidate past employment history.

1:11

So say if a candidate has about 10

1:13

years of experience, and the news

1:15

is made public, for example, Company

1:18

A going through retrenchment this year

1:20

due to right sizing exercise. I

1:22

mean, this is public news and the candidate

1:24

could explain himself or her. during

1:27

the interview and that's perfectly all right.

1:30

So what are some things that you would maybe advise

1:32

companies when they, let's say have an applicant

1:35

on the table, they're looking at their resume and

1:37

it says that they have been retrenched. What would you

1:39

advise companies to look for when

1:41

they're looking at such an applicant? I think they should

1:43

look beyond the current

1:45

reason why they have been retrenched.

1:47

Look at the skill sets they could bring on

1:49

board and value add to the organization.

1:52

And more importantly is the

1:54

candidate himself or herself, meeting

1:56

them in person. Do they fit the culture

1:58

of the organization beyond the

2:00

paper itself, but that said, it's

2:02

very difficult to take away that unconscious

2:05

biasedness because we all know that Singapore

2:07

market is very competitive, both

2:10

locals or expats. The

2:12

challenge is because of the competition.

2:15

People who are without a job being immediately

2:18

available, always find it harder

2:20

to get an interview opportunity as

2:22

compared to someone who is currently in the job. This

2:25

is just human behavior, hiring manager

2:27

behavior. So Sean, what you're saying is someone

2:29

who is already Working who's still in a

2:31

job will be seen more positively

2:33

by the next employer as compared to someone

2:36

who's out of a job, even though the person is

2:38

immediately available for work. That's correct. I

2:40

think the only difference is if

2:42

companies are looking for someone

2:44

urgently to fill the position. Then

2:47

that's when the pros and cons, you know,

2:49

being immediately available is

2:51

an advantage. I think a lot

2:53

of people would be curious to

2:55

know if today I'm being retrenched,

2:57

what are my odds in being able to

2:59

quickly get a job? A quick

3:01

stat that I just pulled out, so according to the manpower

3:03

Ministry labor stats. They say

3:06

that in Q2 last

3:08

year, 2024, the re-entry

3:10

rate was 55%. Then

3:12

Q3 it went up to 60.4%.

3:15

That's the resident rate of reentry

3:18

to the workforce within six months of retrenchment.

3:20

So I'm thinking to myself, yeah, I mean it's an

3:23

improvement, but 60%

3:25

is still not very high. So

3:27

what would you say realistically is

3:29

the re-entry rate for people like what should I be

3:31

expecting after I get retrenched?

3:34

On average, it takes between

3:36

3 to 6 months to find a new role in Singapore,

3:39

and that depends on the industry

3:41

demand. And also economic conditions,

3:44

right? Things are slowly trying to

3:46

get better compared to June

3:48

2023, which is 18 months

3:50

ago, when you see a lot of tech firms

3:52

going through layoffs, the big and the small.

3:55

Skill set relevance in the current

3:57

job market is also critical. The next

4:00

will be seniority. Senior

4:02

roles could take even longer than 6 months.

4:05

Right. OK, so the older you get,

4:07

the harder it is to re-entry. Not

4:09

necessarily by age. There are people who are pretty

4:11

senior early in their career, right?

4:14

Specifically the tech industry and

4:16

financial services. So there are VPs.

4:19

Or senior VPs who are at the age

4:21

of 30 plus minus. Some

4:24

other factors influencing duration

4:26

could be the strength of your

4:28

network, right? If you stay connected

4:30

to some of the strong professional networks out

4:32

there, it could shorten the job search

4:34

timeline. If I were to add on to this point

4:36

about the re-entry rate, 60.4%,

4:40

this is of course average across every age group.

4:42

I think if you distill down this rate

4:45

into different age groups, you'll start to see

4:47

that. Maybe certain age groups

4:49

reenter faster and certain age groups

4:51

re-enter slower. So obviously it's different

4:53

for people who are younger,

4:55

maybe it's easier for them to

4:58

come back into the job market also probably because

5:00

what they're going to command in terms of a salary will be

5:03

slightly lower. So companies that are

5:05

already right sizing, they might take that

5:07

cost into factor, right, labor cost, right?

5:09

This is something that I personally I don't quite

5:12

understand, although it is the market dynamics, right?

5:14

I don't quite understand this part because Someone

5:16

who has got a longer runway for a company,

5:18

if you are willing to hire them first, they

5:21

may not stay for very long, as

5:23

compared to someone who's older, who's

5:25

a lot more experienced. If you can get

5:27

them on a good package, they will likely stay

5:29

longer. Yeah, maybe 1015, they might

5:31

go all the way until retirement for you, right? So

5:34

for me, the current trend of hiring

5:36

for hiring managers and what I think it

5:38

should be, it doesn't quite match up in

5:40

my own opinion, right? I'm someone who

5:42

values experience. So someone who's older

5:44

and who's got a lot more experience and networks.

5:46

And when you get older, you get more networks, those

5:48

come at a price as well and surely the longevity

5:51

of the tenure of work for them. I

5:53

mean, I'm just speaking to all the employers out there, if you really

5:55

are considering, why not think the other way

5:57

as well. If everybody's going for the same fish, why

5:59

not put your eyes on something else? I think

6:01

job flexibility matters as well,

6:04

right? Singapore. People value being in a

6:06

permanent job. So being open to

6:08

contract part-time or even consulting roles

6:11

may be able to expedite

6:13

employment. More and more companies are willing

6:15

to give a year contract or 6 month

6:18

contract before converting someone into a perm,

6:20

which brings me to something that I actually read on Reddit.

6:23

So some people were saying, OK, if you

6:25

have been retrenched and you're

6:27

looking for employment. Then a good

6:29

start would be to look for maternity cover

6:31

and then that might actually translate to

6:33

a permanent job later on. I

6:35

think a lot of people might be wondering, how do

6:37

I then put myself in a better position

6:40

to get employment after I've been retrenched

6:43

because we said earlier on that

6:45

there is a bit of that stigma. What

6:47

are sort of like immediate steps can we

6:49

take, maybe in the first month after we've

6:51

been retrenched. This is a very common

6:53

question we get this year, particularly

6:56

in the market where it's quite volatile. I

6:58

think the first thing is to acknowledge the

7:00

situation. For many, they have

7:02

never been retrenched before. So

7:04

take a few days to process the news. It's

7:06

difficult, but not uncommon experience.

7:09

Focus on the fact that retrenchment

7:12

often reflects business decision,

7:14

not personal failure. I think the mindset

7:16

is very important. The next is

7:19

refresh your resume, look

7:21

at LinkedIn profile, look at updating

7:23

your LinkedIn profile, your cover letter. That

7:25

is critical because to some

7:27

and to many, they have

7:30

not done any work on their resume.

7:32

They could be in the company for 1015 years,

7:34

right? They don't know where to begin. So search for

7:36

professional help. There's a lot of tools

7:38

out there that can help individuals with their resume.

7:42

Also from my own experiences, this

7:44

year I had 5 friends who lost their jobs, 5

7:46

friends, and the thing is, they know what I'm doing

7:48

right, career counseling, and they still come to me and they

7:50

tell me like, I just want to let you know that

7:53

I've just been let go. And I wish to keep

7:55

this private. Yeah,

7:57

yeah, but a lot of them because like what Sean was saying, right, it's like

7:59

there's a shame shame, yeah, taboo,

8:01

it's like you don't want people to know that you've been let go,

8:04

but I feel like this is the time to tell people that, hey, I'm

8:06

going to look out for opportunities. I'm available

8:09

now and this is my value add, this is my skill

8:11

set. Help me. Tell me, where can I go?

8:13

Someone that you know that's looking for work.

8:16

This is part of the acknowledgement process. At least now

8:18

you have more sources to help you to hunt

8:20

in that sense. And it's not just the hunting part, right?

8:22

It's also the support that you get from people

8:24

knowing that there are 5 people out there who you trust

8:26

and who also knows about you and willing

8:28

to back you up and support you a little bit more.

8:31

I think it just makes you feel like you're not alone

8:33

in the journey. Also at the same time, it may

8:35

not only be shame that they feel, it

8:37

could be that it's hard to actually

8:40

handle when You're telling people

8:42

about something that's not so good that

8:44

has happened in your life and then people go, oh,

8:46

I am so sorry. Are you OK?

8:49

And then suddenly you have to hold space for them, right?

8:51

And then you have to explain to them that actually I'm OK.

8:53

I am taking steps and when you

8:55

have to explain to the 20th person

8:58

and to make them feel OK

9:00

that you are not suffering. It's actually

9:03

quite tiring. So maybe some of them would rather just

9:05

go, you know, I don't want to have to deal with someone else's

9:07

emotions. I am OK

9:09

and I would like to deal with my

9:11

emotions myself. Having

9:14

been in the recruitment industry for almost

9:16

2 decades right now, I think the turning

9:18

point is truly during COVID

9:20

times, because a lot of people's jobs are

9:23

being affected. Then you

9:25

see a lot of people posting, people who are

9:27

affected posting on LinkedIn, and

9:29

to say, hey, I've been made redundant, I've been retrenched.

9:32

They are very open in sharing. It's not

9:34

being shameful of being retrenched,

9:36

it's just a business decision. So

9:39

when more of those voices are public,

9:41

people are more willing to share

9:43

those information and that in turn

9:45

helped them to get more opportunity because

9:47

they should reach out to their former. Colleagues, their

9:49

former bosses, even friends and family

9:52

to get the work out there. So even in Singapore

9:54

right now when we are seeing a lot of news of retrenchments

9:56

and a lot of fears, it's actually a good thing because

10:00

employers are more receptive. There's this image that,

10:02

OK, there's a lot of talent out there, right? And

10:04

then whether you're retrenched or not, I can hire good

10:06

people. The challenge here comes with

10:08

if today the market is tight, if

10:10

the labor market is very tight, there's very low unemployment

10:13

and nobody is retrenching. And you got

10:15

that unemployed person looking for a job,

10:17

and the unemployed person has been looking for a job for more than 6

10:19

months. That is a hard one. That's what I would call

10:21

like a lemon. And employers will be wondering, are

10:23

you a lemon? Oh, OK. Like nobody

10:25

wants you, right? Because everybody's scrambling for people, but

10:28

yet you cannot find a job for 6 months. What's wrong with you?

10:30

Some employers have the mindset. Yeah, so that's of

10:32

course in a tight labor market, but right now, I

10:34

think if today someone is retrenched, it's

10:36

a really good opportunity to set your sights

10:38

far. OK, let's say in that scenario,

10:41

6 months later, even up to a year, you've done

10:43

everything you can, right? And

10:46

still you haven't found any

10:48

employment. Now what? Are you

10:50

really a lemon or should you

10:53

rethink about how you are planning things?

10:55

I think back to my earlier point,

10:58

treat the job search like a project,

11:00

set daily and weekly goals.

11:02

Say for example, 5 applications per

11:04

day, 2 networking calls, reach out to

11:07

people, connect with people on LinkedIn. Celebrate

11:10

small wins, because being

11:12

out of a job for 6 months, applying

11:14

for jobs, going for interviews and not getting a

11:16

job offer is very demoralizing.

11:19

So I think the mindset is critical and then create

11:21

structure in the day. For example, allocate

11:23

time for job search, networking, upskilling,

11:26

and then avoid burnout, balance

11:29

job hunting with

11:31

exercise, with hobbies. Still go for a short

11:33

holiday. Don't take that away from your life. I

11:35

think the difficulty for many

11:37

How to fill up that void. So holidays

11:39

is one, of course, right. Some people have to do caregiving,

11:42

so that's another reason as well. But

11:44

what I would advocate for people is maybe

11:46

go and take some training. Use it as an

11:48

opportunity to upskill yourself because it's so good

11:50

for an employer to say, what have you been doing for the last

11:52

one year, and then you say, I've been learning certain

11:54

things. And you have to realize that when we

11:57

go for training, it's not just acquisition

11:59

of knowledge, we are also acquiring networks.

12:02

We are having classmates, they have their own

12:04

networks, they're meeting people. When you make

12:06

effort to go out for training, you're actually

12:08

giving yourself a routine, a sense of purpose,

12:10

right? It's like you're getting some pseudo career

12:12

life back because you're talking about the things that will propel

12:15

you, help you to develop yourself into the future.

12:17

Don't be what we call the stay at home

12:19

person who's just applying for jobs. And just

12:22

clicking with behind the screen, yeah. Clicking

12:24

refresh on your email box. Yes, because

12:26

like what Sean said, right, it can get very demoralizing.

12:28

I've seen people who took up courses

12:31

and did a career switch as well

12:33

during this time. They took 3 to 6

12:35

months, take up a course, go for interviews,

12:38

yes and no, it has to be something

12:40

still slightly relevant. So

12:43

for example, like a retail

12:45

operations manager could pivot into supply

12:47

chain roles right within the industry.

12:49

I think what Sean pointed out is very important. A

12:51

conversion is not something that is like

12:53

an absolute different switch. That kind of big

12:55

jump, right? It's quite unrealistic actually. Employers

12:58

will not be willing to hire you outright for that

13:00

limited training experience you have, but if you

13:02

can identify some transferables between what

13:04

you have and what you newly acquired as a knowledge

13:07

to move into a Jason role or nearby

13:09

role, I think that it's a beautiful

13:11

match that. be made. So if potential

13:14

employers quiz you,

13:16

let's say they go, what happened during

13:18

your retrenchment or you've been retrenched

13:20

and you haven't had a job in like 4

13:23

months. How would you advise

13:25

somebody who's going through that to

13:27

respond in an interview? My best

13:30

advice is be authentic. Come

13:32

up with something that you have not done before, right?

13:35

I get this question a lot. Exactly,

13:37

right? It's like, Sean, what should I say during these 4

13:39

months. So my question back to

13:42

them is, what have you actually done during

13:44

these 4 or 6 months? Have you been

13:46

out there networking? Have you been taking a sabbatical?

13:48

Take a break. If you haven't taken a break

13:50

for 15 years or 20 years working. Then

13:53

taking 2 to 3 months break is fair,

13:56

right? So if you're authentic and you're

13:58

able to say that confidently during

14:00

interviews, then the interviewer

14:02

on the other side of the table will believe you.

14:04

I don't suggest lying,

14:07

trying to lie during an interview because

14:09

people can sense it. I think being honest and authentic

14:11

would be a great way to start, but sometimes if

14:13

today the retrenchment is not known. And

14:16

employers ask, what made you leave your last job? Why

14:18

did you leave your last job? Then you are in a position

14:20

that you say or do you not say, right?

14:22

So in those situations, I always, yeah, I will just tell

14:24

them that you can disclose what you feel comfortable with.

14:27

But at the same time, try to divert

14:29

the conversation towards more of

14:31

yourself and the job and the prospective job. So.

14:34

you're not lying, but you're just saying that yeah, the

14:36

company was having some difficulties as far as restructuring,

14:38

I was given a package, I thought it was the right time to

14:40

go. More importantly, there's this other

14:43

opportunity that your company has for me, and I can see how

14:45

these things that you are doing, you're offering is

14:48

such a good fit for me. I'm really interested

14:50

to join. It's almost like making the employer feel like

14:52

You have quit your company to join

14:54

them. Yeah, you just mention the word. Yes,

14:57

don't focus on that. That's what you're saying. Yeah, exactly, because

14:59

employers don't want to see a potential higher to be carrying

15:01

baggage from the past. More importantly,

15:03

they want to know what can you do for me? Can you really

15:06

value add my business? Can you contribute? Can you

15:08

do something? Yeah, so I think we need to

15:10

always Emphasize that fit and

15:12

why you're interested in this new company.

15:14

It's very common these days where retrenchment

15:17

or right sizing exercise is due to

15:19

a business decision, which is

15:22

a shutdown of a business unit, a

15:24

region not doing well, that's why they are removing

15:26

a certain layer within the organization.

15:29

Touch and go, right? Don't focus too much on

15:31

why you are being laid off or why you're the selected

15:33

one. Focus on what's there

15:35

and why you're interested in the role and why you're

15:37

there at the interview. Yeah, on that

15:39

point, right, if today an employee really wants to know,

15:41

really, are you saying the right things, then that's where your referees

15:44

come in, your character referees that you provide,

15:46

they will be the ones to vouch for your performance.

15:49

So if you could get a referee that's from your past job,

15:51

right, then it sends a signal that Actually,

15:54

you were not like a bad hire. Your last

15:56

employer was willing to vouch for you and during COVID,

15:58

we saw a lot of that, right? Many exactly. Be

16:00

daring enough to ask for introductions.

16:03

Oh yeah, that's true, for a job,

16:05

you would be 1 in 1000,

16:07

1 in 500, right? So how can

16:09

your CV stand out? It's true recommendation,

16:12

through references. Well, I

16:14

mean, there are so many valuable tips

16:17

and insights that we've talked about today

16:19

and I hope that whoever is listening to

16:21

this podcast and feeling a

16:23

bit down, maybe they would go,

16:25

hey, you know what, OK, today is the day I'm going to

16:28

try and do something, even if it's just to

16:30

take that 3 months sabbatical, like you say,

16:32

give yourself a break, it's OK. Give yourself permission

16:34

to have a break. So thank you so much, Sean,

16:36

for coming on our podcast today. We really

16:38

enjoyed having you here. Thank you so much for having

16:40

me here, really enjoy my time. Hi,

16:47

it's our Ask Me Anything segment.

16:49

So let's get straight into it. Today's

16:52

one is sent in by Andy.

16:54

Andy is in an awkward social

16:57

situation with a colleague. See

16:59

what happened is, OK, I'll read this

17:01

out. And he says, I

17:03

didn't invite a colleague to my wedding,

17:05

but I did invite some others.

17:08

He is offended and I'm worried

17:10

that this will affect our working relationship

17:13

because he also blocked me on social

17:15

media. What should I do? I

17:17

know some people might be thinking, eh, it's a

17:19

straightforward one, right? Don't

17:21

care what this colleague thinks, it's

17:24

your wedding, Andy, and you decide

17:26

who makes the list or not. But

17:28

I don't think Andy is regretting his decision

17:30

here. The problem is, he thinks

17:32

it's going to affect the working relationship and likely

17:35

so because you know, sounds like this colleague

17:37

is not very mature in the way that he's

17:39

dealing with it. So Gerald, what

17:41

do you think Andy should do?

17:44

Wow, it's like something that all of us worry

17:46

about whether we are going for like

17:48

an important event like a wedding, who should we invite? We get limited

17:50

tables. So we really have to

17:52

invite the right people and unfortunately,

17:55

some people must be left out. So

17:57

unfortunately, Andy, I think if your colleague blocked

17:59

you on social media for this reason. Then maybe

18:01

your colleague really felt really left out and

18:03

sidelined by you. So I think maybe

18:05

you want to consider this whether you feel that it's

18:08

reasonable for your colleague

18:10

to respond to you in this way, right? What I mean

18:12

by reasonable is if today this is someone

18:14

who has been lunching with you, who has been

18:16

talking to you, you've been going out a lot,

18:18

even after work drinks, you chat

18:20

a lot, you work very closely and then To find out

18:22

that this person is not in that list for the wedding,

18:25

OK, OK, then it means something, right?

18:28

So first, Andy, you got to consider whether

18:30

were you sending wrong signals? Yeah, yeah,

18:32

correct. I mean, you can imagine if someone

18:34

that's very close to you didn't invite

18:36

you for something important, but they invited somebody

18:38

that seemingly not so close to you at the

18:40

workplace, then you'll be asking a lot of questions

18:42

like why am I not invited. So I think Andy,

18:45

the colleagues action to block you on social media could be

18:47

their own way to cope with that. Disappointment and it's

18:49

not something you can control. Yeah, you cannot be

18:51

like the social media police. Why do you block me, you know, it's

18:53

going to make things really awkward. So that's not a very

18:55

realistic thing confronting them. It's not a realistic

18:57

thing, and it will even seem petty to do so.

19:00

So I think, go about your work with this

19:02

colleague and then along the way, if you observe

19:04

certain behaviors or changes in terms of how you're

19:06

working together, maybe you want to have the clear

19:08

the air conversation to try to find out like

19:10

what happened. I notice certain things are different,

19:12

the way we interact with each other is different. Maybe you'll

19:14

have a chat about it. Yeah. Then if

19:17

this wedding thing comes up, then maybe you can apologize

19:19

and you can say I didn't know, then you can

19:21

explain your limitations as well. I mean, between the

19:23

two of us, I'm more of the confrontational

19:26

type of character, right, but actually I think

19:28

in this case, there's no need to try

19:30

and highlight the need to. Say, hey,

19:32

let's sit down and then let's have a chat

19:34

because I noticed things are a bit awkward, frosty

19:37

between us. Is it because I didn't invite you

19:39

to my wedding? I don't think that's necessary

19:41

because I think let that matter pass, right?

19:44

It's one of those things that I feel perhaps

19:46

even upon reflection and these colleagues might

19:48

also think maybe that wasn't the most

19:50

mature way to deal with things. It's perfectly fine

19:52

to continue to try and separate work from pleasure.

19:55

So work with your colleague Andy like you

19:57

usually do. Maybe go back to inviting

19:59

your colleague back for lunches if you have been

20:01

doing so, right? So just say, hey, you want to go for lunch?

20:03

If your colleague says no, then OK, so be it.

20:05

But if your colleague says, yeah, OK, sure. There's

20:08

also a way for them to try and

20:10

mend things without pointing out the elephant

20:12

in the room. Yeah. And if in

20:14

doubt, Andy, just name your firstborn

20:16

after this colleague, right? Easy,

20:19

this person will forgive you. Well, if

20:21

like Andy, you have a work-related question, do

20:23

write to us. We are at CNA podcasts

20:25

at Mediacorp.com.sg.

20:28

Otherwise, you can find us on Spotify, Apple,

20:30

or YouTube. The team behind the Work

20:33

It podcast is Christina Robert, Joanne

20:35

Chan, Juani Johari and Sai

20:37

Ye Win. Sound mixing by Carrie Lim,

20:39

video by Hanida Ahmed. I'm Gerald

20:41

and I'm Tiffany. Have a good lunch

20:43

this week.