0:02

You're listening to a

0:04

CNA podcast. Hi, it's Tiffany

0:07

and Gerald on the

0:09

Workhead podcast. Now, I've been

0:11

in journalism ever since I graduated

0:14

from school. Yes, I've worked for

0:16

several news organizations, but I've never

0:18

stepped outside of this feel. So

0:21

I'm always interested to meet people

0:23

who do a hard pivot with

0:26

their careers. Gerald what's the biggest

0:28

career switch you've ever heard of?

0:30

I think in my experience big

0:33

career switches are not very common.

0:35

Yeah just minor ones right? Usually

0:37

you see the smaller adjacent or

0:39

related career pivots like for example

0:41

from social worker you may become

0:43

a counselor but I did recently

0:45

meet someone who made a larger

0:47

career switch from banking to diplomatic

0:49

foreign affairs. Wow, that's really quite

0:51

different because different skill sets, right?

0:53

To make this our big switch,

0:55

we really need to find what's

0:57

transferable across the person's experience. One of

1:00

the hardest career switches I can think of

1:02

is going from one where you pick up

1:04

generalized skills to a job that requires technical

1:06

know-how. Yes. For example, I don't think I

1:08

can survive an interview for a tech job.

1:10

That is something that I have zero skills

1:13

in, like coding. I don't know. I mean,

1:15

have you tried to before? Yeah, so I've

1:17

tried coding in the HDML in school before

1:19

and I felt that subject. Because the minute

1:21

that you just say, go into the back

1:23

end and type the, I don't know, slash,

1:26

don't know what, that kind of stuff, I

1:28

was like, okay. then I had to

1:30

try and see whether I could copy

1:32

someone else's work. So it looked exactly

1:34

like someone else's work. It's not easy,

1:36

definitely not easy to make this start

1:39

out of change, which is why today

1:41

we invited Jane Tan, a former flight

1:43

attendant who's now a software engineer at

1:45

Tommy Technologies, to find out how she

1:48

made that switch and how she most

1:50

importantly is at interview to get the

1:52

job. Yeah, I'm sure many people want

1:54

to know. Welcome Jane. Hi, thank you

1:57

for having me. Jane. more about why

1:59

did you decide? to make that switch

2:01

to go into the tech world. Well,

2:03

for me personally, after flying for five

2:06

years, I began to feel very stagnant.

2:08

My parents were also getting older. I

2:10

just wanted to spend more time with

2:12

my loved ones. I have a dog

2:15

that was getting older too. The constant

2:17

travel meant that. I was away more

2:19

than I was home. I realized that

2:22

I needed a change not just for

2:24

my career but also for my personal

2:26

life. So why did you choose to

2:28

fly in the first place? You wanted

2:31

to see the world I guess? That

2:33

was part of the reason, but mainly

2:35

I sort of... fell into it because

2:37

I accompanied my friend for the interview.

2:40

No way! So your friend got the

2:42

job or you got the job? Unfortunately

2:44

she didn't. So you accompanied her for

2:46

the job interview but she didn't get

2:49

the job and you got the job.

2:51

Okay, look, just spoiler alert, this is

2:53

not the first time she has spoiled

2:55

an interview for somebody else, okay? Because

2:58

later on in the podcast, as we

3:00

were here, she aced another job interview

3:02

that other people couldn't get. We'll get

3:05

to that later on. We'll get to

3:07

that later on. factors to shift and

3:09

decided that it's time to stay grounded.

3:11

Pardon intended, right? Yeah, when you were

3:14

on the job as a flight attendant,

3:16

surely you also picked up certain skills.

3:18

I would like to hear from you

3:20

what sort of skills do you think

3:23

were skills that you picked up on

3:25

the job as a flight attendant that

3:27

you think were transferable for your next

3:29

pivot? From my experience as a flight

3:32

attendant, I picked up some communication skills

3:34

because they train us on how to

3:36

handle different passenger situations, how to handle

3:38

conflicts on board. And so when I

3:41

decided to transit into tech, I sort

3:43

of positioned myself as someone with stronger

3:45

communication skills because I realized that in

3:48

such a highly technical industry many people

3:50

were able to show their technical skills

3:52

but not so much their interpersonal skills.

3:54

I see. So I did some research

3:57

on the industry while job searching and

3:59

noted the companies were saying that to

4:01

have a very good software engineer you

4:03

don't just want to look for someone

4:06

with good technical skills you need to

4:08

have someone with good communication and interpersonal

4:10

skills as well so that you can

4:12

communicate the technical aspects to technical and

4:15

non-technical stakeholders. I was able to explain

4:17

technical concepts very well in layman terms

4:19

to for example the hiring manager who's

4:21

not technical or the HR person or

4:24

clients what kind of features do they

4:26

want and translate that into code for

4:28

the team that's a skill that I

4:30

brought over as a flight attendant you

4:33

were attending to the needs of your

4:35

passengers and now your passengers have changed

4:37

and they are basically your clients who

4:39

need some software so they're asking you

4:42

can write some software and you're able

4:44

to pick that up and build a

4:46

relationship with them yeah so all the

4:48

jobs in the world that you could

4:51

choose why did you choose the tech

4:53

industry did you have any prior knowledge

4:55

of how to code. Every time I

4:57

did a bit of HDML before. I

4:59

did a bit of HDML. Does block

5:02

sport count? Oh, so you're okay, yes.

5:04

Other than that, I do not have

5:06

any prior knowledge. I knew that even

5:08

if it wasn't tagged. I had to

5:11

step out of the flying life. Tech

5:13

seemed to be something that I could

5:15

learn on the side while flying. Oh,

5:17

I see. So I started to dabble

5:20

in code with some short external courses

5:22

online. I realized that coding wasn't just

5:24

about creating something, solving problems, and more

5:26

than that it was a learning journey.

5:29

Every single time I was able to

5:31

debug a very complicated technical problem. I

5:33

just felt a sense of satisfaction. Right.

5:35

Like after hours of pondering over the

5:38

same problem I was able to solve

5:40

it. That felt really exciting to me.

5:42

I was learning something all the time

5:44

and it felt like, okay, it's not

5:47

just a stepping stone for me. I

5:49

want to do this for my career.

5:51

So I decided to take the lead

5:53

and go into this. outside of your

5:56

regular line hours. But then knowing the

5:58

work that you had, it can be

6:00

quite punishing on the body because you're

6:02

working in different time zones and the

6:05

last thing you want is to come

6:07

back and stay in front of a

6:09

computer and do this and like you

6:11

say hours of doing this you feel

6:14

a sense of achievement after you debug

6:16

something. I would probably quit after 30

6:18

minutes. I think 30 minutes is the

6:20

max for my attention spent. I mean

6:23

for flying the same destinations I've reached

6:25

a certain point where I'd rather just

6:27

stay in the hotel. So I just

6:29

took the time to try this out.

6:32

I like how Jane puts it right

6:34

like dabbling try I think these are

6:36

words right that you may think that

6:38

it's nothing but actually what you're doing

6:41

is you're learning and you're actually exploring

6:43

your testing the limits the boundaries of

6:45

how much of this interest should I

6:47

pursue further. Many of us when we

6:50

work we are so busy if I

6:52

work life right we don't have time

6:54

to dabble or to try and that's

6:56

the reason why career development doesn't really

6:59

take place. You're always in that zone

7:01

but what Jane really did well is

7:03

in her non-flying times she's just trying

7:05

out things I think that is really

7:08

one critical step as part of her

7:10

knowing that this is the thing for

7:12

her. But exactly when did you realize

7:14

that this was the right move for

7:16

you so from dabbling to actually making

7:19

this a full-time career how do you

7:21

know that this is it? So it's

7:23

a lump sum of bonus. I looked

7:25

at my financials and I decided that.

7:28

Yeah, I want to do the switch

7:30

now. I'm very sure of where I

7:32

want to go into. So I knew

7:34

that I needed to take steps to

7:37

formalize my learning, not just doing it

7:39

on the side. So I gathered about

7:41

two years worth, I know that I

7:43

can sustain for more than two years,

7:46

and then I quit my job. So

7:48

I came across the tech immersion and

7:50

placement program. TIPP. They offered various academies,

7:52

including General Assembly. subsidies for students a

7:55

certain percentage. So you pay a small

7:57

percentage. and you go into the course

7:59

and they will help you with the

8:01

tech transition. Including helping you to find

8:04

placement after you graduate? They do not

8:06

help you find placement per se, but

8:08

they do guide you with their career

8:10

cultures. At any point, did you feel

8:13

that you had a disadvantage because you

8:15

were starting late? Would you ever compare

8:17

yourself with people who maybe they have

8:19

studied this for many years? Did you

8:22

have a feel that you would never

8:24

be able to catch up? Of course,

8:26

there were many moments where I felt

8:28

like that. But before the course, I

8:31

did preempt that I will have a

8:33

more difficult time understanding concepts that might

8:35

be intuitive to other people who already

8:37

have a more stand background. My degree

8:40

is business and management. So I really

8:42

don't have the background. So what I

8:44

did was previously, I dabble a little

8:46

bit at a side. I took up

8:49

short courses to reinforce what I've learned

8:51

before I went into the course. For

8:53

General Assembly, they also have this short

8:55

course called pre-work where you have to

8:58

clear the pre-work before you officially enroll

9:00

into the course. So I took that

9:02

more seriously because I know that I

9:04

needed to. I always go back and

9:07

revisit concepts that I wasn't sure if

9:09

I made sure that I really understood

9:11

it properly before I moved on. The

9:13

datelines are very tight and the pace

9:16

was... extremely relentless. We barely had any

9:18

break and about halfway through the course

9:20

I found myself really struggling. I couldn't

9:22

catch up to the pace of learning

9:25

were going at because some of them

9:27

had engineering backgrounds. I would say almost

9:29

half my class. I even admitted to

9:31

my instructor that I wasn't able to

9:33

complete my homework on time. But fortunately

9:36

for me, my instructor was super understanding.

9:38

He pushed the deadline back for me

9:40

and gave a lot of valuable feedback

9:42

on my code, on my projects, how

9:45

to proceed from where I'm at. And

9:47

eventually I came out the other side.

9:49

I felt a very great sense of

9:51

achievement. because it was so tough. I

9:54

want to ask you Jane, at that

9:56

point where you felt like you were

9:58

really left far behind. Did the thought

10:00

of just giving up ever cross your

10:02

mind? And if not, what made you

10:05

keep going? Oh, it didn't. It didn't

10:07

cross my mind because I had quit

10:09

my job. Oh, so it's all nothing

10:11

at this stage. I was fully

10:13

committed to it. So I told myself

10:15

if I'm able to get a tech

10:17

job afterwards, then good for me. Otherwise,

10:19

coding is a very important skill in

10:21

today's world and I could do my

10:24

own business. when I pick up coding,

10:26

it's not necessarily I have to go

10:28

into a software engineering role. There are

10:30

other tech adjacent rules as well, tech

10:32

sales, product management, many things actually failing

10:34

was not an option for her. I

10:36

think you can see that the sensitivity

10:39

of very determined, very resilient, you counted

10:41

your money and you made sure that

10:43

as you got in, you want to get something

10:45

out of this, right? And I like how she

10:47

mentioned also, at the end, she might not be

10:50

a software engineer, but she could do other things.

10:52

I need the adjacent part. Starting connect back with

10:54

your degree in business management, you said, I maybe

10:56

do my own business, tech sales, yeah, which is

10:58

all soft skills that you have already clocked under

11:01

your. career experience of five years. Yeah. And

11:03

we understand that during one of

11:05

your technical interviews, you had just

11:07

a book cam graduate, right? You

11:09

had to solve questions that were

11:11

posed to you. In fact, the

11:13

interviewer was surprised that you managed

11:15

to solve questions that stumped some

11:17

candidates who had a computer science

11:19

degree. I'm interested to know, how

11:21

did you actually solve a problem

11:23

that people with that technical knowledge

11:25

couldn't do? because people with computer

11:27

science degrees, they study this subject

11:29

for four years, right? They don't

11:31

study the full coding part for

11:33

four years. They do study theory

11:35

and many other things to foster

11:37

some background understanding. But

11:40

for me, we focus all our time

11:42

on purely web development and clearing technical

11:44

interviews. So in that sense, we did

11:46

have some advantage. Actually, I did get

11:48

the offer for that company and it

11:51

was my very first offer that I

11:53

scored. I was very happy but when

11:55

I went home and thought about it

11:57

it seemed like a fluke. I just

11:59

got lucky and I didn't feel like

12:02

I solved it on my own. So

12:04

I was feeling a bit of an

12:06

imposter syndrome and I spoke to my

12:08

family about it. I was telling my

12:10

brother, I just got lucky and my

12:12

brother was telling me. But you are

12:14

the one that practiced a question. When

12:16

you had the opportunity to practice it,

12:18

you practiced it. So how can it

12:21

be luck? So I think it's very

12:23

important to practice these technical skills as

12:25

well, in addition to other soft skills

12:27

in interviews. I think this is really,

12:29

if I take this advice from Jane

12:32

and extrapolate it a bit larger, it

12:34

applies to many things we do actually,

12:36

right? When we are thinking of changing

12:38

or learning something something, it adds up.

12:41

to what we actually know, but most

12:43

of the time people tend to avoid

12:45

challenges that want to be comfortable. True,

12:47

but having gone through what you've gone

12:49

through, right, how realistic do you think

12:51

it will be for people who aspire

12:53

to be in your situation? Because I

12:56

think the last thing we want is

12:58

to make people think that it's so

13:00

easy to get it, right? What would

13:02

you say are some tips you would

13:04

give to somebody who's thinking of being

13:06

in your position? I mean, I am

13:08

an average person, right? I'm not someone

13:10

special, I do not have prior knowledge.

13:12

And even when in primary secondary school,

13:14

I don't like science, I don't like

13:16

math, I prefer writing essays, over solving

13:18

for X. So if you are going

13:21

to ask me, I feel that anybody

13:23

can do it, but whether to be

13:25

able to successfully transit into

13:27

tech, I think it takes a lot

13:29

of determination, it takes a lot of

13:31

courage to step out of your current

13:33

role, and you need to like what you

13:36

are going into. One of the biggest

13:38

things to consider would be

13:40

to sort out your financials

13:42

first Because a career transition

13:45

is already very stressful You

13:47

don't need financial pressure on

13:49

top of that So there

13:51

isn't a one-size fit or

13:53

savings amount that I can

13:55

recommend, but it depends on

13:57

everyone's lifestyle everyone's needs and

14:00

another important factor is being honest

14:02

with yourself about your career goals. Money

14:04

is undoubtedly a strong motivator in why

14:06

people want to transit, but beyond financial

14:09

gain, it's not very sustainable if money

14:11

is the sole factor. For me, I

14:13

prioritize more time with my loved ones

14:16

and enjoy the process of continuous learning.

14:18

It is also crucial to research the

14:20

industry before you look into the career

14:23

path that you want to go into.

14:25

So look at their job postings, look

14:27

at what kind of skills they are

14:30

looking for in those job postings, and

14:32

see if there's a viable path towards

14:34

attaining these skills. Rather than chasing those

14:37

hype skills. they might fade within a

14:39

year or two but just focus on

14:41

long-term stability. I did take a look

14:44

at government reports on jobs in demand

14:46

and make sure that this career is

14:48

one of it. You're going to still

14:51

be in demand. Correct. Until you retire.

14:53

Yeah. And last but not least, I

14:55

think if you're coming from a non-stem

14:58

background like me, just take more time.

15:00

before you go into the course to

15:02

learn things so that when it gets

15:05

rigorous, when it gets intense, you will

15:07

not be completely lost. So now that

15:09

you have gotten the job, are there

15:12

days where you have struggled? Some days

15:14

I ask myself, am I really a

15:16

software engineer? In my team, I'm still

15:19

considered a very junior software engineer. I

15:21

have my seniors ahead of me, I

15:23

have my tech lead ahead of me.

15:26

And also not many women, right? Not

15:28

many. When I look at the code

15:30

that they are writing. Sometimes I really

15:32

don't understand. It makes me feel like,

15:35

oh, we're all software engineers. How come

15:37

I don't understand what you're writing? Am

15:39

I really a software engineer? So how

15:42

do you overcome that when these thoughts

15:44

come? You cannot be afraid to ask

15:46

questions. No matter how simple you might

15:49

think it is, just go ahead and

15:51

ask the person. Actually, what is this

15:53

about? we are so worried about asking

15:56

questions we are afraid that our questions

15:58

make us look like we don't know

16:00

yes right but yet asking question is

16:03

like that door to find an answer

16:05

is that door to learn something new

16:07

and if you never ask that question,

16:10

you will come up from that situation

16:12

not knowing what really happened. So I

16:14

really admire what Jane is giving us

16:17

today, like a lot of traits of

16:19

determination, resilience, learnability, very high learnability, and

16:21

I think these are the preconditions actually

16:24

for someone to make a career switch.

16:26

It's not just about going to a

16:28

job that has high in demand, not

16:31

just about that, but also like can

16:33

you sustain and can you last that

16:35

transition? So thank you so much Jane

16:38

for coming on and sharing your story.

16:43

Hi, this is our Ask Me Anything

16:45

segment where we tackle a question you

16:48

have sent us. Our listener quaint sent

16:50

one to us and we're going to

16:52

talk about it. He's in a close-knit

16:54

team of about 15 people and they're

16:56

in a banking sector. One of the

16:58

senior managers came across an opportunity in

17:00

a competing firm and has floated the

17:02

idea to five people in the team.

17:04

including Queen. Now no one has a

17:07

non-compete or a non-solicitation clause in their

17:09

contract, but they are concerned about the

17:11

fallout when they announce their resignation. Before

17:13

we could record this AMA, Queen wrote

17:15

back to me that one of the

17:17

directors that he wants to work with

17:19

pulled out saying that he prefers the

17:21

stability of the current job, but may

17:24

move in nine months time. Quinn is

17:26

not sure what to do now. Should

17:28

he move? And if he does, will

17:30

this mass exodus look bad for all

17:32

of them? I think Tiffany, this is

17:34

a very interesting situation. 15 people are

17:36

moving together? Yeah, 15 people in the

17:38

team, but about five people are gonna

17:40

move. So a third of them are

17:43

gonna move. So it's like the first

17:45

batch? Yes, first batch. Who knows? There

17:47

may be more. All right. I think

17:49

just based on this situation, on this

17:51

situation, right. roasted lens of a happy

17:53

family working together, but I think in

17:55

reality it really doesn't work that way.

17:57

Yeah. Usually moves of big groups of

18:00

people moving across competing firms. They don't

18:02

really happen. When they break it up

18:04

into like batches of the first five,

18:06

sometimes there's a reason why they break

18:08

you into the batches, right? Certain things

18:10

are maybe the first group of people

18:12

are the ones that they really, really

18:14

want. And then after that... things may

18:16

change. It's like nice to have, but

18:19

then our feel bad that we didn't

18:21

bring you across. So we kind of

18:23

floated the idea as well. Yeah, so

18:25

that's what I mean by the rose-intered

18:27

lenses. Usually the higher up, maybe they

18:29

prefer certain employees and then they want

18:31

them to come as a first batch,

18:33

the rest is like see how. I

18:36

think also when such moves are being

18:38

discussed, right? It's not just the demand

18:40

side that may change, but it's also

18:42

on the employee side. Okay, if some

18:44

people in my team move on, I

18:46

have opportunities. Oh, yes, that's true. If

18:48

I stay on, the loyalty may be

18:50

rewarded, I may build a progress further,

18:52

there's a gap, you see. So it's

18:55

not realistic to say everybody will move

18:57

together for the same thing. I think

18:59

the sound of it at the start

19:01

sounds very good, because it sounds like

19:03

very sparthen moment, like we are going

19:05

to go and then everybody is like,

19:07

you know what I would prefer the

19:09

stability like one of the directors that

19:12

he mentioned right would prefer the stability

19:14

and I think when he said I

19:16

might move in nine months time I

19:18

think that possess also sussing out because

19:20

what if also things change within the

19:22

current company if he gets a promotion

19:24

like you say he might not move

19:26

or if the company decides okay this

19:28

is not very yeah there's no double

19:31

workload we're not going to increase headcount

19:33

then maybe he will move but whatever

19:35

is the case There are people who

19:37

want the stability, they don't really want

19:39

the lure of going to something that

19:41

is new, something that pays well now,

19:43

because they want something that it's like

19:45

bird in hand, right? You have the

19:48

bird in hand, why do I want

19:50

to shake my own foundation? So you're

19:52

right, I think maybe what Quinn can

19:54

do is to think, where is he

19:56

at this point in his career, does

19:58

he need the stability or does he

20:00

want to try? something different. So move

20:02

not because it's like a sputtered moment

20:04

but you know do it because he

20:07

wants to. I mean would you say

20:09

that would be your vice as a

20:11

career counselor? Exactly I think when we

20:13

take ownership of our own career we

20:15

think for ourselves and not just rely

20:17

on other people and what they are

20:19

doing it puts the ownership of career

20:21

into our own hands and we are

20:24

more convinced and convicted committed towards how

20:26

we want our career to move forward.

20:28

I mean just imagine right if today

20:30

Quinn makes a move across and then

20:32

he realizes that actually the grass is

20:34

not greener on the other side then

20:36

where do you put that blame you

20:38

blame that because everybody went so that's

20:40

why I also followed on yeah and

20:43

it's not working out for me but

20:45

it's working for everybody else I think

20:47

it's important to think for yourself so

20:49

that you have the ownership yes the

20:51

good thing is work relationships can progress

20:53

into friendships outside of work true so

20:55

the relationships that queen you build up

20:57

with your 14 other people on a

21:00

team it will last pass the companies

21:02

that you are in no matter where

21:04

you are in no matter where you

21:06

are at Now, Queen, I hope our

21:08

conversation has given you some clarity on

21:10

what to do. Let us know what

21:12

you decide. We're really very curious. If

21:14

like Queen, you have a work-related question,

21:16

do write in to us. We're at

21:19

CNA podcasts at metacop.com.org.org. You can also

21:21

find us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, and

21:23

YouTube. The team behind the workhead podcast

21:25

is Christina Robert Joanne Chan, Janani Johari,

21:27

and Sire Win. Sound Mixing by Kerry

21:29

Lim, video by Hanita Amin. I'm Jero.

21:31

And I'm Tiffany. Here's wishing you a

21:33

good work week ahead.