0:06

Welcome, everyone, to Working People,

0:08

a podcast about the

0:10

lives, jobs, dreams, and struggles

0:12

of the working class

0:14

today. Working People is a

0:16

proud member of the Labor

0:18

Radio Podcast Network and is brought

0:21

to you in partnership with

0:23

In These Times Magazine and the

0:25

Real News Network. This show

0:27

is produced by Jules Taylor and

0:29

made possible by the support

0:31

of listeners like you. My name

0:33

is Maximilian Alvarez, and today we

0:35

are continuing our urgent coverage

0:38

of the Trump administration's all

0:40

-out assault on our institutions

0:42

of higher education and the

0:44

people who live, learn, and

0:46

work there. Today, we are

0:49

going deeper into the heart

0:51

of authoritarian darkness that has

0:53

gripped colleges and universities across

0:55

the country. And we're talking

0:57

with two graduate student workers

0:59

at Columbia University. Colombia has

1:02

become ground zero for the

1:04

administration's gangster government -style moves

1:06

to hold billions of

1:08

dollars of federal funding

1:10

hostage in order to

1:12

bend universities to Donald

1:14

Trump's will, to reshape

1:16

the curricula, culture, and

1:18

research infrastructure of American

1:20

higher ed as such,

1:22

and to squash our

1:24

constitutionally protected rights to

1:26

free speech and free

1:28

assembly. all under the

1:30

McCarthyist guise of rooting

1:32

out supposed anti -Semitism,

1:34

which the administration has recategorized

1:36

to mean virtually any

1:38

criticism of and opposition

1:40

to the state of

1:42

Israel, the political ideology

1:44

of Zionism, and Israel's

1:46

U .S.-backed genocide in

1:48

Gaza and ethnic cleansing

1:50

of Palestinians. Just one

1:53

year ago, Columbia University

1:55

was also ground zero

1:57

for the student -led

1:59

Palestine solidarity protests and encampments

2:01

that spread to campuses across

2:03

the country and even around

2:06

the world. It was exactly

2:08

one year ago that the

2:10

first Gaza solidarity encampment began

2:12

at Columbia on April 17,

2:14

2024. And that same month,

2:16

on more than one occasion, Colombia's

2:19

own president at the

2:21

time, Manoush Shafiq, authorized the

2:23

NYPD to descend on

2:25

campus like an occupying force,

2:28

beat and arrest protesters, and

2:30

dismantle the camps. Now fast

2:32

forward to March of this

2:34

year. On Friday, March 7th,

2:36

the Trump administration announced that

2:38

it was canceling $400 million

2:40

in federal grants and contracts

2:42

with Colombia, claiming that the

2:44

move was, quote, due

2:47

to the school's continued inaction

2:49

in the face of persistent

2:51

harassment of Jewish students, end

2:53

quote. The very next day,

2:55

March 8th, Mahmoud Khalil was

2:57

abducted by ICE agents at

2:59

his New York City apartment building

3:01

in front of his pregnant

3:03

wife and disappeared to a

3:05

Louisiana immigration jail. Khalil, a

3:07

Palestinian -born legal resident with

3:09

a green card, had just

3:11

completed his master's program and

3:14

was set to graduate in

3:16

May. He had served as

3:18

a key negotiator with the

3:20

university administration and spokesperson for

3:22

the student encampment last year.

3:24

He is not accused of

3:26

breaking any laws during that

3:28

time. But the Trump administration has

3:30

weaponized a rarely used

3:32

section of the Immigration and

3:35

Nationality Act of 1952,

3:37

invoking the Secretary of State's

3:39

power to deport non -citizens

3:41

if they supposedly believed

3:43

their presence in the country

3:45

could negatively affect U .S.

3:47

foreign policy. Just days

3:49

after Khalil's abduction,

3:52

the university also expelled

3:54

Grant Minor. president

3:56

of the Student Workers of

3:58

Columbia Union, a local of the

4:00

United Auto Workers. And that

4:02

was just one day before

4:04

contract negotiations were set to

4:06

open between the union and

4:08

the university. Quote, on March

4:10

13th, I was expelled from

4:12

Columbia University for participating in

4:14

the protest movement against the

4:16

ongoing genocide in Gaza. Minor

4:18

rights in an op -ed

4:21

for the nation. I was

4:23

not the only one, he

4:25

continues. 22 students, all of

4:27

whom, like me, had been

4:29

cleared of any criminal wrongdoing,

4:31

were either expelled, suspended for

4:33

years, or had their hard -earned

4:35

degrees revoked on the same

4:37

day. all for allegedly occupying

4:39

a building that has been

4:41

occupied at least four times

4:43

throughout Colombia's history, end quote.

4:46

And then there's Yun Sao

4:48

Chung, a 21 -year -old

4:50

undergraduate and legal permanent resident

4:53

who is suing the

4:55

government after ICE moved to

4:57

deport her following her

4:59

arrest on March 5th while

5:01

protesting Colombia's disciplinary actions

5:03

against student protesters. I

5:06

mean... This is just

5:08

a small, terrifying snapshot

5:10

of the broader Orwellian

5:12

nightmare that has become

5:14

all too real all

5:17

too quickly at Columbia

5:19

University. And it is

5:21

increasingly becoming reality around

5:23

the country. And things

5:25

got even darker last week

5:27

with the latest development in Mahmoud

5:30

Khalil's case. As the American

5:32

Civil Liberties Union stated on Friday,

5:34

quote, in a decision that

5:36

appeared to be pre -written, an

5:38

immigration judge ruled immediately after a

5:40

hearing today that Mahmoud Khalil

5:43

is removable under U .S. immigration

5:45

law. This comes less than 48

5:47

hours after the U .S. government

5:49

handed over the, quote, evidence

5:51

they have on Mr. Khalil. which

5:54

included nothing more than a

5:56

letter from Secretary of State Marco

5:58

Rubio that made clear Mr.

6:00

Khalil had not committed a crime

6:03

and was being targeted solely

6:05

based on his speech. He is

6:07

not yet scheduled for deportation,

6:09

end quote. Listen,

6:11

this isn't just a,

6:13

you know, redux of

6:15

McCarthyism and the Red

6:17

Scare. It has elements

6:19

of that, absolutely. But

6:22

it is also monstrously,

6:24

terrifyingly new. I don't know

6:26

how far down this

6:28

road we're going to go.

6:30

All I know is that

6:32

whatever comes next will

6:35

depend on what people of

6:37

conscience do now. Or

6:39

what they don't do.

6:41

Will other universities cave and

6:44

capitulate to Trump as

6:46

quickly as Columbia has? Will

6:48

we see instead faculty,

6:51

staff, students, grad students,

6:53

parents, community members, and

6:55

others coming together on

6:57

campuses across the country

7:00

to fight this? Or

7:02

will fear, submission, silence,

7:04

and self -censorship win out?

7:06

What is it even like

7:08

to be living, working, and

7:10

studying at Columbia University right

7:13

now? Well, today you'll hear

7:15

all about that first hymn

7:17

from our two guests. With

7:19

all of this going on,

7:21

I got to speak with

7:23

Caitlin Liss, a PhD candidate

7:25

in history at Columbia University

7:27

and a member of Student

7:30

Workers of Columbia. And I

7:32

also spoke with Ali Wong,

7:34

a PhD student at the

7:36

Columbia Journalism School and a

7:38

Student Workers of Columbia member

7:40

who was arrested and beaten

7:42

by police during the second

7:44

raid on the Gaza Solidarity

7:47

protests at Columbia on April

7:49

30th, 2024. Here's my

7:51

conversation with Caitlin and Ali,

7:53

recorded on Saturday, April

7:55

12th. Well,

7:58

Caitlin, Ali, thank you both

8:00

so much for joining us today

8:02

on the show. I really

8:04

appreciate it, especially in the midst

8:06

of everything going on right

8:08

now. And I basically wanted to

8:11

start... there and ask if,

8:13

you know, you could tell us

8:15

from your own firsthand experience

8:17

as, you know, student

8:19

workers at Columbia, like what

8:21

is the mood on campus

8:23

and in your life right

8:25

now, especially in light of

8:27

the latest ruling on Mahmoud

8:29

Khalil's case? Okay. Yeah. So

8:31

thank you for having us.

8:33

I'm happy to be here.

8:36

The mood on campus has

8:38

been, you probably won't be

8:40

surprised to hear, pretty bleak,

8:42

pretty bad. We

8:44

found out yesterday that Mahmoud

8:46

Khalil is not going to be

8:48

released from jail in Louisiana.

8:50

I think a lot of us

8:52

were hoping that this ruling

8:55

that was coming up was going

8:57

to be in his favor

8:59

and he would be released. and

9:01

be back home in time to be there

9:03

for the birth of his baby. And

9:06

it didn't happen. And

9:08

I think it's just another

9:10

horrible thing that has

9:12

happened. In a

9:15

month, two months of just

9:17

unrelenting bad news on

9:19

campus. So stuff is

9:21

feeling pretty bad. You know, people

9:23

are afraid, especially international students,

9:25

are afraid to leave their house.

9:27

They're afraid to speak up

9:30

in class. I hear from people

9:32

who are afraid to go

9:34

to a union meeting. And

9:37

even those of us who are citizens. feel

9:41

afraid as well. I mean, I wake

9:43

up every day and I look at my

9:45

phone to see if I've gotten a

9:47

text message telling me that one of my

9:49

friends has been abducted. It's

9:51

just, it's really scary.

9:53

And on top of the

9:55

sort of personal relationships

9:57

with our friends and comrades

9:59

who are at risk,

10:01

there's the sense that also

10:03

our careers, our industry

10:05

are at risk. So,

10:08

you know, I and many

10:10

other members of Student Workers

10:12

of Columbia have spent many

10:14

years dedicated to getting a

10:16

PhD and being in academia.

10:22

increasingly starting to feel like academia might

10:24

not exist for that much longer. So

10:26

it's a it's feeling pretty bleak. Yeah,

10:28

I would definitely agree. And again, thank

10:30

you so much, Max, for having us

10:32

here. It's a real pleasure to be

10:34

able to share our stories and have

10:37

a platform to do that. Yeah, I

10:39

would agree. I think that there is

10:41

a tremendous chilling effect that sunk in

10:43

across the campus. And on one hand,

10:45

it's not. Terribly surprising, considering that's the

10:47

strategy of the Trump administration. On

10:49

the other, it is really a

10:51

defeating feeling to see the momentum that

10:54

we had last year, the ways

10:56

that we were not only telling the

10:58

story, but telling it across the

11:00

world, that all eyes were on Colombia.

11:02

And we had this really incredible

11:04

momentum. And so to see not just

11:06

that lack of momentum, but the

11:08

actual fear that has saturated the entire

11:10

campus, that has indiscriminately permeated people's

11:13

attitudes, whether you're an American citizen. in

11:15

or not, whether you're light skinned

11:17

or not, has been something that's been

11:19

incredibly harrowing. I know that. After

11:21

Mahmoud, I at least had the anticipation

11:23

of quite a bit of activity. But

11:26

between that, Ranjani, the other students,

11:28

and Columbia's capitulation, it actually has

11:30

gone the opposite way in that,

11:32

you know, while I expected there

11:35

to be tons of masks on

11:37

campus after Columbia agreed to have

11:39

a total mask ban, there was

11:41

no one. When I expected to

11:43

see different vigils or protests or

11:45

the breakdown of silos that have

11:47

emerged. across the campus of different

11:49

groups, whether they're student groups or

11:52

faculty groups, just, you know, hoping

11:54

to see some kind of solidarity

11:56

there. It hasn't. And I think

11:58

it's largely because of the chilling

12:00

effect, because that this is the

12:02

strategy of the Trump administration. And

12:05

unfortunately, it's such a dire

12:07

situation that I think it's really

12:09

squashed a lot of the

12:11

fervor and a lot of the

12:13

fearlessness that many of us

12:15

had prior to this moment. You

12:17

know, it feels like an

12:20

ice pick to the heart to

12:22

hear that, you

12:24

know, especially knowing not just,

12:26

you know, like what

12:28

we saw on campuses, you

12:30

know, across the country

12:32

just a year ago, but

12:34

also the long... tradition

12:37

of campus protests and can

12:39

universities and higher education being a

12:41

place of free speech free

12:43

thought free debate and um the

12:45

the right to protest and

12:47

uh you know like lead with

12:49

a moral consciousness you know

12:51

like uh movements that help direct

12:53

you know the the whole

12:55

of society to see that this

12:57

is what um is happening

12:59

here now in front of all

13:01

of us and since you

13:03

you know i I have so

13:05

much more I want to

13:07

ask about. you know, like the

13:09

past month for you both

13:11

on campus. But while we're on

13:13

that subject that Ali, you

13:15

know, just brought up about the

13:17

expectation right now, which I

13:19

have heard echoed, you know, a

13:21

lot of places online and

13:23

offline of, you know, why aren't

13:25

there mass protests across higher

13:27

ed in every state in the

13:29

country right now? Like, you

13:32

know, you would think that, you

13:34

know, the generation, you know,

13:36

of the 60s, you know, would

13:38

do just that if, you know,

13:40

Nixon had tried such a thing.

13:43

And a lot of folks have

13:45

been asking us, like, why aren't

13:47

we seeing that right now? And

13:49

so I wanted to ask, like,

13:51

if y 'all had any thoughts on

13:53

that, and also if that would,

13:55

in your mind, change things. Like,

13:57

if you saw other campuses that

13:59

weren't being targeted as intently as

14:01

Columbia is, if you saw, you

14:03

know, students and faculty

14:05

and others, like, protesting on behalf

14:07

of what's happening to you? Would that

14:09

change the mood on campus, do

14:11

you think? I mean, I think that

14:14

there's a few things going on.

14:16

Part of it is, like Ali said,

14:18

the chilling effect of what's been

14:20

happening is making a really large percentage

14:22

of our members and people in

14:24

our community afraid to publicly take action.

14:28

International student workers make up a

14:30

really big percentage of our

14:32

membership. And a lot of those

14:34

people are afraid to to

14:36

even sign their name to a

14:38

petition. In my department,

14:40

we sent a joint letter

14:42

to the department about what

14:44

was going on, and a

14:46

bunch of students didn't want

14:48

their names appearing on this

14:50

letter that was just being

14:52

sent to the chair of

14:54

the department. So the chilling

14:56

effect is real and very

14:58

strong, and I think that

15:00

that's preventing a lot of

15:02

people from showing up in

15:04

ways that they might have

15:06

done otherwise. I think that

15:08

another Part of it is

15:10

just the kind of unrelenting

15:12

nature of what's been happening.

15:14

It has been one horrible

15:16

thing after another and trying

15:18

to react to everything as

15:20

it comes in is difficult.

15:23

But I don't think it's

15:25

the case that that we're

15:27

not doing anything. We

15:29

are doing quite

15:31

a bit and really

15:34

trying. through many different

15:36

avenues to use our power

15:38

as a union to fight

15:40

back against what's happening. We

15:42

are talking with other unions

15:44

on campus. We talk to

15:46

other higher ed unions across

15:48

the country. And so I

15:50

think that there is quite a lot

15:52

going on, but it does sometimes feel like

15:54

we can't keep up with the pace

15:56

of the things that are happening just because

15:58

they are happening. so quickly

16:00

and accumulating so fast. Yeah, I

16:02

mean, I would definitely agree. I

16:04

think that there's, you know, it's

16:07

the firehose strategy, which has proven

16:09

to be effective, not just on

16:11

Colombia, but across the nation, but

16:13

the dismantling of the federal government,

16:15

attack on institutions, the arts, you

16:18

know, the legal processes and legal

16:20

entities. And so I think

16:22

that, again, that that's part of

16:24

the strategy is to just overwhelm people

16:26

with the number of issues that

16:28

would require attention. And I think that's

16:30

happening. on Columbia's campus as well.

16:32

You know, if we take even divestment

16:34

as an example, where it was

16:36

a pretty straightforward ask last year, but

16:38

now we're seeing an issue on

16:40

campus where it's no longer about Palestine,

16:42

Israel divestment. It's about immigration reform

16:44

and law enforcement. It's about the American

16:46

dream, class consciousness. So many of

16:48

these different things that are happening, not

16:50

just to the student body, but

16:52

to faculty and the administration. And so

16:54

I think that In terms of

16:56

trying to galvanize people, it's a really

16:58

difficult ask when you have so

17:00

many different things that are coming apart

17:02

at the seams. And that's

17:04

not to say it's an insurmountable

17:06

task. As Caitlin mentioned, we are

17:08

moving forward. We are putting infrastructure

17:10

in place and asks in place.

17:13

But I think it's difficult to

17:15

mobilize people around so many different

17:17

issues when everyone already feels not

17:19

only powerless, but cynical about the

17:21

ability to change things when, again,

17:23

that momentum that we had last

17:25

year has weighed. and

17:27

the issues have broadened. Just in

17:29

terms of your question about

17:31

support or solidarity from other campuses,

17:33

I think that one of

17:35

the things that has been... most

17:37

dispiriting about being at Columbia

17:39

right now is that it's clear

17:41

that Columbia is essentially a

17:43

test case for the Trump administration.

17:45

We were the first school

17:47

to be targeted and are still

17:49

in many ways kind of

17:51

the center of attention, but it's

17:53

not just us. But it

17:55

feels like the way that Columbia

17:57

is reacting is kind of

17:59

setting the tone for what other

18:01

universities and colleges

18:03

can do across the

18:06

country. And what Columbia is

18:08

doing is folding. So

18:10

they are setting an example

18:12

that is just rolling

18:14

over and giving up. In

18:17

terms of what other

18:19

colleges can do, I think

18:21

we're seeing other universities

18:23

are reacting to these kinds

18:25

of attacks in ways

18:27

that are much better than

18:29

Columbia has done. We

18:31

just saw that Tufts, I

18:33

think, filed some legal

18:35

documents in support of Rumesa

18:37

Ozturk because she is

18:39

a student there. You know,

18:41

Colombia has done no

18:43

such thing for Ranjani, for

18:45

Yunso, for Mahmood. They

18:48

haven't even mentioned them. And

18:50

so we can see other

18:52

universities are reacting in ways

18:54

that are better. And I

18:56

think that that gives us.

18:59

And not only does it not only

19:01

gives us hope, but it gives us

19:03

also something to point to when people

19:05

at Columbia say, well, Columbia can't do

19:07

things any differently. It's like, well, clearly

19:09

it can because these other universities are

19:12

doing something. Columbia doesn't have to be

19:14

doing this. It is making a choice

19:16

to completely give in to everything that

19:18

Trump is demanding. And I would also

19:20

add to that point and going back

19:22

to your question about Mahmoud and sort

19:24

of how. either us

19:26

individually or collectively are feeling

19:28

about that. To Caitlin's point, I

19:30

think there's so much that's

19:32

symbolic about Colombia, whether it has

19:34

to do with Trump's personal

19:36

pettiness or the fact that it

19:38

was kind of the epicenter

19:40

of the encampments last year. I

19:42

think what happened with Mahmoud

19:44

is incredibly symbolic. If you look

19:46

at particularly him and Ranjani,

19:48

the first two that were targeted

19:50

by the university, so much

19:52

of their... situations are almost comical

19:54

in how they play into

19:56

the ambiguity of policy and quote

19:58

-unquote anti -Semitism where you look

20:00

at Mahmoud and he it's almost

20:02

funny that he was the

20:04

person who was targeted because he's

20:06

an incredibly calm, gentle

20:09

person. He provided a sense

20:11

of peace during the chaos

20:13

of last year. He has

20:15

unequivocally condemned Hamas very publicly,

20:17

condemned terrorism, condemned anti -Semitism. You know,

20:19

so if you are looking for someone

20:22

who would be a great example,

20:24

he's not really one, considering they don't

20:26

have any evidence on him. And

20:28

the same thing for Ranjini, who literally

20:30

wasn't even in the country when

20:32

October 7th happened in that entire year,

20:34

had never participated in the protests.

20:37

at most had kind of engaged with

20:39

social media by liking things. But

20:41

two really good examples of people who

20:43

don't actually quite fit the bill

20:45

in terms of trying to root out,

20:47

quote unquote, anti -Semitism. But in my

20:49

mind, it's really strategic because it

20:51

really communicates that nobody is safe. Whether

20:54

you've participated in protests or not,

20:56

you're not safe. Whether you've condemned anti

20:58

-Semitism or not, you're not safe. And

21:00

I think that plays into the

21:02

symbolic nature of Colombia as well, where

21:04

Trump is trying to make an

21:06

example out of Colombia and out of

21:09

Colombia's students. And we see that

21:11

very clearly in the ruling yesterday with

21:13

Mahmoud. Again,

21:15

that's not to say that it's not

21:17

an insurmountable thing, but it's disappointing

21:19

and it's frankly embarrassing to be a

21:21

part of an institution that brags

21:24

about its long history of protests, its

21:26

long history of social change through

21:28

student movements. When you look at 1968

21:30

and Columbia called the NYPD on

21:32

students, arrested 700 students, and yet it

21:34

kind of enshrines that moment in

21:36

history as a place of pride. And

21:39

I see that happening right now

21:41

as well, where... know, 20, 30, 50

21:43

years from now, we'll be looking

21:45

at this moment and Columbia would be

21:47

proud of it when really they're

21:49

the perpetrators of violence and hatred and

21:51

bigotry and kind of turning the

21:54

gun on their own students. So,

21:57

yeah, it's it's a really precarious

21:59

time to be a Columbia student

22:01

and to be advocating for ourselves

22:03

and our friends, our brothers and

22:05

sisters who are experiencing this kind

22:07

of oppression and persecution from our

22:09

own country. You know, Ali, Caitlin,

22:11

I want. to ask if we

22:13

could like, you know, again, take

22:16

that step back to the beginning

22:18

of March, right? You know, where,

22:20

where things were, this, this terrifying

22:22

new reality was really, um, you

22:24

know, ramping up, um, with

22:27

the, you know, Trump

22:29

administration's, uh, freezing, uh, and,

22:31

and threatening of, completely

22:34

withholding $400 million in federal

22:36

funds and grants to

22:38

Columbia just one day before

22:40

Mahmoud Khalil was abducted

22:42

by ICE agents and disappeared

22:45

to a jail in

22:47

Louisiana, thousands of miles away.

22:50

So from that point to now,

22:52

I wanted to ask as, you

22:54

know, self -identified student

22:56

workers at Columbia University like how

22:58

have you and others you

23:00

know been feeling throughout all of

23:02

this as it's been unfolding

23:04

and trying to get through your

23:06

day -to -day like work like

23:08

what does that even look like

23:10

teaching and researching under

23:13

these terrifying circumstances? For me, it

23:15

has been incredibly scary. As

23:17

you mentioned, I was someone who

23:19

was arrested and beaten last

23:21

year after the second Gaza Solidarity

23:23

encampment raid and have spoken

23:26

quite publicly about it. I authored

23:28

a number of pieces around

23:30

that time and since then and

23:32

have been pretty open about

23:34

my involvement, kind of serving, being

23:37

okay serving as a lightning

23:39

rod for a lot of that.

23:41

PR stuff. And so for

23:44

me, coming into this

23:46

iteration students' battles with

23:48

the university, it's been really scary

23:50

to kind of see how many

23:52

of the students that I was

23:54

arrested with, many of my friends

23:56

and colleagues are now either being

23:58

targeted because of their involvement or

24:00

living in the fear of being

24:02

targeted because there is an opacity

24:04

around what those policies are and

24:06

how they're being enforced and implemented.

24:08

So it really does feel quite

24:10

McCarthyist in the sense that you

24:12

don't really know what the dangers

24:14

are, but you know that they're

24:16

there. You're kind of looking over

24:18

your shoulder all the time. I

24:20

don't leave my house without wearing

24:22

a mask just because through this

24:24

whole process. Many students have been

24:26

doxed. Both Caitlin and myself have

24:28

been doxed quite heavily through Canary

24:30

Mission and other groups online. And

24:32

many folks have experienced offline behavior

24:34

that has been threatening or scary

24:36

to their own physical, emotional security.

24:38

And so that's been a big

24:40

piece for me is just being

24:42

aware of my surroundings, being mindful

24:44

of when I leave the house.

24:47

In many respects, it does feel

24:49

like I'm growing. in paranoia. But

24:51

at the same time, I consider

24:54

it a moral obligation to be

24:56

on the front lines as a

24:58

light skinned US citizen to be

25:00

serving as a literal and figurative

25:02

shield for my international brothers and

25:04

sisters. And so it's it's an

25:07

interesting place as particularly a US

25:09

citizen to say, you know, what

25:11

is my responsibility to the people

25:13

around me? What's my responsibility to

25:15

myself and keeping myself in my

25:17

home safe? What's my responsibility for

25:19

sticking? up for those who are

25:22

targeted as someone who has the

25:24

privilege of being able to be

25:26

a citizen. And so I think

25:28

it's a kind of a confusing

25:30

time for those of us on

25:32

the ground wanting to... do more,

25:35

wanting to help, wanting to offer

25:37

our assistance with the privileges that

25:39

we have. And everyone's level

25:41

of comfort is different. And so my

25:43

expectation is not that other people would

25:45

take the kinds of risks I'm taking,

25:47

but everyone has a part to play.

25:49

And whether that's a visual part or

25:51

a non -visual part, like being in

25:53

the public, it doesn't really matter. We

25:55

all have a part to play. And

25:57

so given what we talked about, just

26:00

about the strategy of the Trump administration

26:02

and the objectives to make us fearful.

26:04

and make us not speak out. I

26:06

think it's more important now than ever

26:08

for those of us who are able

26:10

to have the covering of U .S. citizenship

26:12

to be doing everything in our

26:15

power with the resources we've been

26:17

given to take those risks because

26:19

it's much more important now in

26:21

this administration than it's ever been.

26:23

Yeah. And I think, you know,

26:25

on top of the stuff Ali's

26:28

talking about, we we do still

26:30

have to continue doing our jobs.

26:32

So for me, that is teaching.

26:34

I'm teaching a class this semester

26:36

and and that has been very

26:38

challenging to do. Having

26:40

to continue going in and talking

26:42

about the subject matter, which

26:45

is stuff that is very interesting

26:47

to me personally and that

26:49

I'm very excited to be teaching

26:51

about in the classroom. But

26:53

at the same time, there's so

26:55

much going on on campus.

26:57

It just feels impossible to to

26:59

be turning our attention to

27:01

like Suad Juana, you know, and.

27:04

And I hear from my

27:06

students are scared. So

27:08

part of my job has

27:10

become having to help

27:12

my students through that. I

27:15

have heard lots of people who are

27:17

trying to move their classes off campus

27:20

because students don't want to be on

27:22

campus right now. Ice

27:25

is crawling all over campus. The

27:27

NYPD is all over the place.

27:30

I don't know if you

27:32

saw this, but... has agreed

27:34

to to hire these 36

27:36

quote unquote peace officers who

27:38

are going to be on

27:40

campus and have arresting power.

27:42

So now essentially we have

27:44

cops on campus full time. And

27:47

then on top of all of that,

27:50

you have to wait in these like

27:52

horrible security lines to even get onto

27:54

campus. So the environment on campus doesn't

27:56

feel safe. So my students. don't

27:58

feel safe. I don't think anyone's students

28:00

feel safe right now. My

28:02

colleagues who are international students don't feel

28:04

safe. I had a friend ask

28:06

me what to do because she was

28:08

TAing for a class and she

28:10

wasn't allowed to move it off campus

28:12

or onto Zoom. And she said,

28:14

I don't feel safe on campus because

28:16

I'm an international student. And what

28:18

am I going to do if ICE

28:20

comes to the door? I

28:23

don't know what I'm supposed to do

28:25

in that situation. The

28:28

students are scared. My colleagues are scared.

28:30

I've even heard from a lot of

28:32

professors who are feeling like they have

28:34

to watch their words in the classroom

28:36

because they don't want to end up

28:38

on canary mission for having said something.

28:40

So that's quite difficult. Teaching in this

28:42

environment is very difficult. And I think

28:45

that the students are having a really

28:47

hard time. And then on

28:49

top of that, I'm in the

28:51

sixth year of my PhD. So I'm

28:53

supposed to be writing a dissertation

28:55

right now. And that is also quite

28:57

difficult to be keeping up with

28:59

my research, which is supposed to be

29:01

a big part of the PhD

29:03

is producing research. And it's really hard

29:05

to do right now because it

29:07

feels like we have, you know, my

29:10

friends and my colleagues are at

29:12

risk right now. So that's quite. difficult

29:14

to maintain your attention in all

29:16

those different places. Just just one more

29:18

piece to add, because I know

29:20

that we've been pretty negative and it

29:22

is a pretty negative situation. So

29:24

it's I don't want to silver line

29:26

things. That being said, I do

29:28

feel as though there's it's been really

29:30

beautiful to see people step up

29:32

and really beautiful to see this kind

29:34

of. symbiotic relationship happening

29:36

between U .S. students and international students.

29:38

I'm at the journalism school, which

29:41

is overwhelmingly international. And I was really

29:43

discouraged when there was a report

29:45

that came out from the New York

29:47

Times a couple of weeks ago

29:49

about a closed town hall that we

29:51

had where our Dean Jelani Cobb

29:53

more or less said to students, you

29:55

know, we can't protect you. Like

29:57

as much as I would love to

29:59

be able to say, here are

30:01

the processes and protocols and the ways.

30:04

to keep yourself safe in the

30:06

ways that we're here to support you.

30:08

But he just said, we can't.

30:10

And he got a lot of flack

30:12

for that, you know, because that's

30:14

a pretty horrible thing for a dean

30:16

to say. But I actually really

30:18

appreciated it because it was the most

30:20

honest and direct thing he could

30:22

have said to students when the university

30:24

itself was just sending us barrages

30:27

of emails with these empty platitudes about

30:29

values and a 270 year history

30:31

of free thinking and all this nonsense.

30:34

That being said, I think that it

30:36

was a really difficult story to

30:38

read. But at the same time, it's

30:40

been really beautiful to see community

30:42

gather around and cling together. When there

30:45

are unknowns, people kind of taking

30:47

notes for each other when students don't

30:49

feel comfortable going to campus. Students

30:51

starting to host off

30:53

campus, you know, happy hour

30:56

groups and sit -ins together

30:58

and things of that

31:00

nature that have been really,

31:02

again, amazing. to see happen under such

31:04

terrible circumstances and people just wanting to

31:07

help each other out in the ways

31:09

that they can. You know, Caitlin. Ali,

31:11

you were just giving us,

31:13

you know, like a pretty harrowing,

31:15

you know, a view of,

31:17

know, your day to day reality

31:19

there as student workers of

31:21

Columbia, you know, PhD, you

31:23

know, working on your PhDs

31:25

and dealing with all of this

31:27

Orwellian madness that we've been

31:29

talking about today. When I was

31:31

listening to you both, like

31:33

I was hearing so many kind

31:35

of resonances from my own

31:37

experience, you know, just one. sort

31:39

of like a decade back,

31:41

right? I mean, like, because I

31:43

remember being a PhD candidate

31:45

at the University of Michigan during

31:48

the first Trump administration and

31:50

co -founding, you know, for full

31:52

disclosure, you know, I was a

31:54

member of the grad union

31:56

there. I was a co -founder

31:58

of the Campus Anti -Fascist Network.

32:00

I was doing a lot of

32:02

public writing. I started this

32:04

podcast in that sort of era.

32:07

And there were so many things

32:09

that y 'all were talking about that

32:11

sounded similar, like, you know, from

32:13

the fear of, like, websites like

32:15

Canary Mission, putting people's names out

32:17

there and encouraging them to be

32:19

doxxed and disciplined and even deported.

32:21

Like, that resonated with me, you

32:24

know, because it just ate nine,

32:26

you know, years ago. That was,

32:28

you know, groups like Turning Point

32:30

USA. They were the ones, like,

32:32

you know, trying to... professors uh

32:34

you know in class and then

32:36

you know like send it to

32:38

Breitbart and hopefully get it into

32:40

the Fox News outrage cycle and

32:42

and and I experienced uh you

32:44

know some of that but What

32:46

I'm hearing also is just that,

32:48

you know, the things we were

32:50

dealing with, you know, during the

32:52

first Trump administration are not, you

32:54

know, what y 'all are dealing

32:56

with now. Like there is first

32:58

and foremost a fully like the

33:00

state is now part of it.

33:02

The state is now sort of

33:05

leading that. It's not just the

33:07

sort of, you know, far

33:09

right groups and, you know,

33:11

people online and that kind of

33:13

thing. But also it feels

33:15

like the mechanisms of surveillance and

33:17

punishment. are entirely different

33:19

as well. I wanted to ask

33:21

if y 'all could speak a little

33:23

more to that side of things,

33:25

like it's not just the university

33:28

administration that you're contending with, you're

33:30

contending with a lot of different

33:32

forces here that are converging on

33:34

you and your rights at this

33:36

very moment. Yeah, I mean, I

33:38

think the one thing that has

33:40

been coming up a lot for

33:42

us, you know, we're used to

33:45

fighting Columbia, the institution

33:48

for our rights

33:50

in the workplace for

33:52

fair pay. And

33:54

and Columbia has always

33:57

been a very stubborn adversary,

33:59

very difficult to get

34:01

anything out of them. Our

34:03

first contract fight lasted

34:06

for years. And

34:08

and now we're

34:10

looking at not just

34:12

Columbia as. someone

34:14

to be sort of fighting

34:16

with. But the federal government

34:19

as a whole, and it's

34:21

quite scary. I think we

34:23

talked about this a little

34:25

bit about international students being

34:27

afraid to participate in protests,

34:30

being afraid to go to union meetings.

34:32

We're hearing a lot of fear

34:34

from people who aren't citizens about to

34:36

what extent participating in the union

34:38

is safe for them right now. And

34:40

on the one hand, you want

34:43

to say, You know, participating

34:45

in a union is a protected

34:47

activity. There's nothing illegal about it.

34:49

You can't get in trouble. In

34:51

fact, it's illegal to retaliate against

34:53

you for being in a union.

34:55

But on the other hand, it

34:57

doesn't necessarily feel like the law

34:59

is being that protective right now.

35:01

So so it's a very scary

35:03

place to be in. And I

35:06

think that that from our point

35:08

of view, sort of the main

35:10

the main. tool we have in

35:12

this moment is just our solidarity

35:14

with one another and labor power

35:16

as a union, because the federal

35:18

government does not seem that interested

35:20

in protecting our rights as a

35:22

union. And so we have to

35:24

rely on each other in order

35:26

to fight for what what we

35:28

need and what will make our

35:31

workplace safe. Well, and I was

35:33

wondering, Ali, if I could also

35:35

toss it to you there, because

35:37

this makes me think of something

35:39

you said earlier about kind of

35:41

like how the conditions, you know,

35:43

at Columbia, the structure of Columbia,

35:45

how Columbia's run, you know, have

35:47

sort of made it vulnerable to

35:49

what's happening now or, you

35:52

know, like, you know, the

35:54

ways that Columbia talks about itself

35:56

versus the way versus like

35:58

what Columbia actually is are. quite

36:00

stark here. And connecting that

36:02

to what Caitlin just said, you

36:04

know, I think it should

36:06

also be understood as someone who

36:08

has covered, you know, grad

36:10

student, you know, campaigns,

36:13

contract campaigns at

36:15

Columbia and elsewhere, that,

36:17

you know, when

36:19

these sorts of strikes

36:21

are happening. When

36:23

when, you know, graduate

36:25

student workers are taking action

36:27

against the administration, the

36:29

first ones that are threatened

36:31

by the administration with

36:33

punitive measures, including potentially the

36:35

revocation of their visas,

36:37

are international students like they

36:39

have always been the

36:41

most vulnerable members of grad

36:44

student unions that administrations

36:46

have actually used as leverage

36:48

to compel unions. to

36:50

bend to their demands. So

36:52

I make that point,

36:54

speaking only for myself here

36:56

as a journalist who

36:58

has observed this in many

37:00

other times, that this

37:02

precedent of going after international

37:04

students in the way

37:06

the Trump administration is, didn't

37:09

just come out of

37:11

nowhere. Exactly, yeah. So,

37:13

I mean, I think if

37:15

you even look at how Trump

37:17

campaigned, he really doubled down

37:19

on immigration policy. I mean, it's

37:21

the most... statement, I can

37:23

say, but the hyperbole, the hatred,

37:25

the racism, you see that

37:27

as a direct map onto what's

37:29

happening right now. And I

37:31

think that's part of what maybe

37:33

isn't unique about Columbia, but

37:36

when you, as we're starting to

37:38

see other universities take a

37:40

stand, you know, Caitlin mentioned Tufts.

37:42

I know Princeton also recently

37:44

kind of said that they would

37:46

not capitulate, you know, so

37:48

there is precedent for something

37:50

different from how Colombia has

37:52

behaved. And I think you

37:54

see them just playing exactly

37:56

into Trump's hands, folding to

37:58

his kind of proxy policy

38:00

of wanting to make Colombia

38:02

an example. And it's a

38:04

really disappointing thing from a

38:06

university that kind of prides

38:08

itself on its liberal values,

38:11

prides itself on its diversity,

38:13

on protecting students when you actually

38:15

see quite the opposite. Not only

38:17

is Columbia not just not doing

38:19

anything, it's actively participating in what's

38:21

happening on campus. The fact that

38:23

they have yet to even name

38:25

the students who have very publicly

38:27

been abducted or chased out of

38:29

the country because of their complicity.

38:31

The fact that they will send

38:34

these emails or make these statements

38:36

about value. but actually not tell

38:38

us anything that's going to be

38:40

helpful, like how policies will be

38:42

implemented, when they're going to be

38:44

implemented, what these ICE agents look

38:46

like. Things of that nature

38:48

that could be done to protect

38:50

students and also obviously not negotiating

38:52

in good faith. The fact that

38:54

Grant was expelled and fired the

38:56

day before we had a collective

38:58

bargaining meeting, right before we're about

39:01

to talk about protections for international

39:03

students, just communicates that the university

39:05

is not operating in good faith.

39:07

They're not interested in the well

39:09

-being of their students or doing

39:11

anything within their power, which is

39:13

quite a tremendous power. to

39:16

say to the Trump administration,

39:18

our students come first. Our

39:20

students are an entity of

39:22

us, and we're going to

39:24

do whatever we can in

39:26

our power to block you

39:28

from demonizing and targeting international

39:30

students who, as you said,

39:32

are the most vulnerable people

39:34

on our campus, but also

39:36

those who bring so much

39:38

diversity and brilliance and life

39:40

to our university and our

39:42

country. On

39:44

the subject of international students,

39:46

you're right that they have

39:49

always been in a more

39:51

precarious position. higher

39:53

ed unions. But on the other hand,

39:55

I think that that shows us what power

39:57

we do have as a union. I'm

39:59

thinking, so we've been talking a lot about

40:01

to what extent it's safe for international

40:03

workers to stay involved in the union. And,

40:05

you know, our contract is expiring in

40:07

June, which is why we're having these bargaining

40:10

sessions. And we're talking

40:12

about, you know, going on strike

40:14

next fall, potentially. And there's

40:16

a lot of questions about to

40:18

what extent can international students participate now,

40:20

because who knows what kind of

40:22

they're going to have. And I've been

40:24

thinking about the last time we

40:26

went on strike. It was

40:28

a 10 week strike and we were

40:31

striking through the end of the semester.

40:33

It was the fall semester and we

40:35

were still on strike when the

40:37

semester ended. And Columbia said that if

40:39

they that if we didn't come off

40:41

strike, that they weren't going to rehire

40:44

the workers who were striking for

40:46

the next semester. So anyone who was

40:48

on strike wouldn't get hired for a

40:50

position in the spring semester. And for

40:52

international students, that was going to

40:54

affect their visa status. So it was

40:56

very scary for them. And

40:58

we, of course, said that's illegal. You

41:00

can't that's retaliation for us for going on

41:03

strike. You can't do that. And they

41:05

said it's not illegal because we're just not

41:07

rehiring you. And it was

41:09

this real moment of risk, even though

41:11

we felt much more confident in

41:13

the legal protection, because it felt like

41:15

they could still do it. And

41:17

our recourse would have to be going

41:19

to court. winning

41:21

the case that this was illegal.

41:23

So it was still very scary

41:25

for international students. But we we

41:27

voted together to stay on strike

41:29

and we held the line. And

41:31

Columbia did not, in fact, want

41:34

to fire all all of us

41:36

who were on strike. And we

41:38

won a contract anyway, even though

41:40

there was this scary moment for

41:42

international students even back then. And

41:44

I have been telling people

41:47

this story when we are thinking

41:49

about protections for international students

41:51

now, because I think that the

41:53

moral of the story is

41:55

that even under a situation where

41:57

there's a lot more sort

41:59

of legal security and legal protection,

42:01

it's still scary. And the

42:04

way that you get over it

42:06

being scary is by trusting

42:08

that everyone coming together and standing

42:10

together. is what's going

42:12

to win and rather than

42:14

whatever the legal protection might be.

42:16

You know, Caitlin and Allie,

42:18

I have so many more, you

42:20

know, thoughts and questions. But,

42:22

you know, I know that we

42:24

only have about 10 minutes

42:26

left here. And I want to

42:28

use the time that we

42:30

have left with y 'all to

42:32

sort of, you know, tug on

42:34

the thread that you were

42:36

just pulling there, Caitlin, you know,

42:38

like. Looking at this through

42:40

the union's perspective or like through

42:42

a labor perspective, can you

42:44

frame these attacks on higher ed

42:46

and the people who live,

42:48

learn and work there? Through

42:51

a labor and working workers'

42:53

rights perspective and talk about

42:55

kind of what your message

42:57

is to other union members

42:59

and other people who listen

43:01

to the show who are

43:04

working people, union and non

43:06

-union, why this is important,

43:08

why they need to care

43:10

and what people can do

43:12

about it. It's very clear

43:14

why it's important and why

43:16

other workers should care. You

43:18

know, the funding cuts to

43:21

Columbia University and others. universities

43:23

really threaten not just the

43:25

university, but the whole ecosystem

43:27

of research. So these are

43:29

people's careers that are at

43:31

risk and careers that not

43:33

only, you know, they have

43:35

an interest in having, but

43:38

careers that benefit. Everyone

43:40

in our society, people who

43:42

do public health research, people

43:44

who do medical research, people

43:46

who do research about climate

43:48

change, like these are really

43:50

important jobs that they're just

43:52

the opportunities to pursue them

43:54

are vanishing. And so that

43:56

obviously is important. And then

43:58

when we're looking at the

44:00

attacks on international students, you

44:03

know, if Mahmoud Khalil can

44:05

be abducted for speaking out. in

44:07

support of Palestine and against the

44:09

genocide in Gaza, then none of

44:12

us are safe. No worker is

44:14

safe if the government can just

44:16

abduct you and deport you for

44:18

something like that. I mean, on

44:20

the one hand... Even people who

44:22

aren't citizens are protected by the

44:24

First Amendment. But also, it's not

44:26

clear that that's where they're going

44:28

to stop. So I think that

44:31

this is a moment that we

44:33

should all take very seriously. I

44:35

mean, it's very serious for the

44:37

future of higher education as a

44:39

whole. I feel like we are

44:41

in sort of an existential fight

44:43

here. And at the moment, Colombia

44:45

is just... completely

44:47

welcoming this fascist takeover with open

44:49

arms. And it threatens higher ed

44:52

as an institution. What kind of

44:54

university is this if the Middle

44:56

Eastern Studies Department is being controlled

44:58

by some outside force who says

45:00

what they can and can't teach?

45:02

And now Trump is threatening to

45:05

put all of Columbia under some

45:07

consent decree. So we're going to

45:09

have to be beholden to whatever

45:11

the Trump administration. says we're allowed

45:13

to do on campus. So it's

45:15

a major threat to higher education,

45:17

but it's also a threat, I

45:20

think, in a much larger sense

45:22

to workers all over the country

45:24

because it is sending the message

45:26

that none of us are safe.

45:28

No one is safe to express

45:30

ourselves. We can't expect to be

45:32

safe in the workplace. And

45:35

it's really important that as a

45:37

labor union that we take a

45:39

stand here because It is not

45:41

just destroying our workplaces, but sort

45:43

of it's threatening everyone's workplace. Exactly.

45:45

That's exactly what I was thinking,

45:47

too. I know it's such an

45:50

overused word at this point, but

45:52

I think a huge aspect of

45:54

this has to do with precedence

45:56

and how. As we were

45:58

mentioning, Colombia is so symbolic

46:00

for a lot of reasons, including

46:02

the fact that all eyes

46:04

are on Colombia. And so when

46:06

Colombia sets a precedent for

46:08

what can and cannot be done

46:10

by university administration in caving

46:12

to the federal government, I think

46:14

that sets a precedent for

46:16

not just academic institutions, but institutions

46:18

writ large and the workers

46:20

that work in those institutions. Because

46:22

what happens here is happening. across

46:25

the federal government and will happen

46:27

to institutions everywhere. And so I

46:29

think it's really critical that we

46:31

bake trust back into our systems,

46:33

both trust in administrations

46:35

by having them prove that they

46:37

do have our backs and they do

46:39

care about student workers, but also

46:41

that they trust student workers. They trust

46:44

us to do the really important

46:46

research that keeps the heartbeat of this

46:48

university alive. And I think

46:50

that it's going to crumble

46:52

not just Columbia, but other academic

46:54

institutions if really critical research

46:56

gets defunded, research that doesn't just

46:59

affect right now. affects

47:01

our country in perpetuity in the

47:03

kinds of opportunities that will be presented

47:05

later in the future, the kinds

47:07

of research that will be instrumental in

47:09

making our society a healthier and

47:11

more equitable place in the future. And

47:13

so this isn't just a moment

47:15

in time, but it's one that absolutely

47:18

will ripple out into history. And

47:20

we happen right now to be sort

47:22

of fortunately bargaining a new contract

47:24

as we speak. So like I said

47:26

before, our contract is expiring in

47:28

June. And

47:30

so for us, obviously, these kinds

47:32

of issues are the top of

47:34

mind when we're thinking about what we

47:36

can get in the contract. So

47:39

in what way is this contract

47:41

that we're bargaining for going to be

47:43

able to help us? So we're

47:45

fighting for Columbia to restore the

47:47

funding cuts. We're fighting for them to

47:49

instate a sanctuary campus and to

47:51

reinstate. Grant Minor, our

47:53

president, who was expelled, and

47:55

Ranjani Srinivasan, who was de -enrolled,

47:57

and everyone else who has

47:59

been expelled or experienced sanctions

48:01

because of their protest for

48:03

Palestine. And so in a

48:05

lot of ways, I think

48:07

that the contract fight is

48:10

a big part of what

48:12

we're concentrating on right now.

48:14

But there's also, you know,

48:16

there's many unions on

48:18

Columbia's campus. There's the postdoc

48:20

union, UAW 4100. There's

48:22

the support staff and the

48:25

Barnard contingent faculty who

48:27

are UAW 2110. There's

48:29

building service employees. I think

48:31

they're 32BJ and the maintenance

48:33

staff is TWU. So there's

48:35

many unions on campus. And

48:37

I think about this a

48:39

lot because I think what

48:41

we're seeing. is, you

48:43

know, we haven't mentioned the

48:45

trustees yet, I don't think.

48:47

But recently, our interim president,

48:49

Katrina Armstrong, stepped down and

48:51

was replaced by an acting

48:54

president, was the former co -chair

48:56

of the board of trustees,

48:58

Claire Shipman. And in many

49:00

ways, I think what we've

49:02

been seeing happening at Columbia

49:04

is the result of the

49:06

board of trustees not caving,

49:08

but... welcoming the things that

49:10

Trump is demanding, I think

49:12

that they are complicit in

49:14

this. But, you know,

49:16

the Board of Trustees is like

49:19

21 people. There's not very many

49:21

of them. And there's thousands of

49:23

us at Columbia who actually are

49:25

the people who make the university

49:27

work, the students, the faculty, the

49:29

staff, thousands of people in unions,

49:32

thousands of non -unionized students and workers

49:34

on campus as well. We

49:38

outnumber the trustees by such

49:40

a huge amount. And I

49:42

think that thinking about the

49:44

power we have when we

49:46

all come together is the

49:48

thousands of people who do

49:51

the actual work of the

49:53

university as opposed to these

49:55

21 people who are making

49:57

decisions. for us

49:59

without consulting us that we don't

50:01

want. And that's the

50:03

way we have to think about reclaiming

50:05

the university. I think we have

50:08

to try and take back the power

50:10

as workers, as students, as faculty

50:12

from the board of trustees and start

50:14

thinking about how we can make

50:16

decisions that are in our interests. One

50:19

more thing that I wanted to call out,

50:21

I'm not sure where this fits in. I think

50:23

Caitlin talking about the board of trustees made

50:25

me think of it, is just the fact that

50:27

I think that another big

50:29

issue is the fact that

50:31

there's this very amorphous idea

50:33

of anti -Semitism that all of

50:35

this is being done under

50:37

the banner of. And I

50:39

think that it's incredibly problematic

50:41

because, first of all, what

50:43

is anti -Semitism? You know,

50:45

it's this catch -all phrase that

50:47

is used to weaponize against

50:49

dissents. And I think that

50:51

when you look at the

50:53

track record of these now

50:55

three presidents, we've had in

50:57

the past year, each of

50:59

them has condemned anti -Semitism

51:01

but has not condemned other

51:03

forms of racism, including and

51:05

especially Islamophobia that has permeated

51:07

our campus. And because

51:09

everything is done under the banner

51:11

of anti -Semitism and you have folks

51:13

like Claire Shipman who have been

51:16

aligned with Zionist organizations, it also

51:18

erodes the trust in of

51:20

the student body, but then especially

51:22

student workers, many of whom are

51:24

Jewish and many of whom are

51:26

having their research be threatened under

51:28

the banner of anti -Semitism being

51:30

done in their name. And yet

51:32

it's the thing that is stunting

51:34

their ability to thrive at this

51:36

university. And so I think that

51:39

as we talk about the administration

51:41

and board of trustees, just calling

51:43

out the hypocrisy there of how

51:45

they are behaving on campus, the

51:47

ways that they're capitulating and doing

51:49

it. under the guise of protecting

51:51

Jewish students, but in the process

51:53

of actually made— Jewish students and

51:55

faculty a target by not only

51:57

withholding their funding, but also saying

51:59

that this is all to Jewish

52:01

students, but have created a more

52:03

threatening environment than existed before. Yeah.

52:06

I mean, as a Jewish student,

52:08

personally, I'm about to go to

52:10

my family's Seder to talk about

52:12

celebrating liberation from oppression while our

52:14

friends and colleagues are sitting in

52:16

jail. It's

52:18

quite depressing and quite horrific to

52:20

see people saying that they're doing

52:22

this to to protect Jews when

52:25

it's so clearly not the case.

52:27

Well, you know, I wanted to

52:29

ask you in just like this,

52:31

this final two minutes that we

52:33

got here, like I want to

52:35

bring it back down to that

52:37

level, you know, to to again,

52:39

remind folks listening that, you know,

52:41

this this is. That

52:43

you both are, you know, student

52:46

workers, you are working people just

52:48

like everyone else that we talked

52:50

to on this show. And like,

52:52

you know, I as a former,

52:54

you know, graduate student worker can't

52:56

help but, you know, identify

52:58

with the situation that y 'all are

53:00

in. But it makes me think

53:02

about, you know, the conversations I

53:05

had with my family when I was

53:07

on the job market and I

53:09

was, you know, like, you know, trying

53:11

to get go from being a

53:13

PhD student to, you know, a faculty

53:15

member somewhere. And, you know, hearing

53:17

that maybe my political activism or my

53:19

public writing would be like a

53:21

mark against me in my, you know,

53:23

quest to get that career that

53:25

I'd worked so many years for. And

53:28

just having that in the

53:30

back of my mind, but, you

53:32

know, that still seems so

53:34

far away and so minuscule in

53:36

comparison to what y 'all are

53:38

dealing with. And I just

53:40

wanted to ask, like, as ACT

53:42

scholars, as people working on

53:44

your careers as well, like, how

53:46

are you talking to your

53:48

families about this? And, like, what

53:50

future in or outside of

53:52

academia do you feel is, like...

53:54

still open to you when

53:56

people graduate, you know, student workers

53:58

like yourselves in today's higher

54:00

ed? I mean, the job market

54:03

for history PhDs has been

54:05

quite bad for a long time,

54:07

even before this. So

54:09

I mean, when I started the

54:11

PhD program, I think I knew that

54:13

I might not get a job

54:15

in academia. And it's sad because I

54:17

really love it. I love teaching,

54:19

especially. But

54:21

at the end of the day,

54:24

I don't feel like it's a

54:26

choice to stop. Speaking up about

54:28

what's happening to stop condemning what's

54:30

happening in Gaza, to stop condemning

54:32

the sort of fascist takeover of

54:34

our government and the attacks on

54:36

our on our colleagues. It's just

54:38

I I can't not say something

54:40

about it. I can't do nothing.

54:42

And if if it means I

54:45

can't get a job after this,

54:47

that will be very sad. But

54:49

I I don't think that that

54:51

is a. choice that I

54:53

can or should make to do

54:55

nothing or say nothing so that

54:57

I can try and preserve my

54:59

career. If if I have to,

55:01

I'll get another kind of job.

55:03

Yeah, I completely agree. Like, how

55:05

dare I try to protect some,

55:07

you know, nice job that I

55:09

could potentially have in the future

55:11

when there are our friends and.

55:13

and students on campus who are

55:15

running for their lives. You know,

55:17

it just it just is not

55:19

something that's even comparable. And so

55:21

I just kind of feel like,

55:23

you know, it's an argument a

55:25

lot of folks have made that

55:27

if in the future there's a

55:29

job that decides not to hire

55:31

me based off of my advocacy,

55:33

I don't want that job. I

55:35

want a job based off of

55:37

my skills and qualifications and experience,

55:39

not my opinions about a genocide

55:41

that's happening halfway across the world

55:43

that. You know, any person should

55:45

feel strongly against, you know, the

55:47

slaughtering of tens of thousands of

55:49

children and innocent folks. You know,

55:51

if that's an inhibitor of a

55:53

potential job, then... know, that's that's

55:55

not the kind of environment I

55:57

want to work in anyway. And

56:00

that's a really privileged position to

56:02

have. I recognize that. But I

56:04

think it's incredibly crucial to be

56:06

able to couch that issue in

56:08

the broader perspective of not just

56:10

this horrific genocide that's happening, but

56:12

also the future of our democracy

56:14

and how critical it is to

56:16

be someone who is willing to

56:18

take a risk for the future

56:20

of this country and the future

56:22

of our basic civil liberties and

56:24

freedoms. All

56:27

right, gang, that's going to wrap

56:29

things up for us this week. Once

56:31

again, I want to thank our

56:33

guests, Caitlin Liss and Ali Wong of

56:36

Student Workers of Columbia. And I

56:38

want to thank you for listening. And

56:40

I want to thank you for

56:42

caring. We'll see y 'all back here

56:44

next week for another episode of Working

56:46

People. And if you can't wait

56:48

that long, then go explore all the

56:50

great work we're doing at The

56:53

Real News Network, where we do grassroots

56:55

journalism that lifts up the voices

56:57

and stories from the front lines of

56:59

struggle. And we need to hear

57:01

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this by going to therealnews .com forward

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slash donate and becoming a supporter today.

57:14

I promise you, it really makes

57:16

a difference. I'm Maximilian Alvarez. Take care

57:18

of yourselves. Take care of each

57:20

other. Solidarity forever. my

57:30

face you no longer see

57:32

i live on yes i

57:34

live on wherever we go

57:36

we are going to roll

57:38

the union on and some

57:40

i live on yes i

57:42

live on wherever hungry hungry

57:44

are we just as hungry

57:46

as hungry can be yes

57:48

i live on yes i

57:51

live on well mean things

57:53

are happening in this land

57:55

is read a song i

57:57

live on yes Whatever

58:00

the book means things that

58:02

happen in the slanted shreds,

58:04

I live on, yes I

58:06

live on Whatever the

58:08

video tape of me is

58:10

showing, I live on,

58:12

yes I live on If

58:15

I have help to make

58:17

this a better world to

58:19

live in, I live on,

58:21

yes I live on When

58:23

my body is solid and

58:25

your tongue goes green, I

58:27

live on, yes I live

58:29

on When my songs

58:31

and poems are red,

58:34

I live on, yes I live

58:36

on