0:05

Welcome everyone to Working People. A

0:07

podcast about the lives, jobs, dreams,

0:10

and struggles of the working class

0:12

today. Working People is a proud

0:14

member of the Labor Radio Podcast

0:17

Network and is brought to you

0:19

in partnership within these times magazine

0:21

and the Real News Network. This

0:23

show is produced by Jules Taylor

0:26

and made possible by the support

0:28

of listeners like you. My name

0:30

is Maximilian Alvarez and today we

0:32

are taking an urgent look at

0:35

the Trump administration's all-out assault

0:37

on institutions of higher education

0:39

and the people who live,

0:41

learn, and work there. As

0:43

we've been covering here on

0:45

the show and across the

0:47

Real News Network, the Trump

0:49

Musk administration's attacks on workers,

0:51

workers' rights, and on democracy

0:53

as such are, frankly, so

0:55

broad, wide-ranging, and destructive that

0:57

it's hard to really sum

0:59

it all up here. But

1:01

colleges and universities have become

1:04

a... key target of Trump's

1:06

administration and a key battle front

1:08

for enacting his agenda. The world

1:10

of higher ed looks and feels

1:12

a lot different today than it

1:15

did when I was a graduate

1:17

student at the University of Michigan

1:19

and then an editor at the

1:22

Chronicle of Higher Education just a

1:24

few short years ago. International students

1:26

like Mahmoud Khalil at Columbia University

1:29

and Rumeza Ostirk at Tufts are

1:31

being hunted, abducted, and disappeared by

1:33

ICE for speaking out against Israel's

1:35

U.S.-backed genocide of Palestinians. Hundreds

1:38

of international students have had

1:40

their visas and their ability

1:42

to stay in the country

1:45

abruptly revoked. Dozens of investigations

1:47

into different universities have been

1:49

launched by the administration because

1:52

of their diversity equity and

1:54

inclusion programs, their allowance of

1:56

trans athletes to compete in

1:59

college sports. And their tolerance

2:01

of constitutionally protected Palestine's solidarity

2:03

protests, which the administration has

2:06

dangerously deemed anti-Semitic and grounds

2:08

for denial of federal funding.

2:10

And the administration has indeed

2:13

frozen federal funding as a

2:15

means to bend universities to

2:18

Trump's will. So far, Alan

2:20

Blinder reports this week at

2:22

the New York Times, quote,

2:25

seven universities have been singled

2:27

out for punitive funding cuts

2:29

or have been explicitly notified

2:32

that their funding is in

2:34

serious jeopardy. They are Brown

2:36

University, which the Trump administration

2:39

said stood to lose $510

2:41

million, Columbia, which is hoping

2:43

to regain about $400 million

2:46

in canceled grants and contracts

2:48

after it bowed to a

2:50

list of demand. from the

2:53

federal government. Cornell University, the

2:55

target of a cut of

2:58

at least $1 billion, Harvard

3:00

University, which has approximately $9

3:02

billion at stake, Northwestern University,

3:05

which Trump administration officials said

3:07

would be stripped of $790

3:09

million, the University of Pennsylvania,

3:12

which saw $175 million in

3:14

federal funding suspended because of

3:16

its approach to a transgender

3:19

athletes participation in 2022. and

3:21

Princeton University which said quote

3:23

dozens of grants have been

3:26

suspended the White House indicated

3:28

that 210 million dollars was

3:30

at risk end quote. The

3:33

battle on and over our

3:35

institutions of higher education have

3:38

been and will continue to

3:40

be a critical front where

3:42

the future of democracy and

3:45

the Trump administration's agenda will

3:47

be decided. And it will

3:49

be decided not just by

3:52

what Trump does and how

3:54

university administrators and boards of

3:56

regions respond. It will be

3:59

decided by how faculty respond.

4:01

How students and grad students

4:03

respond. Staff, campus communities, and you

4:05

in the public writ large. We're

4:08

going to be covering that fight

4:10

continuously here on working people and

4:12

at the Real News Network in

4:14

the coming months and years. And

4:17

we're taking it head-on in today's

4:19

episode with two guests who are

4:21

on the front lines of that

4:23

fight. I'm honored to have them

4:26

joining us together. Returning to the

4:28

podcast, we've got Todd Wilson who

4:30

currently serves... as President of the

4:33

American Association of University Professors.

4:35

Todd is Associate Professor of

4:37

Journalism and Media Studies at

4:40

Rutgers University, and he's the

4:42

co-director of the Media Inequality

4:45

and Change Center, a collaboration

4:47

between the University of Pennsylvania's

4:50

Annenberg School of Communication and

4:52

Information. We are also joined

4:55

today by Chenjuri Kumanika, assistant

4:57

professor at the Arthur L.

4:59

Carter Journalism Institute at New

5:02

York University, who serves as

5:04

a council member for the

5:06

AAUP. You likely already know

5:08

Chenjuri's voice. I mean, the

5:10

man is a radio and

5:12

podcast legend. He's a Peabody

5:14

award-winning host of Empire City,

5:16

the untold origin of the

5:18

NYPD. He's the co-creator, co-executive

5:20

producer and co-host of... uncivil.

5:22

Gimlet Media's podcast on the

5:24

Civil War and so, so

5:26

much more. Brother Todd, Brother

5:28

Chenge, thank you both so

5:31

much for joining us on the

5:33

show today. I really appreciate it. And

5:35

you know, I want to just dive

5:37

right in and I want to start

5:39

by just asking you both to keep

5:41

pulling on the thread from my introduction

5:43

to the show just now. Like I

5:46

tried to pack in as much information

5:48

as I could, but... Really, this is

5:50

just scratching the surface of things.

5:52

So can you both help our

5:54

listeners better understand the full scope

5:57

of what is actually happening across

5:59

higher? in the United States right

6:01

now. So Todd, let's start with

6:03

you and then Chenjorie, please hop

6:05

in after. You did a pretty

6:08

good job packing in a lot

6:10

of information in the short bit,

6:12

Max. And yeah, it's like

6:14

drinking from a fire hose

6:16

right now. I characterize the

6:18

main attacks as about, like,

6:20

there's about five streams of

6:23

like. main frontal assaults on

6:25

higher ed. One is an

6:27

absolute attempt at the destruction

6:29

of our biomedical research infrastructure

6:31

and then a broader research

6:33

infrastructure from there and national

6:35

endowments of the humanities just

6:37

announced a 70% cancellation of

6:40

all their grants. But the

6:42

biggest... funding agency that's taken

6:44

the biggest hit is the

6:46

NIH, which is the biggest

6:48

biomedical research funding organization in

6:50

the world in the world

6:52

and They, at this point

6:54

in 2024, they had given

6:57

out $6 billion in grants

6:59

to do research on cancer

7:01

and to do research on

7:03

Alzheimer's and strokes and pediatric

7:05

oncology and diabetes and all

7:07

the things we all need.

7:09

So that when we go

7:11

to the doctor, they have

7:14

cutting-edge therapies to save the

7:16

lives of ourselves and our

7:18

parents. Now... That's $6 billion,

7:20

it's $2.7 billion. That's how

7:22

much they've given out in

7:24

2025, less than half. So

7:26

if we project that out,

7:28

the NIH gives out $40

7:31

billion in funding for research

7:33

on issues, biomedical health research,

7:35

we expect something like 20

7:37

billion. So a $20 billion

7:39

cut in research is what

7:41

we're looking at. And again,

7:43

it's primarily targeted at the

7:45

biomedical infrastructure, but this is

7:48

also National Science Foundation grants,

7:50

it's National Endowment of Humanities

7:52

grants, it's all the critical

7:54

things that we need. So

7:56

that's one bucket. A second

7:58

bucket is extreme attacks on

8:00

our students. You flagged it,

8:02

right? Abductions of students. in

8:05

broad daylight. Mahmoud Khalil, who

8:07

you mentioned, I think there's

8:09

about eight or nine students

8:11

now that have been just

8:13

abducted in broad daylight and

8:15

whisked into like an ice

8:17

underground prison system, usually hundreds

8:19

of miles from their home,

8:22

often with no charge, like

8:24

maybe the slightest charge of

8:26

some pro-Palestinian. organizing or protest

8:28

work or even editorial work,

8:30

which is their right of

8:32

freedom of speech, absolute right,

8:34

and getting wist off. But

8:36

those folks who they've abducted

8:38

are just scratching the surface

8:40

over the weekend, over this

8:42

past weekend. It's the number

8:44

of something like 600 visas

8:46

were revoked across the country. We

8:48

think at least a hundred

8:50

of them were college, graduate,

8:52

and undergraduate students. So not all

8:55

that's hitting our colleges and

8:57

universities, it's bigger than that. But

8:59

it's probably the largest sector taking

9:02

this hit. And we're trying to

9:04

figure it out. At Rutgers, my

9:06

home institution, 12, 12 students got

9:08

their visas revoked. And you know.

9:10

There's no the folks who got

9:12

their visas revoked this past weekend.

9:15

They're not on record for anything.

9:17

It's we think it's country of

9:19

origin and connected to the Muslim

9:21

Band 2.0, but we're not even

9:24

sure. So that's a second. So

9:26

and just to be clear about

9:28

these attacks on our students, the

9:30

goal is to outlaw protest, right?

9:33

This is the first step in

9:35

the strategy, right? They're weaponizing anti-Semitism

9:37

to go after pro-Palestinian pro-Palestinian. testers,

9:39

this is a first step. They want

9:42

to see, they're testing the water, and

9:44

they want to see how far they can

9:46

take this. You know, just yesterday they

9:48

floated deporting U.S. citizens, so they're going

9:50

to keep pushing this, and the goal

9:52

is to shut us up. And the

9:54

other things I'll just flag really quickly

9:56

that it should be on folks' radar

9:58

as also happening. As we know, they're

10:00

also attacking. universities for DEAI, related

10:02

grants and programs. And that's

10:05

been a massive attack. It

10:07

was one of the first

10:09

executive orders. So for instance,

10:11

we have a researcher who

10:14

is doing research on the

10:16

diversity of wheat crops, the

10:18

genome and wheat crops. That

10:21

research canceled, because the word

10:23

diversity is in it, and

10:25

they don't want diversity. Any

10:28

sort of DEA. Genome diversity is part

10:30

of DEA now. And it's because of

10:32

the keystone cops, right? And

10:34

they're doing this through keyword

10:36

searches. But it gets more

10:38

serious than that. They're also

10:40

canceling research on infant mortality

10:42

rates, right? We want to

10:44

understand why they're differing infant

10:46

mortality rates in urban or

10:48

suburban or rural settings in

10:50

black communities and white communities

10:52

and Latin X communities. They

10:54

won't allow that research anymore.

10:56

Or literacy rates. They don't

10:58

allow. differing literacy rates in

11:00

urban suburban rural communities because

11:02

that's diversity research. So there's DEI

11:04

attacks and then the last attack

11:07

off flag in Al-Chenjorie come in

11:09

is that the attack on our

11:11

institutions are at large, right? And

11:14

that's the stuff that we're seeing

11:16

at Columbia and we're seeing at

11:19

all these other universities that you

11:21

laid out. It's not simply to

11:23

weaponize anti-Semitism. to threaten cuts in

11:26

the biomedical research and threaten and

11:28

weaponize by anti-Semitism, it's

11:30

bigger than that. They want to be

11:32

able to control these institutions, right? And

11:35

the first step is Columbia Bowing, right?

11:37

And so now they expect these next

11:39

six to bow and on and on

11:41

from there. And the goal is for

11:43

them to come in and tell us

11:46

what we can research, what we can

11:48

teach, what our students can say and

11:50

learn. So it's a real attempt at

11:52

massive control. And again, they're looking at

11:55

hungry. in Europe and they're getting much

11:57

of their like strategy here. So those

11:59

are four. major buckets of the tax

12:01

going on. I'm sorry, get in

12:03

there, Ginger. First of all, I

12:05

think you laid it out real

12:07

well. And also, I'll just say,

12:09

much respect to you, Max, to

12:11

working people, pot, I've been a

12:14

long-time fan, real excited to be

12:16

here. So I just want to

12:18

step back a little bit and

12:20

talk about, and we have to

12:22

really look at why this is

12:24

happening. And if you look at

12:26

these cuts, it points to, you

12:28

know, a little bit about why

12:30

they're doing this, right. You know,

12:32

they're lying about what higher education

12:34

is. And I think that's really

12:36

important, right? You know, they want

12:38

to cast higher education as a

12:40

place that is only for a

12:42

certain kind of elites. But that's

12:44

not true. Higher education is where

12:46

so many families in America, across

12:48

America, different communities. you know, not

12:50

just, you know, in rural community

12:52

cities where people are sending their

12:54

kids because they want to have

12:56

a fair shot, whether people, family

12:58

members, because they want to have

13:01

a fair shot, right? So that's

13:03

one component. They also want to

13:05

actually restrict higher education. to maybe

13:07

like people just imagine a certain

13:09

kind of classes that they think

13:11

don't matter but we have to

13:13

understand is higher education is a

13:15

lot of things higher education are

13:17

health care facilities right not just

13:19

places where health research is being

13:21

done but also where people health

13:23

workers are working in places where

13:25

people you know are nurses doctors

13:27

you know people who are nurses

13:29

aides and doctorates all those kinds

13:31

of part of higher education and

13:33

you know in some communities those

13:35

are like the only health care

13:37

facilities right and they reach out

13:39

into the community. You know universities

13:41

are and like I said speaking

13:43

of labor universities are places where

13:45

people of all kinds of different

13:48

folks work right they want you

13:50

to sort of think about this

13:52

caricature of the woke student and

13:54

then like the woke out of

13:56

touch elite professor. But of course

13:58

a lot of people working in

14:00

universities are contingent fact. people who

14:02

are teaching an incredible load and

14:04

do not have the kind of

14:06

job security that we would like

14:08

them to have. You have staff,

14:10

you have people who are, you

14:12

know, there's food facilities, cafeteria workers,

14:14

right? So, you know, in many

14:16

places, universities are, public universities are

14:18

huge employer for the state, a

14:20

huge amount of that is happening,

14:22

right? So they are really central and

14:24

this is not to say at

14:26

all that higher education doesn't have

14:28

problems. But I think like with

14:30

everything with this administration, you know,

14:33

if you look at the AUP

14:35

and some of the correlation, incredible

14:37

exciting coalitions we've been building around

14:39

labor and higher education, we were

14:41

already trying to address some of

14:43

those, some of these changes that

14:45

these sort of outside agitators would

14:47

like to do to control our

14:49

institutions and make them places. In

14:51

some cases, with some cases with

14:53

administrators being complicit with that, right? So

14:55

that's just one thing. But I want

14:57

to say that. They're lying about what

14:59

it is, right? But it's also

15:02

like, they're lying, you know, when

15:04

you look at what they're attacking,

15:06

right? So for example, if you

15:08

look at these cuts to the

15:10

NIH, right, it's not, this is

15:12

not like some kind of austerity

15:14

where they're doing this because they

15:17

want to help taxpayers. This is

15:19

ideological, right? They want to replace

15:21

public science with corporate science, right?

15:23

And they want to defund fields

15:25

that they can't control, right? Especially.

15:27

research, things like gun violence, climate health,

15:30

mental health. I mean, look at these

15:32

cuts that happen yesterday. When you, you

15:34

know, I think like Cornell and Northwestern

15:36

are not verifying everything. They're still trying

15:39

to figure out what's going on in

15:41

this cuts that happen. But you know,

15:43

you just look at it and go,

15:45

some of the stuff that's being cut

15:48

is cancer research, right? I mean, like

15:50

they receive stop work orders to stop

15:52

cancer research. So when we say these

15:54

cuts kill. It's serious it's not hyperbole right

15:57

and I think that that's really important

15:59

for folks to understand and just one

16:01

other thing I'll say is but not only

16:03

in the STEM fields right why

16:05

are they so obsessed with for

16:07

example gender and queer studies in

16:09

the humanities partially because they understand

16:11

that when people study those fields

16:14

they expose how gender gets used

16:16

as a political category to maintain

16:18

you know state control you know

16:20

using sexuality and kinship and labor

16:22

they understand that in the humanities

16:24

the research around race around the

16:27

history of America they understand that

16:29

like when people understand that when

16:31

people understand history right they like

16:33

oh they then they're less vulnerable to

16:35

what they you know the some of

16:37

the moves that they want to make

16:40

right and the ways that they want

16:42

to um their policies harm people both

16:44

here and abroad And so I just

16:46

think you know disabilities right they don't

16:48

want it really they don't they don't

16:50

they don't they don't they don't want

16:52

people studying disability studies and really understand

16:54

how some of these market logics harm

16:56

you know people who are disabled or

16:58

people who are chronically ill right and

17:00

then what that has to mean for

17:03

health infrastructure because again they want to

17:05

reformulate this society in and according

17:07

to what profits billionaires. So I

17:09

think that when we look at

17:11

these cuts we part of our

17:14

battle is that And I think

17:16

what's happening now in an unfortunate

17:18

way is we're seeing people come

17:21

together around a real understanding of

17:23

why it's important for this research

17:25

to continue, why it's important for

17:27

it to be protected from Elon

17:30

Musk or people like RFK or

17:32

whatever, and what higher education really

17:34

is. even further into your life

17:36

world and your experience of all

17:39

this chaos that's happening in higher

17:41

ed right now at the hands

17:43

of the Trump administration. You know

17:46

we were talking in that first

17:48

section right about the the scope

17:50

of this attack. I want to

17:53

ask if you could tell us

17:55

about like the the experience of

17:57

the attacks like how have you

17:59

both personally been processing this as

18:02

it's been unfolding in your capacities

18:04

as professors, but also as representatives

18:06

of and leaders of the AAUP.

18:08

What are you hearing from your

18:10

colleagues in the faculty? How are

18:12

students responding to this and other

18:14

members of the community? Well, I

18:16

guess I'll jump in. There's so

18:18

much, one thing I'll say is

18:20

that, you know, There are, you

18:22

know, Todd and a number of

18:24

other leaders in organizations like Higher

18:26

Ed Labor United, some people in

18:28

the AUP who were not necessarily

18:30

positioned in the leadership in the

18:32

way that we are now, but

18:35

and then and other folks who

18:37

are working in a coalition which

18:39

we now have called Labor for

18:41

Higher Education. So many people and

18:43

people at different AUP locals, you

18:45

know, were already in a fight,

18:47

right, about the direction higher education

18:49

is going in. You know, I

18:51

mean, I, you know, as someone

18:53

who just kind of came into

18:55

the academy, you know, around two,

18:57

I mean, as a, as a,

18:59

as a, as a professor, I

19:01

started my first appointment around 2013,

19:03

what I saw was, you know,

19:05

I worked at universities, you know,

19:07

they were like, you know they

19:10

were living in fear because the

19:12

way the contract structure had been

19:14

set up you know they they

19:16

kind of had to beg for

19:18

their jobs every year they didn't

19:20

have protections they didn't have the

19:22

benefits they needed and you know

19:24

in the southern states they really

19:26

had real obstacles to sort of

19:28

really organizing around collective bargaining so

19:30

I saw what that meant for

19:32

people though. I saw what that

19:34

meant, for example, what like the

19:36

custodial workers in the university, right?

19:38

They didn't have a place they

19:40

could really go to appeal and

19:43

push back on things that the

19:45

administration might be doing with them,

19:47

right? And then I moved through

19:49

different to different institutions. I was

19:51

at... for full disclosure briefly and

19:53

I saw the kind of the

19:55

opposite of like you know what

19:57

it means when you have a

19:59

wall-to-wall you know union and what

20:01

it means actually to go through

20:03

those struggles and all those other

20:05

kinds of things so I just

20:07

want to say that it was

20:09

really interesting that so many of

20:11

us were kind of in this

20:13

battle I was I was still

20:15

kind of learning and getting involved

20:18

with it when these cuts hit

20:20

what you saw what you saw

20:22

was everything that we had already

20:24

been talking about just kind of

20:26

like escalate to a whole new level

20:28

and then with these new pieces involved

20:30

and for me it looks like talking

20:32

to colleagues who are doing you know

20:35

like HIV research or cancer research right

20:37

I mean like seeing them at an

20:39

informal event and they're just like they're

20:41

just almost like in tears like

20:43

can't because their whole research infrastructure they

20:46

have to now figure out if they're

20:48

gonna fire people there's there's a diverse

20:50

array of postdoc students who are like

20:53

who's who's not only their education but

20:55

their jobs are in flux they're thinking

20:57

about the people that they serve and

20:59

they're just like in a panic state

21:02

right and then I'm seeing you know

21:04

I'm seeing people who put, you know,

21:06

it's not easy to get an NEH

21:08

grant or an NIH grant. You put

21:10

a lot of work into doing that,

21:13

and the network kind of sustains both

21:15

the communities and, you know, some of

21:17

those institutions, and I'm just seeing people,

21:19

you know, you know, some of these

21:21

grants, for example, are grants that function

21:24

at multiple institutions. You know what I'm

21:26

saying? So like, you know, they kind

21:28

of helped to really create an infrastructure

21:30

for people to do powerful, important research.

21:32

A lot of research, by the way,

21:35

and this is I think also if

21:37

you look at, you know, is one

21:39

way people tend to think about a

21:42

place like Cornell, right? But you got

21:44

to understand, some of that research was

21:46

like in innovation. Some of it was

21:49

even in like national security stuff, you

21:51

know, like, so that's the kind of

21:53

stuff that I was seeing. I do,

21:55

scrambling, panicking, and the idea that the

21:58

Trump administration is doing this to somehow

22:00

make America more competitive to protect

22:02

working class vulnerable people right is

22:04

like absurd right and so and then

22:06

you know to talk about the

22:08

the DEA stuff that was coming

22:11

down I mean we're we're kind of

22:13

in the discussion now about the

22:15

cuts I would say you know I

22:17

mean it's it's just fascinating and

22:19

very clarifying to watch these folks

22:21

try to just roll back, you know,

22:24

a hundred years of civil rights

22:26

progress, right, in the most flagrant and

22:28

obvious ways. Like, it's not, like,

22:30

there's no way I can say

22:32

it. You know, as a journalist, your

22:34

job usually is to try to

22:36

translate something that's not quite clear. This

22:39

is crystal clear. People see it.

22:41

They see what you're not allowed to

22:43

talk about. They see who's getting

22:45

fired, who's, you know. And then

22:47

the final thing I'll say is that

22:49

when it comes to the issue

22:51

of, you know, sort of the free

22:54

right to protest. I mean, students

22:56

who stood up on the issue

22:58

of Palestine, I mean, you know, I've,

23:00

you know, I've been in meetings

23:02

with colleagues who are talking about students

23:04

and colleagues hiding in their apartment.

23:06

People are being advised by their

23:08

lawyers to hide in their, to hide

23:11

in their apartment because they're not

23:13

sure what's going to happen if they

23:15

come out. If there's, you know,

23:17

every time, you know, on the

23:19

street, I'm, you know, I'm at NYU,

23:21

but anytime, like, there's those ice

23:23

vehicles or certain kinds of police vehicles

23:26

pull up, there's like, you just

23:28

see a wave of terror go

23:30

across the company because they're snatching people

23:32

off the street. And so it's,

23:34

you know, to sort of try to

23:37

function in the every day in

23:39

that kind of context and do

23:41

the work that we want to do.

23:43

As a faculty member, I want

23:45

to tell my colleagues and my students

23:47

that it's going to be okay.

23:49

But the only way that we

23:51

can actually make it okay is to

23:54

really organize. And that's, that's, that's

23:56

kind of, it's good because we are

23:58

organizing, but it's horrifying. It just

24:00

needs to be said here, which

24:02

is the 60 to 70 years of

24:04

divestment from higher end and

24:07

the fascist threats to higher

24:09

end in this moment are

24:12

deeply entangled, right? And that's

24:14

something that needs to be

24:16

clearly understood and discussed more.

24:19

So divestment started at the

24:21

moment when schools like the

24:24

University of California system and

24:26

CUNY were free. in the 70s,

24:28

in the 60s and to the

24:30

early 70s, and people of color

24:32

were getting access to free higher

24:34

ed, right? For the first time,

24:36

or a highly subsidized higher ed,

24:38

for the first time in this

24:40

country's history. And in the same

24:42

moment, those same universities around the

24:44

country were the backbone of the

24:46

60s in the protests, right? Whether

24:49

it's the protest against Vietnam or

24:51

for the civil rights movement, Black

24:53

Panther Party, each one of these

24:55

had... the Berkeley Free Speech Movement

24:57

was deeply like universities were

24:59

critical to them. And so

25:01

at first it was a

25:04

racialized and political attack on

25:06

our universities, right? That started

25:08

in the 60s and 70s.

25:10

Reagan was governor of California

25:13

and he said quite directly we

25:15

can't let the working class

25:17

get educated for free. That was

25:20

said, and that led to divestment

25:22

from our institutions, first in California.

25:24

You know, again, Reagan was like,

25:26

I got, we got to do

25:28

something about those radicals, radical hippies

25:31

in Berkeley. And so they divested

25:33

and they forced students to start

25:35

paying for their higher ed. So

25:37

that happened. And lo and behold,

25:39

the right wing attack on higher

25:42

ed led to a full scale

25:44

like neoliberal corporate kind of ideology

25:46

within higher ed, where we, our

25:48

institutions became more more more dependent

25:50

on a corporate logic, a neoliberal

25:53

logic to run themselves, which meant.

25:55

10 drives point, more contingent faculty,

25:57

higher tuition rates, higher and higher

25:59

and higher. tuition rates, two trillion

26:02

student debt, bureaucrats running our

26:04

institutions, and importantly mission drift.

26:06

They don't remember what the

26:08

institution is for because they're

26:10

so tied to corporate America

26:13

ideology, right? And so they're

26:15

no longer these institutions, the

26:17

bedrock of a public system,

26:19

a common good system. And

26:22

so fast forward to the

26:24

fascist attacks on our institution,

26:26

which we're outlining right now.

26:28

They had already hollowed out the core,

26:30

right? They had already hollowed out the

26:33

core. And that's why Columbia bows

26:35

in me in one second flat.

26:37

That's why our presidents go down

26:39

to Washington, D.C. when they're called

26:42

by the Education Workforce Committee, and

26:44

they cannot respond with a clear

26:46

vision of what hire it is

26:48

about, and they get end run

26:51

by right-wing ideologues in the Senate

26:53

and in Congress. And so it's

26:55

really important to just flag that

26:57

there is a... deeply entwined relationship

27:00

between fascism, right-wing ideology, authoritarianism, and

27:02

neoliberalism, which isn't really well talked

27:04

about, which is what has put

27:06

us in this situation. I'm sorry,

27:08

I just want to go into

27:10

that. It's got to be flagged.

27:13

Now, to your question, it's like

27:15

I have never seen a climate of

27:17

fear like this in my life anywhere,

27:19

anywhere in my experience. We're getting hundreds

27:22

of emails every single day, from

27:24

faculty, from staff, from students, you

27:26

know. What I what I need

27:28

a safe place to say to

27:30

genderized point. I need a safe

27:32

safe place to stay. That's. On

27:34

half of our discussions right now

27:36

is where people need safe places

27:39

to stay. I don't know if

27:41

my research project is going to

27:43

be cut. I'm not going to

27:45

get tenure. I'm going to have

27:47

to change careers because a loss

27:49

of funding. I'm going to be

27:51

set home and I'm not going

27:53

to be able to come back

27:55

and finish my degree. These are

27:57

the kind of discussions we're having.

28:00

And it's not like once

28:02

in a while, it's every

28:04

single day multiple times a

28:06

day. The fear is palpable

28:08

and it's purposeful. It's purposeful,

28:10

right? They're trying to destabilize

28:12

us. They're trying to make

28:15

us fearful and they're trying

28:17

to get us all to

28:19

bow down to... what is a

28:22

fascist threat to our institutions. And

28:24

so, I mean, that's the situation

28:26

we're in, but I'm seeing something

28:28

else too. And this is what

28:31

gives me a lot of hope,

28:33

is that fear is turning into

28:35

anger, and that anger is turning

28:37

into action. And we need more

28:40

of that. And we need the

28:42

people who are the least vulnerable,

28:45

US-born citizens, people with tenure. to

28:47

stand up and step into this

28:49

battle full-throated, not only for ourselves,

28:51

but for all of us, for

28:54

higher education, for democracy, but also

28:56

for the vulnerable students who dare

28:58

to speak out for a free

29:00

Palestine and now are getting dragged

29:03

away in handcuffs by ICE agents,

29:05

right? It's on us to do

29:07

that and continue building that power.

29:09

You know, guys, we were just

29:12

talking about how the sort of

29:14

long path to... turning universities

29:16

into their kind of

29:18

contemporary neoliberal, corporate-tized versions

29:21

of themselves. Like that

29:23

all predated these attacks,

29:25

and it has, as

29:28

you both pointed out,

29:30

made institutions of higher

29:32

ed, especially vulnerable to

29:35

these sorts of attacks

29:37

from the Trump administration.

29:39

I wanted to kind of just tug

29:42

on that threat a bit more by

29:44

asking about the sort of the workforce

29:46

and what the campus community looks like

29:49

after decades of neoliberal reforms. You know,

29:51

like because this was something that that

29:53

I dealt with as you know a

29:56

graduate student and political organizer at the

29:58

University of Michigan during the first Trump

30:01

administration. We're trying to

30:03

rally members of the

30:05

campus community. And in so

30:08

doing, you know, had to come

30:10

up against the fact that, you

30:12

know, you have students who, unlike

30:14

the student activists of the 1960s,

30:16

were now having to make the

30:18

calculation of whether or not they

30:21

could afford to get suspended or

30:23

even like miss a class because

30:25

they are paying, you know, tens

30:27

of thousands of dollars for this

30:29

tuition. So that right there is

30:32

already a complicating factor in the

30:34

political minds of people on campus

30:36

especially. students. But you also

30:38

have, you know, Chenjuri mentioned

30:40

like the... The ways that like

30:42

faculty in higher ed over

30:45

the past 40 years, we

30:47

used to have around 75%

30:49

of the faculty be tenured

30:51

or tenure track and only

30:53

25% being non-tenured track in

30:56

quote-unquote contingent faculty, adjuncts, lectures,

30:58

so on and so forth.

31:00

That ratio is completely flipped.

31:02

And you know, the vast

31:04

bulk of the teaching workforce

31:07

in higher ed is made

31:09

up of so-called contingent. faculty

31:11

and that like puts a

31:13

lot more pressure on those

31:16

faculty members to get to

31:18

not get involved in political

31:20

activity for fear that like

31:23

their paychecks and livelihoods and

31:25

professional reputations will be tarnished and

31:27

you know they'll be out of

31:29

a job. Like so these are

31:32

sort of just some of the

31:34

realities that one has to deal

31:36

with trying to organize on a

31:39

campus in the 21st century. I

31:41

wanted to ask if you could

31:43

just, for folks listening, like, talk

31:46

about that more and like, what

31:48

it looks like from the faculty

31:50

side, right? Like, so as you

31:52

all on your campuses are trying

31:55

to respond to this moment,

31:57

what role is the AAUP playing

31:59

in? for folks listening could you

32:01

just say like what the AUP

32:03

is but also like what the

32:06

differences between say like a tenured

32:08

professor and an adjunct professor you

32:10

know and and their involvement in

32:12

this fight right now. So I'll

32:14

just lay out what the AUP

32:16

is a real brief so AUP

32:18

is over a hundred years old

32:20

John Dewey one of the great

32:22

US scholars was one of the

32:25

founders of it. And when it

32:27

was first, and this is why

32:29

it's a complicated organization, when it

32:31

was first established, it was

32:33

a professional association for faculty.

32:35

And it probably was like

32:38

that for its first 50

32:40

years. But in 1970, or

32:42

about that time, it also

32:44

started unionizing and building collective

32:46

bargaining units. And And so

32:48

it was a quiet, it's

32:51

been a layered history of

32:53

first a professional association layered

32:55

on top of that, a

32:57

union, a national union for

32:59

faculty in particular. And so

33:01

today it is both of those

33:04

things, but from my vantage as

33:06

the president who comes out of

33:08

a strong. union at Rutgers, I

33:10

think in this moment in time it

33:12

needs to act less like a professional

33:14

association and more like a union. It

33:17

needs to build power, it needs to

33:19

organize, and it needs to fight. Fight

33:21

not only up against the threats we

33:23

face right now at the Trump administration,

33:25

but also fight to reimagine what higher

33:27

education is for and about, which I'd

33:29

love to get to, but I'll say

33:32

one other thing about this and then

33:34

quickly talk about faculty and then kick

33:36

it to Chen dry, which

33:38

is we have 500 across

33:40

this country on every type

33:42

of university and community colleges,

33:44

two-year institutions, at four-year publics,

33:46

four-year privates, in Ivy League

33:48

institutions, every type of institution.

33:50

Out of those 500, about

33:52

400 of our chapters are

33:54

called advocacy chapters. They don't

33:56

have collective bargaining rights, and

33:58

about 100. are unions. And

34:00

an important thing for your listeners

34:03

to know is private in private

34:05

universities, faculty, tenured faculty, do not

34:07

have the right to unionize. But

34:10

in public universities, they do. So

34:12

it's a strange bifurcation, right? And

34:14

so there are a few places

34:17

where faculty have unions in private

34:19

institutions, but almost the entirety of

34:21

tenure stream faculty that are unionized

34:23

are unionized in our public institutions.

34:26

And so I'll just say one

34:28

other thing for folks to know,

34:30

which is, and unfortunately AUP used

34:33

to primarily cater to tenure stream

34:35

faculty. our leadership, we do not

34:37

believe in that. We believe in

34:40

everyone fights together, wall to wall,

34:42

coast to coast. And so we're

34:44

really fighting to reframe that. So

34:47

that, and it's not just about

34:49

faculty, we need to build with

34:51

faculty, we need to build with

34:53

faculty, we need to build with

34:56

our postdocs, our grad workers, we

34:58

need to build with our undergrads,

35:00

we need to build with our

35:03

custodial staff, professional staff, tech, across

35:05

the board, our medical workers, that's

35:07

the only way we build the

35:10

power necessary to power necessary to

35:12

fight back. The professor, the faculty

35:14

in this country, you flagged it

35:16

and it's important to know. It

35:19

is not what they say it

35:21

is. The majority, at least the

35:23

plurality of faculty, are contingent. Most

35:26

of them are adjunct faculty, which

35:28

means part-time, and most of them

35:30

are applying for their job semester

35:33

after semester. every semester with no

35:35

benefits, no benefits, zero benefits. And

35:37

so we have adjunct faculty that

35:39

are teaching six classes in a

35:42

semester at six different institutions up

35:44

and down the eastern seaboard, right?

35:46

So the teacher is one day

35:49

in a school in upstate New

35:51

York and the next day teaching

35:53

in Philadelphia. That's the situation and

35:56

they're lucky to scrape by with.

35:58

60 grand a year and no

36:00

benefits. So the story they tell

36:02

about what the professor it is

36:05

and the reality of the professor

36:07

it couldn't be more different. And it's

36:09

important to understand that when we

36:11

think about our institutions today, but

36:14

I'll let Chenier, I get in

36:16

there and talk a little bit

36:18

more about that. Yeah, I, you know, I mean, I

36:20

just think, I want to go back to

36:22

something Todd says, we have to, you know,

36:24

I can't help but we do make this

36:27

a little historical, you know, you know, you

36:29

know, This is not actually not unprecedented

36:31

and it's really important for people to

36:33

understand that this is part of a

36:36

historical trajectory that has to do with

36:38

neoliberalism. You know, I was reading recently

36:40

and talking actually with Ryan Leibenthau, incredible

36:43

book called Burdened, you know, one of

36:45

the things that lays out is that

36:47

in 1979, you know, some conservatives, you

36:50

know, got together at the Heritage Foundation

36:52

and were like, we're like, we're going

36:54

to start to lay out a plan,

36:57

right? called a series, would be ultimately

36:59

became a series of publications called Mandate

37:01

for Leadership. They launched the first one

37:04

in 1980. And you know, that did

37:06

a lot of things. Mandate for leadership

37:08

was broad. It didn't just focus

37:10

on higher education, but actually, the

37:12

first thing you can understand is

37:14

Project 2025 was a part in

37:17

that series, right? So people talk

37:19

about Project 25, like, like, it

37:21

came out of nowhere. No, it

37:23

was a part of things that

37:25

started. And it's not like they

37:27

never had a chance to implement

37:29

it. The things, the sort of

37:31

attacks, cuts, similar types of things

37:33

that were implemented, that were sort

37:35

of planned out in this kind

37:38

of early 80s version of

37:40

the project 2025, were actually

37:42

implemented on the Reagan administration.

37:44

Now, one of the many

37:46

things that did was it

37:48

really gutted federal support

37:51

for higher education. including

37:53

things like student loans, right? And

37:55

actually transformed a lot of, I

37:57

mean, I would say including student

37:59

support. because one of the things

38:01

that happened during that period was that

38:04

a lot of the federal grants, I

38:06

think in the early, like in the,

38:08

if you would have looked going back

38:11

to like the 40s, only like 20%

38:13

of the federal money that came in

38:15

was targeted toward student loan, toward a

38:18

loan structure where people would have to

38:20

repay it, right? But. That was just

38:22

one of many ways in which you

38:25

started to see this divestment, right, of

38:27

states, of the federal government, from public

38:29

education support. And so yes, to your

38:32

point, that has meant that all these

38:34

people, you know, that has meant that

38:36

our faculty, so many of the faculty

38:39

are insecure. And I want to be

38:41

clear, the reason part of why I

38:43

bring that up is that they were

38:46

very intentional about the idea that people

38:48

who are insecure are going to be

38:50

less political. People who are in debt

38:53

are going to be less political. People

38:55

who are in debt are going to

38:57

be less political. They're going to not

39:00

have, they're not going to be sure,

39:02

and they're not going to be sure,

39:04

and they're not going to be sure.

39:07

For this reason? This is one of

39:09

the ways I just want to be

39:11

clear that these attacks don't just touch

39:14

people currently in the academy. They touch,

39:16

you know, both the cuts to funding.

39:18

I mean, I'm hearing from parents who

39:21

are unsure what disciplines their folks should

39:23

go into. So they're actually trying to

39:25

shape it where at a time when

39:28

we need massive amount of doctors, we

39:30

have emerging health threats that are happening.

39:32

People are like, I don't know if

39:35

I want to, you know, go be

39:37

a doctor because I'm seeing the funding

39:39

being cut at the elite places. where

39:42

I would have done that. So it

39:44

affects things that level, and then the

39:46

funding available affects families. We have to

39:49

say, am I going to be able

39:51

to get that support I need, right?

39:53

So how do we fight? So that's

39:56

a more and more people are being

39:58

drawn into this. fight in this way.

40:00

You're seeing all these people being attacked

40:03

and in a way they are kind

40:05

of taking a step toward building a

40:07

coalition for us because I think

40:10

they're over I think they're overreaching

40:12

when that when you hear about

40:15

all these people being affected all

40:17

these people feeling insecure right

40:19

that's for me that's the coalition that

40:21

we want to organize. Now on the

40:24

note of organizing let me say a

40:26

few things right higher education is like

40:28

any other kind of workplace. You have

40:30

some people who are very engaged, who've

40:32

been pulling their weight, who've been leading

40:34

the fight, and you have some people

40:37

who maybe are just focused on their

40:39

jobs and haven't yet seen themselves as

40:41

organizers, right? But I would say in

40:43

this situation, what we're trying to do

40:45

across workplaces, including in what our organizations

40:47

are doing, is inviting people in and

40:50

saying, hey, see how these battles that

40:52

you're fighting at an individual level, at

40:54

a department level, you know what I

40:56

mean? whether you're a parent, whether you're

40:58

a community member who doesn't want to

41:01

see that medical research cut, see how

41:03

this is part of a larger fight.

41:05

And where I think higher education, interestingly,

41:07

is in a place to lead, is

41:10

that the way, you know, I've been learning

41:12

from leaders like Todd, leaders from Labor

41:14

for Higher Ed, Hilo, even leaders at

41:16

AFT, right? People who have a long

41:18

history of organizing. Labor has a set

41:20

of strategies that we can use that

41:22

is not just the same as people

41:24

coming out into the street. I was

41:27

excited to see people at our days

41:29

of action all over the country. I

41:31

was excited to see people at the

41:33

hands-off protests, hundreds of thousands of people

41:35

in the street, but coming out into

41:37

the street is not enough. We need

41:39

a repertoire of strategies which include things

41:41

that can create real leverage, things people

41:44

cannot ignore. And so in a way,

41:46

what the AUP is leading is we're

41:48

actually showing people that strategies. We have

41:51

a legal strategy, incredible legal counsel has

41:53

been rolling out lawsuits that are moving

41:55

through the system, you know, we hope

41:57

we know that the legal strategy by

42:00

itself is not going to be the

42:02

thing that does it but it buys

42:04

us time it slows things down and

42:07

it shows people that we know how

42:09

to throw a punch and at the

42:11

same time we're we're building the power

42:14

that we need to take real labor

42:16

action we're doing education and teachings right

42:18

so in that way what I've seen

42:21

is that You know, there's times when

42:23

people don't necessarily know really what I

42:25

do as a professor or they're like,

42:28

oh, you're often a professor in the

42:30

books. Now I'm seeing people who are

42:32

outside of the academy saying we love

42:35

the way that higher education is leading

42:37

at a time when folks don't know

42:39

what to do and maybe they don't

42:42

know what to do beyond just simply

42:44

coming out into the street, which again,

42:46

I encourage you ain't going to hear

42:48

me be one of these people talking

42:51

about people talking about people, Honestly, to

42:53

think like an organizer, not like, I'm

42:55

just going to say it, not like

42:58

a social media influencer. Social media influencers

43:00

build currency because you just point out

43:02

you dunk on people. Look, if there's

43:05

somebody who voted for Trump and they

43:07

see it's wrong now and they're like,

43:09

I want to get involved in changing

43:12

it because I don't like what I'm

43:14

seeing, I want to welcome that person

43:16

in. I'm not here to dunk on

43:19

you. I don't get nothing but dunking

43:21

on you on clicks and likes. But

43:23

if you join our coalition and become

43:26

a move to your people, we get

43:28

stronger and we can fight this. And

43:30

that's what we're trying to show people.

43:33

Our version of that with the way.

43:35

to me to feel like there's something

43:37

we can do. You know, Todd, Jenge,

43:40

I have so much more I want

43:42

to talk to you about, but I

43:44

know we only have a few more

43:47

minutes here before we have to wrap

43:49

up. And so I want to make

43:51

them count. I wanted to, in this

43:54

last 10 minutes or so, focus in

43:56

on three key questions. One, like, if

43:58

the Trump administration, right, is not stopped.

44:01

thwarted, frustrated in its efforts to remake

44:03

higher education in this country? What is

44:05

the end game there? What is, what

44:07

is, what are our colleges and universities

44:10

and our higher ed system going to

44:12

look like if they get what they

44:14

want? The next question is, and then

44:17

on top of that, you know, like

44:19

the situation that people are in is.

44:21

needing to defend institutions that already had

44:24

deep problems with them as we've been

44:26

talking about here. And you can't just

44:28

galvanize people by saying we got

44:30

to defend the norms and institutions

44:33

that were already in place. That's

44:35

the same university system that saddled,

44:37

you know, people like me with

44:39

hundreds of thousands of dollars of

44:41

debt that, you know, like we're

44:43

not exactly chomping at the bit

44:45

to like save that system in

44:47

its current form. So what is

44:49

the alternative? What is the future

44:51

of higher education that y'all are

44:54

fighting for in rallying people around?

44:56

And then the last question is,

44:58

how do we get there? What

45:00

can folks listening do to be

45:02

part of this and why should

45:05

they get involved before it's too

45:07

late? Look, I mean, I think

45:09

it's really clear what the Trump

45:12

administration's goals are here. And they've

45:14

taken this out of... hundreds

45:16

of years of a hundred years

45:18

of history of authoritarian and fascist

45:21

regimes and one of the key

45:23

sectors that these regimes always target

45:25

is higher education always I think

45:28

most recently it is Victor Orban

45:30

and Hungary but you can peel

45:32

back our history and you'll see

45:35

it's happened before in many different

45:37

moments when when fascist forces are

45:40

on the march and so the

45:42

reason why higher ed is targeted

45:44

is because it's an independent formation

45:47

that offers a counter it can

45:49

offer not always an imperfect but

45:51

can offer a counter political ideology

45:53

and it needs to come under

45:56

control of the state because otherwise

45:58

it is a danger to the

46:00

state's ability to push forward fascism,

46:02

in particular an educated populace, right?

46:05

And so there is a real

46:07

goal here at the biggest level

46:09

to slow down enrollment numbers, take

46:11

over the way higher education is

46:14

done, so that. We are not

46:16

a counter force to fascism in

46:18

this country. And so it is

46:20

a clear path towards that. This

46:23

is not the only institution that

46:25

they're going to target and go

46:27

after, but it's one of the

46:29

key institutions that they will go

46:32

after and target. Labor is another,

46:34

which is why labor unions in

46:36

higher ed are at such a

46:38

critical crosshair. Another is. college students

46:41

and protest from college students who

46:43

have always lied this country have

46:45

always been the mirror of like

46:47

showing a mirror to us and

46:50

showing us what we look like

46:52

and been like a moral a

46:54

moral beacon for us and so

46:56

like there are real aspects of

46:59

higher ed that are really really

47:01

dangerous or threatening to a Trump

47:03

administration and what they want to

47:05

achieve and so If they get

47:08

rid of higher ed or they

47:10

take control of it, I think

47:12

it is a step towards, it's

47:14

not the entirety of, but a

47:17

critical step towards... authoritarianism. We could

47:19

call it fascism, we could call

47:21

it post-fashioned, we could call it

47:23

an illiberal democracy. There's a lot

47:26

of ideas going around about what

47:28

exactly we're in, and I think

47:30

it's a complex merger of a

47:32

host of things, but I think

47:35

wherever they're trying to go, it

47:37

means less voice, less power for

47:39

all working people, and getting rid

47:41

of the higher ed is a

47:44

way to get there. And so

47:46

I'll just say two other things

47:48

in this short time to you,

47:50

which is never been perfect. Let's

47:53

just be clear about some of

47:55

its worst moments in history. Our

47:57

great land grant institutions, which are

47:59

great. One of the great things

48:02

about America, American hire it. system

48:04

which Lincoln dubbed the people's colleges

48:06

or along those lines were all

48:08

based on taking off stolen land

48:11

from indigenous people right that's clear

48:13

that happened right and those same

48:15

indigenous native folks didn't get to

48:17

enjoy and use those universities to

48:20

advance their lives, right? So they

48:22

merely were extractive from the people

48:24

who were here first, right? But

48:26

then also, post-World War II, the

48:29

GI program, black people didn't get

48:31

access to it the same way white

48:33

soldiers coming back did, right? And so...

48:35

always at the heart of this institution

48:38

has been racism and classism and sexism

48:40

has been coded into our higher ed.

48:42

So we should be clear about that

48:45

and we don't want to build a

48:47

new higher ed that replicates those problems.

48:49

We need to reimagine it and But

48:51

we need to reimagine it building off

48:54

what we have now. We can't just

48:56

say tomorrow we want something wholly new.

48:58

We have to take steps. People

49:00

are getting their livelihoods from these

49:03

institutions. They're finding ways to have

49:05

social mobility through these institutions. So

49:07

we need to build through them.

49:10

And what our vision is, is

49:12

a fully funded public higher education

49:14

system, fully funded. Nobody should be

49:17

going to college and coming out

49:19

in debt. Nobody. And there needs

49:21

to be an end to student debt.

49:23

We need to end the debt that

49:25

has already been accrued. That's better for

49:28

all the people who have that

49:30

debt, but it's also better for

49:32

our economy at large. For you,

49:34

Max, we got to get rid

49:36

of your debt, too. And then

49:38

we have to make sure that

49:40

people who work on our campuses

49:42

work with dignity. Right now, that

49:44

is not the case. Too many

49:46

people, as we already discussed, are

49:48

working. across six institutions scraping together

49:50

a living. And we have to

49:52

end that. We have to make

49:54

sure everyone who works can have

49:56

long-term dignified employment. And we have

49:58

to make sure that we've fully

50:00

fund and increase our funding to our

50:02

HBCUs, our minority serving institutions, our tribal

50:04

colleges and universities. And we forgot to

50:07

say this, the attack on the Department

50:09

of Education. defunds those institutions. So that

50:11

also is another line of attack that

50:13

I forgot to mention. So we want

50:15

more funding for those groups and we

50:18

want more funding for science, more funding

50:20

for arts. And so that's the kind

50:22

of higher ed we want to build.

50:24

We want to build that higher ed

50:26

as one which has shared governance so

50:29

that the students. And the faculty and

50:31

the staff of our institutions govern our

50:33

institutions, not business bureaucrats that now control

50:35

them. So that's a vision we want

50:37

to put forward. And the last thing

50:40

I want to say is, we have

50:42

a way to get there, but the

50:44

first step is got to be responding

50:46

to Trump, right? We can't build the

50:49

vision of higher ed that we all

50:51

want without first standing up to fascism.

50:53

And so, Chendry said this, and I,

50:55

my heart sings when he says this,

50:57

because we're on the same page. Protests

51:00

are great. They are not going to

51:02

stop fascism. They will not stop fascism.

51:04

The courts are great. Thank God they've

51:06

done a good job for us so

51:08

far in holding up some of the

51:11

worst aspects of Trump's illegal moves. They

51:13

will not stop fascism. We are going

51:15

to have to scale up our organizing.

51:17

Hirehead is going to have to build

51:20

with other sectors, federal workers, K-12 workers,

51:22

health care workers, immigrant workers, all under

51:24

attack in different ways. and we're going

51:26

to have to figure out the demands

51:28

we need to make and the militancy

51:31

we're going to have to take, the

51:33

militant moves we're going to have to

51:35

take to force them to stop. And

51:37

that's going to mean risk. But there

51:39

is no other way forward. And so

51:42

that's what AUP is committed to. That's

51:44

what labor for higher ed's committed to,

51:46

and that's where we're trying to go.

51:48

And we need other sectors to join

51:51

us to get there. Yeah, I mean,

51:53

Todd really said it. I would just

51:55

add two points to that. I mean,

51:57

you know, when you see, you know,

51:59

what's being cut and what's being... attacked,

52:02

you're getting a glimpse of the future

52:04

of what it is. And you could

52:06

go to places like Hungary, you could

52:08

go to a lot of places where

52:10

these things are a little bit more

52:13

developed and see what this looks like

52:15

there. And I guarantee it's not something

52:17

that we want. But there's two points

52:19

I want to make, which is

52:21

that one of the things about

52:24

worker power, across sectors, is that

52:26

workers, when they're in control. can

52:28

say, this is what we want

52:30

the institutions that we work in

52:33

to do, and this is what

52:35

we don't want them to do.

52:37

Workers can govern the direction of

52:40

institutions. You know, when you see

52:42

Amazon workers and tech workers who

52:44

are stepping up saying we don't

52:47

want to be involved in making,

52:49

you know, technology that's supporting genocide

52:51

or that's just supporting oppression of

52:54

our data extraction here at home,

52:56

like that's worker power. administrator, or

52:58

I would just say sort of like

53:01

billionaire executive power, which is organized around

53:03

a completely different set of priorities, right?

53:05

And the same is true in the

53:07

academy. You know, one of the dangers

53:09

is that if you look at the

53:11

various parts of labor at the university,

53:14

I mean, folks are also saying, this

53:16

is what we want our universities to

53:18

be on the right side of history

53:20

doing powerful, important work. We do not

53:22

want them to be involved in suppression.

53:24

And if you don't like what you

53:27

see a Columbia, where you see them

53:29

bending the knee, and then you see

53:31

them actually becoming complicit in a way

53:33

teaching the Trump administration what they can

53:35

do, what they're allowed to do, that's

53:38

a consequence of not having sufficient work

53:40

or power, right? So that's, and you're

53:42

going to see more of that. So

53:44

you're imagining not just what's going to

53:46

get removed, but now imagine that universities

53:48

are really deployed as an arm of

53:51

fascism, right? And that's in all its

53:53

different formation. So that's one thing that

53:55

I think is at stake. The second

53:57

thing I would really bring up is

53:59

that. Higher education battles are

54:02

so important because Everything

54:04

that we really want

54:06

to try to make this world a

54:08

better place is interwoven with higher education.

54:11

So if we want to defeat the

54:13

urgent threat of climate change, that takes

54:15

research. People who are finding the solutions,

54:17

right? Precisely the kind of research that's

54:20

being taken. So that's not just about

54:22

what's happening at universities. It's about the

54:24

climate stakes for everybody. And most of

54:26

the people that effects are not in

54:29

the university, but the university research and

54:31

making sure you having real research on

54:33

that. is central to that. When it

54:35

talks about, when you talk about health

54:38

care, fighting for a world where we

54:40

do have health care for all and

54:42

understanding what that health care needs to

54:44

look like, the university is crucial for

54:46

that. Todd already mentioned, the NIH was

54:48

responsible for like almost, like I think

54:50

basically all the therapies that came out

54:52

that were, you know, useful like in

54:54

the last decade really, right? So you

54:56

can't talk about health care without talking

54:58

about it. When you talk about. labor

55:00

and this emerging regime where you know

55:02

labor protections and technology trying to understand

55:04

what is this actually going to look

55:06

like what people producing real research like

55:08

our like our colleague you know Vina

55:10

Dubal who's looking at like what actually

55:13

is happening like what actually is happening

55:15

with these algorithms for real right and

55:17

how those algorithms going to affect things

55:19

as these people try to kind of

55:21

like Uberize the entire planet right and

55:23

subject them people and create a situation

55:26

where people don't have benefits and all

55:28

that research has also been done at

55:30

the So working, I just laid out

55:32

three right there, working conditions, health care,

55:34

climate change, and we could go on.

55:36

What about art? What about the

55:39

things that bring us joy

55:41

in life? You know what

55:43

I'm saying? Where people have

55:45

the room outside of the

55:47

corporate factory to actually explore

55:49

and produce wonderful things, art

55:51

and music and culture, all

55:53

those things. So to me,

55:55

what's at stake is literally

55:57

that future? as educate higher

55:59

education workers. up to us to

56:01

make sure that, like as Todd

56:03

is saying, you know, we want

56:06

to fight for the conditions of

56:08

education, that it really is working

56:10

for the common good. But, you

56:12

know, but also we got to

56:15

fight back this, we have to

56:17

fight back this, this monster. And

56:19

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm terrified right

56:22

now. I got to say, it's

56:24

okay to say you're scared. I'm,

56:26

by what I'm seeing, stepping up

56:28

and doing. We have actions on

56:31

April 17th throughout the countries. I

56:33

think over about 100 institutions across

56:35

the country are taking part in

56:38

our April 17th actions. So please

56:40

come out or organize your own

56:42

action. It's being driven by the

56:44

Coalition for Action in Higher Ed,

56:47

which is a lot of amazing

56:49

AEP leaders. We will also be

56:51

engaging in May Day organizing and

56:53

then this summer. We want you to

56:55

come to your AUP chapter, your UAW local,

56:58

your CWA local, your AFT local, your NEA

57:00

local, your SEIU local, whatever it is, whatever,

57:02

however you can plug in and then you

57:04

need to reach out to us. We're going

57:07

to do a summer of training that's going

57:09

to prepare us for what needs to get

57:11

done in the fall and we need every

57:13

single hired worker. And one other thing, if

57:16

you aren't member of AUP, now is the

57:18

time to become a member and join us

57:20

and join us in this fight. You need

57:22

to build a chapter on your campus

57:25

and we will be there with you

57:27

every step of the way. We have

57:29

a campaign called Organize Every Campus and

57:31

we will help you build your campus

57:33

chapter and build your power. So you

57:35

can fight back at the campus level

57:38

while we collectively fight back at the

57:40

state and national level together. So join

57:42

AEP today. If you're already in

57:44

a union, get involved in your union.

57:46

And let's we'll see you on the

57:48

front lines. Front lines. All right, gang,

57:51

that's gonna wrap things up for us

57:53

this week. Once again, I want to

57:55

thank our guests, Professor Todd Wolfson and

57:57

Chenjuri Kumanika of the American Association. of

58:00

university professors and I want to thank

58:02

you all for listening and I want

58:04

to thank you for caring We'll see

58:06

y'all back here next week for another

58:09

episode of Working People. And if you

58:11

cannot wait that long, then please go

58:13

explore all the great work we're doing

58:15

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58:18

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58:39

I promise you

58:41

it really makes

58:43

a difference. I'm

58:46

Maximilian Alvarez,

58:48

take care

58:51

of yourselves,

58:53

take care

58:55

of each

58:58

other, solidarity

59:00

forever. Three

59:15

things are happening in the slang. You