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1:32

I mean, so many young women who went

1:34

into science because of that show. So

1:36

many young women who went to medical

1:38

school because of that show, which was completely

1:41

unintended. Like that wasn't what I thought

1:43

when I was writing about McDreamy and McSteamy

1:45

and all this. Hey

1:49

everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back

1:51

to Rethinking, my podcast on the science

1:53

of what makes us tick with the

1:55

TED Audio Collective. I'm an organizational psychologist,

1:57

and I'm taking you inside the minds

1:59

of fascinating people to explore new

2:01

thoughts and new ways of thinking. My

2:07

guest today is Shonda Rhimes, one of

2:09

the most influential dreamers and doers of

2:11

our time. She's the Golden Globe

2:13

-winning creator, writer, and executive producer behind

2:15

so many of our favorite TV shows.

2:17

from Grey's Anatomy and Scandal to Bridgerton

2:19

and How to Get Away with Murder. Shonda's

2:22

the founder of a hugely

2:24

successful production company, Shondaland. And

2:26

she wrote a best -selling memoir about

2:28

taking risks called Year of Yes. I

2:31

just was a person who always said no if

2:33

I felt like no was the answer. And

2:35

that really threw a lot of people, but

2:37

it also, I gained a lot of respect

2:39

from people because of it as well, that

2:41

I wasn't even sort of looking towards. I

2:44

was thrilled to interview Shonda live

2:46

on stage at Uplift. Better Ups flagship

2:48

summit on leadership, growth, and performance. And

2:51

I'm excited to share that conversation with you today.

3:00

Shonda Rhimes, welcome to Uplift. Thank

3:03

you. Hello, everybody. I

3:06

love the standing ovation before the

3:08

conversation. Does it take the pressure

3:10

off? The pressure's always on. You

3:12

want to deliver. OK,

3:15

so I was trying to think about how

3:17

to describe your impact on the world

3:19

and on culture. And here's what

3:21

I came up with. Tell me if it's right or wrong. I

3:24

think that many of us have our

3:26

greatest daily moments of joy in front

3:28

of a TV screen. And

3:31

you are responsible for more of those moments

3:33

than anyone on Earth alive. And therefore, you

3:35

might be the greatest joy creator on Earth. I

3:43

like that. I've never heard it described that way. When my

3:45

kids are ribbing me, I'm going to be like, I'm

3:47

a joy creator. How

3:51

How would you describe what you do? I

3:53

always say I'm a storyteller. First and

3:55

foremost, that's my job. No

3:57

matter what medium we're talking about, I feel

4:00

like we're sort of fearlessly entertaining through

4:02

storytelling and really celebrating everybody with it.

4:04

Our goal is to just reflect

4:06

life. and to reflect humanity the way

4:08

either we want it to be

4:10

or it should be or it is.

4:12

And so to me, Storyteller is the perfect title. If

4:15

you could go back to your life story, when you were a kid,

4:17

what did you want to be when you grew up? I

4:19

wanted to be Toni Morrison. And

4:22

I'm not joking. I wanted to

4:24

be Toni Morrison. I

4:26

loved her work. I thought being a

4:28

writer sounded amazing. She was a professor at

4:30

Princeton. I was like, that's like the

4:32

perfect life. And then she won the Nobel

4:34

Prize. So it felt like, yeah, I

4:36

want to be Toni Morrison when I grow

4:38

up. You can't be Toni Morrison when

4:40

you grow up because Toni Morrison is already

4:43

Toni Morrison, but it really was my

4:45

aspiration. But I also had all these

4:47

other things that I didn't realize what they added

4:49

up to. I wanted to be a

4:51

lawyer for a long time. I wanted to

4:53

be a doctor for a long time. I wanted

4:55

to be a CIA agent for a long

4:57

time. What I realized is

4:59

I don't actually want to do those things,

5:01

but I want to write about them and pretend

5:03

and live in that world. And that became

5:05

really fun for me once I understood. that

5:07

I didn't have to go to medical school, or I

5:10

didn't have to actually, like, be a spy, that

5:12

I could imagine. That's

5:14

so fascinating, because this is exactly why

5:16

I became an organizational psychologist. I

5:19

thought, I can study all the jobs that

5:21

I think I want to do. I like

5:23

your version better. It's a lot of fun.

5:25

It's a lot of fun. Okay, so you

5:27

figure out that you want to be a

5:29

storyteller. It's hard to imagine, like graduating college

5:31

and saying, okay, I'm going to build Shondaland.

5:34

Did you have that vision at 21 or

5:36

how did it evolve? No, it did

5:38

not work that way at all. I flailed

5:40

for a long time. I worked in

5:42

nonprofit world for a while to sort of

5:44

pay my bills. Then I went to

5:46

film school. And the only

5:48

reason I went to film school was because

5:50

my parents are professors. And I read that it

5:52

was harder to get into USC film school

5:55

than it is to get into Harvard Law School.

5:57

And I thought, If I do that, they

5:59

can't say that I'm not doing something. So that's

6:01

why I went to film school, really, because

6:03

I needed something to do and I liked watching

6:05

TV and movies. It wasn't

6:07

until I got there that I realized how

6:09

comfortable I was there and how much I

6:11

enjoyed what I was learning and I enjoyed

6:13

what I was doing. And then?

6:16

Oh. What happened next? I

6:18

was lucky. Like, I graduated film

6:20

school with an agent. I

6:22

won like a writing contest and they got

6:24

an agent. You don't really generally graduate that

6:26

way. It did not help me in any

6:28

way. Back in the day when people had

6:30

CDs for music, I would sell my CDs

6:33

to buy gas for my car. So

6:35

like it wasn't helping anyway. I had

6:37

a job that I was going to that

6:39

I did not like. Plenty of that

6:41

stuff. But then I wrote a

6:43

script and I said to myself, I'm

6:45

gonna write this movie script. I'm gonna write

6:47

something I just like. And

6:49

if it sells, I'll stay

6:52

in Hollywood. And if it doesn't, I'll go

6:54

to a post -baccalaureate year so that I

6:56

can then go to medical school and

6:58

become a doctor. And I was dead serious.

7:01

And the script sold, luckily. So I

7:03

didn't have to go. And it never

7:05

got made. But in Hollywood, things

7:07

get sold, and then they get sold again,

7:09

and they get sold again. It got sold

7:11

enough that I could survive. And

7:14

then I was hired to

7:16

write Introducing Dorothy Dandridge, which starred

7:18

Halle Berry. And it was

7:20

my first real job in the

7:22

business. Wow. So

7:24

are you saying that McDreamy and

7:26

Meredith Gray, the whole cast,

7:28

hung in the balance of one

7:30

script being sold? Yes, definitely. And

7:33

you would have otherwise gone to med

7:35

school. I was a really nerdy academic

7:37

student who loved being in school. And

7:39

while I didn't love science, I did

7:41

love the idea of helping people and

7:43

being a doctor. Well, I think

7:45

it's safe to say that you've done more

7:47

to inspire people to become doctors. than

7:50

you would have if you had gone to med school. I

7:53

think that, to me, is the most

7:55

exciting piece of a legacy. I mean, so

7:57

many young women who went into science

7:59

because of that show, so many

8:01

young women who went to medical school

8:03

because of that show, which was completely

8:05

unintended. Like, that wasn't what I thought

8:08

when I was writing about McDreamy and

8:10

McSteamy and all this. But in it, you

8:12

know, Christina Yang and Meredith Gray Dr.

8:14

Bailey set this example, I think, that made

8:16

a lot of young women see themselves,

8:18

and that was really exciting. It was such

8:21

a different time then, and we had

8:23

so little representation on TV. Was

8:25

that an uphill battle? What was it like

8:27

to write characters who we weren't used to

8:29

seeing? It wasn't, it wasn't. And

8:31

here's what I mean. There

8:33

hadn't been a show that wasn't

8:35

a sitcom that had two

8:37

characters of color in a room

8:39

discussing something alone without a

8:41

white character. Literally, that

8:43

hadn't happened. There were

8:45

very few shows where there were

8:47

women who had both families and

8:50

jobs, where women were competitive, where

8:52

women slept around. I think it

8:54

was Sex in the City. But

8:56

that was it. And so when

8:58

I wrote that show, which felt to

9:00

me like it was about women my age

9:02

at the time, I remember

9:04

the network saying, like, we're really worried that no

9:06

one's going to want to watch this because that

9:08

woman is not the kind of woman you want

9:10

to be. And I was like, but that's all

9:12

the women I know. Nobody

9:16

came at me because of diversity or

9:18

because of the color of the cast. They

9:20

really didn't. And I don't even think

9:22

it occurred to them that they should. ABC

9:25

was really great about that. But when

9:27

it aired, what I thought was simply a

9:29

show about people turned out to be

9:31

revolutionary. because people of color had

9:33

not been portrayed as people on television. They

9:35

were most likely put on television to

9:37

talk about being a person of color. Like,

9:39

that was generally what happened in a

9:41

show. And I'm not bragging,

9:43

but Grey's Anatomy literally changed the face

9:45

of television. You know, who you see

9:47

on TV. Okay,

9:50

I am bragging a little bit. No,

9:54

no, there's a difference between a brag and

9:56

a fact. Okay,

9:59

so Shonda, this goes to one of

10:01

our major themes of the discussion today, which

10:03

is the idea of reinvention. You have

10:05

reinvented the way that stories are told and

10:07

you've done it repeatedly throughout your career. I

10:10

wonder if you could talk to us about

10:12

some of your early and boldest moves where you

10:14

had to try something that had never been

10:16

attempted and what you learned from that experience. Grey's

10:19

Anatomy is the first television show I'd

10:21

ever written. So, and

10:24

that's really a weird experience to

10:26

write a show and then have it

10:28

like become lightning like that were, you

10:30

know, it's still going. So I was

10:32

in a position where I did not

10:34

often understand what the actual rules were because

10:37

I had never worked in television before.

10:39

So I was making my own rules and

10:41

quite often encountering people who sort of

10:43

like, well, you can't do that that way

10:45

or that doesn't work that way. And

10:47

I always felt like, well, I'm the person

10:49

telling the story. So it has to

10:51

work that way because I'm telling the story.

10:53

Like, how do you know how it

10:55

happens? You didn't write the story. And

10:57

it seems really simple, but what it did in a

10:59

way that I don't know if I was completely aware

11:01

of in the very beginning, but I began to be

11:03

aware of it. I would say no. And

11:06

so many people in that town were

11:08

so desperate for their shot and for

11:10

a job and for an opportunity that

11:12

they would never say no. They'd get

11:14

crazy notes and they'd say yes. They'd

11:16

be told something about who they could...

11:18

be on television or what a story

11:20

could be told or all kinds of

11:23

things. And they'd say, okay, also not

11:25

for nothing, but most showrunners were white

11:27

men. So I would walk

11:29

into a room with like one

11:31

of my writers and they would only

11:33

talk to him because he was

11:35

a white man. And I

11:37

became really good at sort of allowing

11:39

people to make fools of themselves

11:41

without insulting them to sort of make

11:43

the point of A leader comes

11:45

in all kinds of packages. You can't

11:47

say that this is what a

11:49

leader looks like, because the leader's over

11:52

here. What's an example of

11:54

how you would do that? I would always let

11:56

them talk for a while, and I wouldn't say much.

11:58

And then they'd ask a real

12:00

question. And then my writer, who

12:02

knew this was coming, because they're very

12:05

used to it, would say, you shouldn't be

12:07

asking me. You should have been asking

12:09

her over there. And there's a moment of

12:11

realization. for them. And sometimes they

12:13

knew I was the head writer, but they

12:15

assumed that someone was in charge of me. That

12:18

happens to women and people of color

12:20

all the time. Don't gasp. It

12:22

really does. And so

12:24

this idea that I brought someone who

12:26

was in charge of me instead of someone

12:28

to take notes was really annoying to

12:30

me, but I also just always was able

12:32

to clarify that very clearly. I'm

12:35

just imagining the train of thought when

12:37

the realization washes over them. They have to

12:39

grapple with both, am I sexist and

12:41

am I racist all at once? Maybe

12:45

that's true. There were a lot of people

12:47

who didn't grapple. They just felt like they made

12:49

a mistake and didn't even think about what

12:51

it meant. But they never made the mistake again.

12:53

You mentioned saying no when other people said

12:55

yes. You have a complicated relationship with the words

12:57

no and yes. And I want to dig

13:00

into that because I think that both of them

13:02

have been really important in your leadership and

13:04

your career. I agree. Greys had

13:06

been out, and Scandalin had come out, and

13:08

I was pretty successful, and...

13:10

Pretty successful? It

13:12

took a long time for me to actually

13:14

decide that I was successful, a long time. But

13:17

I was pretty successful at that point, and my

13:19

sister was at home with me, and I would

13:21

tell her all the invitations when I got invited

13:23

here, and England wanted me to come and do

13:25

this, and this person wanted me to come do

13:27

this, and Time Magazine, and she goes, are you

13:29

ever going to do any of these things? And

13:32

I looked at her and she was crazy and I was like,

13:34

no. And she said, why not?

13:36

And I had all kinds of excuses, but the reality

13:38

of it was is I was a deep introvert

13:40

and I was afraid. And she

13:42

said to me, you never say yes to anything.

13:45

And that made me embark on a year where

13:47

I decided to say yes to everything that

13:50

scared me. And I ended up writing a book

13:52

about it, but it was. an amazing experience

13:54

because I was a person who was comfortable saying

13:56

no because it meant that I could stay

13:58

home in my pajamas and my cocooned life and

14:00

not have to worry about anything. But

14:02

I said yes to everything. And

14:05

the first thing I said yes to was

14:07

giving a commencement speech in front of 15

14:09

,000 people. And I said yes to going

14:11

on television. I did a guest spot on

14:13

Mindy Kaling's television show. And it went on

14:15

and on. I started saying yes to things

14:17

that I didn't even think I needed to

14:19

say yes to. Things that hadn't even

14:21

occurred to me that they would be in my wheelhouse. And

14:24

it really changed everything for me.

14:26

What I learned most of all is

14:28

that the thing you're afraid of

14:30

doing the thing undoes the fear. It

14:32

truly does. One of those things I said

14:34

yes to was difficult conversations because I used to

14:36

avoid them like the plague. I

14:39

always feel like peace is now on the

14:41

other side of a difficult conversation. So you have

14:43

to say yes to having the difficult conversation no

14:45

matter what that conversation is. if

14:47

it's you're underperforming and this is

14:49

not working for me. If

14:51

it's you're in the wrong business,

14:54

like you shouldn't be doing this job that

14:56

you think you want to do. If

14:58

it's, you know, telling somebody that something doesn't

15:00

work or something is hard or if

15:02

it's me telling some people, I'm not going

15:04

to do this and here's why. It

15:06

was really revolutionary to me to

15:09

do that. When I first saw you

15:11

in person at TED, And

15:13

I think you might have just released your

15:15

book at that point. Yes, I think

15:17

so. And I was so shocked because I

15:19

was coming at this from the backdrop

15:21

of organizational psychology research showing that women face

15:23

way more cultural and organizational pressure to

15:25

say yes than men do. And then when

15:27

they do say yes, it gets taken

15:30

for granted. Like, she's caring. Of course she

15:32

wants to help. And if they say

15:34

no, they get penalized for it. Like, how

15:36

dare she not? And meanwhile, like, men

15:38

get away with saying no. Like, I never would have

15:40

expected him to care. And

15:42

they get celebrated for saying yes,

15:44

because, wow, what a great

15:46

guy. And so I

15:48

guess my starting assumption was, oh, this

15:51

was going to be a book about

15:53

the need to say no. And you

15:55

went the opposite way. There is a

15:57

chapter called, say yes to saying no,

15:59

because really learning when to say no

16:01

and how to say no efficiently, which

16:03

is, I always say the sentences, I'm

16:05

sorry, I can't do that. And you

16:07

never give any other. information. You don't

16:09

have to explain yourself. But the reason

16:11

why I sort of went the other

16:13

way or why my brain went the

16:15

other way, I didn't like claw my

16:17

way to the top. I found myself

16:19

in a position that nobody else had

16:21

been in before. And I

16:23

was protecting my space and my sanity

16:25

a lot of the time by saying

16:28

no, because I was like, I'm doing

16:30

this one thing that I'm terrified to

16:32

do badly, making this show. If I

16:34

mess up, will there ever be anybody

16:36

who looks like me who does it

16:38

again? So I spent time saying no,

16:40

really trying to protect my own peace. I

16:43

didn't really care if other people were

16:45

unhappy that I said no, because it was

16:47

the thing keeping me sane and happy

16:49

and going. So there was

16:51

that. And I do know that most

16:53

women are expected to say yes

16:55

to things. And I think because I

16:57

had been so determinedly saying no. saying

17:00

yes meant something. But also, the book is

17:02

not about saying whether or not you can

17:04

say yes. It's about saying yes to the

17:06

right things and saying no to the right

17:08

things and really defining that for yourself and

17:11

letting go of other people's expectations of what

17:13

that means. You live in a

17:15

world of infinite opportunity. You could literally do anything you

17:17

want. How do you decide what's worth saying yes

17:19

to and what to say no to? Oh, wow. I

17:21

say yes to things that feel exciting

17:23

to me or that I can bring something

17:25

to. If I can bring

17:28

something to the table, then I'm going

17:30

to say yes. If I never

17:32

even imagined doing it before, sometimes

17:34

I'll say yes because you should always do

17:36

the things that freak you out and scare you

17:38

at some point in time. I'm not

17:40

going to jump out of a plane because I'm not

17:42

stupid, but other things. People

17:46

always talk about work -life balance, and I believe

17:48

there's no such thing as work -life balance. But

17:50

I say no to things based on, like,

17:52

my kids and what we're doing at the time.

17:54

What feels important to me at the time,

17:56

too? You can say yes

17:58

to almost anything. if you

18:00

have no fences, that doesn't mean you

18:02

should just run free. It

18:04

means you should figure out what your own

18:07

fences are. You talk about saying yes

18:09

when you have something to add. I wonder

18:11

if it matters that you have something unique

18:13

to add. Oh, I definitely think having something

18:15

unique to add matters. Still, be

18:17

careful who you say yes to because somebody will

18:19

discover that you can do something unique and

18:21

then they will try to make you do it

18:23

again and again and again for them. So

18:25

to me, it's only if I'm contributed to

18:28

something that's sort of unique to my talents,

18:30

but also is something I want to do.

18:32

I never say this is something I just

18:34

don't want to do. That's not

18:36

a way to live your life. Okay,

18:38

so this reminds me of a moment in

18:40

your career when Oprah told you that

18:42

you didn't look like you were having fun.

18:44

Yes. Grey's Anatomy

18:46

had become this enormous hit. And

18:49

the first sign that you're an enormous

18:51

hit is Oprah wants to come and talk

18:53

to you. everybody

18:57

was like insane about the fact that

18:59

she was coming. I went home the

19:01

night before and I came back the

19:03

next day and they had planted like

19:06

4 ,000 roses or tulips so that

19:08

Oprah would see something beautiful when she

19:10

drove in. It was crazy.

19:12

It felt like God might be coming, like

19:14

get together. And

19:16

so she came and I was

19:18

so stressed out by it that I

19:20

remember not a lot of it, but

19:22

she was warm and it was lovely

19:25

and it was this sort of far -ranging

19:27

interview. She and Gail sat across the

19:29

room and I sort of sat in

19:31

a corner sort of answering questions like

19:33

terrified. And we took

19:35

a photo and we did this whole

19:37

thing. And as she was leaving, Oprah

19:39

grabbed my hand and said, you're not

19:41

enjoying any of this. And she was

19:43

right. And it made me feel really

19:46

seen because at that point I was

19:48

so shy that the idea that I

19:50

was doing this and supposed to be

19:52

natural -edited and funny and casual, that wasn't

19:54

even possible. But I also wasn't enjoying

19:56

it because I still wasn't sure that

19:58

the success was going to last. I

20:00

was still operating in a very fearful

20:02

place of, they're going to take this

20:04

away from me any minute if I

20:06

don't protect it. And she

20:08

said, you have to start finding ways to enjoy this.

20:11

And I started to try. How?

20:14

A lot of it was, I never

20:16

even celebrated our successes ever. I never

20:18

went like, oh, we're the number one

20:20

show. I'd edit the episodes, and then

20:22

I wouldn't even like really watch them

20:24

to go like, we made this. And

20:27

so I really started to try to

20:29

enjoy myself more. I started going down to

20:31

the soundstage more to watch people act,

20:33

to sort of see my words coming to

20:35

life, because usually I was like, that's

20:37

not my job. And I just started trying

20:39

to also find moments in life to

20:41

enjoy more. You must have been the

20:43

only person in America not watching. Yeah.

20:47

My daughters have never seen it either, and

20:49

one of them is 22. But

20:51

I get that. I think that's really healthy in a lot

20:53

of ways. It's all your

20:55

mom's feelings about romance and sex and

20:57

competitiveness and business. They have to hear

20:59

that stuff anyway at home. Why do

21:01

you want to watch a show about

21:03

it? I wonder

21:05

if you belong to the breed

21:07

of creators who can't watch their

21:09

own content without nitpicking and critiquing.

21:12

Can you sit back and feel

21:14

proud of it and enjoy it?

21:16

Yes. How? Because I would really like

21:18

to learn that skill, and I know there are others

21:20

who would do. By the time we hit Scandal, I

21:23

was really able to sit back

21:25

and just be proud of the work

21:27

and enjoy it and find things that

21:29

were funny. Because it's

21:31

not just me. You

21:33

know, there are 300 people who make that show.

21:35

So you're looking at the work of all

21:37

of these other people, all kinds of people. You're

21:40

appreciating the work of the actors, you're

21:42

appreciating the director, the cinematography, the other

21:44

writers, the crew, costumes. To

21:46

me, it wasn't me that I'm watching.

21:48

I'm getting to watch something put together

21:51

by a whole group of people. I

21:53

imagined something. It went on a page,

21:55

but 300 people made it. This is

21:57

clearly a virtue of making shows as

21:59

opposed to writing books. Yeah.

22:02

I agree with that, too. You've

22:04

alluded to being an introvert and referenced it at

22:06

least once. First of all,

22:08

full disclosure, I am also an introvert. I

22:10

think we've both overcome a lot of shyness to

22:13

be on this stage. I agree. I agree.

22:15

Some colleagues and I did research years ago where

22:17

we studied introverted and extroverted leaders. And

22:19

we found that if you had a really

22:21

reactive, passive team that was looking for direction,

22:23

the extroverts were more effective. They were bringing

22:25

the energy and they were engaging everyone. But

22:28

if you had a proactive team with tons of

22:30

ideas and suggestions, the introverts actually

22:32

led greater success. No, I like that.

22:34

I think my philosophy has always

22:36

been for at least 20 years. If

22:38

you hired people to do a

22:40

job, you should let them do that

22:42

job. Like it's not my job

22:44

to micromanage you. And

22:47

if I've hired you and I don't have

22:50

faith in you enough to do that job,

22:52

then why have I hired you? So

22:54

I hire people and I don't question

22:56

their aspects of a job. I ask a

22:58

lot of questions. I try to learn

23:00

a lot, but I don't tell anybody how

23:02

to do their job. The

23:04

company has grown. It used to be just

23:06

like me and another person, but now it's

23:08

a whole bunch of people. Now that we've

23:10

grown, It is a company full of people

23:12

who feel empowered to do their jobs and

23:14

feel trusted to do their jobs. And it

23:16

is a much more productive workplace than anything

23:19

else. When people are sitting around waiting for

23:21

you to tell them what to do, it's

23:23

painful for them and for you. And

23:25

I say that as somebody who my scripts will be

23:27

late and the crew will be waiting for pages. But

23:30

in the office, It's always

23:32

moving people are always having ideas. They're

23:34

always building and that's exciting to me

23:36

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24:48

it's me Paige DeSorbo, and I'm

24:50

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24:52

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sneakers from the Paige DeSorbo collection

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right now at your DS store

25:16

or dsw.com. I'm

25:21

so fascinated by the work that

25:23

you do as a creator who then

25:25

chose to become a leader and

25:27

lead other creators, but also have to

25:29

teach some, can I call them

25:31

suits, bean counters, some

25:34

traditional executives. Yes, traditional executives, especially.

25:36

How do you engage with creative

25:38

work? You have spoken so insightfully

25:40

about how to coach executives to

25:42

judge creative work and give feedback.

25:45

Can you talk to us about

25:47

that? Writers think that

25:49

they're making magical plays and stories

25:51

that work, and the executives think

25:53

you're making us money, right?

25:55

They're coming from a completely different world. What's

25:58

hard to remember with a creative job,

26:00

you can't actually say, well, we did this,

26:02

this, this before. So if you do

26:04

this, this, and this again, it'll work.

26:06

That's not gonna work, and you can't talk to a

26:08

creative that way. But what I learned

26:10

is that instead of railing against any

26:12

notes they gave or railing against anything

26:14

that they told me, it would be

26:16

better if I just said, You know what

26:18

works for me? Like, you know how

26:20

you can give me a note that

26:22

I'm really going to understand if you do

26:25

this? And it was always, don't tell

26:27

me the solution. The solution is

26:29

my problem is the creative. Tell me what your

26:31

problem is. Tell me what's not working for

26:33

you. And that really changed my

26:35

relationship with a bunch of suits because it

26:37

allowed them to feel empowered, to give

26:39

notes and feel like they were going to

26:41

be heard without being on a phone

26:43

with me while I made very loud sighs

26:45

and other passive aggressive. things

26:47

about the things that they were pitching

26:49

to me that they wanted me to do.

26:52

It reminds me of feedback I've given

26:54

to my own teams, which is sometimes they

26:56

will jump to solutions to problems they

26:58

pointed out. And they think they're being helpful

27:00

and taking ownership. And what I have

27:02

to say to them is you're not close

27:04

enough to the work that I created

27:06

to know whether this solution you're offering me

27:08

is going to cause other problems. Yes.

27:10

Why I need you is you have distance

27:12

that I don't. And that gives you

27:14

perspective to hold up a mirror and see

27:16

the problems more clearly. Yeah. And I

27:18

always presented it as what would make me

27:20

perform best. That's very Jerry

27:22

Maguire. Help me help you. Exactly.

27:25

I want to talk a little bit about

27:27

failure. It's amazing, your failures have not

27:29

been very visible compared to your successes. Yeah.

27:32

At all. I haven't had that many

27:34

of them. You've had shockingly few. Yeah. I

27:37

actually had to dig pretty deep into Google

27:39

to find any. I think at some point

27:41

there was a war correspondent pilot that didn't

27:43

get picked up. I didn't look at that

27:45

like a failure. So my very

27:47

first think foray into television was they hire

27:49

you to write a script. And if they

27:51

like that script, they'll turn it into a

27:53

television pilot. If they like the pilot, it

27:55

becomes a series. So I wrote

27:57

a script about war correspondence for women

28:00

who were covering wars, who were really

28:02

tough and really competitive about their jobs.

28:05

And we were at war. And

28:08

so nobody, ABC was like, you've

28:10

lost your mind. Like, we're not making this. And

28:12

It taught me a valuable lesson because the

28:14

next question I asked is, well, Bob Iger

28:16

runs this company. What does Bob Iger want

28:19

to see? And they said, Bob Iger wants

28:21

to see a medical show. So I wrote

28:23

Grey's Anatomy. So for me,

28:25

it wasn't a failure as much as it

28:27

was, I'm testing out my theories of how

28:29

to get this done. Wow. So

28:31

that was just feedback for you and then you

28:33

pivoted. Exactly. Now, when something you

28:35

were excited about didn't get adopted or didn't

28:37

get the immediate yes that you were looking

28:39

for, is that just feedback? Is that how

28:42

you dealt with it? Sometimes it was

28:44

feedback. Sometimes it was they're absolutely

28:46

wrong. So I'm going to go around and

28:48

figure out how to make that happen anyway. I

28:51

was really raised with a

28:53

philosophy. I

28:55

really am grateful that I was raised with

28:57

the philosophy because I wish everybody had it.

28:59

That there are no such thing as obstacles.

29:01

There are no walls. There are

29:03

hills to be climbed. There are

29:05

objects to go around, but they're not stopping

29:07

you in any way. So

29:09

that belief for me always made

29:11

me think, well, there's another

29:14

way. I think you were way ahead

29:16

of the curve in terms of going to streaming. And

29:18

I think there were a lot of people who were

29:20

like, okay, you've been that successful on ABC. Like,

29:22

network is your bread and butter. Stay

29:24

there. And you chose to say, no, I

29:26

want to go to Netflix. How did

29:28

you know? ABC had done

29:30

great by me. We'd had all these shows.

29:32

We were doing scandal and grays and had

29:34

to get away with murder at the time.

29:37

Things were going fine. But things

29:39

were going fine. In

29:42

the beginning, there would be problems that would happen with

29:44

our crew or a cast or a set or something

29:46

production. And my producing partner Betsy

29:48

Beers and I would sit and it would take

29:50

us weeks to figure out like the best way to

29:52

fix it and do it correctly. And we'd be

29:54

really proud of ourselves when we solved the problem. By

29:57

the end, that same problem could come

29:59

up and Betsy and I could have that

30:01

problem solved in five minutes because we

30:03

had all the experience we'd learned. And

30:05

I felt like I wasn't learning anything

30:07

new. I know exactly how to make

30:09

network television. I know exactly what will

30:11

work and what they respond to in terms

30:14

of the executives, not the audience. And

30:16

I felt like I was looking at

30:18

how people were watching television. I

30:20

wasn't watching network television at the time.

30:22

I was watching cable. I was

30:24

obsessed with Netflix. So to

30:26

me, I thought, this is moving

30:28

someplace else. And I was

30:30

watching what Netflix was doing, and they

30:33

were doing things like making the crown

30:35

for like $12 million an episode, which

30:37

was... the budget you'd have in television

30:39

and just beautiful work and I thought

30:41

I want to go over there and

30:43

do what I do there and I

30:45

remember my agent Said I was crazy

30:48

and that was a terrible idea But

30:50

then when I said I really really

30:52

want to do this he went and

30:54

found and created a model for me

30:56

to do it because it hadn't been

30:58

done before nobody had had a deal

31:00

like that at a Streamer streamers didn't

31:03

make deals like that. So he built

31:05

the deal that I needed to go

31:07

there. And it was the first one.

31:09

I remember the very big splash it

31:11

made when it was announced, but

31:13

I also felt really good about it.

31:15

I had come to peace with it.

31:18

My biggest issue or concern was my

31:20

team, the people who worked on our

31:22

shows, make sure that they understood and

31:24

felt like your lives are going to

31:26

remain the same. Like, I'm not gone.

31:28

That's not how this works. And then

31:30

for the people in the office, we're

31:32

all making the sleep together. Like,

31:35

it's a scary leap because it hasn't been

31:37

done and you're suddenly thinking to yourselves, maybe I

31:39

should go get a job someplace else. But

31:41

we're going to make this leap

31:43

together and, you know, I recognize that

31:46

this is stressful for all of

31:48

you. It's so fascinating to see just

31:50

how willing you are to follow

31:52

your own attention and interest as opposed

31:54

to just deferring to what other

31:56

people think might be good. It

31:58

truly thinks it's a real leader. goes

32:01

forward when they know that it's sort

32:03

of the right North Star. It

32:05

is very easy to sit back

32:07

and just keep doing what you're doing.

32:09

I could have been making network

32:11

television for another 20 years. But

32:13

that wasn't exciting to me. It

32:15

also didn't feel like where the wind

32:17

was blowing in terms of innovation. And

32:20

to me, I feel like you have to

32:23

seize those moments. You have to ask yourself, if

32:25

you're going to stay, why am I staying?

32:27

And if the reason is, because it's comfortable,

32:29

that might not be the right reason. And

32:31

you ask yourself why I'm going. When

32:33

you can say your why for going, you

32:35

know you're right. So

32:37

it seems like the pace

32:39

of change is accelerating. And

32:42

with that, crisis is happening

32:44

more often than ever before. You

32:47

created scandal. Is there

32:49

a lesson from writing Olivia Pope

32:51

for crisis management that we can

32:53

all take away? Olivia

32:55

Pope is based on a real -life

32:58

crisis manager named Judy Smith, who then

33:00

consulted on our show. One

33:02

thing that she always said that was really

33:04

important was, never lie. In the

33:06

middle of a crisis, don't lie and

33:08

say, it's going to be all right,

33:10

or that didn't happen, or we're all

33:12

going to definitely do this. Don't lie.

33:14

The second is, no matter how bad

33:16

the truth is, you have to stand

33:18

in that truth. You have to be

33:20

ready to own that truth, because it's going

33:22

to come out eventually, and then the crisis gets

33:24

worse. Right? So you have to

33:26

be ready to own your truth and

33:28

stand in it. The other thing was she

33:31

would always say some version of don't

33:33

try to hide it or spin it in

33:35

a way that just makes you look

33:37

good. If you're going to spin it, spin

33:39

it towards a way that makes you

33:41

look like you're truthful or that you have

33:43

integrity or those sorts of things. But

33:45

you can't pretend a crisis isn't happening and

33:47

you can't think it's just going to

33:50

blow over either. That's the worst. That's when

33:52

the rumor mill starts because in the

33:54

absence of information, they're going to come up

33:56

with information. Right? Do you know

33:58

what I'm talking about? I'm hearing a

34:00

lot of uh -ohs right now. But

34:02

it's so true. They come up with information

34:04

and then you're dealing with a group of people

34:06

who, much like the world

34:08

right now, who have created their own

34:10

truth and believe it. And

34:12

then whatever you say, then they feel

34:14

like you're trying to gaslight them or

34:17

you're trying to get them to be

34:19

quiet. And that never works. I mean,

34:21

obviously, that becomes a nightmare. This

34:23

reminds me of some recent evidence

34:25

that leaders are, on average, nine times

34:27

more likely to be criticized for

34:29

under -communicating than over -communicating. If what you

34:31

know has to be a secret, right,

34:35

you have to be really careful about how you're

34:37

maintaining that. Because the reality of it is, is

34:39

90 % of the things you think, like, we shouldn't

34:41

tell the employees this, a lot of

34:43

the time you can tell them, and then

34:45

they feel a part of it. it's

34:48

helpful for people to feel like they're getting

34:50

a steady flow of information. And when

34:52

you can't tell them, tell them you

34:54

can't tell them, as opposed to sort

34:56

of pretending that nothing's going on. Okay,

34:59

so we got a crisis lesson from Scandal. From

35:02

Grace, do you have a favorite

35:04

leadership or collaboration takeaway? Yes.

35:07

I mean, grace is based on young interns

35:09

coming in and learning how to do surgery. And

35:12

you know, there's a very

35:14

clear learning curve, which is see

35:16

one do one, teach one. So

35:18

first you see it done, then you do it yourself,

35:20

and then you have to know it well enough to be

35:22

able to teach it to somebody else. That

35:25

works for almost everything in terms

35:27

of training people and in terms of

35:29

even stuff for me like public

35:31

speaking and things that made me nervous.

35:34

The see one do one teach one takes

35:36

that nervousness away. It allows people to

35:38

feel qualified. I think so many people

35:41

say, I need a coach to get better.

35:43

Like, yeah, you want that. You also want

35:45

to be a coach because when you teach

35:47

someone else a skill, you remember it better

35:49

after you explain it. And you also understand

35:51

it better after having to unpack it. Absolutely.

35:53

I am not going to ask you for

35:55

a work lesson from Bridgerton. I have a

35:57

wonderful question that Sally Colwell submitted. She's full

36:00

of creative ideas, and this is no exception.

36:02

She wants to know, what

36:04

have you learned about leadership

36:06

from being a creative writer? And

36:09

then on the flip side, is

36:11

there something that writers should learn from

36:13

leaders? I think

36:15

there's a ton that writers can learn from leaders. When

36:18

it became clear that I wanted my company

36:20

to be more than just me

36:22

running different shows when I wanted it

36:24

to be a storytelling company where we

36:26

did more things, where we were involved

36:28

in merchandise, where we were involved in

36:30

podcasts. When we became bigger in that

36:33

way, it became really clear that I

36:35

needed to understand leadership on a higher

36:37

level. I did a lot of reading.

36:40

Everybody thinks they need a mentor. I

36:42

didn't have any mentors and I didn't

36:44

know anybody when I entered Hollywood. So

36:46

my mentors were books. I would read

36:48

people's biographies, I would read people's memoirs,

36:50

I would read people's leadership books and

36:52

that to me was enough because a

36:54

lot of people don't have access to

36:56

a mentor. I think creative writers

36:58

really come from a place where there's not

37:00

just one way things can happen. I

37:03

always say like I'm the best

37:05

worst case scenario builder that you will

37:07

ever meet because I can think

37:09

of 5 ,000 ways something's gonna go

37:11

wrong because it makes good story, right?

37:14

But I think a lot of leaders really

37:16

have their idea that I've learned what

37:18

I'm doing. I know what I'm doing. This

37:20

has always worked for me. But they're

37:23

not thinking creatively about other ways that they

37:25

can either take what they know and

37:27

apply it or take what they know and

37:29

add stuff that they don't know to

37:31

make themselves better. You're speaking to the fact

37:33

that every leader in the room is

37:35

a storyteller. I absolutely think so.

37:37

I think that if you can't tell

37:39

the story of your company, your department,

37:42

your time in there, the story of who

37:44

you are, you're not really communicating the

37:46

way you should. It's not every day that

37:48

we get to sit down with a

37:50

master storyteller and ask, how do we get

37:52

better at it? What are your favorite

37:54

lessons and principles of storytelling? The

37:56

one that I always hear to the most is,

37:58

is if you've seen it before, don't

38:01

do it again. You don't want to sort

38:03

of take somebody else's story and try to

38:05

make it your own because it's easy and

38:07

it's good and you know that it works.

38:09

Truly, what is your story? Like, what is

38:11

your unique story? So one, I always say,

38:13

don't copy. Two, I would say

38:15

people love to have stories where like there's a

38:18

surprise at the end and that's great, but don't

38:20

bury the lead ever. You know, you

38:22

watch Scandal two seconds in, you know exactly who Olivia

38:24

Pope is and what kind of person she's going to

38:26

be, right? And also paint

38:28

a picture. You

38:30

know, people talk and they say

38:32

lots of words, but they

38:34

don't necessarily say something that holds

38:36

somebody's imagination because you're not

38:38

painting a picture. You're not saying,

38:40

you know, who you are

38:43

in that, in that context. It

38:45

speaks to some research led by Drew

38:47

Carton, which showed that as people climb

38:49

up a hierarchy, we tend to

38:51

select people on the basis of their abstract

38:53

thinking skills. And so basically, the

38:55

closer you get to the C -suite,

38:57

the worse you are at painting a

38:59

picture. Yeah, that's interesting. So I

39:01

think we need your skills at the top more

39:03

than anywhere else. Everybody at the

39:05

company has to understand. why we tell

39:07

the stories we tell in order

39:09

to do their jobs. So there's a

39:11

lot of me explaining what makes

39:14

a Shondaland story, a Shondaland story. And

39:16

a lot of my team sort

39:18

of using observations and building out that

39:20

to then move forward with something.

39:22

Like you say there's no leadership lessons

39:24

to be learned from Bridgerton, but...

39:26

Bridgerton is a show set in Regency,

39:28

England. We have sold

39:30

and created more merchandise for

39:32

that show than any other

39:34

show. We innovated sort of

39:36

amazing, interesting ways to make

39:38

it a global brand. My

39:41

favorite is that we did a commercial for Flonase.

39:43

There was the couple Penelope and

39:45

Colin, and they called them

39:47

hashtag pollen. So we did

39:50

a commercial about pollen season and

39:52

Flonase. And it was

39:54

incredibly successful. It's won awards, been nominated

39:56

for awards. But more importantly, what

39:58

that was was us innovating ways in

40:00

which to take things like advertising

40:02

dollars, which are very hard to integrate

40:04

into a show that's set in

40:06

regions England. We become really good at

40:08

looking at what our show is

40:10

about, which is romance and love, and

40:13

then innovating that into we have

40:15

a line of wedding gowns. that people

40:17

are really excited about. Everybody

40:19

talks about the tea that served on

40:21

Bridgerton, or the tea that served up on

40:23

Bridgerton. We have teas,

40:25

we have teapots, we have a line

40:27

of things at William Sonoma. So we

40:29

innovated a lot of merchandise, a huge

40:31

global brand out of that, just thinking

40:34

about how we can bring more of

40:36

that to the audience. And it's not

40:38

just products, it's live experiences too. People

40:40

go to Bridgerton Balls now. We have

40:42

Bridgerton Balls and... funny because I, when

40:44

they first thought up, I thought like,

40:46

this is crazy, but my team is

40:48

smart and they wanted to do it,

40:50

so they did it. And then they

40:52

brought me to see one and it's

40:54

magical. Apparently it's a great date night.

40:57

I'll report back. Okay. If

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42:38

you ready for a

42:40

lightning round? OK, lightning

42:42

round. OK, first question. Worst

42:44

career advice you've ever gotten? To

42:47

be quiet. If you want to get ahead like

42:49

you have to not make waves, the worst career

42:51

advice I've ever gotten. And it was about being

42:53

really quiet on social media. We were

42:55

really loud on social media and then

42:58

we created a whole brand of social media

43:00

where you live tweet the shows and

43:02

things like that. So that was terrible advice.

43:04

But the best advice I've ever been

43:06

given is never enter a negotiation you're not

43:08

willing to walk away from for anything. If

43:11

you walk into that room without knowing

43:13

what your bottom line is, then you've

43:15

already lost. because if you're like, I

43:17

just really want this job, but you

43:19

haven't set any boundaries for yourself, they

43:21

are going to take you for all

43:23

your worth. So great to

43:25

have you teaching negotiation lessons. Yes,

43:28

Shonda just nailed the bat, no, the

43:30

best alternative to negotiated agreement. Favorite

43:33

character you've created? It's

43:35

a tie between

43:37

Christina Yang, right?

43:41

Olivia Pope. And

43:44

Queen Charlotte, the young Queen

43:46

Charlotte. People

43:49

are showing their allegiances right now. Yes, I

43:51

know. But I love those

43:53

women and I think that creating

43:55

them, in creating all those women

43:57

and writing them, I learned stuff about

43:59

myself and I grew. Which

44:01

character is most and least like you? I

44:04

don't want to say Olivia Pope's most like me because,

44:06

you know, at the end she goes kind of mad. But

44:08

maybe the beginning, I'm very

44:10

much like Olivia Pope now. The

44:13

character that's least like me. Meredith

44:15

Gray. And I think

44:17

she's least like me in

44:19

ways that I admire

44:22

her for. She's emotionally available

44:24

constantly. She's, you know, not

44:26

afraid to be bad at her job. Did

44:29

I say too much? Yeah. But

44:32

I think I'm least like her. What's

44:34

the question for me that you have

44:36

about organizational psychology? Oh, wow. What

44:40

is the one thing you wish people would

44:42

stop doing? Stop doing.

44:45

Stop doing. Mass layoffs. There

44:47

you go. I

44:52

think that's a good one. It's

44:54

an easy one. There was a paper

44:56

published in one of our top

44:58

journals that literally called layoffs dumb and

45:00

dumber. Oh wow. Can I ask

45:02

you one more? If you

45:04

insist. What

45:07

do you understand

45:09

to be the best

45:11

leadership environment for

45:13

creative people. Tell

45:15

me what a leadership environment means

45:17

to you. It means you're the

45:19

person running things and you're running

45:21

things with a lot of creative

45:23

people under you and you're trying

45:25

to cultivate a corporate environment or

45:27

a company environment where people feel

45:29

free to create but also free

45:31

to fail. I think

45:33

the single thing that matters most is

45:36

a leader who's willing to fall

45:38

flat on her face. Excellent. I like

45:40

that. I think that kind of

45:42

humility and role modeling of experimentation and

45:44

risk -taking cascades very quickly down the

45:46

organization. I agree. That's good.

45:48

You have spoken very publicly about how you're

45:50

always trying to get better. So what are you

45:52

trying to get better at right now? At

45:55

work, I think I'm really

45:57

trying to get better at understanding

45:59

the needs of people. Like,

46:02

I was very much a person who

46:04

felt like... know how you're doing at

46:06

your job? You're doing great. And you

46:08

know how you know that you have

46:10

a job. That was sort of my

46:12

attitude. If you're here, I obviously value

46:14

and trust you. And now I'm trying

46:16

to get better at understanding sort of

46:18

the people and what they need from

46:20

me versus what I need to share

46:22

with them to make them successful. It

46:24

sounds like you're working on evolving from being

46:26

primarily task oriented to being a little bit

46:28

more relationship oriented. Yes. Oh, that's a nice

46:30

way of putting it. How do

46:32

you think about working on that? Do you have a

46:34

coach? Do you have a practice around developing

46:36

that skill? I don't have time for a coach.

46:38

I have to be honest, like that, I

46:41

would... Oh. Am

46:45

I about to get schooled by all of

46:47

you? I need

46:49

a coach? Okay, I

46:51

like that. They can even watch you while

46:53

you're working, so it doesn't take that much

46:55

time. Okay. I'm really trying more

46:57

to connect with the stories of the

46:59

people who work here and what they can

47:01

bring. I'm really trying to understand sort

47:03

of what brought them to the company. We

47:05

just had a big leadership change where

47:07

I just named co -presidents of the company

47:10

and they've been spectacular at sort of pointing

47:12

out the things that they think I'm

47:14

lacking in in a way that's been really

47:16

helpful for me to allow them to

47:18

do their job. I love how you've just

47:20

figured out all these things that our

47:22

whole community of researchers has taken decades to

47:24

produce. I'm like, oh, you're describing, don't

47:26

wait for the exit interview. Do the entry

47:28

interview to find out why did you

47:30

join and what would keep you. Oh, yeah.

47:33

That's what I'm doing exactly. Based

47:36

on research. I think one of the best

47:38

things about having a real role model on stage

47:40

is we get to see your superpower in

47:42

action. So I have a quick TV

47:44

show idea that I want to pitch you. Are

47:48

you ready? I'm ready. Okay, so my

47:50

pitch is what if we colonize the moon

47:52

or Mars and somebody who studies the

47:54

kinds of things that we all love in

47:56

this room around leadership and talent and

47:58

culture gets sent to try to clean up

48:00

that mess? Is that a show worth

48:02

making? Oh, that's interesting.

48:05

Any show about a fixer is a good show. I

48:07

don't know what your conflict is. So you

48:09

got to tell me what the conflict is. What's the problem

48:11

you're trying to solve? You say clean up that mess. What's

48:13

the mess? What's going on? Those are

48:15

great notes that I will pass along. OK,

48:21

Shonda, last question for you. If you could

48:23

leave all the amazing leaders in the room

48:25

with us today with one piece of advice,

48:27

what would it be? I think

48:29

it's really about being free to

48:31

question yourself and the processes. I

48:34

always say that the most important thing I've learned

48:36

is to admit when I don't know something, but also

48:38

to ask why. If we're going to make a

48:40

big change as a company, if we're going to innovate

48:42

a product, my question is, yes, I know we

48:44

can do it, but why are we doing it? change

48:48

a job description. If we're going to move somebody

48:50

from one area to another, why are we doing this?

48:52

So to me, like the questioning, the why of

48:54

everything is really important to me. I have to know

48:56

that in order to move forward because you have

48:58

to know that for your characters in order to tell

49:00

a story. Shonda, I just

49:02

want to say thank you. Your work is a gift to

49:04

the world. Thank you. And

49:06

I really, I really love

49:08

talking this. This was fun.

49:12

You all know how they say

49:14

never meet your heroes. This is

49:16

a hero worth meeting. Oh, thank

49:18

you. Oh my god Rethinking is

49:20

hosted by me Adam Grant the

49:22

show is part of the Ted

49:24

audio collective and this episode was

49:27

produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard

49:29

our producers are Hannah Kingsley Ma

49:31

and Asia Simpson our editor is

49:33

Alejandra Salazar our fact checker is

49:35

Paul Durbin original music by Hans

49:37

Dale Sue and Allison Layton Brown When

49:53

she stepped out of the car, you could tell

49:55

from just her foot that it was Oprah. It

49:57

was crazy. Well, that's good,

49:59

she said. And you get a car, no. Sisterwise

50:09

returns at last, and while the

50:11

Browns have gone their own separate ways,

50:13

that doesn't mean they're done with

50:15

each other. Mary and Janelle form an

50:17

unlikely alliance. Christine is off living

50:19

in newly married bliss, and Cody and

50:21

Robin are left wondering, can they

50:23

be happy in a monogamous relationship? And

50:25

after all the joy and drama,

50:27

they hit the hot seat and answer

50:29

the questions we've been begging to

50:31

know. Sisterwise all new Sunday at 10

50:33

on TLC. How

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