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Use is directed. is

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I'm one of the producers of Season

0:41

6 of World of Secrets. I just

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so you get every episode automatically.

0:56

This episode contains sexual

0:59

content, allegations of

1:01

sexual exploitation and

1:03

some strong language. A man

1:05

we're going to call Jack normally

1:08

spends his weekdays out at work,

1:10

but unusually, on Tuesday, 28th November,

1:12

2023, he has a day off.

1:15

At around 10 in the morning,

1:17

he takes a stroll around his

1:19

neighbourhood. He lives in a suburb

1:22

to the east of Paris

1:24

called Villiers Simon. And a

1:26

minibus was parked just in

1:28

front of my house. I

1:31

was curious, obviously. People are

1:33

congregating around one of the houses

1:35

further up the street. He watches

1:37

in disbelief as armed police leave

1:40

their vehicle and storm into the

1:42

house. Few minutes later, they come

1:45

back out the front door, bringing

1:47

with the women one by one.

1:49

The girls coming out of the

1:52

house. I wasn't able to count

1:54

but at least 12, maybe 15,

1:56

maybe 20. I was wondering these

1:59

girls were they... Arrested? Later that

2:01

day, Jacques checks the news.

2:03

He learns there was actually

2:05

26 women that came out

2:08

of that house and they

2:10

weren't being arrested. According to

2:12

the police, they were being

2:14

rescued. From the news reports,

2:16

Jack reads that their removal

2:18

was part of a huge

2:21

operation involving 175 police officers

2:23

carrying out raids across Paris.

2:25

And the strangest part is

2:27

that the people being arrested

2:29

are all part of an

2:32

international yoga movement or organizations

2:34

affiliated to Atman, the International

2:36

Federation of Yoga and Meditation.

2:38

In total that day, over

2:40

40 people associated with the

2:42

yoga movement arrested in France,

2:45

including the 71-year-old spiritual guide

2:47

Gregorian Pivalaru. A few days

2:49

later, the spiritual guide is

2:51

charged with human trafficking. organized

2:53

kidnapping, rape, and the French

2:56

criminal offence of organised abuse

2:58

or weakness by a sect,

3:00

and anti-cult law which doesn't

3:02

exist in England, he is

3:04

reminded in custody. How on

3:06

Earth is a yoga movement

3:09

at the centre of a

3:11

mass police operation? This is

3:13

World of Secrets, season 6,

3:15

The Bad Guru, a BBC

3:17

Radio 4 investigation. I'm Kat

3:20

McShane, episode 6, the return.

3:23

It was empowering to feel

3:25

some sense of something positive

3:27

and constructive happening. Miranda is

3:29

one of the former members

3:31

of this yoga movement who

3:33

spent time in that holding

3:35

house in Paris, waiting for

3:37

her initiation with Gregorian Bivalaru.

3:39

She used to revere him

3:41

as a guru. Then she

3:44

became one of the several

3:46

women who complained about him

3:48

to the French police. She's

3:50

pleased he's now been arrested.

3:52

I felt safer in a...

3:54

in a physical sense, I

3:56

felt a sense of relief,

3:58

but it was also accompanied

4:00

by a concern. and knowing

4:02

that many hundreds of, if

4:04

not more, of kind of

4:07

pretty hardcore devotees would know

4:09

that I personally had something

4:11

to do with this and

4:13

understanding from having been in

4:15

the organization, knowing the rhetoric,

4:17

knowing the group think, the

4:19

way in which they will

4:21

be blaming and demonizing me.

4:23

So just because he's behind

4:25

bars, you know. He's still

4:27

their spiritual leader. He's still

4:29

their guru. They still try

4:32

to be like him unless

4:34

something changes within the way

4:36

that that organization operates. It's

4:38

going to continue. It's going

4:40

to keep damaging people. After

4:51

I hear about the arrests, my

4:53

mind immediately turns to what impact

4:55

it's going to have here in

4:58

the UK. Goring Bivalari's umbrella organisation

5:00

of Tantric Yoga Schools, the Atman

5:02

Federation, is based in the UK,

5:05

and its English affiliate, a registered

5:07

charity called Tara Yoga Centre, has

5:10

studios in London, Oxford and Plymouth,

5:12

and over the years has run

5:14

classes in Cambridge, Birmingham, Manchester Lead,

5:17

Bursen-on-on-Trent, Woking and Dublin. Gregorian Bivalaro

5:19

has spent most of the past

5:22

decade on the run from sex

5:24

offence and human trafficking charges, but

5:26

that hasn't stopped the Atman Federation

5:29

and the Tara Yoga Centre from

5:31

promoting him as a spiritual guide.

5:33

Four women I've spoken to even

5:36

say they were approached by teachers

5:38

at the Tara Yoga Centre to

5:41

visit Bivalaro for an initiation ritual.

5:43

during his periods in hiding as

5:45

a fugitive. I have met Professor

5:48

Rivolari on multiple occasions over many

5:50

years and he always manifested with

5:53

me a wonderful state of humbleness

5:55

and immense willingness to help me

5:57

with everything that I have. I've

6:00

also heard this secret recording

6:02

of senior figures at Tara Yoga

6:04

Centre talking about their own contact

6:07

with Gregorian Bivalaru who they call

6:09

Greek. This recording was made in

6:11

2022. It's from a meeting

6:13

called to denounce a former

6:15

student Miranda who had made

6:17

allegations about trafficking and abuse

6:20

among Bivalari's followers. Miranda had also

6:22

visited the spiritual guide when

6:24

he was in hiding in

6:26

Paris. Her trip wasn't one

6:28

organised by the Tara Yoga

6:30

Centre. But one of the

6:32

prominent women there, someone called

6:34

Catherine, says she had been

6:36

in touch with the guru

6:38

on Miranda's behalf to arrange

6:40

a second visit to him.

6:43

Catherine says this was at

6:45

Miranda's request and Maria Pours

6:47

felt the most important figure

6:50

in Tara at the time,

6:52

says she sees nothing wrong

6:54

with arranging a follow-up visit

6:56

to the fugitive guru. With

6:59

bivolaries doing hiding, no doubt it

7:01

would, like the first visit, have been

7:03

another clandestine trip through Paris. We were

7:05

told that we should put on one

7:07

of these pairs of dark glasses which

7:10

had masking tape on the inside and

7:12

put on a hat and pull it

7:14

down over our eyes so that we

7:16

couldn't see where we were going. and

7:18

then time spent in a holding

7:20

house. We had to hand over

7:23

our passports, mobile phones, credit cards,

7:25

any other ideas. It's true, Miranda

7:27

did at one point want to

7:29

return, even though the first time her

7:31

meeting with the guru was

7:34

a traumatizing sexual initiation. Now,

7:36

she wants nothing more to do with

7:38

him. She believes this is a cult. On

7:40

the secret recording of the

7:42

meeting, a male teacher also

7:44

talks about visiting Gregorian Bivalaru.

7:47

And I had the chance to meet

7:49

Creed about 10 years ago. The man

7:51

who is speaking is Bogden Redasenu,

7:53

a teacher at Tara Yoga

7:55

Centre. He's also a director

7:57

of the Atman Federation on

7:59

bread. organization. The way he

8:01

describes his visit to Gagori

8:03

and Bivalaru suggests it was

8:06

when the guru was a

8:08

wanted man. In some ways,

8:10

it's surprising to hear the

8:12

teachers at Tarayoga Centre talk

8:14

so openly about their contact

8:16

with Gagori and Bivalaru. As

8:18

I said earlier, Tarayoga Centre

8:21

is a registered charity. According

8:23

to the regulator, the charity

8:25

commission, the trustees of Tara

8:27

assured them in 2020 that

8:29

they had no involvement with

8:31

Gregorian Bivalari. I wonder what

8:34

the reaction to Bivalari's recent

8:36

arrest will be at the

8:38

Atman Federation and its affiliate,

8:40

the Tarayoga Centre. I type

8:42

in Tarayoga's web address to

8:44

see if there's any announcement

8:47

to reassure students. I see

8:49

they've put out a press

8:51

release about Gregorian Bivalari's arrest.

8:53

It says... They don't know

8:55

anything more than what is

8:57

being reported in the media

8:59

and that they're following the

9:02

situation closely. The reaction on

9:04

the website of the Atman

9:06

Federation, to which Tara Yoga

9:08

is affiliated, is more bullish.

9:10

Reproducing a statement from Atman's

9:12

remaining affiliate, they reply robustly

9:15

to the accusations. None of

9:17

the 26 alleged victims gave

9:19

any statement against Gregorian Bivalaru

9:21

or any other person. None

9:23

considered themselves exploited, abused, trafficked

9:25

or the victim of any

9:27

rape. It appears that even

9:30

though Gregorian Bivalaro was arrested,

9:32

both that man and Tara

9:34

are continuing with business as

9:36

usual. Neither seems to be

9:38

reflecting on their own connection

9:40

with Bivalaro. Yeah, yeah, I

9:43

can hear you out. A

9:45

few months after Goring Bivlara

9:47

was arrested, the French authorities

9:49

had been in touch with

9:51

Miranda. She's being called to

9:53

give her testimony in France.

9:56

I phoned Miranda just before

9:58

she bought her flight. Paris.

10:00

I'm just having to sit

10:02

down at Pratt. Absolutely, absolute

10:04

classic airport, vital pre-lane airport

10:06

trips of Pratt. I'll be

10:08

joining her there in a

10:10

couple of days' time. So

10:12

look, what's happening in Paris

10:14

this week? So first up

10:16

is the tribunal. Tomorrow morning

10:18

we're going to see the

10:20

judge at 10 and they

10:22

told me that it will

10:24

be just us and the

10:26

judge and her clerk. So

10:29

that's a relief. There's no

10:31

legal representation from the defense.

10:33

I'm not going to be

10:35

cross-examined. They said, you know,

10:37

the purpose of this is

10:39

not to question your testimony.

10:41

It's to see what the

10:43

long-lasting impact is on you

10:45

and also to identify the

10:47

roles of the other kind

10:49

of co-conspirators, the other key

10:51

players and the whole operation.

10:53

Just cause the parent. Yeah,

10:55

apparently they are claiming that

10:57

they are also victims as

10:59

are their lawyers. How do

11:01

you feel about that? You

11:03

know, I was just assuming

11:05

that it would be like

11:07

the things I see on

11:09

TV with kind of cross-examination

11:12

and things. So it's a

11:14

relief to know that won't

11:16

be happening. I feel annoyed

11:18

that I have to go.

11:20

I wish that I wasn't

11:22

having to spend all that

11:24

time and money going to

11:26

the place where I was

11:28

traumatized. brought to a petrol

11:30

station, service station somewhere in

11:32

the outskirts of Paris and

11:34

then I was blindfolded everywhere

11:36

else I went that wasn't

11:38

inside. So, you know, I

11:40

don't have some memories of

11:42

it. And I don't have,

11:44

you know, good memories of

11:46

kind of what happened to

11:48

my life from there on.

11:50

Maybe we can try and

11:52

create, have some kind of

11:54

better memory for you while

11:57

we're there. Maybe we can

11:59

have a glass of wine

12:01

by the Eiffel Tower or

12:03

something. That sounds nice. That

12:05

sounds nice. Okay. as a

12:07

safe flight, Miranda. I'm being

12:09

talked soon. Thanks God. As

12:11

Miranda heads off to Paris,

12:13

I think about the bits

12:15

of the testimony she might

12:17

be giving in France. She'll

12:19

be talking about her initiation

12:21

with the guru of course,

12:23

but will the French authorities

12:25

be interested in how she

12:27

learnt to revere Bivalaro at

12:29

the Tara Yoga Centre in

12:31

London? Or what she says

12:33

about succumbing to pressure to

12:35

take part in sexualised rituals?

12:37

We were told it was

12:40

optional, but if you didn't

12:42

want to participate you had

12:44

to leave and you had

12:46

to stay out for the

12:48

whole day. And what she

12:50

has told me happened after

12:52

she was taken to a

12:54

house near Prague. She said,

12:56

look, we do cam girl

12:58

work and you don't have

13:00

to do it, but you

13:02

need to pay for being

13:04

here and you need to

13:06

pay for your passage here.

13:08

She tells me about meeting

13:10

up with the judge. We

13:12

went to a room adjacent

13:14

to the judge's office. The

13:16

judge was wearing a kind

13:18

of pink sweater with daisies

13:20

on and jeans. I really

13:23

like the judge. I felt

13:25

that it's in good hands,

13:27

so that felt like a

13:29

huge relief. And gratitude that

13:31

the French authorities... cared enough

13:33

to do this and that

13:35

they listened to us and

13:37

that they looked at the

13:39

facts and that they cared

13:41

enough about us and about

13:43

other women. She said kind

13:45

of almost from the beginning,

13:47

I'm not going to you

13:49

know make you go through

13:51

any specific questions around GB

13:53

and it was a relief

13:55

because that's... one of the

13:57

most difficult parts to retail.

13:59

She was assessing my, you

14:01

know, the long-lasting impact on

14:03

my life. I also saw

14:05

some photos of... people that

14:08

I knew who were involved,

14:10

who were present at the

14:12

arrest and that was very

14:14

upsetting. So were they asking

14:16

you to identify people? Yes.

14:18

Even though I know the

14:20

process is really long and

14:22

it's far from over to

14:24

know that... We've taken

14:26

a really important step in

14:28

that and hopefully I won't

14:30

have to come back. It's

14:33

a relief and I feel

14:35

like I can finally close

14:37

one door or at least

14:39

start to close it and

14:41

open a new door in

14:43

my life. Miranda and I

14:45

discussed going to visit the

14:47

holding house that she was

14:49

kept in before her initiation

14:52

with Bivalaru. We both think

14:54

it might give her some

14:56

closure. So we drive east

14:58

to the street she stayed

15:00

at in a Paris suburb.

15:02

You remember Gossip is generally?

15:04

No, because I was blindfolded.

15:06

Always, yeah. We're going to

15:08

a house that holds a

15:11

lot of painful experiences. Do

15:13

you think that seeing it's

15:15

seeing it? and knowing the

15:17

house is no longer operational,

15:19

it's an empty crime scene,

15:21

might in any way help

15:23

let go of those associations

15:25

and that pain. I suppose

15:28

there'll be a sense of

15:30

relief in knowing that it's

15:32

no longer the site of

15:34

that same abuse and that

15:36

no one else will go

15:38

through what me or some

15:40

of the other women that

15:42

I know went through there.

15:44

I was nervous this morning.

15:47

the organization might still have

15:49

some kind of surveillance of

15:51

that property. I think that's

15:53

entirely possible. Okay, this is

15:55

the street. You can drop

15:57

us here. We

16:04

walk along the street towards

16:07

the holding house. Miranda's concerns

16:09

that she will somehow be

16:11

watched seems to me to

16:14

be paranoia. Vivolo and his

16:16

associates have been arrested. We

16:18

approached the house, expecting to

16:21

see an abandoned building, perhaps

16:23

with some police tape around

16:25

it. But instead, there's someone

16:28

in that house. That's the

16:30

house and there's someone in

16:32

the window. who just opened

16:35

and then closed the window

16:37

when they saw us. I

16:39

just want to get away

16:41

from here as quickly as

16:44

possible. Can you explain how

16:46

you're feeling? I feel really

16:48

nervous. I just can't believe

16:51

that those people are still

16:53

living there. We don't know

16:55

who is living there, but

16:58

Miranda suspects it's still Gregorian

17:00

Vivillari's followers. And what would

17:02

you be worried that they

17:05

might do if they... recognized

17:07

you. I just don't want

17:09

to see them and if

17:12

you look like a face

17:14

that I kind of semi-recognised

17:16

I'm kind of shaking a

17:19

bit. Yeah, yeah your bottom

17:21

lip is trembling. It could

17:23

be then that people have

17:25

been arrested but then released

17:28

and coming straight back. And

17:30

Miranda's put up her hood

17:32

and we're quickly walking away.

17:35

After walking away, She tells

17:37

me why she was so

17:39

upset to see someone in

17:42

the window in a place

17:44

she suspected still inhabited by

17:46

Goring Bivalari's followers. To know

17:49

that there's still people sitting

17:51

in that house carrying on

17:53

about their daily life and

17:56

cold activities makes me really

17:58

fucking angry. We're

18:00

walking down the side of the

18:02

Seine, we've got the Eiffel Tower

18:05

in front of us. While I'm

18:07

in Paris, Mirand asked me to

18:09

meet her on the banks of

18:12

the Seine, the main river running

18:14

through the city. When I arrive,

18:16

I see she's bought a couple

18:19

of objects with her. So I've

18:21

got two necklaces here that I

18:23

want to symbolically release, let go

18:26

of into the river. One necklace

18:28

which is from there. short tantra

18:30

course that prompted me to search

18:33

for tantra when I came back

18:35

to London. And the second one

18:37

is a mala which is a

18:40

prayer bead. I did quite a

18:42

lot of meditation. So yeah, I'm

18:44

just gonna say a few words

18:47

for myself and let them go.

18:49

I watched Miranda. She's in silent

18:52

contemplation. She then opens her clenched

18:54

fist. and lets the two necklaces

18:56

drop down into the river. She

18:59

turns to me and her face

19:01

is beaming. Her joy is infectious.

19:03

Other former members of Tarayoga Centre

19:06

tell me that they struggle with

19:08

moving on with their lives. At

19:10

least, is a hair stylist from

19:13

Oxford who went to the polarity

19:15

retreat in Somerset. Now that she's

19:17

no longer part of Tarayoga, she

19:20

is having to work out a

19:22

new identity for herself. I

19:25

modulated my behavior so much to

19:27

fit in with them that I

19:29

lost parts of myself that I'm

19:31

now trying to reclaim and that's

19:34

been a bit weird. I have

19:36

really angry dreams about the school

19:38

or about Greek or I feel

19:40

quite angry with the teachers specifically

19:42

because I feel like they know

19:44

what goes on and they just

19:46

like some of them want to

19:49

bury their head in the sand.

19:59

We He wrote to Gagawin Bivalaro

20:01

via his lawyer to give him

20:03

an opportunity to respond to the

20:06

allegations made against him. We did

20:08

not receive a reply. Misa, a

20:10

yoga organization associated with Mr Bivalaro,

20:12

strongly defended him, stating that he

20:15

has been the victim of political

20:17

persecution and false allegations and that

20:19

his teachings are followed by more

20:21

than 40,000 people around the world.

20:23

Tarayoga Centre declined to be

20:26

interviewed for this series. We wrote

20:28

to both Tara and Atman, the

20:30

International Federation of Yoga and Meditation,

20:32

we put it to both organisations

20:34

that through their encouragement of pushing

20:36

against sexual boundaries and a cult-like

20:39

veneration of Gagori and Bivalaru, they

20:41

have left some women vulnerable to

20:43

exploitation. We also put to Tara

20:45

Yoga Centre our evidence that senior

20:47

figures at Tara had acted as

20:49

a conduit for Gorgorian Bivalaru and

20:51

had encouraged women to travel to

20:53

Paris to meet him for a

20:55

sexual initiation during his years as

20:57

a fugitive. Tara Yoga Centre told

21:00

us we unequivocally condemn all forms

21:02

of abuse and they told us

21:04

that Gregorian Bivalaru does not have

21:06

direct contact with Tara Yoga Centre.

21:09

nor does he hold any decision-making

21:11

authority or influence over its

21:13

operations or finances. They said that they

21:15

had been advised that due to

21:17

legal proceedings, which they will vigorously

21:19

defend, it would be inappropriate to

21:21

comment further. The Atman Federation told

21:23

us that it operates entirely autonomously

21:26

of its member schools and that

21:28

it categorically condemns any kind of

21:30

abuse. They also said that as some

21:32

of the matters we raised may be

21:35

subject to legal proceedings, they had been

21:37

advised that it would be inappropriate for

21:39

them to comment further. The charity's

21:41

regulator, the charity commission, told

21:43

us that a compliance case regarding

21:45

Tarioga in 2020 gave rise to

21:48

regulatory concerns. notably around the

21:50

Trustee's governance of safeguarding procedures.

21:52

They told us they therefore provided

21:54

formal regulatory advice and guidance to

21:57

ensure they addressed the issues we

21:59

identified. they told us we

22:01

are assessing new information to

22:03

determine any next steps we

22:05

might take as regulator. Hearing

22:08

Miranda's story has made me

22:10

realize that the search for

22:12

wellness for something spiritual can

22:14

leave people open to abuse.

22:16

But it's also made me

22:19

realize that even with an

22:21

organisation as flawed as Tara

22:23

Yoga Centre, got something good

22:25

out of it, each other.

22:27

How important to you is

22:30

the community that the school

22:32

offers you? That was the

22:34

most important thing for me.

22:36

It mattered so much for

22:38

me to feel connection with

22:41

people outside of what I

22:43

immediately knew as my family,

22:45

what I knew to be

22:47

spiritual. When you practice spirituality,

22:49

you immediately open up a

22:52

field to connect with people

22:54

and commune. That was what

22:56

I was looking for and

22:58

it's what I valued and

23:00

the shared values and building

23:03

friendships on that. Yeah, that

23:05

really mattered. It's really powerful,

23:07

really, really powerful. You're doing

23:09

the meditations, you're doing yoga,

23:11

you're part of the community.

23:14

It's funny, like one of

23:16

my friends from Tara, he

23:18

and I, last year, I

23:20

think both of us are

23:22

really missing it. And so

23:25

we were like, well, why

23:27

don't we just try and

23:29

gather our friends and... Why

23:31

don't we practice yoga together?

23:33

Why don't we do some

23:36

meditation together? It really felt

23:38

like a family. Yeah. It

23:40

would be great if they

23:42

one day saw the light.

23:44

And for Miranda, that chance

23:47

to belong to be part

23:49

of something more than just

23:51

herself turns out it was

23:53

always there. Waiting without judgment

23:55

for Miranda to come home.

23:58

I've done a certain amount

24:00

of Googling as you do,

24:02

so I've got an educated.

24:04

guess as to the stuff

24:06

that went on and my

24:09

heart goes out to you.

24:11

Penny, Miranda's mother, never tried

24:13

to interfere. Miranda's now back

24:15

living in the same county

24:17

as her family in Oxfordshire.

24:20

There's still a lot about

24:22

her experiences she wants to

24:24

explain to Penny. One of

24:26

the reasons why it worked

24:28

so well and has worked

24:31

for so long on so

24:33

many people is that it

24:35

was pretty subtle. It wasn't

24:37

like cult side heard about

24:39

where, you know, they tell

24:42

you to stop seeing your

24:44

family or, you know, to

24:46

stop spending time with your

24:48

friends. They didn't tell that

24:50

to anyone, especially not in

24:53

the beginning. But there was

24:55

talk kind of throughout really

24:57

about spiritual family and birth

24:59

family. and that your spiritual

25:02

family were the people who

25:04

were on the same path

25:06

as you, they understood. So

25:08

there was this idea that

25:10

your spiritual family was possibly

25:13

more important than your birth

25:15

family and they often said

25:17

that there was this this

25:19

phrase that supposedly was from

25:21

GB that... No mother has

25:24

ever become enlightened and they

25:26

use that as a way

25:28

of obviously it's putting women

25:30

and mothers down but they

25:32

also used it as a

25:35

way of discouraging people from

25:37

having their own families and

25:39

discouraging women from having children

25:41

and you know family is

25:43

not a spiritual priority. No.

25:46

Well I think it speaks

25:48

volumes for your skill as

25:50

a communicator and also... your

25:52

wonderful commitment to family that

25:54

you kept that going. I'm

25:57

gonna hazard guess. Which

26:01

is, I don't think,

26:04

they ever quite caught

26:07

all of you. Do

26:09

you think that's right?

26:12

Yeah. Yeah, I think

26:14

that's right. You disappointed

26:17

in me? No. Never.

26:20

The reverse. I'm full

26:22

of admiration for someone

26:25

who can go through

26:27

the experiences you've been

26:30

through. are unspeakably

26:32

difficult to talk about. I

26:35

have nothing but admiration for

26:37

you. To then do what

26:39

you're doing now, to bring

26:42

it into the light and

26:44

almost alcomise some of that

26:46

evil stuff that went on

26:49

and take back the power.

26:51

I think you're meant to

26:53

do that. And again, I

26:56

am just so proud of

26:58

you for doing that. Words

27:00

can't really express how proud

27:03

I am. Thank you so

27:05

much for your support. Well,

27:07

you have it always. You

27:10

know you do. World of

27:12

Secrets, The Bad Guru, is

27:14

a BBT Studio's audio production.

27:17

It's presented by me, Kat

27:19

McShane. And produced by myself

27:21

and Emma Weatherall. Executive Producer

27:24

is In His Bowen. Unit

27:26

Manager is Lucy Bannister. French

27:28

language production Adele Humbare. Sound

27:31

designer is Melvin Riccabe. Development

27:33

producer is Emma Shore. Development

27:35

executive is Anya Saunders. Storytelling

27:38

consultant is Jamie Bartlett. Legal

27:40

advisor, his David Outfield, editorial

27:42

policy advisor is Matthew Eltringham.

27:45

Commissioning executive is Tracy Williams.

27:47

Commissioning editor is Tracy Williams.

27:49

Commissioning editor is Tracy Williams.

27:52

World of of

27:54

Secrets, bad is

27:56

a a BBC production.

27:59

audio production. For years, a

28:01

witness's For years,

28:03

a witness's

28:06

evidence has been

28:08

locked away.

28:10

I've seen the

28:13

dark side. He

28:15

warned a chemical is coming. It's

28:17

a silent killer. a And

28:20

that he was a target. a

28:22

witness a witness protection program. We're Dan

28:24

Ashby and and Lucy Taylor, two

28:26

investigative journalists joined by the

28:28

Hollywood star Michael Sheen. Do you you

28:31

think someone's going to try

28:33

and kill us? to try and

28:35

BBC From BBC an unsettling investigation

28:37

into a chemical secret unravels.

28:39

They don't have any record

28:41

of him. What? him. What? Listen

28:44

now to Barry the witness on

28:46

BBC BBC Sounds.