0:08

Hello, welcome along to a

0:10

brand new episode of Writer's Routine,

0:12

where this week we're chatting to

0:14

Robert Whitlow. Robert has published

0:16

more than 20 novels, mostly

0:18

legal thrillers, which make sense as

0:20

he works as a part -time

0:22

lawyer. We talk about why

0:24

he needs A few goes round

0:27

a couple of drafts to

0:29

properly figure out his main characters.

0:31

Also why he's really quite chilled

0:33

about how he gets the words

0:35

down and you can hear why

0:37

the secret to writing he thinks is

0:40

figuring out how to do

0:42

it best and simply being consistent

0:44

with it. I call it

0:46

your writing bio rhythm. How much

0:48

time in a day can you

0:50

dedicate to the creative process

0:52

and really perform it

0:54

at your highest level of

0:57

capability. Some folks can

0:59

sit in there for

1:01

hours, 10 hours, eight hours,

1:03

and just, you know, make it

1:05

happen. I learned

1:07

pretty early on that

1:10

I am pretty good for

1:12

maybe two hours, two and a half, and

1:15

then I'm kind of

1:17

done. I can still

1:19

work after that, but

1:21

it seems like it

1:23

has a tendency to

1:25

get a little flatter

1:27

it's all on the

1:29

way in a brand

1:31

new episode of writer's

1:33

routine yes welcome along to

1:35

the show My name's Dan

1:37

Simpson, this is Writer's Routine. If you've

1:39

never listened before, thank you for being

1:41

there. It's the podcast where we take

1:43

a look inside an author's working day. If

1:46

you're not following us and

1:48

subscribed to our sub -stack channel

1:50

yet, we're talking

1:52

about seasonal novels, where

1:55

I am in the UK. Well,

1:57

I actually spoke too soon because it's been raining

1:59

a week, but like

2:01

spring instantly sprung. This

2:03

glorious 10 days of glorious sunshine

2:06

appeared from nowhere and it just

2:08

really wanted me to Consume to

2:10

walk through as many like spring -ish

2:12

novels as I could if that

2:14

makes sense and that led us

2:16

to thinking about different seasonal novels

2:18

so As soon as it turns

2:20

to autumn is there something that

2:23

you like to read while it's

2:25

pretty dank and dark drizzly outside

2:27

as it gets to Christmas time

2:29

Is there something you always turn

2:31

back to that ideally you're reading

2:33

in front of a crackling fire?

2:35

That's what I'm talking about and

2:37

I'd love to hear your seasonal

2:40

novels. You can subscribe and let

2:42

me know it's completely free on

2:44

our sub -stack channel. Find the

2:46

link wherever you're listening. Now

2:48

this week we're chatting

2:50

to Robert Whitlow who has

2:52

published over 20 novels

2:54

and in my mind, Robert's

2:56

books are completely associated

2:58

with staying in B &Bs.

3:00

It might sound ridiculous, but

3:02

do you know what

3:05

I mean when you're on

3:07

holiday and there's a

3:09

clubhouse or maybe in reception

3:11

at the B &B whatever

3:13

it is there's a

3:15

there's a bookshelf with the

3:17

most threadbare thumb through

3:19

novels in history and you'll

3:21

always get normally a

3:23

David Baldacci a Dean Koontz

3:25

novel if you're in

3:27

the UK there's probably a

3:29

Jilly Cooper and also That's

3:32

where I see Robert Whitlow novels.

3:35

They're really well regarded like that. There's

3:37

something that you can pick up

3:39

that you just instantly get to terms

3:41

with and they'll give you a

3:43

gripping yarn. And I think that's

3:45

really high praise for fiction. Four

3:47

of his novels have been adapted into

3:50

successful movies, and many of them have

3:52

a theme of faith running through them.

3:54

For that, he's been awarded the prestigious

3:56

Christie Award for Contemporary Fiction. We discuss

3:58

why that's important to him, how forced

4:00

he needs to make it, hopefully not

4:02

that forced at all, how he

4:04

makes it organic, and whether

4:06

he's bothered if... Reading

4:08

a novel really affects someone's

4:10

opinion on religion at

4:13

all. Now his newest book

4:15

is called Guilty Until Innocent,

4:17

a simple and effective premise when

4:19

an old case is reopened,

4:21

two lawyers work to prove someone's

4:23

innocence, even though it's a

4:25

tough sell and the odds are

4:27

stacked against them. We talk

4:30

about how being a lawyer, he

4:32

makes thrillers set in

4:34

a legal world accessible. Is

4:37

it ever hard to kind of keep

4:39

all your knowledge at bay there? Also

4:41

you can hear how he makes the

4:43

protagonist unique and authentic in each book

4:45

when they're all set in similar worlds.

4:48

We chat through why he loves editing

4:50

and why he doesn't really mind how

4:52

many words he gets down as long

4:54

as they're good ones. It's

4:56

all on the way. Let's jump into it with Robert Whitlow

4:58

and we start as we always do with what he

5:00

sees around him in the place where he sits down to

5:02

write. I

5:04

have a dedicated room. In

5:07

our home, we live in

5:09

a older home. Of course, it

5:11

may not be old by

5:13

English standards, but it's

5:15

90 years old. It's kind

5:18

of a federal architecture brick

5:20

home, just a gorgeous spot. And

5:22

we have an upstairs bedroom

5:24

that's no longer in use.

5:26

It used to be actually

5:29

a quilt closet. They

5:31

used to hang quilts

5:33

on the wall of the

5:35

room and now it's

5:37

the spot where I'm set

5:39

up to ride and

5:41

if I open the windows

5:43

I have the view

5:45

of a pretty busy street,

5:48

one of the main thoroughfares of

5:50

Charlotte, North Carolina that goes

5:52

downtown and that's where it happens.

5:55

So you're in the office,

5:57

what was once a quilt closet.

5:59

We can see out your

6:01

window. What is there around

6:03

you that is inspiring? Whenever I

6:06

speak to American authors in particular,

6:08

I will be honest, it's

6:10

always full of stuff. It's full of brick

6:12

-a -brackets, full of totems, mementos

6:14

of places you've been, family pictures.

6:16

There's always so much. Are you the

6:19

same? It's cluttered.

6:21

It's cluttered, Dad. We

6:23

have four children. 11

6:27

grandchildren so there's plenty of

6:29

possibilities for photos but most

6:31

of the ones actually in

6:34

that room are my two

6:36

sons and some of the

6:38

things that we did during

6:40

their growing up time and

6:42

then as adults and I

6:45

have those kind of displayed

6:47

about and I have a

6:49

small built -in bookcase that's

6:51

directly across from where I Where

6:54

I write and that

6:57

is dedicated to books on

6:59

writing primarily You know

7:01

one of the things you

7:03

try to do is

7:05

continually improve your skill and

7:07

So I have you

7:09

know a number of books

7:11

that I have available

7:13

there some I've read more

7:15

than once and things

7:17

I can refer to We

7:23

do, even though it's in the

7:25

city, we do have some

7:27

really nice greenery out the

7:29

front windows. I'm on the second

7:31

level of the home, so

7:33

I have a bit of an

7:35

overview of the greenery out

7:38

front and then the road beyond

7:40

that. So that's kind of

7:42

the surroundings. So with

7:44

the writing books that you've got nearby,

7:46

I mean, you've published over 20 novels

7:48

now. You've sold very well. How

7:50

often is it that

7:52

you're reading something that is actively

7:54

changing the way that you're writing? Or

7:56

is it almost a case of just

7:58

having to, you know, it's always good

8:01

to be reminded of the rules? That's

8:03

the ladder, Dan. It's

8:05

just being reminded of things that I want to

8:07

keep. at the forefront,

8:11

you know, an example would

8:13

be, you know, archetypal

8:15

structure for the characters. I

8:18

like to, you know, be

8:20

reminded of that to, you

8:22

know, I really have found

8:24

that that dynamic helps craft

8:27

characters that have nuance as

8:29

you think about the strengths

8:31

and weaknesses of the archetypes.

8:35

You know, I do have some grammar books

8:37

there. I like to know that when

8:39

I break the rules, it's on purpose, not

8:41

out of ignorance. And

8:44

so I will refer to those. I

8:47

was also quite

8:49

heavily influenced by

8:51

mythic structure, the

8:53

writer's journey, the

8:56

hero with 10

8:58

,000 faces. Of course,

9:00

I'm sure a lot of your listeners are familiar

9:02

with those. While

9:04

I don't necessarily go back to

9:06

that regularly, I do try

9:08

to think about those things regularly.

9:11

And just having those books there is

9:13

just a reminder. You've got

9:15

those books. We've got a few

9:17

photos around us, glorious view out

9:19

the back. What is there that's

9:21

a bit more practical and

9:23

pertains to what you're writing? If

9:25

I were to Drop myself into

9:27

the the old quilt closet midway

9:30

through a draft would I

9:32

see you know Posting notes or

9:34

plot points all around wild mind

9:36

maps and brainstorms that reminds you

9:38

of your plot. Okay, what

9:40

I do you know I am

9:42

a Seed of the pants writer

9:44

I do not operate off a

9:46

detailed outline. However, I do

9:48

have a pretty clear You know

9:51

idea about the beginning and the

9:53

end And then

9:55

the large middle is just

9:57

a voyage of discovery

9:59

that I enter into and

10:01

seek to follow in

10:03

a way that entertains myself

10:05

and then will hopefully

10:07

entertain the readers as well.

10:09

So I do have,

10:11

I'll have a legal pad

10:13

or something like that.

10:15

I'm a lawyer so I

10:17

have those hanging around. I

10:21

will jot down notes to

10:23

myself as ideas occur or as

10:25

I realize, oh, this is

10:27

going to need to be changed

10:29

in edit. So I

10:31

will have a legal pad or

10:33

various sheets of paper just kind

10:36

of haphazardly clumped together in an

10:38

area where I know where they

10:40

are, in which I have

10:42

notes and things that I want to

10:44

make sure I address. I'm right

10:46

now in the First major

10:48

edit of a new novel,

10:50

so I'm referring to

10:52

those notes as I go

10:55

through the manuscript to make

10:57

changes. I absolutely love the

10:59

editing process. It's

11:01

just a fantastic opportunity

11:03

to make something better. And

11:07

that's kind of how I go

11:09

about it. Do you love the initial

11:11

drafting process quite? as much? Or

11:13

is it just a case of kind

11:16

of getting the words out like,

11:18

hoping, praying that you'll be able to

11:20

edit it well later? I

11:22

think it is. It is a

11:24

bit more of a labor with the

11:27

initial draft. However,

11:29

you know, I want to enjoy the

11:31

journey. And so

11:33

I really pretty much

11:35

do and don't have a

11:37

whole lot of problems

11:39

with writer's block. One of

11:41

the things I often do

11:44

is I will stop writing where I still

11:46

have a bit of an idea of

11:48

what's going to happen next so I've got

11:50

a tag to pick up with the

11:52

next time I turn on the computer. But

11:55

it is very satisfying for

11:57

me to have a work in

11:59

progress at least complete in

12:02

the first draft stage so that

12:04

then I can refine it, you

12:07

know, make it better, smooth it out. You

12:10

know, one of my main goals

12:12

in all of that is to

12:14

become invisible so that the reader

12:17

is drawn into the life of

12:19

the characters in the plot. And

12:22

so, you know, they're

12:24

experiencing that without, you know,

12:26

feeling that I'm intruding

12:28

into their experience. I

12:31

don't know the balance

12:33

of your work in

12:35

terms of lawyering and...

12:37

I mean, we'll get to a touch on that in just a second. But

12:40

through your, as I say, 20

12:42

plus novels now, has

12:45

there been like a moment

12:47

where your working space is reflected

12:49

the change in the balance

12:51

of those two careers? I mean,

12:53

would your working space 20

12:55

years ago have been All about

12:58

being a lawyer and then

13:00

gradually the writing has crept more

13:02

in and now that's the

13:04

focus of where you work. The

13:06

big change in that is

13:08

when I first started, I

13:10

did not have a dedicated spot.

13:14

The home was large, it was

13:16

a former bed and breakfast, but

13:19

at that point we still

13:21

had all of our children

13:24

at home and I started

13:26

out just grabbing a spot

13:28

on the sofa in the

13:30

living room. and sitting there

13:32

and writing from that location.

13:35

Then the room I'm using

13:37

now was actually the bedroom

13:39

for our older son. So

13:42

once he moved out

13:44

and went on with his

13:46

life, that's when I

13:49

took over that space and

13:51

created a dedicated spot,

13:53

which is very helpful to

13:55

have because When

13:57

I go in there, I'm

14:00

putting aside hopefully everything else

14:02

that's going on in my

14:04

life, whether it's professionally or

14:06

personally, so I can be

14:08

focused on the writing. One

14:11

thing that all writers

14:13

have to learn is

14:16

what I call your

14:18

writing bio rhythm. What

14:22

I mean by that

14:24

is, you know, how much

14:26

time in a day

14:28

can you dedicate to the

14:30

creative process and really

14:32

perform it at your highest

14:34

level of capability? And

14:37

some folks can sit

14:39

in there for hours,

14:41

10 hours, eight hours

14:43

and just, you

14:45

know, make it happen. I

14:47

learned pretty early on that,

14:49

that I am pretty

14:51

good for maybe two hours, two

14:53

and a half and then

14:55

I'm kind of done. I can

14:57

still work after that but

14:59

it seems like it has a

15:02

tendency to get a little

15:04

flatter so I recognize that dynamic

15:06

during the creative process. Now

15:08

during the editing process I can

15:10

spend more time but still

15:12

the degree of concentration that's required

15:14

is significant for me and

15:17

so I will take frequent breaks

15:19

but That's a huge

15:21

thing to figure out. And then

15:23

you can relax and say, well, that's

15:25

the way I am and not

15:27

try to be somebody that can churn

15:29

out seven or eight thousand words

15:31

a day. We'll come to more

15:33

of the routine in just a second.

15:35

I'd like to touch on what else

15:37

you have learned because I'm aware that

15:39

publishing one book is a battle, but

15:41

you're only halfway there. It takes you

15:43

a long time of doing this before

15:45

you really realize Who

15:47

is you are as a writer and

15:49

what your voice is? What

15:51

do you remember of kind of the

15:53

moment so many novels ago when you

15:56

started to figure out? Oh, okay. I've

15:58

kind of got a handle on this

16:00

now. I understand who I am as a

16:02

writer, how I work best and the

16:04

type of novels that I write best. That

16:07

really happened in the midst

16:09

of the first book. Of

16:11

course, at that point I did not

16:13

have a contract, no deadline. It

16:17

took about two, two and a

16:19

half years to write that novel.

16:21

I was just writing it for

16:23

my wife. I actually had no

16:25

real ambition about being a published

16:27

author. I just had an idea

16:29

and I wrote it for my

16:31

wife who's a huge reader and

16:33

it was great for marital harmony

16:35

to have a book that you

16:37

write for your spouse and then

16:39

dedicate it to her. It

16:42

was amazing. But

16:44

during that process, I

16:46

read a book called

16:49

Self -Editing for Fiction Writers

16:51

by two authors, Brown and

16:53

King. As

16:55

a lawyer, Dan,

16:57

a lot of times you

17:00

have to pretend to be something

17:02

of a pseudo expert in

17:04

different areas when you're involved in

17:06

a case, whether it's some

17:08

aspect of medicine, if you're going

17:10

to be talking to a

17:12

doctor or you know something

17:14

to do with business if

17:16

you're involved in business litigation and

17:18

so what I did is

17:20

I said okay I'm just going

17:22

to try to pretend and

17:24

learn how to be a writer

17:26

and that particular book was

17:28

extremely helpful for me and I

17:31

applied the concepts in it

17:33

to the work in progress in

17:35

the first novel and in

17:37

that I started getting a sense

17:39

of what it means to

17:41

create a novel because before that I would have looked

17:43

at, I would look at a novel and say, how

17:45

does that happen? But that

17:47

gave me some, that book

17:49

gave me some tools that I

17:51

was able to apply to

17:53

what I was doing and it

17:55

was in the midst of

17:57

that that I started realizing, okay,

17:59

I see how this works.

18:01

The other advantage that I think

18:03

I had was I have

18:05

been taken thousands of depositions and

18:08

been in thousands of court

18:10

hearings. And

18:12

that really gives you an ear

18:14

for dialogue. And

18:18

so writing dialogue came

18:20

fairly easily to me which

18:22

was a huge help

18:24

because I understand from other

18:27

writers how that can

18:29

be a struggle. I actually

18:31

had a little bit more trouble with the narrative

18:33

parts. writing that I

18:35

did in the dialogue so it

18:37

was all in that first novel

18:39

I realized hey I can do

18:41

this and it can you know

18:43

it can turn out fine and

18:45

it's kind of like unstopping a

18:47

well after the first novel I

18:49

pretty much started a second one

18:51

pretty soon thereafter and thankfully that

18:53

was in process when I had

18:56

the meeting with the publisher and

18:58

they said yeah we want to What'll

19:00

sound a contract with you? You

19:02

know, do you have something else? And

19:04

I said, yeah, because obviously they

19:06

don't want to just do a one

19:08

-off. They want to have something they

19:10

can build you mentioned that you

19:12

Struggle more with the narrative sections of

19:14

your novels when you realize that

19:16

Clearly trying to learn particularly early on

19:18

What were you doing to to

19:20

to make that easier to make yourself

19:22

better at doing that? How were

19:24

you learning how to improve? What

19:27

I did is, of course,

19:29

I embraced the whole concept of

19:31

show not tell. And

19:34

that's obviously something when

19:36

I'm reviewing something as

19:38

a favor for somebody

19:40

that's a new author,

19:42

new writer, is

19:45

resisting that

19:47

urge. And

19:49

so my narrative sections,

19:51

I started making

19:53

them shorter. because

19:56

I wanted to be able

19:58

to show what was taking

20:01

place rather than just telling

20:03

it and by shortening those

20:05

narrative sections I was better

20:07

able to handle that aspect

20:09

of the process and I

20:11

think it did help me

20:13

become a better writer at

20:15

the same time. So making

20:17

it more bite -size just

20:19

is more manageable. We get

20:21

quite niche and nerdy in

20:23

this, Robert. We're very into tech.

20:25

So can you just run us through,

20:27

like, what software you use to write with,

20:29

and I guess most importantly, what typeface

20:32

do you prefer? What's your font of choice?

20:34

Yes, I use Times New Roman.

20:40

You know, usually 14 at

20:42

one a half spacing. I'm

20:45

70 years old. I don't look it.

20:47

I know we're not... live video, but

20:49

I don't look 70, but I am

20:51

70, so I've got reading glasses. But

20:54

I use, you know,

20:56

Microsoft Word. I've

20:59

tried some of the,

21:01

you know, dipped

21:03

my toe in the water for

21:05

some of the specific writing

21:07

softwares, like Scrivener

21:09

is one, and

21:11

it just never

21:13

really suited me.

21:17

I'm just straight up

21:19

word doc. I do

21:21

have a separate file

21:23

for the characters in every

21:25

novel. So I will have

21:27

a list of the characters,

21:29

their names, something

21:32

about their physical attributes,

21:35

a little bit of their backstory in

21:37

a separate file that helps me

21:40

keep folks straight. But

21:43

that's pretty much

21:45

it. I

21:47

carry a lot of it around in

21:49

my head. At

21:52

times I have, a

21:55

number of novels, I

21:57

would do a summary on a

21:59

separate document of each chapter. That's

22:02

a pretty good idea. I

22:04

probably should do that more, but

22:06

I haven't done that the last

22:08

few novels, but I have also done

22:10

that in the past where I

22:12

would have a short paragraph summary Once

22:14

I finish a chapter, what took

22:16

place in that chapter? Typically, my

22:19

chapters are

22:21

between 22 and

22:24

3200 words. You

22:27

know, chapters have gotten shorter

22:29

over the years. I think it

22:32

probably is related to people's

22:34

attention span between commercial breaks. Just

22:37

one second there, Rob, but I

22:39

was chatting to another author recently who

22:41

also writes kind of legally crime

22:43

thrillers who was discussing about a tension

22:45

span. How

22:48

do you know to make them

22:50

shorter? Are you being told that? Is

22:52

that coming back and editing feedback

22:54

that, you know, maybe this is a

22:56

bit long and you should cut

22:58

it down and it's progressively got shorter

23:00

and shorter and shorter? Is that

23:03

just something that you are picking up

23:05

yourself? It's myself. You

23:08

know, it's something that I

23:10

just decided would work and it seems

23:12

to have worked and I know other

23:14

people do it. So

23:17

yeah, there was no pressure

23:19

from the publisher to do that.

23:21

The other thing I want

23:23

to make sure I get out

23:25

there that has been so

23:27

helpful and hopefully will be a

23:29

benefit to your listeners is

23:31

I really had a transformational input

23:35

from a seminar

23:37

that I went to

23:39

that was led

23:41

by a gentleman named

23:44

Donald Moss, M

23:46

-A -A -S -S, I believe he's

23:48

a New York editor, agent,

23:51

and I think he's also an

23:53

author. And

23:55

this is something I kind

23:57

of inherently knew But

23:59

he brought it to the

24:01

surface in a way that I could cooperate

24:03

with it intentionally. And

24:05

that is the necessity

24:07

for micro tension. And

24:10

that plays into

24:12

the chapter length of

24:14

every scene. I

24:16

endeavor to have

24:18

some level of micro

24:20

tension of some

24:22

level of conflict question.

24:27

It can even be related to humor. You

24:30

have the overarching tension of

24:32

the main plot, but

24:34

to get the readers to

24:37

not skim and to want

24:39

to turn the page, I

24:42

really intentionally work

24:44

on creating micro tension

24:46

in virtually every

24:48

scene. It could be

24:50

something, you know,

24:52

as it could be benign, it could

24:54

be a small misunderstanding. It

24:57

can be a interpretation of

24:59

something that's going on that might

25:01

be a bit different. But

25:04

that is and a lot of

25:06

times I will end a chapter with

25:08

a perhaps slightly heightened level of

25:10

microtension so that the reader would say,

25:13

I was going to go to

25:15

bed after that chapter, but I got

25:17

to step and read another one. How

25:20

worried do you

25:22

get then that They

25:25

can all be organic like if you

25:27

know in every chapter there needs to

25:29

be a Little tension there needs to

25:31

be something just to just to keep

25:33

us wondering to keep us asking questions

25:35

and to keep us reading Surely sometimes

25:37

That can't all be organic. Do you

25:39

ever worry that those micro tensions can

25:42

feel a bit forced simply because you

25:44

need them in there? You have to

25:46

be very careful with that because once

25:48

again that would defeat the purpose of

25:50

becoming invisible and

25:53

caused the reader to say, okay, you

25:55

know, the author's just messing with

25:58

me now. So all

26:00

of those things have to be, they

26:03

have to be, you know,

26:05

with a certain, with credibility. So

26:08

the characters have to be

26:10

willing to carry what's taking

26:12

place and you've either set

26:15

that up in the dynamic

26:17

of who the character is,

26:19

what their problems, what their

26:21

issues are. So,

26:24

yes, you'd really have to be careful

26:27

with that, that it

26:29

doesn't come across as forced

26:31

or fake. You

26:33

know, whether I succeed or not,

26:35

obviously, is up to the reader, but

26:37

you are 100 % right that that

26:39

has to be handled, you

26:41

know, has to be handled carefully.

26:45

I work part -time as an attorney

26:47

now, but I come to the office

26:49

almost every day in the mornings. I

26:52

usually wait till after the rush hour

26:54

traffic started down and then I come in,

26:56

like I'm in my office right now

26:58

talking to you today. It's, you know, it's

27:00

1026 on a Friday morning. And

27:03

I will be here probably

27:05

through lunch. One of my

27:07

main goals is to have

27:09

lunch with one of my

27:11

buddies. You know,

27:14

I like to socialize like

27:16

that. And then when I

27:18

do go home this afternoon,

27:22

It's not unusual for me

27:24

to have a one to

27:26

one and a half hour

27:29

writing session this afternoon in

27:31

the afternoons before supper and

27:33

then after supper I will

27:35

often have another session for

27:37

an hour and a half

27:39

to two hours That's a

27:41

good day My goal is

27:44

to try to write a

27:46

thousand words a day I

27:48

want them to be good words.

27:50

If there's only 500 words, but they're

27:52

good ones, then I'm satisfied. If

27:55

my wife says, hey, we

27:57

need to go to the store and

27:59

get something for the house, then

28:01

I'm relaxed about that. I don't say,

28:03

oh, I can't write. I can't

28:05

go with you. I can't help you.

28:07

I try to keep that all

28:09

balanced properly for marital harmony and just

28:12

you know, just to correct perspective. So

28:15

I've, you know, a typical

28:17

good day, I'll have two sessions

28:19

like that where I have,

28:21

you know, been able to produce

28:23

something on the weekends. If

28:25

we're not busy on a Saturday, it might be a little

28:27

bit longer, but

28:29

sometimes, you know, it

28:31

might, I might have to

28:33

skip a weekend if we

28:36

have something planned. The key

28:38

to it is diligently continuing

28:40

and not allowing long gaps

28:42

of inactivity. I've

28:45

heard it said that you're only a writer on the

28:47

days you write. So

28:49

I am very, and

28:51

my wife is great

28:53

about protecting my privacy

28:55

time to be able

28:57

to do it regularly

28:59

because it's a big

29:01

project. My novels typically

29:03

are 110 to 125

29:05

,000 words. You

29:08

know what to create something that the reader wants

29:10

to live in for a while and so. That's

29:14

that's doing it regularly even

29:16

if it's in smaller increments of

29:18

time. It works it

29:20

works. You said that you want those

29:22

words to be good first time round

29:24

how much better are you now at

29:27

kind of spotting whether they are good

29:29

or not. I know you love editing

29:31

but it's a waste of time if

29:33

you have to constantly delete things. Yeah

29:35

that's. That is

29:37

painful, but yes, I am

29:39

much better at that.

29:41

When I was riding my

29:43

first novel, I

29:46

was maybe 12, 14 chapters

29:49

in. I was taking

29:51

one of my daughters that's time to,

29:53

she was riding horses. I

29:55

took her to the horse farm and

29:57

was going to work in the car. I

29:59

spilled a drink on my laptop

30:01

and fried it. But I had everything

30:03

printed out. This is back in

30:06

the 90s. And I didn't work

30:08

on it for a while after that

30:10

when I didn't have the laptop for

30:12

a season. And when I picked

30:14

it up and looked at the pages I'd written,

30:17

there were like 12, 13 chapters. It

30:20

was really, really bad,

30:22

except for one chapter.

30:25

And that chapter was good. And

30:27

that was enough. than to

30:30

just say, okay, this is

30:32

worth picking up and continuing.

30:35

So, you know, that's,

30:37

thankfully I'm not at

30:39

that level anymore, but

30:41

you do have to

30:43

be, you can't fall in

30:46

love with your work too much to not be

30:48

willing to cut it to make it better, if

30:50

that makes sense, of course. So,

30:53

you know, the novel that I'm working

30:55

on right now, I

30:57

would not be surprised if

30:59

I'm right at 120 ,000 words. I

31:02

won't be surprised if I have

31:04

to cut 10 and maybe add

31:06

three in the major editing process,

31:08

but that's not too much waste

31:10

and I'm good with that. How

31:13

much does one affect the other? You

31:17

work part -time as an attorney,

31:19

you're there in the mornings. Do

31:22

you find yourself holding stuff

31:24

back because you know you've got

31:27

a thousand words to try and write in

31:29

the afternoon, the prospect of those words

31:31

must be a looming specter at times. Well,

31:35

thankfully, not so much. I'm

31:40

sure you've heard this. Once

31:42

you start down this writing

31:44

road, it

31:46

has to come from

31:48

this intrinsic inner place that

31:50

if you're not writing,

31:52

it's like something's not the

31:55

way it should be in

31:57

my life and so I've had

31:59

very limited times in the

32:02

past 25 years well now it's

32:04

almost because I started in

32:06

96 you know we're coming up

32:08

on to 30 years I've

32:10

had very limited times when I

32:12

wasn't writing so it doesn't

32:15

loom over me as a burden

32:17

it's more like I can't

32:19

wait to you know I'm looking

32:21

forward to getting into this

32:23

and and seeing what happens and

32:26

wanting to, you know, create

32:28

characters that are interesting enough to me

32:30

that they can hold my attention

32:32

because hopefully that'll be the case then

32:34

for readers. So thankfully that's not

32:36

been a big problem. I'm able to,

32:38

you know, segment my life in

32:40

a way to be able to do

32:42

the things that, you know, all

32:44

aspects of it. Because you are

32:46

a pancer of a writer, is there

32:48

anything that you do to to kind

32:51

of make it easier for you to

32:53

drop back into after a busy morning

32:55

being an attorney. Is there anything

32:57

you do to kind of just help yourself

32:59

jump straight back into the story when you

33:01

sit there, when you've got a limited time

33:03

in the afternoon to play with? Well,

33:05

I might play a game of

33:07

Wordle, just to kind of clear

33:09

the break a little bit. But,

33:13

you know, it

33:15

will, you know, I'll look

33:17

back over just a little bit of what I may

33:19

have written the previous day. And

33:21

sometimes I will, I didn't mention

33:24

this earlier, you know, I mentioned having

33:26

the tag. Sometimes I will have

33:28

a line or two of, you know,

33:30

what might be happening next. And

33:32

so I'll review that thing. Oh yeah, I

33:34

remember that now. And that kind of puts

33:36

me back in the flow. You

33:39

seem quite relaxed about the whole

33:41

thing. You don't mind if you get

33:43

dragged off to go shopping or

33:45

maybe your afternoon of writing gets slightly

33:47

interfered with. That surely can't be

33:49

the case, the whole thing. There are

33:51

deadlines that you need to hear.

33:53

How often do you find yourself getting

33:55

a bit stressed and having to

33:57

work frantically with the whole thing? Well,

34:03

I've been with the same

34:05

publishing company my entire career,

34:07

so they understand my

34:10

process and one of the

34:13

things that they have incorporated

34:15

to kind of help limit

34:17

that is I do request

34:19

and receive extra time in

34:21

the editing process. So

34:25

if they didn't give me that

34:27

then I would probably be pretty frantic.

34:30

I would be frustrated because

34:32

I wouldn't be able to

34:34

have the time to think

34:36

through things in editing that You

34:39

know would make the make the

34:41

novel better, but thankfully my publisher

34:43

knows my you know my You

34:45

know my how I operate and

34:47

so they they do grant me

34:49

the extra time to help avoid

34:51

that from happening if they did

34:53

it It would be it would

34:55

create the kind of scenario. You

34:57

just described a kind of frantic

34:59

You know not been able. Oh,

35:01

I don't want to change this

35:03

so I have time to work

35:05

on that So, you know,

35:07

that's not had not been part of

35:09

my process just because of their their

35:11

understanding you seem to have the the

35:14

knowledge of the process at the very

35:16

least pretty dead on More than 20

35:18

novels in does does it get any

35:20

easier? Did you still you know halfway

35:22

through are you like I don't think

35:24

this is ever gonna get done No,

35:26

I don't really think that I

35:31

hope that does discourage somebody out

35:33

there that feels that way because

35:35

there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

35:39

I will say that

35:41

I've had, I'm thinking

35:43

of one novel in

35:45

particular that involved a

35:47

theft of some artwork

35:49

from Italy at the

35:51

end of World War

35:53

II. And I

35:55

remember as I got toward the

35:57

end of that, novel,

36:01

I had so many loose

36:03

ends and trying to

36:05

connect things, I did

36:07

feel a bit overwhelmed on that

36:09

particular book. And

36:12

it did take

36:14

extra effort to kind

36:16

of step back

36:18

and reorient, restructure

36:21

some things. That

36:23

was kind of the exception,

36:25

not the norm, but I

36:27

have certainly did experience it.

36:29

with that particular novel and

36:31

I think it worked out

36:33

fine in the end or

36:35

at least I haven't gotten

36:37

feedback that it didn't but

36:39

you know if you run

36:41

into that kind of a

36:43

cul -de -sac then there's no

36:45

shame in taking two steps

36:48

back or five steps back

36:50

and saying okay some of

36:52

this is just not working Let's

36:56

just start fixing it one brick at a

36:58

time. You've said how

37:00

much you enjoy the editing and that

37:02

you're a writer who is always seeking to

37:04

improve, too. Throughout

37:06

the editing that you've done

37:08

on books, I wonder, is

37:11

there something that you pick

37:14

up on that you always tend

37:16

to do that needs to

37:18

be fixed? Is there a part

37:20

of your writing that you

37:22

would like to improve on? Yes,

37:24

that would be... my main

37:26

characters don't have the vibrancy. I'm

37:29

talking about the main character

37:31

probably, you know, a lot of

37:33

times you'll have two main

37:35

characters in a book and one

37:37

or one of those characters

37:39

is a little because a lot

37:41

of times those characters kind

37:44

of an every man type individual

37:46

and a lot of times

37:48

those characters need something to ramp

37:50

up. who they are and

37:52

what they're about. I

37:54

don't have that problem with my

37:56

supporting cast. You

37:59

know, you're able to

38:01

give them, you know, some

38:03

quirky tendencies or something

38:05

that makes them vibrant, but

38:07

it is very common

38:09

for my editorial feedback to

38:12

say you need to

38:14

do some work with main

38:16

character X and just

38:18

increase, you know, the revelation

38:20

of who they are, what they're dealing

38:22

with, what their challenges are,

38:24

what their strengths, what their weaknesses are. That

38:28

is a common aspect.

38:31

You asked me about, what have

38:33

I done to fix it? Well, I try to

38:35

fix it, but I still get the feedback. So

38:37

I guess I'm still, I'm still a work in

38:39

progress. Why do you think that

38:41

is? If you know it, and you know, it's

38:43

your main character, right? So you're spending the most

38:45

amount of time with them. Why

38:48

do you think it is that You

38:50

still don't quite nail maybe all aspects

38:52

of them first time around. You know

38:54

I think there may be a personal

38:56

aspect of that is that my own

38:58

life. Is it's not

39:00

filled with murder and

39:02

mayhem and and I

39:04

influence the main characters

39:06

deeply. I

39:09

think it's maybe a bit

39:11

of self reflection of I have

39:13

wondered about that and. I'll

39:17

be interested in the

39:19

book I'm just now finishing

39:21

if I get that

39:23

same feedback because I told

39:25

one of the main

39:28

characters of this book, it

39:30

won't be out until

39:32

next year, but is in

39:34

the Federal Witness Protection

39:36

Program and when somebody is

39:38

given a new identity

39:40

because they testify in a

39:42

major criminal investigation. And

39:44

I have noticed that this

39:47

character there is so much

39:49

tension inherent in that aspect

39:51

of who he is and

39:53

the potential for that being

39:55

no longer being secret that

39:57

I think it's going to

40:00

help it be avoid that

40:02

problem I just identified. So

40:04

we'll see. We're

40:06

back with more from Robert and just a

40:08

tick if you're enjoying the show There

40:10

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40:12

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40:34

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40:40

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41:01

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or wherever you're listening. Let's get back

41:36

to it with Robert Whitlow then chatting

41:38

about his new gripping legal drama, Guilty

41:40

Until Innocent, which at the very

41:42

least is a brilliant attention -grabbing name,

41:45

come on. You can hear why he

41:47

loves writing characters and what he

41:49

does to make them different when they're

41:51

all existing in a similar world.

41:53

Also, we run through how he wrestles

41:55

those characters back to his idea

41:57

when they might want to go their

42:00

own way. And I mentioned The

42:02

idea of faith. It's important to

42:04

him that it plays a part. But

42:07

how organic can that theming

42:09

really be? Is it

42:11

forced at all? That's where we

42:13

jump back into it with Robert. That

42:16

is super important. And,

42:19

you know, the

42:21

recognition of that and

42:23

the ability to

42:26

do that is really

42:28

fundamental to to

42:30

what I'm about. Part

42:33

of my, you

42:35

know, novels are

42:37

reflections of life

42:39

in, you know,

42:41

compressed and compressed

42:43

manner. And,

42:46

you know, this is an

42:48

aspect of life for a lot,

42:50

a lot of people. And,

42:52

you know, readers, whether they have

42:54

religious interests or not, you

42:56

know, they're often They're intrigued

42:58

by, well, this is how somebody

43:01

like this might navigate this

43:03

particular aspect or circumstance of life,

43:05

just like, you know, throwing

43:07

open the window to what it's

43:09

like to be a lawyer

43:11

because there was an attorney basically

43:13

in every novel I've written. So,

43:17

you know, I have a basic

43:19

belief that God is real and wants

43:21

to be involved in the whole

43:23

scope of life. That's it. And

43:26

so with that

43:28

as kind of

43:30

an overarching framework, then

43:33

spiritual dynamics take

43:35

place at varying various

43:37

levels within the

43:39

life of the characters,

43:42

much of which takes place outside the

43:44

walls of a church, which

43:47

I enjoy doing that because,

43:50

you know, I think it is God

43:52

wants to interact across the whole scope

43:54

of life. So the One

43:56

of the things you have to be acutely

43:58

aware of if you're going to have

44:00

something like that or anybody with any kind

44:02

of a strong belief system, whether

44:05

they're an environmentalist

44:07

or whatever it might

44:09

be, you

44:11

have to develop characters

44:13

that can carry the

44:15

weight of who they

44:18

are in that aspect

44:20

of their personality and

44:22

their belief and their

44:24

conduct. because,

44:27

you know, for me, I

44:30

want to avoid what I

44:32

would call a crusader novel

44:34

where, you know, the story

44:36

is just an excuse to

44:38

preach a sermon. I

44:41

want the characters to be able

44:43

to, you know, display

44:46

and demonstrate what they

44:48

think and what they

44:50

believe in a way

44:52

that is credible because of that's

44:55

who they are. And

44:57

sometimes, obviously, I don't agree

45:00

with everything my characters say,

45:02

which is a little bit

45:04

humorous, Dan, because I will

45:06

get emails from people criticizing

45:08

a character's some aspect of

45:10

maybe their belief system. And

45:12

I think that might be

45:14

a legitimate observation. I

45:17

don't do all that a lot. A lot of

45:19

times, I just let the characters They

45:21

do reflect something that I

45:23

think is possible and within

45:25

the realm of possibility for

45:27

them in that context. So

45:30

it is a fun way

45:32

to explore that aspect of

45:34

life and its influence. And

45:37

I must admit, I've had characters

45:39

that I have thought to myself, I

45:41

wish I were more like this

45:43

person. Are

45:45

you bothered at all, Robert? Bye.

45:49

Whether or not your novels

45:51

affect someone's opinion on

45:54

faith come the end. Like,

45:56

is it ideal that someone reads a

45:58

book and thinks, oh, you know what,

46:00

I wasn't convinced, but now this might

46:02

be for me. Or are you bothered

46:04

if they're like, you know what, it

46:06

definitely ain't for me. Does that kind

46:08

of factor into your thinking at all?

46:10

It doesn't affect my creative process. I

46:12

mean, I'm interested in it. You

46:15

know, if I get feedback. You

46:18

know, I and I respect what people

46:20

say. You know, I'm happy if they

46:22

buy the book, you know. So

46:25

that's a positive. But

46:27

yes, I'm not saying I would

46:29

definitely say that I desire to

46:31

influence people in a positive

46:33

direction. And if that takes

46:35

place, that is that's a home run.

46:39

And I am very glad to

46:41

receive feedback that that has

46:43

taken place. You

46:46

know if if somebody says

46:48

nope, this is not for

46:50

me then you know, that's

46:52

you know, I respect their

46:54

their perspective on it and

46:57

You know, I'm just doing

46:59

what I do The I

47:01

don't read a lot of

47:03

reviews The You know, I'll

47:05

read professional reviews. I'm talking

47:08

about things that just appear

47:10

on the internet or on

47:12

the purchase

47:14

sites you know every so often

47:16

I will glance and if somebody

47:18

you know may point out a

47:20

something that was they thought was

47:22

a weakness in a story then

47:24

I'll definitely take note of that

47:27

to try to do better but

47:29

I do care what people you

47:31

know that people might be influenced

47:33

in a positive way I deeply

47:35

care that that would take place

47:37

and I rejoice when it does

47:39

but I'm also very aware of

47:42

the need to handle this sort

47:44

of thing in a way

47:46

I described where I'm not preaching

47:48

a sermon but telling a

47:50

story. The new novel, Robert, is

47:52

guilty until innocent. Just to

47:54

describe what you remember about the

47:56

first moment that the idea

47:58

for this story came into your

48:00

head. What was the seed

48:02

that presented itself? Yeah, the title

48:04

gives it away a bit

48:06

because it's about a man who

48:08

has been wrongfully accused and

48:10

is spit. you know, over

48:12

25 years in prison. So, you

48:15

know, that's

48:17

an inherently

48:19

dramatic circumstance.

48:22

And in the story,

48:25

the man actually, you

48:27

know, after he heard the evidence, he actually

48:29

believes he did commit the crime. So,

48:33

the reader has to

48:35

go along the journey of

48:37

that whole process, but

48:40

it really started with that.

48:42

uh and so we

48:44

follow that character and uh

48:46

who has and one

48:48

of the things that I

48:51

enjoyed about it was

48:53

he's actually built a legitimate

48:55

meaningful existence within prison

48:57

uh he's not just there

49:00

you know knowing at

49:02

the bars you know he

49:04

has uh created something

49:06

with his influence that is

49:09

admirable. And

49:11

so I really enjoyed

49:13

portraying that aspect of

49:15

who he is, who

49:17

he has become. And

49:20

the other main character is

49:22

a young lawyer who has failed

49:24

at two firms and has

49:26

now been hired by a distant

49:28

relative and who is the

49:31

kind of lawyer that takes just

49:33

about anything that walks through

49:35

the door. And

49:37

he is

49:40

retained to try to see if he

49:42

can get this gentleman out of prison after

49:44

all these years have passed. So

49:47

this is, you know, he's a young

49:49

man who has, you

49:51

know, not been

49:53

successful, but yet he's, and

49:55

then he's thrust upon this impossible

49:57

situation. And

49:59

then in the midst of that, a bunch of

50:01

stuff happens. You've said that you're not a plotter at

50:04

all. You have the beginning, you have the end. You

50:06

have that initial what if of an idea.

50:10

Very simply, what happens next? How

50:12

are you generating a plot

50:14

to start your novel from that

50:16

idea of, okay, what

50:18

happens if you're automatically guilty unless

50:20

you're proven innocent? Yeah.

50:22

Well, what you do

50:24

at that point

50:27

is then it's all

50:29

about building the

50:31

characters and creating who

50:33

they are. what

50:36

they're about, what

50:38

their challenges are, what

50:41

is their level of involvement

50:43

in the main plot issue.

50:47

So then, and I

50:49

absolutely love, I

50:51

said I loved editing, I

50:53

also love characters, getting

50:55

to know the characters. And,

50:58

you know, on occasion they

51:00

will have their inspiration from

51:02

people I know, but

51:04

they always, of course, take on

51:06

a life of their own. Sometimes

51:08

they're just the product of, you

51:10

know, just imagination. But that's what

51:12

I do is I am then

51:14

realizing, okay, this is kind of

51:16

what's going on. Let's meet these

51:18

characters and try to, you know,

51:20

find out, make them the most

51:22

interesting people they can be to

51:24

be involved in this process. So

51:26

that's what I'm about. And then

51:28

doing that with all the Hopefully,

51:31

with the subtleties of the

51:33

tension aspects that I described

51:35

earlier. So that's what I

51:37

did in this novel. I

51:40

have my guy in prison. I

51:42

surround him with people that

51:44

some like him, some don't like

51:46

him. There's threats here. There's

51:48

security there. There's a relationship with

51:50

a warden. There's

51:53

even interaction that he has with

51:56

a woman that works in the prison

51:58

office. They're the

52:00

people that he works with in his

52:02

work crew. You know,

52:04

all these, I just put him in this

52:06

whole prison world, which I am familiar

52:08

with. I've been in prison to see prisoners.

52:12

This is more of a work camp,

52:14

a little bit of a higher

52:16

security work camp, but that's where he

52:18

is. So that's kind of what

52:20

I did with that. And with the

52:22

lawyer, that's a little bit easier.

52:24

I just put him in the law

52:26

office, which obviously that's an environment

52:28

I know quite well. Well, just on

52:30

that, I mean, you've said about

52:32

the struggles that you sometimes feel with

52:34

characterization, even though that

52:36

you love it. And when you're

52:38

writing novels that there are a similar

52:40

theme, there are some similar angles

52:43

to a lot of them in that

52:45

there are like legal tangles. What

52:47

are you doing to ensure

52:49

that your characters are quite authentically

52:51

and substantially different book to

52:53

book? Well,

52:56

there are, that's

52:59

an excellent question. And

53:01

there are commonalities, even though

53:03

I've not written a bunch of

53:05

long series books, there

53:08

are commonalities just because of the nature

53:10

of the legal profession. But

53:12

you put them, one way

53:14

you do that is you put

53:17

them in different legal environments. Sometimes

53:19

it's a small firm which is

53:21

totally different from a big firm.

53:24

They might be in an international law firm. They

53:26

might be in, know,

53:29

I wrote some books

53:31

for somebody, a character, a

53:33

female attorney that was

53:35

a Palestinian Israeli Arab and

53:37

she was working for

53:39

a law firm in Atlanta,

53:41

Georgia. So, you

53:43

know, that's obviously going to be

53:45

different than the lawyer in the

53:47

Guilty Until Innocent book who's in

53:49

a small North Carolina town. So

53:51

that helps avoid you

53:54

know, cookie cutter,

53:56

you know, scenarios. The

53:58

other thing is, I

54:01

mean, every single person is

54:03

a unique individual. Every snowflake's different,

54:05

every zebra's different, every person's

54:07

different. I mean, if you

54:09

and I weren't doing this podcast and

54:11

we were in a car going somewhere on

54:14

a trip, by

54:16

the, if we had a three hour trip, by the

54:18

time we got there, I would know as much about

54:20

you as you were willing to tell me. I'm

54:22

just absolutely fascinated by people

54:24

and their stories. And

54:26

your story will be so different from anything

54:29

that I've ever heard. And

54:31

so it's certainly possible

54:33

to populate novels with people

54:35

that are different because

54:37

that's just the way people

54:39

are. Now, there

54:42

will be similarities as well,

54:44

but as long as

54:46

you're willing to ask the

54:48

questions You know what

54:50

why you know questions about the

54:52

person the character of the plot

54:54

then so far I haven't had

54:56

any complaints about there's a sameness

54:58

to what you're producing. I

55:00

think my last question you said that you start

55:03

with the beginning and also an idea of

55:05

the ending. But one of

55:07

the things that even I know about

55:09

characters is they will tend to do

55:11

their own thing how often do you

55:13

find yourself having to to wrestle your

55:15

characters back to an ending that you

55:17

had originally imagined. Yeah,

55:19

that is definitely

55:21

an accurate representation. I

55:26

respect what the characters

55:28

are doing. I realize

55:30

these are made up, but

55:32

they have to become sufficiently

55:34

real within my mind to

55:36

live on the pages. And

55:39

so, if they go

55:41

off in a direction

55:46

I will not summarily dismiss

55:48

that. I will, like

55:50

you said, wrestle with it

55:52

and decide what's the best. In

55:55

Guilty Until Innocent,

55:58

I reserved judgment on

56:00

some of the primary

56:02

antagonists to quite deep

56:05

because I wanted the

56:07

uncertainty that existed within

56:09

my mind to be

56:11

reflected on the page

56:14

so as not to

56:16

give too many clues

56:18

that, you know, it

56:20

would be, oh, oh,

56:22

okay, ho hum, I

56:25

knew that was the

56:27

case. So even though

56:29

I kind of know the end,

56:31

sometimes the exact mechanism I keep

56:33

uncertain, if that makes

56:35

sense to, so that I can, you

56:38

know, communicate in

56:40

a way that is

56:42

genuinely suspenseful. And

56:46

that is it for this week's

56:48

Writers' Routine. Thank you so much to

56:50

Robert Whitlow for coming on the show.

56:52

The new novel is guilty until innocent.

56:55

You can get a copy now. Use

56:57

the link in the episode notes for

56:59

our bookshop .org page. That way a

57:01

bit comes to me and the podcast

57:03

and you can also support your local

57:05

independent bookshop by buying it over there

57:08

too. Also, you can check out

57:10

ways to support us on Patreon and Ko

57:12

-Fi. Make sure that you subscribe to my

57:14

sub -stack page. You're getting more or less

57:16

a weekly news letter and this week

57:18

we're still talking about seasonal reads and it

57:20

just gives you a little insight behind

57:22

the curtain into the world of the podcast.

57:25

Now I will see you next week with

57:27

a brand new guest on the show.

57:29

If you're celebrating have a fantastic Easter and

57:31

until then enjoy yourself. Thank you for listening.