0:00

Hello, welcome along to

0:02

a brand new episode

0:05

of Riter's Routine. The

0:07

show that takes a

0:09

look inside an author's

0:11

working day to see

0:14

how they get everything

0:16

done this week, we

0:18

chat to Rosaria Georgi.

0:20

Her new novel is

0:22

The Less Unkind, and

0:24

the story behind the

0:26

story is utterly compelling.

0:28

It starts when Rosaria

0:30

began working a part-time

0:32

job for someone that

0:34

she thought was an

0:36

antique dealer. He was a

0:39

famous hitman and one of

0:41

the legends of the Cold

0:43

War. The umbrella sassiness had

0:46

gained his moniker because of

0:48

his weapon of choice. which

0:51

was a poison

0:53

tip umbrella. And

0:55

in 1978, the

0:58

most infamous case

1:00

was in London.

1:02

A Bulgarian dissident

1:05

writer, George Markov,

1:07

was on Waterloo

1:09

Bridge. waiting to take

1:11

a bus to his job at

1:13

the BBC. And while he was

1:16

waiting, a stranger bumped into him,

1:18

he felt a pain in his

1:21

leg. And Markov described it later

1:23

to some colleagues, as if a

1:25

bee had stung him. Also,

1:27

you can hear why, for

1:29

her, trying to wrestle down

1:32

a plot is like some

1:34

majestic creature doing whatever it

1:36

wants. I would compare my

1:38

plot. to those flocks of birds

1:41

in the sky and they

1:43

suddenly swarm and move somewhere

1:45

else and that's how my

1:47

story evolves. It suddenly

1:49

shifts and takes all the

1:51

players, the characters, the plots,

1:54

me with it in a

1:56

different direction. It's all on

1:58

the way with a result. Georgie

2:01

in a brand new episode of writers

2:03

routine. Yes, welcome along to the show.

2:05

My name is Stan Simpson, this is

2:08

writers routine. If you're just joining us,

2:10

this is a podcast, we take a

2:12

look inside an author's working day. We

2:15

see how, where, and when they get

2:17

the work done. What do they do?

2:19

for their day to give them the

2:22

best chance of getting the words out

2:24

there. Now you can get more or

2:26

less weekly updates on whatever is happening

2:29

on the show over on our sub

2:31

stack page. The link is in the

2:33

episode notes. There you'll get a newsletter.

2:36

more or less every Friday, giving

2:38

myself a little bit of breathing room

2:40

there with the more or less. Behind

2:42

the scenes news, bits on guests that

2:45

are coming up, recommendations, and also my

2:47

irritation with the lack of culture

2:49

on London's underground network. That was last

2:51

week's, if you miss it. I don't

2:54

think I went off on Iran. It

2:56

was like a little bit of news

2:58

had come to me. and it

3:00

like about a minute before I started

3:03

writing the newsletter and it immediately bothered

3:05

me and I just kind of had

3:07

to get it out and if you've

3:10

not read that I'd love to

3:12

know what you think actually so do

3:14

subscribe to the sub stack it's absolutely

3:16

free as I say the link is

3:19

in the episode notes or wherever you're

3:21

listening now this week we're joined by

3:23

Rosaria Georgi who has lived some life

3:26

by the way being born in

3:28

Italy you know tiny village in Tuscany

3:30

then living in Denmark in Ireland and

3:32

now in Canada and we discuss how

3:35

place affects what you write what you're

3:37

inspired by how you write it

3:39

does it influence your style at all

3:41

picking things up perhaps like a vulture

3:44

from everywhere that you kind of lay

3:46

your hat for a little while Now

3:48

the less unkind Rosaria's new novel

3:50

is the start of a series featuring

3:53

Pico, a young woman in a new

3:55

place for the first time, forging new

3:57

relationships, just like Rosaria, who gets mixed

4:00

up in something very... peculiar and

4:02

not altogether benevolent just like Rosaria. It's

4:04

inspired by her past as you might

4:06

have gathered they do say right what

4:09

you know where Rosaria got a job

4:11

in an antique dealership for someone who

4:13

turned out to be the umbrella assassin.

4:16

If you've never heard that story

4:18

by the way do have a look

4:20

online it's like bewildering that these things

4:22

have happened in real life. And then

4:25

you could find out how Rosaria has

4:27

treated it in her fiction. We

4:29

discuss how a new star in a

4:31

new country has influenced when and where

4:34

she writes. Also, she writes scenes in

4:36

quite a scattered way, being inspired by

4:38

character and place. She doesn't really

4:40

do it chronologically. And very simply, how

4:43

is that possible when you've not plotted

4:45

everything at the start? How do you

4:47

know where these scenes are going? And

4:50

how much work needs to be

4:52

done when you put them together to

4:54

kind of smooth the gaps of where

4:56

they join? We unpick all of that.

4:59

And we discuss, what do you do

5:01

after mining such a key event in

5:03

your life for the first book? How

5:06

do you possibly go again for

5:08

your second? Rosaria will reveal all and

5:10

we get into it as we always

5:12

do with what she sees around her

5:15

in the place where she sits down

5:17

to write. Now I am in

5:19

my apartment in Toronto. It's

5:21

on the 15th floor

5:23

and it has a

5:25

south view over the

5:27

city. I'm in my

5:29

office and most days

5:31

my cat Puchino's back

5:33

is the closest site

5:36

as normally you find

5:38

him perched on my

5:40

desk watching outside. serving

5:42

the state of his

5:44

kingdom, we say, because

5:46

his nickname is after

5:48

all the King of

5:50

Toronto. Today it's not

5:52

first thing in the

5:54

morning, so he's asleep,

5:56

but what I see...

5:58

around me is a,

6:00

I have a 180

6:02

degree view. It's a

6:05

corner room. So it's

6:07

interesting because it captures

6:09

two different sides of

6:11

the city. Towards the

6:13

east, I, it looks

6:15

over a green panorama.

6:17

It has a bucolic

6:19

fill, lots of trees,

6:21

gardens. a primary school

6:23

with a football court,

6:25

two tennis courts, and

6:27

then to the South,

6:29

you have the Toronto

6:31

skyline, which is quite

6:34

impressive. Towards West, it's

6:36

just pure urban energy,

6:38

skyscrapers, traffic, people rushing,

6:40

lots of haste and

6:42

speed, what you would

6:44

expect in a North

6:46

American city. evocative description

6:48

of this quite contrasting

6:50

scenes that you've got

6:52

out of two different

6:54

sides of your window.

6:56

If you bring us

6:58

inside the apartment, you've

7:00

got the cat. What

7:03

else is there around

7:05

you that's quite inspirational?

7:07

Is there artwork on

7:09

the wall? Is there

7:11

books? Maybe there's something

7:13

more practical and you've

7:15

got a whiteboard with

7:17

notes about your plot

7:19

on there. Now I

7:21

have a white board

7:23

because I felt when

7:25

I started writing my

7:27

second novel that I

7:29

felt I had to

7:32

have one, but I've

7:34

hardly used it. I

7:36

think all my inspiration

7:38

is in my mind.

7:40

And if I have

7:42

to write something, I

7:44

usually have a notebook

7:46

and I write with

7:48

a pencil in my

7:50

notebook. However, I write

7:52

on an antique desk,

7:54

which is for me

7:56

it's inspiring. It's a

7:58

bull desk. And Andre

8:01

Boul was the furniture

8:03

maker to the Sun

8:05

King, Louis XIV of

8:07

France. And in more

8:09

recent times, his name

8:11

is associated with another

8:13

celebrity. A Boudesca was

8:15

indeed Dr. Knows' working

8:17

table in the eponymous

8:19

James Bond movie. And

8:21

my desk is the

8:23

opposite of practical because

8:25

I must confess it's

8:27

a little too intricate,

8:30

too opulent. It has

8:32

a lot of sharp

8:34

bronze mounds and inlays

8:36

and it's a infallible

8:38

garmentous layer. However, it's

8:40

such a thing of

8:42

creative beauty, a masterpiece

8:44

of handicraft that I

8:46

find it. very vocative.

8:48

Also, it's intriguing because

8:50

I sometimes imagine all

8:52

the previous owners, all

8:54

the things they might

8:56

have written on this

8:59

tape for the past

9:01

few centuries. So I

9:03

find my desk quite

9:05

inspiring for that reason.

9:07

As long as I

9:09

wear something, I don't

9:11

care if it gets

9:13

ripped or destroyed after

9:15

a full day at

9:17

work. really plotting on

9:19

a whiteboard or anything

9:21

like that? Where does

9:23

your kind of ideas

9:25

exist in a physical

9:28

form that's not just

9:30

in your head and

9:32

you'll see what happens?

9:34

Is there a place

9:36

where you make notes

9:38

and where you store

9:40

stuff? Perhaps it's all

9:42

on a laptop? No,

9:44

I have a notebook

9:46

and I write my

9:48

notebook a lot. Whatever

9:50

comes to my mind,

9:52

I always have a

9:54

notebook with me because

9:57

you never know. and

9:59

inspiration may strike. So

10:01

a notebook and I

10:03

write only with pencil.

10:05

I find it more

10:07

relaxing calming to write

10:09

with pencil. I also

10:11

like the noise of

10:13

the pencil on paper.

10:15

And I have several

10:17

notebooks because my handwriting

10:19

is very big. And

10:21

sometimes I have a

10:23

hard time deciphering it

10:26

myself, but that's something

10:28

that my teachers in

10:30

school always struggled with.

10:32

So I've always had

10:34

a very, what was

10:36

called, a bad handwriting.

10:38

So yes, a notebook,

10:40

and then my computer

10:42

for, you know, less,

10:44

more structured thoughts. Quite

10:46

interested by Place recently

10:48

and you have lived,

10:50

well, in a few

10:52

different locations. I've been

10:55

born in Tuscany and

10:57

you've gone to Copenhagen

10:59

and Ireland, now you've

11:01

settled in Toronto. How

11:03

have you found the,

11:05

I guess the energy

11:07

of those different places

11:09

and how inspiring they've

11:11

all been in different

11:13

ways to creativity? Now,

11:15

I must say I

11:17

grew up in a

11:19

tiny village in Tuscany,

11:21

called Gizano. I say

11:24

tiny head at the

11:26

time, 300 people living

11:28

there. Today it's a

11:30

slightly bigger, it's grown.

11:32

There are 350 residents.

11:34

But so imagine during

11:36

my childhood and even

11:38

teenage years, this was

11:40

an analog era. So

11:42

it was... pre-Mobile phones,

11:44

free internet. So, you

11:46

know, what I did

11:48

all the time, I

11:50

just read because there

11:53

were more books than

11:55

people. So I read

11:57

all the time. I

11:59

always had a love

12:01

for stories. Now I

12:03

was surrounded by history

12:05

and this breathtaking landscape

12:07

that I couldn't appreciate

12:09

because I was a

12:11

restless teenager and I

12:13

always thought, I always

12:15

wonder about discovering what

12:17

was what was beyond

12:19

the hedge, what was

12:22

the world beyond this

12:24

tiny isolated place. And

12:26

so I developed, along

12:28

with the love for

12:30

reading and later writing,

12:32

also a love for

12:34

traveling. I must say

12:36

that later in life,

12:38

when I became an

12:40

immigrant a couple of

12:42

times, going back to

12:44

Gizano, I rediscovered it

12:46

with the eyes of

12:48

a tourist almost, and

12:51

so I came really

12:53

to appreciate both the

12:55

natural beauty, but also.

12:57

the history, considered that

12:59

they have found the

13:01

traces in an archaeological

13:03

site in Gizano that

13:05

goes back to Roman

13:07

times. So very ancient

13:09

history. But when I

13:11

went to university in

13:13

Pisa, I studied Scandinavian

13:15

languages and literature because

13:17

it offered the opportunity

13:20

of long... periods spent

13:22

in Scandinavia. So there

13:24

were scholarships and that's

13:26

when I moved to

13:28

Denmark. I was 20

13:30

and the first time

13:32

I was in Copenhagen,

13:34

well for me that

13:36

was like heaven, I

13:38

had my own apartment

13:40

and I was in

13:42

this, you know, a

13:44

completely different... a completely

13:46

different atmosphere and even

13:49

the architecture, everything felt

13:51

very different from Italian

13:53

talk. But also there

13:55

was a sense of

13:57

freedom and a lot

13:59

of creativity there. And

14:01

so that was inspiring

14:03

as well. I also

14:05

had a very unusual

14:07

experience there when I

14:09

got a part-time job

14:11

working for an antique

14:13

dealer and it turned

14:15

out to be... more

14:18

than an antique dealer.

14:20

I know and I

14:22

know I know that

14:24

that's inspired the debut

14:26

novel. So we'll come

14:28

to that in just

14:30

a second and you've

14:32

you've floated around when

14:34

you were writing when

14:36

you are writing and

14:38

you're living in Toronto

14:40

now but your first

14:42

language would have been

14:44

Italian and you're well-versed

14:47

in Scandinavian languages too.

14:49

What language do you

14:51

think in when you

14:53

are writing? It's English.

14:55

I must say that

14:57

English has taken over

14:59

all the other languages

15:01

I've ever spoken or

15:03

studied. Of course, Italian

15:05

is the mother tongue,

15:07

so I would say

15:09

Italian is the language

15:11

where I don't have

15:13

an accent, although Italians

15:16

would disagree when I

15:18

go to Italy. Usually

15:20

in the supermarket, while

15:22

I'm queuing at the

15:24

cashier, they complement me

15:26

on my Italian because

15:28

they say I have

15:30

a British accent which

15:32

I don't think is

15:34

the case but maybe

15:36

I have a little

15:38

bit of an accent

15:40

now even when I

15:42

speak Italian but definitely

15:45

for me writing in

15:47

English is easier. I

15:49

have a fluency that

15:51

I have lost in

15:53

Italian and Also, I

15:55

think the vocabulary, I'm

15:57

very up to date

15:59

with words and expressions

16:01

in English, all my,

16:03

most of my reading,

16:05

I should say, is

16:07

in English. And so,

16:09

yes, for me, writing

16:11

in English comes natural.

16:14

And when you are...

16:16

in different places, from

16:18

Tuscany to Pisa to

16:20

Copenhagen, Ireland, now Toronto.

16:22

How different do they

16:24

feel? Is it palpable?

16:26

Can you almost clutch

16:28

and describe how unique

16:30

these places are and

16:32

what they're doing to

16:34

your mind and your

16:36

creativity as you are

16:38

thinking about what to

16:40

write? Italy and Tuscany.

16:43

So of course, there

16:45

is, in Italy, I

16:47

think everything is worth

16:49

putting in a novel,

16:51

the food. I mean,

16:53

the five senses, all

16:55

the senses are just,

16:57

you know, there are

16:59

so many inspirations. Your

17:01

senses are always alerted

17:03

that the smells. the

17:05

sides, even the sounds,

17:07

Italians are quite loud,

17:09

but there is this

17:12

musicality to the language.

17:14

And also, I must

17:16

say that there is

17:18

a certain warmth to

17:20

the people, which have

17:22

come to appreciate having

17:24

lived in countries that

17:26

are a little bit

17:28

more... introverted, let's put

17:30

it like that. So

17:32

definitely there is inspiration

17:34

also rediscovering my roots.

17:36

It makes me think

17:38

a lot of my

17:41

of my past and

17:43

since my the protagonist

17:45

in my debut is

17:47

a 21 year old

17:49

student, it definitely provides

17:51

inspiration for creating and

17:53

developing my protagonist. When

17:56

I go to Ireland, I'm

17:58

always amazed at What a

18:00

country of book readers. That's

18:03

a real literary country.

18:05

Everybody talks about books

18:07

once they want to

18:09

know about books and

18:12

it doesn't feel strange

18:14

that you wrote a book

18:16

and they just want, they're

18:18

interested in finding out when

18:21

the book is coming out

18:23

because they want to read

18:26

it. Along with literature, I

18:28

think Ireland also is a

18:30

very musical country. A friend

18:33

of mine, Italian, years ago

18:35

in Dublin, told me Ireland

18:38

is the only country where

18:40

even if you go to

18:42

the supermarket, you just want

18:44

to stop and listen at

18:46

the music they play. And

18:48

it's true. They are great

18:50

singers, they have great music,

18:52

so another kind of inspiration.

18:55

Denmark, of course, today

18:58

you have the Scandinavian war,

19:00

and all the thrillers

19:02

and murder mysteries coming from

19:05

Scandinavia, but I think that's

19:07

not just by chance. I

19:09

don't want to, you know,

19:12

the whole of the mark,

19:14

my experience has been

19:17

mainly, the whole of

19:19

Scandinavia, but my experiences,

19:22

but my experiences. be

19:24

mainly in Denmark. I

19:27

mean, behind this

19:29

very quiet facade,

19:32

you can feel that

19:34

there are tensions

19:36

boiling. So I

19:38

like the contrast

19:41

between what you see

19:43

and what really

19:45

happens there. And then

19:48

of course, it's a

19:50

country where. Winters

19:52

are long days are short

19:55

in winter and you can

19:57

only imagine what goes on.

20:00

among all the

20:02

darkness. Canada, I

20:04

believe Canada has taught

20:07

me to be very even

20:09

more disciplined

20:12

and how to always

20:14

think about work first,

20:17

put work first. And

20:20

also there are, probably

20:22

I find that there

20:25

are fewer distractions for

20:27

me here. I don't

20:30

have a huge social

20:33

circle, a new wish

20:35

in Canada, and it's

20:38

just the sheer size

20:40

of the country. It's

20:43

something that You

20:45

know, it's something that it

20:48

feels almost impossible to explore

20:50

and to grasp. Even Toronto,

20:52

it's such a big city

20:55

and it's very widespread. So

20:57

you feel that after a

20:59

decade here, you still don't,

21:02

you've never visited certain areas

21:04

because they're just so widespread.

21:06

And so this idea that

21:09

there is always something

21:11

more to get to know, something

21:13

that you might not even realize

21:15

it exists, although it's in the

21:18

same place where you spend most

21:20

of your life. And I find

21:22

that intriguing. How much do

21:24

you feel that inspiration and

21:27

the influences of different places

21:29

when you are writing a

21:31

novel? Are you able as you're

21:34

doing it to think, oh, okay,

21:36

that comes from my time

21:38

in Copenhagen? Maybe this part

21:40

of it? is more influenced

21:43

by my time in Ireland.

21:45

Is it as is it

21:47

as a tactile and

21:50

reachable as that? Yes,

21:52

I think so. Because

21:54

also I must say

21:57

it's not just the

21:59

different from the places

22:02

per se. I

22:04

think it's also

22:06

the amount of

22:08

the amount of experiences

22:13

you have

22:15

encountered other

22:17

people's experiences

22:19

or all

22:22

these diversity

22:24

of the... among the

22:26

residents. So I think

22:28

it's inspiring in that

22:31

sense that there is so

22:33

much variety in all

22:35

these places, so much

22:38

diversity, that of course you

22:40

end up having the ability

22:43

to pick and choose

22:45

and put a little

22:47

bit according to your

22:49

needs, whenever you're

22:51

writing. At the same time,

22:54

I know that I'm restless

22:56

in my writing in

22:58

the sense that I've

23:00

realized in my plot, my

23:02

characters have to move.

23:04

They cannot, I can't

23:07

imagine my writing a

23:09

story that takes place just

23:11

in one place. They have

23:14

to move, they have to

23:16

travel, and... It's probably because

23:19

I have material and

23:21

I have fun stories

23:23

or, you know, unique

23:26

anecdotes that can go

23:28

into my writing in

23:30

different places. So I

23:32

think it's part of

23:35

my repertoire. I

23:37

am not the most efficient

23:39

writer. I cannot charge 1500,

23:42

2000 words a day. but

23:44

I'm incredibly disciplined so I

23:47

write every single day. I

23:49

usually I'm an early riser

23:52

and my best writing happens

23:54

in the morning. I have

23:57

a cup of coffee and

23:59

espresso. And I sit

24:01

at my desk and

24:04

I start writing. However,

24:07

sometimes I have other

24:09

commitments, morning commitments. In

24:12

that case, I make sure

24:14

to squeeze in some writing

24:16

later in the day. But

24:19

the typical day I would

24:21

write in the morning. Throughout

24:24

the day, I devote a

24:26

lot of time. to reading

24:28

as well. I alternate from

24:31

the lunch time, after

24:33

lunch time onwards, I

24:35

alternate writing. We're reading.

24:37

And I do a

24:40

lot of research for

24:42

my writing. And so

24:44

I have books and

24:46

material that I

24:49

read for my writing. And

24:51

then when they working day

24:54

is finished, I tend to

24:56

read for leisure. As I

24:58

switch between the two reading

25:01

and writing, I've noticed that

25:03

emotionally, for me, it takes

25:06

more as a reader than

25:08

as a writer. And that's

25:10

why I tend to alternate.

25:13

What I mean is that

25:15

when I read, I, you know,

25:18

all my life, I've

25:20

had a lot of

25:22

countless heart breaks as a

25:24

reader and I had no

25:27

control about them. As a

25:29

writer it's easier because I

25:32

have a little bit more

25:34

agency or at least

25:37

since my characters are

25:39

bossy and they tell

25:41

me where they want

25:43

to go, but at

25:45

least I know early

25:47

enough where the plot

25:49

is going and I'm

25:51

prepared for what happens

25:53

to them. And so

25:55

reading and writing creates

25:57

a nice balance throughout

25:59

the day. I don't write

26:02

in a linear

26:04

fashion. My writing,

26:06

my books, start

26:08

with scenes and

26:10

characters that are clearing

26:12

my mind. And then

26:15

I transfer these scenes

26:17

onto the book and

26:19

then the book builds

26:22

around them. I'm also

26:24

not great at drafting

26:26

an outline, and I

26:29

can't plot an entire

26:31

story in advance. And

26:33

I've tried, because I've

26:36

had teachers, creative writing

26:38

teachers, that have tried

26:41

to convey the idea of

26:43

how important it is to

26:46

outline. But even if I

26:48

try to outline and I

26:50

have a kind of

26:52

outline, It just doesn't,

26:54

the plot doesn't happen

26:57

that way. I would compare

26:59

my plot to those flocks

27:01

of birds in the sky

27:03

and they suddenly swarm

27:06

and move somewhere else

27:08

and that's how my

27:11

story evolves. It suddenly

27:13

shifts and takes all

27:16

the players, the characters,

27:18

the characters, the plot.

27:20

me with it in

27:23

a different direction. But

27:25

it works for me.

27:27

And yes, since the

27:29

characters are always there

27:32

first. As I said, I see

27:34

them, I have come. conversation with

27:36

them, we often quarrel, but they always

27:38

get their way. How much of an

27:41

idea do you have at the very

27:43

start then of what these characters

27:45

are there to do? So you say

27:47

that you don't outline, but if

27:49

you've got such a clear understanding of

27:52

who these characters are and you're talking

27:54

about them, you're putting them in scenes,

27:56

have you any idea of why

27:58

they've been presented? And to

28:01

you, what these scenes are

28:03

all about in the grand

28:06

scheme of the novel? Yes,

28:08

and also maybe not for

28:11

all characters, but definitely for

28:13

the main players. I have

28:16

a clear idea of why

28:18

they're there and how they're

28:20

going to... be agents in

28:23

the story, how they're gonna

28:25

be drivers in the story.

28:28

Although most of the times,

28:30

I don't know how they're

28:33

gonna end. Are they gonna

28:35

survive? Are they gonna die?

28:38

Are they gonna fall in

28:40

love? Fall out of love?

28:43

So yes, but I have

28:45

a pretty clear idea in

28:48

my mind. You mentioned. that

28:50

you flip between writing and

28:53

reading and then writing and

28:55

reading? What dictates when you're

28:58

doing one or the other?

29:00

Is it a moment where

29:03

you need some inspiration? So

29:05

you'll think about reading? Do

29:08

you set yourself short amounts

29:10

of time that you can

29:13

write with? How does that

29:15

side of things work? So

29:18

mornings I usually write because

29:20

I know I'm, my mind

29:23

is... very awake and I

29:25

can be very focused. So

29:28

let's say from seven in

29:30

the morning to probably 12,

29:33

it's devoted to writing. Then

29:35

lunch time after lunch, I

29:38

would say, I usually have

29:40

to do some research. Something

29:43

I wrote in the morning,

29:45

I need to go back

29:48

and check something. So I

29:50

would, at that point, I

29:53

would do some research reading.

29:55

Or if I need, I

29:58

don't know, to get hold

30:00

of a new book or

30:03

order a new study, a

30:05

paper, etc., I do it

30:08

then. If I'm still, usually

30:10

after this, if my questions

30:13

are answered through my reading,

30:15

I go back and write

30:18

a little bit more. But

30:20

I would say that by

30:23

4 o'clock, I'm not able

30:25

to write anymore. I just,

30:28

my mind is tired. And

30:30

so what I do then,

30:33

I... according to, you know,

30:35

if I need to do

30:38

some more research, I continue

30:40

reading, otherwise I take a

30:43

break. And my leisure reading

30:45

is usually in bed before

30:48

I go to sleep. I

30:50

tend not to go to

30:53

bed too late because I

30:55

get up early in the

30:58

morning, and but I just

31:00

read. at least two hours

31:03

before going to sleep every

31:05

night. What's the aim for

31:08

the morning session? Are you

31:10

working to a word count?

31:13

Is it simply a case

31:15

of doing the hours? You'll

31:18

know when you're done? Sometimes,

31:20

you know, of course, we

31:23

are human, so you cannot

31:25

just function the same every

31:28

single day. Sometimes it's just

31:30

because I have, I need

31:33

to progress, I need to

31:35

add these chapters, this incident

31:38

in the book, etc. and

31:40

I want to have a

31:43

list of something put down

31:45

from A to Z, from

31:48

start to finish. It's not

31:50

a work count, it's more

31:53

a certain section of the

31:55

book or a certain... particular

31:58

event that is going to

32:00

drive the plot. I want

32:03

to have on, well, on

32:05

paper. It's actually on the

32:08

laptop, but let's say on

32:10

paper. And it's also taking

32:13

advantage of a time when

32:15

I know a most productive.

32:18

So it's just taking advantage

32:20

of that. Now, imagine I've

32:23

finished the first draft of

32:25

my novel. Of course, that

32:28

morning would be devoted to

32:30

rewriting or going through edits.

32:33

But definitely, it's because in

32:35

the morning, you know, for

32:38

me, the morning has always

32:40

been a very productive time.

32:43

And I work until I

32:45

can, but I would tell

32:48

you that probably by... 11,

32:50

30, 12, I need to

32:53

do something else and usually

32:55

it's reading or going to

32:58

the gym. I tend to,

33:00

you know, I believe in

33:03

men's son and car for

33:05

a son or so I

33:08

tend to work out as

33:10

much as I can as

33:13

well. So that work on

33:15

the novel is quite all

33:18

consuming and you said that

33:20

where you're living now, you've

33:23

not got too much of

33:25

a social circle around you.

33:28

How do you stop yourself

33:30

from just being exhausted by

33:33

spending so much time with

33:35

these characters? Because I have,

33:38

I have, I have interests,

33:40

so for example, I, you

33:43

know, I spend time in

33:45

libraries, bookstores, as I said,

33:48

I'm still discovering. Toronto, so

33:50

I wonder through the city

33:53

even in winter and I

33:55

have a few friends. Also

33:58

I must say the Toronto

34:00

Public Library is absolutely outstanding.

34:03

have amazing events, talks, workshops,

34:05

etc. So I spend a

34:08

lot of time at the

34:10

library, not just browsing the

34:13

shelves, but also attending events

34:15

there. And I work out,

34:18

and then I travel. I

34:20

travel. I travel quite a

34:23

bit. When I travel I

34:25

probably, I don't write as

34:28

much when I travel, but

34:30

I try to absorb all

34:33

inspirations and then I come

34:35

back and, you know, as

34:38

most writers do, still a

34:40

little bit from real life

34:43

here and there and put

34:45

it on paper. are presented

34:48

to you, they're just characters,

34:50

there's not a plot, there's

34:53

not an outline, per se,

34:55

at the start, how much

34:58

work are you putting into

35:00

these characters, and how many

35:03

scenes do you tend to

35:05

write before the general plan

35:08

is made clear, before you

35:10

have a sense of, okay,

35:13

this is the story I'm

35:15

telling, this is what they're

35:18

doing, and this is where

35:20

we might end up. I

35:23

would say probably... I

35:25

would say three quarters of

35:28

a book full of scenes

35:30

and the characters developing characters

35:32

that I knew would be

35:34

there from the beginning and

35:36

then they meet you know

35:38

other characters getting introduced and

35:40

So I would say three

35:43

quarters of a book and

35:45

after that it's just clear.

35:47

I know where the story

35:49

is going. I know what

35:51

each character, what their role

35:53

is going. to be? How

35:56

much work do you have

35:58

to do after the first

36:00

draft is done to maybe

36:02

smooth out some of those

36:04

gaps when there were when

36:06

you were just putting down

36:08

random scenes that involved these

36:11

characters and and your your

36:13

narrative your novel changes by

36:15

the time it's done? Is

36:17

it is it much legwork

36:19

to drag these things into

36:21

a sensible and understandable order?

36:23

Yes, I must say that

36:26

as much as I dislike

36:28

rewriting, redrafting, editing, I also

36:30

understand that that's critical. So

36:32

I would say that my

36:34

first book, my debut, quoting

36:36

a very famous quote was

36:39

more about rewriting than writing

36:41

because there was a first

36:43

draft and then what went

36:45

into the published version had

36:47

not much resemblance with where

36:49

I had started. So I

36:51

believe that it's very important

36:54

to write that first draft,

36:56

just write it, because if

36:58

you don't write it, your

37:00

novel doesn't exist. So I

37:02

just write that first draft.

37:04

And then I know that

37:06

I have to really somehow

37:09

I feel like I'm going

37:11

against my nature, but the

37:13

editing start and the editing

37:15

is quite... substantial and it's

37:17

not just one rewrite, it

37:19

could be three, it could

37:22

be five. I have some

37:24

writer friends that have told

37:26

me expect even to rewrite

37:28

itself. seven times. So yes,

37:30

but it's important to have

37:32

that first draft done, I

37:34

believe. We've got more from

37:37

Missouri in just a second.

37:39

If you're enjoying the show,

37:41

you can support what we

37:43

do. It's just me. I

37:45

kind of work alone on

37:47

this most of the time

37:49

doing all the fuss that

37:52

comes with bringing you these

37:54

chats with the best authors

37:56

around as often as I

37:58

can. And if you would

38:00

like to support and help

38:02

me do that for you

38:05

so I can keep bringing

38:07

you these chats as often

38:09

as possible. Well you can

38:11

do that in a couple

38:13

of ways. It could be

38:15

a one-off perhaps, just a

38:17

little tip to say I

38:20

guess a thank you for

38:22

bringing some inspiration and advice

38:24

from authors. You could do

38:26

that on our co-fai page,

38:28

just a little one-off tip

38:30

there really helps. Co-fai.com/writers routine.

38:32

Or if you'd like to

38:35

support us regularly, you can

38:37

become a monthly backer and

38:39

get access to our community

38:41

over on Patreon. patreon.com/writers routine.

38:43

There you get merch, bonus

38:45

content, there is even a

38:48

way for your book to

38:50

sponsor this show too. It

38:52

can be for as much

38:54

or as little as you

38:56

like. I don't mind just

38:58

the fact that you are

39:00

supporting the show on a

39:03

regular basis means ever so

39:05

much. It's patreon.com/writers routine. The

39:07

links for both are in

39:09

the episode notes or ever

39:11

you're listening. Let's get back

39:13

to it then chatting to

39:16

Rosaria Georgie with the fascinating

39:18

story behind her new novel

39:20

The Less Unkind and how

39:22

she planned her life to

39:24

tell it. You can hear

39:26

about building the narrative and

39:28

trying to figure out how

39:31

the plot would work with

39:33

something that truly happened. How

39:35

do you dance around some

39:37

aspects of it and make

39:39

it play out in a

39:41

narrative? We talk about what

39:43

she wants to do next

39:46

too and we get back

39:48

to it. Well with the

39:50

real meat of the story

39:52

behind the story about the

39:54

umbrella assassin and how she

39:56

became involved in his life.

39:59

This was when I was

40:01

a student in Copenhagen. a

40:03

friend of mine introduced me

40:05

to a common friend and

40:07

he suggested that I would

40:10

go and work for

40:12

this antique dealer and

40:14

with the caveat

40:16

that my future employer

40:18

might be working for

40:21

the mafia is where

40:23

my friend's words. It

40:25

was a remark that didn't

40:28

scare me too much. We

40:30

were 20 and it was

40:32

the usual bartering at

40:35

that time without much

40:37

afterthought. So I started

40:40

working for this person.

40:43

He was Italian and

40:45

Danish. He had both

40:47

cities and ships. And

40:50

his name was Francesco

40:52

Gullino. I got to know him

40:54

because he was older than us,

40:57

but somehow he was the only

40:59

one with a vehicle. He had

41:01

a ban and he would drive

41:03

us around Copenhagen, always would foot

41:05

the bills, and we'd just let

41:07

him come along. So the antique

41:09

dealer didn't turn up to be a

41:12

money launderer for the mafia,

41:14

working for the mafia. It

41:16

turned out to be the

41:18

umbrella assassin, working for the

41:20

mafia. It turned out to

41:22

be the umbrella assassin. He

41:24

was a famous hitman and

41:26

one of the legends

41:29

of the Cold War.

41:31

The umbrella assassin had

41:34

gained his moniker because

41:37

of his weapon of

41:39

choice, which was a

41:42

poison tip umbrella. And

41:44

in 1978, the most

41:47

infamous case, the most

41:50

infamous hit of this

41:52

assassin, was in London.

41:55

A Bulgarian dissident writer

41:58

George Markov was on

42:00

a water law bridge, waiting

42:02

to take a bus to

42:05

his job at the BBC.

42:07

And while he was waiting,

42:10

a stranger bumped into him,

42:12

and he felt a pain

42:15

in his leg, and Markov

42:17

described it later to some

42:20

colleagues, as if a bee

42:22

had stung him or an

42:25

insect had beaten him. And

42:27

when he turned, he saw

42:30

this stranger picking up an

42:32

umbrella from the sidewalk and

42:35

getting to a taxi after

42:37

apologizing. That evening, Markov developed

42:40

a fever and four days

42:42

later, he died in a

42:45

London hospital. And after his

42:47

death, a special examination revealed

42:50

that he had been injected

42:52

with a rising poison pellet.

42:55

And later on, they discovered

42:57

it had been shot with

43:00

a specially adapted umbrella, hence

43:02

the name of the hitman

43:04

and my employer Francesco Gullino.

43:07

By then, Gullino was already

43:09

masquerading as an antique dealer

43:12

in Copenhagen. By the way,

43:14

the heat had been ordered

43:17

by the Bulgarian Secret Service.

43:19

and it had happened on

43:22

the day of the Bulgarian

43:24

leader's birthday in September because

43:27

the Bulgarian leader absolutely hated

43:29

the dissident. It said that

43:32

the leader had no sense

43:34

of humor and Markov always

43:37

used to make fun of

43:39

him. However, by that time,

43:42

I must say that had

43:44

probably put the umbrella away

43:47

because I never noticed anything.

43:49

And he was quite a

43:52

sad man, a sad person,

43:54

very lonely. And I worked

43:57

for him a few months,

43:59

and then I finished. And

44:01

a few years later, like

44:04

three, four years later, the

44:06

friend who had introduced me

44:09

to him, let me know

44:11

that Interpol had gone to

44:14

Copenhagen. And I had interviewed

44:16

my friend, because Gulino. was

44:19

suspected of being the umbrella

44:21

assassin and he had disappeared.

44:24

And so that was my

44:26

brush with an assassin. When

44:29

you reflect on him as

44:31

an employer and you mention

44:34

that he was quite a

44:36

sad chap, it must have

44:39

really helped you... paint a

44:41

more three-dimensional and authentic picture

44:44

of a, you know, a

44:46

villain in a piece because

44:49

you have seen the humanity

44:51

behind that person and absent

44:54

of the horrible things that

44:56

they might have done. How

44:59

much did you reflect on

45:01

that when you came to

45:03

writing this novel? I found

45:06

out about the umbrella assessing.

45:08

As a person, my employer,

45:11

the antique dealer, was, I

45:13

thought of him quite a

45:16

bit. While I was working

45:18

for him, I was in

45:21

love, had a new boyfriend,

45:23

so my mind, more than

45:26

Antiques and Mafia, or Mafia,

45:28

was on romance, and I

45:31

was in a very happy

45:33

place. My employer, it was

45:36

just the two of us

45:38

in this huge showroom in

45:41

the city center of Copenhagen,

45:43

was always alone. So it

45:46

struck me as a very

45:48

lonely man. It would take

45:51

me, we would go to

45:53

a lot of auctions and

45:56

then after the auction we

45:58

would just have long lunches

46:00

and I had, and I

46:03

always did the talking, he

46:05

just listened, but he was

46:08

asking questions and I always

46:10

felt that what he needed

46:13

more than an employee was.

46:15

I don't want to say

46:18

a friend, but someone to

46:20

listen to and probably I

46:23

was quite innocent and maybe

46:25

that innocence and naivety that

46:28

he had lost because it

46:30

seems he was recruited by

46:33

the Bulgarian Secret Services and

46:35

giving a choice and giving

46:38

a choice because he was

46:40

arrested for smuggling in Bulgaria

46:43

and he was told either

46:45

you go to prison for

46:48

years or you become... one

46:50

of our agents. So maybe

46:53

that was something that reminded

46:55

him of a lost innocence.

46:58

But at the same time,

47:00

when I found out that

47:02

he was suspected to be

47:05

the umbrella assassin and later

47:07

turned out that he was

47:10

the umbrella assassin. I felt...

47:12

very sadness for this person

47:15

because with me he had

47:17

always been extremely correct, extremely

47:20

generous, pleasant, but there was

47:22

a sense of emptiness around

47:25

him. So that was something

47:27

that probably I didn't spend

47:30

too much time thinking about

47:32

a 20. I've taught about

47:35

a lot while writing my

47:37

book. Well, so the novel

47:40

is the less unkind and

47:42

it's about someone called Pico

47:45

who is in Copenhagen when

47:47

she's 21 years old, she

47:50

gets a job for an

47:52

enigmatic antique dealer. So we

47:55

see where the inspiration is

47:57

from and why, that's why

47:59

you would do when you're

48:02

presented with this life experience

48:04

and you reflect on it.

48:07

How long did it take

48:09

before you thought that this

48:12

would be an interesting creative

48:14

path to go down when

48:17

those first few scenes few

48:19

scenes... arrived to you. Would

48:22

you remember that moment of

48:24

when you thought, oh, that

48:27

thing that happened to me

48:29

in Copenhagen with that guy

48:32

who ended up being an

48:34

assassin? I think that would

48:37

be a nice thing to

48:39

write about. I must say,

48:42

of course, I've had the

48:44

opportunity to mention this experience

48:47

as an anecdote around the

48:49

dinner table many times with

48:52

my friends and every time

48:54

they were first incredulous and

48:57

then the next thing that

48:59

would say would be, oh

49:01

you should write a book

49:04

about it. And so I,

49:06

this repetition, I played it

49:09

in my mind with this

49:11

idea. But I, when I

49:14

started doing a creative writing

49:16

class here in Toronto, a

49:19

few years ago, we had

49:21

to write a little a

49:24

little something that we could

49:26

imagine as an extract of

49:29

a short story of a

49:31

novel. And of course, at

49:34

that point, I really put

49:36

pen to paper and the

49:39

first sentence I wrote was,

49:41

I once worked for a

49:44

hitman. And it was probably,

49:46

I don't know, 500 wars

49:49

piece. And when the class

49:51

read it, Everybody said again,

49:54

oh, we are waiting to...

49:56

here the full story. This

49:59

is material, novel material. And

50:01

I just started writing and

50:03

I didn't stop until the

50:06

end. And now I guess

50:08

moving on to whatever comes

50:11

next, how on earth do

50:13

you mind anything else that's

50:16

happened in your life when

50:18

you've been given this excellent

50:21

story to talk about and

50:23

to investigate that something that

50:26

happened to something that happened

50:28

to you? What do you

50:31

do when you need to

50:33

write a second book? Well,

50:36

I'm already writing a second

50:38

book. So, the lesson kind

50:41

is first in the Pico

50:43

de La Rosa series. So

50:46

there, it's a stand-alone, but

50:48

there's going to be another

50:51

Pico de La Rosa's book,

50:53

which I'm currently writing. The

50:56

focus of the first book,

50:58

it's not on the employer.

51:00

The first book was born

51:03

out of the question, what

51:05

if? What if I, Rosaria,

51:08

had paid a little bit

51:10

more attention? Or I had

51:13

investigated a bit more. I

51:15

had got in trouble because

51:18

of that. What would happen?

51:20

And of course, Pico does

51:23

exactly that. And this is,

51:25

and the focus is on

51:28

her, she's the protagonist, not

51:30

the employer. And book number

51:33

two, she's still going to

51:35

be the protagonist. And whatever

51:38

happened in book number one,

51:40

and it ought to happen

51:43

to her, well, she's going

51:45

to bear the scars, and

51:48

also she's going to have

51:50

that experience to just go

51:53

on the next adventure, murderous

51:55

adventure, I would say. So,

52:00

That is it for this week's writers routine. Thank

52:03

you so much to Rosaria Georgie for coming on

52:05

the show. You can get a copy

52:07

of that new book right now. If

52:09

you'd like to do it in a

52:11

way that supports Rosaria, this podcast, and

52:13

your local and independent local use our

52:15

bookshop .org page. We've got a little Writers'

52:17

Routine a over there. store over there. Use the

52:20

link in the episode you're listening. Also there

52:22

is a way that you could subscribe

52:24

to our substack to our to get a

52:26

weekly, more or less, newsletter. newsletter. and there's a

52:28

way you can get in touch with

52:30

the show in touch .com writers that you can

52:32

support us, and ways that on support us patron Thank

52:34

you for listening. I hope you took

52:36

a lot from that. hope fascinating story,

52:39

right? What a We'll be back next week

52:41

with a brand new guest next week with a brand

52:43

new guest Unveiling, very grand. routine, we at

52:45

that point? I guess it's for you

52:47

to tell. that point? I'll see you next

52:49

week. to Until then, bye. week. Until then, bye!