0:00

When you visit Arizona, time

0:03

is measured in moments, not minutes.

0:05

Like the moment you see the Grand Canyon for

0:07

the first time. Sigh. Visit

0:11

a new state of mind. Learn

0:13

more at hereyouareaz.com Water

0:16

damage is no joke. Did you know that water damage makes

0:18

up more than 25% of all home

0:20

insurance claims and the average claim costs over $13,000? Don't

0:23

let a small leak turn into

0:25

a big expense. Learn more at

0:28

go.pemko.com/no joke. Pemko Mutual Insurance Company,

0:30

Seattle, Washington. Water damage is no joke. Did

0:32

you know that water damage makes up more than 25% of

0:35

all home insurance claims and the average claim costs over $13,000?

0:38

Don't let a small leak turn into a

0:41

big expense. Learn more at go.pemko. To keep

0:43

pets happy and healthy all season

0:45

long. If

0:48

you're a maintenance supervisor for a commercial property,

0:50

you've had to deal with everything from leaky

0:52

faucets to flickering light bulbs. But nothing's worse

0:54

than that ancient boiler that's lived in the

0:56

building since the day it was built. 50

0:59

years ago, it's enough to make

1:02

anyone lose their cool. That's where

1:04

Grainger comes in. With industrial-grade products

1:06

and dependable fast delivery, Grainger can

1:08

help with any challenge. From worn-out

1:10

components to everyday necessities, call

1:12

clickrainger.com or just stop by Grainger for

1:14

the ones who get it done. This episode

1:17

of Writing Excuses has been brought to

1:19

you by our listeners, patrons. This man

1:21

to be your husband. I do.

1:25

Welcome home. We did it. He

1:29

has your eyes. He's perfect.

1:31

slash Make the most of

1:33

them all with PenFed Checking and Savings

1:35

accounts. Learn more at penfed.org. This is

1:37

Getting Federally insured by NCOA. To receive any advertised

1:40

product, you must become a member of

1:42

PenFed Credit Union. PenFed's got great rates

1:44

for everyone. And

1:48

we are And we be be talking

1:50

about using elements of romance

1:52

in your story. This does not,

1:54

I have to say, necessarily mean that

1:56

you have to have a love

1:58

story or even romantic, attack. You

2:01

can use romance elements for this

2:03

is what buddy films are. It

2:05

is the coming together as a

2:07

team, as a couple, as hey

2:09

we have a bond. And so

2:11

we're going to be talking about

2:13

some of the tools that you

2:15

can use when you're doing that.

2:17

One of them we foreshadowed last

2:19

week when we talked about the

2:21

meat cube. The

2:24

Meet Cute. This is a romance trope

2:27

in which your characters meet each other.

2:29

Does anyone want to chime in and

2:31

talk a little bit about how these...

2:33

So they both walk into the flesh

2:36

box. Wow. Cyberpunk story now. Right. Or

2:38

the new Netflix reality TV show. So

2:40

I think what I like about, so

2:43

I love a good romance, and what

2:45

I like about meat cutes is there

2:47

usually a situation in which there's a

2:49

tiny amount of tension because something is

2:52

kind of going wrong. Like the cute

2:54

part is like, my dogs got away

2:56

from me and they jumped on you,

2:59

or like, I almost spilled that coffee

3:01

on you. It's something very small. And

3:03

one character is able to put the

3:06

other one at ease, and the way

3:08

that they approach it shows that there's

3:10

something that's very sympathico in the way

3:12

that they deal with the world, see

3:15

the world, or deal with conflict. And

3:17

I think that helps to foreshadow the

3:19

way that they will deal with each

3:22

other going forward. That is a great

3:24

way to describe it. other thing that

3:26

I think that happens about that is

3:28

that there's always, in addition to the

3:31

thing going wrong, and that moment of,

3:33

oh yes, I care about you, there's

3:35

the desire for that connection to linger,

3:38

and there's usually some revelation about something

3:40

that they have in common. something that

3:42

is an unexpected thing that they have

3:45

in common. It's like, oh, we both

3:47

go to the same gym, or what,

3:49

your grandmother's name is Amelda as well?

3:51

You know, it's some, some common thing

3:54

that, that starts to, is kind of

3:56

the first thing that's cementing the friendship.

3:58

You mentioned how romances and buddy cop

4:01

films, you know, buddy films, right, are

4:03

both. some level fundamentally the same formula.

4:05

I pose the question, what does the

4:07

meat cute look like in a buddy

4:10

cop film? And it may end up

4:12

being something like these two law enforcement

4:14

officers or these two professionals at arms

4:17

both come to the same scene from

4:19

different agencies and there is gun play

4:21

and there is a little bit of

4:23

mutual respect and then, oh no, you

4:26

two have to be partners. I work

4:28

alone and off we go. I think

4:30

one thing that's really important about the

4:33

meet cute is it forces the characters

4:35

to actually interact, right, and interact about

4:37

something. There's so many times where I'll

4:40

read a book and I feel like

4:42

the authors assuming that these two characters

4:44

are in the same space, they're working

4:46

at the same office, they're both in

4:49

the same patrol car, therefore there's a

4:51

relationship, right? But we as the audience

4:53

are not seeing that interaction. We're not

4:56

getting a sense of that relationship. So

4:58

the meet-cute, by having a thing that

5:00

goes wrong in it, again, we're talking

5:02

about sort of like those little micro-trops

5:05

we talked about last episode, where there's

5:07

almost like that thriller component of like,

5:09

oh no, something has happened. But the

5:12

end result is one where we're leaning

5:14

into interaction as opposed to a plot

5:16

event and a plot hook in that

5:18

way, right? So those characters interacting, having

5:21

a conversation, you know, one person solving

5:23

a problem for another person and then

5:25

leaving us on a note where it's

5:28

like, oh, there's possibility for future interaction

5:30

here because they share something in common

5:32

or they exchange numbers or some aspect

5:35

of it that lets us carry that

5:37

thread into the future, right? So you

5:39

really want to make sure as you're

5:41

exiting that interaction that there's something that

5:44

carries us without event with momentum. I

5:46

don't want to get into a long

5:48

definitional conversation about what is and isn't

5:51

a meet cute. So I'm just going

5:53

to say, this is a different kind

5:55

of meeting now to talk about because

5:57

there's one thing that you also see

6:00

in a lot of relationship stories is

6:02

not the cute meeting. they kind of

6:04

have some common ground that they can

6:07

see, but the odd couple meeting, where

6:09

they are forced into conflict with each

6:11

other. This is really common, I think,

6:14

in a lot of buddy comedies because

6:16

they have that sense of budding heads

6:18

until they become friends, but you see

6:20

this in romance as well all the

6:23

time. You asked about Howard, you know,

6:25

what does the meeting look like in

6:27

a buddy comedy? for my money, the

6:30

best buddy comedy ever is The Nice

6:32

Guys by Shane Black. And that, you

6:34

know, the time the two characters meet

6:36

is when Russell Crow breaks into Ryan

6:39

Gosling's house and breaks his arm. Like,

6:41

that sets them up as antagonists and

6:43

then we get to watch them come

6:46

together and become friends. I think. to

6:48

build on what you're saying about the

6:50

kind of buddy, because I had the

6:52

same thought, like it's like they're forced

6:55

in the same patrol car, but I

6:57

think it's like a moment of intrigue

6:59

in the like most blase version of

7:02

that, which is that like, oh, we

7:04

maybe have something in common. Again, it's

7:06

fine in the commonality. It's the like,

7:09

you do things by the book and

7:11

I like to just shoot things, but

7:13

also we both like kittens. It's about

7:15

finding the commonality in an unexpected place.

7:18

So whereas a meet-cut is, I never

7:20

thought I would meet you here today,

7:22

in a buddy film, I think it's

7:25

more like, I never thought I would

7:27

find anything interesting about you who I

7:29

have already met. Or any respect for

7:31

you in some way. So there's this

7:34

theory that my mother-in-law has, which I

7:36

call the co-all relationship axes based on

7:38

her. I was dating advice that she

7:41

gave to my husband, but it's great

7:43

for characters, which is that if you

7:45

think about these as sliders, the more

7:48

things you have in common, the greater

7:50

your compatibility is. So it's mind, money,

7:52

morals, manners, monogamy, and mirth. So mind

7:54

is that the closer they are in

7:57

intelligence, the more compatible they are. Money,

7:59

same opinion. about money,

8:01

what it's used for, not necessarily

8:03

the same amount of money. Morals,

8:05

the same ideas of what is

8:08

right and wrong. Manors is the

8:10

same idea of what is polite,

8:12

correct behavior. So this is why

8:14

you can have someone that you

8:16

get along with, they're so charming

8:19

in person and terrible monsters on

8:21

the internet. Because there are morals

8:23

and morals are completely opposed, but

8:25

your manners are aligned. Monogamy is

8:27

not actually, you have to be

8:30

monogamous, but you have the same

8:32

idea of what the relationship is.

8:34

You all have had the person

8:36

that totally thinks that you're BFFS

8:39

and you're just like, we kind

8:41

of vaguely know each other. and

8:43

then mirth that you have the

8:45

same sense of humor. And so

8:47

you only have to tip one

8:50

of those off just a little

8:52

bit, one or two of them

8:54

off to have like major conflicts

8:56

and fractures. When you look at

8:58

Lizzy and Darcy, from Jane Austen's

9:01

Pred and Prejudice, they are actually

9:03

really closely aligned on pretty much

9:05

everything except manners, because of her

9:07

family, and a little bit on

9:09

mirth. And then when the proposal

9:12

scene happens, they're wildly disaligned on

9:14

monogamy. Excuse me while I spend

9:16

the rest of this episode having

9:18

a minor crisis about my last

9:20

few relationships. Sorry, well. Let me

9:23

ease your mind a little bit.

9:25

Okay? Where does one find a

9:27

meat cue these days? I've been

9:29

going to the park and it's

9:31

all on the internet. So to

9:34

ease your mind a little bit

9:36

because while this is true, I

9:38

also think that there is a

9:40

lot to be said for the

9:43

half orange. I talk about this

9:45

a lot in relationships. That what

9:47

a person, what a character really

9:49

needs is the other half of

9:51

themselves. And someone who completes them,

9:54

someone who has all the qualities

9:56

they don't have so that together

9:58

they are a single complete person.

10:00

you need to be aligned, you

10:02

need to think about some of

10:05

the things in the same way,

10:07

but also, you very specifically, I

10:09

think, need to have someone who

10:11

can do things you can't do,

10:13

who thinks of things in a

10:16

way that you don't. One of

10:18

the things that I love about

10:20

this is it does not talk

10:22

about personality. So, introvert-extrovert? Yeah, absolutely.

10:24

I completely agree with you that

10:27

you need someone who balances you,

10:29

that you need someone who balances

10:31

you, I think. The title of

10:33

this episode, Getting to Know You,

10:35

I'm ready to visit that in

10:38

a little more detail after our

10:40

break. Hey friends, the 2025 retreat

10:42

registration is open. We have two

10:44

amazing writing retreats coming up and

10:47

we cordially invite you to enroll

10:49

in them. For those of you

10:51

who sign up before January 12th,

10:53

2025, how is that even a

10:55

real date? We're off... As

11:03

you can probably hear my cat

11:05

say, we've got a special treat

11:07

for our friends. We're offering a

11:09

little something special to sweeten the

11:11

pot. You'll be able to join

11:14

several of my fellow writing excuses

11:16

hosts and me on a Zoom

11:18

early bird meet and greet call

11:20

to chit-chat, meet fellow writers, ask

11:22

questions, and get even more excited

11:24

about writing excuses retreats. To qualify

11:27

to join the early bird meet

11:29

and greet, all you need to

11:31

do is register to join a

11:33

writing excuses retreat. Either our regenerate

11:35

retreat in June or our annual

11:38

cruise in September 2025. Just register

11:40

by January 12th. Learn more at

11:42

writing excuses.com/retreats. Today I

11:44

want to talk to you about the

11:47

podcast, Ancient History Fan Girl. It's a

11:49

history podcast, and the hosts tell you

11:51

history through story. Ancient historical figures like

11:54

Julius Caesar, Cleopatra, Budica, and even the

11:56

mythological Kukolan have felt more like real

11:58

people to me as they did when

12:01

Jen and Jenny told me their stories

12:03

and brought them to life. They do

12:05

in-depth research and then weave it into

12:08

a fantastic way to learn more about

12:10

history. They have a lot of seasons

12:12

and episodes, so I suggest finding a

12:15

season or an arc that appeals to

12:17

you. I started with their Skithian episode

12:19

and I highly recommend it. You can

12:22

find them on any major podcast platforms

12:24

or at Ancient History fangirl.com. Water

12:27

damage is no joke. Did you know that water damage makes

12:29

up more than 25% of all home

12:31

insurance claims? And the average claim costs over $13,000? Don't

12:35

let a small leak turn into

12:37

a big expense. Learn more at

12:39

go.pemco.com/no joke. Pemco Mutual Insurance Company,

12:42

Seattle. So

12:58

getting to know you, there

13:01

are two aspects to this.

13:03

One is the characters growing

13:05

in character knowledge about each

13:08

other, and the other is

13:10

the reader gaining knowledge about

13:12

these characters. And you have

13:15

to pull off both. You

13:17

can't just say, You know,

13:19

A, now knew all about

13:22

B, you have to give

13:24

the reader something to chew

13:26

on, something to enjoy. I

13:30

have a tool for that, which is looking

13:32

at the escalation, the arc of the relationship.

13:34

One of the reasons that the Meet Cute

13:36

works is that it is the disruption of

13:38

the normal going back to our thriller episode.

13:40

But there's this other thing called Dream, which

13:42

I learned from Elizabeth Boyle, Denial Resistance Exploration

13:44

Acceptance and Manifestation. So this is the arc

13:46

that a person goes She got got

13:48

it from an anger

13:50

management class but then

13:52

class a romance writer a

13:55

she's like oh this

13:57

is the oh building

13:59

block of every romance

14:01

ever ever. So denial is that they deny

14:03

is that they deny

14:05

that there's any kind

14:07

of problem at all

14:09

And what you do

14:11

is you pick an

14:13

externalization of that of pick

14:15

an action that the

14:17

character takes takes which

14:19

they are clinging to that original identity

14:21

and it's like and who would go out

14:23

with would go out with him? You know,

14:26

and so make very, they're they're gonna be at

14:28

what? at No, I'm definitely not going to that.

14:30

not going to action do they

14:32

take? do they And then resistance,

14:34

that's when you when you, you that. that,

14:36

okay, I see I see why some people find him

14:39

attractive, but I would never date him. would never date

14:41

him. is where you start

14:43

to think about it just

14:45

a little bit. All right, right,

14:47

well, maybe one date. And then acceptance

14:49

is, oh no, I've been left. And

14:53

then matrimony is what you do with

14:55

that, excuse me, a me, is what what you

14:57

do with that. In that. a classic

14:59

romance, it's matrimony. But if you

15:01

think about the end of of Casablanca, when

15:03

realizes that he is that he is in

15:05

love with that she's and that she's still

15:07

in love with him, his and his

15:09

manifestation is not matrimony, it's to off

15:11

her off and to take himself

15:14

away, because that is actually what's best

15:16

for everybody that's involved. So what

15:18

you do with that knowledge, the action

15:20

that you take, and what's fun and

15:22

what's that you can go through this

15:24

cycle multiple times in a single book. cycle

15:26

What I see people do a lot

15:28

is that the characters will just hang

15:30

out in denial and then suddenly they

15:33

get married. the characters will I found

15:35

that, out in denial and then

15:37

suddenly they get years

15:39

of being married of

15:41

probably taught me

15:43

some of this, taught me

15:45

some of this. of of... one

15:49

understanding of another. of

15:51

another are are usually, usually.

15:54

take the shape of actions.

15:56

of actions. I mean, okay, blow my own

15:58

my own horn little. bit here.

16:00

The whole cast went out falconing

16:03

in the cold except for me

16:05

and I made a point of

16:07

arriving at the house with hot

16:10

drinks because I knew everyone would

16:12

be cold. You were correct. Was

16:14

that thoughtful? Well, okay, yes, sure,

16:17

but the fact that I was

16:19

thinking about these other people and

16:21

had an idea of what they

16:23

would need And the

16:26

fact that, uh, the fact that

16:28

they trusted me to bring something

16:30

that they could drink, that gives

16:33

us a picture of a relationship.

16:35

Wow, these people are friends. These,

16:38

they like each other in a

16:40

way that us saying, oh, thank

16:42

you so much for the stuff.

16:45

Oh, you're welcome. Just doesn't. Having

16:48

covered some of the tools, can

16:50

we dive into another one of

16:52

the classic tropes of the category?

16:54

Yes. So one of my favorite

16:57

setups is always the enemies or

16:59

rivals who are caught in each

17:01

other's orbit who have to build

17:03

a relationship grow to some kind

17:05

of understanding or accord by the

17:07

end, if not full-on romance. And

17:09

to me, this is always such

17:11

an interesting dynamic because you, you

17:13

know, as we were talking about,

17:15

you need to have the understanding

17:17

between the characters, but you also

17:19

need the audience understanding of these

17:21

individuals as well. And so often,

17:24

one is more in focus than

17:26

the other, so we're getting the

17:28

perspective of our protagonist and only

17:30

bit by bit are we learning

17:32

more information about the rival to

17:34

begin to understand where they come

17:36

from and why they are. So

17:38

it's almost like building the romance.

17:40

for the reader in addition to

17:42

building the romance for the character.

17:44

Because initially we're like, well, that

17:46

person's a jerk. They're being so

17:49

mean to the person I like.

17:51

They might be hot, but like,

17:53

I hate them. And so learning

17:55

bit by a bit why we

17:57

could respect them or be interested

17:59

in them, I think is one

18:01

of the delicious parts of this

18:03

category. Yeah, you can also use

18:05

other characters as a foil there.

18:07

So it's like you've got the

18:09

rival who's a jerk, but they

18:11

you've got like the truly evil,

18:14

like not even rival, like person

18:16

who makes the rival seem like,

18:18

well, they, I don't agree with

18:20

their tactics maybe, but at least

18:22

I understand where they're coming from,

18:24

unlike this new person. It's one

18:26

of the things I loved growing

18:28

up, watching soap operas, was that

18:30

there are always characters in different

18:32

stages of romance, so that you

18:34

always, there's always, so you know,

18:36

like when you see two. people

18:39

interacting, you're like, oh, this fits

18:41

into this type of romance. I'm

18:43

not going to mistake this couple

18:45

falling in love for a married

18:47

couple because I have another example

18:49

on the page. And it's also

18:51

a way to give you something

18:53

like, oh, this is something for

18:55

this new couple to aim for.

18:57

So I'm excited to see them

18:59

make this journey down the line.

19:01

Yeah, and one of the things

19:04

that I think that goes with

19:06

that with the couple that's making

19:08

the journey tying back into what

19:10

you were talking about with the

19:12

the friends to lovers or variations

19:14

of that is that there's there's

19:16

always some like catalyst action that

19:18

is happening. And there's a point

19:20

at which there's a point at

19:22

which everything gets recontextualized for the

19:24

POV character. where they've been watching

19:26

this thing happening and then they're

19:29

suddenly like, oh, this person that

19:31

I thought was an asshole is

19:33

actually leaving abruptly because he's taking

19:35

care of his aging mother. Or,

19:37

you know, when, again, Darcy and

19:39

Elizabeth, when she suddenly realizes the

19:41

reason he's been such a jerk

19:43

to Wickham is because of his

19:45

history with his sister. And that's

19:47

like recontextualizes every interaction that she's

19:49

had with them up to that

19:51

point. And that's one of my

19:53

favorite things is that recontextualization. One

19:56

of the things that I love

19:58

about this type of relationship, at

20:00

least for me, it's one of

20:02

the things that separates it from

20:04

odd couple. Odd couple is these

20:06

two people, their personalities clash. One

20:08

of them's. one of them is

20:10

clean, whatever it is. Whereas kind

20:12

of enemies and rivals, there are

20:14

enemies to lovers. They are specifically

20:16

opposed to each other. And they

20:18

are trying to one up each

20:21

other, or they're trying to attack

20:23

each other, or whatever it is.

20:25

And what that allows you to

20:27

do is crank the competence of

20:29

both characters way, way up. Higher

20:31

than you could do in a

20:33

lot or most other relationships. And

20:35

that helps build that reader attachment.

20:37

We don't like this person. but

20:39

we also kind of really love

20:41

this person because they are so

20:43

good at being terrible that when

20:46

you get to whatever point midway

20:48

or two-thirds of the way through

20:50

the story where suddenly they find

20:52

themselves on the same side, we

20:54

know that they're going to be

20:56

an incredible team because we've watched

20:58

them be incredible on their own.

21:00

Now let's say for a moment

21:02

that you're not writing a buddy

21:04

show, you're not writing a romance,

21:06

you are writing horror, you are

21:08

writing a thriller, you are writing

21:11

a mystery. All of these tools

21:13

apply and you can go all

21:15

Jordi Laforge and flip the polarity

21:17

and have the trope be allies

21:19

to enemies and it works exactly

21:21

the same way. The more they

21:23

learn about each other, there's a

21:25

twist, there's a reveal, and now

21:27

we have a broken relationship at

21:29

the end. Yeah. Yeah,

21:31

it's funny thinking about when you

21:34

were mentioning the genres, I was

21:36

thinking, you know, fantasy and science

21:38

fiction, I think character relationships and

21:40

dynamics are really at the heart

21:42

of a lot of the classics,

21:45

like your crew that's going out

21:47

into space, like, how do they

21:49

get along with each other? This

21:51

person doesn't quite like this person,

21:53

but they accept that they're watching

21:56

this. happening and then they're suddenly

21:58

like, oh, this person that I

22:00

thought was an asshole is actually

22:02

leaving abruptly because he's taking care

22:04

of his aging mother. Or, you

22:06

know, when, again, Darcy and Elizabeth,

22:09

when she suddenly realizes the reason

22:11

he's been such a jerk to

22:13

Wickham is because of his, of

22:15

his, the history, the history with

22:17

his sister. And that's like recontextualizes

22:20

every interaction that she's happened. That's

22:22

a good time for what's going

22:24

on in their relationship. Is there

22:26

a small thing that can happen,

22:28

that can make two people grow

22:31

closer together or further apart, then

22:33

makes your story like, come alive

22:35

to you a little bit as

22:37

you explore how they like each

22:39

other or don't? I think that

22:42

that brings us to our homework.

22:44

So your homework for this week

22:46

is in this scene, the one

22:48

that you're working on right now,

22:50

what is something that your character

22:53

finds attractive about the other person

22:55

in the scene? And note, this

22:57

does not need to be a

22:59

romantic attraction. And then the other

23:01

thing is, what does your character

23:03

think is their own least attractive

23:06

trait and how can you make

23:08

them more anxious about that right

23:10

now? This has been writing excuses.

23:12

You're out of excuses. Now go

23:14

right. Have you ever wanted to

23:17

ask one of the writing excuses

23:19

hosts for very specific, very you-focused

23:21

help? There's an offering on the

23:23

writing excuses patron that will let

23:25

you do exactly that. The private

23:28

instruction tier includes everything from the

23:30

lower tiers, plus a quarterly one-on-one

23:32

zoom meeting with a host of

23:34

your choice. You might choose, for

23:36

example, to work with me on

23:39

your humorous prose. Engage Dong-Wan's expertise

23:41

on your world building. Or study

23:43

with Aaron to level up your

23:45

game writing. Visit patreon.com/writing excuses for

23:47

more details. Writing excuses has been

23:49

brought to you by our listeners,

23:52

patrons, and friends. For this episode,

23:54

your hosts were Mary Robinette Kowal,

23:56

Donguan Song. Roberts, Dan

23:58

and Howard Taylor. This

24:00

This episode was

24:03

engineered by Marshal