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1:02

Excuses. Season 20,

1:04

episode 14. This is Writing

1:06

Excuses. Third Person Limited.

1:08

I'm Mary Robinette.

1:11

I'm Aaron. I'm Donguan. I'm

1:13

Dan. I'm Dan. And I'm Howard.

1:15

And I'm really excited to talk

1:17

a little bit today about the

1:19

third person limited point of view

1:21

as part of our little mini

1:24

course, mini set of episodes on

1:26

proximity. And the one reason I'm like

1:28

most excited about this is I

1:30

feel like this is one of

1:32

the terms in writing that is

1:34

used the most and understood the

1:36

least. Like a fellow. a moment

1:38

to learn, a lifetime to master.

1:40

So I am going to attempt

1:42

to explain, like, at its very

1:44

basic, like, what do we even mean

1:47

when we say third person limited? And

1:49

then I'm going to invite all of

1:51

you to tell me what I'm missing

1:53

and why I'm wrong. So on its

1:55

very basic level, when you use

1:58

first person, you are using I.

2:00

You're using like the pronoun I

2:02

to describe everything that is happening.

2:04

When you use third person of

2:06

any type, you use he, she,

2:08

somebody's name, they, you're using a

2:10

pronoun that is the third person.

2:12

That is why it's called third

2:14

person. So instead of saying, I

2:17

watched as all the podcasters stared

2:19

me down, waiting for me to

2:21

finish speaking, it would be Aaron

2:23

observe the other, you know, podcasters

2:25

as da da da da. And

2:27

limited is that you are limited

2:29

to a specific point of view

2:31

at any one time. Unlike omniscient,

2:33

which we will get to in

2:35

the next episode, you can't see

2:38

everybody's thoughts all at once, you

2:40

were sort of following one particular

2:42

person at any distance that you

2:44

want, and we'll get into that

2:46

later. But that's what I think

2:48

of at the very basics. What

2:50

am I missing? Why am I

2:52

wrong? I'm not going to tell

2:54

you why you're wrong, but I

2:57

am going to ask you a

2:59

question. Yes. Which is, do you

3:01

think third person limited and third

3:03

person close or the same thing?

3:05

Or is there a distinction between

3:07

those two things? I would personally

3:09

say that there's a difference. So

3:11

I think that you can be

3:13

at any distance and still be

3:15

limited. I mean, at a certain

3:18

point it's hard to be limited.

3:20

A lot of times the metaphor

3:22

we use for third person limited

3:24

or third person close is the

3:26

camera. Right. So it's like you're

3:28

the same. of whatever character, but

3:30

you can be right up on

3:32

their shoulder and you can actually

3:34

get a little bit of a

3:37

distance away. It's like third person

3:39

action game versus Mario, you know,

3:41

like that. Third person, third person

3:43

limited. contains third-person clothes. Exactly. But

3:45

you could be third-person limited, but

3:47

have this 10,000-foot view where I

3:49

have no access to errands interiority,

3:51

I can just hear moving to

3:53

the landscape. Raymond Chandler does this

3:56

a lot. Yes. Like where you're

3:58

with one character, you only see

4:00

the things that they see and

4:02

the movements that they have, but

4:04

you have absolutely no access to

4:06

their thoughts. Because the interiority of

4:08

people is a mystery in his

4:10

books. Yeah. The example that I

4:12

use when I'm trying to explain,

4:14

limited and omniscientician. You know, Aaron

4:17

sat across from the podcasters and

4:19

Howard looked like he had indigestion.

4:21

Okay, that's limited because Aaron can

4:23

tell that I'm making a face

4:25

and she's passing judgment on what

4:27

my face is. Omniscient would be

4:29

Aaron sat across from the podcasters.

4:31

Howard was thinking about and then

4:33

you state my thought explicitly and

4:36

now. You know, we were in

4:38

Aaron's head and then suddenly we're

4:40

in Howard's head and that's not

4:42

something Aaron can be, we hope.

4:44

Yeah, another example of that, which

4:46

not necessarily a good one, but

4:48

it's like, you know, Aaron sat

4:50

there looking at Howard's face and

4:52

thought that perhaps he'd had indigestion.

4:54

Howard had had 16 eggs this

4:57

morning, you know, and as they

4:59

worked their way through, you know,

5:01

his system, he hoped that no

5:03

one would notice he was wrong.

5:05

You know, like... Oh, this is

5:07

going to make a noise. Yes,

5:09

and I'm looking forward to when

5:11

we talk about... That's third person

5:13

omnivorous. Oh, Howard. I am looking

5:16

forward to when we talk about

5:18

omniscient. But one of the things

5:20

that I will say with third

5:22

person limited is that you don't,

5:24

I think one of the things

5:26

you're missing potentially is that you

5:28

can do third person limited and

5:30

move to different characters, POVs and

5:32

different scenes. And arguably you can

5:35

also move to their POVs within

5:37

a single scene. It's when you

5:39

move back and forth that I

5:41

think that you've shifted over to

5:43

our missions. Yeah, which is not

5:45

a flaw. It's just a different

5:47

mode. But I'm thinking specifically of

5:49

a scene in Ender's Game where

5:51

the camera arrives with Ender into

5:53

a scene and then Ender leaves.

5:56

We're still in the scene. There's

5:58

no scene break. but we stay

6:00

with Bean's character. And so it's

6:02

a through scene. There's no scene

6:04

break. But it is still third

6:06

person limited, even though we haven't

6:08

done that hard break. I love

6:10

when you do a little bit

6:12

of that sliding from one POV

6:15

to another and then back without

6:17

dropping into the head hopping. You

6:19

know, there's an example I think

6:21

of from one of Robert Jackson

6:23

Bennett's books, the first of the,

6:25

or founder side. where a character

6:27

is like sneaking into a facility

6:29

and we just slide into the

6:31

Guard's POV for a minute and

6:33

see them sneaking past from the

6:36

Guard's POV and then slide back

6:38

to the protagonist again. And it

6:40

never feels omniscient, it never feels

6:42

like we're knowing more than like,

6:44

you know, what the individual characters

6:46

experience, but that fluidity that you

6:48

can have and limited I think

6:50

is really, really fun. Yeah, and

6:52

I think that in that case,

6:55

For me, what's happening is that

6:57

he has gone to a different

6:59

scene, but has chosen to do

7:01

what I call a through scene

7:03

as opposed to a scene break.

7:05

So follow-up question on this, because

7:07

I think like head-hopping, a lot

7:09

of times when people say head-hopping,

7:11

they're talking about being an omniscient

7:14

and going from one character to

7:16

the other in a somewhat frantic

7:18

way in which you don't know

7:20

who you're even following or what's

7:22

happening. But head hopping can also

7:24

be used if you switch like

7:26

abruptly from one limited perspective to

7:28

another. I've seen that critique used

7:30

for that as well. How do

7:32

you make it feel like a

7:35

slide and not a hop? Like

7:37

how do you actually make it

7:39

feel like it's been passed off

7:41

an effective way that you can

7:43

follow versus that you're like jarring

7:45

the audience? I really think about

7:47

it in filmic terms and I

7:49

think about sight lines, right? So

7:51

the example I just gave. of,

7:54

you know, moving from the thief

7:56

to the guard and back is

7:58

because you have the thief, the

8:00

thief looks, sees the guard, now

8:02

we're in the guard, the guard

8:04

does their things, thief sinks by,

8:06

guard notices something has passed, and

8:08

then now we're back. the theme,

8:10

right? So you need a hand-off

8:12

transition every time you're going to

8:15

make that slide as literally thinking

8:17

for me about the camera moving

8:19

with the perspective of the reader.

8:21

I have a similar framing. For

8:23

me it's about thresholds, which is

8:25

I think the same thing with

8:27

the sight lines that it is

8:29

about the, for me, the distinction

8:31

between that and omniscient. is that

8:34

there is a reason that both

8:36

characters are not actually in the

8:38

same place at the same time.

8:40

Like the example that I gave,

8:42

where one character literally leaves the

8:44

room and the camera stays with

8:46

where we are, whereas in omniscient,

8:48

you would be able to visit

8:50

everybody's head within a single room,

8:53

and you would be sign posting,

8:55

and now we're going over to

8:57

this person. Jane Austin does this.

8:59

I mean... She was extremely good,

9:01

which is why her works are

9:03

still a classic. But there's this

9:05

one scene where two characters believe

9:07

that they're having the same conversation

9:09

and they're having different conversations and

9:11

you only know that they're having

9:14

different conversations because she goes from

9:16

one character to the other and

9:18

she's signposting by telling us who's

9:20

head she's going into before we

9:22

get the thought. But it is

9:24

all within one thing, and then

9:26

she also comments on other things

9:28

that are outside of that room

9:30

that none of the characters would

9:33

have access to. So for me,

9:35

it's all about what the characters

9:37

have access to and the thresholds

9:39

that we cross. I'm wondering as

9:41

well if this goes back to

9:43

our discussion of close and far

9:45

perspective. that the closer the perspective

9:47

is, the more it's going to

9:49

feel like head-hopping because you are

9:51

getting more of those inner thoughts.

9:54

You're getting more of that internality.

9:56

Whereas, you know, in this case

9:58

with the guard watching for the

10:00

thief... You're not getting a really

10:02

deep examination of

10:04

who they are as a person. Yeah.

10:07

It's also, I want to

10:09

say that this is going

10:11

back, this is a fashion

10:13

thing. In science fiction and

10:15

fantasy, it is in fashion

10:18

to either use first person

10:20

or third limited. But

10:22

when you go over to

10:24

romance, often you do get...

10:26

POVs, you do go back

10:29

and forth between the two

10:31

POVs. And I'm going to

10:33

back away from what I

10:35

had said earlier about that

10:38

not being third limited, because

10:40

it's usually only two characters.

10:42

The hero and the heroine,

10:44

or the hero and hero,

10:47

depending on which slash we're in.

10:49

But often you do get both

10:51

of their POVs within a single

10:53

scene. It's just that in science

10:55

fiction and fantasy at some point

10:58

people decided that this was bad

11:00

and they put a label on

11:02

it called head hopping as opposed

11:04

to controlling point of view. Even

11:07

if you are limiting yourself to

11:09

only two people, it's still a

11:11

limitation. It's still not an omniscient

11:13

because you aren't giving the reader

11:16

access to any information that those

11:18

two characters don't have. Well, and

11:20

I think it's worth pointing out that...

11:22

This is one of those cases where

11:24

anything you can make work works, right?

11:27

Like, just because the label has

11:29

been given that certain aspects of this

11:31

are good or bad, if you can

11:33

make it work, then it works. If

11:35

you can jump, excuse me, if you

11:37

can jump between heads, between characters,

11:39

even if it's head hopping, as

11:42

long as the reader is always

11:44

very clear about what's going on

11:46

and they know whose head they're

11:48

in and they know what perspective

11:51

they're getting, then it works. See, and

11:53

I don't, I, I don't personally use

11:55

head hopping as a way

11:57

to denigrate anything. I say,

12:00

I, unless I'm saying you're trying to

12:02

do third person limited, third person

12:04

close, and I think you may

12:06

be unintentionally head hopping, just to

12:08

describe what's going on, but I

12:10

think you can head hop on

12:12

purpose and make it work very

12:14

well. Yeah, and we'll talk about

12:16

how to do that when we

12:18

get to omniscient for sure. Aaron

12:20

had another thought, but realized that

12:22

it was time for the podcast

12:24

to take a break. Hey, guess

12:27

what? The 2025 Writing Excuses Cruise

12:29

is over 50% sold out. During

12:31

this week-long master class, I'm going

12:33

to be leading writers like yourself

12:35

through a series of workshops designed

12:37

to give you the tools to

12:39

take your writing to the next

12:41

level. Space is limited, but there

12:43

is still time to secure your

12:45

spot. We're going to be sailing

12:47

out of Los Angeles from September

12:49

18th through 26th, regardless of where

12:51

you are in your writing journey.

12:53

This event is your opportunity to

12:55

learn new skills while exploring the

12:58

beautiful Mexican Riviera. Whether you're revising

13:00

a story, reworking a character arc,

13:02

or revitalizing your plot, you'll leave

13:04

more confident in your current story

13:06

and bolstered by a new set

13:08

of friends. Join us on board

13:10

at writing excuses.com/retreats. All right,

13:12

back now, because one thing that

13:15

we talked about earlier, I think

13:17

we're talking a lot about in

13:19

talking about head hopping and the

13:21

difference between limited and omniscient, we're

13:24

talking a little bit about, I

13:26

think, slightly more distanced. One of

13:28

the questions I now have is,

13:30

what is the difference, like what

13:33

is the threshold other than the

13:35

use of pronouns between first person

13:37

and third person very close, very

13:39

limited? Like, is there something that

13:42

for you distinguishes it or could

13:44

you take a first-person piece, turn

13:46

all the eyes to she's, and

13:48

not have to change anything else

13:51

in order to make that story

13:53

work? No. All right, well, there

13:55

we go. Yes, because I've done

13:57

it. I've had pieces that I

14:00

wrote originally in third person. It

14:02

moved to first, and I've had

14:04

pieces that I've written in first

14:06

person. to move to third. The

14:09

biggest thing for me is that

14:11

in first person, the degree to

14:13

which I get the character's thoughts

14:15

is significantly higher than it is

14:18

in third. And I have, you

14:20

can get away with it for

14:22

part of a scene, sometimes even

14:24

a full scene, but there are

14:27

times when In first person, if

14:29

I do not get the character's

14:31

full emotional reaction, I will feel

14:33

cheated as a reader. And because

14:36

that's one of the things I

14:38

sign up for when I'm in

14:40

first person is to be all

14:42

the way in that character's head.

14:45

Whereas third person, I am okay

14:47

with selective access to their head.

14:49

Sometimes I get a direct thought.

14:51

which is either written in quotes

14:54

or italics. So these are the

14:56

words that exactly are what the

14:58

character is thinking. Sometimes it is

15:00

free indirect speech, which is where

15:03

the character's thought has just been

15:05

transported into being part of the

15:07

narration. So like, instead of saying,

15:09

Mary Robinette sat in the podcast

15:12

and thought I have to remember

15:14

I have to pack my luggage

15:16

during our break I would do

15:18

something more like Mary Robinette sat

15:21

in the podcast She needed to

15:23

remember that she had to pack

15:25

her luggage during her break and

15:27

I would just put it into

15:30

part of the narration, but it

15:32

does create a little bit of

15:34

a more of a distance and

15:36

that for me is one of

15:39

the differences between first and third

15:41

is that being all the way

15:43

into the character's head? For me,

15:45

one of the big differences between

15:48

first and third, beyond, I mean,

15:50

everything that you've said tracks beautifully,

15:52

but if I'm in third limited,

15:54

it's... usually because I want to

15:57

follow two or more characters. And

15:59

the high bar for me, for

16:01

Third Limited, is for each of

16:03

those narrative voices to sound different.

16:06

Whereas, you know, in first person,

16:08

your narrator should sound fairly consistent,

16:10

unless the character undergoes some really

16:12

huge change. that reaches all the

16:15

way into their voice, whereas in

16:17

Third Limited, I like to be

16:19

able to tell who's seen it

16:21

is. By halfway through the book,

16:24

I want to be able to

16:26

tell who's seen it is without

16:28

you telling me their name, because

16:30

the voice, I'm now familiar enough

16:33

with that voice that you've telegraphed

16:35

it to me. I will say

16:37

the other thing that I thought

16:39

about as you were talking is

16:42

that... One of the tools that

16:44

Third Limited offers me that I

16:46

do not get from first person

16:48

is that I can have a

16:51

contrast between the narration and the

16:53

character, which can be extremely powerful

16:55

tool sometimes, especially when you've got

16:57

a character that is lying to

17:00

themselves or is on a journey

17:02

that they haven't yet figured out

17:04

that they're on, that sometimes I

17:06

can... I can let the reader

17:09

in on what that is in

17:11

ways that I cannot do in

17:13

first person. So I think third

17:15

limited close is sort of the

17:18

default voice for commercial fiction these

17:20

days, right? In a lot of

17:22

ways, there's a ton of first

17:24

person that's, you know, rising in

17:27

certain sectors. You still see third

17:29

omniscient, but like, what we think

17:31

of as transparent pro, so we

17:33

think of like the dominant voice

17:36

in adult commercial fiction. tends to

17:38

be this third limited perspective, especially

17:40

fairly close in. I think this

17:42

is kind of driven by a

17:45

lot of the visual media would

17:47

consume, you know, movies are like

17:49

this, video games are like this.

17:51

It's just like you're, because we

17:54

don't actually know what a character's

17:56

thinking, you're just like... right up

17:58

on them and sort of observing

18:00

the world as they go through

18:03

it as the camera follows them

18:05

literally in the case of a TV show.

18:07

I think that has really sort of shaped

18:09

how we think of it. And because of

18:11

some of the things you're saying of having

18:14

the ability to have the narration

18:16

come in and the narrator have

18:18

a different perspective than the character,

18:20

but still being very close to

18:22

one or a very small number

18:24

of characters, kind of gives the

18:26

easiest lift in terms of communicating

18:28

a lot of information to the

18:30

reader using the fewest tools possible

18:32

that require the least sort of

18:34

like mental weight. There's always a, I

18:36

talked about this a little bit on the

18:38

last episode, but there is a little bit

18:40

of a mental lift when reading first person

18:43

for a lot of readers that I think

18:45

is a very small threshold that people can

18:47

cross that they are sometimes reluctant to. But

18:49

you know, it's the use of third person

18:52

limited close, I think. If you're looking for

18:54

where's my default starting point, it's a

18:56

really useful one to at least try

18:58

that and sort of see if that

19:01

solves any prospective problems you're having and

19:03

then expand out from there into, oh

19:05

wait, maybe this should be first person,

19:07

I need more interiority, or I want

19:10

that deep subjectivity of the character, or

19:12

I'm feeling really claostrophobic, maybe I should

19:14

step back in omnision and expand out

19:16

more from here. But starting with third

19:18

close, really, I think is a great.

19:21

default position to start from. I think

19:23

I love all that and I think it's

19:25

interesting for me to hear because I think

19:27

one of the reasons I ask the question

19:29

is I actually find when I write that

19:31

my third person limited is fairly close to

19:34

first like I believe I do a lot

19:36

of third person limited that has like full

19:38

interiority in a case we've never said what

19:40

we mean by interiority it's like how much

19:42

are you getting from inside the character's mind

19:44

my third person limited often uses the same

19:46

cadences of thought that first person would use

19:49

like the same. There's usually not a lot

19:51

of distinction. And so I was like, well,

19:53

why do you know, what is the difference

19:55

for me? And I love everything y'all have

19:57

said. And I also, for me, I'm thinking

19:59

that that some of it has to

20:01

do with, is there something like, is

20:04

there ever a time when I'm going

20:06

to want to go into another character,

20:08

which I cannot do in first, easily?

20:11

For some reason, I find it harder

20:13

to switch from one character, another, and

20:15

first, because first is very immersive, it's

20:17

like, it feels like a lot of

20:20

work, like it's something you can do,

20:22

maybe chapter to chapter, but it's harder

20:24

to do, like, scene to scene, that

20:27

the character wouldn't fully get into? Or

20:29

is it like my intent is for

20:31

you to feel like the character is

20:34

being observed versus experienced? And that one's

20:36

a hard one because I feel like

20:38

it's very like, you just know, like,

20:40

you know, when you know, like pornography,

20:43

when you know it, when you see

20:45

it. But the famous Supreme Court case

20:47

said that. So it's like, I'm thinking

20:50

about, like, is it... Yeah, it's like,

20:52

is it something where I want you

20:54

to feel like you're within this character's

20:56

mind? Or do you, I want you

20:59

to feel like you are just a

21:01

fly, you know, on their shoulder being

21:03

like, oh my gosh, what is this

21:06

character getting themselves into, even if you're

21:08

close enough to hear them whisper every

21:10

thought to you? And to eat the

21:12

crumbs off their shoulder with your little

21:15

mandamus. I had a character head PTSD

21:17

and I knew that I was going

21:19

to be dealing with some flashbacks and

21:22

not like a brief insertion into the

21:24

middle of a scene but a full-on

21:26

like confusion dementia sequence and being all

21:28

the way in their head so that

21:31

I wasn't as they are disassociating it

21:33

was just it was just it was

21:35

conveying the sensation of disassociating in first

21:38

person is significantly easier than it is

21:40

in third because that distance, that narrative

21:42

distance already exists because I'm observing the

21:44

person, distancing it further, it's not as

21:47

visceral when you distance it further. So

21:49

when I got to those scenes where

21:51

she's disassociating, I wrote it as if

21:54

it was third person, but used the

21:56

eye, so, and I used all of

21:58

the reporting words that we try to

22:01

avoid in third person, like, I noticed

22:03

that I was. I watched my body

22:05

do this thing. And that was a

22:07

technique and a tool that I could

22:10

only use because I was in first

22:12

person. I love that you called out

22:14

those distancing, I call them distancing words

22:17

like watched looked, she looked at versus

22:19

just saying like what the person actually

22:21

saw because I think that's a really

22:23

interesting. They have their absolute place. Like

22:26

there is a time in which you

22:28

want to be calling attention to the

22:30

act of seeing, you know, whether it

22:33

is dissociation or somebody who is like

22:35

at the wall of a party and

22:37

all that they are doing noticing is

22:39

the action that they are taking. Yeah,

22:42

a spy is going to be, I

22:44

watched this. Exactly, but somebody who's not

22:46

a spy, you might be like, well,

22:49

the watching brings one more layer between

22:51

you and the actual thing that's going

22:53

on, which I think is such a...

22:55

a fun thing to play with. And

22:58

another thing where I think like head

23:00

hopping, sometimes people will say this doesn't

23:02

work. And I think what they really

23:05

mean or should say is this has

23:07

its place. Is this the place for

23:09

it? Yeah. I just want to jump

23:11

in really quick and point out that

23:14

I have seen books very successfully jump

23:16

between third and first. Yes. One of

23:18

my favorite books is House of the

23:21

Spirits by Isabelle Yende, which is about

23:23

half and half. And the way that

23:25

she makes that work and makes it

23:28

always obvious what you're what you're hearing

23:30

and what you're listening to is it

23:32

is the first person is one specific

23:34

character and And every scene that does

23:37

not have that character in it is

23:39

third person. Yeah, when general comes to

23:41

these POV conversations, you know, but again,

23:44

we're giving you tools, not rules, is

23:46

the thing to remember. I think a

23:48

lot of people get so prescriptive when

23:50

that comes to talking about whether you're

23:53

using third person limited, are you, it's

23:55

like if you're third person limited close

23:57

and then you go, you zoom out

24:00

for a second. They're like, oh, you

24:02

zoom out for a second. What are

24:04

you talking about? If it worked in

24:06

the scene, I worked in the scene,

24:09

you know what I mean? I'm not

24:11

going to remember two chapters later that

24:13

like you stepped 10 feet away from

24:16

the character for one moment, you know.

24:18

Or like what Dan's saying in terms

24:20

of mixing first person and third person,

24:22

that's absolutely a thing that you can

24:25

do. You can even jump to omniscient

24:27

for a second and then drop back

24:29

into third person limited. I think what

24:32

we're giving you are ways in which

24:34

you can use proximity to your character's

24:36

perspective. as tools, and I encourage you

24:38

to find exciting ways to use those

24:41

tools, moment to moment, rather than book

24:43

to book. And I know we're running

24:45

a little long, but I just want

24:48

to, I love this point because I

24:50

just want to underline it that some

24:52

of the things that I've seen that

24:55

are extremely effective in scenes are when

24:57

perspective shifts. If you suddenly pull back

24:59

the camera, like all of a sudden,

25:01

you're saying something, you're doing it on

25:04

purpose, you're doing it intentionally. There's something

25:06

you want us to see from further

25:08

away. if you're a little bit further

25:11

away and you suddenly, like, kind of

25:13

zoom into one character's perspective, maybe it's

25:15

because they're having a moment of deep

25:17

emotion where that's the only thing that

25:20

the story can contain at that moment.

25:22

And that brings us to the homework,

25:24

which is to take a scene that

25:27

you've written and write it in the

25:29

closest third person limited, you can possibly

25:31

stand, and get right up in there,

25:33

and then write it again at a

25:36

slightly more distance, but still limited third

25:38

person. Look at those two scenes side

25:40

by side and then say, what did

25:43

I do differently in one than the

25:45

other? What did I emphasize and figure

25:47

out from that which perspective? if

25:49

you want to

25:52

use to actually writing

25:54

the scene. the scene. This

25:56

has been Writing Excuses.

25:59

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