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I'm Gunjan Banerji, lead writer

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Inside the Wall Street Journal's

1:01

newsroom, about markets, finance, business,

1:03

all that interesting stuff. So we are

1:05

going to dive into a conversation about

1:07

sports and investing in sports later

1:09

on the show. We'll get to

1:11

a conversation we had last week

1:13

with Chris Moranji. He's a co-chief

1:15

investment officer of value at Gabelli

1:18

Funds and I'm really excited for

1:20

this one. But before we do that

1:22

though, I have to ask you about the big

1:24

market news of the week, and that is

1:26

Deep Seek. I will be honest, I

1:28

had not heard of Deep Seek before a

1:30

few days ago, but now of course it

1:32

is the driving force in the

1:34

market. Gungen, what is going on? Are

1:36

we having a dot-com bust moment here?

1:38

Is that the action that we've seen in

1:41

the market? Is it that dramatic? When I

1:43

was on the phone with investors over the

1:45

past week, I heard a lot of unease.

1:47

I think a fair share of them said,

1:49

hey, we think people are going to come

1:52

back in, we think they're going to buy

1:54

the dip. And then I heard others who said,

1:56

what if this is a turning point? We just

1:58

saw the peak of the AI. boom play out

2:00

right before us. Maybe there are

2:02

kind of conflicting economic things coming

2:04

out of this, right? On the

2:06

one hand, okay, what if companies

2:09

aren't going to spend the money

2:11

that they were expecting to, right?

2:13

And for now, you know, we

2:15

did have reports from meta and

2:17

from Microsoft. They both are continuing

2:19

to spend that money, so for

2:21

now they're not saying, okay, wrap

2:23

it up, we're done. And also,

2:25

and this is kind of the

2:27

paradox effect people we're talking about,

2:29

if AI is really cheaper. than

2:31

we thought it was, doesn't that

2:33

pull forward a lot of the

2:35

economic and productivity gains and maybe

2:37

some of the job losses? Should

2:39

we be more bullish? Exactly, if

2:41

AI is... We've gone ahead and

2:43

skipped the like middle stage of

2:45

like it getting slowly cheaper, did

2:47

it fast, are we looking at

2:49

like an economic driver because of

2:51

cheap AI? And I think that's

2:53

what everyone is trying to parse

2:55

through right now, right? And there's

2:57

so much uncertainty out there because...

2:59

people piled into this one AI

3:01

trade and it's just not looking

3:03

as straightforward as it did even

3:05

a week ago. Well we have

3:07

some economic data coming up this

3:09

week that will help us begin

3:11

to parse through that though obviously

3:13

I think it's it's not going

3:15

to reflect anything that's happened in

3:17

the market in the past week

3:19

but obviously we had the Federal

3:21

Reserve continuing to hold interest rates

3:23

steady this past week. part of

3:25

what they will be doing is

3:27

really data dependent and so that's

3:29

why we've got the jobs report

3:31

coming up at the end of

3:33

this coming week that will certainly

3:35

be high on the Fed's radar

3:37

of is the data showing the

3:39

economy continuing to be strong which

3:41

makes a cut less likely or

3:43

is there maybe some weakness which

3:45

maybe... puts a couple of cuts

3:47

back on the table for 2025.

3:49

I mean, it seemed like the

3:51

U.S. economy ended 2024 on a

3:53

strong note in part because of

3:55

consumer spending. I know this is

3:57

an area that you follow quite

3:59

a bit and you've been following

4:02

what's going on with American Express,

4:04

synchrony financial. Yeah. And they can

4:06

give us a lot of clues

4:08

on... what's going on in a

4:10

really granular level. What have you

4:12

been seeing there? Well, let me

4:14

boil it down this way, because

4:16

I think there's a lot of

4:18

conflicting indicators about consumers that you

4:20

hear about. Sometimes you hear, oh,

4:22

delinquencies are higher than they were

4:24

a couple of years ago. Yes,

4:26

that's true. You see retail spending

4:28

numbers good, right? But how much

4:30

of that is being done through

4:32

people's credit cards, right? So here's

4:34

how I draw a line through

4:36

all that. I think the consumer

4:38

is healthy. their balance sheet is

4:40

pretty good, meaning that they're making

4:42

enough money to generally cover their

4:44

debts, they're feeling okay, but they

4:46

are not extravagantly spending. The Yolo

4:48

spending. The Yolo spending. That stuff

4:50

that we saw coming out of

4:52

the pandemic, buying trips, luxury items,

4:54

things like that, that is just

4:56

clearly not happening. But one thing

4:58

that I think people, at least

5:00

in my life, are continuing to

5:02

spend money on and take part

5:04

in our sports as ever a

5:06

huge part of American life and

5:08

may be increasingly a huge part

5:10

of your portfolio as well. We're

5:12

going to get to that. I'm

5:14

really excited for this great conversation

5:16

that we had with Chris Moranji,

5:18

co-chief investment officer of value at

5:20

Gabelli Funds. We talked with Chris

5:22

about sports investing in the public

5:24

markets and the private markets. And

5:26

we also got into sports gambling

5:28

a little bit too, which I

5:30

think is going to keep being...

5:32

Camping Engine right up your alley.

5:34

Right up my alley. Well, Chris

5:36

and his funds are heavily invested

5:38

in the sector, including in companies

5:40

like MSG Sports and teams, even

5:42

teams like the Atlanta Braves. You

5:44

should stick around. We're going to

5:46

have that conversation after the break.

5:48

is your wealth manager ready for

5:50

those conversations? That's why Northern Trust

5:53

created the Northern Trust Institute, a

5:55

research center dedicated to surfacing new

5:57

insights and the best financial advice

5:59

to serve your unique needs. Whatever

6:01

your ambitions for your wealth, talk

6:03

to a Northern Trust advisor about

6:05

where the world is going and

6:07

how to get you and your

6:09

family there. Learn more at Northern Trust.com/institute.

6:11

So we are joined today by Chris

6:13

Moranji who is the co-chief investment officer

6:16

of value at Gabelli Funds. We are

6:18

going to dive into sports and investing

6:20

in sports teams. Chris, so great to

6:22

have you here today. Great to be

6:25

here. So I think a lot of

6:27

us have been marveling at the rally

6:29

in stocks, cryptocurrencies, AI trades, you name

6:31

it, right, over the past year or

6:34

two. What I think a lot of

6:36

people don't realize is that sports teams

6:38

and their evaluations have been just on

6:40

an insane run as well. For example,

6:43

the sale of a minority stake in

6:45

the Philadelphia Eagles. recently valued the team

6:47

at 8.3 billion dollars. That's a record

6:50

for any sports team. But that's that's

6:52

great for like billionaires who can buy

6:54

sports teams, but what I What I

6:56

also think is interesting is how the

6:59

investable sports universe seems to be changing

7:01

Like not only are there a couple

7:03

of teams that you can actually invest

7:05

in directly as a public investor But

7:08

there are also like other way, right?

7:10

There's ancillary sports businesses media Sports betting

7:12

You know, there's collectibles and things like

7:15

that. So I think I think as

7:17

a retail investor. I think the sports

7:19

phenomenon. It's like is that the next?

7:21

crypto AI type thing All you need

7:24

is $40 and you can be an

7:26

owner of a major league franchise. That's

7:28

the Atlanta Braves Baseball Club, which trades

7:30

for about $40 a share. So, you

7:33

know, there are a limited number of

7:35

ways to participate in the growth of

7:37

sports assets directly. There are four or

7:39

five of them to be specific, which

7:42

I'm sure we'll talk about, but there

7:44

are ways to benefit. You don't have

7:46

to be a billionaire. So, Chris, you

7:49

and I sat down a few weeks

7:51

ago at your offices in Rye. America

7:53

Valley, of course, one of the most

7:55

renowned value investors out there. I bugged

7:58

you about markets, the economy, AI, for

8:00

quite some time, but sports and investing

8:02

in these sports teams was really an

8:04

area you both seemed to light up

8:07

in, and this seemed to be something

8:09

you both really got excited about. Why

8:11

are you bullish on this space right

8:14

now? So it fits within our broader

8:16

theme of live entertainment. There has been

8:18

a large secular trend. of experience versus

8:20

things. I think some of that has

8:23

to do with the alienation that comes

8:25

with technology, some of it's just generational,

8:27

but sports are certainly a part of

8:29

that. And sports teams historically have been

8:32

great stores of value. That's because they're

8:34

very durable. They are not particularly sensitive

8:36

to economic conditions necessarily. They cross all

8:39

demographic boundaries, young, old, different ethnicities, obviously.

8:41

And as you mentioned at the top,

8:43

they've actually performed quite well. Hard to

8:45

measure because it's a private market, but

8:48

one measure of how well they've done.

8:50

If you compile the annual valuations of

8:52

the big force leagues and their sports

8:54

teams that comprise them over the last

8:57

10 years, they've compounded about 16% on

8:59

average. That's versus the S&P at 13%.

9:01

Obviously it's not an apples to apples

9:03

comparison exactly, but it's indicative. And that

9:06

data, that private market data. is informed

9:08

by actual transactions that have taken place.

9:10

Again, you mentioned one of them, a

9:13

very recent one, which is the Eagles

9:15

at over $8 billion, which was a

9:17

minority transaction, so may actually understate the

9:19

value of the Eagles. But, you know,

9:22

we'll see. Obviously, there's a lot more

9:24

institutional involvement now in this market as

9:26

well as private equity firms can now

9:28

invest in the NFL. They've been able

9:31

to invest in the other leagues for

9:33

several years and a number of firms

9:35

have invested in other teams in other

9:38

teams. So, you know, again, endowments, pensions,

9:40

others are participants and will increasingly be

9:42

participants. And there's publicly traded... ways too,

9:44

right? You pointed to the Atlanta Braves,

9:47

you have MSG, which is publicly traded

9:49

and oversees the Knicks. You know, I

9:51

live close to MSG, been going to

9:53

Knicks games for years. They haven't always

9:56

been very good. Does that mean that

9:58

they're a bad investment? No, actually, well,

10:00

it's actually been a very good investment.

10:02

And the Knicks are amongst the most

10:05

valuable NBA franchises out there, if you

10:07

believe, some of the those who value

10:09

teams who value teams are worth. I

10:12

don't know, $8 billion, $8 billion at

10:14

least. But you're a shareholder there, right?

10:16

We are among the largest, our clients

10:18

are among the largest shareholders of Madison

10:21

Square Garden Sports, MSGS. There are 24

10:23

million shares, the stock is around $2.20,

10:25

there's very little debt. And for that,

10:27

you get 100% of the Knicks and

10:30

100% of the New York Rangers, one

10:32

of the original hockey clubs in North

10:34

America. And obviously you're getting the Knicks

10:37

at a bargain discount and the Rangers

10:39

for free by that measure. So, you

10:41

know, with that franchise specifically or with

10:43

that company specifically, how do we actually

10:46

realize the private market value? And there

10:48

are some opportunities. I don't think the

10:50

Dolan family, which controls the company, is

10:52

going to sell those franchises because what

10:55

would they buy in other sports franchises?

10:57

That's what which people do. But I

10:59

think it's conceivable that they would actually

11:01

sell minority interest in each of those

11:04

teams and arbitrage the public markets themselves.

11:06

So if it's not related to the

11:08

success of those... teams right so if

11:11

if if it's not you know you

11:13

mentioned the Atlanta Braves are publicly traded

11:15

I think I think your fund also

11:17

is invested in the Braves our clients

11:20

are the largest holders we own about

11:22

12 our clients own about 12% of

11:24

the Braves okay and so and they've

11:26

been a pretty good team for the

11:29

last few years is that a driver

11:31

of that stock their success it's not

11:33

it's not inconsequential I mean you know

11:36

having a bad season is not going

11:38

to move the stock meaning for meaning

11:40

for But you know over long periods

11:42

of time obviously you're thinking about gathering

11:45

a an avid base of fans that's

11:47

going to spend money on merchandise and

11:49

spend money to go to your arena,

11:51

buy hot dogs, etc. And, you know,

11:54

I think that's, there's probably some impact

11:56

for how well the team plays. Our

11:58

sports franchise is then a reflection of

12:00

just kind of our bullish economic environment

12:03

in which, like, you know, obviously we've,

12:05

we've seen huge spending on lots of

12:07

other in-person experiences, right? Post pandemic, there

12:10

was all the revenge spending on travel.

12:12

eating out, things like that. Are sports

12:14

a reflection of that? Yeah, that's an

12:16

interesting question. And obviously there's got to

12:19

be a balance there with the with

12:21

the positive secular tailwinds. You know, we'll

12:23

see what happens with the cyclical. Obviously,

12:25

it's not cheap to take a family

12:28

to the ball game. Yeah, certainly not.

12:30

And that might be an area where

12:32

consumers cut back, but they haven't thus

12:35

far. So, so and that, you know,

12:37

as you alluded to, since COVID. It's

12:39

been through the roof. It's obviously been

12:41

been, we've seen a significant acceleration. So

12:44

this is an economic play and then

12:46

there's also things like the media environment

12:48

and sports betting that are playing a

12:50

role, right? Tell me a little bit

12:53

about that. Absolutely. So we'll start with

12:55

sports betting. So in 2018, the law

12:57

changed, allowed legalized sports gambling in the

13:00

US that already existed abroad, obviously. There's

13:02

a Supreme Court decision. The way for

13:04

states to start to start to legalize

13:06

it. Correct and now, you know, legal

13:09

in most states. And that has done

13:11

a few things. opened up a new

13:13

category of advertisers, draft kings, more money,

13:15

etc. More money. It's also, and it's

13:18

hard to put a number exactly on

13:20

this, but it's also increased viewership. So

13:22

the concept of prop bets, parlays, how

13:24

many strikeouts, how many strikeouts, is somebody

13:27

going to, as a pitcher, going to

13:29

have, etc. You can bet on those

13:31

items, and that might be a reason

13:34

to tune in and tune in longer

13:36

than you would if you just had

13:38

a bet on who's going to win

13:40

the game and the game as a

13:43

blowout. You know, the leagues and the

13:45

teams haven't necessarily benefited directly, but they

13:47

have benefited almost assuredly indirectly. So does

13:49

your fund also invest in... in the

13:52

stocks of sports betting companies? We do.

13:54

And again, at the outset, you talked

13:56

about some of the ancillary companies. Obviously,

13:59

some of the sports betting outfits being

14:01

primary ones. But more broadly, the media

14:03

companies. And that's where we've had a

14:05

historical core competency accumulated compound and knowledge

14:08

over decades. And it's been a plus

14:10

of minus. It is the dominant. content

14:12

on television as we know. And if

14:14

you look, it's, you know, there'll be

14:17

120 something million viewers for the Super

14:19

Bowl, almost half the country, probably tuning

14:21

in at some point, and it accounts

14:23

for, sports in general account for something

14:26

like 50, 60% of the top programs

14:28

in prime time throughout the year. The

14:30

stocks of sports betting companies have been

14:33

doing like okay lately. Like there's an

14:35

ETF BETs that owns like some of

14:37

the, you know, kind of big plays

14:39

here in the US as well as

14:42

globally so you know it owns shares

14:44

in draft kings flutter entertainment which is

14:46

a fan dual right yep they own

14:48

fan dual that that's done okay it's

14:51

up about 12% over the past year

14:53

you know as of today there's one

14:55

recording this you know underperforming the SB

14:58

500 which is up about 22% why

15:00

is that what is it about the

15:02

sports betting business that hasn't translated into

15:04

like crazy stock market success like you've

15:07

seen in other areas. Well, it's a,

15:09

the moats are, are narrower. It's a

15:11

competitive business. I mean, you've got lots

15:13

of alternatives and alternative market places in

15:16

which to bet cost a lot of

15:18

money. Those companies all spend a lot

15:20

of money in advertising and marketing to

15:22

get customers. And they're subject to, like

15:25

the casino companies, they're subject to, you

15:27

know, runs of bad luck. You had,

15:29

you know, draft kings last quarter. They're

15:32

also investing a lot of money in

15:34

their bad luck meaning like like that

15:36

the house lost more than they should

15:38

have and that can that can affect

15:41

the stock short term interesting short term.

15:43

Yeah, I mean long term surprise surprise

15:45

the house is It's going to probably

15:47

win in aggregate. The journal had a

15:50

fascinating story about parlay bets. And so

15:52

parlay bets are for those who aren't

15:54

familiar. It's when, and correct me if

15:57

I'm wrong, Chris, you know, you bet

15:59

on a series of things happening. And

16:01

they're all, they all, by themselves, they

16:03

seem pretty likely, right? Like, oh, Patrick

16:06

Mahomes will throw for 200 yards, which

16:08

is like, not that much for him.

16:10

But, you know, all of these things,

16:12

you know, there might all of these

16:15

things, there might be 10 parts of

16:17

parts of it. Are they succeeding in

16:19

bringing in new audiences with these parlays?

16:21

Are we starting to see that? Would

16:24

that be like the growth area for

16:26

them? That type of kind of like

16:28

more casual fan vetting? They certainly hope

16:31

it will be. And one of the

16:33

attributes of these parlays is you can

16:35

bet with very little money. You can,

16:37

I think in the journal sites is

16:40

an example of somebody bending $10. Okay.

16:42

Had the potential to win $22,000. So

16:44

the payoffs are very large, but obviously.

16:46

the odds are heavily against you. And

16:49

you know, one of the issues there

16:51

is obviously how do you how do

16:53

you calculate all those joint probabilities? And

16:56

obviously the odds makers have an edge

16:58

in that respect. And it's I think

17:00

hard for people to really gauge what

17:02

it means to is why people play

17:05

the lottery, because you don't understand how

17:07

long the arts are for you that

17:09

you win. So anyway, we try to

17:11

keep it a little simpler, which is

17:14

why we're focused on the content creation

17:16

themselves, the IP, which is true, not

17:18

just. with respect to sports but in

17:21

media broadly. You want to get as

17:23

close to the creators of content and

17:25

the owners of that content as you

17:27

can because that content has a very

17:30

long tail and it will get monetized

17:32

if it's worthwhile and sports certainly is

17:34

worthwhile. It gets monetized. So Chris, you

17:36

mentioned that one of your favorite gifts

17:39

at Baptisms is shares of publicly traded

17:41

sports teams. Is that right? It is.

17:43

It's a good conversation starter. You know,

17:45

used to give shares of the Walt

17:48

Disney Company or something because they're fun.

17:50

Try to get to youngsters interested in

17:52

investing. But, you know, listen, having ownership

17:55

in a... it's franchises has some appeal.

17:57

I think it gets younger folks interested.

17:59

But it actually taps into one of

18:01

the things we should talk about here

18:04

is this gap between the private market

18:06

value and the public market value because

18:08

the private market value, you can as

18:10

an owner of a team, you get

18:13

the owner's box, you show up in

18:15

the New York Post. You're on TV

18:17

all the time. You don't get that

18:20

if you if you own 40 dollars

18:22

worth of it. You can access a

18:24

little bit of it, but not all

18:26

of it. And so that's partly why

18:29

there's, that's partly why there's, that's partly

18:31

why there's this arbitrage between public and

18:33

private and why ultimately the way to

18:35

realize the full value of a sports

18:38

franchise is probably to take it private

18:40

and private equity companies are coming like

18:42

the NFL is going to start encouraging

18:44

more private equity ownership. Right and that's

18:47

largely liquidity. with the NFL decades ago,

18:49

who on paper are worth billions and

18:51

billions of dollars, but don't necessarily have

18:54

access to that money. And so one

18:56

way for them to get liquidity, and

18:58

one of the reasons that the NFL

19:00

changed the rules, is to sell minority

19:03

stakes. Is that a type of investment

19:05

that we might see more of? broadening

19:07

to the retail investor base. Obviously there's

19:09

some interest in allowing generally people to

19:12

invest more in accredited investments. So for

19:14

private equity fund owns a piece of

19:16

a team, maybe you can get in

19:19

on that through some piece of that.

19:21

Do you think that we are broadening

19:23

the public investable area? I think you'll

19:25

see some of that. In fact, we

19:28

internally at Gabelli are thinking about how

19:30

we can bring those opportunities to our

19:32

clients. credit investors, you know, packaging up

19:34

some of these LP stakes, etc. So,

19:37

you know, still thinking about that as

19:39

are hundreds of others firms out there.

19:41

But, you know, for the moment, we

19:43

invest in public stocks. That's our main

19:46

business. And so we're focused on this,

19:48

these four or five publicly traded sports

19:50

owners. We're going to take one last

19:53

break and when we come back, we're

19:55

going to ask Chris, one last question

19:57

on gambling's impact on sports. This

20:00

podcast is brought to you by

20:03

Northern Trust for where wealth goes

20:05

next. Modern Wealth is more complex

20:07

than ever. Is your Wealth Manager

20:10

ready for those conversations? That's why

20:12

Northern Trust created the Northern Trust

20:14

Institute, a research center dedicated to

20:17

surfacing new insights and the best

20:19

financial advice to serve your unique

20:21

needs. Whatever your ambitions for your

20:23

wealth, talk to a Northern Trust

20:26

advisor about where the world is

20:28

going and how to get you

20:30

and your family there. Learn more

20:33

at Northern Trust.com/institute. Our last question

20:35

for you, we touched on gambling

20:37

a lot and this has been

20:40

an area that has seen so

20:42

much growth, right? The past few

20:44

years, feels like everyone I know

20:47

is lighting up their Fandel accounts,

20:49

but do you think that the

20:51

sports industry is going to regret

20:54

getting into bed with gambling? It's

20:56

a great question. It's a really

20:58

interesting debate. And lots of folks

21:00

in the leagues have thought about

21:03

this. How do we meet this

21:05

need, meet this desire on the

21:07

part of consumers to bet on

21:10

games? Obviously, they were finding, before

21:12

gambling was legal, before 2018, people

21:14

were finding ways to bet on

21:17

sports in ways that may have

21:19

been not desirable or less desirable

21:21

than legalized gambling. But, you know,

21:24

how much do you want to

21:26

push it? I think they have,

21:28

the league owners, the team owners

21:31

have to be aware of the

21:33

integrity of the game, the fairness.

21:35

So, you know, there's a lot

21:37

of sensitivity to betting scandals. We

21:40

had one last year in baseball,

21:42

maybe. There'll be others. But it's

21:44

certainly something to pay attention to.

21:47

Ultimately, don't think it's going to

21:49

impact the trajectory of sports team.

21:51

valuation and you know this is

21:54

going to be additive and you

21:56

know we think they're great long-term

21:58

preservers of value. This has been

22:01

great. Thank you, Chris. It's been

22:03

fun. Thanks for having a lot

22:05

of fun. And that's everything you

22:07

need to know for this week.

22:10

The show is produced by Trina

22:12

Manino, Jess Jupiter, and Jessica Fenton.

22:14

Michael LaValle and Jessica Fenton are

22:17

our sound designers, and Michael also

22:19

wrote our theme music. Aisha Elmusline

22:21

is our development producer, Scott Salaway,

22:24

and Chris Zinsley, are the deputy

22:26

editors, and Philine Zinsley and Chris

22:28

Zinsley. Sports and otherwise, head to

22:31

wsj.com. I'm Telestimos. And I'm Gungen

22:33

Banerji, until next time. So that's

22:35

right, so tell your kids, forget

22:38

about learning coding, go outside, throw

22:40

the football around, swing the baseball

22:42

bat, AI's gonna eat those jobs,

22:44

but professional athlete, that's one that'll

22:47

still be around. I'm not sure

22:49

that's what I would tell my

22:51

kids. This

22:56

podcast is brought to you by Northern

22:58

Trust for Where Wealth Goes Next. Modern

23:01

Wealth is more complex than ever. Is

23:03

your wealth manager ready for those conversations?

23:05

That's why Northern Trust created the Northern

23:08

Trust Institute, a research center dedicated to

23:10

surfacing new insights and the best financial

23:12

advice to serve your unique needs. Whatever

23:15

your ambitions for your wealth, talk to

23:17

a Northern Trust advisor about where the

23:19

world is going and how to get

23:22

you and your family there. Learn more

23:24

at Northern Trust.com/ institute.