0:14

So, first off, have you been

0:16

invited to join the Papal Conclave? Yeah,

0:19

I just got the email. Oh,

0:21

you did? Yeah. Are they sending emails

0:23

still? Yeah, yeah. It went

0:25

out. It looked like a pretty

0:27

large group email. Did

0:30

it did it have any advisories on

0:32

it this time about like no

0:34

one with with a uterus allowed? Like

0:36

are they making precautions this time

0:38

based on the last papal conclave? Well,

0:41

what was interesting about it

0:43

is that they I think they

0:45

mistook me for they're letting conservative

0:47

Jews be Be part of

0:49

the conclave So

0:52

they're kind of opening up a little bit,

0:54

but not yeah, they got to do that

0:56

the numbers are dwindling and no liberal Jews,

0:58

but they're they're all good with You know,

1:00

I think I think that you

1:02

know the the copy list wasn't

1:05

hidden. Yeah, Stephen Segal

1:12

He's got good ideas for this.

1:14

Yeah. what were some other

1:16

ones? Jeff Ross Jeff Ross.

1:18

Oh, well, of course. He's not conservative,

1:20

but there he I guess he he

1:22

is on the you know straddles both

1:24

worlds He's the he's the roast master

1:26

general so that he they need somebody

1:28

to you know Keep the proceedings moving

1:31

along. I mean, it's gonna be a

1:33

long couple of weeks. I'd want I'd

1:35

like Jeff to be Pope. I

1:38

Think it's high time a Jew was Pope Yeah,

1:40

why not? At all

1:42

kinds. This is

1:44

now the third pope that

1:46

I've been working with you

1:48

as the transition has happened,

1:50

and I was reminded that

1:52

we were working together on

1:55

Air America when they were

1:57

picking the successor to John

1:59

Paul II, which wound

2:01

up being Benedict. The

2:03

Polish Pope was JP too. Then it

2:05

was the German guy who might have

2:07

been a Nazi. Right, right. Yeah, yeah,

2:09

yeah. Rat singer. Yeah.

2:11

And he was Benedict the

2:13

16th, I think. And

2:16

then that's the weird one where he

2:18

just like went away. Like he just

2:20

decided like, nah, not going to be Pope anymore.

2:22

And then what happened to that guy? Did he die?

2:25

He died like well after he stopped

2:27

being Pope. It was a weird one.

2:29

Yeah. Well, I guess something was

2:31

about to surface. I guess,

2:33

yeah, that's why everybody always out. Was

2:35

that a great joke that Leno had

2:37

years ago for Muir Kehrt of all

2:39

time? What was he? He got nominated

2:42

for something and there were these pictures

2:44

of him in uniform. The

2:47

thought was

2:49

that he was a Nazi and Leno used to

2:51

just be like, no, no, that was the

2:53

bowling club. We're in a bowling club. That

2:58

was probably when he was being named to

3:00

be the secretary general of the UN, I

3:02

would guess. Yeah, I think that was it,

3:04

yeah. Well,

3:06

it called to mind in my memory

3:08

that when we were working at Air

3:10

America, we did a

3:13

bit about the selection of The

3:15

New Pope, which frankly, I

3:17

don't think it was as ridiculous as

3:19

the movie Conclave. Would

3:21

have been a shorter movie. Yeah,

3:23

it would be shorter and probably

3:25

a little more reality grounded

3:27

frankly The thing I hated about

3:30

that movie was that goddamn

3:32

procedural music gun gun gun gun

3:34

gun They literally had you

3:36

know cut away procedural music My

3:38

absolute favorite part of Conclave is that

3:40

he's, you know, Conclave has a

3:42

buddy who goes around to like his

3:45

assistant who's like, you know, trying

3:47

to clean up all the messes, you

3:49

know, and he comes up to

3:51

Conclave at one point and he's like,

3:53

hey, I found out

3:55

about this secret clinic

3:57

in Geneva that this guy

3:59

went to and he's like, oh yeah, what'd you

4:01

find out? And he's like, Well, he canceled that trip,

4:03

so we don't need to worry about it. I'm

4:06

like, oh, really? Just leave

4:08

that hanging there, huh? Oh,

4:10

I don't need to know

4:12

anymore about the secret clinic

4:14

in Geneva. Oh, yeah. The

4:17

Pope has a vagina and a

4:19

cock. One

4:22

of each. Yeah,

4:24

it's going to be a lot for them to top that. We

4:28

might have played this before when

4:30

we did the, and in fact, I'm

4:32

certain we played it before when

4:34

we did our look back at Morning's

4:36

Edition, but I know not everybody's

4:38

heard it. And if you have heard

4:40

it, it's very quick. So I'm

4:42

going to play again our segment from

4:44

back in 2005 when the new

4:46

Pope was selected. This was our take

4:49

on it on the air. We

4:51

have a new Pope, Pope Benedict XVI,

4:53

formerly Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. Now, we

4:55

actually, Cardinal Milfington had a friend who

4:57

was actually in the Vatican, which

4:59

was, of course, one of the oldest

5:01

megachurches, and he was there, and

5:03

he witnessed the process by which they

5:05

picked the pope and was actually

5:07

able to record some of it, and

5:10

we got this mini -disc this morning,

5:12

and it's pretty powerful, and let's

5:14

hear that. Can we, Kayla? Gentlemen,

5:17

gentlemen, may I have your

5:19

attention, please? P

5:21

as in the Paul, 6.

5:25

P, 6. Next.

5:31

O, 15. Oh,

5:33

you know, I get

5:35

the Old Testament, 15. O,

5:38

15. Ah, here

5:40

she comes with the next ping -pong

5:42

ball. E as

5:44

in Ecclesiastes, 8. Hey,

5:48

I got a pope here! Everybody, I'm the

5:50

new pope! Okay, bring up your

5:53

card, Giuseppe. Let me check your numbers.

5:56

She's looking good! Oh,

5:59

we got a new pope! Somebody break up

6:01

the white smoke! A

6:09

lot of people didn't realize that they

6:11

are forced to speak in in Chico Marx

6:13

like Italian accents. Bensonhurst, Brooklyn,

6:16

Italian accents in a couple of cases.

6:18

Yeah, and even the Ratzinger, who's German,

6:20

they're all forced to speak like that,

6:22

because you would think that, you know,

6:24

he says, I'm the new Pope, but

6:26

you would think it'd be more a

6:28

German... Pope? You know, whatever that, you

6:30

know... He speaks ten languages, apparently. Yeah,

6:32

exactly, except so this might have been

6:34

one of the ten, which was, you

6:36

know, Italian -American accent. That was exactly

6:38

the kind of thing we could do. Like

6:40

if we came in in the morning, we

6:43

were like, hey, I have an idea. Let's

6:45

do Pope Bingo. Just make that in the

6:47

like brief period of time before we got

6:49

on the air. I assume we

6:51

couldn't find the sound of a rolling

6:53

bingo cage. No, it was

6:55

very, very, in fact, I don't know if

6:57

you recognize your own voice. You're one

6:59

of the grumbling carnals in there. You're the

7:01

one that went, ah, Jesus. And

7:08

yes, that was Dan

7:11

Pashman doing the terrible

7:13

accented lead cardinal running the

7:15

conclave. It's weird.

7:17

I have a hard time remembering any of

7:19

that. No, I wouldn't remember

7:21

it if I didn't have the actual

7:23

evidence because it was all such a

7:25

haze. Oh my God. We literally made

7:27

that at five in the morning. I

7:29

know. It's crazy how little I remember

7:31

from that time. Yeah. Well, now

7:33

we're going on 20 years, so

7:35

you can be forgiven. It's like waking

7:38

consciousness. It's like having a job

7:40

at like six hours a day while

7:42

you're not sure if you're awake

7:44

or not. Well, one thing that I

7:46

did want to bring up because

7:48

you mentioned it on the, you know,

7:50

it was mentioned on the show

7:52

Monday in your talk with Lisa Traeger

7:54

was, and this was something, this

7:56

is a little behind the scenes thing because

7:58

you and I kind of went a little thought

8:00

process on it was you

8:03

and Lisa kind of taking

8:05

digs at Mike Berbiglia, who

8:07

we had just last week.

8:09

The audience doesn't know this.

8:11

We were just in the

8:13

process of rebooking him. For

8:15

like the ninth time. Yeah,

8:17

it is. Well, he has

8:19

been on, I think this would

8:21

be the fourth time. And

8:24

he hosted an anniversary show. That

8:26

was it. He did his

8:28

own episode. Then the 200th episode

8:30

was Mike interviewing you. and

8:32

asking questions from past

8:35

guests of you. Yeah.

8:38

And then we had him back on,

8:40

I believe it was when he

8:42

did the movie of Sleepwalk with me

8:44

that you were in. Oh,

8:46

really? Yeah, okay. Yeah, we had him back on

8:48

for a short one for that. But

8:51

so he reached out to you,

8:53

told you that he had a special

8:55

coming up. And I don't know

8:57

if that coincided with what Lisa was

8:59

talking about. No, because it was

9:01

at the seller because, and

9:04

I think she said that, because

9:06

I was there and Mike was there.

9:08

It was that night that I

9:10

was there and I talked to Louie

9:12

and Chris Rock and Santino was there

9:14

and Bobby Lee. But when I got

9:16

there, Mike was there. And

9:18

I guess when he left I said

9:20

something and that got back to Lisa

9:22

who was on that show later I

9:24

think. Oh, I see same show. Yeah,

9:26

I mean it was that night. Yeah,

9:28

it must have been a night. Well,

9:30

I I found that in in trying

9:32

to you know put the show together

9:34

I found that you know we would

9:36

It was it was kind of like

9:38

it was a little to me a

9:41

little dicey in the sense that we're

9:43

gonna have him on being booked to

9:45

come on. Yeah And I

9:47

felt like, well, it would be really

9:49

shitty for him to like hear this

9:51

second hand or third hand or just

9:53

listening to the show himself and get

9:55

like, you know, surprised by it that

9:57

you and Lisa are talking about him

9:59

that Well, it was one of those

10:01

things where it's like, we don't really

10:03

do that stuff. So the question was,

10:05

you know, what's the point of leaving

10:07

it in? And oddly, it is one

10:09

of the things that all of our

10:11

guests If there's ever

10:14

a request to cut something out,

10:16

it's always like 99 % of

10:18

the time they said something

10:20

about somebody else. And it's just

10:22

not worth the outside of,

10:24

you know, feeling bad, you know,

10:26

that Michael have to wake

10:28

up to that. It just starts

10:30

shit and usually unnecessarily. Right.

10:32

And the thing that was

10:34

tricky with that is obviously we

10:36

could cut out whatever we

10:38

want. However, if I had cut

10:40

that out, it really would

10:42

have done a number on the

10:44

narrative of that episode because

10:46

it really connected once you guys

10:48

started talking about that. That

10:50

was the entry point to talking

10:52

about like how she does

10:54

her comedy based on, you know,

10:56

kind of her wanting it

10:58

to be her own self and not a

11:00

character. And it got into her

11:03

special. And so, you know, we had this text

11:05

chat about it that it's like, this is a

11:07

little tricky to cut this out, but it's also

11:09

like, what do you want to do about it?

11:11

And, and, you know, it was my recommendation that

11:13

you just give Mike a heads up. I felt

11:15

like that would be the right thing to do.

11:17

And then I just cut it out. Yeah,

11:19

you were like, well, then I'd rather

11:21

cut it out. And I said, I think

11:23

we'd lose too much. Like I really

11:25

do. I think is kind of is a

11:27

thorny situation. So at this

11:29

point, I don't know necessarily

11:32

the next step. What happened from

11:34

that point? Well,

11:36

I was like, well, what am I going to

11:38

say? You know, because it's not stuff I

11:40

haven't said. And him and I have hashed it

11:42

out before. And despite, you know, him wanting

11:44

to come back on the show, there was a

11:46

point there where the tension between us was On

11:49

his side, just him knowing

11:51

how I felt at different

11:53

times during our relationship and

11:55

having not wavered from it

11:57

much if it comes up,

12:00

he was asked to moderate that

12:02

thing that me and Lynn

12:04

did down there in the village,

12:06

the screening. One of the

12:09

movie theaters? Yeah, I think Ira

12:11

ended up doing it. Is

12:13

that right? But

12:15

he said we did one and Josh

12:17

Radner did one and well, yeah But

12:19

we went out to Mike cuz you

12:21

know Lynn liked Mike and Mike said

12:23

well, I don't think Mark likes me

12:25

and I'm like I don't why right

12:27

whatever but this this weird thing that

12:29

I have with him has been on

12:31

and off for years Yeah, so you

12:33

know, I didn't I didn't remember exactly

12:35

what I said But you know, we

12:37

decided that you were gonna put it

12:39

in and that I should text him

12:41

a heads up and so we we

12:43

put together a text. And

12:45

to be transparent, I didn't send it

12:47

out till this morning. Well,

12:50

but still, that was what

12:52

he got. He got the text

12:54

and then responded to you. Right.

12:58

So I sent the text.

13:00

which was, hey, just so you hear it

13:02

from me and not someone else, I was

13:04

talking with Lisa Traeger on my show and

13:07

you came up and I was honest about

13:09

how I've perceived you throughout the years. I

13:11

don't think it will be surprising to you,

13:13

but I also wanted to be upfront about

13:15

it. And then I said more grist for

13:17

our mill when we talk and he texted

13:19

back immediately, can I call you? So

13:22

that's what I got from you. I

13:24

got a text from you being like, great,

13:26

now Mike wants to talk. And

13:29

to me, I'm like, well, okay, but

13:31

that's like, that's a better talk than

13:33

him texting you because you didn't give

13:35

him a heads up and him being

13:37

like, hey, can I talk to you

13:39

because what the fuck are you talking

13:41

about me like out of nowhere? Just,

13:44

you know. Yeah. So but the funny

13:46

thing, the feelings I go through is

13:48

like, you know, Like

13:50

when you really have to like now I

13:52

got it like he's gonna want to you

13:54

know tell me you know you know when's

13:56

this gonna end or do you know like

13:58

why does this keep going I don't know

14:01

if I should do the show and I

14:03

gotta listen to that and I gotta you

14:05

know take the consequences of just saying that

14:07

thing and and I was sort of like

14:09

ah maybe like we don't have to have

14:11

him back on the show in my mind

14:13

you know it's just like the And

14:16

then like, I got out of the gym and I'm

14:18

like, just literally out loud. I'm like, just fucking call

14:20

him. Let's just do this. And

14:22

I'm like, Hey, man. He's like,

14:24

Hey, what's up? What's going on? Well,

14:28

he's like, how you doing? I'm like,

14:30

fine. And it's just a normal

14:32

conversation. We'll be literally talked like people

14:34

who, you know, like each other

14:37

for like five or 10 minutes. And

14:39

then I kind of edged into you

14:41

know, what I said, he's like, yeah,

14:43

you know, it didn't affect me in

14:46

any way, but if I come back

14:48

on, I just, we don't have to, we're

14:50

not going to do that. Are we

14:52

like, we're not going to go back

14:54

through it for, you know, our

14:56

whole relationship again or whatever, you know,

14:58

because, you know, you've had specials that I

15:00

liked and I've just, I've done two

15:02

specials and we ended up talking like a

15:04

half hour about jokes and, you know,

15:06

like normal comedy stuff. Like, That's

15:08

the problem with me is I

15:10

have this thing that's stuck in my

15:12

craw that I can't really get

15:15

out, but it's not active But it

15:17

becomes active if someone's gonna poke

15:19

at it. Yeah, you know and it

15:21

was just a lucky guess and

15:23

My criticism of him was what it

15:25

always has been but oddly, you

15:27

know He ended the conversation on the

15:29

phone. He was like, well, this

15:31

new special, it reminds me a bit

15:33

of the one you did last

15:35

from Bleak to Dark. It's about my

15:37

dad had a stroke in dealing

15:40

with that. And then he

15:42

said, I think it's the

15:44

most myself I've been ever in

15:46

a special. I'm like, finally. Great

15:53

we could start there and but

15:55

I told them I said look you

15:57

can call me out you can

15:59

call me a dick and I'll cop

16:01

to it and you know because

16:03

it yeah I am being a dick

16:05

with this thing and I have

16:07

been for years but it doesn't necessarily

16:09

stop it but it hasn't really

16:12

surfaced in a long time has it

16:14

maybe it hasn't you know it

16:16

actually hasn't I would I would know

16:18

if it did but it's funny

16:20

it's that I remember a long time

16:22

ago being like You know, it

16:24

was like, there were these incidents. One

16:26

was like when you were doing

16:28

your scorching the earth special in the

16:30

same theater that he was doing

16:32

his show in. And he like invited

16:35

you to come see his show. And

16:37

you took offense to that. You were

16:40

like, he's fucking trying to rub his,

16:42

rub my nose in this. But you're

16:44

not characterizing it, right? Like, yes, he

16:46

was in that theater. Like, it was,

16:48

what was that called? The Bleaker Street

16:50

Theater? Bleaker Street, yeah, or Barra Street,

16:52

wherever was. Bleaker, yeah. Nice space. Yeah.

16:55

In the basement of that

16:57

theater was this dungeon of a

16:59

fucking space that had been

17:01

set up as a kind of

17:03

black box, you know, workshop

17:05

theater. But it Well, he was

17:07

in an official off -Broadway theater and with a

17:09

show being like produced by Nathan Lane. I

17:11

was in the basement. And you were in

17:13

the basement of that same theater. And I

17:15

had to live with that. You know, and

17:17

the guy who was producing mine was kind

17:19

of nuts. And, you know, I

17:21

was all fucked up because it wasn't a

17:23

real show. It was just me, you know,

17:25

kind of going on about my divorce. And

17:28

people came and then Time Out wrote about

17:30

it. And I didn't want anyone to see

17:32

it. And they were like, you know, it

17:34

doesn't seem like Mark has any distance from

17:36

this stuff. I'm like, no, I don't. And

17:39

you can't even get tickets to it. Why

17:41

are you writing about it? But just the

17:43

fact that he was up there, Mr. Likeable,

17:45

you know, you know, with this big

17:48

produced show, yeah, he was resentment. It

17:50

was just, you know, just straight up kind

17:52

of like, you know, fuck that

17:54

guy. Why am I, you know, in

17:56

the basement, in the

17:58

catacombs? But the same exact

18:00

thing. of him like it's it's just

18:03

repeated itself over and over again

18:05

like this recent time where he has

18:07

sent you a text saying I

18:09

did this new special and I think

18:11

you will really like it and

18:13

it's close to stuff you have done

18:16

like it's the same thing as

18:18

that of him wanting you to come

18:20

up and see his special it's

18:22

the same as him putting you in

18:24

his movie playing a guy who's

18:26

like you know an influential comic to

18:28

him right and it like it

18:31

always What's that? But a dick. Yes,

18:33

right. I mean, like, he's not going

18:35

to give you a, you know, full beatification

18:37

in these things. But at the

18:39

same time, it's always been very

18:41

clear to me that this guy, you

18:44

know, wants your approval. Yeah, to

18:46

me, misunderstanding that. Like, I read it

18:48

as like, he's rubbing my face

18:50

and stuff. And at this point, you

18:52

know, arguably, you know, I'm plenty

18:54

successful. I'm not going to, you know,

18:57

try to figure out who's more

18:59

successful necessarily. But I

19:01

think it was one of

19:03

those things that there

19:05

was something always out of

19:07

my reach that I

19:09

still think on some level

19:12

I see is out

19:14

of my reach was just

19:16

really having a decisive

19:18

approach and brand and tone

19:20

that was affable and

19:22

pleasant. that there was

19:24

something about he being so

19:26

put together in his character

19:29

and him doing one -person shows

19:31

that were, look, they were

19:33

fine and they are fine

19:35

in that zone. But,

19:37

you know, to me, you know, I'm

19:39

gonna go more towards, you know,

19:41

Spalding Gray or Burgosian or, you know,

19:43

it seemed to be gutting the

19:45

notion of performance art, whatever. There was

19:47

a lot of things going on

19:49

in my head, but the main one

19:51

being it's like, you know, this

19:53

guy's got it more together than me.

19:56

And also mixed with don't don't forget

19:58

mixed with the fact that you

20:01

can kind of spot someone doing a

20:03

kind of performative character. Well, yeah,

20:05

but that's always been the issue. But

20:07

like, you know, I can accept

20:09

that and other people and arguably we

20:11

all eventually evolve one. And ultimately,

20:13

every time I watch him, I'm like,

20:15

he's a great comic. I mean,

20:17

he knows how to do it and

20:19

he's funny. And, you know, he's

20:21

a long form comic and I like

20:23

that. But there's just something about

20:25

the the the hidden ambition that always

20:27

kind of bothered me. because I

20:30

don't know that clear on my ambition.

20:32

I know that I'm competitive and

20:34

I know that I come from a

20:36

more desperate place than I should. But

20:39

I'm just not, I don't see myself

20:41

as ambitious. Well, there's lots

20:43

of, there's a laundry list of

20:45

people who kind of fall into that

20:47

category that you've always kind of

20:49

had an issue with because. There's a

20:51

few. Yeah, like Pete Holmes and

20:53

Chris Hardwick and going all the way

20:56

back to the kind of beginning

20:58

of your career with this was John

21:00

Stewart. Sure. And the interesting thing

21:02

I found was today, Before

21:04

you talked to Mike. Yeah, you were

21:06

just like yeah, this just it's annoying that

21:08

these things you know get compounded over

21:11

the years and it's like winds up being

21:13

like the John Stewart thing and I

21:15

was like that you saying that to me

21:17

I was like whoa, whoa, whoa, hang

21:19

on This is like the the opposite interpersonally,

21:22

like Stuart was angry

21:25

at you. He

21:27

felt resentful toward you because of

21:29

how you've treated him. Mike

21:31

is like a puppy that's like,

21:33

why do you keep hitting

21:35

me? All I want is to

21:37

rub your leg. Yeah,

21:39

but see I still can't like it

21:41

must be something about my wiring I

21:43

I still feel like it's a little

21:46

manipulative But we had a nice conversation.

21:48

Yeah, like, you know when I let

21:50

my guard down, you know, I have

21:52

no there's no problem with that guy

21:54

And and that's what happens when you're

21:56

like you got a when he's like

21:58

call can I call you I'm like,

22:01

oh, okay, you know Why do I

22:03

I just I just said a thing

22:05

can we just not why you know

22:08

So, but it was fine. It's fine

22:10

and it's stupid and you know,

22:12

I try to manage it, but I

22:14

do think I yeah, I do

22:16

think it was you know handled well

22:18

and Handled in a way where

22:21

you know, you guys can do an

22:23

episode coming up record an episode

22:25

not have it be the the thrust

22:27

of the episode But also, you

22:29

know now it's a little flavor in

22:31

the mix. Yeah, but like it's

22:33

like I why You

22:36

know, we're old now I'm old

22:38

and I'm you know, and I'm older

22:40

than all these guys too by

22:43

almost a decade probably and you know

22:45

like like there's some parts of

22:47

me that don't that just sort of

22:49

They they remain there, but they're

22:51

not connected to anything. You know that

22:53

nothing present exactly right right and

22:55

you know, it's just kind of it's

22:58

like a vestigial limb of your

23:00

of resentment. Yeah, and it just is

23:02

a It's I don't know it

23:04

still feels good to

23:09

talk shit. Yeah,

23:11

well, I do think that was a

23:13

kind of good thematic moment in that interview

23:16

with Lisa Traeger because, you know, she

23:18

was saying, this is what we just like

23:20

to do as comics. It's like one

23:22

of, and you both talked about like, yeah,

23:24

it's gotten me in trouble. And like,

23:26

you know, in the meantime, you had this

23:28

moment, you know, the first 10 minutes

23:30

of the episode where you, you

23:33

guys did that about some other

23:35

guy, right? Like it was like this

23:37

good representation of the example of

23:39

doing that and then your discussion

23:41

of like the repercussions of that throughout

23:43

both of your careers. Yeah, but

23:45

also like, you know, it becomes

23:47

tricky, you know, this is just an

23:50

ego thing, you know, and it's

23:52

just, you know, a personal issue. But

23:54

like, you know, sometimes talking shit, like

23:56

in the case with Adam Samler, I

23:58

thought that, you know, he was fair

24:00

game. Yeah, right, right. There are people

24:03

in our business that become cultural touchstones

24:05

or points or whatever the expression is,

24:07

or cultural, have cultural impact, whereas somebody

24:09

who makes jokes about culture, they should

24:11

be fair game. But when it comes

24:13

right down to it, there's still that

24:15

guy you see at the comedy club.

24:17

But frankly, I would say, so this

24:19

was you were on Conan, right? And

24:21

you said something about Adam Sandler fans,

24:23

right? Yeah, and a joke. Yeah,

24:25

and it and and then he

24:28

confronted you about it saying, you

24:30

know, I heard you were talking

24:32

about me and you sit down

24:34

on television. Yeah, was on Conan

24:36

and I would say that is

24:38

how I feel like Lisa's position

24:40

is in this thing with Berbiglia.

24:42

Like she's absolutely within her rights

24:45

to say, oh, I don't like

24:47

that guy for how like her

24:49

criticism of him was His stage

24:51

persona. Yeah. She's like, I don't

24:53

like this guy, grown up guy

24:55

talking like a baby doofus. Yeah.

24:57

Like, you know, be a real

25:00

guy, be yourself. You fuck your

25:02

wife. Right. But

25:04

like anybody could say that

25:07

that's criticizing. That's criticism of his

25:09

persona. Yeah. It's all people

25:11

do. It's not just comics. Everybody

25:13

talks shit. That's right. That's

25:15

exactly right. The whole industry based

25:17

on it. but because it's

25:19

a comic doing it about a

25:21

comic, it winds up seeming

25:23

personal. or player hating or jealousy.

25:26

It's like my criticism of the anti -woke

25:28

guys. I mean, that tribalized, that definitely

25:31

put me on the outside of that

25:33

thing. And I know all those guys,

25:35

but that is of utmost political

25:37

importance and cultural importance that somebody

25:39

do that because that's why you

25:42

have a bunch of, not necessarily

25:44

political comics, but certainly left -leaning people

25:46

in my business who are afraid.

25:49

Just like everyone's afraid of of

25:51

Trump, of Rogan, or whatever,

25:53

but somebody's gotta just, you know,

25:55

throw, and it's not even, like

25:58

it's weird last night I had a moment

26:00

where, you

26:02

know, along these

26:04

lines in terms of, you

26:06

know, what we do, that,

26:08

you know, like, are my policy, and I

26:10

think rightfully so, and our approach to this

26:13

is that we do our show, this is

26:15

how we do it, there is some, there

26:17

is some, insulation

26:21

because we are audio

26:23

and we're not easily clipped.

26:25

And if somebody wants to reference

26:27

something I say, they have to

26:30

put it in print. And that's

26:32

not really the currency of the

26:34

time. And it protects me

26:36

a little bit from troll

26:38

pylons and being dragged into a

26:40

larger cultural conversation. but

26:44

I still say my piece, but you know,

26:46

there is part of me that wishes it

26:48

would even land harder. And I had this

26:50

saw last night is off topic, but I

26:52

was like, you know, God damn it. Are

26:54

we, you know, after I read that article

26:57

I sent you in from the Hollywood reporter,

26:59

I'm like, I rented an idea on the

27:01

right thing. Should we produce some video pieces

27:03

that I know will fucking crawl up the

27:05

ass of these people because it's our duty,

27:07

not, you know, look, we run our own

27:09

shop, we make a good living and we're

27:11

okay with that. But there's part of me,

27:13

there's a higher calling. for me to trash

27:15

these guys on video. And maybe

27:17

I'll just ask Brendan if we should just,

27:19

you know, script to like five or

27:21

six pieces that I can go to a

27:23

studio of a peer and put on

27:25

a video for my platform guys to put

27:27

up just so we're on record. Are

27:30

you in? The

27:32

hilarious thing about that

27:34

though is like, I

27:37

can't think of a thing

27:39

that you would hate more. than

27:41

the repercussions of that. Yeah,

27:43

I know. I know that's always

27:45

part of it, yeah. Yeah,

27:47

like it's like it's... It's like

27:49

a hundred thousand Mike Brabiglia's

27:51

I Got a Call. It's

27:56

just gonna be me going like, oh

27:58

god damn it. That's the rest of

28:00

your life every day. Oh god, they

28:02

gotta do that thing now. Why they

28:04

put that out there? It's never gonna

28:06

stop. Yeah. But

28:08

isn't that cowardice? Wait,

28:10

no, cowardice would be if you

28:13

did that, if that was a thing

28:15

you do. If you have a

28:17

show where you're supposed to call people

28:19

on the carpet for things, like

28:21

if you were John Oliver, and you

28:23

all of a sudden stop talking

28:25

about Trump because you're afraid what Trump's

28:28

gonna do to you, that's cowardice,

28:30

and that's why John Oliver doesn't do

28:32

it. He's not a coward. He's

28:34

not a guy who's gonna be like,

28:36

well, I'll shut up then if

28:38

this guy's gonna threaten me. But you

28:40

have never established that you're some

28:43

guy who your job is to police

28:45

comedy. That's just not

28:47

your job. Yeah. But you

28:49

definitely speak your mind and every

28:51

fucking intro that you do

28:53

is is laid in with your

28:55

opinions, vis -a -vis other comics

28:57

and how they conduct themselves. Yeah.

28:59

That doesn't mean that by

29:01

not being like, I'm going to

29:03

do a takedown of them

29:05

every day, you're being a coward.

29:08

Well, I guess I didn't see it

29:10

as a takedown. I think I,

29:13

you know, that because from the side

29:15

I'm on, you know,

29:17

and the appreciation I get

29:19

from comics that, you know,

29:21

don't have a platform big

29:23

enough or don't have the

29:25

balls to do it, it's

29:28

just not being done. And

29:30

in my mind, these lines,

29:32

these dividing lines are very

29:34

real and a lot of

29:36

them can't see past the

29:38

opportunities offered to them by

29:40

being diplomatic with these comics

29:42

that have this power, which

29:45

I don't really have. So

29:47

sometimes I think it's on

29:49

me to call out collaborators

29:51

and to broaden the conversation

29:53

around the impact of people

29:55

who are, quote unquote, just

29:57

comedians now. That's

30:00

what it is. But it's like,

30:02

don't you think you do that? I

30:04

definitely Not just on the podcast, but you've

30:06

done it in your specials. You do

30:08

it when you guest on late night shows.

30:11

I guess there's part of me that's

30:13

sort of like, I

30:17

guess there's always part of me that thinks

30:20

like, if I do it,

30:22

it'll free up the dialogue. Yeah,

30:24

well, I think it was bumping up against the thing

30:26

that you bumped up with. Regardless of what

30:29

it is, it could be with your comedy, your

30:31

acting, anything that when you do it, you're like, shouldn't

30:33

the whole world see this? Doesn't everybody

30:35

get to see this and celebrate it? Turns

30:37

out, no, not many. It's

30:40

never the whole world. But

30:42

no, but also just sort of like,

30:45

because there is that

30:47

same fear that people

30:49

in Congress feel. around

30:52

speaking their minds or being

30:54

honest about, you know, what's

30:56

happening, that happens in comedy

30:58

too. But it's, you know, the implications

31:00

are different. You know, they don't

31:02

want to fuck opportunities up. They don't want

31:04

to be targeted by, you know, the army

31:07

of meatheads. There's a lot of things. But

31:10

yeah, but I, you know,

31:12

I wish, I think it would

31:14

be helpful if more people

31:16

could you know, speak their mind about

31:18

it. But then again, it's not many comics that

31:20

do that period, you know, in terms of this type

31:22

of stuff. That's funny that

31:24

we got to all this

31:26

from Brabiglia, who is definitely

31:28

not of that type. No,

31:30

but I think what's important

31:32

is that, you know, the

31:34

sort of the difference between

31:37

my engagement around this stuff And

31:39

around speaking my mind that that I

31:41

is part of me and it is

31:43

something I do and it is important

31:46

But there is another operative part of

31:48

me of like, you know, oh man,

31:50

you know now I've caused all this

31:52

trouble for myself I've caused other people

31:54

trouble and you know now I have

31:56

to sit with that or or try

31:58

you know I've gotten better at that

32:00

because you got to do some things

32:02

that are gonna come back at you

32:04

in the form of Attacks

32:07

or trolling or you know

32:09

judgment and you know, it's just

32:11

life, but I'm very aware

32:13

of the decision -making around doing

32:15

it Well, one of the things

32:17

that I always take to

32:19

heart and I remember hearing this

32:21

from one of Letterman's producers

32:23

that Letterman Told the producers of

32:26

the show your job is

32:28

to protect me from myself. Yeah,

32:30

and I've always taken that

32:32

to heart. And I don't mean

32:34

that from the sense of

32:36

like, I've got to censor you.

32:38

I obviously do not, because

32:40

we have a pretty connected relationship.

32:42

not censoring. It's literally protecting

32:44

me for myself. It's not

32:46

censoring, but that's why when I think about

32:48

doing things, I'm like, I've got to

32:50

run this by the brain. And

32:54

that's and my thinking is not like

32:56

oh, what would I do? No, I

32:58

know my thinking is what does this

33:00

do for him, right? Like that's a

33:02

distinct difference. Yeah, yeah, yeah Sometimes I

33:04

just picture you when I have to

33:06

do other appearances just watching going like

33:08

oh my god. What is it? What's

33:10

he gonna do? I'm not there to

33:12

oh No, I don't think I've ever

33:14

I don't think I've literally I've never

33:16

done that I've never done that. I

33:19

did, and it's definitely

33:21

less now, I

33:23

did have a sense

33:25

that the horses

33:27

were out of the

33:29

stable once the

33:31

Instagram Live stuff became

33:33

very prominent. Because

33:36

there was just no way

33:38

to have any... It

33:40

would be one thing if you were doing you

33:42

did a show, let's say, like you did. I'm

33:44

not going to name which one it was, but

33:46

you did a show recently. You

33:48

said something on it and you and

33:50

I were talking about it. You were

33:53

not talking about the show that you

33:55

you taped with it with it as

33:57

a guest. Yeah. But we were talking

33:59

about something else, something that related to

34:01

that. And you said, I just did

34:03

a joke. I talked about that on

34:05

this show. And then

34:07

based on the conversation you and I were having,

34:09

you said, yeah, I think that's probably not

34:12

a good thing to put out there. So you

34:14

contacted the person you did the show with.

34:16

You said, hey, can we cut that part? And

34:18

they said, sure. And you did. And

34:20

it was like, that's... the the

34:22

ability that we have as a as

34:24

a partnership that like I didn't

34:26

know you said that and I but

34:28

it was just that we were

34:30

have we have regular conversations but it's

34:32

like I like that I have

34:34

this this part of myself where I'll

34:36

say something I'll be like oh

34:39

I gotta come clean on that and

34:41

talk to Brendan like you know

34:43

it yeah but okay but then you

34:45

didn't do that with the IG

34:47

stuff because you didn't remember, you're just

34:49

talking, right? So it's

34:51

not like, so then I'd find

34:53

out sometimes literally years later, we'd

34:55

be dealing with something and it's

34:57

like, oh, it's because you said

34:59

this thing two years ago on

35:01

Instagram Live. Yeah, I

35:03

don't like, I've gotten into a

35:05

little personal issues with that stuff.

35:07

And also like, you know, other

35:10

issues because it was very freeform,

35:12

you know, I wasn't thinking in

35:14

terms of it. not necessarily lasting, but

35:17

by the looks of the

35:19

participation, it wasn't like some global

35:21

hit. You know what I mean? But

35:24

it existed. All

35:26

you need is a couple hundred

35:28

people for that to actually, in

35:30

some way, metastasize. But oddly, a

35:32

lot of it, the only stuff

35:34

that kind of bit me in

35:36

the ass was about comics, really.

35:39

Yes. And some people

35:41

developed you know, peculiar

35:43

parasocial relationships with me.

35:46

Right. Well, I mean, look, here's the

35:48

thing. I always say to

35:50

you when you talk when you and

35:52

I talk about, you know, like, you

35:54

know, not specifically what you brought up

35:56

before about making a video about these

35:59

anti woke guys. But like, you brought

36:01

up things like this, like, like that

36:03

and been like, you know,

36:05

well, where can I do this? And

36:07

I'm always like, you have Amazing

36:09

platforms for yourself that you

36:11

fully control you don't have

36:13

to go on somebody else's

36:15

show and talk about it

36:17

because you're out of control

36:19

that's not in your control

36:21

right and and the bottom

36:23

line is even if you

36:25

don't feel it as the

36:27

the relevancy The audience of

36:29

of this podcast not this

36:31

bonus one, but the the

36:34

main podcast is as substantial

36:36

a platform as I would

36:38

say, you know, 99 %

36:40

of your peers have, right? Or

36:42

could hope to have. And so like

36:44

it does, I think because you just go sit

36:46

in that room you're in right now and do

36:48

it and there's nobody else around, I think sometimes

36:50

you just have no grasp on that. You don't

36:52

get that No, I never do. Right.

36:55

Oh, hundreds of thousands of people just

36:57

heard me say that actual thing. Yeah.

36:59

Yeah, that's true. And, you know, and

37:01

I think that our dynamic, you know,

37:03

works towards, you know, managing

37:05

that properly. And

37:07

I, you know, and there are things I've said

37:09

on here where I literally text you after I'm

37:11

like, yeah, you're, you're gonna probably cut that thing

37:13

out. And you're like, I already did. It's

37:15

pretty. Yeah. Yeah. There's, yeah, there's, sometimes

37:17

there's the like, Hey, did this make

37:19

it in? Nope. Did

37:25

not. Well, I'm glad that

37:27

this all even even if it

37:29

was uncomfortable for you it ended in

37:31

the right spot. It was fine

37:33

I'm pretty much a softy at heart

37:35

and you know, and I think

37:37

Mike appreciates that I think what's happened

37:39

with that generation of comics is

37:41

I'm sort of like this like a

37:43

guy that despite what I think

37:45

they all kind of understand me and

37:47

if they still want to engage

37:49

with me it's because Yeah, I'm like

37:51

I am but they know

37:53

like how I really am,

37:55

you know. Yeah, it's like a

37:57

junkyard dog. It's like here.

37:59

Like rather maybe an old character

38:01

of some kind, like, you

38:04

know, cranky Mark or shit talking

38:06

Mark, because I love doing

38:08

it. Like I went out to

38:10

dinner with Mulaney and Joe

38:12

Mandy and Dan Levy and Max

38:14

Sylvester. Yeah, they invite me

38:16

to those things. And I like to tell stories and

38:18

I like to talk shit. And, you

38:20

know, I'm a, you know, a bright

38:22

person and I like listening to their

38:24

shit. So, but I am, I have

38:26

to accept that I'm kind of this

38:29

old man character to some of them.

38:31

Yeah, I also think that's probably that's,

38:33

that's, that's revealing in the sense that

38:35

you do that. These are, you know,

38:37

some of those guys, you know, all

38:39

of those guys are very funny. And

38:41

here they are like listening to you

38:43

and you, you're getting big laughs out

38:45

of them telling these stories. Like you

38:47

spend your whole life. Getting feedback from

38:50

audiences and here's like a good audience

38:52

and they think what you're saying is

38:54

very funny Why are you gonna keep

38:56

that to yourself then? Like it's it's

38:58

it's giving your brain permission to like

39:00

yeah, I don't go do this somewhere

39:02

else So I get other people to

39:04

laugh and also because like I'm not

39:06

hungry. I'm not really in the game

39:08

in the same way I'm not playing

39:10

the same game. They are yeah, I

39:13

speak with a freedom of

39:15

mind. It was very funny because like, you

39:17

know, with that group and it's always

39:19

sort of like, you know, how's this going

39:21

to land, you know? Yeah. And I

39:23

was talking about, uh, Somebody Somewhere.

39:25

Is that the name of that show? Yeah. Because I'm

39:27

going to, am I going to talk to her? Yeah.

39:29

Oh. Bridget Everett? Yeah. Right. So I didn't know anything.

39:31

I don't know anything. I didn't know anything about her.

39:33

I didn't watch the show at all. But I watched

39:35

all the seasons and I'm like, like, I

39:37

go like, have you guys, what do you think

39:39

of this show? you know, somebody

39:41

somewhere. And as I said, I

39:44

love it, man. He's like, I hate

39:46

it simultaneously. And

39:48

Melanie's like, that was the best. That was

39:50

perfect. Like you literally, I'm looking around for someone

39:52

to, you know, get on board. And right

39:54

as I say, I love it. He's right next

39:56

to me because I hate it. And I'm

39:58

like, oh my God. And then we had to

40:00

have that conversation. Like, how could you

40:02

hate that? Because it's not. There's nothing,

40:05

it's not badly written, it's not, and really

40:07

what it was was that that thing

40:09

either it's gonna get into your heart or

40:11

it's not. And if it doesn't connect

40:13

with your heart, it's just gonna

40:15

be boring and terrible. Like you've

40:17

got to respond to that thing emotionally. Well,

40:20

yes, that's gonna come up soon in

40:22

a future episode. And really, before the Bermiglia

40:24

call happened, my intention of getting on

40:26

the mics with you today was gonna be

40:28

to talk to you right after David

40:30

Kronenberg left the garage. So I have not

40:32

heard from you yet about how that

40:34

talk was. And I know you put a

40:36

lot of prep into that. You watched

40:38

a lot of movies and you did a

40:40

lot of thinking about him. Well,

40:42

yeah, I really like, people like

40:45

him demand that. And, you know,

40:47

no matter how much you're like,

40:49

well, you've seen enough or, you

40:51

know, whatever, I definitely

40:53

need it in order to get a

40:55

full sense of the arc of their

40:57

output and creativity. I really, I really

40:59

have to go into it

41:01

and see where we meet

41:03

and where I meet his

41:05

work. And

41:07

it was very interesting

41:09

because I had one of

41:11

those things where I

41:13

watched, I think his new

41:15

movie and then I

41:17

watched some really old stuff

41:19

and my brain just

41:21

kind of started generating your

41:24

ideas and takes and you

41:26

know where he is you

41:28

know metaphysically spiritually around you

41:30

know how he is with

41:32

you know body dismemberment disembodied

41:34

bodies I wrote this whole

41:36

big page here you know

41:38

manifesting psychic violence physical violence

41:40

harm done by machines symbiosis

41:42

with machines belief versus

41:45

truth, core truth is decomposition. And

41:47

I read that, it looks like

41:49

a math problem. And I, at the

41:51

bottom, I read this to him,

41:53

I said, the depth of his secular

41:55

anti -mysticism is that, you know, he'd

41:57

rather deal with the meat, the

41:59

machine, the mutations of desire and pain.

42:02

And he's like, yeah, okay, that

42:04

makes, yeah, I can, yeah,

42:06

that makes sense, you know. And

42:08

also watching what I became

42:10

fascinated with was what work of

42:12

authors he chose to

42:14

reckon with, you know, because

42:17

I'm a big fan of the movie, The Dead Zone, and

42:20

I've rewatched it several times. And

42:23

then I watched, I haven't seen Naked

42:25

Lunge in years, but I did see

42:27

it, but I did watch his Bruce

42:29

Wagner script, like he wrote the script

42:31

for... Naked lunch and he

42:33

also wrote the script for Cosmopolis,

42:35

which was a Delillo book But he

42:37

Bruce Wagner wrote the script for

42:39

Maps to the Stars, which is a

42:41

difficult novel and it's big and

42:43

I didn't ever got through it but

42:45

But it's a Bruce Wagner script

42:47

and I and I felt like I'd

42:49

seen the movie But I don't

42:51

know if I watched it all the

42:53

way through but I watched it

42:55

all the way through last night and

42:57

it's great It's darkest shit, but

42:59

you know, it's Wagner writing Wagner. So

43:01

like, you know, this is his

43:03

conception of the story and it's kind

43:05

of amazing, especially if you like

43:08

Wagner. And the same with Cosmopolis, I

43:10

talked to him about Delillo and

43:12

Cronenberg had just, he liked the book

43:14

and he just wrote some scenes

43:16

just with Delillo's language. And

43:18

after he wrote a bunch of scenes,

43:20

he's like, I think this is a movie.

43:22

And it's kind of a great movie.

43:24

And it made me re -excited about Delillo

43:26

because it's hard to pull off. And then

43:28

we talked a bit about that, about,

43:30

you know, working from novels. But we also

43:32

talked a lot about, you know, we

43:34

talked about... the new movie,

43:36

The Shrouds, a lot. And we talked

43:39

about scanners a bit. We talked about

43:41

the brood a bit. We talked about the

43:43

fly a bit. We talked about the

43:45

history of violence. We

43:47

talked about the

43:49

very first movie, Stereo,

43:52

which he surprised anybody ever

43:55

sees. And yeah, so

43:57

it was a pretty in the

43:59

brood, which I watched with Kit,

44:01

because that's her favorite, Cronenberg. And

44:03

yeah, so I had a very

44:06

full sort of sense in my head

44:08

of places to go with him.

44:10

And he was a pleasant guy. Oh

44:12

yeah, he's a nice guy. You know, he's one of

44:14

those guys that when he stops talking, he stops talking.

44:17

You know, like, yeah, it's not that he's

44:19

not a conversationalist, but I put stuff out

44:21

there and he'd say something and I noticed

44:23

like, oh, he's done with that. So I'd

44:25

have to, you know, keep it going like

44:28

that. Hit the next button. Yeah. Exactly. It

44:30

wasn't so much questions, you know. Right. A

44:32

lot of times I don't ask questions. I

44:34

just want them to respond to ideas. The

44:36

ideas, yeah. Yeah. But it

44:38

was good. Was it? Yeah, that's great. I

44:40

mean, it's one of those things where

44:42

the the nice benefit doing an interview like

44:44

that for you is that you get

44:46

to do a little like film school of

44:48

this person, like a crash chorus, which

44:50

obviously you've seen Kronenberg movies through a good

44:53

portion of your life. It's not new

44:55

to you, but it's nice. I always find

44:57

it's nice to get get it like

44:59

a good concentrated hit. Well,

45:01

yeah, because it's, you know,

45:04

You don't you don't reckon with

45:06

movies all the time, you

45:08

know like if the fly we

45:10

all know yeah most people

45:12

nerds know scanners You know and

45:15

videodrome which I can't imagine

45:17

aged well And there's you know

45:19

quite a few that I'd

45:21

never seen but but watching Cosmopolis

45:23

and Maps to the Stars

45:26

was just mind -blowing to me because

45:29

they're, you know, Cosmopolis is interesting because he does shoot

45:31

a certain way. And that was one of the things

45:33

I talked to him about that it all seems, you

45:36

know, early on it was very stark. And then

45:38

I realized it goes all the way through and

45:40

it's a decision he makes. So he was able

45:42

to speak to that a bit, speak to how

45:44

he works with actors a bit, you

45:46

know, speak to, you know, these themes

45:48

that he has, though he doesn't see

45:50

them as themes. So I kind of

45:52

reframed it that as an artist that,

45:54

you know, you're going to, whether they're

45:56

themes or not, you find yourself in

45:58

the same zone. Yeah. As time goes

46:00

on, maybe not, you know, continuing to

46:02

understand them, Yes. know, we

46:04

talked about the nature of resolution, not

46:07

existing, yeah, it was good. It

46:09

was good. Well, good. I'm excited to

46:11

listen to it. I I you

46:13

love having directors on and he's a

46:15

top one. He's, you know, there's

46:17

only one David Kronenberg. That's right. And

46:19

it's interesting that, you know, in

46:21

talking about the idea of horror as

46:23

a genre. and then, you know,

46:26

I actually, in my sort of frenzy

46:28

of thinking, you know, I went

46:30

and looked up the definition of horror,

46:32

not as a film genre, but

46:34

just as a word. A word, yeah.

46:36

And it's kind of, it's kind

46:38

of in a sort of

46:40

way, you know, because, you know,

46:42

he doesn't like genres. He doesn't like

46:45

necessarily the idea of body horror.

46:47

I mean, he knows, you know, what

46:49

they're saying, but it's a critical

46:51

word. But the word horror is

46:53

an intense feeling of fear, shock, or

46:55

disgust. And I'm like, will you do

46:57

that. Can

47:00

you get board with that, at

47:02

least. Yeah, of course. All All

47:04

right. Well, good, man. Good

47:06

that that happened. I look forward

47:08

to listening to it And I look

47:10

forward to your eventual talk once

47:12

again with Berbiglia. Yeah, me too. All

47:14

right, buddy. you