0:00

Alright, let's do this.

0:02

How are you? What the

0:04

fuckers? What the fuck buddies?

0:06

What the fucksters? What the

0:08

fucksters? All right, let's do this.

0:11

How are you with the the

0:13

What the fuck buddies? What the

0:15

fucksters? I'm What the fuck nicks? What's

0:17

happening? I'm fuck Mark Marin. This

0:19

is my podcast. Welcome to it. It's

0:21

It's that time of year. I hope,

0:23

I hope you're holding up. up. I

0:25

I hope everything's coming together. I

0:27

hope you're getting into the mode,

0:29

locked into the rhythm, the locked into

0:31

the vibe. have a If you have

0:34

a family, I hope all the are

0:36

are coming together. I I hope you're fortifying

0:38

your brain and... and buttressing yourself for

0:40

what's to come. I hope you've

0:42

got your you've in order in to keep

0:44

everybody happy. happy. I don't know, I

0:46

don't pay much attention to it. it.

0:48

You You know, I don't have kids.

0:50

kids. And I don't know you know, I don't

0:53

know when Hanukkah starts. That's this week too.

0:55

I'm a bad a bad Jew, but a Jew nonetheless.

0:57

And I don't I don't really

0:59

know don't I don't register it

1:01

other than like, why is everything so

1:04

quiet? quiet? Why Why is everything so so slow?

1:06

What's happening out there? out Why am

1:08

I not? not? What is going on? on?

1:10

Is Is everyone okay? How How come

1:12

no one's texting me or calling

1:14

me or me or me in the in

1:16

the thing? but that's happening on all levels right

1:18

now. I don't know if it's my brain or

1:20

if it's real, it's my brain or I don't

1:23

know what happens during this time. This is a weird few

1:25

weeks, the sort of Christmas

1:27

This is even just post the sort

1:29

don't, it gets me into a

1:31

zone. I don't know if

1:33

it's Thanksgiving. It gets me into a zone.

1:35

I don't know if it's pensive or

1:37

I'm going to go with pensive

1:39

and thoughtful can can times can

1:42

feel like depression depending on what what

1:44

you're being pensive and thoughtful

1:46

about about, but just sort of changes

1:48

and slows down slows down the

1:50

air feels feels heavy. weight of The weight

1:52

of the atmosphere kind of feels heavy,

1:54

but I like it. It's, there's a

1:56

poetry to it all and I'm gonna

1:58

go out and sit. New Mexico. and

2:01

feel that. be pensive and

2:03

and thoughtful, but not depressed.

2:05

Not, I'm going I'm gonna I'm going to

2:07

that. that. It's not

2:10

not depression, God damn on the

2:12

show is Bruce Bruce Valanch.

2:14

I guess guess he's best known as

2:16

a comedy writer. He's specifically the the guy

2:18

who was the head writer for

2:20

the the Academy He was on Hollywood on

2:22

a lot. He wrote for dozens of

2:25

comedians and singers and variety shows,

2:27

but I just remember him seemingly throughout

2:29

my entire life as just this my

2:31

and glasses. this haircut very specific. It

2:33

doesn't change. He had them when he

2:35

was here. had them but it was

2:37

just, it's a haircut a haircut specific glasses.

2:40

I don't know I don't know

2:42

what you would call the haircut. It's sort

2:44

of a a mop-top. blonde and usually wears

2:46

very colorful glasses, but he's a very

2:48

funny guy a a very old school way

2:50

he's been around a lot of

2:52

years of years he had a lot of

2:55

great stories about the evolution from, from,

2:57

know, writing for for club

2:59

entertainers and then into shows shows and

3:01

then into writing for comics and

3:03

writing for the Oscars. Old time

3:05

stuff and great. I love talking

3:07

to these guys because because they, a

3:10

different time. time. It was a different

3:12

time when show business and

3:14

comedy was innately Jewish in its

3:16

rhythm and in its practitioners

3:18

and now and hard

3:20

to find a Jew around. find a Jew know,

3:22

I don't know where they're all going. know where but

3:24

the entire but the of spectrum of

3:26

comedy has gotten more diverse

3:28

and eclectic and interesting, but it

3:30

just seems as show business

3:32

contracts, so does

3:34

as show of rhythm

3:37

of the the sort of rhythm

3:39

of the Jews of your My 2025 tour kicks off

3:41

in kicks off in Sacramento, at

3:43

at Crest Theater Friday, January 10th.

3:46

I'm at the the Napa Uptown Theater

3:48

on Saturday, on Saturday, Fort Collins,

3:50

Fort Collins, Colorado, Lincoln Center

3:52

Performance Hall on Friday, January

3:54

17th. Boulder, Colorado at the

3:56

Boulder Theater on Saturday, January

3:58

16th. Santa Barbara, California. the Lobero Theater

4:00

on Thursday January 30th San Luis Obisbo

4:03

at the Fremont Center on Friday January

4:05

31st. Monterey California at the Golden State

4:07

Theater on Saturday February 1st and then

4:09

I'm coming to Iowa Missouri North Carolina

4:12

Tennessee Kentucky Oklahoma Texas South Carolina Illinois

4:14

and Michigan going to be adding some

4:16

dates in the Northeast. as I head

4:19

into recording a special. You can go

4:21

to wtph pod.com/tour for all my dates

4:23

and links to tickets. Yes. So I'm

4:26

just trying to, I'm coming down man.

4:28

I have to frame things properly. I

4:30

don't know if you have that issue,

4:32

but. If I have a little bit

4:35

of free time, I'm going to think

4:37

I'm not doing enough or I'm not

4:39

good at what I'm doing or that

4:42

I'm not creative anymore. I have a

4:44

full list of things I go to

4:46

that I can use as bats to

4:48

beat the shit out of myself when

4:51

I have any sort of downtime. But

4:53

the truth of the matter is, this

4:55

last year, I just have to see

4:58

it in terms of whatever my goals

5:00

were or whatever I wanted to do

5:02

or saw in my life. at some

5:04

point that I would like to do

5:07

and acknowledge what has happened. What went

5:09

on this year? I haven't, I had

5:11

to put my tour on hold a

5:14

while back because I did some acting

5:16

and I wanted to do acting and

5:18

it was important to me to sort

5:20

of figure out whether that's something I

5:23

want to do with my life, whether

5:25

I enjoy it, whether I'm good at

5:27

it and whatnot. It's creative and it's

5:30

something that, you know, I was curious

5:32

about. So this year it just seems

5:34

that I was doing that I was

5:36

doing that. And it's not that comedy

5:39

took a back seat or just was

5:41

that I wasn't doing it. I was,

5:43

but I wasn't doing it compulsively and

5:46

constantly, like I always do. But I

5:48

was doing this other thing. And I

5:50

just got back from New York after

5:52

shooting that part in the Bruce Springsteen

5:55

movie. I gotta say it was really

5:57

kind of great having... a bit of

5:59

an of an the boss

6:02

because I interviewed him to

6:04

I interviewed him to out of of come

6:06

out of the set felt like I felt

6:08

like it or if I felt like

6:10

it was okay to sit to sit down

6:12

next to Bruce and chit-chat.

6:14

I want to say to say again

6:16

an amazing what an amazing

6:18

experience that was. Because you look at

6:20

the that of that guy's work as

6:22

an artist, and he is a real

6:24

artist. and to just just

6:26

hang out with a a

6:28

person, as an older person.

6:31

person and you know, just kind of... kind of

6:33

be in that be in the light

6:35

the dark light of Bruce light

6:38

of Bruce Springsteen was

6:40

quite so the meat I look

6:42

I feel okay you know I feel

6:44

all right the I feel thing

6:46

has been You know, I feel

6:48

alright. two years The vegan thing has

6:50

been going on almost two years. And

6:53

I don't know, I saw some

6:55

reel on Instagram of some Armenian ghost

6:57

kitchen that was doing some sort

6:59

of brisket that looked like some kind

7:01

of Armenian pastrami. Sure enough, it

7:03

was some form of it was some form of

7:05

was gonna make me start that was gonna make

7:07

that's gonna be what I eat

7:09

when I eat the meat. I eat when I

7:11

eat the meat. But I pulled back from it.

7:13

it. Today's episode is sponsored by

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squarespace.com/WTO offer code WTOTF. All

8:21

right? Okay, let's talk to

8:24

Funny Guy. Let's have some

8:26

fun. So. Happy holidays, and

8:28

I'm excited to share this

8:30

conversation with you. Bruce Volanche

8:33

has a new podcast called

8:35

Oscars. What were they thinking,

8:37

which you can get on

8:40

all podcast platforms? He's a

8:42

real deal. Funny guy, comedy

8:44

writer, a lot of experience,

8:46

a lot of stories. This

8:49

is me talking to Bruce

8:51

Volanche. Well

9:01

how are you adapting to the world? How's the swell

9:03

adaptation? But it gets to a point right where you

9:05

just sort of like you just you live the life

9:07

you live and fuck it. That's exactly right. There's nothing

9:09

else you can do. I mean I would try but

9:11

try to keep up you know like everybody else hello Portugal.

9:13

Yes all of my seven you know figure friends are going

9:15

to Portugal. Are they? No, a few. I mean, but that

9:17

started a while back. That started in New York. Right, that

9:20

was the, you can buy your way in business. Yeah,

9:22

right. I mean, I thought about that, not that I

9:24

necessarily have the money, but I mean, I don't know

9:26

anyone in fucking Portugal. I don't speak the language. I

9:28

don't even know what they eat there. Exactly right. So

9:30

the amount of loneliness available for me in Portugal is,

9:32

you know, relative to the amount of discomfort I'll feel

9:34

in authoritarian. Is that true? Oh,

9:36

yeah. But I'll say I

9:38

can do that. Well, they

9:40

don't speak Portuguese. And they're, you

9:42

know, they're expats, but it's

9:44

not like, you know, Paris

9:46

in the 20s, I don't

9:48

think. No, I mean, they're

9:50

probably up in a villa.

9:52

Yeah, right. And they're sitting

9:54

in a room. Well, they

9:56

wind up going to the

9:58

Algarve and Porto and places

10:00

where the tourists go. A

10:02

lot of Californian people move to

10:05

Porto. Right. Like in 16.

10:07

Well, that sounds like a

10:09

nice week. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

10:11

No, I'm, you know, I'm

10:13

interested in staying here. and

10:15

fighting the fight for whatever

10:17

that whatever that means. whatever

10:19

that's worth. What does that

10:21

mean to you? Well, you

10:23

know, I mean, I'm a

10:25

gay activist I suppose I I'm

10:27

a the gay icon so

10:29

I must well be an activist

10:32

and And it's on you

10:34

to do that. Well, yeah.

10:36

Responsibility. You know, there has

10:38

to be a loyal opposition

10:40

and there has to be

10:42

a resistance and so you

10:44

know, I'm happy to be

10:46

a part of it It's

10:48

not interesting though that you

10:50

know, there are certain groups

10:52

I guess you would call them

10:54

marginalized groups that have built

10:56

their entire communities on resistance

10:58

so the the idea of, locking

11:00

into a more active resistance is

11:02

you would think muscle memory. Yeah,

11:05

absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And it's always

11:07

when when gets involved, you know,

11:09

when, when government is being motivated

11:11

by religion, it's always bad for

11:13

people who aren't religious. Right, yeah.

11:15

Which is, of course, the whole

11:18

idea of America was religious people

11:20

created a place for people who

11:22

were not religious as well as

11:24

people who are. The people that

11:26

are were always kind of full

11:28

on whack jabs. Exactly. Exactly.

11:31

But do you sense like, you know,

11:33

I, you know, when you're coming over,

11:36

I, I, you know, I'm 61. Yeah.

11:38

So somehow or another, your, your head

11:40

has been familiar to me my entire

11:42

life. Wow. One place or the other,

11:44

you know, mostly on television. Of course.

11:46

Yeah. That's what I tell people. I

11:48

don't know you personally. Hollywood squares. I

11:51

was, I was to the left of

11:53

Whoopi, if that's possible. But that was,

11:55

which, which version Hollywood Squares Ah, the,

11:57

the version. The iteration of the late

11:59

90s. Yeah. Like 96 to 2002, was the

12:01

host. I was the host.

12:03

I just remember square from when I was

12:05

that square from when I was a kid. just

12:07

seemed, to talk to I guess what I wanna talk

12:09

to you about, it seemed like I I was a

12:12

kid, if it was relative to me being a kid,

12:14

the show business show a fun little

12:16

town. that you know people people seemed to

12:18

know each other and these guys, the

12:20

people that you saw in show

12:22

business, even on the roasts then right they were they

12:24

they all seem to seemed to live around

12:26

the corner from each other and we

12:28

all knew who they were. who true,

12:30

it was a much smaller universe. smaller

12:32

universe and and like I just remember I some of

12:34

the shows some for. shows you wrote for like what

12:36

sunny and share yeah and did you write

12:38

for Tony for Tony Orlando? No was

12:40

the one the one I did I was was

12:42

doing another show that summer that Fred

12:45

that Fred Silverman who ran CBS

12:47

the the time, he ran all

12:49

three networks at one point. point

12:51

Wow, Individually, I was hoping he'd

12:53

take over PBS to see

12:55

what he would do there. do there

12:57

But had education fun. He believed in the host format.

12:59

Yeah. format, Sonny and Cher, Tony Sonny and

13:01

Cher, and I came out here with out

13:03

here with Manhattan And we did a summer series.

13:05

And series and was was across

13:08

the the Manhattan Transfer. That's what got you to

13:10

LA. That that me to LA. Okay, so let's

13:12

go back then. you grow up

13:14

grow up? New Jersey, I

13:16

know Paterson You I grew up in, my grew

13:18

up in lived grandmother lived in

13:20

Oh, that's that's very, very, very, very, very rural when

13:23

I I was growing up. Yeah, Yeah.

13:25

that's of the first of the

13:27

suburbs Right, that's where my

13:29

mother came from. So my grandmother

13:31

would go to So my for

13:33

some specific Jewish for some Yeah, I

13:35

don't remember something. Yeah. I Yeah, there

13:37

was a place what. Yeah, there was a

13:39

place, maybe, Maybe it could have have

13:41

been. Temple Emanuel. But Pat is, Paterson's got good good

13:43

history William Carlos Williams, a couple know know,

13:45

even then, I then I mean it to

13:47

kept saying to ourselves it's dying

13:50

on the was it was called

13:52

the City. It was a textile center

13:54

center. And then got much cheaper in

13:56

the south to make make Silk. So, but

13:58

I remember well growing up that. They

14:00

were still some textile factories and they

14:02

would dump die Right into the water.

14:04

Yeah, and we used to say anything

14:06

you catch there is a rainbow trout

14:08

Is everything that was the first comedy?

14:10

They look like pride pride fish. Yeah,

14:12

they look like whose joke was that

14:14

your dad's your mom's my very own

14:17

Really? Yeah, that was the first joke.

14:19

They didn't joke about such things. No,

14:21

no, but they did have a great

14:23

stuff my mother was a showgirl Monquet.

14:25

She really wanted to be a performer

14:27

Yeah, no, she didn't have the legs

14:29

for that. She wasn't too short, but

14:31

she wanted to, she just loved to

14:33

perform and she married a doctor instead.

14:36

And my father, of course, optometrist. Oh,

14:38

that's one of the easier one. Well,

14:40

because he would have been an ophthalmologist,

14:42

but he couldn't afford medical school. Oh,

14:44

but his parents were optometrists, which is

14:46

bizarre. His mother was the only female

14:48

optometristometrist or the first. gave her a

14:50

ribbon or something right back. It seems

14:52

like a very practical... level of doctoring.

14:54

Yeah, you know, I worked in his

14:57

office and that's where I got my

14:59

affinity for glasses, which I'm wearing red

15:01

glasses now, but they have no prescription

15:03

in them because you don't even need

15:05

glasses. I had cataract surgery, so when

15:07

you get get cataract surgery, they put

15:09

lenses with lenses and they say, which

15:11

eye would you like for distance and

15:13

which for close up? And I said,

15:16

just give me the distance because I

15:18

wear glasses anyway, I'll get reading glasses.

15:20

Yeah, it's worked out great. But I

15:22

started my love of all that with

15:24

my father's office when the crazy frames

15:26

would come. Sure, sure. We call them

15:28

the fat lady frames. Yeah, they're kind

15:30

of like demedna. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I

15:32

love those and I would take them

15:35

home and he would say, which patient

15:37

took, why are these missing? Yeah, I

15:39

don't know. I think it was Mrs.

15:41

Shapiro, I think that she decided she

15:43

needed sunglasses for the shore. Have you

15:45

noticed that aginging Jewish? as they age

15:47

their age, their glasses

15:49

get bigger. Yeah, it's a

15:51

very weird thing. to find.

15:54

find. is my theory.

15:56

theory. You know, as they're grappling

15:58

around the the nightstand. It's

16:00

a big, big hunger, Aristotle, or NASA's

16:02

gotta be the

16:04

size of an anchor.

16:06

I know, exactly. an

16:08

When I first

16:10

came out of Irving

16:12

When I who was

16:15

a big agent. I

16:17

remember Lazar, who was a

16:19

was known for these

16:21

gigantic glasses. Yeah, him.

16:23

yeah. yeah. Swift, yeah. It was

16:25

known for myself buying

16:27

a pair. I'm like.

16:29

yeah. I at that age now? I this the

16:31

turn that you take? These aren't them. I'm like, am

16:34

I at that age now? Is this the Yeah, these are aviaries,

16:36

but the other ones I got are just bulky

16:38

horn rooms and it's not quite right yet.

16:40

I got to wait a couple of years. I

16:42

to wait a couple think. think I think so but you pasty you're red

16:44

glasses really make your face glasses I like make

16:46

They work for you. no they work mom wants to,

16:48

is she performing? Do you go to the

16:50

city? you see Broadway shows? a lot of benefits.

16:53

Yes, we would see every Broadway show. My

16:55

father put money in musicals. He loved musicals. money

16:57

Broadway musicals as an investment? He, as an investment.

16:59

Oh, wow. He was as an investment he to

17:01

go and watch who was the tired businessman who Phil to

17:03

go and watch and and people like that. And

17:05

a course, that's where I got it. I'm

17:07

mean, I was looking at all of

17:09

them. got got to see all those

17:11

guys. Yeah, I I got to see them

17:13

all live on Broadway and I thought, I

17:15

thought, is what I want to do. want

17:17

to do. Where factor factor in? Well Well, Grouch was

17:19

on television. He seemed

17:22

like was he seemed like a because we that

17:24

was earlier. movies your life, right?

17:26

He was on Your Bet Your

17:28

Life. your quick. right he was on your

17:30

bet your life that guy so quick

17:32

I met him later in

17:35

life yeah when he was

17:37

slower him later in he was there

17:39

he who earned every dime he

17:41

was there in Fleming who up with

17:44

who dime yeah the woman who wound up with

17:46

he was estate whatever but he was He

17:48

had a It was sour but the

17:50

time I met him He was He

17:52

know, he wasn't the kind of the

17:54

the the flicking the groucho, the yeah, yeah

17:56

dancing around and dancing because of age. I

17:59

think so so. whatever else. relevance relevance.

18:01

hadn't and whatever hadn't happened

18:03

that he wanted to have know

18:05

I don't know exactly what

18:07

that was. don't know if it don't

18:09

know if it, for some

18:11

people is ever ever to happen,

18:13

even when they have everything. everything

18:15

yeah It's crazy, right? Yeah. it's

18:17

a mindset yeah what else could he

18:19

want? what Yeah, fucking Groucho Marx. Exactly. And you

18:21

had dick habit like at his speech Dick

18:23

Havett time. Yeah. and television. Yeah. Yeah. And

18:25

they, uh, but guess, you know, know,

18:27

when, you know, you know, when they ran the

18:30

don't want to be suddenly

18:32

relegated to the suddenly relegated to the side

18:34

when do you start So when

18:36

do you start working as? in show business. I was a

18:38

was a child actor, never a was

18:40

never a child be having this be

18:42

having this conversation in rehab. right. I did

18:44

did stock, a lot of a lot of

18:46

summer stock, I went to a

18:48

camp that was run by Ted

18:50

Mac who who was the Simon Cowell

18:52

of his day, it of was

18:54

Ted Mac's original amateur hour, which he was

18:56

in Jersey. It was was in New

18:59

York. He had had inherited it from

19:01

a guy named Major Bowes who did a show.

19:03

show. Okay. And it brought brought he's famous

19:05

for rejecting Elvis because Elvis was

19:07

too dirty. dirty. And Ann Margaret, who I who

19:09

I worked with for years

19:11

as a as a was on the

19:13

show and she lost to

19:15

a woman who played Lady of

19:17

Spain on a of Well, there

19:19

you go. leaf. Well there you go.

19:22

The crowd went to be a

19:24

thing. used to be a thing. Yeah. But he was

19:26

a big deal, deal It was a

19:28

big television show. a big ran this camp

19:30

because he couldn't have kids and

19:32

he wanted to be surrounded by children

19:34

who were, and it was like

19:36

fame in the Berkshires. Yeah. And so

19:38

I was a child actor and by

19:40

farmed us out. We did commercials,

19:42

we did fame in different places. So he

19:44

was the manager as well, I was a

19:46

child actor and he farmed you had another agent.

19:48

commercials. We did you know, I never really

19:50

different at it but my parents was the

19:52

because they saw I was happy when I

19:55

was doing it. So they said go go

19:57

perform only my they're only that I was that I

19:59

couldn't make a living They kept something to of

20:01

the fall back on them.

20:03

They said why don't you be

20:05

don't I started writing for the

20:07

high school Newspaper, okay, and

20:09

that was working out. Well, and

20:11

they said that was that's great

20:13

You could work for a newspaper

20:15

oh, newspapers will never could work for a

20:17

newspaper know They just will never die. Ever?

20:19

Oh, no. You know, they just, they, took a

20:21

while gone and so are newspapers. It took a while.

20:23

Yeah, it study journalism So I studied

20:25

journalism in theater at the

20:27

Ohio State University the Ohio State Yes Okay,

20:29

yeah, uh-huh. How was that that for That I

20:31

loved It was great. was it was, uh...

20:33

a five-year, you know, everybody was in

20:35

a stay out of in a stay out

20:37

you know. It was not... You

20:40

take the know, it was, it old and

20:42

I'm here to tell you and

20:44

you know, to tell you that, got away.

20:46

They all found a way. all found a

20:48

found a way. George Bush found

20:50

a way. George Bush found a way, way. Bush nobody

20:52

was, nobody was, nobody Nobody wanted to

20:54

go. and that's a that's a whole

20:56

other show. I was there was there for

20:58

five years and got two degrees in the,

21:01

in the, in... theater journalism. was

21:03

that What was that like to what was

21:05

there 75? I was to 70. 70

21:07

In fact, my graduation in

21:09

70 was because there were we tried

21:11

to burn down the ROTC

21:13

building. I didn't because I was the editor of

21:15

the I was the editor of the

21:17

school Sure you were there with a were there

21:19

with there I was there right right being

21:21

fair and balanced So that's why the So

21:23

that's why the graduation was It It

21:25

was cancelled and and Walter got a I got

21:27

a kill fee. And when I got to

21:29

meet him later on in life, I

21:31

told him, he said, yeah, I was

21:34

hoping there'd be more riots that there'd be

21:36

more riots that spring. I No, I wouldn't have

21:38

to work. did did you feel at that

21:40

time, were you involved with comedy you involved with through

21:42

the in any way? was things coming through

21:44

the campus? was writing a I was acting

21:46

there and I was writing a column

21:48

for the paper before I was the

21:50

editor Crassner around doing the realist doing the of that

21:53

kind of stuff? he he was. were in San

21:55

Francisco. Yeah, and... Right. And you were aware

21:57

of that stuff? of that stuff? Yes,

21:59

absolutely. It seemed like there was

22:01

a time like, you know, post-Lenny Bruce

22:03

where comedians, not unlike the rest of

22:05

the country, were starting to adapt to

22:08

the new world of free thinking. That's

22:10

right. When it was really free thinking.

22:12

We always, there was a humor magazine

22:14

called The Sundial. Yeah. And I wasn't,

22:16

I was on the lantern, I couldn't

22:18

be on the Sundial, they were arch

22:21

enemies. But the Sundial was edited by

22:23

a guy we called Joe Vio Bob,

22:25

Joe Vio Bob Stein, who became R.

22:27

of goosebumps and what was that goosebumps

22:29

are the children's series of books that

22:32

have become movies yeah okay yeah and

22:34

he's like phenomenally rich from this thing

22:36

yeah obviously i took the wrong path

22:38

you seem to do it right but

22:40

he and and he had a girlfriend

22:43

named Springfield rifle her real name Phyllis

22:45

rifle yeah yeah she was that that

22:47

that time the tone of the thing

22:49

so with the so the hippie thing

22:51

was happening The happy thing was, yes,

22:54

it was, it was, we were. coming

22:56

out of beat Nick and into hippie.

22:58

Yeah, yeah, so that was a transition

23:00

65. Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, when

23:02

Dylan went acoustic. Sure. When Dylan went

23:04

electric, I mean, he was, yeah. By

23:07

the time you graduate and come back

23:09

to New York, it's a different city.

23:11

It was, actually, I went right to

23:13

Chicago. I got a job on the

23:15

Chicago Tribune of all places, which was

23:18

arts, a really conservative newspaper, but they

23:20

liked my style. up so I felt

23:22

I had made my mark. But I

23:24

was I was there. You like Chicago?

23:26

I loved it. Oh, I still love

23:29

it. Did you go, were you out

23:31

looking at the second city people? Yes.

23:33

I lived next door to second city

23:35

in the place called Piper's Alley. Yeah.

23:37

Which was like a hippie mini mall.

23:40

Uh-huh. And second city was there and

23:42

the Belushi brothers and the Murray brothers

23:44

and dry candy. They were all kids.

23:46

Yeah, we were all around the same

23:48

age. Was Dell close around? Dell was

23:50

the Dell was directing. Yeah, at seconds.

23:53

At seconds. before he branched

23:55

off. right. Yeah, he had

23:57

several side hustles

23:59

as well. well. Yeah, and

24:01

was like. the bridge between

24:04

players players, which bridge

24:06

was in may shally berman is shally

24:08

Berman yes guys. But

24:10

they were down

24:12

in Hyde Park and

24:15

generation. were up at were in

24:17

the old town. Right. So it was a

24:19

generational difference. It old was, and Dell was

24:21

kind of the del was kind of the the bridge from

24:23

he was that and was was uh... these new kids.

24:25

Did you get involved with it? with it i i

24:27

wanted to, but the paper wouldn't let me.

24:30

let me i you have to choose and I thought i

24:32

thought I'm staying with with the paper. I was

24:34

happy doing what I was doing what I the

24:36

paper. But you'd go down there and watch? I

24:38

would go next door all the time I see

24:40

the thing. I just didn't trust myself, I

24:42

guess, I because, didn't know, I myself, I guess, because, you know, I was,

24:44

I, I had... morphed out of

24:46

child acting because I wasn't childlike. I looked 40 and

24:49

I had looked and I was I

24:51

had a deep voice and

24:53

I was heavy and I

24:55

was always getting people who were authentically

24:57

authentically was a kid. So I I was

24:59

a kid. myself as an didn't

25:02

trust myself as an actor. So

25:04

I was happy to be on the

25:06

paper covering and I would do commercials and

25:08

I started doing at a every night at

25:11

a club called where I'd go on

25:13

go on 11 o 'clock and do the

25:15

news of... news of the Okay, Oh, okay. was

25:17

was a piano bar bar and who

25:19

were in shows in Chicago in

25:21

Chicago would hang out there. Stars. I mean, I people,

25:23

road companies, and there were also

25:25

a lot of people who would come

25:27

to promote things. And I was

25:29

always interviewing them. That was my gig

25:31

at the Trib. interviewing So I got

25:33

to know a lot of them.

25:35

Were you doing sort of Oh, yeah. So I

25:37

got to know a For the news? you doing

25:39

I was doing one -liners for the

25:41

news, yes. for the news? Yes. telling stories. And

25:43

you got good got good I did. did.

25:45

Oh I had fun. And I played

25:47

Mr. which was was That's the place.

25:49

I did, I opened. opened. I opened for Lana Cantrell

25:51

at Mr. Kelly's. And I had a great time. But I also, I

25:54

didn't but think that was I didn't think

25:56

that was exactly what I wanted to

25:58

do what what had happened was I

26:00

met that middler. Okay. Well wait, Mr.

26:02

Kelly's though, like were you freak, as

26:05

a reporter, did you have to go

26:07

watch all those shows? Did you go

26:09

see like Driesen and those guys? I

26:12

did. Tom Driesen and Tim Reeve. Yeah,

26:14

Tim and Tom. Yeah, absolutely. And everybody

26:16

came through there. I just went to,

26:19

I was in Chicago doing a show

26:21

last year and there's a big exhibit

26:23

about Mr. One of the kids of

26:25

the original owners did a documentary which

26:28

I'm in, which is all about, which

26:30

is all about, called Live Ebister Kelly's,

26:32

and so, and he's kind of been

26:35

promoting the legend, the lore. But see,

26:37

like to me, that's what their name.

26:39

Okay. But like to me, like even

26:42

that, you know, what you come out

26:44

of. Like, you know, I can't be

26:46

nostalgic for it because, you know, I

26:48

didn't live in it. Right. But it

26:51

just seemed like it was an entirely

26:53

different vibe and it has to be

26:55

not just generational, but just how there

26:58

was something special about things, I think,

27:00

then. I agree. I think there was

27:02

a certain kind of sophistication that Hugh

27:05

Hefner marketed. Oh, yes. Came out of

27:07

Chicago. He's a marketer in Chicago. Sure.

27:09

Play boy was a marketing ploy. Yeah.

27:11

There were people who were actually living

27:14

that life But of course everybody then

27:16

tried to emulate that but it was

27:18

it was a lot a lot smarter

27:21

when you were actually in the middle

27:23

of it But they did it did

27:25

come out of all of that, but

27:28

the whole that whole nightclub scene has

27:30

gone away Yeah, no, it's all the

27:32

and also there was a time where

27:34

that kind of like urban intellectual kind

27:37

of held court, you know, everywhere yeah

27:39

And just Dick Cavitt, there was a

27:41

time where there was a full range

27:44

of, of, it just show business was

27:46

so, it just seemed smaller and more

27:48

exciting. It was. It was smaller and

27:51

more exciting and part, yeah, I mean,

27:53

you could go into a clinically, I

27:55

mean, multinationals came in and bought the

27:57

big studios and the television. came

28:00

in then the internet came in

28:02

and everything out. And out and apps universe

28:04

got gigantic. so and and reality television yeah

28:06

and then stars out of people

28:08

who are, who ability for, a

28:10

date. a date right but But the ability

28:12

for, for like, I think think culturally

28:14

know, whether you liked it

28:16

or not, it or you know, know

28:18

three options. options yeah And so there was an intimacy

28:20

to that. Like if you was an intimacy

28:22

to that. but you didn't see

28:24

it, okay, fine, but most

28:26

people did. So there You know what

28:28

I mean? Exactly. There was

28:30

a communal element. Right. Now you you don't

28:32

know what what the fuck or even how

28:34

to get Or even how to get they the phone.

28:36

million people three show they consider it

28:38

a hit to a show, they in the

28:41

day what was it like hit. Yeah, and back

28:43

mean day, what was it like 25 million? Yeah,

28:45

I stay on the air you had

28:47

but stay on the air. You had at least the air.

28:49

If you could get you could, if you

28:51

could get were like a Bafa, then you a Bafa

28:53

smashed. But in 30 to a bopho you had to

28:55

get, in order to stay on you

28:57

had to get I think it

28:59

was of 17, which is how many. of 17 so

29:01

is how many everything fragmented now. all fragmented

29:03

now you so when do you so

29:06

you move back? Do you move

29:08

to New York? to No? I New from

29:10

to Chicago from Columbus, Ohio, where'd you

29:12

meet bet? I where'd met bet in

29:14

Chicago. She was was. She'd been on Broadway been

29:16

on Broadway doing fitler on the roof

29:18

and she would go down the street to

29:20

the improv and the improv in

29:22

New York the York on

29:24

in New right and next

29:27

to 44th. That's right the to end

29:29

of inappropriate jokes no end of

29:31

inappropriate jokes. She'd bring her Dyke it was that

29:33

kind of that kind of era. So, and she would

29:35

she would get up and she

29:37

was the only singer, she would

29:40

get up and sing, up and

29:42

occasionally she would say something. she would say

29:44

something, he called me and said, me

29:46

got her I've got her booking at Kelly's. Who

29:48

called you you, Bud? knew Bud because Bud

29:50

represented Freddie Prince, and I I had gotten

29:52

to know know, had come to come

29:55

to, to to Kelly's, and I had

29:57

gone to see him. He opened

29:59

for Jonah. who was a jazz musician and

30:01

that crowd was not interested in Freddie

30:03

Prince at all. What do you think

30:06

of him? I thought he was wonderful.

30:08

I thought he was a Hungarian, Puerto

30:10

Rican, he was a Hungarian, he was

30:12

a Hungarian, Puerto Rican, he was a

30:14

Hungarian, Hungarian, he was a Hungarian, Hungarian,

30:17

he was a Hungarian, Hungarian, and Bud

30:19

called me and said, listen, if you

30:21

like Freddie, you're going to love this

30:23

girl. And that was before Freddie went

30:25

to LA, probably. That was before Freddie,

30:27

right before he went to LA, and

30:30

I will tell you the story, he

30:32

bombed at Kelly. Yeah. And then he

30:34

went to LA and he got Chico

30:36

and the man almost immediately. And then

30:38

Mitzi took him in. And a year

30:41

later he was a huge star. Yeah.

30:43

And he came back to Kelly's as

30:45

a headliner. Yeah, fuck you. And he

30:47

went out, did the same exact... act

30:49

word for word, he had done the

30:52

year before, and they screamed and cheered

30:54

because they had come to see the

30:56

star of Chico and the man who

30:58

he already loved. And he came back,

31:00

and the first thing he said to

31:02

me when he came off stage with,

31:05

you're the only one who knows what

31:07

I did. Why not? So I loved

31:09

him from that point and his death

31:11

was so tragic. I mean he was

31:13

obviously, you know, demons. The demons will

31:16

get you. Bud asked me to go

31:18

look at Bet. And Bet opened for

31:20

Jackie Vernon. I love Jackie Vernon. He's

31:22

wonderful. He was one of the first

31:24

guys. One of the first guys I

31:26

saw as a kid that made me

31:29

want to do. My parents took me

31:31

to see Jackie Vernon when I was

31:33

like 11 in Albuquerque at the Hilton.

31:35

Yeah, so it changed my life. Right,

31:37

true. He was so he was so

31:40

deadpan with the clicker When I was

31:42

a kid I was unwanted. Now I'm

31:44

wanted in 13 states. I mean, that's

31:46

good. One thing after another. Yeah, but

31:48

but she was a little too rocky

31:51

for his crowd. In fact, they built

31:53

her. Rocky song. Yes, that's how she

31:55

was built. built. mean?

31:57

Well, she sang

31:59

some rock and roll.

32:01

she sang some rock about

32:04

her was I loved about

32:06

musical that she, her the

32:08

whole, the taste ran the whole,

32:10

the sang rock and

32:12

roll. She sang every

32:15

period, rock and she took

32:17

stuff that was Yeah.

32:20

And she took stuff that want

32:22

to dance which was a

32:24

little like do you want to dance, which

32:26

turned it into this

32:28

erotic song of longing and of course

32:30

you know course you know that she

32:32

wasn't talking about dancing when when

32:34

she asked if would do you you want

32:36

to dance baby yeah and I and thought

32:38

this is amazing because she took

32:40

all of these things I mean

32:42

she was at the the head of

32:44

the whole nostalgia thing that took

32:47

took the Andrew sisters which were were

32:49

Wonderful, but they were considered throwaway that

32:51

part of the Manhattan transfer the Manhattan

32:53

transfer thing too? in her wake In

32:55

fact, she had a dresser In fact, she

32:57

had a woman who was the only

32:59

female who in San Francisco coquette in her

33:01

brother Yeah. And her brother group and she

33:03

kept the group, and she kept to go

33:05

see them and go went to see

33:07

them and love them to she

33:09

got loved them. to come down He

33:11

was running Erlegan to come down, who was running them

33:13

a record deal and then her

33:15

manager her manager. got Fred to see them

33:17

and put them on put them on how

33:19

you got to .A. That was how I

33:21

got to L .A. But with that was how mean,

33:23

did LA. But with Bet, I Did you sort of of

33:26

focus, like, what what was the relationship? Well, Well, she

33:28

said, said, a wrote a column about her

33:30

and she said, very funny column, you're a

33:32

funny writer. And I said, well, you're great.

33:34

You should talk more on stage. And she

33:36

said, you got any lines? on stage. And she said, you

33:38

got any lines? So all the this stuff

33:40

was local, local jokes, you

33:42

know, about Daley and stuff happening

33:44

in Chicago that week, week. it

33:46

became kind of a hallmark. started

33:49

writing for her whenever she would

33:51

tour. would go out with would go out with

33:53

her. I was a television critic

33:55

at that point and I I would call

33:57

the other TV critics who met on

33:59

on junkets. And I'd say, what's happening in

34:01

Cincinnati that we can make fun of? Yeah.

34:03

And so she'd come in armed with this

34:06

local material. And the audience would kind of

34:08

go, what the, how does she know that?

34:10

Yeah. Because this was not. We were not

34:13

living in the internet. Yeah. Exactly right. You

34:15

had to get local news guys to tell

34:17

you what was up. Exactly right. So that

34:19

became one of the things that she became

34:22

famous for and a lot of people heard

34:24

and they began calling me and asking me

34:26

to work for them so I was writing

34:29

for a whole bunch of people by the

34:31

time I came out here for the transfer.

34:33

So you like you cut your teeth on

34:35

you know doing topical humor for Beth Miller

34:38

who like to me in my mind because

34:40

I don't know the story that you just

34:42

told me was always just a firecracker of

34:45

a firecracker of jokes. But she, when she

34:47

first had, she had her, her hairdresser, Bill

34:49

Hennessy, who was Mr. Girard at the Burgdorves,

34:51

and he wrote for her. And, and then,

34:54

and then I started running for her and

34:56

she said, he, he said, you know, when

34:58

she came in, and when she started, you

35:01

know, she could, Only her hairdresser was writing

35:03

for her and now she's really famous and

35:05

everybody who writes for her is basically a

35:07

hairdresser. Yeah. Now, was that the extent of

35:10

your relationship with Bud? No, we were friendly

35:12

for years. I mean, he moved out here

35:14

and opened the place, opened the club and

35:17

I would go out there now and again

35:19

and we recorded a comedy album called Mudwoody

35:21

Flung Tonight that Bet did. in the early

35:23

80s. How's that too? I did okay. I

35:26

mean it's a funny album and Mark Shaman

35:28

wrote some songs for it with Jerry Blatt

35:30

who was another long gone unfortunately collaborator and

35:32

it did fine but you know this was

35:35

it was a kind of a bookmark. Her

35:37

husband she just got married her husband said

35:39

because no movies were happening. Yeah. So he.

35:42

He said, why don't you do what you

35:44

do, what's great do comedy

35:46

so we do the

35:48

comedy and And at at

35:51

that point the Jews

35:53

bought Disney. Michael Eisner and came in with

35:55

Jeffrey in And they brought and

35:58

they brought her in

36:00

and they put a

36:02

movie together with three

36:04

people who couldn't get

36:07

arrested Richard Rifus, Nick Nolti and Bet.

36:09

It down and out

36:11

in Beverly Hills yeah

36:14

and it was a

36:16

huge hit and suddenly

36:18

she was a movie

36:20

star again. she was a movie star.

36:23

And suddenly she movie. It's a very,

36:25

it's a, it's a, A a

36:27

funny movie. movie. So, okay, so the,

36:30

so then you get set up with

36:32

the Manhattan the Manhattan then that becomes, Yeah.

36:34

so this is like sort of

36:36

a so this is like sort of a heightened,

36:38

the word? word, cabaret show. Right, right? not the

36:40

Well, wouldn't it be it be

36:42

that be the sort of umbrella

36:44

of what that kind of, she kind

36:47

of take Cabaret to a different

36:49

place? Yeah, place? Oh, I she did.

36:51

Yeah, and that sort of established

36:53

that kind of banter songs and songs

36:55

and piano and, and what the Manant Transfer TV

36:57

show, uh, TV show, what ideally, I

36:59

think was that it was thinking, was

37:01

that it would guest and would

37:03

host and have sketches do sketches

37:05

and all that kind of kind of

37:07

stuff, no money. no money. We had they

37:09

that kind of talent? kind of

37:12

They were not. No, were not

37:14

they were they were not sketch performers. Some of

37:16

the they I mean, they some of them even,

37:18

even. They weren't even, they were

37:20

studio musicians. I mean, they

37:22

were great, but they weren't

37:24

great live performers, but they

37:26

became, in the course

37:28

of their, know, they realized that

37:30

they had to give the audience

37:32

everything, you know, they but we didn't have

37:34

any money, so we would bring

37:36

on one comic that we could

37:38

get for cheap. didn't have any Always,

37:40

and only did four episodes of

37:42

it. was we the did could get for cheap. Always,

37:44

Brenner. we were all new,

37:46

four episodes of it. It Steve

37:49

Brenner, sure. Landesburg. Oh yeah. And then

37:51

the fifth one we said we have

37:53

to have whose name whose

37:55

name was recognizable so Professor Erwin Corey.

37:57

So all Jews. Jews. All Jews.

38:00

called Valentine but that was an extra

38:02

special thing just kind of and we

38:04

and and they said how about another

38:06

music acts and yeah we didn't have

38:08

any money so we got Bob Marley

38:10

and the whalers wow I know they

38:12

floated into the studio I bet they

38:14

did that must have been like scared

38:16

the shit out of the network sensor

38:18

I mean it must have been amazing

38:20

though it was because they'd never been

38:22

on television yeah The broadness of it

38:24

must have been just stunning. Especially in

38:26

contrast to the transfer, but I mean

38:28

it gives you some idea of what

38:30

they had the same kind of a

38:32

collecticism that Bet has. Yeah. They did

38:34

music and in fact if you look

38:36

at the transfer catalog, I defy you

38:38

to find any group that's done. the

38:40

diversity of music that they well they

38:42

had a Brazilian album they had a

38:44

vocalese album they had well that was

38:46

it like it's interpretive i mean they

38:48

had a set way of approaching music

38:50

right so they could do anything that

38:52

is right it well it's for part

38:54

harmony of course the foundation but they

38:56

were unafraid they would they they had

38:58

started as a kind of nostalgia act

39:00

and then they became a jazz act

39:02

And then they had a huge hit

39:04

with a cover of Saint- Saint- Saint-Amour,

39:06

which was a big song in the

39:08

50s, that made them stars all over

39:10

the world. So when you came out

39:12

here with them, that began your relationship

39:14

with the big-time show business? Yes, as

39:16

it were. Because you produced a show?

39:18

Well, no, I wrote it. I just

39:20

wrote it with a producer. Joel Silver

39:22

was one of the writers on this.

39:24

Believe it or not. Yeah, yeah. And

39:26

then I was out here, you know,

39:28

I'd always said if I had an

39:30

agent and a job I would come

39:32

out here and I had both so

39:34

I came out and I started writing

39:36

variety television. There was of course the

39:38

last gasp of variety television because cable

39:40

came in. Is that what did it?

39:42

Yeah, because like I think that there's

39:44

been some weird nostalgic attempts at variety

39:46

and I think it's going to happen

39:48

again. I think my friend Nate Vargaci

39:50

is doing a Christmas special. Yeah,

39:52

well there are the

39:54

the that people can

39:56

do. But it

39:58

was really a set

40:00

thing. mean, a set thing.

40:02

I We used to

40:04

watch Flip Wilson.

40:06

I know. used to things

40:08

happened. One was

40:10

that cable came in.

40:12

Yeah. And you cable

40:15

you wanted to see a performer,

40:17

you could see a performer, you

40:19

wanted to see Madonna, she was

40:21

on 24 -7. to see Madonna, she was on

40:23

24-7. Right. In addition to that

40:25

SNL came on on. Right. And what they

40:27

they could get away with on

40:29

Saturday nights at nights at 1130, 1030 Central.

40:31

was so much more than

40:33

you could do in any it

40:36

between 8 and 11 Well that

40:38

was almost almost blew up the

40:40

up the form exactly right because everything suddenly seemed square right

40:42

the That was considered hip. I

40:44

mean hip I the the brunette sketches you know

40:46

that the hip ones and all

40:48

of that stuff stuff yeah but there was

40:50

was an attempt. in of in

40:52

the shade the shade by that because it

40:54

that because it was audacious, a but

40:56

it was a pro it was what

40:58

it was is that you know

41:00

Whatever happened in the was was

41:02

sort of appropriated by by kind of business

41:05

by version of of doing their version

41:07

of it or Tony Orlando or flip Wilson even. Because

41:09

Carol Burnett because Carol Burnett was kind

41:11

of old they're still making references

41:13

like like laughing. Well Smothers Brothers at the top

41:15

of the of the the late the late 60s

41:17

right? Right now we're already like a

41:19

little further into it and into

41:21

even the hip hip of

41:23

what the the new what the kids want is

41:25

dead. That's right. And then Saturday Night

41:27

Live comes. comes. So what are the, so

41:30

where do you do you go

41:32

from Manhattan? What do you think? Well,

41:34

shows, the Variety TV series series

41:36

and shows got replaced by

41:38

shows, shows, Which variety Which variety

41:41

shows are you right for? Donna and

41:43

Marie. How is How was that? I used to

41:45

say it to say it was like

41:47

falling into a vat of of but

41:50

we don't use that term anymore. Everybody

41:52

was just so nice. just nice.

41:54

were just nice, they were nice

41:56

and they were Were they all

41:59

were they all Mormons? where they were surrounded

42:01

by Jews. I mean, you know, variety of

42:03

television was engineered by Jews. Yeah. And so

42:05

they had to put up with us, you

42:07

know, and they, they remember them being cute

42:09

and able to do comedy, no? Yeah. Oh

42:11

yeah, they were adorable. The two of them

42:13

were great. And they had timing and all

42:15

of that kind of stuff. But I mean,

42:17

they were, they were. heavily, the parameters were

42:20

very narrow because they were Mormons and Marie

42:22

was a kid, she was under age when

42:24

we started. And so there were things that

42:26

they just couldn't refer to or say or

42:28

do more than any other show. But I

42:30

also wrote the Brady Bunch Variety Hour. That

42:32

seems wild. That was incredible. That was... As

42:34

time goes on, it turns out that Brady

42:36

Bunch was kind of a pretty wild bunch

42:39

of people. Yeah, it's, it's layers, the onion

42:41

layers are being peeled back. Yeah, over time.

42:43

Yeah. I mean, I, when I go on

42:45

podcast, they ask me about, they could, they're

42:47

all on YouTube, the Brady Bunchwrech. And they

42:49

say, and my other, the Star Wars holiday

42:51

special, I wrote that in, and the Paul,

42:53

the Halloween, and they say. How did these

42:55

happen? Yeah. Kids asked me these things and

42:58

so I've written a book, it's called, about

43:00

how they, I wrote the worst TV shows

43:02

in history, it's called, it seemed like a

43:04

bad idea at the time. It did. It

43:06

is on pre-order at Amazon dropping March 4th,

43:08

there you go. So I had to plug

43:10

it in, but the Brady Bunch variety hour

43:12

gets, gets unbelievably discerning, discerning dissection in that

43:14

book. Yeah. But they were, I think, were

43:17

they considered the worst TV shows, Oh, there

43:19

are, it's on lists. Oh, yeah. There is,

43:21

somebody put down the list. Oh, yeah. Those

43:23

are all on, everybody's top 10 of the

43:25

worst. Those three show up. But when you

43:27

go into it, you go in in earnest,

43:29

don't you? Oh, absolutely. You know, we didn't

43:31

know. It was Fred Silverman's idea and I

43:33

believe he wanted the Partridge family who were

43:36

on their show an actual performing family. Weren't

43:38

they about done by then? They were both

43:40

kind of done because they were they were

43:42

they shared an hour on Friday night together

43:44

and Shirley Jones did didn't want

43:46

to do a variety

43:48

series and And David Cassidy,

43:50

would who out yeah I didn't want

43:52

didn't want to do

43:55

one. And so turned the

43:57

to the Brady Bunch,

43:59

because the Brady kids

44:01

had an act which

44:03

they took around to

44:05

state fairs and things

44:07

like that. Oh, they

44:09

did? they did They did did

44:11

well enough. A singing

44:14

act? Yeah, singing. Yeah, I mean, they

44:16

weren't great. mean, they weren't

44:18

great, but... But yeah, but

44:20

were the Brady Bunch.

44:22

Yeah, but to say he

44:24

got Florence to say

44:26

yes, Florence Henderson, was raising

44:28

mother wanted, and she wanted to children

44:30

and she in to stay at home

44:33

in also a But she was also She

44:35

was a real talent. was a real talent, a

44:37

Broadway Broadway talent Vega a Vegas star

44:39

and she could really sing and dance

44:41

and do do. sketches. Yeah. Robert Reed, dad, the a

44:43

serious was a serious actor who I

44:45

taken the show think the show because getting the

44:48

was not getting the career he

44:50

wanted. was Yeah. And this be a be

44:52

a nice Sure. And I Sure. And I

44:54

don't think any of them thought the

44:56

show would last as long as

44:58

it did did initially or that it would it would

45:00

on into Yeah. And I

45:02

mean, it's mean, it's had seven or

45:05

seven different iterations already. It's crazy.

45:07

then the stage show that

45:09

happened in Chicago. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. And then

45:11

the two And then the two

45:13

movies. parody the straight scripts. I know. they just

45:15

played them. Yeah. Exactly. The movies were were almost

45:18

like that. There were parody

45:20

movies, but they were kind of

45:22

written straight, but with a were

45:24

kind was Alice's story? She with

45:26

pretty good joke And B D. Davis

45:28

she was a was. She had been,

45:30

had a show show with Robert

45:32

Cummings who is a

45:34

big movie star big That

45:36

Bob called Love That Bob. played she played

45:39

his sidekick who was

45:41

man who was and and wacky. she

45:43

had a a history. and

45:45

when Karabranet did upon a mattress a

45:47

Broadway when she left, Anne B

45:49

took over. and that makes sense. Oh,

45:51

I mean, she makes do it all.

45:53

she was, she could do it then she became

45:55

Alice she became Alice the maid. Did there was

45:57

kind of like she wasted her

45:59

talent? some kind of a harness. She

46:01

could come and she could do one

46:03

line, you know, pop her eyes and

46:05

go out. But she was great fun.

46:08

But how, what about Paulin? Paul was...

46:10

Out of the Brooks told me a

46:12

story about Paulin that was just too

46:14

funny. It was like his first moment.

46:16

and you know in show business and

46:18

he was on the set at NBC

46:20

or CBS probably and he ran into

46:22

Paulin he was a kid and Paulin

46:24

is like don't you just want to

46:26

like lay in bed and eat yourself

46:28

to death someday like just sort of

46:30

like this very dark oh yeah he

46:33

was like he was extremely dark he

46:35

was as that he was very charming

46:37

on one drink yeah and then on

46:39

two drinks he was the Nazi high

46:41

command Oh yeah, you mockin' low life,

46:43

cuz magga-cant-tun. You know, and of course

46:45

I was gay and so he was,

46:47

so we bonded over that, I was

46:49

the gay one he could come to.

46:51

Yeah. With things, like when a kiss

46:53

was on the holidays, but the Halloween

46:56

special, and he came to the rehearsal,

46:58

and Gene Simmons was, you know, in

47:00

makeup and came over and went up

47:02

to him and sucked his tongue out

47:04

and pulled him. I want to meet

47:06

him. So I said to Gene Paul

47:08

would like to meet you in his

47:10

dressing room and Gene said, it was

47:12

the tongue, wasn't it? Yeah, he said,

47:14

yeah, get some all the time. Yeah,

47:16

well Gene's funny. Oh, he's great. Yeah,

47:18

yeah. So wait, then you worked with,

47:21

who else? Lily Tomlin as well? I

47:23

worked with Lily, I worked with Flip,

47:25

George Carlin. When you say that, this

47:27

is not for the Oscars, these are

47:29

for when they're putting shows together. They're

47:31

TV shows and they're live acts. So

47:33

you would get called and say, like,

47:35

I need punch up. Exactly. Well, yeah.

47:37

punch up and some of them would

47:39

like you know Joan Rivers would say

47:41

I need 10 minutes on breast cancer

47:43

or whatever she didn't do that yeah

47:46

I mean I need 10 minutes on

47:48

this and I pay seven bucks a

47:50

joke yeah she paid more than that

47:52

but I do have a check from

47:54

her for seven dollars So that was

47:56

sort of a course years

47:58

ago of a thing. that

48:00

was sort of

48:02

a thing so like

48:04

the know just from

48:07

of the experience of putting together

48:09

these. with different these shows with

48:11

different talents a being a you were

48:13

sort of able of able to of

48:15

the voice of people. that's what what

48:17

you have to do. It's

48:19

due diligence. mean, you really have

48:21

to, I have to people, I mean, screenwriters

48:23

who come up with the characters

48:26

and write in those voices. especially when

48:28

when they know, when they you know,

48:30

when they find find individual voices

48:32

for characters, that's a great

48:34

skill. skill. I I was handed these

48:36

people I I always say that

48:38

it's kind of like Bob Mackey, you

48:41

know, would not put not put same the

48:43

same dress he would put Lizzo. mean, I

48:45

mean, he's a two different body type.

48:47

type. And And although he has a certain

48:49

style, he's he's obviously not gonna give

48:51

them the same kind of thing. of thing. So,

48:53

uh, that was what it was what it

48:55

was, mean, you have to, I used

48:57

to say you know, Shakespeare wrote, the wrote the

48:59

and Titus Andronicus. Sure. But never, you know, they say what you're

49:02

well, you're comparing yourself to Shakespeare,

49:04

And I would say he never had

49:06

to do do a two-spot for Donnie and Marie. As we

49:08

don't, as far as we know. as we know.

49:10

As far as we know, as we

49:12

know. Yeah. But I you write for somebody

49:14

that does long form stuff does long-form

49:16

with Lily Tomlin or something. or

49:18

Lily, it was all to character. it

49:20

was all to character. Okay. a guy named

49:22

Rod Warren Warren who is no no longer with

49:24

us, who used to write a lot

49:27

of of Lily's observational observational stuff, like I went to

49:29

like I went to the store and

49:31

I bought a bought a wastebasket. they put it

49:33

in the paper bag and I took

49:35

it home and took the paper bag

49:37

out and put it in the wastebasket,

49:39

the paper bag is the classic. it in the wastebasket.

49:41

way Lily delivers, is a you think it's

49:43

gonna go someplace else. So Lily as

49:46

Lily at that time, even when she

49:48

wasn't doing characters You think it's a character. go

49:50

That was her stage character and then

49:52

she would branch off into the that time,

49:54

even when she wasn't Jane Wagner,

49:56

her wife, her took

49:58

over over that and... Also Jane wrote a

50:01

bunch of the characters and I didn't create

50:03

any characters but I wrote for Ernestine and

50:05

I wrote for either fan and you just

50:07

get a call when they're doing a TV

50:09

show? Could you come in and can you

50:11

come in? And we did a lot of

50:13

benefits I have to say. Ernestine was like

50:16

the Queen of Benefits. Yeah. Especially like AIDS

50:18

benefits, political fundraisers. Ernestine was the operator? The

50:20

telephone operate. One ring, you didn't. Yeah. Yeah.

50:22

You know we laugh about does that make

50:24

any sense. Does that make any sense? the

50:26

actual rotary dial with her finger and it

50:28

was already a kind of nostalgia character right

50:31

yeah yeah there was something that's interesting and

50:33

of course the phone company at the time

50:35

was omnipotent yeah and now that they broke

50:37

them all up and and who uses them

50:39

now I don't even have a landline I

50:41

remember it was a big deal not to

50:43

have a landline even I just had a

50:45

landline because it was old guy stuff you're

50:48

like well you got to have a landline

50:50

line What if you need to call the

50:52

police? I know, exactly. And now it's all...

50:54

Well, I kept the landline because in the

50:56

earthquake, everything, the power went, but the landlines,

50:58

the work. Some how state. So I thought

51:00

that was, and that was 19, what, the

51:03

Northridge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was in town

51:05

that night. I was at the Sunset Tower

51:07

Hotel for some reason when that happened. It's

51:09

kind of crazy. It was a very funny

51:11

moment though. Because I was there for a

51:13

junket for something, Comedy Central something. So I'm

51:15

in the hotel, the earthquake happens in the

51:18

middle of the night. And I met some

51:20

guy, I met the guy, earlier that night,

51:22

a lot of show business was staying there.

51:24

I met the guy who was one of

51:26

the co-creators of Beavis and Butthead. Oh wow.

51:28

And we're all standing outside, you know, the

51:30

earthquake happened, you're watching power stations blow up

51:33

in the... And we're all standing around a

51:35

car, Alexis, because we could get the radio

51:37

on it, it was the only way we

51:39

could get news. And I'm just standing there

51:41

with this guy John, I think his name

51:43

was, who was the creator of Beavis and

51:45

Buddy, he's looking out over the earthquake damage

51:48

horizon, he goes, I can't help but think

51:50

this is somehow my fault. Because that was

51:52

my judge. who wrote wrote but

51:54

but he must have

51:56

produced it. it. Yeah. So you

51:58

write write for, like, well, Billy's

52:00

be easy, right? Oh, Billy was,

52:03

we did all all these

52:05

Oscar shows. that's when he started

52:07

the Oscar he started the Oscar

52:09

stuff? first Oscar show

52:11

had no show had no and

52:13

it was it was the

52:15

Snow White. White. Rob Loeb show and that

52:17

was a gun that was and car ballon

52:20

car a very fun one was that that?

52:22

That was saying that was was my

52:24

first one as an actual writer

52:26

and I was the writer was

52:28

writer brought in in who wrote

52:30

the Tony who wrote the Tony shows but and then

52:32

of course course, it's a huge

52:34

task for one person, but there

52:36

was no host. so because they had they

52:38

had remember how that worked it was that

52:40

worked. a was just of God thing?

52:42

It was. stars walking yeah a bunch bunch well

52:44

there was an opening number. number And

52:46

then Lily came out and came

52:48

out. I think, and then

52:51

Tom it to commercial, I think,

52:53

and then Tom the came out and

52:55

welcomed the people the first category. first

52:57

category. you do you do that, just

52:59

tell me a little bit about

53:01

when it says, it says, like, a you were

53:03

for hire. for hire. Basically. Why

53:06

yes and so when somebody like somebody some of of

53:08

your credits they say say like Roseanne yeah

53:10

so you So you would write for

53:12

Rosanne when she was less crazy.

53:14

we did we did her stand up

53:16

act couple of special a couple of

53:18

specials. You were there with her

53:20

from the beginning? no No, close

53:22

to her Her husband was writing

53:24

for her a lot a then,

53:26

the first husband husband yeah who she came

53:29

came with. yeah and then and we met

53:31

early on I wrote some stuff then

53:33

and then. then because you could understand

53:35

the delivery. the delivery system. Exactly course she

53:37

became a big star she became a series. off

53:39

the And Yeah. And other people, people, there were

53:41

a lot of people writing the show

53:43

and they were involved with her. And

53:45

then that marriage broke up and she

53:47

married Tom she married it went on. It

53:50

went on. It got crazier and crazier.

53:52

or crazy. Right. would still do, do, she would do

53:54

would do lots, again, She benefits. to do. do

53:56

there was a list of people people like

53:58

I don't know who was. be on it

54:00

where you might just get a call

54:02

like you got anything on this can

54:04

you give me five minutes on this

54:06

and right and you were the guy

54:08

I was I was not the only

54:10

guy but I was a guy yeah

54:12

and who were some of the people

54:14

that leaned on you the most for

54:17

jokes wow what a good question I'm

54:19

trying to remember because it hasn't happened

54:21

in so long Robin Robin Williams we

54:23

used to sit down in a room

54:25

and just come up with stuff just

54:27

when he was doing comedy show and

54:29

whoop yeah And Bill and Beth, and

54:31

they were in the movie that was,

54:33

Harvey Weinstein made a movie about me

54:35

20 years ago, never laid a hand

54:37

on me. Oh, I'm sorry. Why not

54:39

me? But it's called Get Bruce. You

54:41

can Netflix and chill. And they're the

54:43

four principles. But Nathan Lane, later on,

54:45

Shirley McLean. Paul Reiser a few times.

54:47

What was Reiser looking for? Because he's

54:49

kind of long form. He, uh, just

54:51

joke. Actually, he hosted the Emmys one

54:53

year and I came in and did

54:55

that with him. And I think he

54:57

may have done the Golden Globes. I

54:59

can't remember. What a treat, man. Because

55:01

as a stand-up, I don't, like, you

55:03

know, occasionally people, friends will give me

55:05

a tag. Yeah. But, you know, the

55:07

one time that I actually did a

55:09

show where I actually did a show

55:11

where I had. joke writers for deliver

55:13

jokes it was kind of it's kind

55:15

of encouraging to know like well I

55:17

can I know how to deliver a

55:20

joke and I didn't have to sweat

55:22

over this one right you just do

55:24

it it must be nice I think

55:26

a lot of people have people helping

55:28

them. What happens generally is they start

55:30

out, nobody's interested in them, and they

55:32

write all their own material. And then

55:34

they happen. And once they happen, they

55:36

get involved in what Johnny Mitchell called

55:38

the star-making machinery. And also it took

55:40

them a decade to write that material.

55:42

And to generate new stuff, they don't

55:44

have the time. or the inclination really

55:46

to try to, and that's when they

55:48

bring in collaborators. Right. And, you know,

55:50

it becomes a thing. It goes on

55:52

for, even Rodney, I wrote for Rodney.

55:54

Everyone wrote for Rodney. Yeah, I know,

55:56

exactly. That's the thing. That's one reason

55:58

why he had a comedy club. Yeah,

56:00

people like yeah, there were guys who

56:02

like I remember when I was a

56:04

doorman at the comedy store Jimmy Walker

56:06

had a thing on the bulletin board.

56:08

I'll pay you $50. Wow, right, like

56:10

you just give him jokes. Yep. I

56:12

think yeah, I mean, there used to

56:14

be people, they'd solicit for jokes for

56:16

the tonight show like from you could

56:18

send in jokes. You could send in

56:20

jokes. Exactly. And they just pay you.

56:23

That's true. And they just pay you.

56:25

Good bracket. for every monitor. I didn't

56:27

do 18. I think the monologue was

56:29

that long, but longer than you remember.

56:31

Yeah, exactly. They were all longer than

56:33

you remember. I watched the sort of

56:35

DVDs of Dick Cavite shows. I'm like,

56:37

wow, this is a slug. Yeah, as

56:39

brilliant as that guy was, you know,

56:41

he wasn't playing to the audience. No,

56:43

not at all. A lot of them

56:45

weren't. They were playing to each other.

56:47

It was kind of interesting. Yeah, the

56:49

amount of dead air. on shows that

56:51

we've, you know, kind of understand his

56:53

mythic. Right. I mean, you watch some

56:55

Carson's, you're like, oh my God, when's

56:57

this going to pick up? I know,

56:59

but he always, he had savers. Yeah.

57:01

You know, he always had savers and

57:03

he had ed going, you are correct,

57:05

sir. Yeah. And when all else failed,

57:07

he could do a, you know, a

57:09

gay joke about Doc, was wearing, right?

57:11

Yeah. Yeah, what year? What year? Well,

57:13

it was later. I mean, it was...

57:15

Oh, what do you got for me?

57:17

It was after he was a movie

57:19

star. Yeah, yeah. I forget, you know,

57:21

it was in the 80s. Before he

57:23

was on medicine? I think he was

57:26

always on medicine. Yeah, but toward the

57:28

end, I mean, we did a... I

57:30

think the last thing I did with

57:32

him was one of the American comedy

57:34

awards. I wrote all of those for

57:36

George Slaughter and other guys. And we,

57:38

he came in because he was getting

57:40

an award. Yeah. He came in and

57:42

George wanted to show him the clip

57:44

he was going to do and all

57:46

of that. Yeah. So George had an

57:48

office on. Beverly Boulevard and had a

57:50

parking lot in the back with a

57:52

gate and you had to ring the

57:54

bell at the gate and rang the

57:56

bell and George's assistant quote said, I

57:58

think this is Rodney because it's in

58:00

like an old Cadillac. And so. And

58:02

we watched on the video. The video.

58:04

I mean, the ring phone, you know,

58:06

the back door. And he pulled up

58:08

and he parked and he got out

58:10

of the car and he was wearing

58:12

a Beverly Hilton Hotel bathrobe. Yeah, yeah.

58:14

Probably carrying his own drink. Shower slippers

58:16

and carrying a drink. And came in

58:18

and sat with the bathroom that would

58:20

like fall open at the desk and

58:22

riding guard. That's a killer. That's a

58:24

beauty. Yeah, I tell you I like

58:26

that one. I like that one. But

58:29

the thing I loved about Rodney is

58:31

my favorite thing about comedians is My

58:33

biggest last for me was not the

58:35

jokes, it was just the attitude. Yeah.

58:37

You know, he would come on, he

58:39

would say, I'm all right now, but

58:41

yes, I was in bad shape. Yeah,

58:43

yeah, right, right, right away, it was

58:45

like, whatever else was in bad shape.

58:47

My wife was fat. Oh, she's fat.

58:49

Yeah, yeah, okay. What's coming next? He

58:51

was like, I was already laughing. I

58:53

just think, I, I mean, everyone knows

58:55

Rodney, but as Rodney, but as a

58:57

comic, He's just, I don't think he

58:59

gets put up there as one of

59:01

the best enough. Because I really think

59:03

he was one of the best. He

59:05

was like the whole package. And there

59:07

were moments, some of the greatest moments

59:09

watching him on Carson is when he

59:11

runs out of jokes. And you realize

59:13

he's incapable of talking. That's right. He's

59:15

not Rickles. No. You know, he's not

59:17

gonna. Like, you know, once he's out,

59:19

he's like, he's not gonna, he can't

59:21

talk because he's so fucking depressed. Exactly,

59:23

you don't want to know. Yeah, yeah,

59:25

yeah. It was unbelievable. And yeah, well,

59:27

Rickles on the other side of that,

59:29

half the time, Rickles wasn't funny. It

59:32

was just a momentum. Yeah, right, exactly.

59:34

You get caught up in it. Did

59:36

you get caught up in it. Did

59:38

you work with Carson at all? Did

59:40

you work with Carson at all? Did

59:42

you work with Carson at all? Did

59:44

you work with Carson at all? Did

59:46

you work with Carson at all? At

59:48

the very beginning I sold him a

59:50

couple of jokes and then... Well when

59:52

he moved out here you mean? Yeah.

59:54

when you first moved out here. Yeah,

59:56

yeah, yeah. So how does the relationship

59:58

with the Oscars start? Alan Carr, well,

1:00:00

I bet had been on as a

1:00:02

presenter and the other people I worked

1:00:04

with and I'd written some stuff for

1:00:06

them under the table. But then Alan

1:00:08

asked me to write the show. So

1:00:10

I came on in 89 and I

1:00:12

wrote that show. which became legendary because

1:00:14

of the Roblo Snow White dance number

1:00:16

at the time. I don't remember it.

1:00:18

What happened? Well, he opened the show

1:00:20

with a 20-minute number set at the

1:00:22

Coconut Grove with all old Hollywood stars

1:00:24

around and Snow White was visiting Hollywood.

1:00:26

He imported a number from San Francisco

1:00:28

from a show called Beach Blank and

1:00:30

Babylon. Yeah, my, my, uh, an ex

1:00:32

of mine used to work at Beach

1:00:35

Blank. With the hats. The hats. And

1:00:37

so it was kind of a, seemed

1:00:39

like a bad idea. Like a bad

1:00:41

idea. the time, but that didn't stop

1:00:43

Alan. And the rest of the show

1:00:45

was kind of interesting, but that, it

1:00:47

was in the great pantheon of bad

1:00:49

Oscar numbers, you know, it ranked high.

1:00:51

But I mean, there were other ridiculous.

1:00:53

The year before Terry Gar was on

1:00:55

an airplane wing flying down to Rio,

1:00:57

it was really strange. But what cemented

1:00:59

its relation, it's a notoriety, was two

1:01:01

weeks after the show. Oh, Disney sued

1:01:03

for the use of Snow White, which

1:01:05

was, of course, they had no leg

1:01:07

to stand up at the academy, caved

1:01:09

and said, okay, we'll cut it out

1:01:11

of the archive. So that was to

1:01:13

make one guy at Disney happy. Yeah.

1:01:15

But two weeks after that the Roblo

1:01:17

sex tape surfers, oh right Where he

1:01:19

had he and a friend were to

1:01:21

convince the convention the dukakis convention Yeah,

1:01:23

right and the video and of course

1:01:25

you have to remember that this was

1:01:27

back in the day when there were

1:01:29

You know VHS yeah, and there was

1:01:31

no internet and nobody was sharing anything

1:01:33

so it became a highly prized thing

1:01:35

and people would have parties all over

1:01:38

town get looking at bootleg things and

1:01:40

he has completely owned it in the

1:01:42

in the time since He said I

1:01:44

said I was

1:01:46

the poster child for

1:01:48

bad behavior. Yeah,

1:01:50

and he he it

1:01:52

to this day day.

1:01:54

but it the the

1:01:56

show's reputation as being

1:01:58

a classic That and the

1:02:00

the fact that

1:02:02

a lot of the

1:02:04

people the people put

1:02:06

on the show because

1:02:08

the on the didn't

1:02:10

want them were big

1:02:12

stars and they

1:02:14

wrote a letter and they

1:02:16

wrote a letter after the... after Disney,

1:02:18

they wrote letter saying, well, Well,

1:02:20

this is that

1:02:22

we have to have

1:02:24

a control meeting about

1:02:26

this can't happen again. Yeah,

1:02:28

so they brought in in Gil to

1:02:30

to produce it and he wound up

1:02:32

producing the next the shows, I think.

1:02:34

And when you worked for him? worked

1:02:37

he brought in Billy to host it.

1:02:39

Billy had hosted the hosted four Grammy with

1:02:41

him before? work with him before. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, in

1:02:43

in terms of writing it, do

1:02:45

you put a a, you together? together? Yeah, well

1:02:47

what happened the happened? The producer puts

1:02:49

the staff together, but but when

1:02:51

there's a host, there are kind of

1:02:53

two of two staffs The host generally has

1:02:55

people who work with them. they If they

1:02:57

are doing a show talk show, as

1:02:59

many of them are, they bring their

1:03:02

entire talk show staff that puts a and of

1:03:04

course, that puts a big dent in

1:03:06

the budget, so they can't hire too

1:03:08

many other people to write the rest

1:03:10

of the show. Because I've known guys

1:03:12

guys who peers, my peers who pulled in to

1:03:14

write for the week or two week or two

1:03:17

That's because because get dissatisfied

1:03:19

with what the writers for the rather the

1:03:21

hostess has written. So they bring in comics.

1:03:23

and bring in yeah they So they're bringing people. Yes, I

1:03:25

I in. My last my last official was 10

1:03:27

years ago. years ago, host was the

1:03:29

host? Get involved, Of the legendary Anne Hathaway James Franco

1:03:32

show. That turned out to be a disaster. turned out

1:03:34

to be a disaster, was, was turned

1:03:36

a bigger disaster, but I didn't

1:03:38

write about it in this book

1:03:40

because maybe the the next book. Why? Because

1:03:42

Because nobody asked me about it. it.

1:03:45

It hasn't shown up on YouTube

1:03:47

and and had the of life. life. mean,

1:03:49

it seemed like. it know, I

1:03:51

felt bad for her I I love

1:03:53

her. Yeah, she's wonderful I and it

1:03:55

just seemed like he wasn't willing He

1:03:58

And it just seemed like he wasn't willing, he precision game. and

1:04:00

he wasn't playing along with her and

1:04:02

he's apologized to me a million times

1:04:04

since he said he went He was

1:04:06

nominated that year for a movie where

1:04:08

he noises his arm off and he

1:04:10

knew he was going to lose to

1:04:12

Colin Firth for playing the stuttering king

1:04:14

of George. And he said, I decided

1:04:16

do I want to sit in the

1:04:18

audience and wait to lose or do

1:04:20

I want to do something else? And

1:04:22

when they came and they said you

1:04:24

want to co-hosted, I said yes I'll

1:04:26

do it. And he said it was

1:04:28

a mistake and he didn't really know

1:04:30

how to do that. It was not

1:04:33

in his comfort zone. He brought in

1:04:35

some writers who had no idea. what

1:04:37

to do with it and uh... yeah

1:04:39

there are young people work for jut

1:04:41

apatow i you know yeah it's just

1:04:43

yet but it was a bad idea

1:04:45

from the beginning i mean that there

1:04:47

was no chemistry between those two i

1:04:49

mean it was it was a blatant

1:04:51

attempt to youth the show up what's

1:04:53

like me because she's so amazing like

1:04:55

it could have you know if you

1:04:57

would have gotten somebody that had chops

1:04:59

it would have been great yeah But

1:05:01

the number of people who are offered

1:05:03

the show and turn it down is

1:05:05

legion. To host it. Yeah, if you're

1:05:07

famous enough and rich enough. You don't

1:05:09

need to host that show. You only

1:05:11

can get in your own way. If

1:05:13

you do well, they'll go. Nice job.

1:05:16

If you mess up, the stink will

1:05:18

sit on you forever. That's interesting, isn't

1:05:20

it? So you have to have, be

1:05:22

built of really like Letterman, built of

1:05:24

really strong stuff. Yeah, I mean, I

1:05:26

just, like I grew to appreciate the

1:05:28

fact that, you know, if we're going

1:05:30

to honor show business, then get the

1:05:32

guys that love it. Yeah, for what

1:05:34

it's like, I mean, that's why Billy

1:05:36

was good. Yeah, exactly. I think you're

1:05:38

absolutely right. Even Steve Martin, who is

1:05:40

an oddball, is a movie star, but

1:05:42

he he rep, he loves what he

1:05:44

does. He loves the community. Yeah. And

1:05:46

he can comment on it. He's not

1:05:48

a mean-spirited comic coming on and making

1:05:50

jokes. Right. The sense of... of

1:05:52

kind of community dissipated

1:05:54

with the Oscars. know,

1:05:56

like there was

1:05:59

a time where, you

1:06:01

know, when a still

1:06:03

had you you know,

1:06:05

Nicholson sitting there

1:06:07

or even older guys,

1:06:09

know, with there, or

1:06:11

or whoever, were around,

1:06:13

Jimmy kind of felt there was

1:06:15

a history to the thing and

1:06:17

that there was a community to

1:06:19

the thing. And now like, I

1:06:21

don't even know a the fuck's there,

1:06:23

but to the started happening years ago

1:06:25

a community to the began taking over and

1:06:27

the movies that were nominated there, but

1:06:29

necessarily popular there were movies to people

1:06:31

who make movies. light. And that still

1:06:33

holds true, but now since holds true,

1:06:35

but now, since the

1:06:38

Academy has widened the voting

1:06:40

pool of included lots of

1:06:42

diverse people who were

1:06:44

never involved not Hollywood-centric people. You people.

1:06:47

mean, you would never have mean, you

1:06:49

would never have gotten

1:06:51

movies like and everything Everywhere all over

1:06:53

Your face. 12 years of Years Moonlight,

1:06:55

you You never gotten those

1:06:58

movies. movies. nominated less win because

1:07:00

the Academy Voting Body was not body was

1:07:02

not interested in that kind of

1:07:04

picture. I guess I guess that guess

1:07:06

that's I guess edged sword in that

1:07:08

that kind of evolution is

1:07:10

necessary. kind of evolution is is necessary

1:07:13

and is movies are great movies,

1:07:15

but I guess it speaks

1:07:17

more to the diminishing it speaks of

1:07:19

the Hollywood community. Exactly. you

1:07:21

know, what are you going to

1:07:23

do? you know what are you all know

1:07:25

each other all know each other and and and

1:07:27

Sometimes, I mean they,

1:07:29

they I don't know, the lady don't

1:07:31

know, for playing the grandmother in

1:07:33

who won for playing

1:07:35

the she's not seen it around town I

1:07:37

don't think, she's not

1:07:39

know, she's not part with Joan

1:07:41

Collins. set. not part of

1:07:43

over. I Hollywood set. Well, that's over. I

1:07:46

guess it's not bad that it's over,

1:07:48

but I guess because of an age an

1:07:50

age where some some part of me that

1:07:52

misses that, but I'm also, I am

1:07:54

impressed when they award, when they award, you know. off

1:07:56

to the side movies that are truly

1:07:58

amazing. Yeah. And I I think the, the death of

1:08:00

the Howie Wood picture is not horrible

1:08:03

necessarily right? Well but it's it's alive

1:08:05

and well I mean last year Barbenheimer

1:08:07

yes you know with gigantic and this

1:08:09

year they're gonna have wicked and Gladiator

1:08:12

and out of it else you know

1:08:14

sure and then people they'll complain. Yeah

1:08:16

these popular movies that also the movie

1:08:19

makers are appreciated and would make themselves

1:08:21

and they do come along. But it

1:08:23

also speaks to the community of voters.

1:08:25

Thank God they expanded it because it

1:08:28

was like a bunch of old Jews

1:08:30

and a lot of out-of-work people. Yes

1:08:32

that's true. And they would just vote

1:08:35

on familiarity like oh I know that

1:08:37

person. Yeah I didn't see the thing

1:08:39

but I like her. Yeah that's it.

1:08:41

Right. So when did... Like, in looking

1:08:44

back at the Oscars, who was your

1:08:46

favorite host when you were working there?

1:08:48

But it's very impolitic to say. I

1:08:50

mean, I got the biggest take out

1:08:53

of Steve because, Steve Martin, because he's

1:08:55

so strange. I mean, I did four

1:08:57

shows with Whoopi, who's the greatest, and

1:09:00

we had fun. I did like eight

1:09:02

shows with Billy, who's phenomenal. Yeah. I

1:09:04

love them all, so it's hard to

1:09:06

pick out of three. Sure. Did you

1:09:09

work on comic relief with them? Yes.

1:09:11

And Robin was, he was something. Oh,

1:09:13

Robin was spectacular. You know, I, you

1:09:16

know, oddly, I feel like Kimmel did

1:09:18

an okay job. I thought he did

1:09:20

grab that funny, grew into it. I

1:09:22

thought, I mean, he was, he was

1:09:25

at ease after the first one and,

1:09:27

and he's not mean spirited. No. I

1:09:29

mean, I just think he takes it

1:09:31

to the edge, but that's his stick

1:09:34

and they know it and they, no

1:09:36

one feels attacked. Part of the reason

1:09:38

is because they've all been on his

1:09:41

show. Sure, that's great. Yeah, but also

1:09:43

it's very funny that you know, you

1:09:45

got to know, it's good to know

1:09:47

the people. Yeah, exactly. When did you

1:09:50

become like active in terms of gay

1:09:52

activism? Because it seems like you were

1:09:54

never, you know, not out. You know,

1:09:57

I was, I was not a professional

1:09:59

homosexual. homosexual professional. Yeah. And, uh, but

1:10:01

as as things, AIDS probably was

1:10:03

AIDS it, I was what

1:10:06

did it. I I

1:10:08

was interested, I was always kind of

1:10:10

involved, it's but a know it's a

1:10:12

movement that used to eat its young.

1:10:14

You know, know, I mean they would out

1:10:17

anybody because, because they were, how dare dare you

1:10:19

not be out. And, and I always thought, always

1:10:21

thought who needs some miserable you know, who

1:10:23

you know, who didn't want to come

1:10:25

out, let them come out when

1:10:27

they're ready to come out. ready to come out.

1:10:29

Yeah. What AIDS did did was fight

1:10:32

for survival. It was a

1:10:34

fight for survival, wasn't the government wasn't

1:10:36

giving any money, and you show raise can

1:10:38

raise money by doing a show,

1:10:40

so we did shows. as I say, it's I

1:10:42

say, it's how I became familiar

1:10:44

with all the major diseases, because if

1:10:46

you do my benefit I will

1:10:48

do your benefit, so I knew all

1:10:51

about them. about them. that was the

1:10:53

beginning of that, and of the you know, when

1:10:55

got galvanized to save its life, to

1:10:57

save its life, that brought... a a

1:10:59

renewed interest in becoming

1:11:01

first -class citizens because

1:11:03

AIDS showed how how much we

1:11:06

weren't. and of course course, that

1:11:08

led to marriage equality

1:11:10

because the only way the only

1:11:12

that's something something that I of

1:11:14

basic. once yeah and Supreme

1:11:16

Court said, yes, 10

1:11:18

years ago, we were

1:11:21

in the we were fabric.

1:11:23

fabric yeah and And I was helped that

1:11:26

happen and I'm concerned that it and

1:11:28

I'm concerned that it

1:11:30

doesn't get dismantled Wade. It's

1:11:32

Wade. It's we that we

1:11:34

and stay on the case. stay on

1:11:36

the case. it seems that at least

1:11:38

culturally, there's a fight for

1:11:40

life again, a as a community.

1:11:42

As a community. Yeah, but I'm being

1:11:45

am being optimistic. I don't

1:11:47

see somebody saying to Pete

1:11:49

that his marriage doesn't exist

1:11:51

anymore anymore. I mean, when you're in in

1:11:53

levels of office already, I

1:11:55

mean I mean, even will not will

1:11:57

not be at January, but but,

1:11:59

um... It seems to me that more

1:12:01

people know gay couples who are married

1:12:04

than ever did before. And when you

1:12:06

look at polls, they don't disapprove of

1:12:08

it. So it is strictly a fundamentalist

1:12:10

right-wing dark-side quasi-religious fanaticism that is fueling

1:12:12

that is fueling that. Yeah, and they

1:12:15

have traction now. They have traction. Yeah.

1:12:17

You wrote the book, that's coming out,

1:12:19

and then you're doing a podcast. You're

1:12:21

going to be among the amorous. And

1:12:24

if you are heard in the UK...

1:12:26

I wrote a musical with Dolly Parton.

1:12:28

Was that what? It's called Here You

1:12:30

Come Again. No, it's now on. It's

1:12:32

on in London right now with the

1:12:35

Riverside Studios. Okay. It's about a, it

1:12:37

happened during COVID. Yeah. It's about a

1:12:39

40-year-old gay comic has never happened, working

1:12:41

as a waiter at Caroline's in New

1:12:43

York. COVID happens, the club closes, and

1:12:46

he has to quarantine in the attic

1:12:48

of his parents' home in Longview, Texas.

1:12:50

Okay. She steps out of a poster.

1:12:52

An actress named Tricia Peleucho, who's brilliant,

1:12:55

plays Dolly. And in the course of

1:12:57

one night, she sets him straight. So

1:12:59

it's called Here You Come Again, How

1:13:01

Dolly Saved My Life in 12 Easy

1:13:03

Songs. Oh. And we did five regional

1:13:06

productions here. And then we toured the

1:13:08

UK for six months. And now we're

1:13:10

in London. It's a hit. It's a

1:13:12

hit, yeah, we paid off. The UK

1:13:15

actually recouped, which is, you know, quite

1:13:17

something. And you wrote all the songs?

1:13:19

Dolly wrote all the songs. It's all

1:13:21

her catalog. And I co-wrote with our

1:13:23

director, Gabriel Barry, and our star, Trisha,

1:13:26

paid the show, because she's the... That

1:13:28

seems to be a pretty good model.

1:13:30

to if someone's got a big catalog

1:13:32

and you can wrap a show around

1:13:34

it. It's great. I mean, you know,

1:13:37

she's actually has been inspired not by

1:13:39

us, but by all the other musical

1:13:41

star shows. She's working on her own

1:13:43

catalog show, which is... Dolly is,

1:13:46

which will be about a

1:13:48

a year from

1:13:50

now. She can deliver

1:13:52

a a was called

1:13:54

called, I'm Dolly, But now

1:13:57

now it's called

1:13:59

Dolly, an original musical,

1:14:01

but she's looking

1:14:03

for a Dolly. looking for

1:14:06

a Dolly. I she wants

1:14:08

to, like, create

1:14:10

a star. a She's

1:14:12

funny. funny. Well Dolly is

1:14:14

is very funny. right. Oh, she's sorry. She's not

1:14:16

gonna be in it. to be in it. Right.

1:14:19

you worked with her? Oh, yeah, I

1:14:21

worked with her years ago, and

1:14:23

then I and then I I worked on on a

1:14:25

legendary flop TV show called Dolly. Yeah. I

1:14:27

think ABC Sunday Night show. Yeah, which I

1:14:29

did not include in the book the book.

1:14:32

for obvious reasons like you got like you

1:14:34

got another book be, be What are musicals you've been

1:14:36

been involved when you love it.

1:14:38

I had a musical called platinum. Yeah,

1:14:40

which is in the book Yeah, on

1:14:42

it, which with the book. Yeah. Along with Ice which

1:14:44

I'm in, is another thing

1:14:47

that kids which me about

1:14:49

constantly, that kids asked me about stop the

1:14:51

music, Can't stop the ask you

1:14:53

about it, the it's terrible? Why do

1:14:55

they ask you actually, they love

1:14:57

it. It's think cult movie, but

1:14:59

it's because it of like it was like

1:15:01

before space balls, but it was

1:15:03

like a of action action movie

1:15:05

parody. an uncomfortable It's an uncomfortable

1:15:07

parody of things, real, but the also

1:15:09

asking you to like it

1:15:11

for real. And whole thing

1:15:13

is very the reasons it was one

1:15:15

of the reasons lot was seen a

1:15:17

lot was it was Houston's second movie

1:15:19

Okay. and she won an Oscar

1:15:21

for her third third. so they began

1:15:23

showing all of her catalog, which to

1:15:25

three movies. Yeah, and Ted Ted loved

1:15:27

the ice pirates. So cable was was beginning and

1:15:29

he put it on all of

1:15:31

his cable stations constantly. this

1:15:33

day day, says says, what do I

1:15:35

do to can't get rid of it

1:15:37

rid of it. Somebody will come in come in years

1:15:39

years old the first thing they'll

1:15:42

say to me to me like being

1:15:44

was it like the ice an Amazon in the

1:15:46

had a career. had a career. What are they carrying

1:15:48

what makes the impact. That's what

1:15:50

makes the impression. what And the

1:15:52

podcast is called And the podcast is What

1:15:54

were they thinking? And I

1:15:57

did it with an

1:15:59

academician an Davis who's not Accadmission

1:16:01

makes him sound boring, he's very

1:16:03

funny. And we go, we pick

1:16:05

a year and we go through

1:16:08

the year and explain why things

1:16:10

won. His basic premise is nobody

1:16:12

remembers how green was my valley,

1:16:15

but it beats Citizen Kane. And

1:16:17

that's what we talk about. How

1:16:19

did that kind of stuff happen?

1:16:21

Movies that have no legs. Walked

1:16:24

away with trophies and movies that

1:16:26

are iconic and will live through

1:16:28

the centuries. Yeah, are overlooked. Well,

1:16:31

Jen, well, what's the general? What's

1:16:33

the consensus? How did that happen?

1:16:35

You know, well, because of Hearst

1:16:37

because Hearst didn't allow Citizen Kane

1:16:40

to get the press. Well, that

1:16:42

was that one case, but generally

1:16:44

speaking, why do these? Every case

1:16:47

is kind of different. Well, that

1:16:49

sounds interesting. So it's a series,

1:16:51

it's not an ongoing thing. I

1:16:53

think we've recorded three of them

1:16:56

and we're gonna do a bunch

1:16:58

more. And we've chosen random years.

1:17:00

Some of years were not even

1:17:02

I was alive. We go through.

1:17:05

Oh, great. Yeah. Well, it was

1:17:07

great talking to you, Bruce. What

1:17:09

a treat. Thank you. Thank you.

1:17:12

I am a fan. So Bruce's

1:17:14

new podcast is called Oscars. What

1:17:16

were they thinking? It's everywhere you

1:17:18

can get podcasts. Hang out for

1:17:21

a minute, folks. Okay guys, it's

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states. Hey, if you want some

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holiday-themed WTO material, you can listen

1:19:17

to episode 875. The shows of

1:19:19

Christmas past. That's a compilation episode

1:19:22

of some holiday moments from the

1:19:24

early years of the show. Thanks

1:19:26

for coming. This is going to

1:19:28

be the Christmas show. So let's

1:19:31

pretend like it's Christmas, shall we?

1:19:33

Let's take a minute. Let's talk

1:19:35

to the people that are listening

1:19:37

to this. This show is going

1:19:40

to go up on the 24th.

1:19:42

So it's a day before Christmas.

1:19:44

So let's assume there are people

1:19:47

maybe traveling home, all right, they're

1:19:49

on the plane, by themselves, freaking

1:19:51

out, because they have fucking family

1:19:53

to deal with, they're going back

1:19:56

to a home that's uncomfortable, filled

1:19:58

with abuse and pain. So

1:20:01

let's just talk to them. them. All right,

1:20:03

right, keep it together. let them in, keep right,

1:20:05

don't let them in. Keep them

1:20:07

out. you, Remember, get the ones that wired

1:20:09

you. They can get into the

1:20:11

box. tell people to lie, them out of the

1:20:13

box. to I don't usually tell people

1:20:15

to lie, but this is a

1:20:17

good time to start lying. through it, Pretend

1:20:20

that everything is it out. All right, tell them you

1:20:22

through it, but fuck her, just

1:20:24

write it out. them see the All right,

1:20:26

tell them you have things going on

1:20:28

that you don't. Don't let them

1:20:30

see the insecurity and don't

1:20:32

let your father hit you. All

1:20:34

right, just you. All right, just on.

1:20:36

Keep hold of the ship, stay

1:20:38

steady, and good luck luck, and

1:20:40

Merry Christmas. Again, that's that's episode 875. the

1:20:42

shows of Christmas past to To subscribe

1:20:44

to WTF Plus so you can

1:20:46

get every episode of WTF of

1:20:48

WTF ad go to the link

1:20:50

in the episode description and go

1:20:52

to wtfpod.com WTF click on WTF

1:20:55

on WTF Plus. And a reminder, before

1:20:57

we go, we go this hosted by

1:20:59

is hosted by ACAST. guitar piece took

1:21:01

me a long time, oddly, to

1:21:03

put together, and I don't

1:21:05

love the sound. I'm insisting on

1:21:07

going straight in, but it

1:21:09

doesn't give me me this I want.

1:21:11

I don't know why I

1:21:13

don't just surrender to the pedals. Surrender

1:21:15

to the the pedals. But I do But

1:21:17

I do understand more Jimmy Page

1:21:19

Page sounds like he sounds like.

1:21:21

like. If you go straight straight into

1:21:23

a it's gonna be clunky. be

1:21:26

I didn't do that. It's not

1:21:28

into a champ. not into a champ.

1:21:30

well, this was into into, well, matter.

1:21:32

Look, I'm just talking Look, I'm

1:21:34

minor guitar nerd shit that I

1:21:36

know from my my experience. Here,

1:21:38

let me just play It's is. this.

1:24:21

Boomer lives, Monkey and the

1:24:23

Fonda, cat Everywhere. everywhere.