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You know the

0:43

drill. All right, let's

0:45

do this. How are

0:47

you? What the fuckers?

0:49

What the fuck buddies?

0:51

What the fuck, nicks?

0:54

What's happening? I'm Mark

0:56

Marin. This is my

0:59

podcast. Welcome to

1:01

it again. Welcome to it

1:03

again. What's happening? Today

1:06

I talk to Peter Weller. Now

1:08

look, you know him, most

1:10

people know him as Robocop

1:12

and Buckeroo Bonzai. He was

1:15

also in Naked Lunch. That

1:17

was a film based on

1:19

the book. by William Burroughs, done

1:22

by David Cronenberg, and he

1:24

was in the Sons of

1:26

Anarchy, but he's also a

1:28

jazz musician and interestingly an

1:31

art historian. He has his

1:33

PhD in Italian Renaissance

1:35

art history, and he's publishing

1:37

his first book on the

1:39

painter Leon Battista Alberti.

1:42

Yeah, this is that guy. This

1:44

is a multi-talented, forever

1:46

curious. intelligent dude

1:48

that didn't just limit himself

1:50

to sitting around in a

1:53

trailer waiting to go on set

1:55

in the robot suit. And he's

1:57

also been around showbiz for

1:59

a while. This was a totally

2:01

surprising conversation. All right, I will

2:04

tell you that right now. You

2:06

know, I am, I wouldn't call

2:08

myself an intellectual, but I know

2:11

a few things about a lot

2:13

of things. I know some stuff

2:15

about a lot of stuff, and

2:17

but only goes so deep, you

2:20

know, because I'd never really, um...

2:22

I don't know that I ever

2:24

intellectually committed myself to anyone discipline

2:27

and everything was sort of like

2:29

just a rabbit hole to me.

2:31

And at some point in a

2:33

rabbit hole you reach a ledge

2:36

or like a place to hang

2:38

on you realize like I'm just

2:40

gonna stop here. I can't go

2:43

any deeper and this is where

2:45

I'm gonna I'm gonna be comfortable

2:47

with where I am now and

2:49

slowly make my way back up

2:52

again. I'll be in Grand Rapids,

2:54

Michigan coming to GLC live at

2:56

21 Row on Friday, April 11th.

2:59

That's next Friday. And then in

3:01

Traverse City, Michigan, I'll be at

3:03

the City Opera House on Saturday,

3:06

April 12th. In Los Angeles, here

3:08

in LA, I'm at Dynasty typewriter

3:10

Monday, April 14th, Saturday, April 26th,

3:12

and Tuesday, April 29th. Those are

3:15

all at 7.30 p.m. Gonna gonna

3:17

do Largo in LA. Got an

3:19

8 p.m show on Tuesday, April

3:22

22nd. Then coming in for the

3:24

home stretch, I'm in Toronto, Vermont,

3:26

New Hampshire, and then Brooklyn from

3:28

my HBO special taping at the

3:31

Bam Harvey Theater on May 10th.

3:33

Go to wtfpod.com/tour for all of

3:35

my dates and links to tickets.

3:38

I believe those Vermont shows are

3:40

definitely sold out. Toronto's getting close.

3:42

There are two shows there. New

3:44

Hampshire, some tickets. I think that

3:47

the HBO taping, let's be getting

3:49

close to sold out. But, uh...

3:51

We're coming in for landing, folks,

3:54

and I'm still sitting on about

3:56

an hour and a half that

3:58

I can make, that I've been

4:00

told I can do 70 minutes.

4:03

I got an extension. I got

4:05

a time extension. I got some

4:07

time added. Well, you know, end

4:10

times fun was 73 minutes, I

4:12

think. There's something about, no one's

4:14

doing hours anymore, all right? You

4:16

know, 43 is the new 60.

4:19

I don't know when the fuck

4:21

that happened, but like people are

4:23

churning, I think it's YouTube primarily

4:26

and self-production primarily that you're not,

4:28

you don't adhere to these things,

4:30

you don't have to. And I

4:32

get it, but I mean, Isn't

4:35

that the job? You're gonna do

4:37

an hour. I'm doing an hour.

4:39

That's what you're working towards an

4:42

hour, not 34 minutes. I mean,

4:44

that's like a middle act running

4:46

the light. Come on, man. Let's

4:49

do it. Let's do it old

4:51

school. Let's do it big-dick style.

4:53

Let's do it with some push

4:55

and some swagger. Come on. All

4:58

right, maybe I want a little

5:00

over the top with the big-dick

5:02

thing. I'm just saying that. put

5:05

the hour together. So that's what

5:07

I'm trying to do. Look man,

5:09

I'm just trying to like do

5:11

my job. All right, just get

5:14

off my back. I'm just trying

5:16

to do my job. So I

5:18

was happy to see some people

5:21

took my advice it seems or

5:23

at least I inspired them when

5:25

I was talking about because so

5:27

much horrible shit is going on

5:30

at such a pace. politically that

5:32

maybe you just make a sign

5:34

that says, please just stop. This

5:37

is crazy. Many variations, but I

5:39

guess a couple of people went

5:41

out on on the day before

5:43

yesterday on Saturday on April 5th

5:46

and and they sent me pictures

5:48

of their signs that were based

5:50

on my my my protest message.

5:53

Please just stop. This is crazy.

5:55

This ongoing. apocalyptic farce! God damn

5:57

it I wish it! wasn't real.

5:59

Oh my God. But I'm preoccupying

6:02

myself with many different things. Do

6:04

you know what I'm saying? I

6:06

mean this conversation, man, with Peter

6:09

Weller, man, we're going deep man.

6:11

He's a, you know, he's an

6:13

art historian, art historian. I minored

6:16

in art history in college. Yeah,

6:18

I went to college and and

6:20

I thought about things. I didn't

6:22

just party. I was always too

6:25

stressed out for that. A little

6:27

too hungry. A little too wanting

6:29

to be smarty. But I could

6:32

never contextualize anything because I was

6:34

unable to compartmentalize. So anything I

6:36

read or took in or tried

6:38

to wrap my brain around was

6:41

really just, it just all went

6:43

in and latched onto whatever it

6:45

could in my head. I was

6:48

never able to say like, well,

6:50

these are the parameters of your

6:52

thoughts. No, sir. Not for me,

6:54

no parameters. Just throw it all

6:57

into the blender. And let's see

6:59

what happens. Same. Same is happening

7:01

now. The same thing happens now.

7:04

I'll give you the one that

7:06

I'm kind of rolling around in

7:08

my head. Because, you know, okay,

7:10

so if you meditate, and I

7:13

gave this to David Harbor too,

7:15

you'll hear on that episode, me

7:17

and Harvard sat down again, did

7:20

the same sort of philosophical... addictive,

7:22

you know, let's try to make

7:24

sense of us kind of jam

7:26

session. Look forward to that. That's

7:29

coming, me and Arbor. But if

7:31

you want to meditate here, I've

7:33

got a little something, maybe wake

7:36

up and try this one. The

7:38

death of human empathy is one

7:40

of the earliest and most telling

7:43

signs of a culture about to

7:45

fall into barbarism. Let's say it

7:47

again. The death of human empathy

7:49

is one of the earliest and

7:52

most telling signs of a culture

7:54

about to fall into barbarism. That's

7:56

from Hannah Arendt. So yeah, you

7:59

know, that's a... That's a nice

8:01

wake-up. Or you throw in a

8:03

little Wilhelm Reich into

8:05

that. Fascism is the

8:08

frenzy of sexual cripples.

8:10

That's good. Pair those up

8:12

and you make an equation

8:15

out of it so you

8:17

can see what's coming. Just

8:19

a bunch of hateful freaks

8:21

who can't get laid or

8:23

can't keep it up or just

8:25

can't do it coming for

8:27

you. How are you? Good morning.

8:30

Everything okay. But the conversation

8:32

is great because we brought

8:35

up people that I hadn't

8:37

talked about in a while. Ernst

8:39

Gombridge. Ernst Gombridge.

8:41

I bet you I'm the only

8:43

person in the world right

8:46

now saying Ernst Gombridge. I

8:48

was assigned a book called Art

8:50

and illusion. A study in the

8:52

psychology of pictorial

8:55

representation. He

8:57

also wrote a book, I think,

8:59

about art history. But this was

9:01

because I did a year-long survey

9:03

class in the history of photography.

9:05

And I think out of any

9:07

class I ever took in my

9:09

life, and I've talked about this

9:11

before in different ways, that one

9:13

changed my brain the most. And

9:15

I could never get through that book.

9:17

I still have it. You know, there's

9:19

still time. I got a few of those

9:21

books from college. There's still time,

9:23

man. I'll get to it. I'll

9:25

get to it. Art and illusion,

9:28

a study in the psychology

9:30

of pictorial representation by Ernst

9:32

Gombrich. In

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some animal moments today. Well, I

10:57

hiked Running Canyon. I haven't been

11:00

over there in a long time.

11:02

Running is sort of the entry-level

11:04

hike for people wanting to get

11:06

into show business or tourists, where

11:08

you just walk up this hill.

11:10

It's very famous hike. Beautiful! I'd

11:12

forgotten just how spectacular the views

11:14

from the top of Running are

11:16

of LA and Hollywood and all

11:18

the way out to the oceans.

11:20

It's been very clear out here,

11:22

very pretty, very pretty. Primo. Primo,

11:24

LA weather. And both of my

11:26

flowers on either side of my

11:29

door, the pots are finally blooming

11:31

at the same time. It's very

11:33

aggravating. And I don't know anything

11:35

about gardening or what to do

11:37

about it when one blooms and

11:39

the other one blooms and sort

11:41

of like, can't you guys get

11:43

it together? Can't you just flower

11:45

at the same time? Is that

11:47

too much to ask from you

11:49

plants? You're right across from each

11:51

other. Make it happen. But today,

11:53

yeah, we, Kit and I hiked

11:55

up running with the dog, saw

11:58

a lot of people with their

12:00

dogs, a lot of dogs. And

12:02

I, you know, I don't spend

12:04

a lot of time around dogs.

12:06

I'm with the other, I'm with

12:08

the more challenging animal, the cat.

12:10

But dogs just do their own

12:12

thing, they'll see other dogs, hey,

12:14

what's up, or they won't even

12:16

acknowledge, you'll just be like, I'm

12:18

moving ahead, I'm moving ahead, got

12:20

no time to socialize, not interested,

12:22

all the different breeds. It was

12:24

nice, you know, we moved through

12:26

some aggravation at the beginning, some

12:29

parking based aggravation, which can, you

12:31

know, be, you know, a relationship

12:33

killer. One bad sort of morning

12:35

trying to find a parking space

12:37

and you know things can be

12:39

revealed that Make a relationship never

12:41

the same again the parking problem

12:43

We transcended it took half a

12:45

hike anyway So I get home

12:47

and there's a dog toy on

12:49

my fucking porch and out of

12:51

the corner of my eye I

12:53

see a coyote just come up

12:55

onto the porch and take the

12:58

dog toy out into my yard.

13:00

It was going to spend some

13:02

downtime tapping before something about my

13:04

yard. I think it's the hedge.

13:06

They feel kind of protected in

13:08

here and they take a load

13:10

off. Yeah, but I'd set my

13:12

ring camera so sensitive that primarily

13:14

just to catch a coyote if

13:16

I could or other wildlife and

13:18

I finally got one. I see

13:20

that coyote walk up and confidently

13:22

take as if it's his, the

13:24

dog toy. And I opened the

13:27

door because I don't know, pardon

13:29

me, wanted to pet the coyote

13:31

and it ran off, thank God.

13:33

I wouldn't have pet the coyote.

13:35

And then I had a moment

13:37

with a squirrel. You got checking

13:39

with a squirrel occasionally. You know,

13:41

they're all over the place and

13:43

I just ignore them entirely. I

13:45

never connect with the squirrels at

13:47

all. At all. I take them

13:49

for granted. And so I stopped

13:51

and there was a squirrel in

13:53

the tree and he stopped and

13:56

we you know, we did the

13:58

thing connected and that was good.

14:00

I told him I put some

14:02

nuts out for him. But more

14:04

importantly, Charlie, the struggle to feel

14:06

good about medicating. my favorite cat

14:08

is it's been really up and

14:10

down folks and it makes me

14:12

wonder honestly just who talks to

14:14

more crazy people psychiatrists or veterinarians

14:16

because I was crazy I kept

14:18

calling him calling her they you

14:20

know they put a vet tech

14:22

on the phone I want to

14:25

talk to a doctor He's

14:27

listless, he's lethargic, what is it? Well,

14:29

it takes a while to, you know,

14:31

figure out what the dose is. Well,

14:34

what do you mean? I'm taking him

14:36

off it. Man, up and down. And

14:38

finally, I realize that no one knows

14:41

anything or even how Prozac works in

14:43

cats or there's no research on it

14:45

at all. And, you know, it's really

14:48

just about, you know, this anxiety that

14:50

has now morphed into a territorial shit

14:52

show. But I just was gonna take

14:54

him off it. and just ride it

14:57

out with tranquilizing him daily when I'm

14:59

gone and then I'm like dude just

15:01

would you stop being so fucking whatever

15:04

it is like all or nothing like

15:06

this or that one or two zeros

15:08

and ones it just don't just you

15:11

know what's figured out what's what you

15:13

know so I gave him half the

15:15

dose that the doc prescribed and he

15:17

did come back to life a little

15:20

bit And I'm just going to do

15:22

that. And then if, when I go

15:24

away and I come back and I

15:27

have some time at home, I'll assess

15:29

again. And if I have to ween

15:31

him off it, I'll ween him off

15:34

it. The big problem is my needs

15:36

from this cat. I've gotten very used

15:38

to him being a certain way and

15:40

him meeting my needs, or at least

15:43

me accommodating it out, navigating the two

15:45

of us. And now he's like, you

15:47

know, because of the serotonin, I guess

15:50

his needs are less. And now I'm

15:52

just this annoying needy guy. Whereas before

15:54

I went back and forth. And now

15:57

I'm like, you know, not needed by

15:59

my cat. It's fucking heartbreaking.

16:01

You know what I'm saying? Am

16:03

I being, what's wrong with me?

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17:10

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well-being is worth it. Visit better

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help, help.com/wTF. Here we go. This

17:29

goes a lot of places, this

17:31

conversation, and it's pretty rewarding. It

17:33

was for me. This is me

17:35

talking to Peter Weller. Peter's first

17:38

book is called Leon Battista Alberti

17:40

in Exile, tracing the path of

17:42

the first modern book on painting.

17:44

Yeah, that's for real. It's available

17:46

May 1st. This is me talking

17:48

to Peter. Okay,

18:03

I got a question for it.

18:05

Yes. Is that you playing the

18:08

guitar sometimes in your breaks? Yeah,

18:10

it's great. Thanks man. Yeah, it's

18:12

got to be him because then

18:15

I hear strummer, then I hear

18:17

some lead, then I hear some...

18:20

Yeah. That's cool. It's something I

18:22

started doing and I generally

18:24

just sit here for a while

18:27

with a riff and you know

18:29

and work it out and then

18:31

just lay it down with no...

18:33

No real production value. Right. Just

18:35

stick that mic into one of

18:38

those old tube amps and play

18:40

one of these fuckers. And that's

18:42

where it goes. Yeah, I'm not,

18:45

I'm no genius, but I've got

18:47

some. That looks like a telecat.

18:49

Is that tele there? Yeah. That

18:51

tele is a great one. Like

18:53

I finally settled on a couple guitars you

18:56

know after I'm not a big I don't

18:58

collect and I've been given a lot of

19:00

guitars But I finally settled on on two

19:02

that I really dig and you know over

19:04

a period of Kind of being obsessed with

19:07

these old amps I finally found one that

19:09

I dig and I think I'm good now

19:11

I just have to unload some so you

19:13

got a telly and what else there? That's

19:15

a the telly's a telly I

19:18

think they're called the telly deluxe

19:20

right is got a it's like

19:22

a Keith Richards guitar that's a

19:24

reissue strat there from the custom

19:26

shop where that they relicked right

19:28

that thing for face forwarding forward-facing

19:30

is a 1960 Les Paul Jr.

19:33

Which I love the Junior is a

19:35

lighter guitar right it's a light guitar

19:37

and it's got that one P90 in

19:39

it so it can get pretty dirty

19:41

right you got a little range in

19:43

there you get that a kind of

19:45

New York doll sound or if you

19:47

want to plug into a big amp

19:49

you can get that Leslie West sound

19:52

but they clean up Leslie West man

19:54

yeah man heavy cat literally but great

19:56

I know I just listened to him recently

19:58

like I you know because he's like

20:00

a force to be reckoned with and

20:02

I think he's you know forgotten. I

20:05

think he's one of the great unsung

20:07

that's right driving a rock totally ideal

20:09

and you can I can hear the

20:11

guy I mean I'm a jazzer but

20:14

I'm a rocker I can in the

20:16

60s and my mother was a jazzer

20:18

and so yeah as my mother said

20:20

all music is great yeah but Leslie

20:23

Wes I think to me anyway to

20:25

me anyway is one of those cats

20:27

that I could pick him out when

20:29

I hear just. Yeah, it's that tone,

20:32

yeah. And I think, oh my God,

20:34

he's the great unsung hero of the

20:36

bridge. Driving, yeah. Rock riffs, man. Well,

20:39

yeah, well he played one of those.

20:41

That was his thing, man. The West

20:43

Paul Juniors. So when I hear you,

20:45

you know, I want to talk about

20:48

cats, then I want to talk about

20:50

politics, I can't get into that, then

20:52

I will talk about music, yeah. And

20:54

then I hear... That's your life though,

20:57

isn't it? Well, all that, yeah, art,

20:59

and then you talk about Rothko, with

21:01

somebody, and I think, oh God, now

21:03

I gotta get on there and talk

21:06

about Rothko. Yeah, sure you do. And

21:08

then, uh, I was listening to you

21:10

yesterday, I was picking up something from,

21:12

uh, because I love the cat, I

21:15

met him, it's Sony once, uh, uh,

21:17

W. Kamobel, yeah. And you said on

21:19

there... that something that just lazyred me

21:21

yeah I'm paraphrasing you said you pick

21:24

up the phone or read the news

21:26

and then you hope your kid doesn't

21:28

come in and see you're crying yes

21:30

right yeah I mean my kid has

21:33

seen me crying over I don't have

21:35

a kid so that it might have

21:37

been a come out but certainly yeah

21:40

it's the yeah but no yeah we

21:42

talk about that yeah it's so I

21:44

got a 13 year old oh yeah

21:46

and It's the greatest thing that ever

21:49

happened to me and the worst thing

21:51

that ever happened. Sure. Why is it

21:53

bad? How do you guide them? He's

21:55

going to adolescence. Yes. And there's that

21:58

amazing series now on. Oh I haven't

22:00

watched that. I don't want to watch

22:02

it. I don't want to watch it.

22:04

You know, I just hear it's like

22:07

terrific people piercing. Yeah. And do I

22:09

want to be that upset about what

22:11

the positive, except that it's informative and

22:13

the best thing that communication. could do

22:16

is inform. And subsequently, if it's about

22:18

weaning a boy away from genderful adjurance,

22:20

which it seems to be about, then

22:22

it's a good thing. I just don't

22:25

know why I want to jump into

22:27

that. Sure. Well, I mean, you know,

22:29

you got time, it'll be there. Yeah.

22:32

So tell me. It's not going anywhere

22:34

man. I don't know man. I got

22:36

a couple chapters left brother. Yeah. Yeah.

22:38

But you know, so like, you know,

22:41

I'm thinking about this a lot and

22:43

it seems like it's a focus of

22:45

your life at this point. So tell

22:47

me, you know, because in this time

22:50

of authoritarianism that is going to unfold.

22:52

you know, fairly quickly and I, you

22:54

know, I've got a big picture thing

22:56

going on in my head around. Hasn't

22:59

it already? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But

23:01

there's still this idea, there is a

23:03

facade of democracy that people are still

23:05

honoring in order to keep their gigs

23:08

and feel like they've got a handle

23:10

on shit. But in these times where

23:12

you, you know, where you have these

23:14

kind of... forces culturally and politically that

23:17

there's a notion that art is important

23:19

and incendiary and vital to push back.

23:21

And I don't know that Americans have

23:23

experienced the nature of this type of

23:26

fear where you implant. something in your

23:28

head, you know, that starts on your

23:30

phone, that tells you that, you know,

23:33

maybe you should just keep your mouth

23:35

shut and keep your head down, which

23:37

is easier with a phone. But, you

23:39

know, how does art save us, Peter?

23:42

Well, to me, okay, let's talk about

23:44

visual art for a second. Okay. Okay.

23:46

I got individual art through film. Right.

23:48

I was sort of embarrassed into it.

23:51

Well, my mother tried to turn me

23:53

on to it. I don't want to

23:55

go to any fucking museum and sit

23:57

around, look at, you know, scrigly lines

24:00

and shit. And then a great- Where'd

24:02

you grow up? I grew up all

24:04

over. My father was sort of a

24:06

G2 intelligence helicopter pilot and a bunch

24:09

of wars. Yeah. So did he talk

24:11

about it? No. And no, he, my

24:13

dad was, and then he retired and

24:15

became a federal judge, so you can

24:18

understand the control freak that that guy

24:20

was, no. on the same time my

24:22

mother was extraordinarily liberal and and artistic

24:24

and a piano player and her and

24:27

her grandmother piano player so i was

24:29

turning on the jazz that's interesting this

24:31

was in the 60s late 60s yeah

24:34

yeah so my dad was stationed the

24:36

United United States Armed Forces Headquarters headquarters

24:38

Europe in 59 yeah and the cold

24:40

wars going on and the Cuban missile

24:43

crisis going on and And hard bop

24:45

is going on. Hard bop is going

24:47

on. But my mother tries to turn

24:49

me on the hard bop. When I

24:52

was about nine, because I pick up

24:54

a trumpet. Yeah. I still play trumpet

24:56

and a quintet. Yeah. I like big

24:58

bands. I like Duke and that, right?

25:01

And then later on. And that's in

25:03

there because that's my Miles Davis diary.

25:05

I kept a diary about my my

25:07

experiences with Miles Yeah, and then this

25:10

and Rutledge asked me to edit it

25:12

down if I thousand words is so

25:14

subsequently that's that in this jazz and

25:16

literature As a literature Yeah, I like

25:19

the title. It's like a lot of

25:21

books have titles like that I have

25:23

and I usually get through you know,

25:25

you know, 20 30 pages Yeah, me

25:28

too, man. And then I say I

25:30

read it and I skimmed it. Sure,

25:32

sure. But anyway, look, yeah, good. I

25:35

want to celebrate today. Yeah. Because in

25:37

this art jam, Ali McGraw, the Great

25:39

and Beautiful, and Majora is Ali McGraw,

25:41

turn me on to contemporary modern art.

25:44

Yeah. I was doing a movie with

25:46

her. We never hung out after the

25:48

movie we started hanging out. Yeah. And

25:50

people think of her as a movie.

25:53

star in a model and so forth.

25:55

But what she really was was a

25:57

stylist. She was a graduate from Wellesley

25:59

in art history and design and so

26:02

forth and stylist for Diana Reel and

26:04

Vogue and whatever. So when do you

26:06

meet her? I did a movie with

26:08

her called Just Tell Me What You

26:11

Want? Cindy Lamette who is sort of

26:13

a granddad to me. Really? He's amazing

26:15

sort of mentor and friend. Oh he's

26:17

the best. So Ali after the film

26:20

takes me too. The largest Picasso exhibit

26:22

ever is when the Guernica is sort

26:24

of... Where at Edmo? EdmoMA. Before it

26:26

went back to Spain. My mother took

26:29

me to that. That was an 82

26:31

or something. Yeah, we made a special

26:33

trip. Yeah, I think I met my

26:36

mother down there. So you got five

26:38

floors of Picasso. Right. So what everybody

26:40

thinks of Picasso. They forget that he's

26:42

a great figurative artist. A figurative real.

26:45

That's the important thing. You know, you

26:47

know, it's one of those things. It's

26:49

one of those things. You know, you

26:51

know, you know, you know, you know,

26:54

it's one of those things. do the

26:56

other thing? Yeah, he can do it

26:58

all. Yeah, can you play, can you

27:00

play Night in Tunisia without knowing your

27:03

Bach inventions? That's right. Yeah, yeah, you

27:05

gotta have the foundation. Exactly right. Take

27:07

it. Unless you're Jimmy or somebody like

27:09

that. Yeah. So she takes me to

27:12

that and I go, where do I

27:14

start? Okay, I start with... impressionist wherever

27:16

it's easy to see Monet and Monet

27:18

and I sort of I sort of

27:21

pick up the books going forward and

27:23

I go pick up the books going

27:25

backwards man you get to the Renaissance

27:27

brother and it's yeah it's too much

27:30

it's war it's politics it's poetry it's

27:32

economics it's patronage it's patronage it's patronage

27:34

it's taxes it's it's this thing you're

27:37

talking about what is art mean is

27:39

art political or not you know it's

27:41

yeah or is it possible to is

27:43

it revolutionary It's too much. Yeah. So

27:46

I stop. You stop what? Looking at

27:48

it? I stop. I don't want to

27:50

go, I don't want to study one

27:52

my way back. I want to become

27:55

the smarty pants in the room. Yeah.

27:57

Who could talk about Cy Twombly or

27:59

Frankethaler or whatever? You know, because I've

28:01

jammed with alley. Yeah. I've had lunches,

28:04

you know, and, you know, I've been

28:06

hanging out and so forth. So anyway,

28:08

I am at the Japanese International Film

28:10

Festival in Kyoto with the great Jean

28:13

Moreau, Jufo Jean Moreau, and Mike Medavoy,

28:15

a great Orion producer, producer, producer, producer,

28:17

many films, and Victoria Stararo. And for

28:19

those of people listening to this who

28:22

don't know, Victoria Stararo, if I said

28:24

the movie's Apocalypse now, sheltering sky, Last

28:26

Emperor, Last Angon Go in Paris. What

28:28

is he? Yeah, he's the guy

28:31

that first, first filtered

28:33

technicolor. Yeah. With

28:35

Darrio Argento, that's where he

28:37

began with it. Yeah. Okay,

28:40

so he's, visions of

28:42

light, he's a, he's a true,

28:44

cliche game changer. Yeah, he's, those

28:46

guys are the real geniuses. Yeah.

28:48

All the time. As a matter

28:51

of a couple, I said he's

28:53

the only guy that could spend

28:55

two years in a Philippine jungle

28:57

in a white suit. Yeah. And

28:59

if you've met Vitor, he's one

29:01

of my birthday things. So I

29:03

try to place art smarty pants

29:05

with Vitorio. I go in Italian.

29:08

I say, Kie, favorito. Who's your

29:10

favorite painter? And he goes, who's

29:12

yours? I don't know. I dropped some

29:14

names. Yeah. He says, have you ever

29:16

been to Padova been to Padova.

29:18

in the very first narrative

29:20

of one by one,

29:22

four, six frames of

29:24

depth, feeling, color, perception,

29:26

narrative, movie. Joto. Joto.

29:28

Yeah, G-I-O-T-T-O, yeah. And

29:31

I go who? And

29:33

he says, Joto. And

29:35

he says, Joto. And

29:37

so Medavoy and Jean

29:39

Moreau are watching this.

29:41

So I don't want

29:43

to eat shit in

29:45

front of that. Yeah.

29:47

And says, well, Peter,

29:49

we cannot talk about art. And

29:51

walks off, man. And dig. I

29:53

run after this. Pretentious. And I say,

29:56

I say potential, though, which

29:58

means you're pretentious. fuck.

30:00

And he goes, no, you are

30:02

pretentious because you're like most Americans

30:04

who can spout off these names.

30:06

Jackson Pollack, whatever, Larry River, but

30:08

you've got no context. If you

30:10

don't go see Joto in the

30:12

Capella Scrovene, which is only 20

30:14

yards long, in the very first

30:16

narrative, by the way, everybody talks

30:18

about him. Leonardo talks about Michelangelo,

30:20

Picasso, Rothco, writes a whole sort

30:23

of homage to the guy. So

30:25

if you don't know this guy,

30:27

you've got no context. Yeah. None.

30:29

And I feel slapped. Yeah, you

30:31

were. And I was. Yeah. And

30:33

I say, hey man, what's with

30:35

Joto? Yeah. She says, I tried

30:37

to turn you on to him,

30:39

but you didn't want to listen

30:41

to that. You wanted to do

30:43

all of a contemporary. Yeah. Anyway,

30:45

it is the anniversary of that

30:47

church opening and revealing those frescoes,

30:49

which are insightful. turn of all

30:51

visual art takes today. March 25th,

30:54

1305. When did you get out

30:56

there? I went immediately, there's a

30:58

great friend of mine, Brian Hamill,

31:00

Brian Hamill, his brother of Pete

31:02

Hamill, one of the great sports

31:04

writers, Dennis John Hamill, one of

31:06

my first friends in New York,

31:08

and he's one of the great

31:10

poster photographers ever, DeNiro and Raging

31:12

Bull and so on, the great

31:14

poster photographers ever, Daniro and Raging

31:16

Bull and Manhattan, and so on,

31:18

I had that poster, and I

31:20

said, we got to go to

31:23

this place, it's like a thing.

31:25

Brian goes, oh my god man,

31:27

ain't say nothing like it. So

31:29

I go every single December 24th

31:31

now. Yeah, to look, to sit.

31:33

To sit. Be present. Now you're

31:35

only allowed 15 minutes because it's

31:37

all hermetically sealed and restored. Oh,

31:39

okay. So that's Joto. It's called

31:41

the Arena Chapel in English. Yeah.

31:43

It's a Capella Scovine. Okay. You

31:45

dig Rothko's chapel in Houston. Rothko.

31:47

Rothko's whole square imagery of color

31:49

comes out of Joto. No shit,

31:51

yeah, yeah had to come from

31:54

somewhere. It all came, like Carlo

31:56

Cara, maybe the guy who invented

31:58

cubism, comes from Joto, Picasso. Well,

32:00

it's interesting that the arc from

32:02

Joto to Rothko is a complete

32:04

deconstruction of narrative. It truly is,

32:06

but you know, it's like what

32:08

Ernst Gomberg said. You got through

32:10

that book? What story of art?

32:12

Yeah. I keep it by my

32:14

bedside man. Like a Bible man.

32:16

Like you know some people read

32:18

Torah, I read that shit. So,

32:20

but also read Torah, so what

32:22

the hell. But it's all connected.

32:25

Yeah. And I dig with Gomberg

32:27

said, you know, Gomberg's the man.

32:29

Yeah, he said the hip thing,

32:31

you know, everybody wants to be

32:33

cool. And say, I know what

32:35

I like. Yeah. You don't know

32:37

what you like. You like what

32:39

you know. If someone takes you

32:41

by the hand and walks you

32:43

from Joe to the Rothko. You're

32:45

going to end up liking Rothko

32:47

may not be your favorite, but

32:49

you're going to get it instead

32:51

of just look at a bunch

32:53

of red squares. Put it into

32:56

context. Exactly right. Okay, well that's

32:58

an interesting place to start in

33:00

the sense of my question is

33:02

that, you know, in a time

33:04

where, you know, there is no

33:06

context. That, you know, the imposition

33:08

of context on young minds now

33:10

is going to be a tall

33:12

order dude. You know, everything's happening

33:14

at all once all the time.

33:16

Yeah. context and in a world

33:18

where there's a con, where there's

33:20

no context, y'all you're running on

33:22

is, you know, a little reactive

33:25

triggers to things and you have

33:27

no foundation for shit. So... Especially

33:29

when the media is coming at

33:31

you so fast that you can

33:33

cut everything else out. Yeah, yeah,

33:35

no, we have a, we have

33:37

the delivery system right here and

33:39

we fucking annihilate our brains every

33:41

morning. That's right. So, so my

33:43

question like in terms of... Well,

33:45

it's not even a question necessarily

33:47

you can answer, but it's just

33:49

something I think about, you know,

33:51

when, well, it's funny because I'm

33:53

doing this bit now. It's starting

33:56

to work, you know. I'm talking

33:58

about like these when you flip

34:00

through reals on the phone. The

34:02

bit I'm doing is, you know,

34:04

I watched a drainage pipe unclog

34:06

itself for a minute and a

34:08

half, and it did not feel

34:10

like wasted time. And then like,

34:12

this is meditated, right? Well, I

34:14

know, but it's on my phone

34:16

and it's there for a reason.

34:18

It's getting me to hold my

34:20

attention for a minute and a

34:22

half with all the other garbage

34:24

coming through. But then I said,

34:27

like, this must, I have, the

34:29

way my brain works is like,

34:31

this is it, this is what

34:33

art is now, man, because art

34:35

doesn't answer questions, you know, it

34:37

asks, you know, But, you know,

34:39

my struggle is, yeah, if I

34:41

go sit at the Rothco where

34:43

I listen to people talk, you

34:45

know, I'm talking to you, or

34:47

if I'm at the gym today,

34:49

I've got a guy two treadmills

34:51

over telling another guy about how

34:53

his wife fucked around on him.

34:56

And it's like there's a human

34:58

connection to all of it, that

35:00

once we get out of the

35:02

visceral human connection of things, which

35:04

I think most people are out

35:06

of, you know, how do we

35:08

have community? Yeah, thanks a lot

35:10

for laying. That's shit, Joe. I

35:12

mean, but you know something. Did

35:14

it make sense? Yeah, totally make

35:16

sense. Good. Look, I got to.

35:18

Another thing you talk about is

35:20

sobriety. I'm sober. Yeah. So another

35:22

thing is that you talk about,

35:24

you had Sam Quinionas on here.

35:27

Yeah. Okay. I couldn't get through

35:29

it because all that drugs? Those

35:31

are my drugs. Oh, yeah. You're

35:33

a meth guy or a dope

35:35

guy? Meth guy. Yeah. Meth got

35:37

back in the 60s and trial

35:39

of 60s. No, real deal, liquid

35:41

does oxygen shit, man. Geez it.

35:43

Yeah. You know what gezing means?

35:45

No. That's the old William Burrow's

35:47

term for shooting it. Oh, yeah.

35:49

Okay, that's what it was. Geezing.

35:51

I should know that one. Yeah.

35:53

Those people are huge influence to

35:55

me. Sure. And thank God I'm

35:58

sober, but the thing is what

36:00

you're talking about watching the trash

36:02

come out of a pipe. Yeah.

36:04

If it wasn't, the people say,

36:06

you know, this is the other

36:08

cliche about being sober. Yeah. You

36:10

know, I thank God for my

36:12

drug addiction and my, and whatever,

36:14

because it wouldn't have led me

36:16

to a place where I can

36:18

appreciate that. The shit coming out

36:20

of a drainage pipe and stare

36:22

at it. Yeah. Or sitting and

36:24

now I do. Zem meditation and

36:27

I have to do it. Does

36:29

that go for you all right?

36:31

I have to do it every

36:33

day man. Like what twice once?

36:35

You know I should do it

36:37

twice I do it once. 15

36:39

minutes? No 25. Yeah. Yeah and

36:41

just watch to watch the shit

36:43

the garbage come out. Yeah okay

36:45

so there's a metaphor. Yeah yeah

36:47

no no no it's like when

36:49

I was staring at that. We're

36:51

staring at a flower or a

36:53

rothco. For 25 minutes while my

36:55

mind... unloads garbage out of a

36:58

pipe is a salvation to me.

37:00

Now I can't explain that to

37:02

a 24-year-old who's on the rise

37:04

on Wall Street. You know, thinking

37:06

about a Ferrari. Yeah. They ain't

37:08

got to get that. Yeah, well

37:10

I mean, I don't know. You

37:12

know, I think I think you're

37:14

right. I don't think they ever

37:16

would have gotten it. I just

37:18

worry about, I guess, when it

37:20

comes right down to it. Because,

37:22

you know, I've dug into jazz

37:24

a bit. I hear what you're

37:26

saying about art and I get

37:29

that context. And where we started

37:31

was, how does it make an

37:33

impact? Okay. So if you put

37:35

it into context and appreciate it.

37:37

still. So like when I sit

37:39

in the Rothco Chapel, I'm like,

37:41

this is something people should do,

37:43

you take this in, right? And

37:45

if I listen to jazz and

37:47

you realize, you know, 99.5% of

37:49

human beings don't even know this

37:51

shit. And these guys were fucking

37:53

astronauts. So, you know, like, you

37:55

know, what is the impact, man?

37:57

You know, how... How do we

38:00

facilitate, how do we elevate the

38:02

culture in a expansive way if

38:04

all we do is sit and

38:06

take in this garbage from our

38:08

phone? Certainly there's some music or

38:10

some movies that do it, you

38:12

know, occasionally, but you know, I'm

38:14

just worried about all of us

38:16

untethered creatives who are now being

38:18

kind of held down by our

38:20

own minds and what is a

38:22

genuine authoritarianism? How do we keep

38:24

people still churning away? Yeah,

38:27

you want to respond to

38:29

that? Well, I mean, talk

38:32

about jazz. Well, look, look,

38:34

jazz is anger. Yeah. You

38:36

read Leroy Jones. Yep. About

38:39

jazz. It comes from, yeah,

38:41

it comes from marching

38:43

and funerals and

38:45

whatever, but it

38:47

becomes a vestige

38:49

of black American

38:51

anger. Yeah. And I get it.

38:54

To listen to music, any of

38:56

it, if I hear Jimmy or

38:59

I hear Leslie West, or I

39:01

hear Miles, I hear whatever, I

39:03

hear resurrection, I hear a blowback.

39:06

It never takes me into a

39:08

place of, I can just like

39:11

accept everything that's

39:13

going on. It agitates me.

39:15

Yeah. And that agitation alone

39:17

is the thing that wakes

39:20

me up. And it does it more

39:22

than, look, somebody said, I don't know,

39:24

Pascal, somebody said, some of the great

39:26

philosophers said, that all arts can only

39:29

aspire to music. Yeah. Because everything else

39:31

is interpretive and music is not. It's

39:33

in you and does something to you.

39:36

And music is magic. It's magic. Right.

39:38

And it's also personal. Yeah. And it's

39:40

also upsetting. Yeah. I have called me

39:43

a glass half fold guy. Yeah. But

39:45

as long as music is around, and

39:47

by the way, there are certain times

39:49

and certain cultures where it's been

39:52

suppressed. Yeah. I've I've hope I've

39:54

hoped that somebody's gonna, the music,

39:56

look Mark, from 63 to 73, and

39:58

that's not my idea. Music was on

40:01

the cutting edge of all the arts.

40:03

It was on the cutting edge of

40:05

poetry, play is theater, it doesn't matter

40:07

what it was. From 63 to 70,

40:10

there was an album, it doesn't come

40:12

about, whether it was Jimmy or Moody

40:14

Blues or Otis or Aretha or Bob

40:16

Dylan like every other thing, you know,

40:18

or Donovan or Cream, or Zeppelin, like

40:20

that, it was furious music. Yeah. And

40:23

it infuriated me. Yeah. And a good

40:25

way. And a good way. And as

40:27

Cheech Marin says, you know, as a

40:29

joke, as a joke, he says, you

40:31

know, we had a reason to take

40:34

drugs back then because there, you know,

40:36

there was a fucking revolution going on.

40:38

He says, I don't know why people

40:40

take drugs now. I mean, it's a

40:42

Queen Yona's thing. And I agree, because

40:45

that was, that music was the agitator.

40:47

to saying I hate this yeah and

40:49

this is a moral and this is

40:51

cheap shit and right but I I'm

40:53

glad I still live in a country

40:55

you know to get to a particular

40:58

guy that you were quoting on the

41:00

TV shows seems a little bit passive

41:02

about it a liberal dude I'm glad

41:04

I'm not living in a North Korea

41:06

brother yeah I'm glad somebody, not yet.

41:09

Well, I don't know, maybe I'm the

41:11

cock-eyed optimist, but I think as long

41:13

as we got music, you know, that

41:15

we got big inspiration, we got big

41:17

hope. Good, well, you know, as long

41:20

as we got art, too. Because, look,

41:22

okay, so that's better. Okay, there you

41:24

go. Okay, the Nazi censored art. Yeah,

41:26

the Russians have censored art. And Trump

41:28

just closed down the Kennedy Center, so

41:31

he could run the Kennedy Center, so

41:33

he could run the Broadway shows down

41:35

the Kennedy Center, So like, you know,

41:37

but how does that look, you know,

41:39

in, in the big picture, how does

41:41

art get censored, how to, you know,

41:44

gets, you know, the platforms don't, uh,

41:46

integrate it, you know, like it's a

41:48

different time. trying to adjust to it,

41:50

you know? And, you know, I'm a

41:52

guy that, you know, even if I

41:55

don't want to go to art, like,

41:57

I go to Houston, I'm going to

41:59

go to the Rothco Chapel because I

42:01

know that every time I sit before

42:03

that stuff or every time I take

42:06

in a movie masterpiece or I listen

42:08

to a jazz record of one sort

42:10

of or another, that as I age

42:12

and as my brain changes and as

42:14

I become deeper or more humble or

42:16

more angry, that that thing's going to

42:19

sing to sing to me in a

42:21

mean in a different way in a

42:23

different way. I got to go back

42:25

there. You know, you inspired me to

42:27

go back there. I've only seen it

42:30

once. Yeah, well, it's just, it's just

42:32

that that is for me, you know,

42:34

what defines genius is that you can,

42:36

you can go back to their work

42:38

at different points in your life and

42:41

have a completely different experience every time.

42:43

True, but what are you taking away

42:45

from the experience? Are you taking away

42:47

the freedom? You take away, you know,

42:49

if your brain is wiser, you know,

42:52

there's a depth. That happens that wasn't

42:54

there before. You know, it could be

42:56

relative to your emotional state or to

42:58

what you've learned or to what you've

43:00

let go of, but you know, something

43:02

keeps going deeper in. I guess it's

43:05

freedom. I definitely appreciate their freedom because

43:07

you're sitting or in looking at or

43:09

listening to, you know, a free motherfucker.

43:11

Right? Yeah. So yeah, that's definitely part

43:13

of it. You're like, this guy was

43:16

out there, and now I'm halfway there.

43:18

I was only a quarter of the

43:20

way there when I saw this 20

43:22

years ago, but now I'm halfway there.

43:24

Yeah. Yeah. I got, you inspire me

43:27

to go back, if I can inspire

43:29

you to go to Padua to Sijoto.

43:31

Yeah, yeah, no, I'll go man. Where

43:33

is it? In Padua? Padua is about

43:35

15 minutes out of Venice. Okay. You

43:37

go to Venice, you take the train,

43:40

and Padua is the second oldest, civic

43:42

university, that we have, civic, civic, university,

43:44

that we have after Bologna. Yeah. And

43:46

it's one of the hippic cities, man,

43:48

it's like a small town city. Yeah,

43:51

that were kind of a cultural, you

43:53

know, touch points and culture changers. Yeah,

43:55

you know, but like you and people

43:57

know you from from Robocopa and I

43:59

remember being very excited about about naked

44:02

lunch and about Cronenberg's approach to Burrows

44:04

because he's one of those guys even

44:06

though I didn't I wasn't hip to

44:08

geezing. I've seen the word, but I

44:10

didn't know necessarily what it meant. Also

44:13

16 years of the theater in New

44:15

York, and I listen to you with

44:17

Tracy Letts, but nobody brings up to

44:19

theater in New York, man. Theater in

44:21

New York, I talked to Pachino for

44:23

like... He's like a mentor to me,

44:26

he's one of the great guys. I

44:28

mean, like to me too. I had

44:30

one of these conversations with him was

44:32

a fucking game chain. Yeah. Because I

44:34

think people, you know, they project on

44:37

to him and they don't know him,

44:39

but if you listen to him, he's

44:41

a very sensitive kind. But a real

44:43

truth seeker, do you? Yeah, you know,

44:45

he's very aware of the compromises he

44:48

made because of his, you know, fiscal

44:50

irresponsibility, but when it comes down to

44:52

it, you know, he's a, like, he's

44:54

an artist. Yes. He's not a, he's

44:56

not just a working actor. No, he's

44:58

an inspiration to me when I was

45:01

coming up. Yeah, sure. In the theater.

45:03

Well, in Panicking Needle Park is the

45:05

first thing I saw when I was

45:07

started off in the theater. And also

45:09

he was, uh, a studio guy and

45:12

a method guy and so am I.

45:14

How'd you end up in New York?

45:16

Ah, good idea. I was with the

45:18

North Texas State, a big jazz school

45:20

playing the trumpet and my whiplash moment.

45:23

I was sick of people yelling at

45:25

me. I wasn't going to be Miles

45:27

Davis. I didn't know what to do.

45:29

I had to stay out of Vietnam.

45:31

My brother and my dad just came

45:34

back and so I switched to English

45:36

and theater and then realized I was

45:38

the only thing for me was to

45:40

act. This at the trumpet. Yeah. I'm

45:42

sitting on a bandstand. I'm playing a

45:44

cow base. a tune called Cloud Burst.

45:47

Yeah. I'm playing, I'm soloing on Cloud

45:49

Burst. Yeah. And the very nice guy

45:51

who's running the band, it's all Leon

45:53

Breeding, this one o'clock, you know, the

45:55

guys in the one o'clock, all famous

45:58

guys, bones, Malone, Lou Maureen, these are

46:00

all, Lou Maureen, yeah, these are the

46:02

cats I went to school, Lou Maureen,

46:04

yeah, these are the cats I went

46:06

to school, Lou Maureen, yeah, these are

46:09

cats I went to school, Lou Maureen,

46:11

yeah, these are cats I went to

46:13

school, Lou Maureen, Lou Maureen, yeah, you

46:15

know, these are, these are, these are,

46:17

these are, these are, these are, these

46:19

are the cats I'm. It's like whiplash.

46:22

It's totally whiplash. The guy wants to

46:24

throw a symbol at me and I

46:26

want to quit. So I go, man,

46:28

I'm not going to do this for

46:30

$49 and change. And I'm not going

46:33

to be Miles, who's in this book,

46:35

and is my only here. I just

46:37

want to preface it by saying, I

46:39

was with Miles the last gig he

46:41

ever played in his life. Last person

46:44

out of dressing him walking to his

46:46

car 18 days later, he was dead.

46:48

So there's not a change in my

46:50

life that I don't have a Miles

46:52

Davis album that corresponds. Yeah. But I

46:54

realize it wasn't going to be Miles.

46:57

So... Which is the one you go

46:59

back to the most? Ah... Because I

47:01

got one. I got one. Okay. The

47:03

one I go back to the most,

47:05

because I hear it every time I

47:08

go to the dentist, is Bitches Brew.

47:10

Yeah. Yeah. For me, it's in a

47:12

silent way. Well, that's right before Bichesbrough,

47:14

man. I mean, that's Joseph and all...

47:16

Oh, yeah. And he annoys me, but

47:19

that... Does he? Yeah. Yeah. There's something

47:21

about a swagger in his hat, but

47:23

I get his place in it, but

47:25

I'm not a weather report person, but

47:27

in a silent way, the transition from...

47:30

Liquid heart. Yes, what that is. And

47:32

I'll fucking, I'll take the Jack Johnson

47:34

record too. No one ever talks about...

47:36

No, I love the Jack Johnson, man.

47:38

Or on the corner. If I take

47:40

those... You know, it's hip that you

47:43

are saying that, because most people go

47:45

to Kind of Blue, catch this, catch

47:47

this back, whatever. I was cold train.

47:49

I can't say it's hack. No, no,

47:51

I mean, but it's, most of those

47:54

people are guilty of what you had

47:56

that moment with that DP. That's right.

47:58

Yeah. That's exactly, they got no context.

48:00

Right. Yeah. They got that and they

48:02

stopped there. And then it's like with

48:05

Keith, Jared said Miles and Miles. Why

48:07

don't you play those ballads anymore? Yeah,

48:09

yeah, because that's all I'll play. Yeah,

48:11

yeah, yeah, bitch. In a silent way,

48:13

I love you for that, man. Yeah,

48:15

because he goes out. Most people will

48:18

not bring that up. And Herbie on

48:20

there? Herbie. Yeah. That's that fucking, that,

48:22

that, that, that record to me is

48:24

like, oh, it all, it all comes

48:26

from here. Yeah, anything, you know, like,

48:29

you know, any Ambient music, any Brian

48:31

Eno, like, you know, Velvet Underground aside,

48:33

but like the space that he creates

48:35

inside the way. I'm not supposed to,

48:37

the Velvet Underground doesn't come from that,

48:40

that man. Yeah, yeah. I had a

48:42

couple of couples with him, a man

48:44

about biggiz influence. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah.

48:46

All right, so you go, so you,

48:48

you, you, you, you, you, you, you,

48:51

I fuck off, you're like, I'm done

48:53

with this shit and you're like, I'm

48:55

done with this shit and you're like,

48:57

I'm going to act. I'm going to

48:59

act. I'm going to act. I'm going

49:01

to act. I'm going to act. I'm

49:04

going to act to act. I'm going

49:06

to act, I'm going to act, I'm

49:08

going to act, I'm going to act,

49:10

I'm going to act, I'm going to

49:12

act, I'm going to act, I'm going

49:15

to act, I'm going to act, I'm

49:17

going to act to act, I'm going

49:19

to act to act to act to

49:21

act, I'm going to act, I'm going

49:23

to act to act to act, I'm

49:26

going to act to act to act,

49:28

I'm going to act to act to

49:30

I grew up in San Antonio, your

49:32

favorite town. I heard you talking about

49:34

San Antonio. That's where I grew up,

49:36

man. And then Denton, I spent three

49:39

years there. And then I said, I

49:41

was hitchhiking down to Austin, my dad,

49:43

and I retired, he was going to

49:45

law school in Austin. And I'm a

49:47

hitchhog, I said, what do you do?

49:50

And I said, I'm an actor. And

49:52

I said, who, that's what I am.

49:54

Now here's an interesting thing about parents.

49:56

My mother who comes from that. Yeah.

49:58

I apply for a scholarship to the

50:01

American Academy of Dramatic Arts. I think,

50:03

oh wow, my mother's gonna be so

50:05

happy. I go there, man. I'm gonna

50:07

do New York, this is where I'm

50:09

gonna be. I go to Texas, to

50:12

go to New York, Texas, my dad's now

50:14

a judge. I say, hey, Ma, guess what?

50:16

I got a scholarship to New York. Yeah.

50:18

My mother absolutely annihilates me,

50:20

man. Really? Yeah, she says you ain't

50:22

going to New York, I'm from New York,

50:24

and New York's gonna kill you, you never

50:26

make a New York, you just stay in

50:28

school. Yeah. Actor, you're kidding man, nobody makes

50:31

it is an actor, your dad will never

50:33

give you money for that, blah, blah, blah,

50:35

I feel absolutely denigrated. Yeah. This is from

50:37

the, this is from the creative side of

50:39

the family. Yeah. This is the one I'm expecting

50:41

to go hurray. Yeah. And I go to see

50:43

my dad and I go to see my

50:45

dad and he's. judges chambers, I'm not

50:47

going to do it. He says, I

50:50

know where you're here. I said, yeah,

50:52

I'm going to New York. He says,

50:54

what do you want? I said, I

50:56

need some loot. How much? I

50:58

said, I don't know, about $600

51:00

a month. How long? It's two

51:02

years. When are you paid back?

51:05

Two years after that. Two years?

51:07

Two years after that. Two years

51:09

after that. The only thing the

51:11

secret of life is do what

51:13

you want you want to do?

51:15

No, no, no, not going into those judges

51:17

chambers. This is going to be the

51:19

end of the dream. Here's another thing

51:21

about, I just want to like vamp

51:24

on this, here's another thing about sobriety.

51:26

Yeah. It's only being so many years

51:28

of off shit, with some sort of

51:30

program, what you want to call a

51:32

spiritual lot, that I could put my parents

51:34

into context, like you just talking about, without

51:37

being the kid who can, has to remove

51:39

the parents and put them in, you know,

51:41

a snapshot, a snapshot, on an iPhone, on

51:43

an iPhone, and go, yeah, fuck them, that's

51:46

what they were. Yeah. I could put my

51:48

parents in a context and actually take away

51:50

huge gifts. Yeah. They gave me, in spite

51:52

of the fact that my mother was a

51:54

functioning alcoholic, my dad was a control freak.

51:57

Yeah, well, you mean, you got to at

51:59

some point get the... gifts and put them

52:01

up front as opposed to liabilities. True, but

52:03

a lot of cats don't do that. No,

52:05

I know, you can't hold on that forever

52:07

because then you're just going to, you know,

52:09

repeat it. Yeah. Yeah, no, it takes a

52:11

while, you know, to go like, all right,

52:14

well, let's focus on the good things. Yes.

52:16

How am I who I am in a

52:18

good way that I can give them credit

52:20

for? Yeah. Oh man, 67? So you, so

52:22

when you're, when you're playing horn, you gotta

52:24

do the drugs. No. After. I never liked

52:26

performing or doing anything behind drugs or even

52:28

being on a date. Yeah. It was, I

52:30

mean, speed's not a great, it's not a

52:32

great art drug, I don't think. That's not

52:35

the go-to, to get deep. No, no, no,

52:37

no. No, it's not the dreamland thing, no.

52:39

No, that's a that's a guy deal. Let's

52:41

go out and let's let's go out and

52:43

the it's again on a Harley Davidson and

52:45

go a hundred miles an hour. Yeah, it's

52:47

a 35. You did that? Yeah. How is

52:49

that? It's the greatest excitement I ever had

52:51

and I'm really grateful I did it. It

52:53

went 100 miles an hour in a Harley

52:56

Davidson, shot up with stuff. But I'm also

52:58

glad to survive because there's so many cats.

53:00

I mean, my wife says, how can you

53:02

laugh about that stuff? Like I'm laughing with

53:04

you. And my friend Joe, who's another sober

53:06

guy, says, and he said, Sherry, who has

53:08

no... Experience about it all just because we're

53:10

living. Yeah, because we lived through it and

53:12

there's so many people who are dead or

53:14

in jail or whatever You know are maimed.

53:17

Oh, you got a laugh. We got a

53:19

laugh. Yeah, you pulled it off Yeah, that's

53:21

that's that's that's true And don't you feel

53:23

that we have that we have to have

53:25

some sort of oh no, it's the best

53:27

dude like because you know Normie's never going

53:29

to get it and even if you tell

53:31

them the story. Yeah And that's the comedy

53:33

of it. Yeah, yeah. And my dad said

53:35

that about my mom. She says, don't ever

53:38

tell your mom the stupid shit you ever

53:40

did. Don't ever tell her any age. And

53:42

one time I was 55, she was 80,

53:44

was in Italy, 15 people. Somebody brings up

53:46

some stupid thing like that. Yeah. And she

53:48

loses it on me. Yeah. Why would you

53:50

want to do that? I said, mom, I

53:52

was 19 years old, it doesn't matter. Are

53:54

you stupid? I said, oh, my dad was

53:56

right. Don't you tell your mother nothing. So

53:59

you go, you go to New York, kind

54:01

of jacked up. Yeah. The American Academy, I

54:03

start working right when I get out of

54:05

there. Where did you move to? Where did

54:07

you live? In New York? I lived on

54:09

86 of Riverside, and then I lived on

54:11

72. Yeah, always uptown. And so you got

54:13

the American Academy? I was at the American

54:15

Academy and realized that it started working right

54:17

away. With who were you working with over

54:20

there? I started, well I got a gig

54:22

thanks to Rick Nissita, my original agent, with

54:24

CA William Warsaw. Was that Bill Esper's, was

54:26

that Bill Esper's, was at the neighborhood playoffs,

54:28

I think, neighborhood playoffs, yeah. So who was

54:30

your guy? Okay, so I'm at the American

54:32

Academy, I'm with a Tony Award winning play,

54:34

right out of the, right out of the

54:36

game. Right out of the gate. Sticks and

54:38

Bones, David Rave. Oh, Rave. Uh-huh. Yeah. I

54:41

don't know that one. What's that one about?

54:43

It's about Vietnam. It's Ozzy and Harriet. It's

54:45

a black comedy while Vietnam was going on.

54:47

Because he did... Who did streamers? That's Rabe.

54:49

That is Rabe. I did that too. Yeah,

54:51

dude. I did that when it came to

54:53

New York and Nichols put me in it.

54:55

Oh my god. My Nichols remained another sort

54:57

of godfather to my career and great friend.

54:59

So you're hanging out, you're dealing with Ray

55:02

because he's work shopping it too and he's

55:04

there or what? No, no, I just go

55:06

audition for it. It's going to Broadway. Joe

55:08

Pap is there. Yeah. I realize I know

55:10

enough that I don't know enough. Yeah. And

55:12

then Uda Hagen's book, Respect for Acting, comes

55:14

down. Yeah. And I, because I don't know

55:16

the tentacles of how, or the process of,

55:18

or just the process of self-examination. Sure. As

55:20

an actor. Right. How deep you got to

55:23

go, how deep you don't have to go.

55:25

And there is a limit, because you don't

55:27

want to be put it in your head.

55:29

It's, because you put it in your head.

55:31

So I go audition for Uda, she rejects

55:33

me. And then I go, okay man, I

55:35

don't know, I haven't, no, no, no, no.

55:37

What are you doing in the room? What

55:39

are you doing in the room? Before the

55:41

guy comes in with a gun, before the

55:43

girlfriend comes in and says, I hate you,

55:46

what are you doing in that, what are

55:48

you doing in that, what are you doing

55:50

in that, what are you doing in that

55:52

room, what are you doing in that, in

55:54

a close-up? Can't you have that guy like

55:56

wash the carbine before he puts it in

55:58

anything? Yeah. And you could see actors who

56:00

are brilliant at it. Maybe the most brilliant

56:02

at it is is Brando. Yeah. It ain't

56:04

nobody like him. Yeah. But what are you

56:07

doing in the room? So I think he's

56:09

good with the fidgeting. Yeah. There's nobody like

56:11

the fidgeting. No. It's like what Dustin said

56:13

about him. There's nothing. See the scene with

56:15

maximum shell in the young lions. When he

56:17

goes to see maximum shell and after he's

56:19

been shot, see that man. Yes, dude, when

56:21

I learned that the scene at the opening

56:23

of the godfather, where he's talking to the

56:25

undertaker, right, that that cat wasn't, it was

56:28

just around. Yeah. So that fucking cat. Well

56:30

for whatever reason climbed up on Brandon I

56:32

know man, and he's just like you think

56:34

that day You think that guy doesn't know

56:36

what to do in a room? Yeah, the

56:38

cat man How about the glove scene with

56:40

even where he's sane and on the waterfront?

56:42

He goes, sits on the swing, he takes

56:44

her clothes, she drops her glove, puts her,

56:46

that's his invention. So what are you doing

56:49

in that room? Anyway, I go back to

56:51

Uda Hagen, I audition, I get in her

56:53

class, and I get the streamers, I get

56:55

a bunch of plays, and then I roll

56:57

to become a member of the actor's studio

56:59

under the Aegis of Kazan, not Lee, but

57:01

Lee was great, but sort of a Kazan

57:03

guy. Yeah, Kazan was there. Kazan would take

57:05

over the acting unit and also you do

57:07

a final audit. So Walter Kazan? Where is

57:10

he at that point? 70. 70 years old.

57:12

So he's made all the movies and now

57:14

he's given back. Yeah, now he's given back.

57:16

Right. He's given back to the director's unit.

57:18

If he ain't there, he'll run the actors.

57:20

Yeah. But the judges into that audition were

57:22

fierce man. I mean, you know, you know,

57:24

you get... Eli Wallach, you know, and... But

57:26

you got in. Yeah, and I got in,

57:28

unanimously, and I did a couple of improvises

57:31

with Kazan and Mindblower. Yeah. I mean, to

57:33

do a 15-minute improv with a guy. Why

57:35

was it mindblower? Because the guy had a

57:37

sense of what you wanted and what time,

57:39

place, character circumstances defined. Yeah. And that's the

57:41

method. Yeah. And how to keep it living.

57:43

Better than anyone that I've ever met and

57:45

everybody gives him homage. I mean Lev met

57:47

did yeah, Nichols did yeah, no, no, no

57:49

goes Al will you know, I mean they

57:52

just go like okay that guy had a

57:54

sense of Reality and he comes out of

57:56

the group theater, which is the Russian which

57:58

is Korman. Yeah, and oh deaths. Yeah, oh

58:00

deaths. Oh deaths Oh, oh, oh, oh, wow.

58:02

What a gift, huh? Yeah, well, sweet smell

58:04

of success. Yeah, the You know, I became

58:06

sort of obsessed. Didn't, Elliot because his hand

58:08

did, he did face in the crowd, didn't

58:10

he? Yeah, just watch that again. How do

58:13

you get that at Andy Griffith? Do you

58:15

know, that was? Well, do you know, the

58:17

story he tells about, he was not, he

58:19

didn't want Andy Griffith at all. I think

58:21

he was in sardies and... agent

58:23

brought Andy Griffith to

58:25

him and Kazan, second,

58:27

I'm paraphrasing this thing,

58:29

but he's thinking, how

58:31

can I get out

58:34

of here? This guy's

58:36

like wrong and goes

58:38

to the bathroom as

58:40

an excuse and Griffith

58:42

accosted him in the

58:44

kitchen coming through the

58:46

bathroom and goes into

58:48

this rant about I'm

58:50

the guy, I'm the

58:52

guy, I'm the guy.

58:55

You know, Mr. Kazan,

58:57

you don't want anybody,

58:59

just by like firing

59:01

up in this... He

59:03

needed to get it

59:05

out of them. And

59:07

then he said he

59:09

is the guy. And

59:11

sometimes, sometimes you're sitting

59:13

with a guy at

59:16

a table that's not

59:18

the guy. You ever

59:20

seen that weird movie

59:22

that, like I got

59:24

obsessed with this very

59:26

late Kazan movie that

59:28

no one knows about,

59:30

that it was his

59:32

son's script, and they

59:34

shot it at the

59:37

house in Connecticut. It's

59:39

called The Visitor. Yeah.

59:41

Well, Jimmy Woods. Yeah.

59:43

What the fuck? I

59:45

know. That movie's nuts.

59:47

I know, man. And

59:49

Jimmy Woods was one

59:51

of my oldest pals

59:53

also. These are all

59:55

pals to me, man.

59:58

I came up with

1:00:00

these cats. Yeah. Well,

1:00:02

what do you know

1:00:04

about that movie? Anything?

1:00:06

No. I know nothing

1:00:08

that It was his

1:00:10

son's script, and he

1:00:12

shot it there. And

1:00:14

it was... Because it

1:00:16

was like, it was

1:00:19

almost like an attempt

1:00:21

to... You know, it

1:00:23

looks like it was

1:00:25

shot, you know, on

1:00:27

a very low budget,

1:00:29

and it was a

1:00:31

very... Of the time,

1:00:33

it was a very

1:00:35

70s movie. Yeah. had

1:00:37

existential weird fucking business.

1:00:40

It was the same

1:00:42

story that Casualties of

1:00:44

War came out of.

1:00:46

Yeah. It was like

1:00:48

the sequel to De

1:00:50

Palma's Casualties of War

1:00:52

when those guys come

1:00:54

find that motherfucker. Yeah.

1:00:56

And I was just...

1:00:58

When did you see

1:01:01

it? How long ago?

1:01:03

Not long. Like a

1:01:05

year ago. I'm going

1:01:07

to go see it

1:01:09

again there because I

1:01:11

ain't seen it since

1:01:13

it happened. And I

1:01:15

got the Kazan biography,

1:01:17

and I even reached

1:01:19

out to... I don't

1:01:22

know. I got a

1:01:24

little obsessed, and like

1:01:26

I wanted to find

1:01:28

out about, you know,

1:01:30

what the story was

1:01:32

because I think they

1:01:34

shot it at the

1:01:36

house. They did. Yeah.

1:01:38

But apparently that house

1:01:40

is like in disrepair,

1:01:43

and it's just I

1:01:45

talked to some people

1:01:47

that knew the family.

1:01:49

I don't know. I

1:01:51

just became obsessed with

1:01:53

the darkness of that

1:01:55

movie. It seemed very

1:01:57

like an outlier for

1:01:59

him. Yeah. Well, anyway,

1:02:01

that's... New York gave me is that all

1:02:04

those people and the method and a process

1:02:06

and gifts and some great directors. And how

1:02:08

would you get the first movie? Oh, the

1:02:10

first movie I did with Cliff Robertson

1:02:12

called Man Without a Country is

1:02:14

a TV movie. Yeah, five lines.

1:02:16

It just wouldn't audition for it.

1:02:18

So you're just working. Yeah, but

1:02:20

the first thing I did of

1:02:22

substance was I was in doing

1:02:24

I was doing streamers and Gene

1:02:26

Reynolds and Alan Burns the guys

1:02:28

who started Mary Taylor Morrison were

1:02:30

starting this they offered me this

1:02:32

role based on a real guy

1:02:34

at that Showtime later did a

1:02:36

movie of an Orthodox Jew disappeared

1:02:38

out of high school and resurfaced

1:02:40

in New York as the head

1:02:42

of the neo-Nazi American Party on

1:02:45

George Lincoln party. George Lincoln Rockwell

1:02:47

is the head of the United

1:02:49

States American Party. This guy, true

1:02:51

story, is a guy who was

1:02:54

an orthodox Jew, bullied, and then

1:02:56

disappears for two years and resurfaces

1:02:58

under a different name. Yeah. Working

1:03:00

for George Lincoln Rockwell. How about

1:03:03

that for a victim? It's like

1:03:05

Stephen Miller. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want

1:03:07

to I don't want to pull it. Shot,

1:03:09

but yeah, okay, so they offered me that and

1:03:11

Rick said they don't really offer your stuff to

1:03:13

come out to LA And I researched it at

1:03:15

the Fifth Avenue library, and I thought oh my

1:03:17

god I would do this So I did it

1:03:19

with me and Brian Denny. He went to do

1:03:21

it and that was the first thing I did

1:03:23

and out of that I got a movie What's

1:03:25

that called? It's the second it's the Lou

1:03:27

Grant first season of Lou Grant. It's

1:03:30

the second episode and okay get what

1:03:32

it's called. Okay. Okay. Okay. Got it.

1:03:34

Yeah. Yeah I mean I was friends

1:03:36

with Ed Asner forever who was one

1:03:38

of the great cats. Oh yeah, he's

1:03:40

great. I talked to him. Oh, what

1:03:43

a dude. Yeah, real history, man. Yeah,

1:03:45

yeah, real, real, uh, old school, Jewish

1:03:47

socialist. What a compassionate dude, though, man.

1:03:49

Great. Yeah. And, and then when do

1:03:51

you, like, how does, because I mean,

1:03:54

like, I remember the adventures of Buckle

1:03:56

Gonzi. Oh yeah. Yeah. Can you tell

1:03:58

me what it's about what it? Well, you

1:04:00

know what I remember? And it's always

1:04:02

in my head on a fairly regular

1:04:05

basis, wherever you go. There you are.

1:04:07

Yeah, man. Yeah. But you know, people

1:04:09

forget the head to that, the heads

1:04:11

to that is don't be mean. Yeah.

1:04:13

Hey, don't be mean. That's that's the

1:04:16

point there you are because remember no

1:04:18

matter where you go there you are

1:04:20

Yeah And those are all pals to

1:04:22

this day Lloyd and let go and

1:04:25

gold bloom. Yeah, well it's kind of

1:04:27

an amazing I guess you would call

1:04:29

it a cult movie It's become a

1:04:31

cult movie we It's become a unique

1:04:33

film. It was indemnified into the Lincoln

1:04:36

Center library about some years ago and

1:04:38

Lithko and I put on a tuxedo

1:04:40

and with the celebrator Yeah He said

1:04:42

what are you gonna say is I

1:04:45

don't know. I don't know what to

1:04:47

say and the guy introduced it was

1:04:49

Kevin Smith comes out in a New

1:04:51

York Rangers Sure, hockey jersey. Sure talks

1:04:53

about it for 30 minutes about its

1:04:56

racial divide with with blacks and rednecks

1:04:58

and the social drip down I mean

1:05:00

it doesn't for it doesn't feed you

1:05:02

any genre and it sort of plunges

1:05:05

you into the middle of and it

1:05:07

defies It's action, science, right? And let's

1:05:09

go, keeps looking at me going, I

1:05:11

didn't know that, did you know that?

1:05:13

So we don't know what it is,

1:05:16

but Dennis Haysbert said it's about love,

1:05:18

okay, I'll take that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:05:20

I just had an amazing time doing

1:05:22

it, and I'm so glad those cats

1:05:24

are still friends, right? Yeah, I always

1:05:27

wonder about that, you know, every time

1:05:29

I talk to actors, you know, I

1:05:31

still hang out those guys, and they

1:05:33

never do. It's a, the cliche that

1:05:36

I saw when I was, Olivier said

1:05:38

the best thing that anything you can

1:05:40

get out of this theater film is

1:05:42

love. Yeah. You know, it ain't the

1:05:44

glitz and the glamour. Yeah. It's love.

1:05:47

And I think it wouldn't. And truth?

1:05:49

Well, I think love is true. Yeah,

1:05:51

sure. Okay. I think those are unanimous.

1:05:53

Okay. So when I, when you're reading

1:05:56

that at 23 and your eyes are

1:05:58

on the gold, and your eyes are

1:06:00

on like, yes, to do good work,

1:06:02

and to be recognized by your peers,

1:06:04

but I'll sort of make a buck.

1:06:07

Really the best thing you take out

1:06:09

of this is love. Come on, man.

1:06:11

It's a little touchy feely for me,

1:06:13

man. I already just came out of

1:06:15

this love generation shit, man. I mean,

1:06:18

New York, I want to get something

1:06:20

harder than that. Now, it's the truth.

1:06:22

The best thing that ever happened to

1:06:24

me in the entire. my career doesn't

1:06:27

matter the accolades yeah the money sure

1:06:29

fine okay great but the love the

1:06:31

friendships the people that I retain that

1:06:33

I can say thank you to are

1:06:35

really the gold well yeah and all

1:06:38

those you know you talk about nickels

1:06:40

you talk about the met talk about

1:06:42

you know they gave me gifts I

1:06:44

can't even because I can't speak to

1:06:47

those gifts or udehagen or what and

1:06:49

udehagen gave me those people gave me

1:06:51

not only the gifts of the epitomies

1:06:53

and the as an actor. Yeah. But

1:06:55

also the epitomies of living. Yeah. Living

1:06:58

your truth. Yeah. Well, I mean, I

1:07:00

give you a kid, can I give

1:07:02

you a case of point? Yeah. Okay.

1:07:04

I'm doing a scene for Uda in

1:07:07

her graduate class from Franny and Zoe.

1:07:09

Yeah. And Uda was great at picking

1:07:11

out scenes from books. Yeah. And go

1:07:13

do that. Because you could create the

1:07:15

circumstance, time, time, place, whatever yourself. Yeah.

1:07:18

and not necessarily dictated like a script.

1:07:20

So I'm doing it with a really

1:07:22

good actress and I'm doing the part

1:07:24

Zoe. I'm about 26, so he's supposed

1:07:26

to be 25 in it. He's a

1:07:29

commercial actor, your mom is painting in

1:07:31

the apartment. You know, Franny, give us

1:07:33

back and the brother Seymour, it killed

1:07:35

himself. You know, if you read JD

1:07:38

Salinger, then she, and she's reciting this

1:07:40

Jesus prayer over and over again and

1:07:42

they get in this rebop about. what

1:07:44

is important and what's not important. At

1:07:46

the end of the scene, Eudis says,

1:07:49

Peter, I want to ask you something,

1:07:51

you know, what's your objective here? I

1:07:53

said, to save my sister from killing

1:07:55

herself. She goes, yeah, right. Why? And

1:07:58

I said, because... because

1:08:00

she doesn't like herself. Who is

1:08:02

sitting there with a cigarette? Look

1:08:05

at me. She says, why else?

1:08:07

I said, well, I don't know

1:08:09

what you mean. I'm here to

1:08:12

save her. She says, why are

1:08:14

you trying to save your sister?

1:08:16

Again, I'm thinking, what am I

1:08:19

missing? Yeah. I said, because she

1:08:21

doesn't like herself and she reaches

1:08:24

across the desk and yells, and

1:08:26

neither do you. That loud. And

1:08:28

I'm like crushed. I go, oh

1:08:31

my God, man. She said, she

1:08:33

turns to this class. She says,

1:08:35

there's no hegemony here. You know,

1:08:38

there's no, if you, if you

1:08:40

are infused with some sort of

1:08:42

empathy, compassion, la la, you must

1:08:45

know the drama's drama and it's

1:08:47

based on your own bullshit that

1:08:49

you are trying to solve about

1:08:52

you. I think, oh man,

1:08:54

did that put my head in the sand?

1:08:56

And I came over with that mark as

1:08:58

a transformation man. Yeah, it was a good

1:09:00

moment, right? Oh shit. But sometimes, you know,

1:09:02

it was slap in the face. Yeah. Because

1:09:04

I never read that book about Zoe trying

1:09:07

to save himself too. Yeah. Yeah, they are.

1:09:09

They're panicked about that brother. Yeah. So that

1:09:11

was a big one. Huge. So when do

1:09:13

you hit the wall with the drugs? I

1:09:15

hit the wall with the drugs the first

1:09:17

time when I left Texas. Yeah. I left

1:09:19

Texas, I'm going to New York, okay man,

1:09:21

I can't do that shit no more. I

1:09:23

don't. I never like pot, I was always

1:09:25

a go faster guy, I never like to

1:09:27

slow down shit, yeah. What we called, Texas

1:09:29

slobber drugs. Yeah. You sit there with your

1:09:31

head nodding on your thing. I was always

1:09:34

a go fast guy. Yeah, I was a

1:09:36

bad balance it a little with the booze.

1:09:38

Didn't I go to New York and New

1:09:40

York is great, you know, I'm drink some

1:09:42

beers, hang out to the actors. My dad

1:09:44

said before I left by the way when

1:09:46

he gave me that money. He said, give

1:09:48

you a cheap... but by stay out of

1:09:50

bars. And I think that stayed with me,

1:09:52

but. I didn't stay out of Boston. I

1:09:54

was buzzed. Then I make a movie, then

1:09:56

I get some glitz, then I get some

1:09:58

glamour, and Studio 54 opens. And there's an

1:10:01

amazing documentary about Studio 54 that came out

1:10:03

about three years ago, and it was the

1:10:05

very first sort of interpersonal, harangue, intercultural, inter-gender

1:10:07

thing. If you wanted to go to a

1:10:09

Cuban bar, you want to go salsa there,

1:10:11

you want to go black bar, you want

1:10:13

to go black bar, you want to that

1:10:15

you want to that you want to that?

1:10:17

You wanted to pick up to pick up

1:10:19

to pick up the hot chicks to pick

1:10:21

up the hot chicks to pick up the

1:10:23

hot chicks, because the hot chicks, because the

1:10:25

hot chicks, because the hot chicks, because the

1:10:27

hot chicks, because the hot chicks, because the

1:10:30

hot chicks, because the hot chicks, because the

1:10:32

hot chicks, because they hang out of gay

1:10:34

bars, because they hang out of gay bars.

1:10:36

You went to that. All of a sudden

1:10:38

Studio 54 was everybody. Everybody together hanging. And

1:10:40

therein was for me, and no offense to

1:10:42

the Studio 54, because I loved it, was

1:10:44

cocaine. And so cocaine is my deal. And

1:10:46

a friend of mine said to me, another

1:10:48

sober cat, he's about 10 years old, and

1:10:50

he says, you ever realize you, no matter

1:10:52

how much money you had in your pocket,

1:10:54

no matter how many times maybe you would

1:10:57

go to LA, or whatever, that you were

1:10:59

an outlaw? The James gang on the run,

1:11:01

I go, what are you talking about? I

1:11:03

said, weren't you always looking over your shoulder

1:11:05

for a cop? Or somebody? Yeah. Or whatever.

1:11:07

Yeah. When you had that shit in your

1:11:09

pocket. I said, I never thought about that.

1:11:11

I always thought I was impervious. You know,

1:11:13

to get to bus. Yeah. Because I wasn't

1:11:15

that guy. Yeah, yeah. He was gonna buy

1:11:17

it on the street. I was gonna buy

1:11:19

it from high end. Yeah, yeah. I don't

1:11:21

know what your jam was, but my jam

1:11:23

was going to like the guy was the

1:11:26

accredited coke. I used to have a guy

1:11:28

down the lower side called himself Hammerhead. Oh

1:11:30

shit. Of course, that's

1:11:32

his name. Yeah. He's an interesting guy.

1:11:34

But anyway, so that was it and

1:11:36

people started dying and then going to

1:11:39

jail and then the light went off

1:11:41

on me for 1983 and it was.

1:11:43

That was the end? Yeah. It's so

1:11:46

funny when you come from Speed and

1:11:48

you do Blow, it's kind of slumming.

1:11:50

Yeah, but the beautiful thing about it

1:11:53

is that speed, the speed I was

1:11:55

doing, which was real deal liquid, was

1:11:57

on operation. Yeah. That was like going

1:12:00

to truly like going to the doctor,

1:12:02

like going to the doctor. Yeah, you

1:12:04

had to get the syringe and the

1:12:06

thing and then, blah, blah, blah, blah.

1:12:09

And blow is all of a sudden

1:12:11

just, wow, you could just kind of

1:12:13

travel on the subway with that shit.

1:12:16

So, yeah. It was, it was, um,

1:12:18

movable. Yeah, sure. It was a movable

1:12:20

thing. Yeah, the different little containers, the

1:12:23

yellow vial, you had a little thing.

1:12:25

It was a, I was partial to

1:12:27

the pen cap. Yes. Well, you know,

1:12:30

that's why I couldn't, I couldn't, I

1:12:32

couldn't, the big pen caps were perfect.

1:12:34

I could not listen to all the

1:12:37

quinionas thing. Yeah. It had me so

1:12:39

back into the jam, not by the

1:12:41

word about myself, but so many people

1:12:44

of legend and so for their friends

1:12:46

who died. Yeah. And so I have

1:12:48

not finished that episode of years, but

1:12:50

I will. So when you do robocop

1:12:53

your sober? Yeah. Because that's flat, that's

1:12:55

for years. Training for the New York

1:12:57

Marathon, vegetarian, sober. Oh, all in. Totally,

1:13:00

all in, Moni Yekim, mime, just the

1:13:02

complete physical nose of the grindstone. Oh

1:13:04

yeah. So much so that I would,

1:13:07

on Saturdays I would go dancing and

1:13:09

on Sundays I would run 20 miles

1:13:11

for the... You gotta get that dopamine

1:13:14

somewhere. Yeah. Yes, but like even Kuanioni

1:13:16

has said... That replacement of exercise and

1:13:18

adobe mean from exercise and better eating

1:13:21

is better. It's good. Yeah, I do

1:13:23

it. I'm in life as manageable. Yeah.

1:13:25

You know, you're looking good, man. How

1:13:27

old are you? 61. No, you're a

1:13:30

stud. Yeah, I'm doing all right. Yeah.

1:13:32

Only thing I've got going now is

1:13:34

these nicotine pouches and they're fucking. Well,

1:13:37

you're a cigarette smoke? No, I was,

1:13:39

sure. Yeah. You? Cigars. Yeah, I did

1:13:41

those too. I still do them. Yeah,

1:13:44

I'm nicotine motherfucker. These things, like I,

1:13:46

you know, I go on and off

1:13:48

of that shit, but I don't smoke

1:13:51

nothing no more. Yeah, well, I don't

1:13:53

know. I got to smoke a cigar,

1:13:55

otherwise I'm a cremant. What do you

1:13:58

like? What's your cigar? That is a

1:14:00

couple cubano's and a couple of... I

1:14:02

like those boulevard cubano's. Yeah, the strong

1:14:04

ones. Yeah, the great ones. Yeah, yeah.

1:14:07

Yeah. Yeah, that's if I go to

1:14:09

Canada, that's what I do. Get those

1:14:11

boulevard. You still smoke them? No, not

1:14:14

in a while. That lost the taste

1:14:16

for them, thank God. Okay, that's good.

1:14:18

At some point, I was just sort

1:14:21

of like, ugh. Yeah, so Robocopa did

1:14:23

that was sober. Yeah. And that was

1:14:25

a life changanger, right? It was great.

1:14:28

I'm glad I did it and I'm

1:14:30

glad I left it. Yeah. Was that,

1:14:32

but was that like, did you see

1:14:35

yourself doing that? Was there, were you

1:14:37

like, I don't know about this movie

1:14:39

or? No, I, no, no, I'd seen

1:14:41

Verhoven. That's the deal. Once one is

1:14:44

immersed. I turned out gigs for money.

1:14:46

I turned out gigs for money and

1:14:48

I was just talked to him. Yeah.

1:14:51

And that was that. I said, listen

1:14:53

man, you're all about doing a personal

1:14:55

story with an operatic background like Chekhov.

1:14:58

Yeah. And we started that. Yeah. Chekhov

1:15:00

called his plays comedies. Why? Because somebody's

1:15:02

picking Lind out of the naval like

1:15:05

Seinfeld, you know, while a revolution's going

1:15:07

on. Yeah. Outside the world is falling

1:15:09

apart. And Chalkoff was writing plays about

1:15:12

people with their own little personal agenda.

1:15:14

I like this. I like this. I

1:15:16

like this. Yeah, and that's why you

1:15:18

call them comedies because they couldn't, they

1:15:21

can't see the forest for the trees.

1:15:23

Because it's a, there's a built-in irony.

1:15:25

Totally, like, what you're saying, like, I'm

1:15:28

just looking at my iPhone. And what's

1:15:30

wrong with that? Yeah, what's wrong with

1:15:32

that? Yeah, what's wrong with that? That's

1:15:35

sort of where I'm at. That's helpful.

1:15:37

Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. If you

1:15:39

got nothing out of that, you're going

1:15:42

to take that one? I'm going to

1:15:44

take that one. Okay. Let's talk about

1:15:46

the relationship. with Miles. What did that

1:15:49

start? Okay, so my mother plays, it

1:15:51

gets me weep because, you know, when

1:15:53

Miles bequeathed me, his self-portrait's on my

1:15:55

wall. There's a great painter, painter Lekendinsky.

1:15:58

And my mother turned me on to

1:16:00

us. And I didn't, like I said,

1:16:02

I was 11 years old. It's in

1:16:05

this diary, by the way. Which is

1:16:07

only 5,000 words. And I hear a

1:16:09

boat that's leaving soon for New York,

1:16:12

from Porgy and Bess, from Gil Evans,

1:16:14

man. And it sends me, man. I

1:16:16

become Miles Attict. And then I don't

1:16:19

ever want to meet him. I know

1:16:21

Herbie, I know Wayne, I know all

1:16:23

these guys, played with him, played with

1:16:26

him, and all these, and all these.

1:16:28

You know, and also he's nuts. And

1:16:30

then I'm sitting, but you know, but

1:16:32

he's Miles. Yeah, sure. He's miles. Yeah.

1:16:35

And then I'm sitting at the, the

1:16:37

Roeb Cup too. I'm sitting in her

1:16:39

mouth, most of the Magic Club, the

1:16:42

owner, her most of each Magic Club

1:16:44

is, Mr. Davis, he's expecting you backstage.

1:16:46

And I'm sitting with the robo team,

1:16:49

the people that make the suits. Why

1:16:51

you eat the comedy? Why you eat

1:16:53

the comedy club? Because he's. Yeah. Okay.

1:16:56

Yeah. I go to see him all

1:16:58

the time. Yeah. But I'm not gonna

1:17:00

meet him. I'm not gonna hang with

1:17:03

him. Yeah. I'll hang with Herbie. Herby's

1:17:05

one of the great guys are saying.

1:17:07

Wayne, all his guys. Man. So miles

1:17:09

waiting for you. Yeah. You gotta know

1:17:12

something. There's a friend of mine who's

1:17:14

gone, treat Williams, a wonderful, wonderful guy.

1:17:16

Yeah. I go, you know what treat...

1:17:19

You're right. It's basically in my soul,

1:17:21

my want to be thing. So hanging

1:17:23

out. You know, it's like that Terry

1:17:26

Southern story. What? Red dirt marijuana? Yeah,

1:17:28

it's in there. Yeah. What's what is

1:17:30

it? You know, where the guy's just

1:17:33

kissing up to the black jazz musicians.

1:17:35

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's me. That's me.

1:17:37

So because that story call is good.

1:17:40

It's comes from Red dirt marijuana marijuana

1:17:42

or other tastes. Yeah. collection. Yeah, so

1:17:44

I go backstage and there's Miles and

1:17:46

Miles obviously knows he has a sucker

1:17:49

walking in the door because every time

1:17:51

somebody interviews me like yourself or anybody

1:17:53

else about a movie I always switch

1:17:56

it to jazz or music or rock

1:17:58

or something musical yeah so he knows

1:18:00

that this guy is a fan. So

1:18:03

he's coming out as doing, he goes,

1:18:05

hey, robot cops are down, we start

1:18:07

talking about poor your best, talk about

1:18:10

my mother, his mother's got the same,

1:18:12

his wife's sister got the same name

1:18:14

as my mother, Dorothy, it's a person

1:18:17

who saved him from the first addiction,

1:18:19

and so forth, we talk about the

1:18:21

first tune, and then I'm with him,

1:18:23

every gig. He invites me to his

1:18:26

birthday party, he invites me to this

1:18:28

gig, that gig, and I'm sort of

1:18:30

the sort of the white token, the

1:18:33

white token movie guy, movie guy, movie

1:18:35

guy, movie guy, movie guy, uh... hanging

1:18:37

with him and you know i played

1:18:40

in a trio with uh... juff goblum

1:18:42

played since buckaroo yeah at a guy

1:18:44

named peter harris who played with hornsby

1:18:47

and a great couple of and we

1:18:49

were playing people's livies room. Miles is

1:18:51

the guy who said that wouldn't even

1:18:54

go, goblum. When are you going to

1:18:56

goblum, we're going to get out of

1:18:58

them fucking living rooms. It gets yourself

1:19:00

a band. I said, Miles, you know,

1:19:03

this is in New Orleans. So Miles,

1:19:05

we're, like, we're actors. Yeah. You know,

1:19:07

we're, like, we're actors. Yeah. You know,

1:19:10

we're, like, we're actors. Yeah. You know,

1:19:12

Miles, we're, we're, like, we're actors, we're

1:19:14

actors, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're,

1:19:17

we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're,

1:19:19

we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're,

1:19:21

we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're,

1:19:24

we're, we're, we're, we're, we And slowly,

1:19:26

and then Woody, I did Mighty Aphrodite

1:19:28

and Woody had done that with Andy

1:19:31

Hall with him, and Woody said, just

1:19:33

find a place, it's got no business,

1:19:35

and go in and say you'll play.

1:19:37

And Jeff and I, Peter and I,

1:19:40

Peter, started, and the rest is history,

1:19:42

but meanwhile, I'm with Miles. I'm with

1:19:44

Miles, I'm with Miles, and then the

1:19:47

wonderful Bob Thiel Jr. as a musical

1:19:49

supervisor and his father was Bob Thiel,

1:19:51

the producer for Coltrane. Yeah. and all

1:19:54

kinds of people played with him right

1:19:56

there. So is this a, was he

1:19:58

sick? I see I, yeah he was,

1:20:01

but I didn't know. Yeah. Because I

1:20:03

just. been hanging with him. And then

1:20:05

he said, hang, he would hold me

1:20:08

by the shirt sleeve. And I'd say,

1:20:10

Miles, I got two hours. I'd say,

1:20:12

Miles, I gotta go. He says, now

1:20:15

we're gonna go talk to Mark Mann.

1:20:17

And then I'd walk over with him

1:20:19

and I'd call my mother. And my

1:20:21

mother was like, so beautiful, man. She

1:20:24

said, Peter, you're with your only fucking

1:20:26

idol who wants you to hang. Where

1:20:28

are you going to go? You know,

1:20:31

what's better than hanging with miles? I

1:20:33

mean, what in life? Where do you

1:20:35

want to go? Have a big... What

1:20:38

are you going to do? So Bob

1:20:40

and I and his wife Amy Cantor,

1:20:42

wonderful singer and daughter of Jay Kant,

1:20:45

and we walk outside and as a

1:20:47

kid in a wheelchair, been waiting for

1:20:49

hours, he's on an autograph, we walked

1:20:52

to his car, and he's the glitzing

1:20:54

glamour part of it, and he said,

1:20:56

Where are you going? I said I'm

1:20:58

going to Paris to make a movie.

1:21:01

And we had the same year Ferrari.

1:21:03

You and Miles. Yeah. And he hated

1:21:05

it is. And I love mine. We're

1:21:08

always talking about it. And he said,

1:21:10

drive a Ferrari for me. You're going

1:21:12

through New York? I said, yeah. In

1:21:15

New York, we live a block away

1:21:17

from each other. Yeah. It's a drama

1:21:19

Ferrari for me. I said, I'm not

1:21:22

going to have time. And he looked

1:21:24

at me like I was the biggest

1:21:26

dick on planet Earth Earth. Just cocked

1:21:29

his head and he squitted at me

1:21:31

and said, make time. And got in

1:21:33

a car was gone. And Bob said,

1:21:35

that's pretty too prophetic words out of,

1:21:38

we didn't know his last words, those

1:21:40

are the last words to me. And

1:21:42

then he's dead. And then I get

1:21:45

a fax in Paris that he's dead.

1:21:47

I didn't know he was sick. I

1:21:49

just fucking weep. Like we all weep

1:21:52

when we lose someone. A weep weep

1:21:54

weep weep and then about three days

1:21:56

later I get this thing from his

1:21:59

art publisher that is is self-portrait which

1:22:01

I wanted yeah is going to go

1:22:03

to me But they want taxes, state

1:22:06

taxes. And my mother calls me up.

1:22:08

And man, my mother, man, you know,

1:22:10

sometimes you talk about somebody like his

1:22:12

family. And you hate him when you're

1:22:15

12, and miss him when you're 60.

1:22:17

And my mother says, what's the deal?

1:22:19

Miles is dead. Yeah, she says, I

1:22:22

know. She says, well, he willed me

1:22:24

to self-portrait. So what's the problem? They

1:22:26

want $55, $55. And

1:22:29

as his pause, and she says,

1:22:31

I turned you on to him

1:22:33

when you were nine. I said,

1:22:35

I didn't like him when I

1:22:37

was nine. She says, yeah, you

1:22:39

did, but you just didn't know

1:22:41

it. So I turned him on

1:22:44

to you. You loved him since

1:22:46

you were nine. Now, do you

1:22:48

want to be 80 years old,

1:22:50

looking at a blank place on

1:22:52

your wall, where your real only

1:22:54

artistic inspiration? But you didn't have

1:22:56

$55,000. And she goes, so, another

1:22:58

Uda Hagen, sell something, God damn

1:23:01

it, and slams the phone, and

1:23:03

hangs it down, man, and I

1:23:05

go, okay. So I sold some

1:23:07

shit, and the, and the pain,

1:23:09

he's there, my wife says if

1:23:11

there's a fire in this building,

1:23:13

which there almost was, that pain

1:23:15

he's going to be on the

1:23:18

ground before your wife and kid.

1:23:20

And I go, you know, maybe.

1:23:22

And Miles is, look, you got

1:23:24

one, everybody's. artistic light that ignited

1:23:26

you or showed you it sounds

1:23:28

hyperbolic, but there's somebody if they're

1:23:30

gonna have a life or direction

1:23:32

that's bleeding the way, don't you

1:23:34

think? Yeah, yeah, who is it

1:23:37

for you? Hmm. Name one. Well,

1:23:39

in terms of, there's people that

1:23:41

I go back to, like when

1:23:43

I was kid, you know, comitically,

1:23:45

you know, There was some sort

1:23:47

of truth that comics had an

1:23:49

ability to to kind of like

1:23:51

render You know to still to

1:23:54

distill horror. Yeah, like Lenny Bruce?

1:23:56

Well, Lenny, like, yeah, you got

1:23:58

to put him in context. But,

1:24:00

you know, there's something about Richard

1:24:02

Pryor, you know, obviously, but mostly,

1:24:04

like, the old Jewish guys, you

1:24:06

know, like, you know, Buddy Hackett,

1:24:08

Jackie Vernon, there were guys, like,

1:24:11

somehow or another from him. What

1:24:13

about Myron Cohen? Well, that's a

1:24:15

little old, but yeah, I mean,

1:24:17

I didn't know him when I

1:24:19

was a kid, but when I'd

1:24:21

watched comics, they somehow or another

1:24:23

made sense of the world for

1:24:25

me in a way that I

1:24:28

could understand and disarmed a lot

1:24:30

of things that were terrifying somehow.

1:24:32

And that was planted in me.

1:24:34

That it was some sort of

1:24:36

noble profession to be able to

1:24:38

take the big thing that's pressing

1:24:40

down on you in whatever way

1:24:42

and frame it in a way

1:24:44

where we all get relief. Yeah.

1:24:47

Yes. Or that it would disintegrate.

1:24:49

Yeah, yeah, prior was like that

1:24:51

to me. I think the prior

1:24:53

is maybe the guy, I cannot

1:24:55

stop listening to him, maybe. Yeah,

1:24:57

because it's pretty, it deepens as

1:24:59

you get older, you know, yeah,

1:25:01

yeah, and you know, I'm a

1:25:04

big, you know, Keith Richards guy,

1:25:06

but I always leave room for

1:25:08

him, but the guys that sort

1:25:10

of defined me, you know, were,

1:25:12

were these comedians that I felt,

1:25:14

you know, the moment of laughter.

1:25:16

because somebody knows what they're doing

1:25:18

is a pretty magic thing. You

1:25:21

know, unfortunately jokes don't hold up

1:25:23

like, like in a silent way.

1:25:25

But, uh, well some do though,

1:25:27

kind of. I mean, some, some

1:25:29

rants do, like a couple of

1:25:31

priors, rants do, and by the

1:25:33

way, has his shagets. Yeah. Myron

1:25:35

Cohen brought Borsh Belt humor to

1:25:37

the Tonight Show. I know. The

1:25:40

first time I ever heard it.

1:25:42

Yeah. And my mother was always

1:25:44

talking about it, you know, because

1:25:46

being in and around New York,

1:25:48

she knew the jam, but I

1:25:50

didn't. So I never knew what

1:25:52

the goof was. I mean, then

1:25:54

I watching Myron Cohen on Johnny

1:25:57

Carson. Sure. Yeah, yeah. And then,

1:25:59

talk about ex- exploding cliches. Yeah,

1:26:01

yeah. So that guy's a cornerstone.

1:26:03

Yeah, I got a few of

1:26:05

his records. Yeah, but there are

1:26:07

bits, like, you know, there are

1:26:09

moments where there was a guy

1:26:11

named Dan Vitali who was, you

1:26:13

know, a tortured guy, you know, got

1:26:16

sober, you know, he had a shot

1:26:18

on S&L, but you know, he blew

1:26:20

it because he liked to, you know,

1:26:23

smoke crack and do blow and drink,

1:26:25

and he was only there for a

1:26:27

minute. He was only there for a

1:26:30

minute. But you know, as a sober

1:26:32

guy, he used to do a joke.

1:26:34

And he'd be on stage. You go,

1:26:36

you know, I've hit bottom, folks. I've

1:26:39

hit bottom. You know, you know, when

1:26:41

you're in the gutter, you got an

1:26:43

empty fifth of vodka next to

1:26:45

you, a crack pipe, and you

1:26:47

can't wake up, you know. You

1:26:50

know, I know what the bottom

1:26:52

is. And he goes, but when

1:26:54

you hit bottom, you'd be surprised

1:26:56

at just how much you give

1:26:58

that four happens. So that kind

1:27:01

of thing, that's deep shit. I

1:27:03

hardly remember him, but I do. Yeah, he didn't have a

1:27:05

lot of, he didn't have a lot of profile and no

1:27:07

one really knew who he was, but he was around New

1:27:09

York when I went there after I hit the wall with

1:27:11

drugs. Oh man, that's beautiful though. Oh dude. And there's another

1:27:14

one around the drugs, like you know, kennison, who was a

1:27:16

monster. Oh, but he, but he was, he was, he was

1:27:18

a lot of blow with that guy. And there's another one

1:27:20

around the drugs, like, you know, like you know, like you

1:27:22

know, like you know, like you know, like you know, like

1:27:24

you know, and there, like you know, and there, and there,

1:27:27

and there's, and there's another, and there's another one, and there's

1:27:29

another one, like you know, like you know, you know, and

1:27:31

there's another one, you know, and there's another one, you

1:27:33

know, you know, you know, you know, you

1:27:35

know, you know, like, you know, you know,

1:27:37

But nonetheless, there's that bit where there's that

1:27:39

bit where that put the there's certain bits

1:27:41

like that You know How much give that

1:27:44

for has that open up a world of

1:27:46

like possibility of like poetry, right? But that

1:27:48

bit he does about Manson You know a

1:27:50

lot of people remember Sam for the you

1:27:52

know move to where the food is or

1:27:54

you know the you know the the stuff

1:27:57

about women the desert and whatever but his

1:27:59

bit about Manson is the fucking bit. Yeah,

1:28:01

that's the fucking bit. Like because he

1:28:03

was such a, you know, Kenison was

1:28:05

such a megal maniacal, fucking whack job.

1:28:07

You know, that like, the Manson story.

1:28:09

You know, he needed to take down

1:28:11

Manson because, you know, he... I'm sorry

1:28:13

for laughing, man. No, that's right. You

1:28:15

know, I'm talking to your listeners out

1:28:17

there, man. You say, is he actually

1:28:19

laughing about Sam Guinness and Charles Manson?

1:28:22

Yes, I am. Why wouldn't you? So,

1:28:24

but you know, the whole angle was

1:28:26

like, you know, he does this bit

1:28:28

about... There's a couple lines in it

1:28:30

where Manson's just listening to listen to

1:28:32

that, you just listen to that white

1:28:34

man. What was it? You would have

1:28:36

got the same message from the monkeys,

1:28:38

you fucking idiot. Let's train to Clarksville

1:28:40

Whitey. You know, so, but he does

1:28:42

a bit, it's on the first record,

1:28:44

the only record. Yeah, I remember. But

1:28:46

he says that he's like, he's like,

1:28:48

about the Manson murders. He goes, you

1:28:50

know, the guy feels sorry is four

1:28:52

is eight. Polish artists, Voichek, Vyschak, Vysowski,

1:28:55

you know, they found this guy, he'd

1:28:57

been stabbed like 20 times, shot twice,

1:28:59

you know, whatever, all these injuries, he

1:29:01

goes, you know, I'm sure this guy

1:29:03

was standing at the door, what the

1:29:05

Manson firm was, who even going, hey,

1:29:07

where are you going? You haven't stuck

1:29:09

a chainsaw in my ass, you fucker,

1:29:11

you know, and that like just, to

1:29:13

the entire event of whatever the mances

1:29:15

were. that because of of you know

1:29:17

Sam's warrior you know disposition around drugs

1:29:19

was it was just these fuckers couldn't

1:29:21

handle their high yeah and that's sort

1:29:23

of genius in a way because it

1:29:25

just it just brings the entire event

1:29:28

of that of what the the event

1:29:30

that killed the 60s it killed it

1:29:32

killed it to that it got me

1:29:34

to cut my hair to that yeah

1:29:36

glad to see you fuckers can handle

1:29:38

your high sarcastically yeah and I just

1:29:40

thought that was fucking genius A frightening

1:29:42

as it is. And as true as

1:29:44

it is, and as funny as he

1:29:46

is, and maybe one of the blackest

1:29:48

humor, humorous, everyone across, that cornerstone that

1:29:50

he's stolen that, you know, agate, is

1:29:52

the thing that ended the 60s, as

1:29:54

far as I'm concerned. That's right. Because

1:29:56

to live in that time, I marched

1:29:58

for this, I marched for that, I

1:30:01

marched for this, I was scared. And

1:30:03

I'd like what Obama said on your

1:30:05

show, just got to bring back Obama,

1:30:07

because he's a hero and he's one

1:30:09

of the few presidents I never met,

1:30:11

and I hope to go out and

1:30:13

meet the guy before both of his

1:30:15

paths. Because the inspiring thing he said

1:30:17

was, you know, don't believe it when

1:30:19

people say it isn't getting better or

1:30:21

it hasn't changed, or nothing has changed.

1:30:23

It has, because March in the 60s,

1:30:25

60s, 60s, 60s, 60s, 60s, 60s, 60s,

1:30:27

7, 60s, 60s, 60s, 60s, 60s, 60s,

1:30:29

60s, 60s, 60s, 60s, 60s, 60s, 60s,

1:30:31

60s, 60s, 60s, 60s, 60s, 60s, You

1:30:34

were going to get killed. Somebody's going

1:30:36

to come up and club you to

1:30:38

death in a second. I don't feel

1:30:40

that now. I feel a different kind

1:30:42

of paranoia. But for him to attack

1:30:44

that, once the Manson thing went down.

1:30:46

I could no longer be part of

1:30:48

that. Because then people started looking at

1:30:50

me with, I had a hair like

1:30:52

you, I had a go tea, I

1:30:54

had a hair down to this, okay,

1:30:56

it wasn't that shattering, it wasn't like

1:30:58

down in my ass, whatever, but all

1:31:00

of a sudden the world started looking

1:31:02

at me, and by the way, Tex

1:31:04

Watson did those murders, I went to

1:31:07

school with in North Texas, he was

1:31:09

in North Texas at the same time,

1:31:11

me, me, and me and Donna Hanley,

1:31:13

and me, and me and me and

1:31:15

me, Joe Green, that's that's that years,

1:31:17

that years, that years, years, claim to

1:31:19

fame to fame to fame to fame

1:31:21

to fame to fame to fame to

1:31:23

fame to fame to fame to fame,

1:31:25

You've got these guys who do this

1:31:27

thing and then all of a sudden,

1:31:29

they're looking at me like, oh, have

1:31:31

you got a knife? If you got,

1:31:33

are you gonna cut us up? Are

1:31:35

you gonna whatever? And I gotta see

1:31:37

as an honest of God chicken shit,

1:31:39

as much as Sam Kenneth on it,

1:31:42

I cut my hair man. Yeah. I

1:31:44

became looking like this and straight. Yeah,

1:31:46

yeah, yeah. I still wear bell bottoms

1:31:48

and all that shit still did stuff,

1:31:50

but I was not gonna look like

1:31:52

fucking Charles Mansons Mansons. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1:31:54

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. because the world

1:31:56

was looking at it differently. Yeah, well

1:31:58

it's good, but just tell me about

1:32:00

the book. Leon Battista Alberti. Yeah. Leon,

1:32:02

that's Leon. about the in exile. Tracing

1:32:04

the path of the first modern book

1:32:06

on painting and very shortly in an

1:32:08

abstract is about a very famous polymath,

1:32:10

Renaissance guy, everybody's favorite Renaissance guy, his

1:32:12

family was exiled from Florence. And then

1:32:15

he came back to Florence and for

1:32:17

a long time art historians would have

1:32:19

you believe that he wrote this first

1:32:21

modern book on painting at nine months

1:32:23

in a year. And my argument is

1:32:25

no, no, no. He had a big

1:32:27

education from Padua where I wanted you

1:32:29

to go. Joto. Joto. Joto. Yeah, and

1:32:31

he looked at Joto. Yeah. We're celebrating

1:32:33

the birthday of the church today. Yeah.

1:32:35

And he looked at that. He looked

1:32:37

at stuff in Malone. He looked at

1:32:39

stuff in Rome and he saw Donatello

1:32:41

before he ever got the Florence. And

1:32:43

he was loaded for bear before he

1:32:45

ever hit Florence. Okay. So, and that's...

1:32:48

So it's his source. Yeah, it's my

1:32:50