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2:03

Dung, welcome to We Have Ways

2:06

of Making You Talk, the Second

2:08

World War podcast with me, Al

2:10

Murray and James Holland. And for

2:12

those of you who've been grappling

2:15

with our lengthy series, this is

2:17

not one of those episodes. This

2:19

is Warwaffe, isn't it? Yeah, Warwaffle,

2:22

straight up Vauwaffle, not Vervefel, Vefelwaffle.

2:24

Waffle Creek. The Waffle Waffe, that's

2:26

what I was groping. from the

2:29

Waffle Waffa. Now you've been on,

2:31

well, I mean archival and geographical

2:33

adventures. Oh my God, I had

2:35

such a good week last week.

2:38

So the German archives, military archives,

2:40

there's various archives, all over the

2:42

place, but the military archives, but

2:45

the military archives, but the military

2:47

archives, but the military archives in

2:49

Freiburg, in Sfatsfeld, Freiburg is a

2:52

sort of cathedral university town, it's

2:54

lovely, lovely place to go visit,

2:56

lovely place to go to Gichista.

2:58

Yes, a Worcester bar. Okay, right, okay.

3:01

It's very nice. It's lovely. It's got

3:03

a great big cathedral in the middle

3:05

and it's got lots of little sort

3:07

of cobbly white streets. It's got trams,

3:09

it's got, you know, it's really nice.

3:11

And it was fast-nacked, which is a

3:14

big thing before, you know, the run-up,

3:16

and everyone goes, and it was fast-nacked,

3:18

which is a big thing before, you

3:20

know, you know, the run up, the

3:22

run up to Lent, and it, and

3:24

it, and it, and it, it, it,

3:26

it, it, it, it's, it's, it's, it's,

3:29

it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

3:31

it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

3:33

it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

3:35

it's, it's the French army of occupation

3:37

barracks back in the day, you know,

3:39

late 1940s, early 50s, whether. And all

3:42

these barracks have been converted into kind

3:44

of really quite hip apartment blocks. And

3:46

people have built sort of verandas on

3:48

and put climbing plants up the outside.

3:50

And it's got a slight sort of

3:52

hippie vibe to the whole thing down

3:55

in the kind of courtyards below the

3:57

sort of old Mercedes trucks, which have...

3:59

clearly used to be taken on hippie

4:01

jaunts and things like this. So it's

4:03

a bit groovy. It's a bit groovy.

4:05

It's a bit groovy. Exactly that. And

4:07

I stayed in the hotel. elements pure,

4:10

which was a Shenfui Hotel, which to

4:12

me just looked like a poverty ordinary.

4:14

Just a bit more, just a bit

4:16

more sparse than most. But anyway, so

4:18

you go there and it's quite chaotic.

4:20

We got chatting to an ex-German Bundesliga

4:23

soldier who then became a war correspondent

4:25

and then became obsessed of history and

4:27

back in the day met loads of

4:29

people so he met rib and dropped

4:31

son and things like this. But the

4:33

main thing was, you know what I

4:35

was looking for, was our Denon offensive

4:38

material. All modal's papers are there! files

4:40

and files and files of field martial

4:42

mode. Darries of his wife of documents

4:44

stuff that I sent you over a

4:46

couple of things as there was a

4:48

description of his character you know Moodle

4:51

is a very dynamic kind of person

4:53

and they also had had a description

4:55

of his suicide by the guy who

4:57

was there to yeah that's amazing. Absolutely

4:59

so the area where you get tend

5:01

to get sort of personal accounts is

5:04

called MSG. There's MSG one as MSG

5:06

two and there were quite a lot

5:08

in that including three separate accounts for

5:10

the 277 volts Grenadier division, which is

5:12

really exciting. So those are the guys

5:14

up in the north, come from the

5:16

Krenkelton valve. So they were up there

5:19

and various people, there's some seventh army

5:21

stuff, there were some others, and there

5:23

was the entire file on the Fura

5:25

Bigelow brigade. Yeah, and including Raima's personal

5:27

diary and the personal diary of a

5:29

guy called Oberloitand Island. Wow. Yeah, so

5:32

it's really, I was very, there's an

5:34

art historian really. but and she works

5:36

for Robert Edsel and I drove on

5:38

up and stayed in Badnauheim and then

5:40

went to see the Adlerholst and no

5:42

one goosley. The Adlerhors was a big

5:45

complex so you've got the Shros Ziegenberg

5:47

and you go down this you go

5:49

down this this sort of valley it

5:51

gets narrow narrow narrow and arrow narrow

5:53

there's the sort of wooded slopes slopes

5:55

either side there's a sort of valley

5:57

and then there's little offshoots from this

6:00

valley into a kind of even narrower

6:02

a sort of little wooded gorge kind

6:04

of thing. And at the corner of

6:06

the main valley and then the off-sheet

6:08

valley, there is a Schloss Ziegenberg, which

6:10

is a sort of great big kind

6:13

of white bastion with a rounded tower

6:15

that looks all very kind of, you

6:17

know, brothers' grip. And this was where

6:19

von Rünsted had his headquarters of Obie

6:21

West. It was also where Shakespeare in

6:23

1939 set up an advanced headquarters for

6:25

Hitler. It's a network dug underneath the

6:28

Schloss Ziegenbergenberg. And it has to be

6:30

said to be said... also by the

6:32

Schlesch Kranzberg which is about five or

6:34

six miles away and into the sides

6:36

of these woods and after the war

6:38

its whole complex was was taken over

6:41

by the Americans I think and used

6:43

and I think it was used by

6:45

fifth call. So I saw so I

6:47

was sort of wandering no one around

6:49

really. And but just I didn't say

6:51

salt, I just didn't see a single.

6:54

It's not like Euros, a turnstile in

6:56

a gift shop, right? It's just there.

6:58

It's just there, it's just there, it's

7:00

private, no one knows about it. There's

7:02

nothing to say, you know, this was

7:04

the Fura headquarters, there's nothing that says

7:06

Adler Horse or anything like this. Anyway,

7:09

you didn't go back down onto the

7:11

kind of sort of valley floor. It's

7:13

a concrete box, isn't it? It's a

7:15

great big concrete bugger with a concrete

7:17

pitch roof. And it's got this sort

7:19

of, it's got like a stone wall

7:22

outside it, but some of it's crumbled

7:24

a way to reveal the Nazi concrete

7:26

underneath. It's just amazing.

7:28

But you can see why you'd have

7:30

it as a headquarters there, because it's

7:32

really hidden. It's very secluded out of

7:34

the way. And I also went to

7:37

Gieson, which is the train station where

7:39

Hitler arrived into in the morning, you

7:41

know, 5am on the morning of the

7:43

11th December, and the cavalcade of Mercedes

7:45

was waiting for him outside. And it's

7:47

completely unchanged in terms of kind of

7:49

layout and everything. So I went there

7:51

and kind of imagined the... the next

7:54

few days just sort of beetling around

7:56

the audience. and doing sort of catching

7:58

up and stuff that we just didn't

8:00

have quite time. do the other day

8:02

and finding Foxholes and I went to

8:04

the Verdeen pocket which was where the

8:06

84th rail split as well and I'm

8:08

quite big on the rail split is

8:11

because of course they were with the

8:13

show of ranges at Gylenkirken in November

8:15

I had another look around the glaze

8:17

went to that amazing museum oh my

8:19

god it was good yeah well you

8:21

remember because you shut when we were

8:23

there you sent all those pictures over

8:25

like endless stuff yeah yeah yeah and

8:28

again it was just no one else

8:30

there so it was so it was

8:32

great so it was great so it

8:34

was great Oh really? So that was

8:36

quite fun. The other museum that, do

8:38

you remember Jaymatt was saying that we

8:40

should definitely go and see this incredible

8:42

museum at Deepirk? So I wouldn't see

8:44

that, that was insane. It was so

8:47

good. Quite realistic sort of dioramas of

8:49

various scenarios of sort of you know

8:51

men huddled around in a kind of

8:53

bust up barn or whatever and sort

8:55

of you know first aid post and

8:57

things and you you go up these

8:59

sort of stone steps and you open

9:01

a door and it's just absolutely massive

9:04

hanger just crammed full of stuff I

9:06

mean you've never seen anything like it

9:08

I mean there's literally not a spare

9:10

inch and hardware from absolutely everything you

9:12

could possibly imagine from you know chainsaws

9:14

you know you know petrol driven chainsaws

9:16

to huge giant welding machines to medical

9:18

kit to just every vehicle under the

9:21

sun vast amounts of shells and stacks

9:23

of ammunition boxes and and in the

9:25

rafters they've got some guys signal core

9:27

guys sort of or engineers mending the

9:29

wire. Oh that's cool. I didn't notice

9:31

them on my first trip around. And

9:34

there was not a single person in the museums.

9:37

I had the whole place for myself. It's just

9:39

amazing. It does make me wonder, you know, when

9:41

you say that though, what the future of a

9:43

museum like that is really, because I suppose it's

9:45

February, it was March, wasn't it? It's just not

9:47

the season, but you know, places like that, is

9:49

it? The reason I think of it is I

9:51

went to Graceland about 10 years ago, and it

9:53

was empty, and you got the feeling, oh, Elvis,

9:55

Elvis, Elvis, Elvis, And we had the kind of

9:58

had the place to ourselves, certainly at the museums

10:00

the other side of the road in Memphis to

10:02

ourselves. Yes, yes, that's right. And you get in

10:04

the little minibus. That's right. And it felt really

10:06

fantastic. to have the place yourself, but it also

10:08

made you think, how long has this got, with

10:10

the anniversary of the end of the war, the

10:12

80th anniversary coming, and veterans passing on, you know,

10:14

you do wonder, don't you, how long has, how

10:16

long has, how long has, how long has, it's

10:19

like the, you know, Coppitan combat collection, which is

10:21

essentially, I mean, it's fantastic, you know, it's like

10:23

the, you know, Coppitan combat collection, now, now it's

10:25

sort of, now it's sort of, it's sort of,

10:27

now, it's sort of, now, it's sort of, now,

10:29

it's sort of, now, it's sort of, now, it's

10:31

sort of, it's sort of, now, it's sort of,

10:33

it's sort of, now, now, it's, it's, it's sort

10:35

of, now, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

10:37

it's, it's, I don't know. I mean, I think

10:40

what you really need is you need a TV

10:42

series about whatever bit you want to do. Because,

10:44

I mean, the interesting thing is, Decirk is a

10:46

hop and a skip from Bastonia, as we now

10:48

have to call it, Bastonia. Then why wouldn't you

10:50

go to Decirk? It can't be more than 20,

10:52

30 minutes in the car. And it's you know

10:54

deco is not a big place easy to get

10:56

into. But that was the thing once we once

10:58

we started touring the battlefield what was interesting is

11:01

it is a large area but it breaks down

11:03

into those sort of five mile hops doesn't it

11:05

from village to village settlement to settlement actually and

11:07

it starts to not feel quite so enormous when

11:09

you. break it down like they would crumble it

11:11

down a bit. Well yeah and I went back

11:13

to Bastonia and I had a good look around

11:15

and I did some really good walking. I got

11:17

I had such a fantastic walk. So I thought

11:19

well what I do is I'll you know what's

11:22

the scale of all this and scale of what's

11:24

the scale of all this and what's the scale

11:26

of all this and why did they put what's

11:28

the scale of all this and why did they

11:30

put what's the scale of all this and why

11:32

you know why did they put what's the scale

11:34

of all this scale of all this scale of

11:36

all this? What's the scale of all this all

11:38

this all this scale of all this all this

11:40

all this? What's? What's? What's? What's? What's? What's? What's?

11:43

What's the scale of all of all of all

11:45

of all this scale of all this scale of

11:47

all this scale of all this scale of all

11:49

this? What's? What's? What's? What's? What's? What's? What's? What's

11:51

the road to Borsi. Again, you can see exactly

11:53

why they'd done it, because it's just on a

11:55

rise, it's on the high ground coming out of,

11:57

you know, it's not a big ridge, but it's

11:59

significant. You know, you can see it's important. Then

12:01

I crossed that road and I walked across a

12:04

field, I found another track and I pushed on

12:06

and that's where that... day with the 19th of

12:08

December, what happened was the 506 parachute infantry regiment

12:10

had moved up and the first battalion was, had

12:12

gone to join Team Dizzobri. What was he called?

12:14

Lagarde, I think was the name, Major James Lagarde.

12:16

And he immediately said that these were the guys

12:18

who were kind of picking up weapons and stuff

12:20

on their way up to Novill. There was some

12:22

ammo dumps and stuff of grenades and extra kind

12:25

of coats and whatnot. And they took on the

12:27

high ground to the north east of Novill. So

12:29

between the Hoofley's Road and the Borsley Road, and

12:31

again, you could see why they've done that and

12:33

why they've gone onto this bit, because there is

12:35

this quite pronounced ridge that comes out and this

12:37

high ground, and the Germans were attacking from the

12:39

other side. Anyway, the paratroop has got, you know,

12:41

these paratroop has got, you know, these first battalion,

12:43

the Germans were attacking from the other side. Anyway,

12:46

the paratroop has got, you know, the paratroop has

12:48

got, crucial delaying delaying, to where the block, position

12:50

was just above it and again Borks is in

12:52

a little hollow and land rises up so again

12:54

you kind of think oh that makes perfect sense

12:56

and I kind of set the old straver and

12:58

kind of thought well I want how long it

13:00

take me to walk back into the center of

13:02

noville 22 minutes you know that you suddenly got

13:04

a sense of how it all fitted together and

13:07

the scale of it. and everything. So that was

13:09

fascinating. And then I went into Bastone and I

13:11

went to the McAuliffe's headquarters place, which is in

13:13

the old army barracks, which were built in the

13:15

1930s, then used by the Gestapo, then taken over

13:17

by the Americans and in one of the blocks

13:19

in the kind of basements of some sellers and

13:21

that's where McAuliffe had his headquarters. during a battle.

13:23

But it was fascinating going there because I just

13:25

want to again I just want to see what

13:28

it was like and how they've done it is

13:30

very much the kind of sort of the awful

13:32

sacrifice of terrors of war you know this sort

13:34

of stuff you know you were now going down

13:36

into the cell as you know of the McAuliffe's

13:38

headquarters here and best-on-year. It was all this kind

13:40

of stuff and you go down on the kind

13:42

of lights flicker and you know and you hear

13:44

sort of you know the sort of audio of

13:46

you know chit-chatchit-chat and scraping and scraping and scraping

13:49

and scraping and scraping and scraping chairs and scraping

13:51

chairs and scraping chairs and scraping chairs and scraping

13:53

chairs and scraping chairs and scraping chairs and scraping

13:55

chairs and scraping chairs and scraping chairs and scraping

13:57

chairs and scraping chairs and scraping chairs and scraping

13:59

chairs and scraping chairs and scraping chairs and scraping

14:01

chairs and scraping chairs and scraping chairs and scraping

14:03

and scraping chairs and scraping chairs and scraping chairs

14:05

and scraping chairs and scraping chairs and scraping chairs

14:07

and scraping chairs and scraping and scraping chairs and

14:10

scraping chairs and scraping and scraping dioramas of people

14:12

sort of going, God, do you think we'll get

14:14

out, we'll ever see another Christmas? Really? I thought

14:16

it was beautifully put together, but I thought the

14:18

kind of commentary in the audio was just absolutely

14:20

just awful and unspeakably more-ish, but obviously it's not,

14:22

it's not, it's not directed to me. You had

14:24

an audio tour with your headphones and everything. I

14:26

mean, I think I went around the whole thing

14:28

in nine minutes. You're supposed to be there for

14:31

three hours. Unbelievable. But then I went into the

14:33

101st Airborne Museum, which is in this house. And

14:35

it's got this absolutely tremendous. It's got this incredible

14:37

basement, which is a bomb shelter. You just push

14:39

the door and go into the bomb shelter. And

14:41

first of all, you hear sort of... Yeah. Like

14:43

sort of, you know, bitter winter wind and you're

14:45

already sort of starting to kind of shuffle your

14:47

shoulders just out of sort of sympathy. Lights flicker

14:49

and there's a kind of, you know, through a

14:52

sort of shattered window you can see a sort

14:54

of room with some Belgian civilians sort of looking

14:56

chilly and kind of worried. Suddenly you hear this

14:58

sort of drone of aircraft and bombs falling and

15:00

sort of clack clackack of tanks and machine guns

15:02

and everything shakes. and the lamp above you starts

15:04

flickering and moving around and stuff. It was absolutely

15:06

brilliant. It was completely fantastic. And then there was

15:08

this other diorama of these Americans going into this

15:10

room and attacking these Germans. One of the Germans

15:13

is very badly wounded. The other one's getting stabbed

15:15

in the stomach of a bare net. It's all

15:17

going pulling her face and there's a stain in

15:19

his shirt. They've really gone for it there with

15:21

a... They've gone for it big time. But my

15:23

point, I was going to say, this is our

15:25

point of saying all this, in the McCulloughs basement

15:27

in Bastonia and also the 101st Airborne Museum. There

15:29

were loads of people. Bastonia was he. Well that's

15:31

good. But Die Kirk, not a soul. Frankly, much

15:34

better. Yeah, well that's, yeah, it's strange, isn't it?

15:36

Although I did, you know, that didn't have people

15:38

being stacked. But it's the complete distortion, isn't it,

15:40

via the telly, of where the telly, where the,

15:42

where the center of where the story, is, where

15:44

the story, is, is, where the story, really, really,

15:46

really. Yeah, because there's so much cool stuff. Even

15:48

in our eight parts, we didn't talk about the

15:50

second. the battle really where the Americans crushed the

15:52

Germans back into position do they? I mean we

15:55

didn't... No we can't pay their lip service because

15:57

although it's like the... and John we talked about

15:59

this with Jay Matt you know that's the hard

16:01

slog bit there's none of the sort of thrill

16:03

of the German breakout and Jeopardy as none of

16:05

the sort of thrill of the German breakout and

16:07

Jeopardy as it were the hard slog bit there's

16:09

none of the sort of the sort of thrill

16:11

of the German breakout, German breakout, as it was

16:13

the oxen bucks boardo, I found the stuff, I

16:16

thought the stuff you sent the stuff you sent

16:18

the stuff you sent the stuff you sent the

16:20

stuff you sent over, you sent over, you sent

16:22

over, you sent over, you sent over, you sent

16:24

over, you sent over, you sent over, you sent

16:26

over, you sent over, you sent over, you sent

16:28

over, you sent over, you sent over, you sent

16:30

over, you sent over, you sent over, you sent

16:32

over, you sent over, you sent over General Dietrich

16:34

is regarded with low esteem by his fellow officers.

16:37

He did not seem to have a grasp of

16:39

the operations of his army in the Ardennes and

16:41

was unable to present a comprehensive picture of the

16:43

happenings, even in the most general terms. Much of

16:45

the material in the following pages must be regarded

16:47

in light of this situation. Furthermore, there are numbers

16:49

obvious errors in the answers provided by this former

16:51

chauffeur. I know. Isn't that amazing? About how damning

16:53

is it? But there's also quite a lot of

16:55

stuff on Cramer. She's quite good. Well, should we

16:58

take a break and then we've some questions too

17:00

in the style of... Yeah, and I must tell

17:02

you about my strange encounter in our hospital waiting

17:04

room as well. Yes, please do. We'll see you

17:06

in a tick. This

17:10

episode is brought to you

17:12

by 20th century studios, The

17:14

Amateur, when his wife is

17:17

murdered. Charlie Heller, the CIA's

17:19

most brilliant computer analyst, must

17:21

trek across the globe and

17:23

use his only weapon, his

17:25

intelligence, to hunt down her

17:28

killers and enact revenge. Starring

17:30

Academy Award winner Rami Malek,

17:32

an Academy Award nominee, Lawrence

17:34

Fishburn. The Amateur, rated PG-13,

17:36

only in theaters April 11th.

17:47

Well, with the name of your

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price tool from Progressive, you can

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Company and affiliates. Price and coverage

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match limited by state law. Not

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available. Welcome

19:54

back to We Have Ways of Making You

19:56

Waffle. to me, Al Murray. Now Jim, we

19:58

bumped into each other yesterday, actually, at the

20:01

goal hanger event, didn't we? Which was great

20:03

fun, wasn't it? And really interesting to me.

20:05

Sat next to the brilliant catty-K. Is that

20:07

opposite Gary? Which is fantastic. I was next

20:09

to David Alashoga, who was telling me. He's

20:12

doing a look. He's so nice. But his

20:14

next lecture series that he's going to take

20:16

out is about the social history of the

20:18

machine gun. What? Yeah. Because he said, I'll

20:21

be honest with you, I came into history

20:23

via the, you know, started off with the

20:25

Second World War, and then I became a

20:27

historian and I'm trying to claw my way

20:29

back. What did you say? You can run,

20:32

but you can't hide. Exactly. And he was

20:34

very interesting about, you know, the marketing around

20:36

the Tommy gun, basically, the marketing around it

20:38

in the 1920s is all about for bandits,

20:41

basically, essentially, to the mob. They didn't hear

20:43

their core audience back. the cops or whatever.

20:45

Once the war starts, the ordinance, the US

20:47

audience is going, this gun's too expensive, it's

20:49

too heavy, you need to get the price

20:52

down, blah blah blah blah, and they get

20:54

into a tussle about it. And that's how

20:56

you end up with the Greece gun. How

20:58

amazing. Because the US audience and I was

21:01

spending too much money on this. Absolutely fascinating.

21:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I got

21:05

a hard yes from Dominic Sandbroke about coming

21:07

to We Have, We Have, We Have Waysest,

21:09

We Have, We Have, We Have, We Have,

21:12

We Have, We Have, We Have, We Have,

21:14

We Have, We Have, we, We Have, We

21:16

Have, We Have, We Have, We Have, We

21:18

Have, We Have, We Have, We Have, We

21:21

Have, We Have, We Have, We Have, We

21:23

Have, We Have, We Have, We Have, A,

21:25

A, A, A, A, A, A, A, A,

21:27

A, The He was very much up for

21:30

it and I think his son is fascinated

21:32

by the subject as well so he'll score

21:34

some brownie points too. He loves, he said

21:36

he loves, he said he loves tanks. Well

21:38

he's going to do church on that. Yeah

21:41

but it was very sweet as well to

21:43

see the the original four because now Goldhanger

21:45

is this sort of extraordinary but no Joey.

21:47

No Joey yesterday, like a beehive now. There's

21:50

that photo of the four of them. What

21:52

Tony is the Queen Bee. Yes yes yes.

21:54

You're very pleased with themselves. Anyway, but you

21:56

told me this absolutely amazing thing yesterday. To

21:58

be honest, it was completely amazing, but also

22:01

in its own strange way, not at all

22:03

surprised. So background to story is, when we

22:05

were in the bulge, I woke up one

22:07

morning with a really, really sore neck, which

22:10

hasn't gone away and it turns out. So

22:12

I was in the hospital having an MRI

22:14

scan on my neck. Turns out I've got

22:16

herniated disc in my neck and it's really

22:18

bad. Anyway, so I was in the waiting

22:21

room. This chat is sort of, sort of...

22:23

I don't know, he's probably his 70s, his

22:25

late 60s, 70s, something like that. He said,

22:27

no, you, you, you, Jay Holland, I said,

22:30

yes, he said, oh, I'm read your up

22:32

to the moment. He said, oh, what are

22:34

you up to the moment? I said, oh,

22:36

you know, I'm doing some bold stuff. He

22:38

said, ah, I went, I was in Scots

22:41

cars. And he said, I went in a

22:43

B-O-A-A-A-A-A-A-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-In, in, in, in, in, in, in, in,

22:45

in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in,

22:47

in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in

22:50

And I said, amazing, he said, yes, we

22:52

had a curious German fellow with his chap

22:54

called Jocken Paper. I literally, nearly fell off

22:56

my chest. I mean, what? He said, yes.

22:58

I said, what Jocken Paper, Piper, Piper, as

23:01

in Wolfen S. Camp grouper, as in Jocken

23:03

Piper, as in Jocken Piper. And he said,

23:05

well, we said, well, his English was superb.

23:07

Very good. Totally unrepentant. Said that the Malmary

23:10

accident, he had nothing to do with him

23:12

whatsoever. I said, was he all right? I

23:14

mean, was he a good bloke or whatever?

23:16

He said, well, you know, he said, he

23:19

was, you know, he's very interesting. Oh, it's

23:21

absolutely amazing. That is absolutely incredible. We got

23:23

chatting a bit more about it. I said,

23:25

how on earth did you get a docket

23:27

pipe, a waffinar says, war criminal, to come

23:30

on this? He said, I think quite a

23:32

few knuckles were wrapped on that one. God,

23:34

it's just amazing. I know, but I really

23:36

want to find the, you know, the documents

23:39

that went with it. Well, they'll be out

23:41

there somewhere, won't they? I mean, Sandhurst probably,

23:43

or even, I mean, they may, I mean,

23:45

they may, I mean, they may, I mean,

23:47

they may, I mean, they may, I don't

23:50

know, I mean, or even, I mean, I

23:52

mean, they may, I mean, they may, I

23:54

mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I

23:56

mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I

23:59

mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I

24:01

mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I

24:03

mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I

24:05

mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I

24:07

mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I

24:10

mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I

24:12

mean, I mean was a sort of a

24:14

bet and you know he said I think

24:16

that you know with everyone the tails got

24:19

better and and so on. Conversations you have

24:21

in hospital waiting rooms. Well absolutely. But I

24:23

was almost quite grateful for my MRI scan

24:25

for that little nugget. Well I mean the

24:27

thing is the shock of it might you

24:30

might have popped another disc though that's the

24:32

end. But, I mean, Piper was murdered, wasn't

24:34

he? Someone, he moved to France, murdered in

24:36

1976. I guess, so this is the other

24:39

thing that, I think he was called John

24:41

Targill, was his name. And John said, he

24:43

said, yes, he said, I can't understand his

24:45

why he was working, why he was living

24:48

in France? I said, I think he just

24:50

liked it. I think he wanted to sort

24:52

of the quiet life. I mean, he ended

24:54

up translating it for Mercedes, didn't, in Porsche,

24:56

in Porsche, Porsche, Porsche. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

24:59

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

25:01

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

25:03

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, translating technical

25:05

manuals. I mean for commanding sort of 5,000

25:08

men and 115 tanks and 800 vehicles age

25:10

29 to translating technical manuals for portion. Yeah,

25:12

it's a bit of a... Well, yeah, but

25:14

maybe he was better at the technical manuals

25:16

than he was at commanding. I mean, he

25:19

didn't do a gleaming job, did he? I

25:21

mean, he was given something terrible to do,

25:23

but anyway, he was murdered. Basically, the postman

25:25

changed. That's wrong. And in his little village

25:28

in Provence. It was called something like Sev,

25:30

or something like that. Troy, Troy, Troy, something

25:32

like that. Anyway, wherever he was, he lived.

25:34

And he lived in these woods, and he

25:36

had quite a simple kind of old stone

25:39

building, and it was just a little place

25:41

he could call home, not think too much

25:43

about his war crimes. And he had kids,

25:45

didn't he, and his wife and stuff, his

25:48

wife's to buy him, she's probably a Nazi

25:50

as well, I don't know. But anyway, he,

25:52

The postman changed and the new postman was

25:54

a communist and worked out how he was

25:56

and they started a sort of hate campaign.

25:59

They started dawbing stuff on walls in the

26:01

village. And then on the main road, someone

26:03

just wrote, you know, Piper, you know, war

26:05

criminal on the road and big paint. And

26:08

he started getting, you know, anonymous letters and

26:10

stuff. And then one night a whole bunch

26:12

of them attacked him with kind of Molotov

26:14

cocktails chucking them through the glass and whatever.

26:16

And I think he'd have been okay had

26:19

he not tried to save his papers. But

26:21

there were loads of stories about, you know,

26:23

four French communists were murdered and when they

26:25

discovered his body he had a gun by

26:28

his side and, you know, empty cartridges. taking

26:30

them down with him and all this sort

26:32

of stuff, all of which is non-complete lie,

26:34

nothing didn't happen at all. Wow. He wouldn't,

26:37

I mean, he wouldn't have done an American

26:39

staff ride, would he? That's the thing, he'd

26:41

have said yes to a P-A-O-R staff ride,

26:43

wouldn't he? But he's not going to be

26:45

able to. Well, yeah, and then he could

26:48

have told them how it really, how it

26:50

really was, and it would have been his

26:52

chance to get his chance to get his

26:54

word across and talk about them with his

26:57

English and talk about the old days, Yeah,

26:59

go amazing. Should we do some questions? We've

27:01

got some quite interesting ones. This is actually

27:03

something I've often sort of scratched my head

27:05

wondering about. Trevor asks, given Spain, Switzerland, and

27:08

Sweden were neutral, was there much in the

27:10

way of civil aviation to the skies in

27:12

Europe, 39-45? And if so, how did it

27:14

work in terms of who was allowed to

27:17

fly? You know, assume Mrs. Megan's fly to

27:19

Madrid may have been looked at a stance,

27:21

and how would they avoid being shot down?

27:23

Well, the truth is they didn't always avoid

27:25

getting shot down. You know, a reference General

27:28

Sikorski, he was shot down, Leslie Howard, who

27:30

was shot down over the Bay of Biscay

27:32

and Guild. So lots of people did. I

27:34

mean, you know, that was the whole point

27:37

of having rondalls and markings was to do

27:39

this. So people did, there was a lot

27:41

of... flying around, you know, Churchill and Roosevelt

27:43

and stuff are flying and you've had to

27:45

do so with a huge amount of care

27:48

and caution. It was very, very fraught. Harold

27:50

McMillan crashing on takeoff and having to rescue

27:52

the French pilot. That's not civil aviation as

27:54

such, is it? I think, I think, no,

27:57

it's not, it's not as such, but there

27:59

was a lot of flying. So civil aviation

28:01

in Switzerland, you can fly, you know, yes,

28:03

it did happen and did so quite a

28:05

lot in Sweden. British marketing sort of okay.

28:08

But obviously it's not a lot of commercial

28:10

flying because there's no reason to. There wasn't

28:12

much. flying then anyway, you know, fuel is

28:14

expensive, it was fought with risk on so

28:17

many levels, so there wasn't a lot, but

28:19

I mean it did happen but not very

28:21

much. This diplomatic bag back from Sweden and

28:23

that sort of thing, isn't it, in Mosquito's,

28:26

it's that sort of stuff, it's all that

28:28

kind of stuff. Yeah, there's lots of people

28:30

flying in and out of Lisbon. Yeah, yeah,

28:32

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. by capital in

28:34

Europe, etc. I mean it is important, I

28:37

mean we've talked about this before, we've touched

28:39

on it before, the podcast, flying is different

28:41

than to it is now, it's much more

28:43

dangerous full stop. Yes. It is still novel,

28:46

you know there are internal airlines, there are

28:48

internal airlines in the US aren't there, which

28:50

is where a lot of transport pilots come

28:52

from. You sort of got to imagine the

28:54

world as it is now, haven't you, to

28:57

think about aviation in the 1940s. flying accident.

28:59

General Vaver is killed in a flying accident.

29:01

Bertram Ramsey. Fritz Todd is killed in a

29:03

flying accident. Bertram Ramsey is killed in a

29:06

flying accident. The four mentioned, Leslie Howard, the

29:08

film story shot down over the bed. Or

29:10

Wingate. Mary Cunningham is killed just after the

29:12

war. The Bermuda Triangle. You know, it happens

29:14

a lot. I mean, you know, every time

29:17

you fly. I mean, this is why really

29:19

those, you know... the Yalta conference at that

29:21

end of the war is just astonishing that

29:23

they did this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And

29:26

again, I'm afraid that's a Russian sort of

29:28

going, well, you've got to come to a

29:30

house. But that's the Russians wanting to be

29:32

in charge, is it? And making, yeah, yeah,

29:34

yeah, but I find it absolutely incredible that

29:37

they did. Yeah, well, and at least, he's

29:39

not very well. it kind of kills him,

29:41

doesn't it? Really? Yeah, basically. Yeah. I mean,

29:43

it's interesting, isn't it? Around now. I mean,

29:46

we have these questions, but we've also got

29:48

a little summary of what's happening now in

29:50

March, 1945, which I think's really interesting. So

29:52

this is Hitler's last visit to the front

29:55

is on March the 11th, and it goes

29:57

to Bad Freynvalda on the Oder. And of

29:59

course, says... The Wonder Weapons, if

30:01

you could just hold on, the

30:03

Wonder Weapons are on offer and

30:05

they will be ready, don't worry.

30:08

I mean, imagine, does he believe

30:10

it? Does he know? No, he

30:12

can't, can he? No. He can't, can

30:14

he? I mean, the thing is,

30:16

can he? No. He can't, can

30:18

he? No. I mean, the thing

30:20

is, he knows, he knows, he

30:23

knows, he's on a map, but

30:25

he's also sort of refusing to

30:27

admit it, to admit it, on

30:29

the 12th of March. Japanese internment

30:31

camp prisoners are wounded by border

30:33

patrol agents using tear gas and

30:35

batons. Was that the seven Japanese

30:38

prisoners that have been captured in

30:40

the war? No, these people have

30:42

been interned. So... Are they interned?

30:44

Are they not... Yeah, no. battle

30:46

of Kianulesk, Kianuleskis, which is Lithuanians,

30:48

partisans holding out against the Red

30:50

Army against conscription and occupation. So

30:52

there's a there's a there's a

30:55

taste of you know the actual

30:57

feeling in the Baltic about the

30:59

Soviet Union about the Russians. Yeah

31:01

well this is an interesting one

31:03

16th of March is FDR, Russo-American

31:05

people. tighten their belts as a

31:07

matter of decency so the US

31:10

could send more food to war

31:12

ravaged Europe and stuff and and

31:14

Really, I had such an interesting conversation

31:16

with Caterica. Yeah, we were talking about

31:18

this and I was talking about all

31:20

the things that Roosevelt had done, the

31:22

sort of executive presidential orders, the changing

31:24

of removing of a whole load of

31:26

responsibility for rearmament from the hands of

31:28

Congress into his own personal hands. And

31:30

she was saying, well, yes, you know,

31:32

so is that so very different from

31:34

Trump? And I said, well, yeah, it's

31:36

two big differences. The first thing is

31:38

that Roosevelt for all his Machiavellianism was

31:40

fundamentally a really good man who... absolutely

31:43

believed in world peace and world prosperity

31:45

and wanted to, you know, wanted to

31:47

create a world free of fear and

31:49

want, you know, as per the Atlantic

31:51

Charter of August 1941, etc. You know,

31:54

Trump isn't. You can be a maga

31:56

supporter, you can think the sun shines

31:58

out of his ass, but... Here's a

32:00

completely selfish narcissist to individual. There's no

32:02

question about that. It's completely different. And

32:04

there is a mission. America, United States

32:06

in the 1940s, is clearly imperfect. You

32:08

know, you have Jim Crow laws and

32:11

all the rest of it and racism.

32:13

All of that, but it is on

32:15

a mission for global betterment and it

32:17

wants to be the beacon of that

32:19

betterment. You know, it is on that

32:21

path. And Roosevelt is very much championing

32:23

that. Well, I mean, it's interesting him

32:25

talking about titing belts because, I mean,

32:27

send more food to all ravaged nations,

32:29

because this is one of the big

32:31

things in the least, the butter going

32:33

to the Soviet Union. butter and crab

32:35

going to the Soviet Union. And there's

32:37

actually a butter shortage in the US

32:39

as a result of lend lease because

32:41

they're sending so much butter east, you

32:43

know, to the Soviets. You know, the

32:45

point where you've questions asked in Congress

32:47

about it because American families are saying,

32:50

well, hold on a minute, why are

32:52

we going short on butter? And you

32:54

know, and you've got pork in 943,

32:56

the American pork canning industry, is jigged

32:58

to deal with the Soviet demand for

33:00

canned meat. first quarter, 1945, FDR saying

33:02

this, there's still, this is carrying on,

33:04

we're going to have, and also, yeah,

33:06

Docinawa, April is, first of April, April

33:08

is going. And if you're looking at,

33:10

if your eye is turning to the

33:12

Pacific now, as the Americans inevitably must

33:14

be, once you're over the Rhine, you're

33:16

thinking, well, there's another, maybe another year

33:18

and a half of sending bus to

33:20

the Soviets or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

33:22

yeah. I like this question from Jan

33:24

who says with the 80 years of

33:26

the VEE victory in Europe commemoration this

33:29

year in mind. Do you think the

33:31

current war in Ukraine will somehow affect

33:33

the historiography of World War II? Well

33:35

you've been talking about this to me.

33:37

Yes, absolutely. I mean lots of different

33:39

directions isn't it? Because I think Woody

33:41

and I talked about this, that one

33:43

of the change. Yeah, Woody Woodage. It

33:45

does the World War II TV channel.

33:47

One of the things that's definitely happened

33:49

is because the Russians performed. that they

33:51

had sought to project. You know, people

33:53

talked about the Russian army, the current

33:55

Russian army being the second, you know,

33:57

army in the world after the US

33:59

army before the invasion of Ukraine. And

34:01

now I don't think anyone thinks that.

34:03

And no, everyone thinks they've been rubbish.

34:06

No, no. And all the jokes about

34:08

the second best army in Ukraine. That

34:10

sort of stuff. I think it's, we

34:12

were just talking about lend least. And

34:14

I think, you know, Sean MacMeekin's book,

34:16

which states, without lend lease, Soviet Union,

34:18

will, will, will, will, will have got

34:20

nowhere, will have got nowhere, will have

34:22

got nowhere, will have got nowhere, will

34:24

have got nowhere, will, within a year

34:26

of the America. Yes, I don't remember

34:28

when Chukokk hands up. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

34:30

within a year of entering the war,

34:32

you know, the Americans entering the war.

34:34

It's amazing. Because it's quite interesting, because

34:36

Adam-2s were 480,000 miles of... That's it.

34:38

Yes, and locomotives, and tube allies in

34:40

the end, and before this Adam-2s had

34:42

kind of argued that the Soviet Union

34:45

was able to win its... part of

34:47

the Second World War, because it had

34:49

industrialized, because it had its revolution, whereas

34:51

the Germans are essentially, they're putting their

34:53

revolution off until after the war, when

34:55

that's where they'll sort things out. They

34:57

need to get the war done now.

34:59

And so he argues, you know, that

35:01

the Soviets are able to win and

35:03

because of... the revolution because two is

35:05

left leaning you know one way or

35:07

another yeah but now you look at

35:09

it and you think well it's it's

35:11

American stuff but that might also be

35:13

because the prism of the Ukraine war

35:15

is American stuff as kept Ukraine going

35:17

so we're seeing another version of Lindley's

35:19

another way of looking up yes the

35:22

effect of well I think the main

35:24

thing is is it makes you slightly

35:26

think again that that despite the kind

35:28

of revolution that takes place in the

35:30

kind of second half of 1942 of

35:32

1942 of in the red army which

35:34

I suppose it reaches a high water

35:36

market curse under Rokoski and Ko. This

35:38

development of the deep battle but the

35:40

deep battle is spectacularly wasteful. So for

35:42

those who don't know and we have

35:44

talked about it in the past but

35:46

the idea of the deep battle is

35:48

is what you do is you have

35:50

this incredible buildup of forces and that

35:52

your echelons, you basically swing back this

35:54

huge bashing ram of your kind of

35:56

assault divisions, but the echelons come through

35:58

with you. So you just go in

36:01

this huge great surge, a tidal wave

36:03

of violence. The problem is that it's

36:05

like a... It's like a monosellular organism

36:07

that the army travels with everything in

36:09

it. Everything in it. There are those

36:11

pictures of a cell that you draw

36:13

for a GCSio-level biology where there's the

36:15

cell with all the parts in it.

36:17

The army moves as a sort of

36:19

contiguous blob with everything in it that

36:21

it needs. But the problem with that

36:23

is that it's incredibly wasteful. Because, and

36:25

the truth is that, you know, the

36:27

speed of which they're developing these new

36:29

divisions is so fast that they can't

36:31

possibly be trained. There's none of this

36:33

kind of sort of two years training

36:35

in Northern Ireland that you have before

36:37

D.D. or anything like that. These guys,

36:40

they're given basic basic training. They are

36:42

considered entirely expendable, and they are. Well,

36:44

Krakovka, I mean, So they use overwhelming

36:46

violence and power and numbers to do

36:48

the hard yards, but it's incredibly wasteful.

36:50

And I think what you're seeing with

36:52

the Russian army in Ukraine is one

36:54

that is also incredibly wasteful, incredibly kind

36:56

of callous and cruel with regard to

36:58

the lives of, with regard to the

37:00

lives and cruel with regard to the

37:02

lives of their own men. They just

37:04

don't care. They're expecting, you know, high

37:06

attrition. And you also see a sort

37:08

of lack of coordination and lack of

37:10

decent training. about this, a 50-second lowland

37:12

division specialist listener of ours, fantastic blow,

37:14

ex-sapper, so clearly right sort of person.

37:17

And he was saying, here's one at

37:19

a glance takeaway from the bulges, operational

37:21

art is much easier in the east

37:23

than it is in the west to

37:25

feel the Germans. If you bring, you

37:27

know, because a lot of the people

37:29

who are fighting on the German side

37:31

in the Arden are used to fighting

37:33

on the Soviet, the eastern front, lots

37:35

of eastern front experience, they come west,

37:37

it's just that much more difficult. The

37:39

West of... Because of the train, but

37:41

also because it's up against the Americans

37:43

who got... Well, and because of, you

37:45

know, tactical air is completely, is that

37:47

conjoined twins. You know, there's that the

37:49

way the Phillips Place and O'Brien describes

37:51

the Battle of the Bulge, you know,

37:53

this is small land cuffle, and then

37:56

the actual battle begins, which is the

37:58

big aerial component. There's the pause when

38:00

they can't, when the ally, when no

38:02

one can use their aircraft, and then

38:04

the air... show up and then that's

38:06

kind of that's that really and I

38:08

think there's there's an interesting point you

38:10

know the operational side of things is

38:12

that much easier up if you're the

38:14

Germans fighting the Soviet you're still being

38:16

absolutely smashed to pieces by these gigantic

38:18

armies, but you can still make ground

38:20

if you need to on the eastern

38:22

front in a way that on the

38:24

west and front it's just a different

38:26

a different ball game operationally. I mean

38:28

I think the other thing we're going

38:30

to see to come back to the

38:32

question about historically of the you know

38:35

the surrenders and everything is the Russian

38:37

approach to negotiation which is a completely

38:39

maximalist demand and no bending. Well it'll

38:41

be interesting what happens, by the time

38:43

it comes out it might have happened,

38:45

yeah. But Bob, whatever's going to happen,

38:47

there's this ceasefire that means that, you

38:49

know, an end to the war can

38:51

be credited, but I don't think things

38:53

that it's completely, it feels to me

38:55

like completely unfinished business in the East,

38:57

in Ukraine, whatever happens in the next

38:59

six weeks. Anyway, should we do one

39:01

last question? Denny, I like this, my

39:03

question is how on earth was anything

39:05

even running in Germany running in Germany

39:07

in Germany in late- Awful. It was

39:09

terrible. Everything's bad. Everything's bad. Everything indicates...

39:12

You're making ends meet by not very

39:14

much, dependent on doleouts by the allies

39:16

and... Yeah. I mean, yeah, citizen ruins.

39:18

I mean, it's just everything's gone to

39:20

pop. And you will have lost someone,

39:22

you know, so everyone's in the state.

39:24

Does he mean... Does he mean 90

39:26

or 45? Does he mean 44? But

39:28

I mean... Well, if it does mean

39:30

that it applies, the real collapse happens

39:32

in February 1945, because that's when the

39:34

rights ban ceases to exist properly. And

39:36

everything falls in itself. Yeah, it's been

39:38

so hammered that they just, they can't

39:40

function anymore. And the rights ban is

39:42

very much the glue that keeps helping

39:44

to go. I mean, there is this

39:46

thing as well. The whole country would

39:48

have been in grief. Everyone will have

39:51

lost someone. So everyone is dealing with

39:53

grief. You know, imagine what an emotional

39:55

or, or suppressed emotionally place it must

39:57

have been. Right, well, thanks very much

39:59

for listening. We've got stuff to come.

40:01

At the end of the war in

40:03

Europe, we've got to look at. New

40:05

Mega Series. The new Mega Series. We'll

40:07

be looking further into the year. Bridget

40:09

Remigan. God, that's great story. I interviewed

40:11

the bloke whose dad had been the

40:13

station master who they shot, they thought

40:15

was in the SS, because he was

40:17

wearing a black railway uniform. Poor sod.

40:19

And then an American soldier who said,

40:21

we shot this SS guy. It's like,

40:23

oh no. It's like, oh no. It's

40:25

horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible ironies of maybe,

40:28

shit. We got, Hiroshima, the beginning of

40:30

the atomic age, the Newenburg trials, hopefully,

40:32

and you know, some point, we'll get

40:34

around to some of other years of

40:36

the Second World War. Members, of course,

40:38

get early and ad free access to

40:40

all series, if you become an officer

40:42

class member on our on our Apple

40:44

channel. But in September, of course, for

40:46

the 12th and 14th, is we have

40:48

Ways Festival V for Victory, putting the

40:50

fun into fun. On the 12th of

40:52

April, so we have Fighting for Finley,

40:54

which is a war gaming event in

40:56

Chiswick in West London, where on that

40:58

Saturday we'll be fighting Nymegan and Arnhem

41:00

on big tables. Try and end the

41:02

war before Christmas, it's the idea, isn't

41:04

it, Jim? See if we can do

41:07

that. Yeah, something like that. Someone like

41:09

that. And if you missed it, we

41:11

have a member exclusive live stream in

41:13

March talking about moral and psychology in

41:15

the war with John McManus and Dr

41:17

Luke Hughes, which was just absolutely fantastic.

41:19

Yeah, wasn't it fascinating? Yeah, really, really

41:21

fascinating. Yeah, really, really interesting. Burn of

41:23

command. Very full provoking. Really thought provoking.

41:25

Anyway, we will see you all soon.

41:27

Thanks very much for listening and cheerio.

41:29

Cheerio! So

41:35

here's a clip from our series on The Troubles. This

41:37

is the strangest thing about this story is that Northern

41:39

Ireland is so small. And listen, there are other, I

41:41

mean you could tell a similar story about Sarajevo or

41:43

any number of other types of places where there's been

41:45

a conflict, Rwanda, and then the conflict ends and everybody

41:47

still kind of lives in the same community and you

41:49

see these. people, but you know, you know,

41:51

there's an instance, even as

41:53

adults where Helen McConville with

41:55

her own family in in and

41:57

sees one of the people

42:00

who abducted her mother. There's

42:02

a moment that I described

42:04

in the book where Michael

42:06

McConville actually gets into the

42:08

back of a black taxi

42:10

the back of a Belfast as an

42:12

adult. And he sees in

42:14

the mirror in the front

42:16

of the taxi, he realizes

42:18

that the man driving him

42:20

is one of the people

42:22

who decades earlier earlier. abducted his

42:24

mother. And And the strangest,

42:26

most eerie aspect of this

42:28

is this doesn't say anything. say

42:30

he doesn't even know if

42:32

that guy even know if that him.

42:35

And they drive in silence

42:37

and then he just pays

42:39

the guy's money and leaves.

42:41

To hear the full series,

42:43

just search series, just you get

42:45

your podcasts. you get your podcasts.