0:00

Hello, you and me, both listeners.

0:03

I'm currently traveling abroad, so while

0:05

I don't have a new episode

0:08

for you this week, I want

0:10

to share with you one of my favorite

0:12

episodes from last season in

0:15

case you missed it the first time. I

0:17

hope you enjoy listening to my conversations

0:20

with Brandy Carlisle and Andre

0:23

Dea Shields as much as I enjoyed

0:26

talking to them. I find them

0:28

both so inspirational

0:30

and don't we need that right now?

0:33

And stay tuned for next week when

0:35

I'll be back with a new episode.

0:40

I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is

0:42

you and me. Both Believe

0:44

in yourself. You know, it's a piece of advice

0:47

we hear a lot, but for many

0:49

of us, it takes years, if not

0:51

a lifetime, to actually get there.

0:54

And then there are those rare folks,

0:56

immensely talented and hard working,

1:00

somehow always knew that they

1:02

would be somebody. Today,

1:13

I have the pleasure of speaking with two

1:15

people who believed in themselves from

1:17

the get go. Later we'll

1:19

hear from the incredibly talented

1:22

actor, director, and choreographer

1:24

Andre Deshields, but first

1:27

I'm talking to multiple Grammy

1:30

Award winning singer and songwriter

1:33

Brandy Carlisle. I

1:35

first discovered Brandy back in twenty

1:38

nineteen when she performed her song

1:40

The Joke at the Grammy Awards.

1:43

That year, she was nominated for

1:45

six, yes, six Grammys

1:48

for her album By the Way I

1:50

Forgive You. I immediately

1:53

tracked down as much of her music as I could.

1:55

I've been a fan ever since. Brandy

1:58

grew up in Washington State

2:01

with very young parents who struggled

2:03

to make a living and provide a stable

2:06

home, but she was also

2:08

surrounded by a lot of love and

2:11

a lot of music. She's

2:13

drawn on those roots to build a

2:15

beautiful family of her own with

2:18

her wife Catherine, and their two daughters,

2:21

Evangeline and Elijah.

2:24

Brandy writes about all of this in

2:26

her memoir titled Broken Horses,

2:29

and that's where I wanted to start our

2:31

conversation by asking her what

2:33

it was like to pull up those

2:35

memories, the good, the bad, the

2:38

wonderful and write this incredibly

2:42

open, revealing and compelling

2:44

book.

2:46

I had always kind of mined my past for experience

2:48

and songwriting and things like that, but

2:51

just in little random verse without

2:53

the detail, you know. But when I actually really

2:55

sat down and kind of meditated on it.

2:58

Everything came back smells and floral

3:00

prints on couches and you know,

3:02

whatever vehicle we happened to have at that

3:04

time, and just my childhood became

3:07

really clear and really vivid, and it poured

3:09

out of me. I didn't hesitate. I didn't

3:12

worry about what I was saying about mom or dad

3:14

or you know, my brother and sister, or the way that we

3:16

lived, or what was going on and our

3:18

lives at that time. I didn't think about embarrassment because

3:21

I think in the back of my mind I knew I could always go

3:23

and take anything out, I could edit anything.

3:26

And then I just didn't From

3:28

what I read, not only

3:30

about your parents, but your grandparents

3:33

aunts, uncles, Yeah,

3:35

there was a lot of love, there was a lot of fun,

3:38

and there was a lot of unpredictability, instability

3:41

and chaos. Yeah, that's

3:43

true. How would you describe

3:45

your mom and your dad? You emphasize

3:48

how young they were.

3:49

Yeah, they were, and in some

3:51

ways and that I mean, this is a compliment.

3:54

Are very young, and

3:56

there's an energy about them and the endless

3:59

opportunity for adventure and fun

4:01

and honestly mostly chaos.

4:05

There was always this kind of undercurrent of

4:07

like, well, we're different and we

4:09

don't have to do things the way other people do

4:11

them. And it was like a little bit like

4:13

that film, you know, Captain Fantastic. There

4:15

was a lot of late night discussion,

4:17

and I was privy to a lot of things

4:19

that I don't know if I needed to be privy to. But

4:22

I was also given great wisdom and

4:24

insight at a really young age,

4:26

and for some reason, I just feel like

4:29

I knew what to do with it. And

4:32

that kind of narrative of like we're different,

4:34

we live different was what made

4:37

not being at the same schools, or having a lot of different

4:39

houses, or a little bit of upheaval

4:42

not just okay, but what I thought would be a

4:44

preferable way to grow upright.

4:47

And looking back on it, I don't know

4:49

that I don't feel that way now. I

4:52

feel a pull all the time to

4:54

raise my kids eccentrically with a little bit

4:56

of chaos, a little bit of spontaneity, a little bit of

4:58

we don't know what's going to happen, and

5:01

my wife makes me resistant, but.

5:04

I don't want to leave your childhood yet. Because you can

5:06

also describe the very

5:09

serious illness you had as

5:11

what a four year old? Yeah, can you

5:13

talk about that? Yeah?

5:15

When I was four years old, I

5:18

contracted meninjacock meningitis

5:20

and presented as really,

5:22

really sick. But my mother was

5:24

really young, I want to say, like twenty at the time,

5:27

and knew right away that something was

5:29

wrong. But she was the kind of mom where she thought

5:32

something was wrong all the time. You know, she

5:34

had the speed dial if they even had that, you

5:36

know in nineteen eighty what was this been, nineteen

5:38

eighty five two four nurse, And

5:42

she told my dad that something was really wrong,

5:44

and you know, he didn't believe her, and

5:47

my mom was on the phone with two four nurse and

5:49

two four nurse asked my mom to have

5:51

me touch my chin to my chest, which I guess is like a

5:53

telltale sign that somebody could have meningitis,

5:56

and it made me pass out, and I just

5:58

remember waking up in the backseat

6:00

of the car on my way to the emergency room and

6:03

wound up being in the hospital in a coma

6:05

for quite some time before I came to

6:08

and didn't get out of there till after my fifth

6:10

birthday. And

6:13

there's still a bit of trauma I think for both

6:16

my parents but mostly I think my mother about

6:19

thinking that I wasn't going to pull through that,

6:21

and it gave me a sense of specialness.

6:25

You know, I was the first grandchild on both sides of the

6:27

family, and everybody had

6:29

this kind of Brandy's got a mission thing, and

6:31

it gave me a quite inflated sense of self

6:33

importance.

6:36

What was your earliest memory

6:38

of making or listening to music,

6:41

because the other part of the book, which

6:43

I love is that you had a somewhat musical

6:45

family, and I

6:47

see pictures in the book of you as

6:49

a really little kid, all

6:52

dressed up, You're on stage, you're singing.

6:54

What are your earliest memories?

6:56

There's music on both sides of my family, country

6:59

music and bluegrassm My dad's

7:01

father played dobro and

7:04

followed bluegrass bands around in his

7:06

RV, and I didn't get to spend much time with him

7:09

musically. He was a quiet

7:11

guy that you know. But on my

7:13

mom's side of the family, her dad was a cigar

7:16

salesman and a country music singer and yodeler,

7:18

and he was a very outward personality,

7:21

big influence that I think about

7:23

in here in my head all the time to this day. But

7:25

he died really young of als,

7:27

which is the worst disease

7:29

in the world. And when he

7:32

died, kind of the last thing he did,

7:34

whether he knew it or not, was light

7:36

of fire in my mother to

7:38

continue on the music.

7:40

And she did.

7:41

She took all that grief and that little bit

7:43

of money and got a PA system

7:46

and put together a band and

7:48

started singing and thought to include

7:51

me and my brother. And so I

7:53

was like seven or eight years old the first time I got on

7:55

stage and sang a Roseanne Cash

7:57

song Tennessee flat Top Box at the place

8:00

called the Northwest grand Ole Opry. I just want

8:02

to be a cowgirl.

8:04

I loved that. Well. I

8:06

also really love your mother's gutsiness

8:08

that she got that PA system

8:11

and put herself up there. That is really making

8:13

yourself vulnerable. And I think

8:15

it's another real tribute to her

8:18

as a mom that she knew to include

8:20

you.

8:21

Yeah, and she was really good. She looked

8:23

great, huge hair. You know, she'd

8:25

fixed my hair and put our clothes together and

8:27

everything, and she just yeah, she'd

8:29

always tell me she'd be sitting the front righter, just going

8:31

move Brandy, move your body. Stop wrapping

8:33

the mic cord around your hand.

8:35

Oh God, we're

8:39

taking a quick break. Stay with us. The

8:51

other thing about your upbringing

8:53

is that you know, you grew up in a

8:56

religious family, in a religious community,

9:00

and I really

9:02

like the way that faith

9:04

and spirituality run

9:07

through your story like

9:09

yours. Yeah, like mine exactly,

9:12

and how it evolves. And

9:15

it was so touching to

9:17

me and heartbreaking to

9:20

read your description about

9:23

a pastor refusing to baptize

9:25

you. I guess because he

9:28

knew you were gay and

9:31

insisted that you renounce, literally

9:33

renounce yourself in order to be baptized,

9:36

and you rightly refuse to

9:38

do that. Can you tell that story?

9:40

Yeah, he really knew I was gay. Like that's

9:42

really one of the hardest nuances

9:44

about that stories, that he really

9:46

knew I was gay. Like, I was totally unapologetic

9:48

about it. I presented that way. I

9:50

brought my little girlfriend to church for some reason.

9:54

I don't know why. I didn't expect

9:56

that it was in the sermons,

9:59

it was in the subtext. Next, you know, I

10:01

did have a sense of audacity that I can't

10:03

I would love to reconnect with actually, but

10:07

yeah, he did, And there was like a well,

10:09

the Baptists are very big, by the way, on

10:11

public declarations. Oh yes,

10:13

right, converting to possible public

10:16

humiliation. And I already liked being

10:18

on stage, so you know, I went

10:20

up to the front of the church and on one Sunday

10:22

and said I'd like to be baptized, and was

10:24

applauded and hugged and given

10:27

a schedule of, you know, going to lunch with the

10:29

pastor and learning the things I need to learn

10:31

in the scriptures and understanding what

10:34

was going to take place, inviting people,

10:36

and then got to the church that day to be

10:38

baptized, and our town and

10:41

our family and our friends kind of filled the church, and

10:43

the pastor at the last

10:45

minute asked me, which was I thought was

10:47

really strange, asked me if I

10:49

quote unquote practiced homosexuality,

10:53

and I just remember just furrowed brow looking at him.

10:55

I said, you know, I'm gay. I'm coming to

10:57

church with my girlfriend, you know, and we go we go

11:00

to pizza Hut yesterday, like you know, you know, and

11:02

chose that moment to tell me that he wasn't

11:04

going to baptize me. And I had to kind of run out the

11:07

church in front of everyone. And it's

11:09

probably one of the biggest humiliations in

11:12

my life

11:14

without trying to wrap it up into an attractive

11:17

box and say that everything's fine now. Without

11:20

that experience, I wouldn't have

11:22

known how much support I actually had, how

11:24

upset The people that came to see that

11:27

happen for me were holp set. My dad

11:29

was, and I

11:31

always felt I was kind of gay

11:33

nineties accepted, you know, kind of like

11:36

we accept this, but don't put it in our face kind

11:38

of thing. Until that day

11:40

and everybody becoming so upset, I

11:43

felt, you know, more seen in that way than I ever

11:45

had before, also more rejected than I ever had

11:47

before. But it

11:49

pushed me into another life

11:52

that I needed to be pushed into.

11:55

But also from that time forward,

11:57

you really threw yourself into your

11:59

mute music and thinking

12:01

back to being put on the stage as

12:04

this, you know, little girl, three

12:06

decades of performing and

12:08

of writing. How has your

12:10

relationship to music evolved

12:13

over that period of time. Well,

12:17

I don't know.

12:17

I mean, I think that's the moment that music became

12:20

mine and I just I

12:22

had to really separate my soul

12:24

from some things, you know, And so I

12:27

started getting interested

12:29

in getting on airplane. I started

12:31

getting interested in going to

12:33

a big city, meeting different kinds of people

12:36

and less and less interested in country

12:38

music. I remember that night of

12:40

my botched baptism. I call it

12:44

putting my little CD player Jeff

12:46

Buckley's Grace on repeat on Hallelujah,

12:49

just over and over and over and over again, and

12:52

it occurring to me like I want to leave,

12:55

yeah, And I want to write. I want to write a song like this.

12:57

I don't care if it's a twelve minute song.

13:01

A longer song for a longer story.

13:04

But I also love the way

13:06

that you found some extraordinary

13:10

music icons that became

13:13

mentors. I mean the kind

13:15

of relationship

13:17

that you describe with Alton John

13:20

from a far, far distance. There you are

13:22

in Washington State, Elton's you

13:24

know, in England or Atlanta, wherever

13:26

he might be, and you

13:29

are discovering this extraordinary

13:32

human being, to say nothing of his, you

13:35

know, almost cosmic talent.

13:37

I fall in love with Elton John over

13:39

a six fifth sixth grade book report

13:42

about Ryan White, never hearing

13:44

a note. I loved him because

13:47

of his contribution to this

13:49

boy's life. Who died I think it was

13:51

in nineteen ninety one. It's in the nineties.

13:54

He died of aids. He had hemophilia.

13:56

He contracted AIDS through a blood transfusion. I

13:58

did a book report on him and school. I chose the

14:00

book myself.

14:01

You didn't even know what the book was about.

14:03

I just saw a cute boy on the book

14:06

and I picked it up in the school library and

14:08

I did a book report. And in the end of the book, he

14:10

befriends this British gay rock

14:12

star. He's being politicized, he's

14:14

being asked to become the poster child

14:16

for the church as a

14:18

person affected by sin

14:20

in the world created by homosexual men. And

14:23

this was a subtext that I had

14:25

been taught in church and was thinking

14:27

about this and talking about this a lot in my own

14:29

home. And here's

14:32

this new perspective in a book, Thank God.

14:35

And in the end he meets this rock

14:37

star, and this rock star has got a couple of songs that are mentioned

14:39

in the book, and he sings a song at this kid's funeral

14:41

called Skyline Pigeon. And

14:43

I went to the King County Library and

14:45

checked out the CD here and now Elton

14:47

John CD a couple other Elton John c d's

14:50

in a book by Philip Norman Elton John, Elton John

14:52

and I dove into this rock star, and

14:54

before I ever heard him sing, I was already obsessed with

14:56

him. And then I heard Skyline Pigeon,

14:59

and then I heard Funeral for a Friend and Benny and the

15:01

Jets, and I just I went

15:03

in to everything Elton John. By

15:05

the time I was like fourteen, there

15:07

wasn't a square inch of my bedroom walls that weren't

15:09

covered with Elton John memorabilia.

15:12

I made homemade Elton John jewelry, and

15:17

I began playing piano. My parents got

15:19

me a eighty dollars toys r us Cassio keyboard

15:21

and totally changed my life.

15:24

And yeah, now he's like, he's my friend.

15:27

He is your friend. But Ryan White died

15:29

in nineteen ninety and he

15:32

had such a

15:35

an amazing effect on so many

15:37

people.

15:38

You know.

15:38

There eventually was a piece of legislation,

15:41

the Ryan White Act, to provide more support

15:44

on resources for people living

15:46

with HIV AIDS, and

15:49

Elton just connected

15:51

so immediately with

15:53

this, you know, young boy from Indiana.

15:56

But neither Ryan nor his mother

15:59

ever allowed people if they

16:01

could stop it using them

16:03

in a negative way. I mean, they

16:06

were big hearted, they were open

16:09

minded, and I want

16:11

to just make one other point, you

16:13

got that book about Ryan White

16:15

in your school library. There

16:18

are people right now

16:20

who want to take a book like that out of

16:23

public school libraries. You

16:25

know, impressionable children shouldn't be

16:27

learning about Ryan White. You

16:30

know. It's just another perfect example

16:32

among countless examples of why,

16:35

you know, we have to stand up for the right

16:37

of kids to you know, seek out

16:39

and find information, and obviously

16:41

a school library is one of the

16:43

best ways to do that. When and how

16:45

did you finally meet Elton in person?

16:48

First of all, that's a really really good point. And

16:51

books like that that I had access to and my

16:53

school sculpted a lot of things about my life,

16:55

and that's just one of the many that gave me, you

16:58

know, the worldview that propelled me forward

17:00

in really really big ways. So

17:02

I love that you made that point. What was the

17:05

second question, Yeah, When and where did you

17:07

meet Elton? Okay, So I

17:09

met Elton just like you'd hope I would,

17:12

in a Las Vegas casino basement recording

17:14

studio. He

17:18

called me like ten years prior to that, or it

17:20

was me five years prior to that when I put out

17:22

the story, but I hadn't met him yet, and I

17:25

always wanted to meet him. I wrote him a letter when

17:27

I made my album give Up the Ghost, and

17:29

asked him to play piano in one of my songs, and

17:31

he just he called me up and said, yeah, can

17:34

you get to Vegas? So I did. Oh, and

17:37

I just never forget it because I remember coming down

17:39

this corridor and I could hear him talking, and

17:42

I had all of the every live VHS

17:45

tape that he had ever recorded, every interview,

17:47

and I'm like, oh my god, that's Elton. I'm

17:50

gonna walk around the corner and I'm gonna

17:52

see Elton John sitting there. And

17:54

I did, and he was sitting there in a tracksuit, and

17:56

he just gave me an enormous hug and then stayed

17:58

with me all day for four hours, just talked to me

18:00

about music, just gave me everything

18:03

that I could have ever hoped to be given

18:05

by meeting my very

18:07

worthy hero. And by the time

18:10

I got home, he'd sent me one hundred CDs

18:13

with sticky notes.

18:14

Oh oh,

18:17

talk about the day that you found

18:19

out you were the most nominated

18:21

woman of the twenty nineteen Grammys.

18:24

Described that because to me, it just

18:26

blended so much about what your life

18:28

is like right now.

18:30

I mean it was the middle of the night because we're on the West

18:32

coast and I just got the phone

18:34

call that from relative

18:36

obscurity. In terms of

18:38

the Grammys, I had been nominated

18:41

for six of them, and I

18:43

was just in total disbelief. I knew it was going to be

18:45

a watershed moment. I knew it was going to change my life, and

18:48

it really did. Mean it was my publicistant

18:51

friend Asha, She's just like, they just kept saying

18:53

your name.

18:54

You know.

18:54

I wasn't even awake. It was pitch dark, and I woke

18:57

up everybody in my house. But you

18:59

know, I mean, you know, because you're

19:01

a Grammy winner, right, Yeah, that's

19:03

right for the spoken word, that's true for the

19:05

spoken where's your Grammy? I'm looking for it in the background.

19:07

I don't see it. I have

19:10

it in our library. It's part of history.

19:12

Okay, Well,

19:15

before we go, I have to ask you.

19:17

I know you love fishing, and

19:20

you know you write in the book nothing's

19:23

really ever got a hold

19:25

of me the way fishing and

19:28

music have. Okay,

19:31

what is the biggest fish you've ever

19:33

caught? And was it the same

19:35

feeling you had when you got all those Grammys.

19:38

It was the same feeling, I mean, nearly

19:41

identical, because, as

19:44

I said in the book, fishing is merely

19:47

an attempt to connect to something that you know is

19:49

there but can't see a perpetual

19:51

series of occasions for hope. The

19:55

biggest fish I ever caught was

19:57

in Alaska on the Kenai

19:59

River. It's a forty three pound

20:02

king salmon.

20:03

That's one big fish.

20:05

You know.

20:05

I've actually fished for salmon in

20:07

Alaska, and those

20:10

fish are big. They

20:12

are big, that's right. And they're delicious

20:14

too. Did they pack your fish and prepare

20:16

it so that you could go and eat it later? I

20:18

prepared it. You prepared it?

20:20

No, girl, But

20:23

you know something about that?

20:24

Huh oh yeah, Oh my gosh.

20:27

But I also love I mean, your definition

20:29

of fishing is almost like a perfect

20:31

definition of faith. I'm going to remember

20:33

that. I think that that's exactly what I parallel

20:35

it with. Well, Randy Carlia, I

20:37

cannot thank you enough. This was such a

20:40

true delight. Do you have any parting

20:42

words or any yeah,

20:45

I singing words or anything you want to leave

20:47

us with.

20:47

I cannot tell you how much talking

20:49

to you today has meant to me,

20:52

and I almost can't do anything else

20:54

for the rest of the day. Now, I just I

20:56

think that you are such a special person.

20:58

You're such a gift to the world and a gift in my

21:00

life. You know the song we keep skimming

21:03

over, the joke that I sang at the Grammys.

21:05

I wrote that first line in the second

21:07

verse about you. Oh,

21:10

I'm getting over a cult, so I'm gonna do my best. You

21:14

get discouraged, don't you.

21:15

Girl.

21:17

It's your brother's world for

21:19

a little.

21:19

While, Longer, a

21:23

little while.

21:24

Just a little while, younger, not

21:27

too much, Thank you, Thank

21:29

you.

21:36

Randy Carlyle's memoir is Broken

21:38

Horses. One

21:42

of my favorite shows on Broadway

21:44

in recent years is the Tony

21:46

Award winning Best Musical

21:49

Hades Town. In this

21:51

modern retelling of Orpheus

21:54

and Iriticy, the character

21:56

of Hermes, messenger to the gods,

21:58

carries us through the entire show,

22:01

and who better to play a god

22:04

than the larger than life personality

22:06

Andre Deshields. Following

22:09

a shutdown during the pandemic, Hadestown

22:12

is up and running again

22:15

with Andrea at the helm. But

22:17

this is just the latest chapter

22:19

in his long and glorious

22:22

history. At age seventy

22:24

six. Andre has been performing

22:27

in the theater for over fifty

22:30

years, starting with his professional

22:32

debut in the hit rock

22:35

musical Hair Back in nineteen

22:37

sixty nine and I hate

22:40

to tell you that I actually saw

22:42

it way back then. But

22:45

since then he's appeared on film

22:47

and TV and in more musicals

22:50

like The Whiz and Ain't Misbehavin.

22:53

Three Tony Award nominations and

22:55

one win later, He's

22:57

truly a living legend of

23:00

the stage. Andre was

23:02

born in the nineteen forties and

23:04

grew up in Baltimore as the

23:06

ninth of eleven siblings.

23:09

His mother was a domestic worker,

23:11

his father was a tailor. The

23:14

stories he tells of how he got

23:16

from there to here,

23:18

always believing in himself

23:21

along the way, or an inspiration

23:24

to anyone with a

23:26

dream of making it, of making

23:28

something that you really can be proud

23:31

of. I was so delighted

23:33

to speak with him. Good

23:36

morning, Oh, good morning. I

23:38

love your red background. Wow.

23:42

We may not know this, it's my aura.

23:44

I can understand that, my friend. You

23:47

know. I was privileged,

23:49

as you know, to see you in Hadestown,

23:52

for which you won a Tony in

23:54

twenty nineteen. Yes, as

23:57

you marked your fiftieth

23:59

anniversary of working on the stage,

24:02

and I want to go back to

24:04

the beginning because I want our listeners to have

24:06

a little idea of where you

24:09

come from, what your roots

24:11

are. I think it's really

24:14

a great American story, but it's more

24:16

attribute to your energy and your

24:18

resilience and your determination in

24:20

your aura. So what type of kid were

24:22

you? Andre? Were you shy?

24:25

Were you somebody who liked attention?

24:28

I know you were one of eleven kids.

24:31

My roots are in Baltimore, Maryland, and

24:34

I would not describe myself as

24:36

shy. I would describe

24:39

myself as secretly

24:41

ambitious. I

24:43

come from meager beginnings

24:47

and that was my impetus

24:50

to achieve. There

24:53

were very few of us who lived

24:55

in the innermost of the

24:58

inner cities in Baltimore

25:00

who dared to dream. We

25:03

were not encouraged to dream.

25:06

We were not encouraged to be ambitious.

25:08

We were not encouraged to think

25:11

that we could have a slice of

25:14

the vaunted American pie.

25:18

But that was my first conscious

25:21

thoughts. I want my

25:24

slice of the American pie.

25:27

Did anyone in your family know

25:29

about your dream? Encourage your dream?

25:31

Yes, everyone knew about my

25:34

dream. I shared it with everyone.

25:37

I wanted to be Sammy Davis

25:39

Junior, who arguingly

25:43

is the greatest entertainer

25:46

of the tween kidh century. However,

25:50

the response was, oh,

25:53

you must be out of your mind. So

25:57

when I didn't get the biscerport,

26:01

I thought, well, let me put

26:03

this in my vest close

26:06

to my heart. Let

26:08

me keep it there so it wouldn't

26:10

be sullied.

26:12

So Andre, tell us about your parents.

26:15

They clearly had some kind

26:17

of influence on you, as all parents

26:20

do, one way or the other, and tell us about

26:22

that.

26:24

When I was old enough to have an

26:26

adult conversation with my

26:29

mother and father, my

26:32

mother shared with me that

26:34

her life's dream was to be a chorus

26:36

girl. And I thought

26:38

what she said? Yes,

26:41

she didn't use the term dancers. She said chorus

26:43

girl, my parents having been

26:45

born around the turn of the twentieth century.

26:48

And I said, so what happened?

26:53

Her response was her

26:56

father said to

26:58

her, colored

27:01

daughter of mine is

27:03

going to shuffle her way

27:06

through life. We've

27:08

hardly shuffled our way off the plantation.

27:12

Now that is very meaningful

27:14

for me, because my maternal

27:17

grandfather was the son

27:20

of his master. So

27:24

I decided, with that information I should

27:26

ask my father amazingly,

27:30

but in retrospect not amazingly

27:33

at all. His response

27:35

was his life dream was

27:37

he wanted to be a singer. He had

27:39

a beautiful tone of voice, and

27:41

he sang in church, and he had a

27:44

club that he sang with. And

27:46

I said, well, what happened to that dream?

27:50

He said, his father,

27:53

my paternal grandfather, said,

27:56

how do you expect to be a responsible

27:59

husband? And father was such

28:01

an irresponsible career. I

28:05

tell that story because what

28:08

happened is that both my parents

28:10

deferred their

28:12

dreams. I believe

28:16

that I am the manifestation of

28:19

those deferred dreams, because

28:22

from the morning on a cold

28:25

January day that I

28:27

was evicted from my mother's womb,

28:30

that was imprinted on

28:33

my spirit. You are

28:35

the manifestation of the

28:37

deferred dreams of your parents.

28:41

I've never had a question about

28:44

my path in life.

28:45

That's a great manifestation.

28:48

I knew that in order

28:50

to overcome these

28:54

invisible but seeming,

28:56

the insurmountable walls that

28:58

we build around ourselves

29:01

when we are constantly told

29:05

that we cannot achieve, and

29:08

that there is a

29:11

demarcation in the society

29:13

that says you

29:16

stay where you are, there

29:18

is no mobility.

29:20

Yeah right, yeah right, And you

29:22

know, sadly it is

29:24

as you just said, sometimes

29:26

from the people that you're living with,

29:29

people who love you, who are

29:31

afraid.

29:32

For you, and they want to protect

29:34

you.

29:34

They want to protect you, and they unfortunately

29:37

often evidence that in a way that you

29:39

know, kind of tries to pull you down or push

29:41

you back so that you don't get out into that world

29:43

where you will get hurt. And then of course

29:46

on the receiving end, you've got people

29:48

who are you know, not expecting

29:51

much or who are outright,

29:53

you know, prejudiced and biased against

29:56

you and your dream.

29:57

I want to say something about

30:00

protecting people. I

30:03

know it is meant

30:06

for good, but you cannot

30:08

protect an individual from

30:11

himself. You cannot

30:13

protect an individual from his ambition.

30:16

You cannot protect an individual

30:19

from his destiny. You

30:21

have to encourage an

30:24

individual, especially when

30:26

he's young. You

30:28

must say, go forth

30:31

and be the most authentic individual

30:34

that you can.

30:37

I want to ask one last question about

30:39

this. So when was the first time

30:41

you performed in public and

30:43

you knew that the dream

30:45

was not just a dream you kept close to your heart,

30:48

it could be your reality.

30:50

After the dream that I was protecting,

30:54

I had the epiphany,

30:57

and that was seeing the film Cabin

30:59

in the Guy John

31:02

Bubbles Sublette. When I

31:04

saw his performance in Cabin in the Sky,

31:07

the quiet voice that lives

31:10

in the core of our souls and speaks

31:12

to us only the truth, said

31:15

to me, Andre, that's

31:17

what you're going to do.

31:19

Because all of a sudden you had an

31:22

epiphany. Because you know, there's that

31:24

old saying you can't be what you can't

31:26

see exactly, and

31:28

you saw it.

31:29

I saw it. So as

31:32

a young precocious Negro

31:35

boy in Baltimore. You

31:37

know about the society of friends, Yes,

31:40

I do. They came to me through

31:43

the Central Scholarship Bureau

31:45

and said, you're a young

31:47

man with potential. We

31:50

would like to offer you a

31:52

scholarship to go to college. The

31:55

condition is that you must attend the college

31:58

of our choice. I

32:00

jumped at the opportunity, the first

32:03

child in the family to

32:06

go to college. Wilmington

32:08

College in Wilmington, Ohio,

32:12

a pristine, intimate

32:15

Quaker school. And

32:17

when I was going to college, and I know you remember

32:20

this, it was derry girl to

32:22

do your junior year abroad.

32:26

I did my junior year in

32:28

Denmark, and when I

32:30

arrived in Denmark, I

32:33

was received as

32:35

the very opposite to the way

32:37

I had been treated in Baltimore.

32:40

In Baltimore, in many ways, I was

32:42

discoming the earth, and I'm not

32:45

exaggerating. In

32:47

Denmark, I was royalty. Can

32:50

I touch your skin? Can I touch

32:52

your Can I touch your hair?

32:55

I'm not kidding.

32:56

There was in nineteen sixty seven. It

32:59

blew through my mind. It

33:01

opened my eyes to

33:04

not only the place in which I had

33:06

arrived, but the place from

33:08

where I had come. And

33:10

at that time, all

33:13

the major cities were experiencing

33:17

their urban insurrections, and

33:19

I thought to myself, that's

33:21

where I come from. So

33:24

when I return, I

33:27

have to leave that pristine

33:30

Quaker environment and

33:33

go to where the

33:35

veil was being ripped from

33:38

the eyes of political

33:40

America. So I ended

33:42

up at the University of Wisconsin, one

33:45

of the hot beds of political change.

33:48

You did jump right in, right

33:50

right. But

33:53

what an incredible realization

33:56

that you had about yourself

33:58

and your life as a relativetively young person.

34:00

I mean, you're still what nineteen twenty years

34:03

old when you decide exactly nineteen,

34:05

I've got to get out into

34:07

this world that's waiting for me. I've got

34:09

an idea. Now where I came from and

34:11

where I want to go. You graduated

34:14

from Wisconsin Universe

34:16

consin to Madison in I think nineteen

34:18

seventy right.

34:19

And the month I graduated, I won

34:22

a position in Tom o'horgan's hair.

34:26

That's so great.

34:28

That was my first professional performance.

34:30

Now that's the equation

34:34

I want to share with anybody who's

34:36

curious about ambition,

34:39

accomplishment, destiny,

34:42

any of those huge ideas.

34:45

First you must have the dream. Second,

34:47

you must have the epiphany. The third

34:50

part of the equation is once

34:52

on that Thursday, when

34:55

someone comes to you and puts a

34:57

check in your hand and

34:59

pay for the dream

35:02

that has now become the work. That's

35:06

the equation. From there,

35:08

your destiny will rise up,

35:11

shake your hand and say welcome. I've been waiting

35:13

for you all this time.

35:16

But the epiphany and the opportunity

35:19

also requires work.

35:22

Once you were offered that position, you

35:24

know in hair, you had to put

35:26

in the work, didn't you.

35:28

That is correct, But the work starts

35:31

long before the paycheck arrives.

35:34

You know. It strikes me that it was in

35:36

the Wiz that you had your incredible

35:39

breakout national moment, and

35:42

how appropriate it is that a

35:44

musical retelling of the Wizard

35:46

of Oz through Black culture and music

35:49

would be the groundbreaking success

35:51

it was, and also your opportunity

35:54

to manifest that dream. How

35:56

did you end up in the Wiz?

35:58

So I had gotten my first

36:01

professional gig in Chicago. We're

36:04

in the early seventies now,

36:07

and we are creating an

36:09

off loop theatrical

36:11

experience, which is tantamount

36:15

to what we call off Broadway. And

36:18

a group of us from the University of Wisconsin

36:21

founded the Organic Theater Company

36:24

and created a show called

36:27

Warp Warp.

36:30

It's the science fiction show. Producer

36:33

saw it and thought, wow, this would go well

36:35

in New York. He brought

36:37

us to New York in nineteen seventy three.

36:40

We were sumarily dismissed

36:43

by the New York critics and

36:46

the consensus was,

36:48

listen, you dirty foot hippies,

36:50

go back to Chicago now.

36:54

When the company returned to Chicago,

36:57

I said, guys, I

37:00

love you all. You've been my family for four

37:02

years. But now that I'm in New

37:04

York, I'm going to take my chances

37:07

here. And

37:09

by the grace of four women

37:12

friends of mine who were in New York

37:14

working, and these

37:17

four women would allow me to

37:19

couch surf, take

37:21

care of my cat, and you can sleep on my couch.

37:23

Wash my dishes and you can sleep on my couch,

37:26

and that sort of thing. As my

37:28

mother would say. I didn't have a pot

37:30

to piss in or a window to throw it out of.

37:34

But I was right. But

37:37

I was in the camelot.

37:39

All I had to do was to discover

37:42

my coat of arms, if you will. Ken

37:45

Harper, the producer of The Whiz, cast

37:48

a net. We are looking for

37:51

the actress who would essay

37:53

these roles. I got an

37:55

audition. I was cut for

37:57

the scarecrow. I was cut

38:00

for the Lion. I was cut

38:02

for the tin Man. Didn't matter

38:04

to me because I wanted to be the

38:07

Wizard. But

38:09

I had to beg for it. And

38:12

Ken Harper said

38:14

to me, all right, I think he thought he was

38:16

getting rid of me. Will allow

38:19

you to audition for the Wiz. Now.

38:22

When I got the call back, I

38:25

had pulled my hair out

38:27

to it's Jimmy Hendricks

38:30

length. I was

38:32

wearing my five inch

38:34

silver study platforms.

38:37

I was wearing my hot pants.

38:39

I was wearing my halter that had love

38:42

embroidered all over it. I was wearing

38:44

my misie earrings. I

38:47

was glorious

38:52

and I went in and

38:55

I sang and I think this

38:57

is part of your growing up too.

39:00

Midnight hour. Oh

39:02

perfect right.

39:04

I'm going a way till the midnight

39:07

hour. So I get to the end

39:09

of the song and Charlie Small's, who

39:13

was the composer for The Wiz, stands

39:15

up and shouts, that's my

39:17

Wiz.

39:19

Hallelujah, hallelujah.

39:21

That's what I'm talking about. When

39:23

you do the proper preparation, the

39:26

destiny unfolds in one

39:29

golden step after the next, not

39:31

immediately. It takes time.

39:34

But if you continue to apply

39:37

yourself, if you continue

39:39

to cultivate patience,

39:43

if you continue to

39:45

know yourself and be yourself

39:47

and understand that authenticity

39:50

is everything, you

39:52

will receive the blessing that

39:55

has your name written on it.

39:57

I love that you know, you

40:00

know. So much of what happens in live

40:02

theater is ephemeral, but The

40:05

Wiz was one of those moments

40:08

where it was just like a great

40:12

earthquake came down from

40:14

on high and shook

40:16

the foundation of American musical

40:19

theater. In fact, I think your costume is

40:21

now in the Smithsonian that

40:23

is correct. National Museum of

40:25

African American History and Culture.

40:28

Did you know when you were in the Wiz it

40:31

was literally a moment of destiny for the

40:33

culture.

40:34

Yes, we all knew as

40:36

a community that

40:39

we were part of a tectonic

40:42

change in a paradigm,

40:45

because prior to the

40:47

Whiz, the only impact

40:51

that black culture had

40:53

on Broadway had

40:55

come many years earlier

40:58

with Lorraine Hansby Raising

41:01

in the Sun. It

41:03

was time that the

41:06

traditionally inhospitable

41:08

terrain of the Great White Way

41:12

underwent the conditioning for

41:15

what we now call diversity,

41:17

equity, and inclusion.

41:20

We didn't use those terms in the

41:22

early seventies, but

41:25

we knew that we were setting

41:29

the stage for

41:32

a change. And here's

41:35

the miracle of the Whiz. Stephanie

41:38

Mills played the role

41:40

of Dorothy. Once

41:43

you see Dorothy as

41:46

a young girl of color,

41:49

that is what universalizes

41:52

the message of the Wiz,

41:55

which is there's no place

41:58

like home. That's

42:00

a great lesson to learn. That's one of the greatest lessons

42:02

to learn in someone's life.

42:05

It is we go searching for our

42:07

purpose everywhere, and

42:10

then at some point we learn, oh,

42:13

there's no place like home. As

42:15

long as that was the exclusive domain

42:19

of a young, although brilliant

42:22

white girl. It didn't

42:24

resonate for the

42:26

majority of

42:29

young people. Once

42:31

Dorothy has melanin

42:34

in her skin, then that message

42:37

of there's no place like

42:39

home becomes.

42:40

Universal, becomes a message for

42:42

everybody, everybody.

42:47

We'll be right back. Well.

42:58

You know. The other thing that, of course I

43:00

love, is in Hadestown, where

43:03

you are again starring, which

43:05

I also think of as a groundbreaking

43:08

musical. You're

43:11

playing a Greek god,

43:13

Kermes, and you are omniscient.

43:16

You are someone who is like

43:18

leading the whole audience and all

43:20

of us through the

43:23

story. I loved your performance.

43:25

Thank you, Thank you, absolutely just

43:28

was knocked out when I think about

43:30

it. Though. You are now again

43:32

because after the pandemic, Hadestown

43:35

reopened, so you're back on the

43:37

stage. You are, I

43:39

think, still doing eight shows a week.

43:41

Eight shows.

43:42

Look, that's not an easy schedule at any

43:45

age, any age. And

43:47

when you accepted your Tony Award,

43:49

I'll never forget this in twenty

43:51

nineteen, you shared with

43:53

the audience your three Carnival

43:56

rules for sustainability

43:59

and long ngevity, and although you put it in

44:01

the context of the arts, I

44:03

would say I think these are pretty good rules

44:06

for anybody. Could you share

44:08

them with our listeners on

44:10

this podcast.

44:11

I'd be happy to the context

44:14

in which I learned it was the

44:16

arts. Anything you want

44:18

to do, anything that you

44:20

want to master, will

44:23

be enhanced if the

44:26

arts are part of your preparation.

44:29

You don't have to become an actor. You

44:31

don't have to dance, you don't have to sing.

44:34

You just have to bebble the

44:37

hard edges by

44:39

saying or

44:41

understanding that you

44:44

are an artist. You

44:46

are a good mother, you

44:49

have cultivated the art of parenthood.

44:52

You're a good construction worker. You've

44:55

mastered the art of building

44:57

things. You are

44:59

a good cleaner, garbage

45:01

collector, you have massive the art

45:04

of sanitation. Cultivate

45:07

the artistry of whatever it is

45:09

you do, and then you can apply

45:11

these three cardinal rules

45:14

Colnal rule number one. Surround

45:17

yourself with people whose

45:19

eyes light up when

45:21

they see you coming Coldinal

45:25

rule number two. Slowly

45:28

is the fastest way to get to where

45:30

you want to be. Colon

45:33

the rule number three. The

45:35

top of one mountain is

45:38

the bottom of the next, so

45:40

keep climbing.

45:44

I really appreciate the way that

45:46

you took those cardinal

45:49

rules and expanded them to

45:51

what we do in our everyday lives, making

45:53

it clear everybody can be an artist. Yes in

45:55

his or her own way.

45:56

Yes, do what you can do. It's

45:59

a potlucks, bring

46:01

your best dish.

46:07

You Literally, I could talk to you

46:09

all day, my friend. I just wish you all

46:12

of the blessings of

46:14

this extraordinary life

46:16

that you're leading. May

46:19

it continue with joy

46:21

and gratitude and you continue

46:23

to find ways to share it with Thank you. It really

46:25

means the world to me personally.

46:28

May I have the last word?

46:31

Yes, you may.

46:33

Hillary Rodham, Clinton, Madam

46:36

President, Thank

46:38

you for allowing me to have this

46:41

conversation with you. I'm

46:44

taking it to everyone

46:47

whose eyes light up when they

46:49

see me.

46:50

Come You

47:05

and Me Both. Is brought to you by iHeartRadio.

47:08

We're produced by Julie Subren, Kathleen

47:10

Russo and Rob Russo, with

47:13

help from Juma Aberdeen, Oscar

47:15

Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna

47:18

Johnson, Nick Merrill, Lona

47:20

Valmorro and Benita Zuman.

47:23

Our engineer is Zach McNeice

47:25

and the original music is by Forrest

47:27

Gray. If you like you and

47:29

Me Both, tell someone else about it,

47:32

and if you're not already a subscriber, what

47:34

are you waiting for? You can subscribe

47:36

to you and me both on the iHeartRadio

47:39

app, Apple Podcasts, or

47:41

wherever you get your podcasts.

47:43

Thanks for listening, and, as Andre

47:46

says, keep climbing. I'll

47:48

see you next week.