0:00

You and Me Both is a production of

0:02

I Heart Radio. I'm

0:06

Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me

0:08

Both, where I get to talk to people who

0:10

are doing extraordinary things. You

0:13

know, the holidays are upon us, and while

0:15

we may not be able to gather with friends

0:18

and family the way we wish we could,

0:20

we can still take pleasure in another

0:23

important tradition, making

0:25

and eating food. Today,

0:28

we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk

0:30

about, you know, food insecurity

0:33

because for many people, food

0:35

is in short supply, whether because of

0:37

the pandemic and economic crisis,

0:39

or maybe natural disasters,

0:41

or because of the everyday

0:43

reality that millions live with.

0:46

And then we've got the insecurities in the

0:49

restaurant industry when it comes

0:51

to trying to keep businesses open,

0:54

trying to be safe but also

0:56

produce a good product in these tumultuous

0:59

times. Of course, then on a lighter

1:01

level, there's a fact most of us just don't

1:03

feel all that secure when it comes to

1:05

cooking at all. Well, we're going to

1:07

get into all of that. We're

1:14

gonna hear from chef Jose Andreas,

1:16

known for his Michelin Star restaurants

1:19

and for his work bringing food

1:21

to people in Moments of Crisis.

1:24

I'll also be talking to Rocco de

1:26

Fasio, the owner of de Fasio's

1:28

Pizzeria in Troy, New York,

1:31

which makes some of the most delicious

1:33

pizza I've ever had. But

1:36

first, Samine noz rap

1:38

I was so excited to talk to Sami.

1:41

Not only is she the author of the cookbook

1:44

Salt, Fat, Acid Heat,

1:46

which is also a Netflix series,

1:49

she got her start learning from a chef

1:52

I've admired for a really long

1:54

time, Alice Waters at

1:56

Chaponnese in Berkeley, California.

1:59

Hello, Secretary Clinton. Oh

2:01

s mean, you've got a whole podcast

2:04

set up going there. I love it. That

2:07

is so cool. You

2:09

know, I've read so much about

2:11

you. How you came to

2:14

cooking, and then you know, working in restaurants

2:16

and becoming a chef, and then food

2:18

writing and and all of it

2:21

is really interesting to me because

2:24

although I love to eat, I am

2:26

not someone who is a

2:28

natural in the kitchen. Let me just say

2:30

that, despite my best

2:32

efforts. So give me a little bit about

2:35

your background. I know you were raised in California,

2:38

You're the child of immigrants

2:40

from Iran, But how did you end up

2:42

doing what you're doing well. I also was

2:44

not a natural in the kitchen. I definitely

2:47

came to the kitchen through eating, through

2:49

the love of eating, and my

2:52

parents came to California from Iran,

2:54

and my mom really wanted

2:56

to instill in me and my brother's a sense

2:58

of our culture through our food.

3:01

And I think, you know what I've

3:03

come to learn as I've grown up and

3:05

become a cook and just a person in

3:07

the world meeting people from all over the world,

3:09

is that food is a way that people

3:12

really connect to their family

3:14

history. And especially if

3:16

you are forced to leave

3:19

where you're from, you know, it's a way that you connect

3:21

to your homeland. And so for my mom,

3:23

I think in the seventies and eighties in

3:25

southern California, there weren't a

3:27

lot of our traditional ingredients from Meran

3:30

available, so she really made it her

3:32

full time job to sort of traverse the

3:34

city and even the state to find

3:37

the flavors of home. And she

3:40

is an extraordinary cook. But like a lot of

3:42

immigrants, what she wanted for me and my brothers

3:44

was for us to succeed at school and

3:47

to be really sort of successful in

3:49

life. And so she didn't want me to be a cook.

3:51

She didn't want me in the kitchen. She wanted me doing

3:53

my homework. So apart from like a

3:55

few sort of cleaning fava beans

3:58

or the occasional picking herbs,

4:01

I was not really in the kitchen, although

4:03

I will say she had a lot of sort of hippie

4:06

tendencies. So we

4:08

you know, we didn't have a lot of desserts in the house, and

4:11

so if we wanted anything like

4:13

that, we had to make the dessert

4:15

ourselves. That's a good rule. Yeah,

4:17

So I did do a little bit of baking

4:19

as a kid, and that was something I did do. I

4:22

have to say that among my

4:25

friends and acquaintances in the

4:27

Iranian American community, there's

4:29

a lot of emphasis on keeping

4:32

that cultural connection

4:35

to Iran to their

4:37

Persian past by the food.

4:39

Absolutely, did that make you feel

4:42

a little bit like an outsider when

4:44

you were growing up? I think I always felt

4:46

like an outsider. And definitely, you know,

4:48

my mom would make us our delicious We

4:50

have this um kind of a fritatic called cuckoo

4:53

sabz and so she would make that and then

4:55

we would have cuckoo sandwiches for lunch.

4:57

And no other kids had that in their boxes.

5:00

So I was very aware of having

5:03

different foods, and you know that my

5:05

foods looked and smelled different, and I

5:07

was made fun of that. You know, I was

5:09

very aware of being different, and I've always

5:11

felt like an outsider. And now

5:14

I think that in a lot of ways, that's the

5:16

source of probably my strength, and

5:18

it's definitely what kind of guides

5:21

all of the choices I make in all of my work

5:23

and in all of the things that I want to do, because

5:26

I don't really ever want to make anyone feel

5:28

that way, So I try to create work that

5:30

makes everyone feel included. I

5:32

love that. So when

5:34

did you begin to realize

5:37

that you wanted to go from admiring

5:39

your mother's cooking and the efforts she put into

5:42

it into wanting to cook, and not just

5:44

in your home kitchen, but in the

5:46

outside world. It was just total serendipity.

5:50

I moved to Northern California for college

5:52

in Berkeley, and my sophomore

5:54

year I fell in love and my boyfriend was

5:57

from the Bay Area. In a big way of how

5:59

we spent our time together was eating

6:01

food and so um. He had always

6:03

wanted to eat at a restaurant called Japanese

6:06

and you know, to me, I just knew it as a

6:08

fancy restaurant. I didn't really know anything about

6:11

it, and so we had

6:13

this kind of like change box that we saved

6:15

all of our laundry quarters in, and

6:18

and then eventually we went and ate there and we had

6:20

kind of what ultimately was a life changing

6:22

meal, not so much in that it was like this

6:24

kind of mind blowingly delicious meal. It

6:27

was delicious, but for me it was the first time

6:29

I ate in a restaurant that felt like

6:32

almost like eating in the best kind of someone's

6:34

home, where just every

6:37

thing that you could possibly want

6:39

was there for you. It was just it was

6:41

magical. It was magical. So

6:44

you had this incredible meal,

6:47

and then what happened. You know, I always

6:49

had jobs throughout college, and so it inspired

6:51

me to ask for a job bussing

6:53

tables, which I did, and at

6:55

the time, I was um studying to be a poet

6:58

actually really Luke Wort of

7:00

Careopathy, and

7:04

so as I was kind of nearing graduation,

7:06

I was sort of struck by this panic of like,

7:08

oh, I'm an English major skills,

7:11

what am I going to do? And at the same time,

7:13

I was every day going to work in

7:16

this amazing sort of sensory

7:18

temple, and so I was watching

7:21

cooks. I was watching chefs who are the best at

7:23

what they did, cook the most beautiful

7:25

dishes, and it was so inspiring

7:28

that within just a few weeks I still have my journals.

7:30

Within just a few weeks, I was like, Wow,

7:32

maybe one day I could do that. So I

7:35

started begging them to let me in the kitchen,

7:37

and eventually they said, we can't,

7:40

really, like, this will never go anywhere unless

7:42

you really commit to it, because there are people,

7:44

you know, lining up from culinary schools

7:46

and kitchens around the world to work here.

7:49

So they gave me a stack of cookbooks,

7:51

you know, thirty books high, and they said, you have to go read

7:53

these, and you need to commit

7:55

to doing unpaid internship and

7:57

you have to have years of sort of paying

8:00

your dues before this will turn into

8:02

anything. And so I did that,

8:04

and eventually I got hired. And

8:06

actually, I have a really funny story that I'm so

8:08

excited to tell you, because

8:11

if I'm not mistaken, one of

8:13

the themes of our conversation today is insecurities,

8:16

right, like mistakes and learning along the way.

8:19

And so I had this one week where

8:21

every single day I went to work, I had these

8:23

colossal failures day after

8:26

day after a day, for two days in a row,

8:28

I ruined huge batches of rice, which,

8:30

as an Iranian person is like, my gosh,

8:32

yeah, that's supposed to be at

8:37

And then the third day, we were

8:39

preparing to host

8:42

some sort of like picnic and Golden

8:44

Gate Park for you. Oh my gosh. I

8:47

remember that it was going to be like a barbecue

8:49

or something long tables, and

8:52

so there was a dish that I was making

8:55

that had an element in common with something

8:57

that we were going to serve at your dinner, at your lunch.

8:59

Maybe it was like a pork sauce of

9:01

some kind. So they said, well, since that's going to

9:03

be the same thing for I think at the time you were

9:05

First Lady, So for First Lady Clinton's

9:08

lunch, then go ahead and just double

9:10

the batch, double the batch of sauce. And

9:13

I probably had made this thing two times

9:15

before, but I was like, okay, I can do

9:17

this. So what it was was it's a pork

9:19

sauce, which is kind of like a rich stock.

9:22

So it was like I had to roast these bones

9:24

and put them in a pot and then pour like rich

9:26

chicken stock that we had already made. You know, it takes

9:28

a whole day to make and pour that over

9:31

it and simmer it for another day and then

9:33

reduce that into this delicious sauce.

9:36

So I did that. I just made twice

9:38

as much, and I put it in this humongous pot and

9:40

you're supposed to bring it to a boil and then turn it

9:42

down to a simmer and you kind of can forget about it.

9:44

And then maybe like forty five minutes later, there was

9:46

this really bad smell, like really bad.

9:49

Oh no. I just kept being like, who's

9:51

ruining something? Like everyone who could be doing

9:53

that? Yeah? I was like, someone's really making

9:55

something smell really bad. It

9:59

just didn't even a ocurred to me that could possibly

10:01

be my thing, So I just let it keep

10:03

going. Oh my god.

10:06

And then eventually the chef came and he realized,

10:08

like he was like, you have ruined

10:10

like hundreds of dollars worth of bones

10:12

and stock. He was so

10:15

mad at me. And what I didn't understand,

10:17

because I'd never done it before, was that all

10:20

of the weight of these many pounds of bones

10:22

had like compressed down at the

10:24

bottom of the pot and because I cranked up

10:26

the heat. It was just like settled on

10:28

this burner, just burning, you

10:30

know, and I felt so terrible, and to me

10:32

I wrote about in my book and I was like, and then I ruined,

10:34

you know, first Lady Clintons sauce.

10:37

And so I

10:40

do remember the lunch. I don't

10:42

remember how beautiful. It was, a typical

10:44

Alice Waters special. How long

10:46

were you at shapinice um so that

10:48

first round? I was there about three and a half

10:51

years, and then I went to Italy and

10:53

then I went back for another couple of years. What

10:55

was the experience like in Italy? Was that dramatically

10:58

different? I had always wanted to go

11:01

to Italy, and I think in

11:03

certain ways there might

11:05

be parts of Iranian culture and Italian culture

11:07

that are very similar. Certainly the love of food

11:09

and family and so certain

11:11

things about it felt really familiar. And

11:14

in Shapanese and in this

11:16

kind of like California cooking, we

11:18

have a lot of sort of French and Italian

11:20

traditions that we pull from, and

11:23

I always felt much more close

11:26

to and inspired

11:28

by the Italian ones. The French ones are

11:30

a lot tighter, and um, I'm

11:32

messy, I'm

11:34

not like a neat, organized person or

11:36

cook. I'm a messy, loose, relaxed

11:39

cook and

11:41

and I like to sort of use however many tomatoes

11:43

are left. I like to use whatever amount of onions

11:45

are on the counter. You know. I like to chop

11:47

stuff up into whatever sized pieces makes sense.

11:49

And that's what Italian cooking is

11:52

versus French cooking is like cutting stuff

11:54

into perfect sized pieces. Yeah,

11:56

but you know part of you know, look, I think part of

11:58

your success has been

12:01

you try to make

12:04

it accessible for people. You know,

12:06

your cookbook Salt, Fat, Asset

12:08

Heat is framed around what

12:10

you say are the four fundamental

12:13

elements of good cooking. And you

12:15

know, I feel like you're, in a sense talking to somebody

12:17

like me, who you know, my prowess

12:20

in the kitchen is limited, and

12:22

you're basically saying, kind of go with the flow,

12:25

give it a try. Here are things you

12:27

can do. And I

12:29

think that it's really a philosophy

12:31

of cooking. It's not just a collection of

12:33

recipes. Am I right about that? Yeah?

12:36

Absolutely? Well, So do you have you ever

12:38

cooked anything? Oh? God, yes, I've cooked

12:40

a lot of things. Like what's a what's a success?

12:43

Well, you know, my cooking is

12:45

I would say, workman like, sort

12:48

of serviceable. I mean, it

12:50

usually is edible, but

12:54

it's it's not anything

12:56

that I'm particularly secure

12:58

about. You know. That's why I found

13:00

what you wrote in your Netflix and

13:03

other you know, even the podcast you're doing

13:05

now called home Cooking is really

13:08

addressed to people like me to kind

13:10

of root out my own insecurities about

13:12

oh, how many pieces of tomato

13:14

actually have to go in and all of that. But

13:17

how did you go from being

13:19

given thirty books, being in the kitchen,

13:22

finding your way, and then

13:24

really coming up with this

13:27

incredible theory. I

13:29

saw the pattern. I think after about two

13:31

years in the kitchen, I saw this pattern.

13:34

We would taste everything and

13:36

every day they would say, oh, this needs a little

13:38

salt. Oh the salad just

13:40

needs a little squeeze of lime, or

13:43

that soup it just actually needs a little bit

13:45

of vinegar to brighten it up. Or

13:47

are you going to start that carrot soup with butter or

13:49

olive oil? Do you want it to taste French or

13:52

do you want it to taste Italian? Interesting?

13:54

And even with heat, like, do you want

13:56

this thing to be blistery and hot

13:59

or do you want the texture of your meat to be

14:01

tender and falling off the bone. So

14:03

it was just these kind of patterns that I saw

14:06

over time, and eventually I actually

14:08

went to one of the chefs and I said, oh, I think I see

14:10

something. I think I see salt, fat, acid,

14:12

heat. And he said, yeah, duh, like

14:14

we all see that. That's a language we all speak.

14:17

And I actually was felt really betrayed. I was

14:19

like, if you all see this, how come nobody told

14:21

me? And

14:24

and he was like, oh, because it's like so

14:27

natural to us, we all get it. That

14:29

was when I understood, like there's something so basic

14:32

for these guys that nobody explains it.

14:34

And so that was I actually said I'm going to write

14:36

this book one day, but I still didn't

14:38

know enough, Like I needed to go do still

14:41

years and years more homework, figure

14:43

out how to talk

14:45

about it and teach about it, figure

14:47

out how to write, figure out you know, basic

14:49

science homework. I still had so

14:51

much more work to do before I could sit

14:54

down and write. And then the book was a big

14:56

success and then Netflix

14:58

came calling. So talking that experience,

15:01

I mean, I will say probably

15:03

as early as like two thousand seven, two

15:05

thousand eight, it occurred to me that

15:08

my desire was to teach people

15:10

how to cook as many people as possible,

15:13

because I saw so many people afraid

15:16

to just do these basic things, because

15:18

there would be something like I would go to a potluck,

15:21

let's say, and I would make something so simple

15:23

like roasted cauliflower with like

15:25

pine nuts and currents. You know, It's like that

15:28

was like six ingredients, pine nuts, currents, salt,

15:30

olive oil, cauliflower five ingredients,

15:32

and people would be like, I don't even know how

15:34

you did this. This is amazing. What did you

15:37

put in this? And I'm like, no, literally, it's like salt

15:39

cauliflower, like it's nothing. There's nothing

15:41

in this, you know. And

15:43

so it's not that what did I put in this? It's

15:45

just that I know that you know, this is

15:47

how you slice the cauliflower. This

15:49

is how much salt I used. I probably

15:52

my oven was hotter than yours. Probably

15:54

I spaced the cauliflower out

15:57

on the cookie sheet a little bit more than

15:59

you did. You know, I probably groasted it farther

16:01

than you did, right, But like, did I put

16:03

anything different in it than you know? It's just

16:06

I knew a little bit of this this and this, and

16:08

so if you knew this, this, and this, you

16:10

could make it too. We'll

16:12

be right back. There

16:15

were two other things though about the Netflix

16:17

experience, because clearly they

16:20

went after you smartly, because that's

16:22

exactly what you were doing, trying to make

16:25

cooking less mysterious

16:27

more accessible. But

16:30

you know, it took a while to get used to being on camera

16:32

totally. How is that for you? I always

16:35

wanted to make a show, but

16:37

I don't think I understood exactly

16:39

what it would mean for me to be the person on

16:41

camera, or for me what it would mean for

16:44

me to be the conduit for it. I

16:46

also don't think I understood that

16:48

I had a specific talent for it.

16:51

I just people kept telling me, oh, you're a naturally.

16:53

Are natural? And I

16:55

was like, okay, I don't know whatever. I just keep showing

16:57

up and doing it whatever like And

17:00

I think later I actually asked somebody,

17:02

another director who kept saying I was a natural, was like,

17:04

what does that mean? And he said, Oh, it just

17:06

means you act the same when the cameras are

17:08

on and when they're off. You don't stiffen up. And

17:10

I was like, okay, but a lot of people do. I

17:13

mean that that is absolutely something

17:15

that you are lucky that doesn't happen.

17:17

Yeah, it just happens to be. My thing is I

17:19

can block out a lot of stuff

17:22

and really focus on whoever is there with me.

17:25

But again, what was funny was I

17:27

really wanted this show, but I wanted

17:29

the show because I wanted to

17:31

to send this message out to the world. You know.

17:33

It wasn't for me to be the star of it. And I

17:35

think it didn't really occur to me what

17:38

I was doing until the show

17:40

almost came out. What did occur

17:42

to me throughout the filming was

17:45

that I am not like

17:47

a blonde, skinny woman. I

17:49

am not let's say like like, I do not adhere

17:51

to the traditional, let's say Western ideals

17:54

of beauty. I am a brown,

17:56

curvy woman, and I would be

17:58

eating on camera and I'm a person

18:00

who really loves to eat, and those

18:02

things are not historically, you know, like

18:04

shown on camera. I also, and I think that was so

18:07

endeared. You were enjoying

18:09

yourself, you were enjoying what

18:11

you were doing, you were enjoying what you

18:13

were eating. I think that

18:16

all contributed to the success

18:18

of it, Thank you. But I think there's another

18:20

element and you alluded to it, which

18:22

I connect to. You know, you

18:25

want people to not only

18:27

enjoy food, but to feel

18:30

comfortable actually preparing it, and that

18:32

has become so important

18:34

during this pandemic. All

18:37

the people who are at home, and

18:39

you know, there's lots of articles, you know, they're doing

18:42

sour drow bread or whatever it is that is

18:44

motivating them. But there are a lot of

18:46

people who now are

18:48

able to take a deep breath and

18:51

out of necessity or choice,

18:53

are trying to actually get reconnected

18:56

with food. Absolutely, and honestly,

18:58

I think there are so many dark ings weighing

19:01

on us during this time, but one

19:03

of the most hopeful things for me

19:06

is the idea that

19:08

practice is the way that

19:10

we become better cooks. And

19:13

this time has forced so many people

19:15

to cook, and so when

19:17

we emerge from our cocoons,

19:23

you know, I think that there will be an entire generation

19:25

who has a kind of cooking skill. Then

19:28

I think a few generations in this country

19:30

kind of didn't get it wasn't passed

19:33

down to us well, but part of it, you

19:35

know, speaking for myself and as a young

19:37

woman, you know, there were two things

19:39

that you didn't want to do because you

19:41

thought it was giving into

19:44

the stereotypes of the past. You didn't want to cook,

19:47

you didn't want to type, totally, totally.

19:50

So my mother would put three

19:52

very healthy meals, you know, on the table

19:55

every day during my entire childhood,

19:57

and you know, I'd set the table or maybe

20:00

chop and I'd help clean up. But boy,

20:02

you know, the idea of being in that

20:05

kitchen was not something that

20:07

looks like what you were saying with your mom. It's not something

20:09

that I was attracted to,

20:12

you know, unlike me, you

20:14

were ignited. So I just

20:16

have to ask you what's on the menu for you

20:18

know today in this week. You know,

20:21

what are you cooking up that you can share with me? Oh

20:23

yeah, oh man, uh.

20:26

I actually I have a pot of bean soakings

20:29

that I'm really excited to go cook. And

20:31

then we have these tomatoes that we

20:33

grow here in California at this time of year

20:35

that are they're called dry farmed tomatoes.

20:38

Dry farm dry farmed, and so it

20:40

means that the farmers stop watering

20:43

the plants after the plants send

20:45

out their first leaves, so it

20:47

forces the plants to send really

20:49

deep roots into the ground. And

20:52

then when the tomato fruits start coming.

20:54

They're like kind of small and shrivel e, but they're

20:57

really really intense in flavor, and

21:00

they are the most delicious

21:02

tomatoes. They're so good. I can't

21:04

even tell you how good they're so um.

21:06

Oh my gosh. So I have all the delicious

21:08

dry farm tomatoes. I was gonna make a tomato salad,

21:11

and then I got fresh corn massa, so

21:13

I was going to make tortillas. I

21:15

was gonna make casesa dillas and beans and tomatoes.

21:18

Yeah, you

21:20

know, I have to tell you to me and and this this,

21:22

I'm I'm going to confess this. My

21:25

beans don't ever really

21:27

work out. I mean, I know you're supposed to

21:30

soak them and soak them and soak them

21:32

and all the rest of it. But you know, beans

21:34

are such a good source of protein. I mean, I love

21:37

the idea of beans and when somebody else makes

21:39

them, you know, good black beans and good fava

21:41

beans and all the rest of it. What am

21:44

I doing either wrong or not

21:46

enough of Okay? I like soaking

21:48

because I think of it as inactive cooking. So

21:51

it's like I'm lazy. So I'm like I'll just soak it,

21:53

and how long do you soak, I just put it in water

21:55

the night before. Oh okay, so you did overnight.

21:58

Yeah, okay, if I can think of it, or

22:00

if I can't think of it, then I'll do it in the morning and then

22:02

i'll cook in the afternoon or something. Okay.

22:05

But if you don't have the time to soak, and even

22:07

if I do soak, I would add a little

22:09

pinch of baking soda to the water.

22:12

Baking soda, okay, yeah. And

22:14

I don't know what your water is like where

22:16

you live, but if you have hard water,

22:19

that can make your beans tough, and if

22:21

you have even a little bit of just

22:23

like slightly acidic water, that can make your beans

22:25

tough. So baking soda can help balance out your

22:27

water. It just makes them a little bit

22:29

softer, so that is nice.

22:32

And then I also put salt and whatever other flavorings

22:34

I want. But I also think the other criminal

22:36

thing that people do is they don't cook their beans long

22:39

enough. So I think in general, you

22:41

just have to cook them much longer than you think. And

22:43

so when you say much longer, how long is it, Well,

22:45

I don't know, because I don't know what kind of you are. Like

22:47

every bean is different, but probably until

22:50

the first few are falling apart.

22:52

Like my friend Tamara Adler says,

22:54

you have to taste five beans and

22:56

they all have to be creamy, and that's how you

22:58

know. Yeah, this is

23:00

very helpful. Thank

23:03

you for everything you've done to make people

23:05

like me who are insecure cooks

23:08

feel much better about trying in the kitchen.

23:10

Thank you, Thank you for everything you've done.

23:12

Thank you, Smin. You

23:17

can listen to Samine on her podcast

23:20

Home Cooking, which she co hosts

23:22

with Rischie Cache. Here way so

23:25

means fantastic cookbook is called

23:28

Salve Fat Acid Heat.

23:35

Up. Next is chef Jose Andreas. I

23:39

first heard of the chef because of the

23:41

restaurants that he started opening up and

23:43

I began to eat at, and

23:46

then I learned about how committed he was

23:48

to help people in need. He

23:50

started a whole nonprofit disaster

23:53

relief organization called World Central

23:55

Kitchen. He was born in Spain.

23:57

He moved to New York City when he was a young

24:00

man, I think like twenty or twenty one.

24:02

And since the COVID nineteen pandemic broke

24:04

out, he's been doing what he does best, jumping

24:07

into action to feed people. Back in February,

24:10

he set up a field kitchen to cook for passengers

24:12

and crew members quarantine on

24:14

the Diamond Princess Cruise ship

24:17

in Yokohama, Japan, and then

24:19

just spread across our country in the world

24:21

to help people. I was so happy to catch

24:23

up with him again. Jeff,

24:26

it's wonderful to see you, and welcome

24:28

to this podcast, my friend. Thank

24:30

you for having me. Well, you're

24:32

so busy. We've been lucky to find

24:35

you in between disasters

24:37

and restaurant openings and all the things that

24:39

you are involved in. And

24:41

I want to start a little bit in the beginning,

24:44

just so listeners know a

24:46

little bit about how you

24:48

got to where you are. You were born in

24:51

northern Spain. You moved

24:53

to Barcelona when you were just a little

24:55

kid, I think around the age of five. How

24:57

did you end up going to culinary school

25:00

when you were fifteen? So I

25:03

was not a very good student

25:05

in the traditional sense. That

25:07

doesn't mean that I was not highly

25:09

interested in learning, but the

25:12

traditional school system being

25:14

in front of a teacher and listening

25:17

to what the teacher had to tell you didn't work for

25:19

me. My father I knew I

25:21

had love for cooking. My father always

25:23

cook at home, and he said, why

25:26

you don't join cooking a school? And

25:28

I went to cooking a school. But exactly the same

25:30

thing happened. I barely went

25:32

to cooking a school because I beg I'm

25:34

going to work in the restaurants.

25:37

And me I am the living proof

25:39

that you still can't learn, only

25:41

you have to be learning in the way

25:43

that really suits you. And

25:45

and that's why I'm a guy that likes

25:48

to be with the boots on the ground for

25:50

learning. And this is the way I've been

25:52

doing it all my life. From that

25:54

time that you came to this country

25:57

as a very young man until

25:59

today you're equally

26:01

well known for your restaurants

26:04

as well as then the

26:06

philanthropic work that you

26:09

are now so well known for.

26:12

You almost came up with a

26:14

vision, because I do think it was a vision

26:17

about how to bring

26:19

food to people. How did

26:21

you come to the realization

26:24

that this was something you

26:26

had to do. What was the inspiration?

26:28

What gap were you trying to fill? Obviously

26:31

there's many things in life. My mom, my

26:34

dad, they were nurses. They work

26:36

on different shifts on the

26:38

hospital. The hospital was the place

26:40

they exchange My brothers and

26:42

I. So I spent a

26:44

lot of time in the emergency room nearby,

26:47

waiting for my mom or dad take us home.

26:49

I always saw nurses and daughters going the extra

26:52

mine. I think for me

26:54

watching in the distance because

26:56

I was not involved Katrina,

26:59

and especially is seeing what happened

27:01

at the Superdome in my brain,

27:03

an arena a stadium is

27:05

a gigantic restaurant that entertains

27:08

with the sports and musicians.

27:10

Was not reason that we were supposed

27:12

to leave so many men and women stranded

27:15

in an arena which actually

27:18

had every single infrastructure

27:20

to provide quick and fast relief.

27:23

So me I began thinking is I

27:25

realized that you send authors and nurses to

27:27

take care of the wounded and create hospitals.

27:30

You bring first responders

27:32

and search units to look for

27:34

people under the rubble, to bring experts

27:37

in every category. But actually

27:39

we were not bringing cooks to feed people

27:41

in need of food. And

27:43

I realized the problem is very simple,

27:46

because we need to show up and he's

27:48

millions of restaurants around the world. Is

27:51

hundreds of millions of food people

27:53

around the world. Let me great organization

27:55

that there's lowly, but surely we

27:58

are able to respond anywhere. So

28:00

that's how it began. Let's be quick, Let's

28:02

be fast. When anybody is hungry

28:05

or anybody's thirsty, they cannot wait

28:07

a week or a month from now for

28:09

governments or agency

28:11

relief agencies to provide eight food

28:14

and water must be achieved right

28:16

now. And that's what we began doing. And so

28:19

far we keep learning, but every

28:21

day we keep answering two more

28:24

natural disasters in America and around

28:26

the world. I want to talk for a minute

28:28

about the cruise ships, because you

28:31

went to Yokohama with

28:33

the cruise ship that was quarantined

28:35

there. You also went to the

28:37

West coast here, and at the time

28:40

that you went, that was

28:42

considered pretty dangerous. I mean, nobody

28:44

really understood what this pandemic

28:47

was going to mean. Talk a little

28:49

bit about what that was like. Because

28:52

it's one thing to show up after the disaster

28:55

has sadly and tragically

28:57

passed and you're helping

28:59

to cover It's another show

29:02

when it's unfolding and you're in the middle

29:04

of it. I began following

29:06

this pandemic right at the beginning

29:08

of January. One of my best friends,

29:10

Ambassador Orgel Hardo, he was

29:13

the Mexican ambassador in China over

29:15

six years, so he had a

29:17

lot of knowledge of China, and

29:20

he was getting me a lot of information in the thing

29:22

I love, which is how the

29:25

Chinese, the Bohan Redium was feeding

29:27

their citizens. So my brain

29:29

already began working on that front. When

29:32

Jokohama happened and the Princess

29:34

Crook ship was arriving and

29:36

many bad decisions were made. I was

29:38

a navy boy, I know only a bit or two about

29:41

being inside ship. I was

29:43

very amazed. Between all the big agencies

29:45

in the world, they will not make the right call, which

29:47

was take everybody out of the ship as

29:50

soon as we can, especially the people that may be

29:52

infected, and test everybody else.

29:55

But for us, we had a lot of experience in Haiti

29:57

and in most Ambigue with cholera, and

30:00

we kept all our teams clean and

30:02

healthy, and the people we were feeding the camps,

30:05

we were feeling healthy. These

30:07

gable is kind of an understanding how to behave

30:10

in kind of a disease that maybe in

30:12

thanks you so in the case of cholera,

30:14

because they're the conditions of the water and sanitation.

30:17

But this we arrived and we did a very good job.

30:19

We feed there eighteen thousand meals

30:22

a day, almost over forty days. What

30:24

I was very proud is that if you

30:26

will see the health experts

30:28

in the port, and you will see the

30:30

other people that were in wide

30:33

has MutS, you will have our time

30:36

understanding who are the people taking

30:38

care of the health code and who

30:40

didn't. I was very happy that wasn't dragging

30:42

chen. We went through all of these without getting

30:45

one person sick, wearing masks,

30:47

wearing globes, sanitation keeping

30:49

distance. We began that protocol,

30:52

and we began sharing that protocol with all

30:54

the Wall Central Kitchen family. To this

30:57

day, we've been very healthy. We had

30:59

more than twenty seven hundred restaurants across

31:01

America. We've been feeding people in

31:03

five six seven countries. We've been in

31:06

Laura in the hurricane, We've been in the fires in

31:08

California, we've been in the explosion in Lebanon,

31:10

and the team's of War Central Kitchen we've

31:13

been saying because we

31:15

did simple things to take

31:17

the barttle seriously, to make sure that

31:20

success was not getting infected yourself

31:22

and more important, not infecting anybody

31:24

else. And this is what has allowed

31:26

us to keep feeding millions

31:29

of meals through this pandemic successfully.

31:33

We're taking a quick break stay with us.

31:37

On a personal note, I am so grateful

31:40

for the partnership between the

31:42

World Central Kitchens and the

31:44

Clinton Presidential Center and Little Rock because

31:47

when the schools closed there in March,

31:50

as schools did in most of the country,

31:53

a lot of those children lost

31:55

their lunch, some of them lost their breakfast.

31:57

And in partnership between

32:00

World Central Kitchens and the staff

32:02

at the Clinton Center Library,

32:05

you've been able to feed I

32:07

lost tracks six eighty thousand people, and

32:10

now you're putting together produced

32:12

boxes for people to be able to take

32:15

home. So I wanted to personally

32:17

and publicly thank you. You know, I've

32:19

heard you say often that food

32:22

is a national security issue, and

32:25

I couldn't agree with you more. And it's a national

32:27

security issue in a lot of different

32:29

ways. We cannot be so dependent

32:32

on external food sources.

32:34

I saw a graph the other day where

32:37

a pair grown in Argentina

32:40

was sent to Thailand to

32:42

be packaged and then sent back

32:45

to the United States to go

32:48

on a supermarket shelf or

32:50

into a restaurant pantry. This

32:52

is crazy. We've got to deal

32:55

with food as a national security

32:57

issue, in part by creating better

33:00

agricultural supply lines. These

33:02

many things that have to happen at

33:04

the ground level, but there's many things

33:06

that they should be happening at the top

33:09

from in this case, from leadership, Congress,

33:12

White House. And there's many things we know

33:14

today that we didn't know twenty forty

33:16

years ago. But one thing is certain.

33:19

If food is not taking seriously,

33:22

the next revolutions will

33:24

be because lack of food. In a moment

33:27

that on paper, food will be plentiful

33:29

right now, we had two plagues of

33:31

locusts in Africa back

33:34

to back. They ended

33:36

with huge parts of Africa

33:39

without grain. We've been having fires,

33:41

we are having issues with water. One

33:44

day the perfect storm may be coming

33:46

and one day we will wake up and realize,

33:49

actually we don't have as much food

33:51

in our hands as we thought we had. That's

33:54

why it's important that we need at

33:56

the highest part possible of government

33:59

a person that will always

34:01

be thinking as food as a national

34:03

security issue. Let's make sure

34:05

we are ahead, and let's make sure that food

34:08

doesn't become a problem, but that food becomes

34:10

a solution to keep everybody healthy.

34:12

Better nutrition in a school, creating

34:15

jobs, making rural America richer

34:18

again. And of course we know

34:20

right now that a lot

34:22

of Americans in this richest

34:25

of all countries are skipping

34:27

meals. They are lining

34:29

up in their cars or on foot to

34:31

pick up food supplies, getting

34:34

donations from pantries

34:36

and other charities. And you

34:39

know, part of the problem is that we

34:41

just don't really understand

34:44

how food insecure,

34:47

vulnerable people are trying

34:50

to live. We don't see them.

34:52

I mean you see them because you go not

34:55

only into disaster areas,

34:57

but you try to help feed the home

35:00

was you try to have a backup

35:02

system like you did with us in Little

35:04

Rock for kids who are out of school. They

35:06

don't have that free lunch anymore. How

35:09

are you thinking about this? Because you're right,

35:11

we have to have the national security

35:14

plan, uh and it should start yesterday,

35:17

but we also have to have the real hunger

35:19

and food and security plan as well. What

35:22

I realized is that thought

35:25

should not be political and should be

35:27

a Republican Democrat issue.

35:30

Right now, we need a strategic plan

35:33

until COVID is beaten to

35:35

fit America. In a very simple

35:37

way, right now, we throw money of the problem.

35:40

Let's make sure that instead of throwing

35:42

money with boxes that sometimes there are not

35:44

even reaching the people. Let's make sure

35:46

that we put restaurants up on working like walls

35:49

and each has done three thousand restaurants

35:51

that we've been paying per meal. The restaurants

35:54

can be open, they can pay their lists,

35:56

they can hire their people back. Those

35:59

people can the rents, they can buy from

36:01

the farmers and the fishermen. In the process,

36:03

the local mayors they have a place where to go

36:06

to feed their communities. You need every

36:08

dollar that comes from the federal government or

36:10

from private donations is multiplied

36:13

by three. That's it's my idea.

36:15

Why we don't keep school lunches up

36:18

and going breakfast and lunch in every community,

36:20

and not only for children, but for families. Why

36:22

we don't increase snaps what we call food

36:25

steps so people can use set in

36:27

restaurants, so people that if you are

36:29

elderly and you don't want to go out because it's not

36:31

safe for you to go out, what you cannot use

36:33

maybe snaps to get food delivered

36:35

to your house is gonna be cheaper because

36:38

those elderly people are gonna be healthy, they're

36:40

gonna be fed, and you are investing

36:42

in keeping the economy up and running. Right

36:44

now, we lack this kind of leadership

36:47

three sixty degrees strategy that

36:50

we should be putting in place in this moment,

36:53

but they should be lessers learned about

36:56

how to make sure that in the process of keeping

36:58

every American child said,

37:01

we keep the local economies

37:03

running, rural America getting

37:05

is stronger, and putting everybody

37:08

at work in the process of feeding America.

37:10

This will be a good investment in the future

37:12

of America, but it requires

37:14

a vision and then political

37:17

will. Right, Let's hope that we keep

37:19

pushing on one day. We hope that

37:21

one plate of food at the time, we can

37:23

keep creating a stronger, better America.

37:26

Well, I hope everybody is listening because

37:29

that's a great policy overview

37:31

for what we need to do about food

37:34

security. And I want to underscore what you said,

37:36

because I'm not sure many people know this,

37:39

is that World Central Kitchen has been paying

37:41

restaurants to be their partners

37:44

so that they can keep their employees

37:47

employed and they can keep doing what they

37:49

do so well, namely making food

37:51

that will nourish people. You know. To

37:54

wrap up, I just want to reiterate

37:57

my gratitude to you for everything

37:59

you do. But I know how hard

38:02

you work. I know even in the middle

38:04

of the pandemic, you're on and off planes.

38:06

You're going from wildfires

38:09

to disastrous explosions

38:11

in Beirut and everywhere in between.

38:14

It is so important that the

38:16

people who are helping to

38:19

take care of others also take

38:21

care of themselves. You

38:23

know, you and I've had some pretty long

38:26

days. But at the end of those

38:28

days, if we're going to keep being of service,

38:31

and particularly someone who is literally

38:33

creating a new brand of

38:35

philanthropy, you've got to

38:38

replenish yourself too. Well.

38:40

I'm very blessed because I have

38:43

a wife I don't deserve. My

38:45

best friend. She keeps me honest,

38:47

she gives me a straight I've

38:50

been taking a little break this summer. Actually

38:52

I lost forty pounds and it's still I

38:55

promise her. By the end of the year, I should be losing

38:57

another thirty pounds. So this is

38:59

very important. And if I want to be jumping between

39:01

helicopters and amphibious

39:04

vehicles, and I want to

39:06

be doing this, it's my calling life feeding

39:08

the many. Obviously, I want my restaurants

39:10

successful too. We have only

39:12

four hundred working right now. But I

39:15

cannot wait to have everybody else

39:17

back sooner rather than later. So yes,

39:19

the responsibility is on the shoulders.

39:22

I wish I had a little restaurant in a little

39:24

island and just be there with my wife,

39:26

making ROMs hours and cooking a little

39:29

grill chicken on the beach. But

39:32

I decided to have a slightly more complex

39:34

life and was

39:37

Senator Patrick moyneghan that back in

39:39

nine on a Sunday morning, almost

39:42

first customer I ever had in my

39:44

restaurant, Halleo on Seventh and in

39:46

Northwest Patrick Moneghan told

39:49

me that if you love America, America

39:51

will always love you back. America

39:53

has given me and a great place to belong,

39:56

three and beautiful American born daughters,

39:58

an opportunity to serve. The least

40:00

I can do is used to get back a little

40:02

bit of everything I got. If we

40:05

all do that, I know America

40:07

is gonna be always a country that we all dream

40:09

of. It's a pleasure always

40:11

talking to you. Thank you so much for spending

40:15

some time talking about food

40:17

and life and everything in between.

40:20

Thank you very much for having Since

40:26

the pandemic broke out, World Central

40:29

Kitchen has provided more than thirty

40:32

million meals in four hundred

40:34

cities across America. To

40:36

support their vital work, visit

40:39

w c K dot

40:42

org. Now

40:45

I can't talk about food without talking

40:47

to one of my favorite restaurant owners,

40:50

Rocco di Fasio from Troy, New

40:52

York. I first started meeting

40:54

with him, working with him, and eating

40:57

his fabulous food back when I

41:00

was a senator from New York. I

41:02

know you can have a big fight about

41:04

what makes for delicious pizza. I can just tell

41:06

you that Rocco's pizza is

41:09

really special, and I think

41:11

it's because of all the love that this three

41:13

generation business puts

41:15

into it. So I wanted to talk to Rocco

41:17

about what things have been like at the restaurant during

41:20

the pandemic, how he's adapting to

41:22

this new reality, and of

41:24

course get a little update on his famous

41:26

pizza and legendary

41:29

gelato. And a quick disclaimer

41:31

for those listening, this interview will

41:33

leave you craving both. Hello,

41:36

beer, It is so good to see

41:38

you. This is not as good as

41:41

being with you in person, but it will have to

41:43

do until you know we can travel

41:46

again. I still remember very

41:48

well eating your pizza for the first

41:50

time. It

41:54

was delicious. But in addition

41:56

to such delicious pizza, it

41:59

was just so much fun. The business

42:02

that your parents started, that you've

42:04

kept going, that you've now passed

42:06

on your kids. It's

42:08

such a great American story and it

42:11

is centered around food. You

42:13

know. I first learned about

42:16

you because when I was senator from New York,

42:18

I used to read local newspapers all the time,

42:20

and I would find things

42:23

in it and I would say, Hey, let's follow up

42:25

on this. And I saw this article

42:27

about how you wanted

42:30

to try to rebrand Troy,

42:33

New York to really make it a kind

42:35

of little Italy destination,

42:38

and I thought that was such

42:40

a great idea. So I

42:43

contacted you. But first my office tried to

42:45

call to connect with you, and you kept hanging

42:48

as I because

42:50

you thought it was a prank. Give a

42:52

little bit of history to our listeners

42:55

about your parents, Anthony

42:57

and Josephine, and you

42:59

know, are American journey, which of

43:01

course led to starting the

43:03

business. Yes, both of my parents

43:06

came to the United States in the

43:08

very early thirties. My mother

43:11

was from near a small town outside

43:13

of Naples, and my father was

43:15

from Calabria. And my mother's

43:18

friends would always tell her how

43:20

did you marry this color braise? Why

43:22

did you? Oh? Yeah, because

43:25

the two didn't Why

43:28

did you marry this color Braise. So when

43:30

you're parents, Anthony and Josephine

43:33

started the business back in nineteen, what

43:36

kind of business was it, because I know it's changed

43:38

throughout the years. Oh it has, we have

43:41

changed. Yes, it was a neighborhood

43:43

store, but there were dozens

43:46

of these stores. What was the

43:48

point at which you all discovered the attractiveness

43:51

of pizza and especially wood fired

43:54

pizza. Wood fired wasn't known

43:56

anywhere, but we had this

43:58

building next to us, and so I'm

44:01

talking to my parents saying, you

44:03

know, I think we should open up pizzeria.

44:06

And they both said, I think

44:08

you should use a wood fired oven, because

44:12

both of their parents use a wood

44:14

fired oven. And it'll be from the old country,

44:16

from the old country. That's all they had. My

44:19

dad always used to say when

44:21

things were going well, now

44:23

we're cooking with gas. Well

44:26

that's where that expression came from. Yes,

44:30

we're moving up. We're moving up

44:32

in the world. We have gas.

44:34

When did you actually take charge

44:36

of the business. Nine.

44:39

I just had this conversation yesterday

44:41

with people from Brooklyn who

44:43

were up to try it, and they said,

44:46

your pizza crust is

44:48

unique. Well, I can attest to that,

44:50

having eaten a lot of us, and everybody

44:53

will say that because it

44:55

isn't pizza though, it's my

44:58

grandmother's itali and breaddough

45:00

recipe. Now is this your Neapolitan

45:04

grandmother or your it's my colored

45:06

braise. So

45:08

and I tweeked the recipe

45:12

for pizza. You know, even after

45:14

everything you've seen, all of

45:16

the decades of hard work that changes

45:18

in your neighborhood, did anything

45:21

in your past experience

45:23

prepare you for a global pandemic?

45:25

How did you even wrap your head around it? And how

45:28

as a small business owner

45:30

did you figure out ways to survive?

45:33

Open the playbook, Matthew

45:37

my son, we would talk we

45:39

need to open the playbook

45:42

now, meaning things

45:44

that we have been working on, we

45:47

gotta do them now. Like give me an example. First

45:50

thing we did, We're going to offer breakfast,

45:53

interesting breakfast pizzas,

45:55

breakfast pizzas, a and

45:57

vegetables, which was a big hit. Sounds

46:00

delicious, are delicious

46:03

to the fastest growing

46:05

food segment is vegan.

46:08

So now you have vegan pizzas. Yes, we

46:10

make vegan gelato.

46:13

Okay, what's it tastes like? Tell me the truth? Heaven

46:15

really the only thing I

46:18

will leave now. You know a lot of listeners

46:20

are challenging themselves by trying

46:23

to cook through this pandemic. What is

46:25

the secret to trying to make a great

46:27

pizza at home? We've been selling

46:29

a lot of our pizza dough ready

46:31

to make, and I really tell people, if

46:34

you're gonna make it, just come and

46:36

buy it from us. Don't buy the stuff

46:39

in the supermarket, go to a bakery

46:41

and go to Italian bakery or a pizzeria

46:44

that you like their dough. And we sell

46:47

dozens and dozens of

46:50

fresh pizza dough to people who now

46:53

want to do it. Interesting and I told Matthew

46:56

one of the things I want to do for the holidays

46:59

is a pete some making kit

47:02

and we also have directions

47:05

on this. So what we're going to be

47:07

offering for the holidays is people

47:10

can buy to dough, to

47:12

sauces and very good

47:15

imported Peccorina Romano

47:17

cheese. Then you just have to get your toppings

47:20

to make your pizza and explanation

47:23

how to do it. And you know what the first

47:26

set is in the directions, turn

47:29

off your TV, get

47:33

off your phone, put some Frank

47:35

Sinatra music on so

47:39

great Ord Martin or

47:41

Tony Bennett, and then start making

47:44

it. Oh my god, that is so perfect.

47:46

You know, I hope everybody is listening

47:49

because it's not only the actual

47:51

ingredients of the pizza. It's like what's in

47:53

your mind and your thoughts right your

47:56

heart beating? Thank

48:00

you well. I hope you're not going

48:02

to be inundated by people after this podcast

48:04

runs calling you for pizza, doll. But

48:07

you know you're gonna have to get ready Rocco because

48:09

that may be coming. To turn

48:11

off the TV, turn off and talk

48:14

to each other to

48:21

plan a visit to Rocco's visit De

48:23

Fasio's pizza dot com. That's

48:27

it for today's show, Wishing

48:29

you all a happy holiday season and

48:31

thinking of everyone who can't be with

48:34

family and friends right now. Let

48:36

us all hope and work to make it so that

48:39

our country in the world are different

48:42

this time next year. You

48:45

and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart

48:47

Radio. We're produced by

48:50

Julie Subran and Kathleen Russo, with

48:53

help from whom I Aberdeen, Nikki

48:55

etur Oscar Flores, Rihanna

48:57

Johnson, Nick Merrill, Lauren

49:00

Eaterson, Rob Russo, and Lona

49:02

Valmorrow. Our engineer is

49:04

Zack McNeice and original

49:07

music is by Forest Gray. And

49:09

a huge thanks this week to

49:11

opal ve Done for her help with

49:14

this week's episode. If

49:16

you like the show, tell someone else about

49:18

it. You can subscribe to You and

49:20

Me both on the I Heart Radio app,

49:23

Apple Podcasts, or wherever

49:25

you get your podcasts. We'd love

49:28

to hear from you. Send us your questions

49:30

and comments or even ideas for future

49:32

episodes to You and Me

49:34

both pod at gmail dot

49:37

com. Come back next week

49:39

when I talk with three incredibly thoughtful

49:42

people who have struggled with mental

49:44

health. Veteran author

49:46

and advocate Jason Candor,

49:49

Broadway actor and Tony Award

49:51

winner Audra McDonald, and

49:54

author Ali Brausch. I

49:56

hope you'll join me then, m