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me I love to delegate especially

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a co-host at airbnb.com/host. People just

3:04

don't believe you can make six

3:06

figures working with your hands. There

3:08

are 8.7 million open jobs. Most

3:10

of them don't require a four-year

3:12

degree. What they require is training

3:14

and the mastery of a skill

3:16

that's in demand. A lot of

3:18

people know you from your very

3:20

very famous show called Dirty Jobs.

3:22

Dirty Jobs became a hit in

3:24

2006. By 2008, it was the

3:26

number one show on cable. There

3:28

were 12 million people looking for

3:30

jobs. But the crazy thing was

3:32

on Dirty Jobs everywhere we went.

3:34

We saw help wanted signs. Those

3:36

jobs are real. They're not vocational

3:38

consolation prizes for people who can't

3:40

do the other thing. How do

3:42

you feel about following your passion?

3:44

Just because you love something doesn't

3:46

mean you can't suck at it.

3:48

Follow your dreams. Follow your passion.

3:50

The trap with that is... Yeah,

4:00

Pam, I'm joined today by a

4:02

huge figure in both television and

4:04

podcasting. Someone who's perhaps America's most

4:06

celebrated blue-collar storyteller. I'm talking, of

4:08

course, about Mike Rowe. Mike is

4:10

an Emmy award-winning TV host, producer,

4:12

narrator, and podcaster. He's the creator

4:14

and host of Dirty Jobs, and

4:17

the podcast The Way I Heard

4:19

It Amongst Many Other Things. Before

4:21

he was profiling America's toughest jobs,

4:23

Mike was just trying to figure

4:25

out his own path and get

4:27

ready because his career is a

4:29

master class in how to adapt

4:31

and how to become a transformative

4:33

content creator and storyteller. Mike, welcome

4:35

to Young and Profiting Podcast. Thank

4:37

you. Do I still qualify as

4:39

young? I mean, profiting I understand,

4:42

but I'm not sure the young

4:44

thing still applies, but I'll take

4:46

it. Well, you're definitely profiting and

4:48

you are young at heart. I

4:50

know that for sure. And I

4:52

interview people of all ages. I'm

4:54

really trying to get your wisdom

4:56

and I know you've got so

4:58

much to share today. So a

5:00

lot of people know you from

5:02

your very, very famous show called

5:04

Dirty Jobs. But I found out

5:07

that you had a really extensive

5:09

career before that and you did

5:11

so many different jobs in the

5:13

90s. You were working as an

5:15

opera singer and you did QVC.

5:17

So talk to us about all

5:19

the different experiences that you've had

5:21

that led you up to dirty

5:23

jobs. Yeah, guilty as charged. I

5:25

grew up in a little farm

5:27

outside of Baltimore. My granddad lived

5:29

next to us and he was

5:32

a magician, not a literal magician,

5:34

but he was a tradesman. He

5:36

only went to the seventh grade,

5:38

but he could build or fix

5:40

or fabricate anything from scratch. He

5:42

just had that chip. So as

5:44

a boy, I grew up with

5:46

a front row seat. to all

5:48

kinds of different work, all kinds

5:50

of trade work, and just an

5:52

incredible work ethic both in my

5:54

dad, my granddad, and my mother,

5:57

by the way, who just finished

5:59

her fourth book at 87. The

6:01

woman is written every day for

6:03

67 years now. But the point

6:05

is, I got really good cards

6:07

as a kid. We didn't have

6:09

a lot of money or anything

6:11

like that, but I just had

6:13

a great example of what worked

6:15

look like and a really great

6:17

exposure to the trades. And I

6:19

was pretty sure I was going

6:22

to follow in my pop's footsteps.

6:24

That's what I wanted to do.

6:26

But the handy gene tragically is

6:28

recessive. The things that came easily

6:30

to him didn't come easily to

6:32

me. It was my pop who...

6:34

suggested that I could be a

6:36

tradesman if I really wanted to.

6:38

I just needed to get a

6:40

different toolbox. That's when I realized

6:42

that being a tradesman is really

6:44

a state of mind, more than

6:47

a mastery of a specific set

6:49

of skills. It's both obviously, but

6:51

I think today a lot of

6:53

people really think about being in

6:55

the trades in a very narrow

6:57

way. It's very much a state

6:59

of mind. When I accepted the

7:01

fact, honestly, that just because you...

7:03

just because you love something doesn't

7:05

mean you can't suck at it

7:07

and started to put together a

7:09

different toolbox in a community college

7:12

and with a couple of really

7:14

great mentors and the way I

7:16

just kind of was able to

7:18

force gump my way into the

7:20

TV business was was a real

7:22

blessing and it started with the

7:24

attitude of touch everything like it's

7:26

hot don't swing for the fences

7:28

it's not about home runs in

7:30

this game it's about singles and

7:32

doubles and do is much work

7:34

as you can in as many

7:37

different categories as you're able. And

7:39

so I got a liberal arts

7:41

background, a healthy sense of curiosity,

7:43

and consequently I tried a lot

7:45

of different things, and the ones

7:47

that stuck, I doubled down on.

7:49

And before long, I had my

7:51

toolbox in order, and yeah, I

7:53

was singing in the opera, I

7:55

was doing infomercials, I was guest

7:57

starring in sitcoms, I was doing

7:59

pilots for talk shows, and... God,

8:02

I wasn't terribly proud of the

8:04

work, but I wasn't ashamed of

8:06

it. and spent probably 15 years

8:08

probably doing maybe 200 different jobs

8:10

in the entertainment business before Dirty

8:12

Jobs even came along. So there's

8:14

a weird but bright line on

8:16

on my resume that I would

8:18

call before Dirty Jobs and after

8:20

Dirty Jobs because really everything, everything

8:22

changed in a huge way once

8:24

that show hit. Yeah, and you

8:27

were getting so many experiences, you

8:29

were doing so many things, and

8:31

I read somewhere that you were

8:33

really treating TV as a mercenary,

8:35

and that you weren't worried about

8:37

the quality of work, you just

8:39

thought of it as work. So

8:41

talk to us about having that

8:43

kind of a mindset and how

8:45

that actually helped you when it's

8:47

such a competitive world to be,

8:49

and you became really successful, where

8:52

so many people struggle to find

8:54

success as an actor and things

8:56

like that. Well, it helped me

8:58

for as long as it helped

9:00

me, and then it didn't. And

9:02

that's the thing, really. I mean,

9:04

the thing about advice is that

9:06

I've lived long enough to know

9:08

that the best advice I've ever

9:10

gotten only applied at the time

9:12

I needed to hear it. And

9:14

I don't know who's listening to

9:17

this conversation right now necessarily or

9:19

really what they need to hear.

9:21

All I know for sure is

9:23

that I live two very different

9:25

lives in the course of the

9:27

career that I've had. and both

9:29

were fun and both were necessary,

9:31

but neither could have happened contemporaneously.

9:33

So the mercenary thing you read

9:35

about was probably me talking about

9:37

my foundation today and how I

9:39

squared this kind of bloody do-gooderism

9:42

with the business of actually making

9:44

a buck in an industry that

9:46

is in fact very mercenary. And

9:48

in those conversations, I typically say

9:50

something like, look, I think there's

9:52

I think there's a missionary position

9:54

and a mercenary position in all

9:56

things, and I think both those

9:58

positions are somewhat under-rate. But prior

10:00

to dirty jobs, it was all

10:02

mercenary. I was a freelancer in

10:05

every sense of the word. By the

10:07

way, do you know the etymology

10:09

of that? Where freelance comes

10:11

from? No. I didn't either. And when

10:13

I learned about it, it

10:15

really resonated with me that the

10:18

word is actually medieval. It refers

10:20

to a knight who served no

10:22

lord or no king. His lance, in

10:24

other words, was for sale. He was

10:27

a freelance. not an inexpensive one,

10:29

but he was free to work

10:31

for anybody he wanted

10:33

to. That attitude combined with

10:36

the tools in the box

10:38

my pop told me to

10:40

assemble a willingness to relocate

10:42

whenever necessary. Those things really

10:44

informed the first 15 years

10:46

of my career and I loved that

10:48

life. I loved looking at every

10:51

job like it had a beginning

10:53

in a middle and an end.

10:55

I enjoyed doing the best work

10:57

that I could, but I also

10:59

love knowing that I wasn't going

11:01

to be tied to any particular

11:04

project the way success demands.

11:06

And so I carved out

11:08

a really fun niche in

11:11

the entertainment business where I

11:13

owned virtually nothing. I was working

11:15

on multiple projects at the same

11:17

time. I had clothing deals for

11:20

instance with like... American Eagle and

11:22

Nordstroms and different shows had different

11:25

deals. So I didn't really own

11:27

any clothes except the ones I

11:29

picked up in whatever town I

11:32

landed in. I was working for

11:34

American Airlines at the time doing

11:36

a traveling show. So I had

11:39

a free pass to travel anywhere

11:41

in the world I wanted to. I

11:43

had deals with hotels. And so

11:45

I was like a nomad for 15 years.

11:48

I flew wherever the work was. I did

11:50

the best I could on the job. And

11:52

I mean not to sound too cynical about

11:54

it, but honestly in those days when I

11:56

was in my late 20s and 30s, I

11:59

was affirmatively looking. for work and ideas

12:01

that had been so poorly

12:03

conceived that no amount of

12:05

execution could possibly save them.

12:07

That's the thing nobody talks

12:09

about in Hollywood. There's so many

12:12

ideas and so many of them

12:14

are bad. And if you associate

12:16

yourself with these ideas that don't

12:18

turn into hits, but do a

12:20

good job working on them, you'll

12:22

get a good reputation and

12:24

you'll get hired for virtually. I

12:27

got hired a lot. I got hired

12:29

for a lot of things I auditioned

12:31

for and I never really got punished

12:33

for the fact that most of those

12:35

things didn't actually work long term. And

12:38

so by the time I was 35

12:40

I realized I'd been taking my

12:42

retirement in early installments. I'd been

12:44

traveling a lot working maybe seven

12:46

months a year on projects that

12:48

didn't really matter too much to

12:50

me, but I didn't care because

12:53

at that point in my life

12:55

it all made perfect sense. I

12:57

had made enough money to save

12:59

and be comfortable and I had

13:01

enough time to enjoy myself. And

13:03

so for a long time I

13:05

thought I'd crack the code and

13:07

I was pretty satisfied with all

13:10

that until I wasn't. Yeah,

13:12

and then until you got

13:14

famous basically with dirty jobs.

13:16

So I was actually pretty

13:18

surprised to find out that

13:20

You actually were the one who pitched dirty

13:23

jobs to different networks and you're the

13:25

one who came up with the idea.

13:27

I had always thought you were just

13:29

like the host of the show. So

13:31

talk to us about how you got

13:33

the idea for dirty jobs and what

13:35

was it like to actually bring

13:37

that to market? It was very

13:39

strange. What happened was I was

13:42

42 and I was living that

13:44

freelance life and everything was great.

13:46

I had moved up to San

13:48

Francisco to work temporarily. as a

13:50

host for a show called Evening

13:52

Magazine, which is one of those local shows

13:54

that comes on after the news. And I

13:56

was the host of this show, and it

13:58

was a pretty good... gig. I would

14:01

go to wineries up in Napa

14:03

and I would go to museum

14:05

openings and I would basically host

14:07

the show every night from these

14:09

different locations. It could be anywhere.

14:11

I had settled into the job

14:13

and my mom called me. I

14:15

was sitting in my cubicle at

14:17

KPIX here in San Francisco and

14:19

she called to say Michael your

14:21

grandfather turned 90 years old yesterday

14:23

as you know and you know

14:25

I was just thinking. he won't

14:27

be alive forever and wouldn't it

14:29

be great she said if before

14:31

he died he could turn on

14:33

his television and see you doing

14:35

something that looked like work and

14:38

so remember my pop is the

14:40

guy who could build a house

14:42

without a blueprint he's the guy

14:44

who can he was a tradesman's

14:46

tradesman and I laughed a lot

14:48

when I think about what he

14:50

must have thought when he saw

14:52

me singing in the opera were

14:54

selling things in the middle of

14:56

the night on the QVC cable

14:58

shopping channel or were doing all

15:00

of these jobs that I had

15:02

been doing that I didn't really

15:04

care about that made absolutely no

15:06

sense to his brain. So my

15:08

mom calls and kind of gives

15:10

me this good-natured challenge as she

15:13

always does, she still does in

15:15

fact, but she was right. You

15:17

know, I'm like, why does evening

15:19

magazine always have to be hosted

15:21

from a winery or a museum

15:23

or opening night at a theater

15:25

or something. Why can't it be

15:27

hosted from a factory floor or

15:29

a construction site or a sewer?

15:31

And that was the question I

15:33

asked my boss back in 2002.

15:35

I said, I want to host

15:37

tomorrow night's episode from a sewer.

15:39

He said, I don't care. Do

15:41

whatever you want. Nobody's watching the

15:43

show anyway. I took my cameraman.

15:45

I went into the sewers of

15:48

San Francisco and what happened down

15:50

there is a book that I

15:52

got around to writing a few

15:54

years ago. And... the massive lesson

15:56

that I learned down there was

15:58

that I was basically unable to

16:00

do my job between just a

16:02

endless river of crap that kept

16:04

knocking me. over and rats the

16:06

size of a loaf of bread

16:08

and millions of roaches that completely

16:10

covered us. I mean it was

16:12

so disgusting and so impossible to

16:14

be a host, I stopped trying

16:16

and instead I just asked the

16:18

sewer inspector who was down there

16:20

sort of as my guide if

16:22

I could help him do whatever

16:25

it was he was doing. He

16:27

was replacing the bricks in the

16:29

wall. That was basically his job.

16:31

So my camera guy filmed me

16:33

working alongside this sewer inspector. And

16:35

our conversation was captured on the

16:37

video. And I thought when I

16:39

looked at this footage of me

16:41

working with Jean Cruz, the sewer

16:43

inspector back then, it was like,

16:45

why does the authority figure have

16:47

to be the host? Why can't

16:49

they just be a regular person?

16:51

And if that happens, then what

16:53

am I if I'm not the

16:55

host? And the answer was, well,

16:57

maybe you're an apprentice or a

17:00

guest or an avatar or a

17:02

cipher of some kind. It might

17:04

not seem like a big distinction

17:06

today, but back then it was

17:08

huge. And this idea, like after

17:10

15 years of impersonating a host,

17:12

if all of a sudden I

17:14

could work instead as a guest

17:16

and find a dynamic where I

17:18

could spend time with regular people

17:20

doing real work, would anybody watch

17:22

that? That was the question. Well,

17:24

holy crap, man. I put that

17:26

segment went on the air on

17:28

evening magazine. And the response was

17:30

telling. It wasn't that people said,

17:32

God, that was enjoyable. People were

17:34

horrified. They were trying to eat

17:37

dinner. And I'm crawling around in

17:39

a river of crap. It was

17:41

just totally inappropriate for that show.

17:43

In fact, I was fired ultimately

17:45

for putting that on the air.

17:47

But the feedback that I'll never

17:49

forget came from hundreds of viewers

17:51

who just said, hey, Mike, if

17:53

you think that was dirty, wait

17:55

do you see what my dad

17:57

does? Why don't you come and

17:59

drive the food truck at the

18:01

zoo or replace? a lift pump

18:03

in a pumping chamber, a wastewater

18:05

treatment plan, and so forth. And

18:07

I just thought I'd never seen

18:09

that kind of reaction to anything

18:12

I'd ever done on TV. It

18:14

wasn't thumbs up or thumbs down.

18:16

That didn't matter. It was like,

18:18

hey, come and let me show

18:20

you what I do. And that

18:22

was the moment. For me, I

18:24

thought, man, there's something here. And

18:26

even though CBS let me take

18:28

the tape with me. and I

18:30

got their permission to try and

18:32

sell a show. I called it

18:34

somebody's got to do it back

18:36

then, but everybody said no. I

18:38

took it to every network, every

18:40

place you can take a show

18:42

to sell it. The only people

18:44

who didn't say no were Discovery,

18:47

and they didn't say yes. They

18:49

just said, look, we'll let you

18:51

do a pilot, like three episodes.

18:53

They hired me to be sort

18:55

of the Discovery guy. They wanted

18:57

me to go on expeditions around

18:59

the world and... see the Titanic

19:01

and climb Kilimanjaro with experts and

19:03

I was totally into that. And

19:05

they let me narrate pretty much

19:07

everything they did for about 15

19:09

years there. But this thing we

19:11

call Dirty Jobs was not supposed

19:13

to be a hit. It wasn't

19:15

supposed to be a series. It

19:17

certainly wasn't supposed to be a

19:19

franchise. And it sure is hell

19:21

wasn't supposed to launch 38 different

19:24

shows. It did. All those things

19:26

happened. as they started to happen,

19:28

I realized for the first time

19:30

in my life that I was

19:32

actually working on something that I

19:34

did care about. That's when I

19:36

went to work in earnest. Truly,

19:38

for the first time in my

19:40

life, when that thing went on

19:42

discovery and hit, and we were

19:44

overwhelmed again with the same response,

19:46

only this time it was thousands

19:48

of letters. That's when everything changed,

19:50

because my mom called and told

19:52

me to do something that looked

19:54

like work. You just mentioned that

19:56

like you don't love to give

19:59

advice, but I've heard you give

20:01

some advice where you say don't

20:03

chase your passion chase opportunity and

20:05

I think when you first were

20:07

thinking about this dirty jobs concept,

20:09

you were really chasing that opportunity

20:11

of the fact that you were

20:13

getting such a great reaction from

20:15

people and it was exciting and

20:17

then that turned into your passion.

20:19

So I'd just love to hear

20:21

a bit about that for all

20:23

the young people listening. How do

20:25

you feel about following your passion?

20:27

So much of what eventually came

20:29

out of dirty jobs was an

20:31

alternate compendium for living and it

20:34

was somewhat contrarian. I'd seen, and

20:36

I'm sure you and all your

20:38

viewers have too, these accessories, right?

20:40

They hang on walls everywhere. They

20:42

say things like, stay the course,

20:44

and it'll be a picture of,

20:46

you know, some guys may be

20:48

rowing in a shell or kayaking,

20:50

and at some point during dirty

20:52

jobs when it really blew up,

20:54

I started to realize that the

20:56

people I was working with almost

20:58

always had a different take on

21:00

conventional wisdom. So, stay the course

21:02

is a great example. It makes

21:04

great sense to tell somebody to

21:06

stay the course if they're going

21:08

in the right direction. If they're

21:11

not, it's probably the worst thing

21:13

in the world you can tell

21:15

them to do. Never quit. Never

21:17

give up. So to answer your

21:19

question, if the subject is passion

21:21

and the topic is your dream,

21:23

well I'd wager most people listening

21:25

right now have been told from

21:27

an early age just as I

21:29

was growing up to follow your

21:31

dream and to never give up

21:33

on your passion. and to be

21:35

resilient and to be stubborn in

21:37

this regard. And boy, sometimes that

21:39

is great advice, but my God,

21:41

the evidence to the contrary is

21:43

voluminous. We've all seen American Idol

21:46

and we've all heard, you know,

21:48

Beyonce, Lady Gagga and Cher and

21:50

all the rock stars of our

21:52

day say, look, never give up

21:54

on that dream. I've heard him

21:56

say it when they're standing there

21:58

clutching their grannies. And yet... What's

22:00

the real lesson from American Idol?

22:02

The real lesson isn't the winner,

22:04

it's the thousands of... people who

22:06

audition and it's the many many

22:08

many many hundreds of those people

22:10

many of whom are in their

22:12

early twenties who realize that incredibly

22:14

they're not going to be the

22:16

American Idol in fact many of

22:18

them realize to their wonder and

22:21

horror that they can't sing at

22:23

all and they realize it on

22:25

national television as they're standing there

22:27

watching their dreams crumble around them

22:29

watching their passion drain out of

22:31

them when they realize, like I

22:33

said earlier, just because you love

22:35

something, doesn't mean you can't suck

22:37

at it. And conversely, just because

22:39

you don't feel passionate about a

22:41

thing, doesn't mean you can't change

22:43

the way you feel about something.

22:45

I get a lot of pushback

22:47

in this conversation, Hala, because it

22:49

sounds like what I'm saying is

22:51

screw your dreams. I don't care

22:53

about your dreams. Don't follow your

22:55

dreams. And then it's true, I

22:58

am saying all those things. And

23:00

I say them every day, many

23:02

times to people who apply to

23:04

our scholarship program. But I'm not

23:06

saying your dreams aren't important. What

23:08

I'm saying is your dreams are

23:10

way too important. Your passion is

23:12

way too important to follow. You

23:14

don't follow a thing that's important.

23:16

If you identify a thing that's

23:18

important, you take it with you.

23:20

You put it in your pocket

23:22

and you say, okay. I'm a

23:24

passionate person and I'm passionate about

23:26

learning how to build homes, but

23:28

if I can't, if I can't

23:30

crack that nut, am I really

23:33

going to spend 50 years beating

23:35

my head against the wall or

23:37

am I going to change my

23:39

course? So look, it's a hard

23:41

thing to do on your own

23:43

and that's why friends are important

23:45

and that's why the unexamined life

23:47

is a tragedy. You have to

23:49

kick your own tires. And sometimes

23:51

you just have to pick up

23:53

the phone in your cubicle so

23:55

your mom can tell you, no,

23:57

not that way, this way. Try

23:59

this and... Instead, wouldn't it be fun

24:01

if your pop could see you doing something

24:03

that looked like work? She didn't call

24:06

and say, hey, you know what you

24:08

should think about doing is maybe changing

24:10

the topography of the Discovery Channel by

24:12

taking reality TV at its literal definition

24:14

and reimagining yourself as a guest instead

24:16

of a host. And she said that

24:18

I would have hung up on her

24:20

and told her to stop drinking so

24:22

early in the day. But all she

24:24

said was do something that looks like

24:26

work. It was just the right thing

24:28

for her to say, and just the

24:30

right time for me to hear it.

24:32

At 42, had this happened to me

24:35

10 years earlier, I wouldn't have

24:37

been able to handle the success

24:39

of a show like Dirty Jobs.

24:41

I just wasn't mentally prepared for

24:44

it. So, you never know. I just love

24:46

the realistic approach that you take just

24:48

to life and careers, and I feel

24:50

like it's really smart because... I see

24:52

it all the time. People think they're

24:55

going to become TikTok stars or Instagram

24:57

stars or celebrities and actors and actresses

24:59

and they waste so much time and

25:01

they end up just not doing any

25:03

work because they're waiting for like that

25:06

big opportunity and they don't realize that

25:08

it's all the hard work and the

25:10

opportunities that don't look sexy that are

25:12

actually going to get you to where

25:14

you want to go. I'm just sitting here

25:16

nodding and violent agreement. It's back to

25:19

cookie cutter advice unfortunately. We all need

25:21

to hear exactly what you just said

25:23

at some point in our life, but

25:26

we don't all need to hear that

25:28

at the same time, because we're on

25:30

a trip. This is a journey.

25:32

I just had this conversation with

25:34

my mom again, not to drag

25:37

her back into it, but it's

25:39

really apropos. This woman wrote every

25:41

day for 60 years. I'm not

25:43

even kidding. Her dream was to

25:45

become a published writer, and she

25:47

gave up on that dream. After

25:49

40 years of beating her head

25:51

against the wall, but she never

25:53

stopped writing. She kept doing it

25:55

because she knew the work. She

25:57

found a passion in the work.

26:00

Her dream of being a best-selling

26:02

author was out the window until

26:04

she turned 80. Then she sold

26:06

a manuscript and it went to

26:08

number four on the New York

26:11

Times best-seller list. That's so amazing.

26:13

And then, two years later, she

26:15

freaking did it again. I mean,

26:17

if you want the persistence wrap,

26:19

this is the story. She's 80 and

26:22

she writes a book called About My

26:24

Mother. She's 82 and she writes about

26:26

your father. That thing also... Top 10.

26:28

Then she writes, vacuuming in the nude

26:30

and other ways to get attention, which

26:32

goes to number one. And then she

26:35

just wrote her fourth, oh no, not

26:37

the home. True stories about life in

26:39

this retirement community. I don't mean to

26:41

turn this in a commercial for her

26:43

books. What I mean to say is,

26:45

what are we to learn from a

26:48

woman who wrote every day for 60

26:50

years before she got what she

26:52

wanted? It actually contradicts and makes

26:54

my point at the same time.

26:56

Based on that. I said, Mom,

26:59

so what do you tell a

27:01

writer who comes to you and

27:03

says, do you have any advice?

27:05

Because it's a very heavy thing.

27:07

If you encourage somebody to do

27:09

what you did, the odds are

27:11

very good they're never going to

27:13

get published and they're going to

27:15

spend 60 years making little rocks

27:17

on a big rocks. But if

27:19

you discourage them, then you're this

27:21

sweet little America's grandmother who's going

27:23

around killing people's dreams. How do

27:25

you square that? I encourage them

27:27

the way somebody in the crowd

27:30

of a marathon might encourage

27:32

a runner. I just stand there and

27:34

I applaud as they go by. And

27:37

maybe I offer them a sip of

27:39

cool water to make their journey a

27:41

little more pleasant in that

27:43

moment. But that's all I

27:46

can do as somebody who

27:48

finally got to do what she

27:50

wanted to do at 87. All I

27:52

can do is encourage you at

27:54

whatever... point you are in your

27:56

race, that you better be

27:58

enjoying the race. because there

28:00

is no guarantee that you're going to

28:03

hit the finish line. Let's hold that

28:05

thought and take a quick break with

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need. So I want to switch gears here. I

32:36

want to talk about skilled trades and we're here

32:38

talking about how it's really hard to become a

32:40

famous actor, famous podcast or whatever it is. You're

32:42

not really pushing young kids to do that. You

32:44

were actually pushing young kids to keep the lights

32:46

on, keep the water running in America and you've

32:48

got this. Foundation, the micro foundation, you've done like

32:50

over I think 12 million dollars in scholarships, just

32:52

absolutely amazing. And on your website, you say that

32:54

America has declared a war on work and the

32:57

casualties are all around us. So how has America

32:59

made work the enemy? Well, in a lot of

33:01

ways, I think one way is exactly what we've

33:03

been talking about. We've told kids... that job satisfaction

33:05

is a result of their ability to make their

33:07

dreams a reality. It kind of starts with that.

33:09

And so you put this incredible burden on a

33:11

kid to say look if you want to be

33:13

happy with your life you need to identify right

33:15

now. the thing that's going

33:17

to make you happy

33:19

and then we'll embark upon

33:21

a plan to borrow

33:23

vast sums of money in

33:26

order to get you

33:28

the proper credentials that will

33:30

permit you to pursue

33:32

this goal. That's baked in.

33:34

It's kind of like

33:36

not to digress, but it's

33:38

like a soulmate. If

33:40

you're out there looking for

33:42

your soulmate, that's like

33:44

looking for your dream job.

33:46

It's really hard to

33:48

find. Better to find a

33:50

job and then craft

33:53

it into the thing you

33:55

want. Better to find

33:57

a good and decent person

33:59

you can trust and

34:01

then find a way to

34:03

love him or her.

34:05

I know I'm saying the

34:07

same thing in a

34:09

slightly different way, but we've

34:11

got it so inculcated

34:13

in the minds of this

34:15

generation that they could

34:17

be the next American Idol.

34:19

All you have to

34:22

do is want it bad

34:24

enough. Yeah, to that

34:26

I do say bullshit. I'm

34:28

sorry, but wanting a

34:30

thing is not enough. So

34:32

the first order of

34:34

business is to get a

34:36

more realistic set of

34:38

expectations. Then you have to

34:40

take an honest look

34:42

at the opportunities that exist.

34:44

Again, I'm not saying

34:46

ignore your dreams. I'm just

34:49

saying take a breath

34:51

and just push them aside

34:53

for a minute and

34:55

look around to where the

34:57

opportunities really and truly

34:59

are. Right now they're 8

35:01

.7 million open jobs. Most

35:03

of them don't require

35:05

a four -year degree. What

35:07

they require is training and

35:09

the mastery of a

35:11

skill that's in demand. That's

35:13

not my opinion. That's

35:15

just the way it is.

35:18

Other facts worth thinking

35:20

about are the 1 .7

35:22

trillion dollars in student loans

35:24

that are currently on

35:26

the books. That's a fact.

35:28

It's a fact that

35:30

most of the people who

35:32

hold that debt don't

35:34

even have a degree. Debt

35:36

includes people who got

35:38

halfway through a college experience

35:40

and threw their hands

35:42

up and said, no, well,

35:44

yeah, you can walk

35:47

away from the university, but

35:49

you can't walk away

35:51

from that debt. It's a

35:53

fact that many people

35:55

who did graduate in their

35:57

chosen field are either

35:59

not working at all. not working

36:01

in their chosen field. And that debt is real

36:03

to them too. So I spend a lot of

36:05

time saying, look, that amount of

36:07

debt didn't happen by accident.

36:09

And that amount of open positions

36:12

in our country, many of which

36:14

are in the skilled trades, that

36:16

didn't happen by accident. It happened

36:18

because we told a whole generation that

36:21

you can have whatever you want if

36:23

you want it bad enough. And then

36:25

we took shop class out of high

36:27

school. When I was in high school. Sure,

36:29

you took music and you took English and

36:32

math and all the normal stuff, but then

36:34

you could walk down the same hallway and

36:36

stick your head in a wood shop or

36:38

an auto shop or a metal shop. And

36:40

even if those things, those pursuits weren't

36:42

your dream, even if they weren't really

36:45

of interest, you could at least see

36:47

them. You could at least know that,

36:49

oh, that's what work looks like. Those

36:51

jobs are real. They're not vocational consolationation

36:53

prizes prizes for people who... who

36:56

can't do the other thing, they're

36:58

actually really important and we're not

37:00

going to have much of a

37:03

country if that skills gap isn't

37:05

filled. But it didn't matter. We

37:07

took shop class out of high

37:10

school and over 40 years or

37:12

so we just drilled it into

37:14

our heads that trade schools and

37:16

the kinds of jobs that a

37:18

trade school education can lead to

37:21

are somehow subordinate to a TikTok

37:23

influencer or a successful podcaster. or

37:25

a successful TV host or an

37:27

accountant or of somebody on Wall

37:29

Street or down the list it

37:32

goes. So we're in the fix

37:34

we're in right now because we've

37:36

been lending money we don't have

37:38

to kids who never are going

37:41

to be able to pay it

37:43

back to perpetuate dreams that aren't

37:45

going to be realized. So what

37:47

does that mean to me? That

37:49

goes back to the missionary position,

37:52

which I had not thought about

37:54

really until Dirty Jobs. became a

37:56

hit in like a real hit

37:59

in 2000. Six and then by

38:01

2008 it was the number one

38:03

show on cable when our country

38:05

went into a recession a bad

38:08

one and that's when all of

38:10

this started I saw the unemployment

38:12

numbers every single day at its

38:14

worst there were 12 million people

38:16

looking for jobs, but the crazy

38:18

thing was on on dirty jobs

38:21

everywhere we went we saw help

38:23

wanted signs and so I would

38:25

have these conversations with a lot

38:27

of small business owners who would

38:29

welcome me and my crew into

38:31

their place of work. And we

38:34

would sit and we would talk

38:36

after filming all day long and

38:38

it was always the same story.

38:40

When I said, what's your biggest

38:42

challenge? It was finding people who

38:44

are enthusiastically willing to either hit

38:47

the reset button and learn a

38:49

skill that's in demand, show up

38:51

early, stay late. I just heard

38:53

it constantly. And then the Bureau

38:55

of Labor and Statistics came out

38:57

with this stat that really freaked

39:00

everybody out. They were like, they're

39:02

2.3 million open positions in 2009

39:04

that employers can't fill. Even though

39:06

you got 12 million people out

39:08

of work, you've got all of

39:10

these jobs, many of which are

39:13

a straight path to a six-figure

39:15

income, and nobody wanted them. So

39:17

micro works started as a PR

39:19

campaign for those jobs. It turned

39:21

into a trade resource center. Fans

39:23

of Dirty Jobs helped me build

39:26

this online destination where anybody could

39:28

go and look at the opportunities

39:30

that existed in all kinds of

39:32

different trades. And then it became

39:34

the scholarship program you mentioned. We

39:36

award work ethic scholarships. We do

39:39

a few million every year and

39:41

they're only for trade schools. And

39:43

again, there's nothing wrong with a

39:45

four-year education. I have one, actually.

39:47

It served me well. But in

39:49

1984, two years in a community

39:52

college and three years in a

39:54

university cost me $12,900. Same exact

39:56

course load today in the same

39:58

schools is close to 90 grand.

40:00

So it's just no longer tenable.

40:02

And so today, Micro Works, it's

40:05

still a PR campaign for a

40:07

bunch of good jobs that people

40:09

aren't excited about. But it's also

40:11

a scholarship fund. It's also become,

40:13

and I don't know how this

40:15

happened, but I woke up one

40:18

morning and it was the sun

40:20

in my solar system. It was

40:22

the thing that had been there

40:24

longer than any other thing. I'm

40:26

working on three different shows, I

40:28

got a podcast, I got books,

40:31

I got to be, I've got

40:33

a great business and a fun

40:35

life, but my mother still makes

40:37

fun of me now because she's

40:39

like, oh Michael, your grandfather would

40:41

be so proud of you. This

40:44

is the thing in your life.

40:46

This is the thing that makes

40:48

you not an asshole. Yeah, it's

40:50

awesome what you're doing for so

40:52

many kids. It's awesome how you

40:54

are basically... trying to change culture

40:57

in America because a lot of

40:59

this is just our culture and

41:01

what we value in terms of

41:03

what is an acceptable job. So

41:05

when you are on dirty jobs,

41:07

what were some of the stereotypes

41:10

that you saw about blue collar

41:12

work and dirty jobs that you

41:14

feel like we're just so inaccurate

41:16

that you want to share with

41:18

people? Consciously, it didn't occur to

41:20

me for a while because the

41:23

truth is I had become disconnected

41:25

from some really primal and fundamental

41:27

things that as a boy I

41:29

was very mindful of. This is

41:31

not to put myself on a

41:33

couch, but it was really interesting.

41:36

As a teenager, I knew where

41:38

my food came from. I was

41:40

always on a farm at some

41:42

point helping bring the food in.

41:44

I knew where my energy came

41:46

from. I was very close to

41:49

people who worked in the mines,

41:51

people who worked in the oil

41:53

fields. I had a real appreciation

41:55

for the miracle. of flicking a

41:57

switch and actually seeing the lights

41:59

come on and flushing the toilet

42:02

and watching the crap go away.

42:04

I mean, I was gobsmacked by

42:06

that as a kid. And what

42:08

happens in life, we get busy.

42:10

We all just get busy. And

42:12

it's so easy to lose your

42:15

sense of wonder and appreciation for

42:17

the miracle of our infrastructure, the

42:19

miracle of affordable electricity, and really

42:21

the way that we're all similarly

42:23

addicted to smooth roads and indoor

42:25

plumbing. and heating and air conditioning

42:28

and all that stuff. I only

42:30

mentioned it because by the time

42:32

I was 42, I had lost

42:34

all of that on a personal

42:36

level. I just wasn't in touch

42:38

anymore with a lot of people

42:41

in the trades the way I

42:43

used to be. And I had

42:45

been freelancing the way I described

42:47

for all those years. And to

42:49

be honest, I was kind of

42:51

arrogant, I think, in the sense

42:54

that I thought I had truly

42:56

cracked the code. I had figured

42:58

it out. And I was comfortable.

43:00

in all of that. Well, my

43:02

mom makes that phone call to

43:04

me and I go in the

43:07

sewer and then discovery orders it

43:09

and then it turns into this

43:11

hit and then the honest answer

43:13

to your question is that that's

43:15

when my education started when I

43:17

was 42, 43 years old and

43:20

what happens is if you spend

43:22

200 nights a year flying around

43:24

working with dirty jobbers and small

43:26

business people who are doing this

43:28

kind of work, usually out of

43:31

sight and out of mind. you

43:33

learn more than you think you'll

43:35

learn. It's not just about, oh,

43:37

what is that job? How does

43:39

that work? It's more like, well,

43:41

who is that? Who is that

43:44

guy? And why is he doing

43:46

what he's doing? And the answer

43:48

to your question is, if you're

43:50

actually curious, and if you're me,

43:52

then when you start to get

43:54

reconnected to these things that you

43:57

know are important, I mean, this

43:59

sounds uncharacteristically earnest of me, but

44:01

it's true. It made me grateful,

44:03

in a way. not just for

44:05

my job or for my career,

44:07

it literally made me grateful to

44:10

know that Gene Cruz is in

44:12

the sewers making Polite Society possible

44:14

in San Francisco and that Bob

44:16

Combs is running his pig farm

44:18

outside of Las Vegas in a

44:20

way that's not only environmentally friendly,

44:23

but potentially a model for a

44:25

lot of other farms. And I

44:27

just found myself genuinely engaged and

44:29

interested in a lot of things

44:31

that I had forgotten about. And

44:33

that's what brings you to the

44:36

fact that, good God, why are

44:38

there so many stigmas and stereotypes

44:40

and myths and misperceptions around this

44:42

work? Why, for instance, are people

44:44

so skeptical and dubious that you

44:46

can make $180,000 a year welding?

44:49

Today, I know dozens of people

44:51

who do in all different types

44:53

of welding. I know plumbers who

44:55

make $250, 300,000 a year. Plenty

44:57

of them. Some have come through

44:59

my own foundation. So when you

45:02

say what kind of myths, you

45:04

know, I think the first one

45:06

is that people just don't believe

45:08

you can make six figures working

45:10

with your hands. Well, you can

45:12

make a lot more than that.

45:15

People don't believe there are any

45:17

opportunities in the trades for women.

45:19

That's insane. Companies are falling over

45:21

themselves now to hire young women

45:23

who want to learn these kinds

45:25

of skills. There's a long list

45:28

of things that inform our ideas.

45:30

These ideas are with us, these

45:32

beliefs are with us, and like

45:34

most dangerous beliefs, they're not wholly

45:36

untrue. There's truth in everything, but

45:38

there is no truth in the

45:41

idea. The best path for the

45:43

most people is going to be

45:45

the most expensive path, or that

45:47

this whole category of jobs, it

45:49

does require people to get up

45:51

early and stay late and work

45:54

hard, are in some way subordinate

45:56

to these other jobs. I would

45:58

just say that if we want

46:00

a balanced workforce, and believe me

46:02

we need one then we have

46:04

to stop thinking about blue collar

46:07

versus white collar. The color of

46:09

collars, who cares? That ship sailed.

46:11

We're entering a new era and

46:13

it's going to be defined by

46:15

AI and robotics and it's going

46:17

to be defined by what I

46:20

used to call the muddy boots

46:22

architect, people who can work with

46:24

their hands and think with their

46:26

brain and are willing to do

46:28

both. That's really where the opportunities

46:30

are in my view today. Not

46:33

all of them, but those are

46:35

the ones that have been. underserved,

46:37

pushed aside. And as a result,

46:39

I get, not a week goes

46:41

by where I don't get a

46:43

phone call that I would call

46:46

chilling. I got a call not

46:48

long ago from a guy who

46:50

runs an organization called Blue Forge

46:52

Alliance. Is this bring any bells?

46:54

No. Okay. So the Blue Forge

46:56

Alliance oversees something called the American

46:59

submarine industrial base. That base... is

47:01

a collection of 15,000 individual companies,

47:03

some large, some small, but all

47:05

of whom collectively are responsible for

47:07

building half a dozen nuclear-powered submarines

47:09

over the next decade. Virginia and

47:12

Columbia class, these things are mind-boggling.

47:14

The tech, the skill that it

47:16

takes to build one, they're longer

47:18

than the Washington Monument is tall.

47:20

In fact, they build them vertically,

47:22

which is a trip to watch.

47:25

Point is... This guy calls and

47:27

he says, yeah, so they advertise

47:29

on my podcast, full disclosure now.

47:31

But he says, look, we need

47:33

to hire in the next nine

47:35

years 100,000 trades people, 100,000. Now,

47:38

that's incredible. I mean, there's already

47:40

a skills gap. And every major

47:42

company in this country who relies

47:44

on skilled labor is currently struggling.

47:46

But I hadn't heard a number

47:48

that big yet. And this guy

47:51

says to me, we've been looking

47:53

all over the over the place.

47:55

For these trades people, do you

47:57

know where they are? And I

47:59

laughed and I said, well, yeah,

48:01

actually, I do. I know exactly

48:04

where they are. And he said, where? And

48:06

I said, they're in the eighth grade, man.

48:08

They're in the eighth grade. And so

48:10

what's happening in the country right now

48:12

is that companies are beginning to realize

48:15

they need to make a more persuasive

48:17

case for a whole bunch of good

48:19

jobs that are really important to all

48:21

of us. And they need to do

48:24

that in junior high and high school.

48:26

On the other hand, right now in real time,

48:28

as I'm talking to you, we need to

48:30

make a more persuasive case for those

48:32

eight and a half million jobs that

48:34

currently exist, which is all a long

48:36

way of saying, I don't know how

48:39

many people who are listening to this

48:41

thing should be working in the trades,

48:43

but I can tell you that the

48:45

opportunities are absolutely real, and there's

48:47

never been a better time to at

48:49

least kick the tires in that world,

48:52

and see if it makes sense to your

48:54

brain. Because we've helped 2,200 people get

48:56

the training they need and their stories,

48:58

their stories are way more persuasive than my

49:00

own and I hear them every day. That's

49:03

the point that I want to get across

49:05

in this podcast is that all of

49:07

us are so focused, a lot of

49:09

us, like I'm an online entrepreneur, I

49:11

have a social media agency, I have

49:14

a podcast network, I have this podcast,

49:16

I basically have three businesses, and I'm

49:18

an online entrepreneur, but I excel at

49:20

those things, I'm a great marketer, it's

49:22

always come really easily for me. But

49:24

I have peers that I've seen that,

49:27

for example, like, want to be a

49:29

doctor, I want to be a lawyer,

49:31

and they've been studying for their tests,

49:33

and they just keep studying, and they

49:35

keep studying, and they can never pass

49:38

the test, and they can never pass

49:40

the test, and they can never

49:42

pass the test, and they can

49:44

never pass the test, and they

49:46

can never pass the test, and

49:48

then they end up just studying

49:50

and never pass the test, and

49:52

then they end up really. dreamed

49:54

about doing but are really lucrative

49:56

and skilled trades. I had Cody

49:58

Sanchez on the show. And she

50:00

talks about boring businesses. And she's

50:02

all about finding and buying boring

50:04

businesses, Main Street businesses. And so

50:06

she'll teach people how to value

50:08

a business and kind of take

50:11

it over and to stop worrying

50:13

about just having a sexy business.

50:15

You can buy a roofing company

50:17

and become a multi-millionaire or a

50:19

window cleaning company or a landscaping

50:21

company or a laundromat, right? So

50:23

it's just like real jobs, doesn't

50:25

have to be sexy, doesn't have

50:27

to be online. can make you

50:29

a lot of money. So I'd

50:31

love to hear some stories from

50:33

you in terms of real entrepreneurs

50:35

that are doing incredible work that

50:37

you've met either on dirty jobs

50:40

or maybe the students that come

50:42

out of your scholarships and what

50:44

they've been able to achieve and

50:46

how becoming an entrepreneur in this

50:48

space is actually a really great

50:50

financial opportunity. My God, there's so

50:52

many. Please hook me up with

50:54

Miss Sanchez. Oh well, I well.

50:56

She's awesome. Yeah, I love to

50:58

meet her. But I love to

51:00

know too. Before I answer you,

51:02

how, I mean, you just described

51:04

what you do in a pretty

51:06

broad-based way, but like, if you

51:09

really distill it, what do you

51:11

do? Like, if you had a

51:13

business card, what would it say?

51:15

What's it come down to for

51:17

you, vocationally? I scale personal brands,

51:19

I guess, is like my main

51:21

thing, monetize personal brands, scale personal

51:23

brands. Okay. So I would go

51:25

back to, I think one of

51:27

the very first things that came

51:29

out when we started talking, which

51:31

talking, which was... My pop, if

51:33

he were still around, would say,

51:35

oh, this woman, this hollow woman,

51:38

yeah, she's a, she's a tradeswoman,

51:40

clearly. And if you pressed him,

51:42

he would say, well, think about

51:44

how she approaches work. She has

51:46

many different clients. She advises them

51:48

in different ways, depending on their

51:50

needs. She's a jobber. Probably has

51:52

short-term contracts with some, longer-term contracts

51:54

with others. She's probably paid on

51:56

her results at some point. at

51:58

some point you're going to say

52:00

well if i grow your business

52:02

to this degree you know how

52:04

can i Or are you purely

52:07

time and materials? I don't know.

52:09

No wrong answer either way, but

52:11

those are all questions that trades

52:13

people with an entrepreneurial bent will

52:15

ask themselves. So I look at

52:17

myself, I think much the same

52:19

way you do in the sense

52:21

that I do a lot of

52:23

different things, but I'm really not

52:25

trying to define the work by

52:27

any one thing. One of the

52:29

things really missing from the conversation

52:31

today, whether you want to be

52:34

an influencer or whether you want

52:36

to be a plumber, the question

52:38

is, are you an entrepreneur? Do

52:40

you think like a freelancer? Do

52:42

you even like the whole notion

52:44

of a gig economy? Because the

52:46

gig economy, that's under siege. Freelancing

52:48

is under siege. Here in California,

52:50

it's a real thing. There's a

52:52

thing called AB15. It's an assembly

52:54

bill. that turned into something called

52:56

the Pro Act, which is currently

52:58

in Congress, and there's a giant

53:00

effort in this country to discourage

53:03

people from freelancing. They want more

53:05

employees. That's the relationship that a

53:07

lot of people are being pushed

53:09

into. And I think it's kind

53:11

of tragic because it kills their

53:13

entrepreneurial spirit. So to answer your

53:15

question, I got a call the

53:17

other day from... And this happens

53:19

all of the time because early

53:21

on in microworks there was nobody

53:23

but me to tell anecdotal stories

53:25

of dirty jobbers and things that

53:27

I had seen. What's happening now

53:29

and the reason the foundation is

53:32

so robust is that for the

53:34

first time I'm able to go

53:36

back five or six years ago

53:38

to check in with somebody who

53:40

we helped and ask questions like

53:42

so how's it going? And what

53:44

I do is I bring a

53:46

small crew with me. And I've

53:48

been recording the answers to that

53:50

question. And oh my God, the

53:52

stories are amazing. But Dirty Jobs

53:54

is the, I mean it's the

53:56

granddaddy of essential working shows shot

53:58

through with an entrepreneurial spirit. And

54:01

I could just talk for hours

54:03

about all of them. Not all

54:05

of them, that's a bit rich.

54:07

We did 350 different jobs, and

54:09

all of them are important. Some

54:11

are critical, some are small businesses,

54:13

others were independent contractors, others were

54:15

big companies with an employee focus.

54:17

It was a mosaic, but I'll

54:19

tell you what shocks people to

54:21

this day, and they just straight

54:23

up don't believe me when I

54:25

tell them, but I swear it's

54:27

true. If you go back and

54:30

look at old episodes of that

54:32

show, I think the exact number

54:34

was 41. 41 of the people

54:36

we profiled were multi-millionaires, and you

54:38

would have never known it, because

54:40

they were covered in crap, or

54:42

something worse, because they just didn't

54:44

look like the modern version of

54:46

what a successful aspirational aspirational aspirational...

54:48

entrepreneur looks like, but they're there

54:50

and their stories are amazing. It's

54:52

a privilege to tell them. This

54:54

is obviously an entrepreneurship show and

54:56

so I'm always telling people get

54:59

a skill and then you can

55:01

scale start an agency like that's

55:03

the easiest way that you can

55:05

start a business and it reminds

55:07

me like as we're talking getting

55:09

a skill in the real world

55:11

with a trade skill once you

55:13

learn that skill. and you figure

55:15

things out, maybe learn under somebody

55:17

else's dime, see how their business

55:19

works, you can slowly start to

55:21

build a business and basically just

55:23

bootstrap it. And everybody has this

55:25

like conception of starting a business

55:28

that they need to have a

55:30

product and they need to raise

55:32

money and they need to do

55:34

all this stuff when you can

55:36

just like start small, learn a

55:38

skill, and evolve. And there's so

55:40

many millionaires and multi-millionaires that get

55:42

started in that way. Way leads

55:44

onto Way. And part of what

55:46

I think we've lost. is patience.

55:48

We want to see a playbook,

55:50

we want to understand. And if

55:52

I do this, this, this, and

55:54

this, am I going to get

55:57

to where I want to be?

55:59

And it's reasonable. Well, it's just

56:01

not accurate. It just doesn't happen

56:03

that way. And this is my

56:05

complaint, aside from what I think

56:07

is a preponderance, a proliferation of

56:09

cookie cutter advice. It's just this

56:11

tendency among successful people to look

56:13

back and say, let me tell

56:15

you how I did it. Here's

56:17

what you do. There's nothing wrong

56:19

with doing that. In fact, it's

56:21

fun to do. But it presupposes

56:23

the idea that the people who

56:26

are reading your book and taking

56:28

your advice are you. And of

56:30

course they're not. Like I said,

56:32

the phone call I got from

56:34

my mom, I got exactly when

56:36

I needed it. And the 15

56:38

years I spent freelancing, I wouldn't

56:40

trade for anything. I loved it.

56:42

But neither would I trade where

56:44

I am now. And really, I

56:46

mean, I'll take my own advice,

56:48

even though I couldn't master any

56:50

of the trades I was interested

56:52

in. that my pop explained were

56:55

beyond my grasp. I don't know

56:57

if I've mastered anything necessarily, but

56:59

I've become fairly facile at the

57:01

things I get paid to do.

57:03

So I don't waste anybody's time.

57:05

I know how to narrate. I

57:07

can write. I know how to

57:09

do what I'm good at. And

57:11

so once you find that out,

57:13

and maybe you've seen this in

57:15

your own business, but you know,

57:17

I've done, I don't know, probably

57:19

seven shows, starting with dirty jobs

57:21

that are all out there, but

57:24

are all out there, but the

57:26

Honestly, they're all the same show.

57:28

I just changed the title every

57:30

few years. Dirty jobs, somebody's got

57:32

to do it, people you should

57:34

know, returning the favor, six degrees

57:36

even, some history shows I've worked

57:38

on. They're all a version of

57:40

me tapping the country on the

57:42

shoulder and saying, what about her?

57:44

What about him? Get a load

57:46

of that. Look at what they're

57:48

doing over there. That's my brand,

57:50

to the extent that that that

57:53

can be a brand. That's my

57:55

trade. And that's why I ask

57:57

you before I ask you before.

57:59

How do you really see yourself

58:01

and that at the risk of

58:03

contradiction? that is some advice that

58:05

I would offer to really to

58:07

anyone. It's really like take your

58:09

own inventory and be really honest

58:11

with yourself and ask yourself how

58:13

do you how have you been

58:15

defining yourself? Because who you are

58:17

and what you do, it becomes

58:19

more crystallized when you hang a

58:22

label on it for better or

58:24

worse. And so for me, it

58:26

was useful for a while to

58:28

see myself as a host. and

58:30

to see host in the credits.

58:32

Okay, that's what Mike does. He's

58:34

a host, and I'll work for

58:36

a bunch of people being a

58:38

host. But the truth is, I

58:40

would probably still be doing that

58:42

kind of thing had I not

58:44

had that moment in the sewer.

58:46

The Greeks call it a parapetia.

58:48

It's a moment in the narrative

58:51

when the hero of the story

58:53

or the protagonist realizes that everything

58:55

he thought he knew about himself

58:57

was wrong. And it's like those

58:59

are the moments that I that

59:01

I find myself most interested in

59:03

in in people's lives. Not when

59:05

they realize they were on the

59:07

right track, but when they knew

59:09

they were on the wrong one.

59:11

And like if you're if you're

59:13

really interested in storytelling and you

59:15

start to look for parapetias, you'll

59:17

you'll find them everywhere. You remember

59:20

the six cents? Yep. That's a

59:22

great example of a modern parapetia.

59:24

You got Bruce Willis. and he's

59:26

a psychologist and he's helping this

59:28

little kid who sees dead people

59:30

and all through the the movie

59:32

their relationship develops and Bruce is

59:34

very fond of this kid but

59:36

he's crazy obviously he's mentally troubled

59:38

and that's what Bruce Willis believes

59:40

and that's what informs everything he

59:42

does and then in the final

59:44

act of the movie he realizes

59:46

this little kid really can see

59:49

dead people and therefore he realizes

59:51

in that moment oh shit that's

59:53

why he can see me I'm

59:55

dead. I've been dead the whole

59:57

movie! So like when you realize

59:59

you've been dead the whole movie,

1:00:01

when you're... realize you're actually not

1:00:03

really a host. You're not really

1:00:05

the thing you've been seeing when

1:00:07

you look in the mirror. And

1:00:09

it's true, I think, honestly, of

1:00:11

all of us. We are who

1:00:13

we see in the mirror, but

1:00:15

we can decide to call that

1:00:18

reflection whatever we want. And that

1:00:20

makes a difference. So if my

1:00:22

buddy Jake sees himself as a

1:00:24

welder, period, he's never going to

1:00:26

go on to run a mechanical

1:00:28

contracting company. And if I see

1:00:30

myself as a host, period, then,

1:00:32

hey, look, Ryan Seacrest had a

1:00:34

pretty great life, but that's not

1:00:36

the life I want. I don't

1:00:38

want to be a host. Not

1:00:40

forever. I wanted to change that.

1:00:42

I would say to people, like,

1:00:45

really think about it. Are you

1:00:47

sure you're a lawyer? Are you

1:00:49

sure you're a brand consultant? Or,

1:00:51

I mean, maybe, maybe that's exactly

1:00:53

what you ought to be right

1:00:55

now. Maybe that makes sense. Maybe

1:00:57

everything's firing. and you'll probably be

1:00:59

looking around going, oh God, somebody

1:01:01

moved my cheese, right? Something changed.

1:01:03

I want to mix it up

1:01:05

a little bit. Well, what are

1:01:07

you going to do? How are

1:01:09

you going to mix it up?

1:01:11

I would say maybe one of

1:01:14

the ways is to think about,

1:01:16

think about a different business card,

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different label. We'll be right back

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after a quick break from our

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has been such an awesome conversation,

1:06:12

Mike. I really enjoyed it. My last

1:06:14

question to you before I asked a

1:06:17

couple kind of close-out questions is really

1:06:19

like, how do we think it's all

1:06:21

going to change? Like I know you

1:06:24

started your foundation in 2008. So much

1:06:26

has changed since then, but what needs

1:06:28

to happen. so that some of these

1:06:31

stereotypes go away so that we see

1:06:33

more young men being employed and things,

1:06:35

you know, are changed for the

1:06:38

better. The happy answer is

1:06:40

we need to carpet bomb

1:06:42

the country with myriad examples

1:06:44

of guys like Jake and

1:06:47

women like Chloe Hudson and

1:06:49

other scholarship recipient who's living

1:06:51

basically the exact same life.

1:06:53

People who are thriving. as

1:06:56

a direct result of mastering

1:06:58

a skill that's in demand.

1:07:00

To make the skills gap close

1:07:02

and to challenge the primacy of

1:07:05

a four-year degree, we need to

1:07:07

make sure that parents and guidance

1:07:09

counselors and everyone in every state

1:07:11

has a steady diet of examples

1:07:14

of the very thing I'm talking

1:07:16

about. The good news is those

1:07:18

examples are out there, my job

1:07:21

in the missionary side of things.

1:07:23

is to do a better job

1:07:25

of sharing those stories. The more

1:07:27

cynical part of me says what

1:07:30

needs to happen for the

1:07:32

ship to truly turn around

1:07:34

and for the Blue Forge

1:07:36

Alliance to find the 100,000

1:07:38

trades people that they need

1:07:40

in the next nine years

1:07:42

is unfortunately things need to

1:07:44

get a little worse before

1:07:46

they get better. And going

1:07:48

splat is never fun, but

1:07:50

sometimes that's what needs to

1:07:52

happen. for people to really think

1:07:54

twice about the value of the

1:07:57

Ivy League, maybe they need to

1:07:59

see the Ivy League. affirmatively discriminating

1:08:01

against free speech. Maybe they need to

1:08:03

see the leaders of certain universities be

1:08:06

found guilty of plagiarism, which they clearly

1:08:08

were. Maybe these bad things need to

1:08:10

happen in some ways to create some

1:08:12

kind of wake-up call inside that institution.

1:08:15

Maybe in order to understand that the

1:08:17

only way. to really live in harmony

1:08:19

with nature is to control burn, to

1:08:21

clear the forest from time to time,

1:08:24

to do the thing that's uncomfortable to

1:08:26

watch, and to get that through our

1:08:28

head, maybe the palisades need to burn.

1:08:30

Maybe Santa Monica needs to burn. I

1:08:33

hate to say that, but maybe we

1:08:35

don't get enough skilled workers to build

1:08:37

those submarines until we get into some

1:08:40

kind of hot conflict, and we realize

1:08:42

you know something? the aircraft carriers that

1:08:44

we used to believe were the pointy

1:08:46

part of the spear are now on

1:08:49

the bottom of the ocean because they

1:08:51

have no defense against hypersonic missiles submarines

1:08:53

do but oh my god we didn't

1:08:55

know that but now we do and

1:08:58

i hope it's not too late but

1:09:00

i hope we start to think differently

1:09:02

about the definition of a good job

1:09:04

before those kinds of things go splat

1:09:07

i don't have a crystal ball but

1:09:09

i'm basically a glass half full kind

1:09:11

of guy and i know that from

1:09:14

where I'm sitting, I can see the

1:09:16

ship starting to turn. I have seen

1:09:18

more and more people step back and

1:09:20

think a little more critically about the

1:09:23

opportunities that exist and the way they

1:09:25

might interact with their own sense of

1:09:27

dreams and passions and hopes and so

1:09:29

forth. But all we can do is

1:09:32

what we can do. It's quixotic, but

1:09:34

I've been tilting at windmills my whole

1:09:36

life and pushing the rock up the

1:09:39

hill. And wait, that's not quixotic. That's

1:09:41

sissiffian. Whatever it is, all we can

1:09:43

do is what we can do is

1:09:45

what we can do is what we

1:09:48

can do. Now if somebody's interested in

1:09:50

your scholarship program, is there any sort

1:09:52

of age limit or you know, how

1:09:54

can they get involved or find out

1:09:57

more about that? There's no age limit.

1:09:59

In fact, I'm more excited when I

1:10:01

get applications from people who have hit

1:10:03

the reset button at 35 and 40

1:10:06

years old and want to go back

1:10:08

and just kind of start from scratch.

1:10:10

It takes a lot of balls to

1:10:13

do that and I appreciate it and

1:10:15

I admire it. Typically though, we're talking

1:10:17

about men and women who are just

1:10:19

coming out of high school or partway

1:10:22

through college and realizing that they want

1:10:24

to change the road they're on. If

1:10:26

you're that person, what you do is

1:10:28

you go to microworks.org and you just

1:10:31

click on the apply button and you

1:10:33

apply for a work ethic scholarship. No

1:10:35

guarantees, but you know the scholarship game

1:10:37

is simple. There are lots of different

1:10:40

scholarships out there by the way. Some

1:10:42

focus on athletic achievement, others on academic,

1:10:44

others on art. There's scholarship for everything.

1:10:47

Ours are for work ethic and the

1:10:49

skilled trades. So if a four-year degree

1:10:51

is in your future, I can't help

1:10:53

you. But if you're open to any

1:10:56

of the other jobs that require a

1:10:58

different kind of education, I'm your guy.

1:11:00

Check us out. We're here to help.

1:11:02

Amazing. Mike, you provided so much guidance.

1:11:05

I feel like people are going to

1:11:07

love this episode. You're just such a

1:11:09

great storyteller and you've got such a

1:11:12

great heart. So I just appreciate all

1:11:14

your time. I end my show with

1:11:16

two questions. I ask all my guests.

1:11:18

The first one is what is one

1:11:21

piece of actionable advice our young and

1:11:23

profitors can do today to become more

1:11:25

profitable tomorrow. Well, again, I would contradict

1:11:27

myself if I actually answered that directly,

1:11:30

because I don't know what leads to

1:11:32

profit, especially like tomorrow, if you mean

1:11:34

that in the literal 24-hour sense. It

1:11:36

took me 42 years to figure out

1:11:39

my career. So I don't know about

1:11:41

tomorrow, but I will tell you this.

1:11:43

There's nothing new to say about failure.

1:11:46

I'm sure everybody who's ever come on

1:11:48

your podcast has talked about. Failure is

1:11:50

just learning, that's where we learn how

1:11:52

blah, blah, blah, blah. So I won't

1:11:55

say that, but I will make a

1:11:57

case for the importance of being... uncomfortable.

1:11:59

If you're willing to be uncomfortable, that's

1:12:01

a step in the right direction. Because

1:12:04

discomfort doesn't necessarily mean failure. It really

1:12:06

doesn't mean anything other than are you

1:12:08

willing to be uncomfortable. Actually, it was

1:12:10

my old scout master who who told

1:12:13

me this, you know, and I hated

1:12:15

him for saying it at the time

1:12:17

and I didn't believe him for a

1:12:20

long time. But you will hear that

1:12:22

character has a lot to do with

1:12:24

a willingness to be uncomfortable, but what

1:12:26

I'm saying is... is slightly different. It's

1:12:29

great to be willing to do a

1:12:31

hard thing or to agree to volunteer

1:12:33

for a difficult thing. That's well and

1:12:35

good. The next level, though, is to

1:12:38

figure out a way to like it.

1:12:40

That's what Mr. Huntington said to me,

1:12:42

said, look, man, if you want to

1:12:44

go somewhere, it's not enough to simply

1:12:47

endure being uncomfortable. You have to find

1:12:49

a way to like it and look

1:12:51

forward to it. That's what Dirty Jobs

1:12:54

was for me. It was uncomfortable. I

1:12:56

took a pie in the face in

1:12:58

every single episode. There were broken bones

1:13:00

and I seared off my eyelashes and

1:13:03

my eyelid. I mean, it was just,

1:13:05

it was painful. It was painful. But

1:13:07

the Navy SEAL say the same thing.

1:13:09

Embrace the suck. Look forward to it.

1:13:12

Take a cold plunge. It's good for

1:13:14

you and it's miserable, but you feel

1:13:16

great afterwards. There's so many things you

1:13:19

can do, little things to reintroduce, to

1:13:21

reintroduce, the kind of discomfort that usually

1:13:23

leads to something good. I love that.

1:13:25

And what would you say is your

1:13:28

secret to profiting in life? And now

1:13:30

this can go beyond financial. Just what

1:13:32

do you feel like is your secret

1:13:34

to a successful life? Well, a couple

1:13:37

things come to mind, but I'm going

1:13:39

to go with the word you used

1:13:41

earlier, because I love it, and the

1:13:43

word is pivot. It has to do

1:13:46

with changing your course, but still, still.

1:13:48

being persistent. It has to do with

1:13:50

a word you don't hear. a lot

1:13:53

about any more which is initiative. God,

1:13:55

that's in talk about which in short

1:13:57

supply. That's what every employer I know

1:13:59

is just dying, dying to find people

1:14:02

with initiative. But I'll go back to

1:14:04

pivoting. I've always known it was important,

1:14:06

but it wasn't until the lockdowns that

1:14:08

I saw just how clarifying that was.

1:14:11

And I mean, it was pivot or

1:14:13

perish. It was adapt or die. and

1:14:15

how many businesses went out of business

1:14:17

because they just sat around waiting to

1:14:20

be told what to do, where they

1:14:22

just got into that, okay, two weeks

1:14:24

to flatten the curve, I'll wait another

1:14:27

two weeks, I'll wait two more, meanwhile,

1:14:29

life is happening right in front of

1:14:31

you. I remember two weeks into that,

1:14:33

I called the president of the Discovery

1:14:36

Channel, and I said, hey, this can't

1:14:38

be good for you guys, I mean

1:14:40

your whole pipeline of content. relies on

1:14:42

people going out into the world and

1:14:45

working and we can't go out into

1:14:47

the world now and she said Look

1:14:49

I know I know we're freaking out

1:14:51

over here any ideas and I had

1:14:54

just read an article on this thing

1:14:56

called zoom I'd never heard of zoom

1:14:58

I thought it was just some some

1:15:01

adjective or something like zoom whatever but

1:15:03

I looked at I'm like wait a

1:15:05

minute people are talking people are having

1:15:07

like meetings this thing is connecting people

1:15:10

in a totally new way I said

1:15:12

what if we um What if we

1:15:14

call the crab boat captains from deadliest

1:15:16

catch, which I've been narrating for 21

1:15:19

years? And I'm like, what if we

1:15:21

do a zoom call and record it?

1:15:23

And what if you put that on

1:15:26

at 9 p.m. as a show at

1:15:28

a time when we're all literally like

1:15:30

in the same boat, what if you

1:15:32

go to crab boat captains to talk

1:15:35

about what's happening in the lockdowns and

1:15:37

get their take on it? So we

1:15:39

did it. And we were the first

1:15:41

zoom show to ever err in prime

1:15:44

time. That happened about a month into

1:15:46

the lockdowns. And then after that I

1:15:48

was like look I don't care what

1:15:50

it takes I'm going to put this

1:15:53

show back in production I got my

1:15:55

old crew. together and we went out

1:15:57

into the world and we started filming

1:16:00

a new season of dirty jobs. That

1:16:02

show went out of production in 2012.

1:16:04

We went back into production in 2020

1:16:06

and I'm proud of that not because

1:16:09

it was particularly great although frankly I

1:16:11

thought it was pretty good. I was

1:16:13

proud because my my crew was so

1:16:15

anxious to pivot and the network was

1:16:18

willing to pivot and I was desperate

1:16:20

to pivot and being allowed to pivot

1:16:22

when you feel like that's what you

1:16:24

got to do. That's Freedom 101 and

1:16:27

being willing to pivot, even into something

1:16:29

uncomfortable. That's life. Mike, this has been

1:16:31

an amazing conversation. Where can everybody learn

1:16:34

more about you? Everything that you do.

1:16:36

I know you've got a very popular

1:16:38

podcast, the way that I heard it,

1:16:40

tell everybody where they can find you.

1:16:43

The way I heard it is probably

1:16:45

playing right where this podcast is playing,

1:16:47

you know, Spotify, Apple, wherever people get

1:16:49

podcasts. I talk to people I find

1:16:52

interesting, interesting, mysteries that we put on

1:16:54

the podcast, that turned into a show

1:16:56

and those have been a lot of

1:16:58

fun as well. The shows are all

1:17:01

out there. I'm still narrating a bunch

1:17:03

of stuff. Dirty Jobs is still on

1:17:05

every day on the Discovery Channel. God

1:17:08

bless them. Working on a new show

1:17:10

called People You Should Know. That'll be

1:17:12

coming to YouTube. And there's a website

1:17:14

with my name in it called mikero.com

1:17:17

and of course, nine or 10 million

1:17:19

people somehow or another on Facebook and

1:17:21

Instagram. Still pretend to care what I

1:17:23

say what I'd be honored if you

1:17:26

join them. And most importantly, microworks.org. We

1:17:28

got a big pile of money there.

1:17:30

I'm desperate to give away to people

1:17:33

who want to learn a trade. So

1:17:35

if that's you, go get some. Amazing.

1:17:37

Mike, thank you for all that you

1:17:39

do. Thank you for coming on the

1:17:42

show and for everything that you do

1:17:44

for the world. Thanks for having me.

1:17:50

Yeah, fam. I truly enjoyed this

1:17:52

conversation with micro. In fact, this

1:17:54

was one of my favorite conversations

1:17:56

ever on the podcast. Can you

1:17:58

say instant? Yeah. Classic? He's got

1:18:00

such a refreshing and pragmatic view

1:18:02

of life and career development. And

1:18:04

like Mike Rose said, there's a

1:18:06

lot of cookie cutter advice out

1:18:08

there. And there's certainly no shortage

1:18:10

of self-help books, YouTube channels, social

1:18:12

media feeds that tell you to

1:18:14

follow your passion, never give up,

1:18:16

and don't stop until you achieve

1:18:18

your dreams. But of course, life

1:18:20

is more complicated than this. You're

1:18:22

not going to become the next

1:18:24

big influence or just because you've

1:18:26

worked hard and you want it

1:18:28

badly. So many young entrepreneurs harbor

1:18:30

these unrealistic expectations of becoming overnight

1:18:32

sensations or celebrities. And what many

1:18:34

fail to realize is that success

1:18:36

is typically built on a foundation

1:18:38

of more realistic expectations. And yes,

1:18:40

a willingness to embrace less glamorous

1:18:42

opportunities. Sometimes like Mike, you've got

1:18:44

to be willing to go out

1:18:46

and freelance for years. selling your

1:18:48

skills to a number of clients,

1:18:50

picking up new skills along the

1:18:52

way. And don't be afraid to

1:18:54

learn a trade and use your

1:18:56

hands as well as your brain,

1:18:58

or like Cody Sanchez suggests, to

1:19:00

start a boring business like a

1:19:02

laundromat or a car wash. You

1:19:04

can start small, learn an expertise,

1:19:06

and then go from there. Just

1:19:08

remember that as Mike put it,

1:19:10

nobody else's playbook is going to

1:19:12

work for you. You're going to

1:19:14

have to write your own as

1:19:16

you go along. Thanks for listening

1:19:18

to this episode of Young and

1:19:20

Profiting Podcast. If you listen, learned

1:19:22

and profited from the wonderfully contrarian

1:19:24

wisdom of Mike Rowe, please share

1:19:26

this episode with somebody who might

1:19:28

enjoy it. And if you did

1:19:30

enjoy this show, as you guys

1:19:32

probably know, my favorite thing in

1:19:34

the world are Apple podcast and

1:19:36

Spotify reviews. Nothing helps us reach

1:19:38

more people than a good review

1:19:40

from you. I love to read

1:19:42

them. They motivate me. They motivate

1:19:44

the team. It's important for social

1:19:46

proof. Please. We don't charge for

1:19:48

this show. least you could do

1:19:50

is drop us a review. And

1:19:52

if you like to watch this

1:19:54

podcast as video, you can find

1:19:56

us on YouTube. We're getting a

1:19:58

lot more YouTube. engagement lately I'd

1:20:00

love for you to drop a

1:20:02

comment on YouTube just look up

1:20:04

young and profiting you'll find all

1:20:06

the videos on there you can

1:20:08

also find me on Instagram at

1:20:10

yap with hala or LinkedIn by

1:20:12

searching my name it's hala taha

1:20:14

and before we wrap this week

1:20:16

I want to do something a

1:20:18

little different I want to shout

1:20:20

out a listener actually I got

1:20:22

this really heartfelt Instagram DM again

1:20:24

you can DM me at yap

1:20:26

with hala I read those messages

1:20:28

I talked to my listeners all

1:20:30

the time actually And this listener

1:20:32

said, my loved one listens to

1:20:34

your podcast while currently incarcerated. He's

1:20:36

been incarcerated for 18 years. He

1:20:38

spoke so highly of you, I

1:20:40

just had to follow. He wrote

1:20:43

an amazing self-published book, and now

1:20:45

he's starting a podcast. And so

1:20:47

his name is Kevin Townsend. He's

1:20:49

a Brooklyn native. He's actually been

1:20:51

in prison for 18 years. And

1:20:53

while he was in prison, he

1:20:55

transformed his life through education and

1:20:57

introspection. completed an electrical vocational program,

1:20:59

a legal research course, and now

1:21:01

has his associate degree all behind

1:21:03

prison walls. He wrote an amazing

1:21:05

self-published book and now he's starting

1:21:07

his own podcast. Shout out to

1:21:09

Kevin, thank you for tuning into

1:21:11

the show. I'm happy that I

1:21:13

could have been any sort of

1:21:15

inspiration or light on your journey.

1:21:17

I'm happy that you're following your

1:21:19

dreams no matter what your situation

1:21:21

is. You are a true example

1:21:23

of resilience. and I hope that

1:21:25

you make it and make all

1:21:27

your dreams come true. Thank you

1:21:29

so much for listening to the

1:21:31

show. And I also want to

1:21:33

shout out all you guys tuning

1:21:35

in too. I love you guys

1:21:37

so much. Thank you for tuning

1:21:39

into the show. This is your

1:21:41

host, Hala Taha, aka the podcast

1:21:43

Princess, signing up.