0:00

If anything we should

0:02

make more things smell

0:04

like vaginas, and with

0:07

that I will see

0:10

myself out. Welcome to

0:12

your wrong about. I'm

0:15

Sarah Marshall and today

0:18

we have a special

0:20

spring cleaning episode with

0:23

our home economics correspondent

0:26

Sarah Archer. About this time

0:28

last year Sarah came on to

0:30

talk about the Trad wife and

0:32

now we're going on a thought

0:34

cruise through the history of cleanliness

0:36

and the rise of clean talk.

0:39

And we were going to be

0:41

asking the question, how clean is

0:43

clean enough? And how clean is

0:45

too clean? I loved this conversation

0:48

because it felt like part

0:50

of a bigger conversation than

0:52

I'm always having with Sarah

0:54

Archer about our relationships with

0:56

our houses and cleaning and

0:59

cooking and gender and the

1:01

politics of everyday life and

1:03

it just remains completely fascinating

1:05

to me. So I hope

1:07

you have a good time

1:09

listening and we also if

1:11

you are tickled by this episode

1:13

have a fun bonus that Sarah

1:15

Archer was on recently about Peggy

1:18

Bracken and the I Hate to

1:20

Cook book, one of my

1:22

personal favorites. Our most recent bonus

1:24

episode, by the way, is our

1:26

marked bonus on Marilyn Monroe's dress

1:29

and the time Kim Kardashian wore

1:31

it. That's a wonderful conversation that

1:33

I got to have with Caroline

1:35

O'Donahue and Eve Lindley. You can

1:38

find bonus episodes on Apple Plus

1:40

subscriptions and Patreon, and you can

1:42

find our newest episode right here,

1:44

right now. Here you go. Thank

1:47

you for being here. Welcome

1:56

to your rung about the podcast

1:58

where we ask you. Isn't your

2:01

house clean enough already? It probably

2:03

is. And what's the historical precedent

2:05

for all of this cleaning? And

2:07

when can we stop? And with

2:10

me today is our home and

2:12

garden correspondent, Sarah Archer. Hello, Sarah

2:14

Marshall. Hello, how are you doing?

2:16

I am doing okay. How are

2:18

you doing in these strange times? Oh,

2:21

you know. Just, just toddling into spring.

2:23

I do know. Right, and that's part

2:25

of our topic. That is part of

2:27

our topic, health, human services, things of

2:29

this nature, yes. Things that we do

2:32

to distract ourselves when things are weird.

2:34

So we're talking today about the project

2:36

of cleaning the house, which I think

2:38

is one of the most fascinating topics

2:41

in culture. My opening question, building off

2:43

of our work about this time last

2:45

year, talking about the Tradwife, and I

2:47

continue to have a lot of questions

2:50

about home economics, and the one I

2:52

bring to you today is... Do you

2:54

remember the rise of clean talk during

2:56

the pandemic? I do. I have to

2:58

say I'm not on TikTok though, so

3:01

I was kind of getting it second

3:03

and third hand. But it was still

3:05

seeping out like light through a

3:07

badly framed door. Like like like

3:09

somebody who's used too much cleansing

3:12

fluid. Well and so tell me like

3:14

what is clean talk to you? So

3:16

my understanding of clean talk is that

3:18

it was like a the genre next

3:20

door to the phenomenon of people sort

3:22

of making fruit loops from scratch like

3:25

that kind of that there's a little

3:27

bit of a sense of there's a

3:29

deliberate absurdity to it and that there's

3:31

a kind of you know opposing a question

3:33

how best to clean this thing and then

3:35

the solution is always like well you

3:37

dump like an entire canister of barkeeper's

3:40

friend on it and then you dump

3:42

an entire thing of palm olive just soap

3:44

on it and then you do some weird

3:46

theatrical scrubbing and it's all

3:48

and then it was kind of like clean

3:51

puppet theater or clean interpretive

3:53

dance or something. Potemkin countertops.

3:55

Exactly like it was kind

3:58

of it was not in the genre. of,

4:00

say, your Martha Stewart's or your other

4:02

home gurus of kind of telling you

4:04

exactly the right amount of cleanser to

4:06

use and the exact right brush and

4:09

the exact right tool, not to use

4:11

too much. And, like, the smallest amount

4:13

that you can reasonably get away with

4:15

as well, which is a very nice

4:18

piece of information to have. Which is

4:20

smart and thrifty, exactly. So that this

4:22

is more, it's almost like the sort

4:24

of cleaning product. like bizarro world's version

4:27

of those those weird cooking videos

4:29

where people were putting all the

4:31

ingredients in a single casserole or

4:33

something and it was just some grotesque

4:36

and there is there's probably a name

4:38

for that right and I feel like that

4:40

has gone down or else I'm just personally

4:42

seeing less of it but we had a

4:44

lot of like wasting food theatrics for a

4:46

while yeah which I just hate I hate

4:48

wasting it's just so like just it's so

4:50

sad why do you want to waste food

4:52

you know the like countertop nachos or you

4:55

know that lady who made like a

4:57

million of these and one of them

4:59

was like countertop spaghetti. And it's also

5:01

a lot of transparent rage bait to

5:04

drive engagement. I think that's the main

5:06

impetus. And this kind of thing was

5:08

often sort of like people in their

5:10

30s sort of acting like kids TV

5:13

hosts in a very varied slightly unsettling

5:15

way and in this case it was

5:17

like a grown up woman pretending to

5:20

be mixing cocktails inside of her toilet

5:22

bowl. which brings us over nicely

5:24

to the world of clean talk

5:26

where you first fill your toilet

5:28

with ice and then you put

5:31

all your product on it so

5:33

that like theoretically the ice melts

5:35

and it can coat the inside

5:37

of the bowl but isn't that

5:39

what foam was invented for? That's

5:41

the story. I think it's just

5:43

because it's a really striking visual

5:46

to fill a toilet with ice. Like you

5:48

ever really need to fill your toilet with

5:50

ice? I'm not an expert, but no, you

5:52

don't ever. I don't think so, you don't.

5:54

No. I am a grown-up woman who

5:56

has sort of learned in adulthood truly

5:59

how to clean... And I learned a

6:01

lot of it from social media where,

6:03

you know, I am watching for enjoyment,

6:05

but where I learn in an incidental

6:07

kind of way how to do the

6:09

occasional thing while I'm searching for dopamine,

6:11

like a truffle pig in the forest.

6:13

So you're sniffing it out, just kind

6:15

of snorkeling around. And occasionally, accidentally, you'll

6:17

learn something. And I think we're living

6:19

in a time of greater than usual

6:21

obsession with like cleaning and organizing and

6:23

decorating in our houses and what they

6:25

say about us and who we are

6:27

because of them and what we consume

6:29

and how we consume it. And social

6:31

media is playing a big role in

6:33

all of this. One of the things

6:35

that I have have come to believe

6:37

basically which is unfortunate because I didn't

6:39

want it to be true is that

6:41

the secret to cleaning and housework broadly

6:43

is that you have to just constantly

6:45

be doing a little bit of it

6:47

and if you're constantly doing a little

6:50

bit of it then it doesn't pile

6:52

up that much and if each person

6:54

living in a household is constantly doing

6:56

a little bit of it then theoretically

6:58

It stays a little bit for everyone

7:00

rather than turning to a lot a

7:02

bit for one person who is the

7:04

mom who is Santa. Exactly. And which

7:06

is also a good business model if

7:08

you're the kind of person who sells

7:10

cleaning products. Yes. To have everybody at

7:12

it. constantly at like a low to

7:14

medium simmer. And I guess what I'm

7:16

trying to figure out and what I

7:18

believe is maybe like the secret to

7:20

some kind of happiness is like, how

7:22

much little bit do you always have

7:24

to be doing? Because I think in

7:26

theory it's like not that much, right?

7:28

You have to wash dishes and those

7:30

do pile up if you do anything

7:32

ambitious, like you have to clean surfaces,

7:34

you have to sweep. But we're also

7:36

I think in this sort of clean

7:38

talk social media world being shown. a

7:40

model of existing where, you know, also

7:42

the people doing the most outrageous things

7:44

rise to the top because they drive

7:47

engagement. And I think a lot of

7:49

people are worried possibly, well, kind of

7:51

not believing it, but also maybe kind

7:53

of believing it that everyone is deep.

7:55

cleaning every day. Yes. And so the

7:57

question that I brought to you are

7:59

one of them, because I have mixed

8:01

feelings about this whole phenomenon, right? Because

8:03

like, I like to watch it. I

8:05

am one of the millions of people

8:07

who clearly enjoys watching it. And I

8:09

think there's a lot of great people

8:11

on it. There's Vanessa Amaro who taught

8:13

me how to roll a towel. That's

8:15

improved my life dramatically and it hasn't

8:17

cost anything. Okay. Yeah, you roll it

8:19

like it's like the way they do

8:21

in spas, like the way they do

8:23

in spas. And then it's like a

8:25

little spa day in your bathroom. Exactly.

8:27

And that's the light side of Clean

8:29

Talk of the force, right? Because it's

8:31

like it doesn't cost anything, it's a

8:33

skill. And that's in, you know, as

8:35

we always come back to, who will

8:37

win the Martha Crown in the game

8:39

of Thrones, the one who teaches skills?

8:41

And Martha in fact is the person

8:44

who taught, not me personally, but taught

8:46

the community of which I am a

8:48

member, how to fold a fitted sheet.

8:50

And that is one of the things

8:52

that I'm actually extraordinarily good at. I

8:54

gotta get on that. I do not

8:56

know how to fold a fitted sheet

8:58

yet. And I guess like looking at

9:00

Clean Talk, right, because there's like, you

9:02

know, it's a full-sided die, and a

9:04

big side of the die is a

9:06

terrible metaphor, but one of the size

9:08

of the size of the die is

9:10

very corporation-of the die is very corporation-driven,

9:12

very corporation-driven driven, very corporation-driven, part of

9:14

my feeling is like this is clearly

9:16

driven to some extent by sort of

9:18

the corporateization of everything and how you

9:20

know if you are an influencer and

9:22

you sell people Amazon gadgets and products

9:24

then you are obviously incentivized to teach

9:26

them how to use the products faster

9:28

so they can buy more of them

9:30

and they can buy more different ones

9:32

and we can have this sort of

9:34

cleaning arms race where no one's house

9:36

is giant or clean enough but also

9:38

you look at it and you're like

9:41

corporations can They're very insidious and they

9:43

can certainly drive culture to an extent,

9:45

but if something isn't going to take

9:47

off, it isn't going to take off.

9:49

And like, it's interesting that so many

9:51

people, myself included, just want to watch

9:53

people clean. Isn't it fascinating? It's a

9:55

little bit too much cleaning, and I

9:57

have to think that maybe it's connected

9:59

to the fact that we might be

10:01

a little freaked out. How about that?

10:03

Maybe we'd have to go back in

10:05

time. We probably would. I have taken

10:07

to enjoying power washing videos. Do you

10:09

watch power washing videos on TikTok? Those

10:11

are very satisfying. Those are great. Yeah.

10:13

Like here are a couple of matrices

10:15

things that are happening on, right?

10:17

Where there's like a big contention

10:20

of people who are like, oh

10:22

my God, there are too many

10:24

microplastics. I've got a sandwich bag

10:26

full of microplastics in my brain

10:28

probably. I have to avoid

10:30

all plastics and also sleep with

10:32

my retainer in somehow. The darned

10:34

and visaline. I don't have a

10:37

retainer. I have teeth like David

10:39

Mitchell, but everyone else does. And

10:41

then there's like in a way that feels

10:43

sort of like, again, like some

10:46

sort of weird balance to it,

10:48

people who are evidently like microplastics

10:50

maxing. you know, because again, if you're

10:52

going to like clean and organize to

10:54

a certain extent, then like everything is

10:56

going in an acrylic container, you have

10:59

to be able to see your milk, you have

11:01

to put it in an acrylic thing and write

11:03

milk on it or not, just trust yourself

11:05

to remember it's milk. I'm not against for

11:07

escaping, but you've got to stay on top

11:09

of expiration dates or else you're

11:11

going to be confused. you know there's

11:13

that and then there's also

11:15

this obsession with cleanliness and

11:17

cleaning and disinfecting everything and

11:19

putting bleach on everything and

11:21

exposing yourself to a lot

11:23

of caustic chemicals that probably it would

11:26

be nice to like limit your exposure

11:28

to because you know paired with you

11:30

know us also living in a time

11:32

you know of kind of realizing how many

11:34

people don't believe in basic germ theory like

11:37

it was way more than I thought it

11:39

would be but something I also wonder about

11:41

is sort of whether around this time of

11:43

the dawning of germ theory of sort of

11:45

this being something we were just beginning to

11:47

figure out or to understand the

11:49

scientific basis behind and also seeing

11:52

people accepting or rejecting, whether

11:54

that is similar to what we're going through

11:56

today where we know that there are dangerous

11:58

things coming into the house and like you know,

12:00

the kitchen where we prepare food in

12:02

the bed where we sleep in all

12:04

these other places and the toilet where

12:07

we put ice. Famously. But we

12:09

don't know exactly how they're getting

12:11

in or where they're coming

12:13

from and that makes us feel

12:15

like we have to just go

12:17

over the top with absolutely everything

12:19

maybe. Right. Which kind of gets

12:22

to the natural, what is it,

12:24

the naturalist fallacy? I think that

12:26

this idea that anything that's chemical

12:29

in air quotes is dangerous and bad

12:31

and anything that's natural in air

12:33

quotes is good for you, but

12:35

kind of not understanding that it's

12:37

sort of you're applying kind of

12:39

a human binary to the natural

12:41

world that doesn't make any sense

12:43

and that the way in which

12:45

our bodies interact with chemicals of

12:47

all kinds is impossible to police,

12:49

it's impossible to trace every interaction.

12:52

And it's impossible to say, for

12:54

instance, when you read an article about

12:56

the fact that there's, let's say, certain

12:58

kind of cancers are on the rise

13:00

among younger people. And then you're, you

13:03

know, kind of consuming, you know, tick-talk

13:05

content about people using 10 times the

13:07

amount of cleanser that they're supposed to

13:09

for a given, you know, a toilet

13:11

ice bath and think like, like, Who

13:13

knows why these things are happening? Maybe

13:15

it's the oil industry, maybe

13:18

it's microplastics, maybe it's any of

13:20

the above. Right, and the idea of

13:22

sort of fixating on what we

13:24

feel like we can control when

13:26

things are out of control feels like

13:28

part of this too. Yeah, and that's

13:30

that's why the fixation on the

13:33

home. Yeah, well, why don't we

13:35

unwind by cracking open an 1884

13:37

vintage of housekeeping manual? Well,

13:39

that sounds like a little good clean

13:41

fun. It does. So this is

13:44

a housekeeping manual written

13:46

aimed as I think

13:48

historically most housekeeping manuals

13:50

are at like the

13:52

young housewife starting off

13:54

young ladies and kind

13:56

of you know implicitly

13:58

aimed at the middle

14:00

to upper middle class white woman,

14:02

basically, or the upwardly mobile

14:04

working class white woman. But

14:07

there's a lot of fascinating

14:09

class language in this, and

14:11

also very racist against the

14:13

Irish. So let's get into that.

14:15

Not surprising. So this is chapter

14:18

eight to clean and keep clean. And

14:20

what is this book? What is the

14:22

title of the book? Oh, this is

14:24

called Anna Maria's Housekeeping. And it's the

14:26

character of Anna Maria telling you how

14:29

to keep your house clean. It was

14:31

written by some other lady. Wow! I

14:33

don't think I've ever seen this before.

14:36

That's amazing. This is by an author

14:38

named Susan Dunning Power, who's writing in

14:40

character as Anna Maria. Wow. Okay. Chapter

14:43

8. To Clean and Keep Clean. The

14:45

neighbors who remember her speak of

14:47

my grandmother as a pattern housekeeper

14:49

of the old style. With 11

14:51

children, a large circle of acquaintances

14:54

to entertain anifestidious husband, she managed

14:56

to do and direct everything for

14:58

house and family in the nicest

15:00

manner without losing her serenity. Better

15:03

not lose that, or being other than

15:05

delicately meat in her dress. In the

15:07

Yankee phrase, dirt wouldn't stick to

15:09

her. Therefore, I have always had

15:11

great respect for one of her

15:13

favorite maxims handed down that one

15:15

keep clean was worth a great

15:17

many-mate cleans. Again, I think that's true,

15:19

and it's also the most annoying

15:22

advice that anyone could possibly give

15:24

you. You know what it reminds me of?

15:26

It's very like how to write your

15:28

dissertation in 10 minutes a day. Like

15:30

it's that you should, it's like, don't

15:32

do it all the night before. Do

15:34

it, you know, in little pieces every

15:36

single day, like a discipline, which is

15:38

so irritating. And you're like, you know,

15:40

if I hadn't waited until the night

15:42

before, I wouldn't be reading this book, would

15:45

I? Here we go. Still, one must

15:47

make clean before she can keep clean

15:49

and Irish Katie has not left the

15:51

kitchen in the glorious meatness we were

15:54

talking about last time. I don't envy

15:56

you the house cleaning, but if

15:58

bringing purity order and safety into

16:00

the dark corners of the world is

16:03

a heavenly mission, yours is one. And

16:05

where should such purity and safety begin

16:07

if not in one's own home? You

16:10

have read of Miss Octavia Hill, the

16:12

English lady who rented tenement houses in

16:14

the worst part of London and had

16:16

them cleaned, taking part, I believe, in

16:19

the scrubbing and whitewashing with her own

16:21

hands, to give the wretched poor a

16:23

glimpse of that funniness which is next

16:26

to godliness. It was one of the

16:28

finest missions of the sanctuary, and I

16:30

have thought some homes where education and

16:33

taste had place needed a similar visitation.

16:35

She's saying rich people have gross houses,

16:37

too. One would think the pictures would

16:40

leave the walls, the books come down

16:42

from the shelves, the tidies and knickknacks

16:44

get up and shake off the dust,

16:47

and homes kept with the negligent half-order,

16:49

which is all people seem to attempt

16:51

now at their time being too much

16:53

taken up with Kensington work, tennis and

16:56

clubs, and socials, to see that their

16:58

houses are pleasantly or wholesomely kept. They

17:00

let the poisonous dust gather under the

17:03

beds and in corners, allow contagion to

17:05

breed in vile, damp places left by

17:07

slops, and food becomes tainted in their

17:10

close closets. Their very garments gather musty

17:12

odors while they are taken up with

17:14

finer things as they suppose. As if

17:17

one read poetry with a face unwashed.

17:19

There is more sincere refinement in the

17:21

clean bare floors, spotless pantries, and sweet

17:24

airy bedrooms of plain homes where pictures

17:26

and books are luxuries that in fine

17:28

houses where everything is attended to save

17:30

the cardinal virtues of health and neatness.

17:33

Wow, holy mackerel. So this is fascinating

17:35

because it's actually, when was it published?

17:37

Did you say? 1884. 1884. Okay, would

17:40

you like to guess just for fun

17:42

the year that... Physician and scientist Robert

17:44

Koch discovered the tuberculal bacillus. Oh, 1884,

17:47

2? Ah, nice. Oh my god, Anna

17:49

Maria is on top of it. Totally

17:51

on top of it. And this is

17:54

kind of like, gets into this super

17:56

interesting connection to European modernism because a

17:58

lot of it grew out of the

18:01

reaction to tuberculosis, that there was this

18:03

kind of big push to all of

18:05

what you were talking about, sort of,

18:08

you know, sunlight, space, big windows, you

18:10

know, kind of. no dark corners. There

18:12

were a lot of sanatoriums built and

18:14

architects like LaCorbusier and Peter Barron's and

18:17

Bruno Todd, one of the big really

18:19

influential early modernists, Alver Alto, designed sanatoriums

18:21

in Europe. the chicness of flat surfaces.

18:24

This was another big thing. Like instead

18:26

of like in the Victorian era, you

18:28

wanted to show your abundance and kind

18:31

of cultivation by having lots of stuff

18:33

and upholstery and fringe and lots of

18:35

carved wood. It was like a real

18:38

knick-knack era. Yeah. And like hair art

18:40

made by young lesbians. Totally you look

18:42

into it. I certainly will. A lot

18:45

of time and energy and persons. to

18:47

keep all that stuff clean, to dust

18:49

every little nook and cranny. So one

18:51

stylish solution to that is to have

18:54

a lot of loud surfaces and to

18:56

have lots of planes, geometric. So one

18:58

of the reasons why... I feel like

19:01

I effed up in a classic Victorian

19:03

way actually because I'm looking around my

19:05

house and it's like a lot of

19:08

velvets and sort of like high nap.

19:10

You had a lot of stuff. Yeah,

19:12

a lot of, a lot of knickknacks.

19:15

Well, you're a very 19th century and

19:17

that's what happens. That's, you know. Yes,

19:19

but everything is covered in cat hair.

19:22

That's the thing. I mean, tell me

19:24

about it. If I had like a

19:26

gross beige house, I could wipe everything

19:28

clean, but I just love surfaces that

19:31

attract cat hair. So what am I

19:33

to do? People, and I think people

19:35

still sort of find it chilly. You

19:38

know, it's not cozy. It's not homey.

19:40

It's not, you know, this sort of

19:42

sanatorium chic. It's a little museum. It's

19:45

a little museum. It's clinical. And it

19:47

was meant to be. because this was

19:49

really kind of like in an era

19:52

when people were, you know, between that

19:54

and the flu pandemic, I mean, it

19:56

was a very, it was a terrifying

19:59

like bacterial era, right, if you were,

20:01

you know, the 1880s to around World

20:03

War I. And that was really what

20:06

modernism grew out of, at least in

20:08

a technical sense. So of course, the

20:10

fact that it was also utopianopian. you

20:12

know, designed to be sort of accessible

20:15

to the common person. That's what brutalism

20:17

is all about, you know, everybody to

20:19

get it forward concrete. It was also

20:22

really, you know, kind of people were

20:24

spooked by germs. And so, one of

20:26

the things that I find really interesting

20:29

about like magga aesthetics, which is not

20:31

an interesting topic, I hate the fact

20:33

that I have to be interested, but

20:36

it's like... It's forced itself to become

20:38

interesting, I think, over time, yeah. It

20:40

has forced itself on us. It's not

20:43

minimalist. It's really maximalist. There's a lot

20:45

going on. It's kind of like chocolate

20:47

block and there's something kind of Victorian

20:49

about it. Or perhaps even Rococo. Let's

20:52

go crazy. Let's say it might even

20:54

be Rococo. I mean you look at

20:56

Maralago. It's certainly an attempt at Rococo.

20:59

Absolutely. It's real cocoa co- revival and

21:01

it's also kind of Spanish. But then

21:03

there's the parts where they like ran

21:06

out of money and they yeah, there's

21:08

gaps. And it's kind of that like

21:10

South Florida like sort of like Fantasia

21:13

of like Spanish architecture. Right. That was

21:15

happened like the red tile and all

21:17

that stuff. But I mean, you look

21:20

at Marlago and it's got to be

21:22

a germ factor, right? Because it's like

21:24

all of these upholstered surfaces, you know.

21:26

Yes. And so all of which is

21:29

to say is a long-winded way of

21:31

saying that aesthetics and cleanliness have a

21:33

long history together. They go, they have

21:36

gone, they have been in tension and

21:38

gone together for many, many, many years.

21:40

It also strikes me that the early

21:43

days of our most recent pandemic were

21:45

interesting because there was a period when

21:47

we all believed and I think that

21:50

the data was kind of supporting this,

21:52

but we also were just I think

21:54

maybe trying to control what we could,

21:57

that it was spreading. through surfaces, right?

21:59

And we all were like cleaning the

22:01

mail and stuff. Yes, cleaning mail and

22:04

cleaning. I remember doing this. I remember

22:06

going to get a bunch of canned

22:08

goods and like life-salling with like wipes,

22:10

like all the cans. Very earnestly, I

22:13

thought this was a great idea. Yeah.

22:15

And the thing is, like, it's nice

22:17

to kind of look back and laugh

22:20

about it now, but like, that is

22:22

what you do when you don't know

22:24

as much as you would really like

22:27

to, you, you know, you know. And

22:29

think about what we're seeing now with

22:31

a sort of making America healthy again.

22:34

Movement, which is not something that I

22:36

think is good, but I think given

22:38

the vagaries of what you were mentioning

22:41

before, microclastics, etc., all of these kind

22:43

of mysterious things that are, you know,

22:45

seeping into our world, unbidden. We don't

22:47

know what the effects are. There's been

22:50

a lot of seeping the last hundred

22:52

years or so, you know. Yeah. We're

22:54

supposed to a lot of stuff, you

22:57

know. And also kind of roughly this

22:59

time period, right, the late 70s, we

23:01

had all the news around Love Canal,

23:04

where basically like toxic waste was seeping

23:06

into the groundwater underneath an elementary school

23:08

and a residential neighborhood and only area

23:11

moms dared to fight back and you

23:13

know, that's the kind of the birth

23:15

of the Superfund site is around that

23:18

time. So it's yeah, in the 80s

23:20

we had kind of done 70s and

23:22

80s, we were seeing the effects of

23:24

having done all the damage that we

23:27

did with these like marvelous inventions that

23:29

we came up with, you know, during

23:31

and after World War II. Dow Chemical,

23:34

right, exactly. Yeah, and I mean, and

23:36

that's, and that to me is part

23:38

of the picture too, right, because we

23:40

have like one of the clean talk

23:42

people who I, who I delight in

23:44

following, who was very over the top,

23:47

like has these, you know, huge racks

23:49

of like cleaning supplies, just like in

23:51

her bedroom. Wow. Just, you know, I

23:53

think just because she likes them or

23:55

because it's, you know, it's free advertising

23:57

for your TikTok shop if you do

23:59

that, if you also sell cleaning supplies,

24:02

which a lot of people... you know

24:04

I've seen people comment like I don't

24:06

know if you should be sleeping with

24:08

all those cleaning supplies in your room

24:10

and like I think it's probably fine

24:12

if they're in their containers but like

24:14

but also there's you know to be

24:17

like inhaling that stuff. Yeah, but there's

24:19

a level of daily cleaning, especially in

24:21

an enclosed space where if we're following

24:23

the guidelines of sort of what marketing

24:25

wants us to believe versus what the

24:27

sort of minimum that we need to

24:29

actually get something done, then it feels

24:32

like we're at risk of inevitably like

24:34

some amount of overkill. It does. It

24:36

does. I think and sort of lack

24:38

of ventilation and, you know, kind of

24:40

using more product than necessary and kind

24:42

of, you know, it's also, your home

24:44

doesn't need to be, let Starryl as

24:47

like an operating room, right? It doesn't,

24:49

you know what I mean? Hopefully, I

24:51

mean, until we have to start doing

24:53

surgery in our houses. Well, but only

24:55

part of the house, only like, you

24:57

know, a big bathroom or something. So

24:59

it's like, if you're going to kind

25:02

of like do a counterwipe down, it

25:04

doesn't have, you don't have to sort

25:06

of take out the big guns every

25:08

time you need to wipe off your

25:10

countertop. It's like, you don't want to

25:12

be sort of be sort of, you

25:14

know I've definitely had experiences when I

25:17

was cleaning and kind of didn't open

25:19

a window and maybe using something that

25:21

was kind of on the stronger side

25:23

and and kind of feeling it that

25:25

you know that that feeling you sort

25:27

of like you you breathe in and

25:29

it's like if you're cleaning with bleach

25:32

or something it doesn't feel like I'm

25:34

not at all comfortable with using bleach

25:36

like I should use more of it

25:38

because like I don't really cook meat

25:40

very much and part of the reason

25:42

is because I don't feel secure that

25:45

I know how to properly disinfect things,

25:47

and I don't have a whole other

25:49

cutting board for it, and I don't

25:51

feel like buying another cutting board, and

25:53

I've been in a detente, you know.

25:55

But right, it feels like we have

25:57

pretty much the information we need, I

26:00

think, to know how to keep our

26:02

houses from getting us sick at this

26:04

point. Which we didn't always. Right. And

26:06

what we know basically is like, you

26:08

know, clean your bathroom, wash your hands,

26:10

like oral fecal is a vector for

26:12

infection. one of the big ones, and

26:15

not that people didn't have a sense

26:17

of that before we had germ theory.

26:19

They just didn't know exactly why. Properly

26:21

disinfect your kitchen and stuff that you

26:23

handle and prepare raw meat on or

26:25

with, or just, you know, avoiding mold,

26:27

keeping things like dry and, you know,

26:30

like, it's not. hugely overwhelming I think

26:32

it's basically about like places where you

26:34

eat and go to the bathroom are

26:36

kind of the main focus you know

26:38

pretty much yeah and but I feel

26:40

like when we look at sort of

26:42

the the culture of clean talk like

26:45

or the cleaning culture that you can

26:47

sort of see some people exhibiting or

26:49

at least enjoying a viewership of it's

26:51

like It feels like there's a contradiction,

26:53

but I think there isn't as much

26:55

of a contradiction as I think there

26:57

is when I get closer to it,

27:00

because part of me wants to be

27:02

like, well, some people don't believe in

27:04

germs, and some people believe in germs

27:06

so much that they're sanitizing everything all

27:08

day long. So that's different, but really,

27:10

I think there's a lot more kind

27:12

of superstition at play in overcleaning, right,

27:15

because, you know, past a certain point.

27:17

It can't really get any cleaner. It

27:19

doesn't need to be deep cleaned again.

27:21

You're just doing it because you feel

27:23

like it or because you're under contract.

27:25

Oh, you're compelled, yes. And if you're

27:28

compelled and it's something that you're aware

27:30

is a compulsion but that you're managing

27:32

and that's not negatively affecting your life,

27:34

then I don't know. That's probably fine.

27:36

I mean, if you're using relatively mild

27:38

products, then that's probably fine. That's maybe

27:40

the main thing. Yeah, let's, if we're

27:43

going to pour too much of something

27:45

all over everywhere, then let's, um, use

27:47

some Dr. Brawners. Exactly. Mrs. Myers. I

27:49

have never seen someone theatrically pour a

27:51

whole thing of Dr. Brawners on something,

27:53

and I would love to see that

27:55

happen, and then a dramatic reading of

27:58

the label. It's time. It's high time.

28:00

that it's like there's a certain minimum

28:02

amount of just like hygienic cleanliness that

28:04

it's not that hard to reach. I

28:06

mean cleaning is always hard but that

28:08

you don't have to spend most of

28:10

the day everyday cleaning in order to

28:13

do that is like that that even

28:15

Irish Katie can manage I'm so sorry.

28:17

And then on top of that it

28:19

feels like we're actually kind of getting

28:21

back into what to my understanding was

28:23

what people basically believed at least in

28:25

the United States and sort of English-speaking

28:28

cultures before we sort of accepted term

28:30

theory for a while which is the

28:32

measma theory of disease which is that

28:34

like bad smells or it's vibes it's

28:36

a vibe it's a feeling yeah can

28:38

you talk about that Right, so my

28:40

understanding, although this, the early modern period

28:43

is not my speciality, but let's say,

28:45

just in general, my understanding is that

28:47

there was an early sense, like the

28:49

word quarantine comes from the Italian word

28:51

for 40, meaning 40 days, like you

28:53

separated a patient for 40 days, and

28:55

they learned that I think from physicians

28:58

from the Islamic world. Like they kind

29:00

of like germ theory in its very

29:02

earliest that nobody knew what a germ

29:04

was, but there was a, and observation.

29:06

They stole their ideas and then took

29:08

credit. Yeah, exactly. And so this kind

29:10

of seeped into, since things were seeping,

29:13

Renaissance Italy, and there was kind of

29:15

like general understanding that not what we

29:17

would consider scientific, that you would sort

29:19

of need to isolate a patient who

29:21

had something that's appeared to be communicable,

29:23

what the vector of contagion was that,

29:26

you know, maybe didn't know, and this

29:28

idea that it was like a fog

29:30

or a smell or a kind of

29:32

bad... odor that would descend on an

29:34

area, you know, and then everyone would

29:36

get the sweating sickness or something. And

29:38

weirdly it happens a lot in poorer

29:41

neighborhoods. Oddly enough. And I'm thinking back

29:43

to those like the sort of those

29:45

wild plague masks with like the beaks

29:47

that are kind of like during the

29:49

good the great plague, but there was

29:51

this belief that you could sort of

29:53

protect yourself from the measma by wearing

29:56

this get-up. And you would put something

29:58

nice smelling in it, right? Yes. Like

30:00

something, like a posy, a sort of

30:02

floral or something sweet, that would kind

30:04

of disinfect. And so they were in

30:06

a strange way, they were kind of,

30:08

it was a stab at something real.

30:11

Like they got that there was something

30:13

in the air, they just didn't know

30:15

what it was. And I think that

30:17

what this speaks speaks to you is

30:19

this sort of generalized awareness and understandable

30:21

fear of, you know, chemicals in the

30:23

groundwater, super fun sites, microplastics, etc. that

30:26

we cannot control. There is just absolutely

30:28

no way. And frankly, if we had

30:30

all the resources and money and time

30:32

and manpower in the world, probably still

30:34

couldn't control it. Right. Because it's already

30:36

out there, to be honest. Like there

30:38

have been a lot of barrels of

30:41

nuclear waste hidden in a lot of...

30:43

parks to quote the Simpsons. In a

30:45

strange way I can see where put

30:47

in your faith in something that sort

30:49

of can't really be disproven because it's

30:51

so innocuous like all right you know

30:53

rather than kind of like the reality

30:56

which is probably there is there there

30:58

probably isn't a way to detoxify all

31:00

the stuff that's floating around and you

31:02

know that is may or may not

31:04

be harmful and that it's you know

31:06

it's beyond your control so kind of

31:09

you sort of putting your faith in

31:11

something that's a little bit superstitious I

31:13

can see where you can't measure the

31:15

results it's there is there are no

31:17

results so so why not you know,

31:19

kind of say, oh, we're going to

31:21

kind of like ritual do this thing

31:24

and it's, you know, it helps. And

31:26

then I think the answer to that

31:28

is and to the like, how clean

31:30

does your house need to be question

31:32

is like as clean as you need

31:34

it to be, right? Because it's for

31:36

you. You're the one who lives there.

31:39

It's yours. And you, you know, you

31:41

deserve to be able to feel comfortable

31:43

with people coming over. But like, there's

31:45

in Peg brackets, I hate to house

31:47

keep books. I hate to house keep

31:49

books. One of the things she talks

31:51

about in that book is that no

31:54

one has ever said, oh, I love

31:56

so and so. She has such a

31:58

perfectly kept house. I just love that

32:00

about her. Exactly. And if your house

32:02

is a little bit ratty it'll make

32:04

the neighbors feel better and it'll make

32:06

your friends feel better. And as long

32:09

as it's not, you know, unhygienic, then

32:11

I think that's basically true, you know.

32:13

100% I think that, yeah, I have

32:15

never in my entire life gone over

32:17

to someone's house and thought, you know,

32:19

like, Well, have you seen the top

32:21

of the refrigerator? Because I just went

32:24

in there. I mean, nobody cares. And

32:26

it's even, I'm pretty fastidious about stuff

32:28

like this, and I don't care. It's

32:30

just, I think that there are things

32:32

like, when people are coming over, I'll

32:34

do, I have kind of like a

32:36

10 to 15 minute. supermarket sweep that

32:39

I'll do to just kind of hit

32:41

like a few surfaces and areas and

32:43

kind of tidy up. But I think

32:45

honestly like if you want to make

32:47

somebody feel welcome like flowers or something

32:49

to eat it's like that's really you

32:52

want somebody to sort of feel like

32:54

you're happy to have them in your

32:56

house and that like if they're not

32:58

going to take a magnifying glass to

33:00

your like. baseboards or upholstery or something

33:02

to say like well there's cat hair.

33:04

Of course there's there's gonna be cat

33:07

hair like that's just there's kind of

33:09

there's kind of anxious response which I

33:11

have had to kind of unlearn over

33:13

the years to be like well there

33:15

can't be any dust there can't because

33:17

then what will people think you know

33:19

and that the fact is that most

33:22

people don't think anything about it because

33:24

everybody has to Irish which is true

33:26

which is accurate and they're gonna be

33:28

right. This also makes me think of

33:30

just speaking of, speaking of, speaking of

33:32

anti-Irish sentiment that famously typhoid Mary's full

33:34

name was Mary Mallin and it does

33:37

seem interesting that she you know she

33:39

became the poster child and this is

33:41

a phrase we still use today whether

33:43

we know the story or not for

33:45

the idea of knowingly spreading a disease

33:47

right or I don't know if you

33:49

have to do it knowingly I think

33:52

we use that term just you know

33:54

in a in a more general way

33:56

I think that's kind of fast and

33:58

loose yeah you know it certainly is

34:00

She's not, she certainly is not endured

34:02

as a sympathetic figure. And to be

34:04

honest, I don't think she really was,

34:07

because she apparently like threatened with

34:09

a piece of kitchenware, the first guy who came

34:11

to tell her that he thought she had typhoid.

34:13

Really? Oh, I didn't know that. Oh my gosh.

34:15

Wow, you know, you gotta, you gotta do what

34:17

you gotta do. She's a working woman. You

34:19

got to defend yourself. And, but she

34:22

had been. I think spreading typhoid for

34:24

like six or seven years in these

34:26

different households she works in. And she

34:29

was just asymptomatic herself. Like she was

34:31

asymptomatic and she also apparently believed for

34:33

her entire life at least according to

34:35

her that she never she never believed

34:38

that she had typhoid. And at a

34:40

certain point there was you know enough

34:42

evidence that like she really probably needed

34:45

to accept that she didn't.

34:47

But I mean there's yeah

34:49

there's some interesting complexity. to that. You

34:51

know this was a case of somebody who for

34:53

many years was working and remaining undetected and

34:55

just kind of leaving typhoid in her wake

34:57

and actually I think only when she got

34:59

to a more wealthy community where there hadn't

35:01

been typhoid in a while and whether where

35:03

there was more of a sense of we're

35:05

going to look really bad if there's typhoid

35:07

unchecked. Right. That people kind of brought out

35:09

the big guns and figured out what was

35:11

going on because she would always just kind

35:13

of move on to this job. she just

35:15

kind of go to the next house and

35:17

and wow you know spread a little

35:19

typhoid and make her famous peach ice

35:21

cream dessert which is ice cream with

35:24

frozen peaches with a little typhoid

35:26

on top which apart from that

35:28

last part actually sounds incredible yeah

35:30

sounds great yeah we should all

35:32

have that but like she was

35:34

not the only person spreading typhoid,

35:36

you know, but it was just

35:38

like, it was an interesting story,

35:40

it was an interesting case study,

35:42

and it was also coming in through

35:44

an Irish kitchen servant or through an

35:46

Irish cook specifically. And so that speaks

35:49

to this kind of like evergreen anxiety

35:51

about sort of immigrants as being unclean,

35:53

which goes back as far as, you

35:55

know, I mean, I probably have had

35:57

immigrants to be racist about probably.

36:00

Exactly, yeah. Let me read

36:02

you a little bit more of Anna

36:04

Maria's housekeeping again, because there's just, I

36:06

mean, part of this is actually somewhat

36:09

useful information, but also is

36:11

just, the language of it is really

36:13

just kind of fascinating. Her writing

36:15

style is incredible, yeah, like blown

36:17

away. Okay. House dust is minute particles

36:19

of soil from the streets, spread in

36:22

by the feet, or sifted through door

36:24

and window casings, fine ashes from the

36:26

fire, mixed with minute scales of skin

36:28

from our bodies, and fluff from clothing

36:31

and carpets. These particles, nearly invisible themselves,

36:33

collect in such amount that they will

36:35

soon show in an unswept room in

36:37

the locks of lint which gather under

36:40

tables, along walls, and undisturbed places. This

36:42

waste goes on day and night, grinding of

36:44

dust from roads, wear of clothes and

36:46

clothes in carpets. puts fine dust flying

36:49

from fires and atoms from human bodies,

36:51

it irritates the lungs to breathe, ever

36:53

so little damp begins a ferment in

36:55

it poisoning the air, and the only

36:58

safe way to dispose of it is

37:00

to sweep it up and burn it,

37:02

escalated. Don't throw sweepings about the yards

37:04

or vaults, but burn them instantly. Or

37:07

if that is not convenient, keep them

37:09

in a barrel to burn the first

37:11

chance. The grime on the paint left

37:13

by Cady's careless washing is the sediment

37:16

of dust in the water and dust

37:18

settled in the steam of cooking, which

37:20

if not often erred and washed, leaves

37:22

the dinghy look of frowzy kitchens. You

37:25

don't want a frowzy kitchen. Begin to

37:27

wash doors and baseboards, and you will

37:29

see the annoyance dust harbors. In the

37:31

moldings of doors and windows run

37:33

the dust lice, which nab books,

37:35

paint and wood, and are ready

37:37

to fall into food. Smeary paint

37:40

invites that ugly moth, which delights

37:42

in nothing so much as a

37:44

greasy spot in a warm room

37:46

in which will lay its eggs

37:48

next in the dining room carpet.

37:50

In that dusty corner behind the

37:52

woodbox, a venturous aunt has made

37:54

her nest, and some July morning

37:56

you will be surprised by her

37:58

emigrant family in the storeroom. especially

38:00

if spilt sugar and meal are left

38:02

to tempt them there. Under the sink

38:05

and dampness and greets, water beetles and

38:07

roaches increase like wharf rats. All these

38:09

and more in swarms I have found

38:11

in the melancholy process of clearing after

38:13

a kitchen girl who could not be

38:16

at the trouble of keeping things entirely

38:18

clean. These insects thrive on refuse and

38:20

they cannot be regarded as safe or

38:22

agreeable things in a kitchen running over

38:24

food and leaving corners offensive with their

38:27

traces. Wow. Which is like, I guess,

38:29

basically true, but like, why was that

38:31

a scary way to say that? And

38:33

also, really, again, like, something like, I

38:35

kind of raised this. Ant's immigrants, yeah.

38:38

Well, listening to that made me think

38:40

that in this time period when she's

38:42

writing, there's the kind of like dirt

38:44

and grime of just being a human

38:47

being on planet Earth that has, that

38:49

is eternal, right? And there's like the

38:51

dirt and grime of the shire. Right.

38:53

And then there's the mysterious seepage of

38:55

like industrial byproducts, which is something that

38:58

doesn't begin until at the earliest the

39:00

first industrial revolution. Which probably if you're

39:02

worried about that being dangerous, you probably

39:04

also shouldn't be burning it in a

39:06

barrel. Right. But again, she tried. You

39:09

know, by the 1880s, it's, you know,

39:11

we're in industrialization. So there's both. And

39:13

there's, you know, there's, there is not

39:15

a good handle on either one. So

39:17

I can actually see, I'm not going

39:20

to say that I can sympathize with

39:22

her character as like the sort of

39:24

insect immigrant analogies, like not super great.

39:26

But I do understand that sense that

39:28

you're under siege. that like things are

39:31

you know something's in the walls that's

39:33

kind of you know because it's it

39:35

takes so much effort and to mitigate

39:37

any of that and nothing is automated

39:40

everything is is hard to do yeah

39:42

it's it's fascinating yeah Yeah, and I

39:44

think it is like the sense of

39:46

infestation by a new kind of dirt

39:48

is true and real, but then it's,

39:51

has today, mixing with a sense of

39:53

anxiety and racism aimed at other human

39:55

beings and classes in crucially, because also

39:57

when the clean house becomes a sign

39:59

of virtue and anyone who can't keep

40:02

their house clean must be a bad

40:04

person and un-American as opposed to having

40:06

no time. I needs to be visited

40:08

by a social worker. Yeah. And let

40:10

me also read to you just a

40:13

little bit here about, from this insane

40:15

book, about the tools that you're going

40:17

to use, because here we are in

40:19

a time of anxiety, racially describing cleaning

40:21

a kitchen and cleaning, you know, everything,

40:24

because we don't know where the threat

40:26

is coming from. And yet it doesn't

40:28

cost that much. So I'll read you

40:30

what we're supposed to do. Okay. Have

40:32

everything eatable covered closely and put away,

40:35

tables and sink cleared, plenty of hot

40:37

water, two pales, an old broom, and

40:39

a clean new one, two scrubbing brushes,

40:41

a stumpy whisk broom for cleaning windows,

40:44

a stout nut picker, or sharp skewer

40:46

of hard wood, to get the dirt

40:48

out of cracks, plenty of cloths for

40:50

wiping glass and paint. Old flannel or

40:52

marino underwear makes soft mop cloths, which

40:55

ring easily. You must have good tools

40:57

to work with and a well set

40:59

mop and large cloths will do. the

41:01

cleaning in half the time of poor

41:03

ones. If you haven't old cloths enough

41:06

it pays to buy a yard or

41:08

two of course tolling for floor cloth

41:10

and six penny unbleached cotton for wiping

41:12

paint. For your cleaning outfit you will

41:14

want a bath brick which will cost

41:17

five cents, a peck of clean sand,

41:19

ten cents. A cake of mineral soap,

41:21

eight cents, a pound of whiting soda,

41:23

five, a Can of solid lie or

41:25

potash, 10, a quart of cheap ammonia,

41:28

25, mop 50, broom 25, two whisks.

41:30

10, flannel 25, two yards of tolling,

41:32

20, two yards of cotton, 13, and

41:34

all four 16, save $5 to allow

41:36

for difference in prices. You would pay

41:39

this for the poorest servant one fortnight

41:41

or for a charwoman half a day

41:43

each week and two months. Who would

41:45

not do your work merely as well

41:48

and who would waste twice the supplies

41:50

you will want in the time? So

41:52

again, great advice paired with the idea

41:54

that you're doing this to prove that

41:56

you're better than working class women I

41:59

guess. That you would hire. Yeah. There's

42:01

virtue in doing it yourself because you've

42:03

got skills. Because you're proving and also

42:05

again this kind of sense of moral

42:07

superiority of like I can clean better

42:10

than someone whose job it is to

42:12

clean and I don't even make a

42:14

living doing it but I'm still better

42:16

at it and I'm better than everything

42:18

and the ants are amigrating into my

42:21

kitchen. You've stopped the wave of immigration

42:23

to the kitchen. But also, what's super

42:25

interesting is that it's kind of classifying,

42:27

it's denigrating the profession of cleaning and

42:29

valorizing cleaning as a kind of calling.

42:32

Right. So you're not being, right, you're

42:34

not paid to clean your own house,

42:36

you're kind of doing that because it's

42:38

good for the health of your family.

42:41

Yeah, I'm kind of enforcing this idea

42:43

of a wholly bond between the woman

42:45

and the woman in the home, which

42:47

is also interesting because this is really,

42:49

dangerous dirt or you know some of

42:52

it is I mean there's like soot

42:54

everywhere if you're living in a city

42:56

you know I mean right right things

42:58

are grimy and you're breathing in a

43:00

lot of really dangerous stuff you have

43:03

during this period when industrialization is making

43:05

homes dirtier also kind of because of

43:07

that technology the first women who can

43:09

be expected to keep a home all

43:11

by themselves which wasn't really you know

43:14

exactly which wasn't possible before yeah because

43:16

either you had, you know, you were

43:18

just kind of getting by and you

43:20

were doing what you could and taking

43:22

care of your own house and your

43:25

own stuff. or you were rich and

43:27

you had a house that other people

43:29

could take care of. And now the

43:31

sort of era of the servantless virtue

43:33

signaling housewife or the housewife who has

43:36

a cleaning lady, but who's not good

43:38

enough and who she always complains about,

43:40

which certainly is a type that has

43:42

endured. And who she says veiled racist

43:45

things about also. Okay, I'm just looking

43:47

at how much $5 in 1884 is

43:49

today. Are you on the inflation calculator?

43:51

So about $160, but that's like for

43:53

the rest of your life, you know,

43:56

it's pretty good. He's also advocating for

43:58

using steam heat to loosen stuff up,

44:00

which again is like, you know, exactly

44:02

what we're doing now. So it feels

44:04

like looking at our Victorian forebears, you

44:07

know, things have changed and things have

44:09

stayed the same. And the thing that

44:11

stayed the same is that expressing the

44:13

lack of control you feel about the

44:15

world on your home by trying to

44:18

control it. is I think is something

44:20

that people do, but it used to

44:22

cost less and there are now so

44:24

many more ways for us to over-consume

44:26

products while doing it. And one of

44:29

the things that this all made me

44:31

think about and that this is of

44:33

course inevitably related to is, you know,

44:35

we're sort of fixated on the performance

44:37

of hygiene, perhaps more than actual hygiene.

44:40

And that also seems linked to the

44:42

fact that we're being very, at least,

44:44

and there's a lot of social media

44:46

culture that is pushing us to be

44:49

very over the top about how much

44:51

we consume and then all of the

44:53

storage space that we need to house

44:55

it and organize it and reconfigure it

44:57

and put it in clear containers and

45:00

organize it by color and all that

45:02

and I think home organizing is honestly

45:04

one of the most important things that

45:06

a person can do. but only if

45:08

they do it to the level of

45:11

their own happiness because anything more than

45:13

that. It's a recipe for Missouri. It's

45:15

unnecessary. It's not for you. If when

45:17

it stops being for you, it's that's

45:19

there's no point to it or you

45:22

know when it stops being. for the

45:24

people who live in the house. And

45:26

this is, you know, I think a

45:28

big driving idea behind everyone's big Marie

45:30

Condo phase, which I still haven't read

45:33

that book, but I feel like I

45:35

probably absorbed it through seepage and to

45:37

everybody else's stuff. Right, but this basic

45:39

idea that doesn't have to be minimalism,

45:42

I think, so much is just... having

45:44

your objects serve you, that like everything

45:46

you bring into your home takes up

45:48

a finite amount of space and energy

45:50

that you have, and so you have

45:53

to make sure that the things you

45:55

have are things that you really like,

45:57

because everything you own is something that

45:59

has to live somewhere, you have to

46:01

clean it, you have to pick it

46:04

up and clean under it, you have

46:06

to move it around, you have to

46:08

find a place for it to go.

46:10

And part of the aesthetic I think

46:12

that we're seeing with over-the-the-the-top cleaning, cleaning

46:15

and also big open-open plan houses, houses,

46:17

is getting a big house and then

46:19

needing to get a lot of stuff

46:21

to put in it so that it

46:23

feels complete and then needing greater systems

46:26

of organization in order to make it

46:28

all seem cohesive as an aesthetic. And

46:30

so really I think the big question

46:32

is, is your house serving you and

46:34

is your stuff serving you? Or are

46:37

you serving your stuff? And also in

46:39

the question of, do you need all

46:41

this? Isn't this overconsumption? I think the

46:43

answer... we've come up with culturally partly

46:46

is like, well, it's fine if people

46:48

can afford it, which like, hey, you

46:50

know, there's a lot of questions surrounding

46:52

what affording anything means when the dollar

46:54

is so destabilized and when the economy

46:57

is so erratic. But also I think

46:59

like even taking that out, you could

47:01

also ask whenever you want to get

47:03

something new or thinking about you know,

47:05

just bringing a new, like a new

47:08

gagget or a new gagget or a

47:10

new gagget or a new kizmoa plenty

47:12

into your life. Like, can I afford

47:14

this in terms of time? You know?

47:16

Right. Because the stuff you own costs

47:19

time and the cleaning technology that you

47:21

own and the things that you decide,

47:23

you have to clean in order to

47:25

be, you know, maybe not necessarily happy,

47:27

but keeping up with everybody else. No

47:30

matter what it costs time. No matter

47:32

what it costs time. watching her show

47:34

and kind of reading up on her

47:36

and I think I wrote something about

47:38

her when the show was on Netflix

47:41

and she's kind of actually not anti-maximalism

47:43

per se. Her philosophy essentially is like

47:45

she doesn't care if like if what

47:47

you really want is to have your

47:50

like collection of like 800 China dolls

47:52

on display in your living room. That's

47:54

what makes you happy. and like the

47:56

way to make room for that is

47:58

to sort of deaccession some other stuff

48:01

then like make it make that work

48:03

like make it work for you and

48:05

it doesn't necessarily what somebody else would

48:07

want and it's not necessarily you know

48:09

it doesn't necessarily look decluttered per se

48:12

but that's right It's about kind of

48:14

exactly what you're saying, essentially making your

48:16

house work for you because you're the

48:18

one who lives there. Which is a

48:20

great idea to keep in mind, you

48:23

know, that I accidentally learned without having

48:25

to read a whole book. But you

48:27

know, that like, because as you're saying,

48:29

like, it feels like everybody is looking

48:31

into each other's houses now, there's more

48:34

of a sense of like the home

48:36

as performance. And yeah, it's nice to

48:38

sort of come back into the reality

48:40

that like, like, for you because it's

48:43

not anybody else's and you're paying for

48:45

the stupid thing. Right. And you have

48:47

to be there all the time. And

48:49

chances are you have to work there.

48:51

I'm actually working right now on a

48:54

piece that's tentatively called in defense of

48:56

the China Cabinet because there's this kind

48:58

of like, I think that we've culturally

49:00

we've fallen out of love with the

49:02

idea of the Vatrain that people are

49:05

kind of, you know, it seems very

49:07

old school. because we have so much,

49:09

there's such a push toward kind of

49:11

clutter solutions and kind of organizational solutions

49:13

for your house, your garage, whatever, that

49:16

I think we forget to celebrate the

49:18

objects that are meaningful to us sometimes.

49:20

So it's like. things that you want

49:22

on display that you want to look

49:24

at every day that somebody made for

49:27

you or that you collected somewhere that

49:29

collecting there's nothing wrong with collecting stuff

49:31

and it's having to have stuff on

49:33

display but you know let's sort of

49:35

find smart ways to display that stuff

49:38

rather that doesn't feel like it's a

49:40

problem to solve yeah you know what

49:42

I mean yeah and I think it's

49:44

just it's one of those things where

49:47

like cleaning and eating are like are

49:49

two things that basically everybody has to

49:51

do or they should be doing and

49:53

so they inevitably become expressions of sort

49:55

of how people feel about the world

49:58

and then you'll see people you know

50:00

this is another big use for social

50:02

media people telling you with absolute certainty

50:04

something that you must be doing in

50:06

your house or else you will die

50:09

very soon you know or that you

50:11

must be doing or else you're gross

50:13

and nobody wants to be gross. Yeah

50:15

I think that what maybe feels a

50:17

little bit radical at this moment is

50:20

the idea that it's all personal and

50:22

you get to, you know, above the

50:24

level of hygiene where, you know, your

50:26

house isn't dangerous to you, you know,

50:28

and if it doesn't make you uncomfortable,

50:31

then like it just doesn't matter what

50:33

you do. I love going into somebody's

50:35

house and finding that it's really unusual

50:37

or just seems very them. You know

50:39

what I mean? That's so much more

50:42

interesting than going into a house that's

50:44

sort of like... perfectly immaculately clean that

50:46

looks like it was scrubbed within an

50:48

inch of its life and has no

50:51

personality and no stuff and no mementos

50:53

and no souvenirs from travel and you

50:55

know just I like going into a

50:57

house that sort of has that's full

50:59

of stories and if you if you

51:02

declutter the majestic out of it then

51:04

you're missing all of that that narrative

51:06

yeah you know it's a way to

51:08

learn about a person right and also

51:10

it's like decluttering isn't something that you

51:13

do once and be done with you

51:15

just kind of have to be thinking

51:17

about whether the stuff you have is

51:19

still stuff that you like kind of

51:21

as you go. And yeah, the two

51:24

things I've learned that I find so

51:26

annoying to be true, but I really

51:28

think they are is that you just

51:30

kind of always have to be cleaning

51:32

stuff a little bit and then you'll

51:35

never have to be cleaning stuff a

51:37

lot or you will sometimes, but not

51:39

that much. And B, that if everything

51:41

has a place where it typically goes,

51:44

then you can find it a lot

51:46

easier, which is why I have seven

51:48

different measuring measuring tapes. because they all

51:50

went to different places and every time

51:52

I needed one I had to buy

51:55

a new one and then last year

51:57

I cleaned my whole house and I

51:59

found them all and I have seven.

52:01

Well, maybe seven is the perfect number

52:03

of measuring tapes. It probably is. Like

52:06

one for every room, like you can

52:08

just have, have, like, a, me and

52:10

my six roommates someday. And we all

52:12

have to measure things simultaneously. A certain

52:14

amount of ritual is helpful in, in

52:17

terms of just, you know. however much

52:19

it is helpful to implement into your

52:21

life. But the answer, I guess, is

52:23

just that everybody, people know individually how

52:25

much they do or don't need and

52:27

what does or doesn't work for them.

52:29

And I think it's just that so

52:31

much of capitalism is being driven now

52:33

or of consumer capitalism as being driven

52:36

now by telling us new categories

52:38

of things that we're not doing enough

52:40

at in order to be happy. And maybe

52:42

that's why we're not happy because we're not

52:44

sleeping with all these appliances on

52:47

our heads, you know. Exactly. Right.

52:49

I mean, they're always looking for

52:51

a new problem to solve. Yeah.

52:53

But also, if you, like

52:56

me, thought that acrylic fridge bins

52:58

would make you happy, it's okay.

53:00

And also they did kind of

53:02

make me happy because it's easier

53:04

to get stuff from the back.

53:07

Yeah, I'm right in the middle

53:09

on fridge organizing. Like, I think

53:11

that you can take it too

53:13

far. But I think, oh, yeah,

53:15

no, I do. It's a no man's

53:17

land. Yeah. Another thing that occurs to

53:19

me is that I have never seen

53:22

a clean talk video sponsored

53:24

by Barkeeper's friend and I'm not

53:26

saying that means they haven't done

53:28

it. I'm not saying their hands

53:30

are like, you know, perfectly clean,

53:33

but Barkeeper's friend is the

53:35

perfect product because you buy

53:37

one thing of it. I have like

53:39

the thing of Barkeeper's friend I have will

53:41

be like a third full when I'm dead

53:43

because you don't need it. I mean it's

53:46

not like windex. Yeah, you don't use that

53:48

much of it. You don't need very much

53:50

of it. It doesn't look cool when you

53:52

use it. It's not an interesting color. It

53:55

doesn't show up well on video. All it

53:57

does is what it says it's supposed to

53:59

do. So I guess also like

54:02

it's it's a truth unfortunately that

54:04

like a really good product is

54:06

not going to be Marketable in

54:08

this way because it's something that

54:10

lasts forever and that you don't

54:13

need to buy that many of

54:15

right that it's not inherently disposable

54:17

Yeah, yeah, so the stuff you

54:19

really need you're maybe not going

54:21

to be encountering in the most

54:24

spectacular visual way and that's okay

54:26

too and also It's okay that

54:28

we want to watch toilets filled

54:30

with ice, you know? I'm not

54:32

going to tell anyone not to.

54:35

After we finish this conversation, I'm

54:37

going to go watch six or

54:39

seven of those. But okay, so

54:41

Miss Sarah Archer, I threw you

54:43

a curveball because I sent you

54:46

a poem by Jonathan Swift that

54:48

I told you I wanted you

54:50

to read in this episode and

54:52

I hope that it makes a

54:54

little bit more sense now why

54:57

I asked you to read it.

54:59

So this is called, and I

55:01

don't know what you're at's from,

55:03

but this is called The Lady's

55:05

Dressing Room by Jonathan Swift. 1732.

55:08

Oh, wow. It's about Strefon and

55:10

Celia. I don't have Strefon running

55:12

around. Five hours, and who can

55:14

do it less in? By Hottie

55:16

Celia spent in dressing, the goddess

55:19

from her chamber issues. arrayed in

55:21

lace, brocades, and tissues. Strefon, who

55:23

found the room was void, and

55:25

Betty otherwise employed, stole in and

55:27

took a strict survey of all

55:30

the litter as it lay, whereof,

55:32

to make the matter clear, an

55:34

inventory follows here. And first a

55:36

dirty smock appeared, beneath the armpits

55:38

well besmeared, Strefon, the rogue, displayed

55:41

it wide, and turned it round

55:43

on every side. On such a

55:45

point, few words are best, and

55:47

Strefon bids us guess the rest,

55:49

but swears how damnably the men

55:52

lie, in calling Celia sweet and

55:54

cleanly. Is that meant to be

55:56

cleanly? Is it meant to run

55:58

with men-lie? I think that pronunciations

56:01

have shifted during the flight. in

56:03

calling Celia sweet and cleanly. Now

56:05

listen while he next produces the

56:07

various combs for various uses, filled

56:09

up with dirt so closely fixed,

56:12

no brush could force away betwixt.

56:14

A paste of composition rare. Sweat,

56:16

dandruff, powder, lead, and hair. A

56:18

forehead cloth with oil upon it

56:20

to smooth the wrinkles on her

56:23

front, here alumn flower to stop

56:25

the steams, exhaled from sour unsavory

56:27

streams. Hard by a filthy basin

56:29

stands, fouled with the scouring of

56:31

her hands. The basin takes whatever

56:34

comes, the scrapings of her teeth

56:36

and gums, a nasty compound of

56:38

all hues, for here she spits

56:40

and here she spews. But, oh,

56:42

it turned poor Streffon's bowels, when

56:45

he beheld and smelled the towels,

56:47

begummed, bematted, and must you needs

56:49

describe the chest? That careless wench!

56:51

No creature warned her to move

56:53

it out from yonder corner. All

56:56

the time before, as from within

56:58

Pandora's box, when Epimetheus opened the

57:00

locks, a sudden universal crew of

57:02

human evils upward flew. He still

57:04

was comforted to find that hope

57:07

at last remained behind. So Steffon

57:09

lifting up the lid to view

57:11

what in the chest was hid,

57:13

the vapors flew from out the

57:15

vent, but Steffon cautious never meant,

57:18

the bottom of the pan to

57:20

grope, and foul his hands in

57:22

search of hope. Oh, never may

57:24

such vile machine be once in

57:26

Celia's chamber scene. Oh, may she

57:29

better learn to keep those secrets

57:31

of the hoary deep. The petty

57:33

coats, the gown perfume. which waft

57:35

a stink round every room, thus

57:37

finishing his grand survey, disgusted Strefhan

57:40

stole away, repeating in his amorous

57:42

fits, when Celia in her glory

57:44

shows, if Strefhan on wood but

57:46

stop his nose. Who now so

57:48

impiously blasphemes, her ointments, Dobbs, and

57:51

paints and creams, her washes, slobs

57:53

at every clout, with which he

57:55

makes so foul a rout? He

57:57

soon would learn to think like

57:59

me, and bless his ravage sight

58:02

to see. Such order from confusion

58:04

sprung, such gaudy tulips raised from

58:06

dung. Wow, I mean, we've been

58:08

thinking about that for a long

58:11

time. Oh, Celia, Celia, Celia, Celia,

58:13

Shitts. Does she ever? And don't

58:15

we all? And I mean, yeah,

58:17

tell me your thoughts. When you're

58:19

intimate with somebody and then you're

58:22

attracted to them and want to

58:24

be as close to them as

58:26

you possibly can, that they're also

58:28

still a human being that who

58:30

does things that are like you

58:33

don't want to be all up

58:35

in, and that you need to

58:37

kind of navigate those boundaries. in

58:39

whatever way you can and it's

58:41

kind of that the edifice of

58:44

this if an idealized person kind

58:46

of falls away when you share

58:48

a house with them or a

58:50

room with them it's you know

58:52

and everything is up close in

58:55

person when you shit in the

58:57

same box which probably is what

58:59

marriage meant in the 1700s or

59:01

maybe they add separate boxes I

59:03

don't know different Yeah, that you're

59:06

confronted with somebody's humanity and you

59:08

never kind of quite see them

59:10

the same way again, but if

59:12

it's, you know, that's what you

59:14

want. Part of I think what

59:17

the sort of cleanliness theater that

59:19

we're watching people go through with

59:21

kind of, you know, whether we're

59:23

actually doing it or doing it

59:25

sincerely or just watching it as

59:28

a spectator sport, that so much

59:30

of what women are doing online

59:32

lately is basically like obsessively cleaning

59:34

ourselves in the spaces we live

59:36

in so that not a single

59:39

flake of skin can exist as

59:41

evidence that we were there, even

59:43

on our own skin. We have

59:45

to take that off too. And

59:47

just the idea that like, I

59:50

don't know, to be a person

59:52

is to... be gross, it's fine,

59:54

you can be gross. Yeah, I

59:56

mean, it's, you can't get away

59:58

from that and I think to

1:00:01

be kind of continually gross is

1:00:03

to be alive. Yeah, that's true.

1:00:05

Right. To survive is to just

1:00:07

keep finding new ways to be

1:00:09

gross. And also it's like as

1:00:12

you age, like your, like not

1:00:14

only, right, like not only does

1:00:16

your appearance change, but also like,

1:00:18

you know. It just keeps doing

1:00:20

new weird shit. You get hairs

1:00:23

in new places like throughout your

1:00:25

life, not just in puberty. I'm

1:00:27

getting chin hairs now. I don't

1:00:29

know why. Welcome. It's good to

1:00:32

have your hair. And what if

1:00:34

the wind comes up and blows

1:00:36

them in again? And

1:00:38

it is only the beginning, I

1:00:40

know. It's only the big, yes,

1:00:43

you have such a long adventure

1:00:45

awaiting you. It's also kind of,

1:00:47

I think, there's like a generative

1:00:49

AI slop aesthetic, now I have

1:00:51

the word slop on the brain

1:00:54

because of the poem, but it's

1:00:56

also AI slop, that is exceedingly

1:00:58

smooth. And the idea of kind

1:01:00

of computer generated or synthetic, you

1:01:03

know, is an entity that doesn't

1:01:05

have like gross hairs or gross

1:01:07

skin cells or whatever it is

1:01:09

that we're constantly shedding in our

1:01:12

domestic spaces and all around the

1:01:14

world and kind of wanting to

1:01:16

be free of that messiness, all

1:01:18

the stuff that we like birth

1:01:20

and death, all the stuff that

1:01:23

we kind of pushed to one

1:01:25

side and don't focus on. things

1:01:27

that used to be much more

1:01:29

common to see in real life

1:01:32

that nowadays are much less so.

1:01:34

Yeah, and this idea of sort

1:01:36

of women's work being partly concealing

1:01:38

the grossness that just is required

1:01:40

by existing and having babies and

1:01:43

taking care of babies and raising

1:01:45

beautiful cats as well. Yeah, exactly,

1:01:47

raising beautiful cats, exactly. Yeah, if

1:01:49

you want a real depressing deep

1:01:52

dive, go into the history of

1:01:54

advertising for products to make women

1:01:56

less odiferous. Oh yes, the vaginal

1:01:58

odor industry. Yeah, it's just, it's

1:02:00

so, I wish they would just

1:02:03

leave everybody alone. I mean, who

1:02:05

decided that vagina wasn't a perfectly

1:02:07

nice smell is what I would

1:02:09

like to know. It's perfectly pleasant

1:02:12

and people need to just, yeah,

1:02:14

just let us live. If anything,

1:02:16

we should make more things smell

1:02:18

like vaginas. And with that, I

1:02:21

will see myself out. It was

1:02:23

great to have you here. And

1:02:36

that was our episode. Thank

1:02:38

you so much for being

1:02:40

here. Thank you for listening.

1:02:42

Thank you for journeying into

1:02:44

the future with us. Thank

1:02:46

you to Sarah Archer for

1:02:48

being such a delightful guest

1:02:50

as always. Sarah Archer has

1:02:52

written books that you should

1:02:54

check out including the mid-century

1:02:56

kitchen, mid-century Christmas, and Catland,

1:02:58

the soft power of cat

1:03:00

culture in Japan. You can

1:03:02

visit Sarah Archer's website at

1:03:04

Sarah dash archer.com and you

1:03:06

can find her on Instagram

1:03:08

at Sarcherize. Thank you to

1:03:10

Miranda Zickler for editing. Thank

1:03:12

you to Carolyn Kendrick for

1:03:15

editing and producing. We will

1:03:17

see you in two weeks.