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Virginia by Sheven as many campuses

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including at 2121 15th Street North

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in Arlington Virginia. Hello

0:46

and welcome back to Beyond the

0:48

To-Do list, a podcast about productivity.

0:50

I'm your host, Eric Fisher, and

0:52

I'm excited to welcome back to

0:55

the show, Oliver Berkman. This time

0:57

we're talking about his new book,

0:59

Meditations for Mortals. Four weeks to

1:01

embrace your limitations and make time

1:03

for what counts. Oliver's a journalist

1:06

and an author best known for

1:08

his book, 4,000 weeks. time management

1:10

for mortals, this conversation continues that

1:12

through line from 4,000 weeks, bridging

1:14

the gap focusing on action and

1:17

the gap between knowing and doing.

1:19

We're also talking about the illusion

1:21

of control versus agency and why

1:23

often we seek control over our

1:25

lives and how accepting our limitations

1:28

can actually increase our capacity. for

1:30

choosing meaningful action. We also talk

1:32

about breaking free from productivity debt

1:34

and how many of us start

1:36

each day feeling behind and what

1:39

we can do to change that

1:41

mindset. We're also talking about the

1:43

value of small decisions and next

1:45

steps and how making peace with

1:47

uncertainty and taking that next available action

1:49

can lead to lasting change. If you're

1:52

a fan of Oliver's like I am,

1:54

you know that his insights will challenge

1:56

the way you think about productivity, time

1:59

management and... how to make space

2:01

for what truly matters and

2:03

that you're going to enjoy

2:05

this conversation with Oliver Berkman.

2:07

Well it is my privilege to

2:09

welcome back to the show Oliver

2:11

Berkman, Oliver, welcome back to Beyond

2:14

the To-do list. Thank you for

2:16

having me back. I knew I had

2:18

to have you back. I mean it was

2:20

a privilege to have you on the first

2:22

time because so many people liked and

2:25

loved at that first book, 4,000 weeks

2:27

and I think we should... do a

2:29

quick like, hey, what's that about before

2:31

we transition over to this new one?

2:33

Meditations for mortals. I think a lot

2:35

of people first read that as meditation

2:38

for mortals. I know I did. Then

2:40

I said, oh, and I thought, oh,

2:42

that's a cool next chapter for Oliver

2:44

to write about. And then I was

2:46

like, oh, it's not about that. His

2:48

approach to meditation would be interesting, but

2:50

that's not what this is, but it's

2:53

meditation for mortals for mortals for weeks

2:55

to embrace your limitations and make

2:57

for what counts. in a sense

2:59

what the first book was about.

3:01

So what's the throughput here? What's

3:03

the through line I should say?

3:05

Let's synopsize that first book real

3:08

quick and then transition to, okay,

3:10

what's this next chapter in this

3:12

dialogue for you? Yeah, sure. I

3:14

mean, I guess 4,000 weeks that

3:16

that title refers to the average

3:18

life expectancy in the developed world

3:20

and it's really a book about

3:23

taking seriously the fact that we're finite

3:25

when it comes to how we think about

3:27

our time and how we spend our

3:29

days. Not in I desperately trying to scare

3:31

the reader into doing extraordinary

3:34

things way, but more in the sense

3:36

of how it really can change the

3:38

fabric, the texture of the day-to-day in

3:40

a positive direction if you sort of

3:42

take account of the fact that we

3:44

have such limited time and such limited

3:46

control over that time. So the subtitle

3:48

of that book is Time Management for

3:51

mortals, and I kind of... I don't know,

3:53

it amused me to combine what feels

3:55

like a very sort of narrow idea

3:57

time management with such sort of

3:59

excess. one as being mortal and

4:01

time making the case that time management

4:03

is not a narrow concern. It's sort

4:06

of the question of how we how

4:08

we live out our finite lives on

4:10

the planet. I guess you could say

4:13

that that is ultimately a sort of

4:15

a philosophical book. It's a kind of

4:17

I'm trying to lead people into a

4:20

perspective shift that has meant a lot

4:22

to me about trying to explain why

4:24

I think it's both relaxing and empowering

4:27

to really stare finitude in the face

4:29

instead of what we usually do which

4:31

is find all sorts of ways to

4:33

try not to acknowledge it. So I

4:36

mean to move on to this new

4:38

book Meditations for Models and yes I

4:40

am running into some issues there with

4:43

the title. What I've been saying is

4:45

that the person who I'm sort of

4:47

arrogantly taking the mantle from here is

4:50

not Buddha but Marcus Aurelius whose original

4:52

meditations is pretty well known as a

4:54

sequence of thoughts to reflect upon in

4:57

a hopefully edifying and enlightening way. The

4:59

theme here is still... the fact that

5:01

we're finite, maybe that's going to be

5:03

my theme forever. What I wanted to

5:06

do differently here, and I certainly don't

5:08

need to have read one book to

5:10

read the other, I don't think, I

5:13

really wanted to focus this time around

5:15

on what seemed to me to be

5:17

a missing piece, which is, it's all

5:20

very well to know how you would

5:22

want to spend your life and to

5:24

have a sense of how you want

5:27

to show up in the world as

5:29

a... finite human or as anybody, but

5:31

it's a very different thing to actually

5:34

do it, right, to come over that

5:36

gap from knowing to doing. And I

5:38

wanted to write a book that was

5:40

really specifically focused on action and on

5:43

what it means to take action and

5:45

how to take action in hopefully a

5:47

sort of different and interesting way, not

5:50

a kind of old-school motivational just shout

5:52

at people until they guiltfully take a

5:54

bit of action. for a few weeks

5:57

and then give up. And I'm also

5:59

a format and the structure of the

6:01

book is intended to sort of read

6:04

it all. Yes, I thought that was

6:06

a unique piece that differentiates it from

6:08

the first one. If the first one

6:10

is philosophical. this one doesn't eschew the

6:13

philosophical approach but adds a practical layer

6:15

to it where it's a four-week journey.

6:17

It's daily meditations that take you through

6:20

that productivity, well I dare to say

6:22

productivity advice, it's not necessarily that, but

6:24

it's this concept of sitting with imperfectionism

6:27

and allowing the... process of letting go

6:29

of the illusion of control over many

6:31

different things time and expectations and outcome

6:34

and people and ourselves and all of

6:36

that it's almost like a workshop over

6:38

the course of a month yeah yeah

6:41

exactly I mean it is not compulsory

6:43

to read it one chapter per day

6:45

for 28 days, but that's how it's

6:47

divided up into four weeks. They're short

6:50

chapters. You can easily do it. Something

6:52

that I have really concluded from my

6:54

own experience and from talking to other

6:57

people and reading and everything is that

6:59

the really practical thing when it comes

7:01

to making personal change, getting around to

7:04

more of the things that really matter,

7:06

actually the perspective shift is the really

7:08

practical thing. And the things that are

7:11

techniques and tools and methods and that

7:13

feel very practical, are often... totally useless

7:15

if they're not accompanied by a kind

7:17

of deeper perspective shift. So what I'm

7:20

trying to do here is kind of

7:22

help that perspective shift take root by

7:24

like, you know, igniting little thought bombs

7:27

day to day for a month if

7:29

I'm successful, it's not for me to

7:31

say. And then sure, offering techniques, offering

7:34

ways you can bring this into reality

7:36

to take action to sort of let

7:38

action happen, which I think is a

7:41

really important part of it, maybe we

7:43

can talk about. So I really wanted

7:45

to kind of square the circle between,

7:48

well I want this to work to

7:50

be practical, but I don't think giving

7:52

people a list of steps they need

7:54

to implement is actually the most effective

7:57

way to be practical. I think the

7:59

most effective way is to find a

8:01

way to let this kind of issue

8:04

towards life that I think is very

8:06

very widespread. It has certainly plagued me

8:08

for me as well. You mentioned dropping

8:11

bombs and exploding things. Like what's the

8:13

target here? What are you exploding? What

8:15

are you blowing up? I guess if

8:18

I'm aiming myself against something then it

8:20

is a certain kind of attitude towards

8:22

life that I think is very very

8:24

widespread. It has certainly plagued me for

8:27

a very long time. It takes many

8:29

different forms but it's root this idea

8:31

that We're going to get to some

8:34

point in our lives later, maybe very

8:36

soon, maybe a long time later, where

8:38

we're finally sort of on top of

8:41

things. We have everything under control. We

8:43

know what we're doing at last. We

8:45

don't feel like we're completely winging it.

8:48

We don't feel like we're totally overwhelmed.

8:50

We're sort of in the driver's seat

8:52

of our lives at last. And then

8:55

it's all, well, I would say plain

8:57

sailing, but if it's a driver's seat,

8:59

it should be smooth sailing. I think

9:01

this is a very understandable idea. I

9:04

think it manifests itself in all sorts

9:06

of different forms, but I think it's

9:08

sort of fundamentally flawed because it is

9:11

basically an exercise in avoidance, avoidance of

9:13

the truth that the kind of control

9:15

we want when we're pursuing that kind

9:18

of fantasy is a kind of control

9:20

that finite humans just don't get to

9:22

have, right? Because we live in a

9:25

world and we always have, but we

9:27

especially do now, when there is just

9:29

far more that you could usefully do

9:31

than you will ever get to do.

9:34

There's sort of endemic uncertainty. It's impossible

9:36

to really feel confident about what the

9:38

future holds. Goodness knows right now in

9:41

the news. That seems truer than ever.

9:43

The idea that you're going to get

9:45

a handle on everything, understand everything. Have

9:48

all the systems in your life working

9:50

smoothly. Know what you're doing and then

9:52

the real meaning of life is going

9:55

to kick in, that is a sort

9:57

of a tragic way to live ultimately

9:59

because it means that you postpone all

10:02

that stuff to a time that never

10:04

arrives instead of kind of plunging into

10:06

it now. Even though there's a kind

10:08

of a defeat involved here, it involves

10:11

letting go of a very comforting illusion,

10:13

I don't think the result is depressing

10:15

and I don't think it's sort of

10:18

passive either. It's not about just check

10:20

out and, you know, meditate until you

10:22

just sort of float around doing nothing.

10:25

It's a real help and it has

10:27

been for me in actually... getting stuck

10:29

into action here and now. And that's

10:32

the stance that I call imperfectionism in

10:34

the book, the idea that allowing ourselves

10:36

to do things badly and in the

10:39

state of total uncertainty, and without knowing

10:41

if we're going to be able to

10:43

do them consistently for the rest of

10:45

our lives. That's what actually can enable

10:48

us to do them in reality. Well,

10:50

and you referenced that in kind of

10:52

a metaphorical way when you talk about

10:55

kayaks and super yachts and the difference

10:57

between that where the super yacht like

10:59

you just said earlier, that's the sailing,

11:02

that's the cruise control, but the kayak

11:04

is different. It doesn't, you don't sit

11:06

in a kayak and just let yourself

11:09

drift, you still have to take action.

11:11

Right, exactly. This is this, I'm very

11:13

fond of this image. I don't know

11:15

if it helps everybody, but you know.

11:18

in the world is like being in

11:20

a kayak to this extent, right? You

11:22

don't really know what's coming. You can't

11:25

be certain when the rough patches and

11:27

the quiet patches are coming. You're absolutely,

11:29

as you say, right? You're not being

11:32

carried along in a sort of raft

11:34

with no capacity to steer. You can

11:36

act. But the way you act is

11:39

by taking the next action that seems

11:41

wise and the next and the next,

11:43

as opposed to this sort of image

11:46

of a super yacht where you kind

11:48

of program the whole. root into the

11:50

computer and then sit back and it

11:52

all sort of executes predictably. The other

11:55

thing of course is that being in

11:57

a kayak is kind of exhilarating and

11:59

it's very vulnerable. Bad things could happen,

12:02

this is also true of every moment

12:04

of human existence, but the sort of

12:06

reward for being open to that vulnerability

12:09

is it's also thrilling and exciting and

12:11

you feel alive. One of the things

12:13

I'm charting through these chapters as well

12:16

is this idea that actually when we,

12:18

even when we succeed in gaining a

12:20

certain high degree of control over our

12:22

lives, we kind of fail because it

12:25

turns out that what that does is

12:27

to sort of squeeze the vibrancy out

12:29

of life. And I think, you know,

12:32

many of us have that experience of

12:34

either feeling out of control or you

12:36

then you get in control and it's

12:39

like, oh, but something is lacking here.

12:41

or the kind of rattling against that

12:43

is one of the things that when

12:46

people come to start to speak about,

12:48

think about, put into plans about productivity

12:50

systems or tips or tricks or whatever

12:53

you want to call it, when they

12:55

start to head towards that, I need

12:57

to be more productive in this area

12:59

type dialogue internally or with others, they

13:02

come to it with this baggage of,

13:04

and you refer to it as starting

13:06

each day in productivity debt that they

13:09

need to pay off. And that's not

13:11

even, not only is that not fun

13:13

and starts the day horrible, but it

13:16

sets you up for failure and this

13:18

weight that you're struggling underneath and it

13:20

kills your self-worth as well. Yeah, yeah,

13:23

I think there's a absolutely 100% and

13:25

I think there's a really interesting thing

13:27

here which is that it's almost kind

13:29

of a partially religious motivation, right? It's

13:32

the idea to kind of that these

13:34

things are going to, if you can

13:36

just get on top of everything or

13:39

just find the right system to follow,

13:41

it would sort of save you in

13:43

a pretty deep and fundamental way. So

13:46

we sort of, you know, pick up

13:48

a new productivity book at the airport

13:50

or find new app or come up

13:53

with some new very very firm resolution

13:55

to put more willpower into this than

13:57

we've never managed to put before and

14:00

for a moment it's exciting because you

14:02

think like okay I'm on the I'm

14:04

on the past now as you say

14:06

that you can't win that game because

14:09

firstly because nothing can save you from

14:11

the situation of being a finite human,

14:13

vulnerable, uncertain, limited energy, limited time. Secondly,

14:16

because the input, other way of saying

14:18

the same thing is like the things

14:20

you could get your arms around are

14:23

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14:25

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14:27

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14:30

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ex-etiffs.com. And something that I found

16:06

really interesting, actually, is that I used

16:08

to throw myself at all these

16:11

productivity techniques with this kind of,

16:13

with all the desperation of a seeker

16:15

of salvation. I wouldn't have put it

16:17

like that to myself at the time.

16:19

And then they all go wrong. And

16:21

then I start hating on them. And

16:23

I start saying, well, oh, a pomodoro

16:25

technique, it's useless because it doesn't work

16:27

like this. Once you somewhat go through

16:29

the process that I've gone through and

16:32

try to write, try to help you

16:34

through in these books of being like,

16:36

well, you know, there is no salvation

16:38

from finitude, but that's okay, right?

16:40

It's not actually a problem to

16:42

be fully who we are, more

16:44

fully who we are. Those old

16:47

techniques turn out to be perfectly

16:49

useful in a kind of a

16:51

modest way. There's nothing wrong with

16:53

getting things done, you know, these things

16:55

are all totally fine if the spirit

16:57

in which you come at them is

16:59

I'm a finite human and here are

17:01

some tools in my toolbox instead

17:04

of like this is the thing that's

17:06

going to enable me to escape the

17:08

human condition. Yes, well and I

17:10

think that's the thing too that I

17:12

would say is coming at it from

17:14

the perspective of I need to

17:16

pick tools versus Before that

17:18

point, you don't just go and

17:21

pick up tools from a tool

17:23

bunch and say, okay, I have

17:25

everything I need before saying, what's

17:27

the job? Like, you gotta know

17:30

what it is you're going to

17:32

be doing first. And I think

17:34

even before the, what you're

17:36

going to be doing comes to, who

17:38

am I going to be? And kind

17:40

of saying, okay, I'm in this

17:43

world, it's... got and you talk

17:45

about this like the river versus

17:47

the bucket approach where you know

17:49

there's a river of constant information

17:52

all around us you alluded to

17:54

the news earlier and how it's

17:56

it's more constant than ever now

17:58

I recently did week long social

18:00

media fast in January. I deleted the

18:03

apps from my phone, didn't touch it

18:05

on my laptop or desktop screen attached

18:07

to it. That was liberating. It didn't

18:10

cure anything or fix any problem, but

18:12

it did lower my heart rate, lower

18:14

my stress level, helped me become more

18:16

aware of how much more like that

18:19

I want my life to be like.

18:21

And then what, and again, going back

18:23

to what I just said. What's the

18:26

job of those tools? And which of

18:28

them do I want to use? And

18:30

which of them do I think now

18:32

that I've come back to them? And

18:35

I'm not going to name names, but

18:37

there's one that starts with an F

18:39

that I think is utterly crap. So.

18:42

Yeah, I think it's really interesting. Cal

18:44

Newport, so many of whose ideas sort

18:46

of resonate with me and our subject

18:48

matter overlaps to some extent has written

18:51

about this. What he describes as the

18:53

Amish approach to technology, whereby, you know,

18:55

we think, or maybe, you know, but

18:58

I would sort of stereotypically think of

19:00

the Amish as people who just completely

19:02

shun technology. And it turns out that

19:04

if you look into this, it's actually

19:07

not the right story. The right story

19:09

is that they have a social norm

19:11

of assessing whether a new technology is

19:14

something that serves the needs and goals

19:16

of their community. And they introduce it

19:18

if they don't drive cars. but you'll

19:20

find lumber mills operated by Amish firms

19:23

where they use precision computers because that's

19:25

the right way to do that work.

19:27

And it's that whole notion of like,

19:30

yeah, we are knowledge workcrafts people, not

19:32

to get too pretentious about it. We

19:34

have our tool sets and nobody in

19:36

a, you know, a full-time carpenter would

19:39

never say like, you know, It's only

19:41

the jigsaw from now on. This is

19:43

my one tool. And every single thing

19:46

I do, I'm going to make sure

19:48

that I reuse that one tool. You

19:50

pick up the tool that's right for

19:52

the job at that moment. And it's

19:55

so liberating because actually, and same with

19:57

social media, right? I mean, this is

19:59

a big. struggle because of how they're

20:02

designed and I struggle with myself. It's

20:04

much easier to be totally addicted and

20:06

then it's sort of second most easy

20:08

to be completely renouncing and then to

20:11

use it in a way that is

20:13

helpful for your own goals is the

20:15

big challenge because that's not what the

20:18

social media platforms want. But having that,

20:20

at least having that concept in mind

20:22

I think is really helpful. You know,

20:24

you're in charge of your life in

20:27

some sense and you pick the tools

20:29

that help as opposed to... if I

20:31

can only find the philosophy that would

20:34

sort of live life for me, then

20:36

I wouldn't have to take responsibility and

20:38

I could just, you know, follow the

20:40

system and it would all happen automatically.

20:43

Yeah, it's kind of this paradox, I

20:45

think, when I'm going through the last

20:47

book in this one, of you have

20:50

no control. And yet you have way

20:52

more control than you acknowledge most of

20:54

the time. And it's that kind of

20:56

balance between those two things. It's the

20:59

acknowledging of the one and the accepting

21:01

of the other. And you can choose

21:03

which one of those is which, I

21:06

guess. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I end

21:08

up using, you know, I never quite

21:10

have settled on the language here, but

21:12

I tend to talk about control as

21:15

the kind of absolute thing that we

21:17

can't have. something like agency. I was

21:19

just going to say agency. I was

21:22

like control versus agency. Yeah, there's something

21:24

else which is what we can have.

21:26

And it's not actually a question even

21:28

of just saying like you got to

21:31

tone down your goal from control to

21:33

agency. It's actually something more like you

21:35

can only really have agency once you're

21:38

willing to surrender. Let go of control.

21:40

I mean, it's really. obviously fascinating to

21:42

me. Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing.

21:44

I mean, one of the things that

21:47

I noticed, just to go back to

21:49

the social media thing real quick here,

21:51

was I noticed that it felt, I

21:54

mean, one, I think I'm going to

21:56

do a solo episode. Actually, I know

21:58

I am. I am going to do

22:00

a solo episode on that social media

22:03

fast and just kind of walk through

22:05

what it was I did, why I

22:07

decided to do it, things I learned

22:10

from it, and steps I've taken since

22:12

then, and the next round that I'm

22:14

going to do in kind of my

22:16

iteration on the thoughts of that. But

22:19

one of the observations I noticed that

22:21

ties in here to this conversation was

22:23

that the apps are whether you're on

22:26

desktop or not, the apps are designed.

22:28

to hook you and based on what

22:30

they show you and when they show

22:32

you and how they show you and

22:35

to engage and get the endorphins and

22:37

all that kind of we've heard all

22:39

this before but it ties in here

22:42

because it hooks you in a way

22:44

that gets you to have a response

22:46

in a knee-jerk response especially. like, oh,

22:48

I either love what that is, or

22:51

I absolutely am against what that person,

22:53

or that, you know, I am for,

22:55

or again. We use the word polarizing

22:58

a lot these days, and I don't

23:00

believe that to be as entirely true,

23:02

but I do believe that it exerts

23:04

itself or exhibits itself, more so. when

23:07

we have this distance between us, when

23:09

there's not a face-to-face person in front

23:11

of us, and we can just fire

23:14

off a reaction by tapping something quickly

23:16

and easily that is noncommittal, but feels

23:18

like we're pounding our hand, or pumping

23:20

our fist, yeah, right? No, absolutely. And

23:23

it leads to all, I think you're

23:25

completely right about the sort of disembodied

23:27

aspect of this, really difficult to say

23:30

that to somebody, like in a coffee

23:32

shop in the flesh. And the other

23:34

thing that happens is... that it's sort

23:36

of systematically focuses to some extent on

23:39

small differences, right? And not that there

23:41

are not big differences in things like

23:43

the American political situation at the moment

23:46

as well as small ones, but you

23:48

end up kind of hating the person

23:50

who you think of as having drifted

23:52

away from your tribe's views much more

23:55

than you might hate, you know, some

23:57

mass murderer or somebody who's clearly done

23:59

something more morally bad by any normal

24:02

judgment. So yeah, absolutely, I think it's

24:04

not good. I'm not quite willing to

24:06

say like, there's no way to engage

24:08

with these platforms that resists that. I'm

24:11

very much not in favor of saying

24:13

like, it's your responsibility, just use willpower.

24:15

That is unfair and given the situation.

24:18

But you know, there are. Lots

24:20

of equally awful things to be said

24:22

about junk food and it is possible

24:25

I think to occasionally enjoy that and

24:27

maybe some people can and some people

24:29

can't and it's a sort of addiction

24:31

issue in that sense too but there

24:34

are lots of things in life where

24:36

if we use them all the time

24:38

it would be really bad and we

24:40

and they're very conducive to that but

24:42

we manage not to you know. Maybe

24:45

people are moderate thinkers and things like

24:47

that. So I hope that there's some

24:49

way we can come to this with

24:51

social media, but I haven't got there

24:54

yet. And I think that's where I'm

24:56

going and I'm glad you brought up

24:58

some other subject that also applies to

25:00

a lot of things actually, but it's

25:02

like you immerse yourself in it so

25:05

much that it starts to permeate or

25:07

better yet saturate you into thinking feeling

25:09

that's the only way. And so that's

25:11

where we, when we go to the

25:14

productivity space and it's like. I must

25:16

control, I must milk and carpe diem

25:18

every minute, moment, second of every four

25:20

thousand, you know, the weeks that I

25:23

have and etc. Like you've alliterated. Yeah.

25:25

Well before. And it's this idea of

25:27

letting that go, like that was one

25:29

of the tastes that I got from

25:31

taking that week and having this. Oh,

25:34

I'm not. And it wasn't that bad,

25:36

but I don't know if I'm exaggerating

25:38

or not. but me not picking up

25:40

the phone up way last too because

25:43

those apps just weren't on there. They

25:45

were like there was just no need

25:47

and it took a day and a

25:49

half two days for me to get

25:51

to that point of I would pick

25:54

it up and then I'd say what

25:56

was I gonna oh well that's not

25:58

oh okay and put it back down

26:00

and kind of catch myself and kind

26:03

of catching yourself that I I feel

26:05

is kind of what we're talking about

26:07

here when it comes to this control

26:09

versus agency thing it was oh well

26:12

okay I am mortal and I I

26:14

do not have control over everything but

26:16

what do I want and what kayak

26:18

strokes do I need to take or

26:20

could I take now instead of passively

26:23

laying back on my super yacht so

26:25

to speak you know I love that

26:27

because it really does bring the focus

26:29

back to that moment to moment decision

26:32

or almost sort of stance on life

26:34

because of course in certain corners of

26:36

hustle culture grind culture where you want

26:38

to call it that there are people

26:40

taking you can go just as far

26:43

in the direction of like okay I'm

26:45

just going to relentlessly focus on the

26:47

thing that matters and shut everything else

26:49

out that has his own quest for

26:52

an unrealistic kind of control. There are

26:54

sort of hazards on both sides of

26:56

this, sort of giving in completely to

26:58

the sort of addictive properties of social

27:01

media or becoming the kind of person

27:03

who thinks, if I just decide something

27:05

strongly enough, I ought to be able

27:07

to set my life on this course.

27:09

And it isn't either of those things.

27:12

It is that working that muscle of,

27:14

you know, right now I could do

27:16

something different. Yeah. And one of the

27:18

things I want to mention is I

27:21

like that each of the four weeks

27:23

in the book has a different theme.

27:25

And so you kind of, the first

27:27

week is kind of all like, that

27:29

kind of is where the carrying over

27:32

from the first book philosophically is, but

27:34

then week two I love that you

27:36

get into this action taking kind of

27:38

modality or dialogue, I guess. And that

27:41

in this, this is again, I can't

27:43

help but think of this when I

27:45

think of social media that we're, one

27:47

of the things that you talk about

27:50

is we waste a lot of time

27:52

avoiding decisions. And so whenever a decision,

27:54

this is what I noticed, one of

27:56

the other observations says, oh, I have

27:58

a decision to make. Well, picks up

28:01

phone, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll.

28:03

I'm avoiding any decision because

28:05

I'd rather have the guys

28:07

of, well, let me take

28:09

a, air quotes, break right

28:11

now before I tackle that

28:14

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29:12

underscore disclaimers. Yeah, completely.

29:14

It's like, each decision, have a small,

29:17

is a little encounter with, with being

29:19

finite, right, right, because... you're going to

29:21

take your decision and the other one

29:23

is going to be gone. Even in

29:25

context where you can change your mind

29:27

again, something is gone because you're moving

29:29

into the next moment of time. Other

29:31

contexts in which we reach for our distractions

29:33

have the same thing applies, right? If

29:35

when you're struggling with a piece of difficult

29:37

work that you're trying to do, maybe it's

29:40

not a decision, although you could frame it

29:42

as decisions, but like if you can't figure

29:44

out like how to write the next sentence in

29:46

a piece of writing. wonderfully tempting

29:48

to slide off into social media or

29:50

the other main time in which I

29:52

sort of encounter this is border when

29:54

you're just sort of when it feels

29:56

like really bad that you've just got to

29:58

be stuck where you are. in a line

30:00

or a delayed train or something. And

30:03

even, you know, you see, I've been

30:05

getting less bad at this myself, but

30:07

you see people hanging out at playgrounds

30:09

with their kids, right? They're just scrolling

30:12

on their phones because there's something that

30:14

strikes them as boring about that moment.

30:16

And again, I think what that is

30:19

is a moment where you're not getting

30:21

to control the speed at which things

30:23

unfold. You're just having to be there

30:26

and beyond other people's agendas and beyond

30:28

reality's agenda. Again, that's a confrontation with

30:30

finitude. Let's go to social media. The

30:32

fascinating thing to me about all of

30:35

this is that when you find a

30:37

way, as you did with your social

30:39

media first, like when you find a

30:42

way to just, you know, gently encourage

30:44

yourself to go through that unpleasantness of

30:46

making a decision or writing the next

30:49

sentence or just being present on the

30:51

delayed train, 99% of the time. It's

30:53

not horrible. It's unpleasurable. It would be

30:55

nice to not have to feel it,

30:58

but it's a really modest kind of

31:00

discomfort that you can easily cope with.

31:02

And yet we will end up wasting

31:05

hours of a day to avoid feeling.

31:07

Yeah, it's minor temporary inconvenience and we

31:09

inflate that to torture. I'm starving instead

31:11

of slightly hungry. Right, and if I

31:14

wanted to get kind of zoosophical or

31:16

maybe it's even sort of psychoanalytic about,

31:18

I would say the reason we inflate

31:21

that. is because it is a tiny

31:23

little encounter with our mortality. That is

31:25

a genuinely big deal for human beings.

31:28

One of the things that I also

31:30

noticed, instead of picking up the phone

31:32

as much, I know I'm beating a

31:34

dead horse here going back to this,

31:37

but it's the practical living out of

31:39

this was I noticed that instead of

31:41

picking up the phone, then it was

31:44

a matter of, okay, what's... what's one

31:46

next small action on something? And I

31:48

started to keep a list of, you

31:50

know, the David Allen has the two

31:53

minute rule where it's like. you know,

31:55

here's a, and I started to keep

31:57

a list of here. I kind of

32:00

broadened it past two minutes because technically

32:02

we don't know if it's two minutes.

32:04

We're estimating and that's totally fine. Let's

32:07

hold those rains a little looser here.

32:09

But I would say anything in the

32:11

two to ten minute range, if it

32:13

felt like somewhere I could pick something

32:16

up and then the time that I

32:18

would have picked up and been scrolling.

32:20

could have checked something off what's that

32:23

list and it can be a long

32:25

list but it can be in those

32:27

moments instead you know I so I

32:29

started to pull that list out and

32:32

I did an analog like I had

32:34

it on a mini legal pad to

32:36

stay off digital tools instead of picking

32:39

that phone up I instead of going

32:41

into a phone for a different app

32:43

than social stay off the phone completely

32:46

and I started to then see those

32:48

things and I said oh yeah that

32:50

one well let's see if we can

32:52

do that in less than five minutes

32:55

And invariably it would happen. I would

32:57

check it off. And it was so

32:59

things I wasn't like, because I was

33:02

trying to get it done in a

33:04

certain amount of time, I wasn't thinking

33:06

in turn, and that's got its own

33:08

pressure, but I wasn't trying to get

33:11

it perfect, just done. And by getting

33:13

those things done, started to gain more

33:15

momentum and felt lighter and freer and

33:18

all the good happy fun thoughts. Right,

33:20

yeah, no, totally. I've had that experience

33:22

in sort of not Tokyo related context,

33:25

and yeah, it's the sort of the

33:27

horror or the sort of dislike of

33:29

the idea of not doing it perfectly

33:31

will instantly send you off into social

33:34

media distractions. But if you've put something

33:36

in place where, you know, you don't

33:38

want to ruin your whole plan for

33:41

the weeks fast by giving in, there's

33:43

a little bit of pressure counterpressure going

33:45

on there. and you sort of step

33:47

into that next moment and do the

33:50

thing and yeah you were never going

33:52

to do it perfectly to begin with

33:54

nobody expects anyone to do anything perfectly

33:57

and you know life continued yeah and

33:59

gets deeper. One of the other things

34:01

I noticed was there were things that

34:04

I had let's use the word procrastinated

34:06

on hadn't done but knew I you

34:08

know again productivity debt knew I needed

34:10

to do or wanted to do for

34:13

a while but because I hadn't started

34:15

it at all I thought that it

34:17

was going to take hours and so

34:20

in one of those moments I say

34:22

okay what's that first step on that

34:24

thing like what's that? two to 10

34:27

minute thing that kick starts that kind

34:29

of gives you a little bit of

34:31

a feel around of it to see

34:33

how long the rest of it past

34:36

that first step is going to take.

34:38

And what's funny is is there were

34:40

things that I thought were going to

34:43

take hours and I got them done

34:45

all of it in about 10 fifth

34:47

like I get to that 10 minute

34:49

mark and be like this is almost

34:52

done five more minutes and this is

34:54

done. This three hour two hour thing

34:56

is done. What? Crazy. Yeah, no, I

34:59

think it's also yeah, at that point

35:01

you probably invested several hours just thinking

35:03

about how much how stressful it's going

35:06

to be. This reminds me of something

35:08

that I do mention in the in

35:10

the new book, which comes from a

35:12

Dutch Zen guy called Paul Lumens, who

35:15

who has this approach. He's got a

35:17

whole set of fascinating instructions to time

35:19

management, but the one I'm focusing on

35:22

here talks about how when were there

35:24

things that we've been avoiding doing doing.

35:27

One way of thinking about that is

35:29

that we're trying to sort of deny

35:32

the fact that they are a part

35:34

of our reality or that we have

35:36

any kind of relationship with them, which

35:39

is why, you know, if you're worried

35:41

that your bank balance might be too

35:43

low, you'd like, don't check it at

35:45

the ATM because it's like it allows

35:48

you to carry on pretending that this

35:50

isn't a real issue if you don't

35:52

have much money you have. And all

35:55

we need to do, he points out

35:57

then, is to do anything at all

35:59

that like, like, forges a relationship. with

36:02

that activity, even visualizing, which I've been

36:04

down on in general in previous writings

36:06

of my book. even just thinking about,

36:09

oh yeah, I would go to the

36:11

ATM and I would press check balance

36:13

or oh yeah, and I would call

36:16

up the doctor and I'd get this

36:18

strange pain that I've been avoiding thinking

36:20

about, I'd make an appointment. You know,

36:22

just that level of thinking can suddenly

36:25

open up like the way to doing

36:27

it in half an hour instead of

36:29

five hours or whatever because you're just

36:32

no longer investing all this energy in

36:34

trying that this isn't part of your.

36:36

reality it just it is and so

36:39

now you take the next step and

36:41

almost always that's going to be pretty

36:43

clear what that next step should be.

36:46

Yeah we often are and you say

36:48

this we often make things harder than

36:50

they need to be and part of

36:53

that is psychological and this baggage that

36:55

we bring to it but the other

36:57

part is we avoid and then we

36:59

don't engage and then when we do

37:02

engage like I said once I'm just

37:04

gonna do that bare minimum first thing

37:06

that's gonna give me more understanding, like

37:09

I'm gonna kind of, let's figure out

37:11

how big this iceberg is from the

37:13

tip of it. And once I realized,

37:16

oh, the icebergs all melted now because

37:18

of the little bit of thing I

37:20

did. And that just, and it wasn't

37:23

that it just happened once, it's that

37:25

it happened multiple times consistently over that

37:27

week and then in subsequent weeks that

37:30

I realized much like the iceberg, it

37:32

was melting and eroding. my sort of

37:34

default procrastination muscle. Now it's far from,

37:36

far from cured and I don't think

37:39

it will, it won't be. But in

37:41

a lot of ways, getting some of

37:43

that momentum to just bust through these

37:46

things, it's such a different place to

37:48

be in than I was. Yeah, yeah,

37:50

and you're reminded of your own agency

37:53

in each time. Yeah, yeah, absolutely you

37:55

reinforce that to yourself totally Yeah, so

37:57

and I think the other thing is

38:00

you know you kind of talk a

38:02

little bit about setting goals between people

38:04

setting them for those two types Yeah,

38:07

I mean the deep down answer to

38:09

that is that in one case the

38:11

idea the goal behind the goals is

38:13

total control is feeling totally dominant over

38:16

life and finally being able to relax.

38:18

And then in the other case, the

38:20

sort of more modesty what I would

38:23

call the imperfectionistic approach is the one

38:25

that sees a goal as just another

38:27

useful tool to get you in the

38:30

right direction onto the next step. So

38:32

one example I give of that is

38:34

how useful it can be. to set

38:37

a quantity goal rather than a quality

38:39

goal in certain cases. There can be

38:41

a lot to be said to pick

38:43

the obvious example for me anyway of

38:46

writing in having a daily word count

38:48

goal or a daily amount of time

38:50

spent goal because it shifts the focus

38:53

away from the question of writing the

38:55

best thing you possibly can or anything

38:57

like that. And this is something that

39:00

I mentioned in 4,000 weeks also, but

39:02

being willing to step away when the

39:04

goal is met, like even if you're

39:07

on a roll, even if you have

39:09

momentum, but this is a very interesting

39:11

thing that, you know, if you don't

39:14

face any problems with this, then I'm

39:16

not telling you to, you know, refuse

39:18

to do more work, fine, if it's

39:20

all working for you, but if it

39:23

isn't, to decide to write or whatever,

39:25

or whatever, or whatever, do what you

39:27

can in that time, and then really

39:30

make it part of the practice to

39:32

get up and walk away and deal

39:34

with that sort of tide of discomfort

39:37

that comes on. up about like, no,

39:39

no, no, maybe I should stick with

39:41

it because then maybe I forget it

39:44

finished. And in a way this is

39:46

manifested also in this suggestion that you

39:48

might read this book one chapter a

39:51

day because I kind of imagine and

39:53

I know from talking to some people

39:55

that it's not totally inaccurate. People like

39:57

me, they get a book that seems

40:00

to suggest that they, you know, it's

40:02

going to help them do some stuff

40:04

they want to do. The absolute instinct

40:07

just to just gobble it all down

40:09

instantly. and then like know it all

40:11

and then put it all into practice

40:14

and there's something really beneficial if you

40:16

can bring yourself to do it and

40:18

just portioning it out doing a little

40:21

chapter stopping sort of obliging yourself to

40:23

let that chapter sort of permeate into

40:25

you a little bit before you move

40:28

on to the next thing so tempting

40:30

to rush ahead and it's kind of

40:32

culturally celebrated right because you know if

40:34

you rush ahead from the first cocktail

40:37

for the sixth cocktail that's something that

40:39

your friends might eventually stage an intervention

40:41

about but if what you do is

40:44

just work tons our culture says you're

40:46

great for doing it so Yeah, I've

40:48

had this debate with some people to

40:51

bring it to something that has no

40:53

real consequence I liken it to the

40:55

old release schedules for television shows where

40:58

it was week by week and then

41:00

you'd have a long period of absence

41:02

and it would come back and it

41:04

would be week by week and you'd

41:07

live with it and sit with it

41:09

and dialogue with it yourself or with

41:11

others in between weeks and Then you

41:14

have Netflix that comes along and in

41:16

to a certain extent before Netflix it

41:18

was you could get the whole DVD

41:21

set or blue race set of something

41:23

and you can just watch one more

41:25

one more right before bed and watch

41:28

three four five of them and then

41:30

it's two in the morning. It's that

41:32

kind of binging mentality versus no one

41:35

episode per week each week and you

41:37

savor it and you enjoy it more

41:39

and I am I am definitely more

41:41

towards well one having grown up that

41:44

way, but then to enjoying it that

41:46

way now, that's not to say I

41:48

don't like watch three, 20, something minute

41:51

episodes with my kids when we're sitting

41:53

down like we did that last night

41:55

and it was great. But then we

41:58

stopped and we're until this coming weekend

42:00

when my daughter's back from college will

42:02

continue the show that we are watching.

42:05

And so it's kind of pacing, I

42:07

guess. Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I think

42:09

I've lost the memory of what it

42:12

was, but there's at least a couple

42:14

of shows recently where they've with great

42:16

fanfare brought it back at least in

42:18

the UK into dropping them, dropping them

42:21

weekly and not dropping them all at

42:23

once because I think people do appreciate

42:25

it and you have to have someone

42:28

else in that context, you know, it

42:30

has to be done. to you. It's

42:32

going to be very difficult if all

42:35

the episodes are there to just develop

42:37

the self-control to stop. But yeah. But

42:39

it goes back to that, like what

42:42

you were saying is like, you know,

42:44

so for example, today, well for you

42:46

it's later because you're in the UK

42:49

and you're winding down. Me, I've got

42:51

more day left, but it's like to

42:53

me, what, how much work is enough

42:55

work for me today? And That's the

42:58

question. And then I have to dwell.

43:00

Then I have to figure out the

43:02

answer to that question instead of picking

43:05

up my phone. And then figuring that

43:07

out. But it's going back to the

43:09

word count thing. It's what you were

43:12

talking about there, essentially. And right. And

43:14

this is also, yeah, the big point

43:16

here is that I should have emphasized

43:19

is that like the goal for what

43:21

would count as being finished for the

43:23

day. I wrote a news letter a

43:25

while ago, drawing on the work of

43:28

a psychologist called David Maloney. Whatever that

43:30

definition is for what will count as

43:32

being done for the day, it can't

43:35

be that you've done all the things

43:37

that need doing because that is off

43:39

the table, right? And so it's got

43:42

to be something that will leave loose

43:44

ends, that will leave things unfinished, that

43:46

will feel in some sense imperfect. That's

43:49

just a given. So then the question

43:51

is what would be the wisest practical.

43:53

Most... ambitious but realistic definition of being

43:56

done in that sense. Yeah, in a

43:58

way it's a balance between it's similar

44:00

to the control and agency. It's closure

44:02

and there's a thread there for me

44:05

that I know to pull on tomorrow.

44:07

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the best way

44:09

to put it. So Oliver, man, there's

44:12

so much more we could go into.

44:14

I don't want to give much more

44:16

away of the book because I really

44:19

do think it is worth people going

44:21

through. daily. I will say I think

44:23

people should do it daily, even if

44:26

they feel compulsion to go against that

44:28

and you have permission from Oliver himself,

44:30

I guess, to do that. But if

44:33

I try to control how people read

44:35

this book, I'm the control free. And

44:37

I'm completely violating my own ideas. Yes,

44:39

yes. So so we give you agency.

44:42

dear listener to decide yourself which way

44:44

is the best but we do I

44:46

highly suggest and I do think that

44:49

if you haven't read the first one

44:51

this one is a good one to

44:53

just jump in on and I know

44:56

Oliver agrees with me on so yes

44:58

but let's Oliver you're not just writing

45:00

books you're doing newsletters you're doing kind

45:03

of speaking things here and there and

45:05

you've got lots of other things going

45:07

on but let's kind of point everybody

45:10

to where one they can find out

45:12

more about the book and two you

45:14

your work and you know connect with

45:16

you etceter Sure, thank you. Well, for

45:19

books, please go wherever you normally get

45:21

your books or audio books, which are

45:23

read by me as well. And then

45:26

my website, oliverburgman.com, is where you can

45:28

sign up for the newsletter and find

45:30

out about other stuff. Perfect. And again,

45:33

as usual, I'll list those in the

45:35

show notes for this episode. And Oliver,

45:37

great to have you back and obviously

45:40

open door policy. And maybe we don't

45:42

wait till the next book this time.

45:44

Although I missed the first one. So,

45:47

you know, I'm kind of trailing behind.

45:49

So let's just, you know, let's do

45:51

it again at some point in the

45:53

near future. It will be nice. I

45:56

really, I do really enjoy these conversations.

45:58

Yeah. So, I'll. Thanks for being here

46:00

and we'll see you again soon. Thanks,

46:02

Aaron. Well,

46:05

that's another podcast crossed off your

46:07

listening to-do list. I hope that

46:09

you enjoyed this follow-up conversation with

46:12

Oliver Berkman in case you missed

46:14

the first one I'll list that

46:16

in the show notes for this

46:18

episode You can find that at

46:20

Beyond the to-do-list dot com. That's

46:23

also where you can find that

46:25

at beyond the to-do-list.com That's also

46:27

where you can find links to

46:29

our sponsors as well as all

46:31

the tools that I use to

46:34

make. hit that share button in

46:36

your podcast player app of choice or

46:38

again over in the show notes at

46:40

beyond the to do list dot com.

46:42

Thank you so much for sharing. Thanks

46:44

again for listening and I'll see you

46:46

next episode. So,

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