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0:41

So and welcome back to Beyond the

0:43

To-Do List, a podcast about productivity.

0:45

I'm your host, Eric Fisher, and

0:47

this episode is a re-release of

0:49

a conversation I had with Jimena

0:52

Vengochea, a researcher, author, and expert

0:54

in communication and active listening. Now

0:56

I just concluded a conversation that

0:58

I recently recorded with her, but

1:00

it made me think of this

1:02

past episode that is a hidden

1:04

gem in the catalog all about

1:06

her book, Listen Like You Mean

1:08

It, Reclaiming the Lost Art of

1:10

True Connection True Connection. this conversation

1:12

we're talking about the art of

1:14

listening and why many of us

1:16

think that we're listening when we're

1:18

actually just waiting for our turn

1:20

to speak and that there are

1:23

different levels of listening and the

1:25

difference between surface listening, empathetic listening

1:27

and why The latter is key

1:29

to deeper relationships. Also how there

1:31

are hidden needs in conversations and

1:33

how both we and the person

1:36

we're speaking with bring unspoken expectations

1:38

into every interaction and about how

1:40

to avoid common listening mistakes, why

1:42

we often get distracted when we're

1:44

in conversation, how body language impacts

1:46

connection, and how to stay present.

1:48

Jimena's insights will help you become

1:50

a better listener. I know I

1:52

could improve on that. improve your

1:54

relationships and create more meaningful connections

1:57

with. conversation you have. So enjoy

1:59

this conversation with Jimena Vengocea. Well

2:01

this week it is my privilege

2:03

to welcome to the show Jimena

2:05

Vengocea. Welcome to the show. Thank

2:07

you so much for having me.

2:09

I got to say you know

2:11

somebody would think oh a book

2:13

about listening why do we need

2:15

that but I think it's pretty

2:17

obvious once going through it how

2:19

amazing we are off track I

2:21

guess in terms of what we

2:23

think of listening and what actual

2:25

listening is. I'm so curious you

2:28

come from kind of a researcher

2:30

world and even some of the

2:32

tech space world I've seen. I'm

2:34

curious what hit you off to

2:36

this topic in particular and then

2:38

the wealth of information surrounding listening

2:40

and the importance of it and

2:42

then how to do it better.

2:44

Yeah, so my training is as

2:46

a user researcher, and that's a

2:48

role that's common in technology companies,

2:50

but isn't necessarily well known outside

2:52

of the tech industry. But basically

2:54

what you do as a user

2:57

researcher is you interview people, you

2:59

run workshops, you try and understand

3:01

people in order to help your

3:03

company build a better product. And

3:05

so that's what I've done at

3:07

companies like Pinterest, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

3:09

And as I was becoming a

3:11

researcher early on. You know, you

3:13

learn some of the core skills,

3:15

one of them being listening, because

3:17

if you're not able to really

3:19

hear what someone is saying in

3:21

conversation, you're going to walk away

3:23

with either bad data, you might

3:25

misunderstand them, or incomplete data. And

3:28

both of those in that scenario

3:30

of trying to learn something in

3:32

order to build a better product.

3:34

are pretty bad outcomes. So as

3:36

I was building up this skill

3:38

set, I also just started to

3:40

realize that these skills could just

3:42

as easily be applied outside of

3:44

a lab setting and maybe seven

3:46

or. years ago I actually wrote

3:48

an article about listening and that

3:50

was kind of my first foray

3:52

into thinking okay how do these

3:54

skills translate outside of the UX

3:57

lab and people seem to like

3:59

it and then I went back

4:01

to work you know I kind

4:03

of just kept doing what I

4:05

was doing and it wasn't until

4:07

a few years ago where I

4:09

really you know sat down and

4:11

revisited the topic and I just

4:13

realized that We're living in this

4:15

moment right now where so many

4:17

of us feel disconnected from each

4:19

other for a variety of reasons.

4:21

I think some of that's cultural,

4:23

some of it's political, some of

4:26

it has to do with technology,

4:28

some of it has to do

4:30

with the pandemic, but I think

4:32

it's a pretty pervasive feeling. And

4:34

it struck me that listening could

4:36

be a bridge to that feeling

4:38

of connection that so many of

4:40

us are craving. So I thought

4:42

Okay, now's the time, you know,

4:44

to really translate these ideas because

4:46

I think there's just a huge

4:48

potential to help people feel just

4:50

a little bit less lonely in

4:52

their day-to-day worlds through listening. Yeah,

4:54

I couldn't help but think of

4:57

all the fun times that I

4:59

had in college. when I was

5:01

a communications major studying communication theory

5:03

and this just brought back some

5:05

of those memorable moments of college

5:07

where those theories and talking about

5:09

them and discussing them all about

5:11

different communication styles and settings and

5:13

hindrances and I couldn't help a

5:15

think you know we I love

5:17

that you're honing in on listening

5:19

and what that truly is versus

5:21

just absorbing someone's talking or registering

5:23

that there's that there are sound

5:26

waves coming at you from somebody

5:28

else in other words. Yeah yeah

5:30

I mean I think that there

5:32

is a there is an understanding

5:34

of listening as just you know

5:36

like you're just giving someone your

5:38

ear you know what it's most

5:40

basic is you're letting them talk

5:42

and you're staying quiet and I

5:44

think you know there is a

5:46

distinction there are different levels of

5:48

listening there's what I would call

5:50

surface listening where you're hearing enough

5:52

of the conversation to sort of

5:55

not and smile, to, you know,

5:57

stay polite, to, you know, finish

5:59

that meeting and save face, you

6:01

know, but it's not the same

6:03

as really hearing beyond the literal

6:05

words, hearing the subtext, the meaning,

6:07

and also the emotion that that

6:09

other person may be expressing or

6:11

feeling in that moment. And when

6:13

we can get down to that

6:15

level, That's what I call empathetic

6:17

listening or you're really tuning into

6:19

the other person in a much

6:21

more whole way. And that's where

6:23

I think so much of the

6:26

connection between individuals really comes in.

6:28

And that's what makes this really

6:30

exciting conversations that you remember many

6:32

years later. Yeah, it is this

6:34

true communication that I think you

6:36

were really hitting at here with

6:38

this. And I just I couldn't

6:40

help but think that It's why

6:42

I like podcasting, because I get

6:44

to do this conversational, you know,

6:46

give and take. And if I

6:48

were to pull the curtain back

6:50

and say, I have my cues,

6:52

then to evoke a hopefully interesting

6:55

response from somebody on the other

6:57

side. And sometimes they can see

6:59

me, sometimes they can't, but that's

7:01

me coming at it from my

7:03

one-sidedness, my one-side communication perspective. That's

7:05

not me listening, though. Now I

7:07

am listening. and I'm hearing and

7:09

I am paying attention, but it's

7:11

almost like that's the perspective that

7:13

a lot of people take when

7:15

they enter into regular conversations is,

7:17

okay, what do they have to

7:19

say? How do I tell them

7:21

all that I need to? And

7:23

then this interaction can end, which

7:26

is not what you're talking about.

7:28

You're talking about true connection. Yeah,

7:30

and I think I think you're

7:32

right that there is a difference

7:34

between an interview setting where you

7:36

would naturally have some kind of

7:38

agenda, but are also trying to

7:40

actively listen to, you know. get

7:42

to that point in everyday conversation.

7:44

But I think you're right that.

7:46

We often do have an agenda

7:48

in everyday conversations. We're just not

7:50

aware of it in the same

7:52

way. Like you as an interviewer,

7:55

you've done the prep work, you

7:57

plan this in advance, right? You

7:59

think about it. We don't necessarily

8:01

put that much thought and preparation

8:03

into everyday conversations, but we still

8:05

have, there's still a thing that

8:07

we tend to want. And what's

8:09

interesting about that is when you

8:11

start to realize that every conversation

8:13

has, let's call it a hidden

8:15

need, it can change the nature

8:17

of your conversations. In the first

8:19

way, it's about thinking about, well,

8:21

what is your sort of hidden

8:24

agenda and what is the other

8:26

person's hidden need? Do these match?

8:28

Do these align? Might my agenda

8:30

be getting in the way? And

8:32

one of the things I talk

8:34

about in the book is a

8:36

very natural response that we all

8:38

have in conversation, which is a

8:40

default listening mode. So this is

8:42

your natural way of showing up

8:44

in conversation. This is the filter

8:46

that you tend to hear things

8:48

through. And it can be really

8:50

useful, or it can be a

8:52

real hindrance in conversation, depending on

8:55

that hidden need. And so an

8:57

example of that would be, if

8:59

I am someone who has a

9:01

validating default listening mode, that means

9:03

that I'm the type of person

9:05

who hears everything as, you know,

9:07

from the position of a cheerleader.

9:09

So if a friend is sharing

9:11

some struggles that they're having, let's

9:13

say with a co-worker, I'm the

9:15

person who's going to say, yeah,

9:17

but you're right and they're wrong,

9:19

like you've got this, you know,

9:21

and sometimes that's really lovely and

9:24

sometimes that's really helpful and reaffirming,

9:26

but sometimes the other person might

9:28

know that actually they are in

9:30

the wrong and they don't need

9:32

necessarily affirmation, they're looking for something

9:34

else. And so that's an example

9:36

where someone's need and your mode

9:38

start to come against each other

9:40

and they don't necessarily produce the

9:42

most connected conversation. and there are

9:44

many modes that we can bring

9:46

into conversation and it's really just

9:48

about adapting them. in the moment

9:50

and uncovering that hidden need without

9:53

sticking to our own agenda. The

9:55

hidden need might even be hidden

9:57

to the person that has the

9:59

need. You know, how often are

10:01

we, you know, how good are

10:03

we at even, you know, this

10:05

is a whole other deep tangent

10:07

we could go on and I

10:09

don't know that we need to

10:11

write this second, but how often

10:13

are we listening even to ourselves

10:15

before we enter into conversations knowing

10:17

truly what, you know, a lot

10:19

of the time we think of

10:21

listening as something I do on

10:24

my end, And it may be

10:26

to my benefit, but it's also,

10:28

and maybe more so, to the

10:30

benefit of the other person, to

10:32

be heard as well as acknowledge

10:34

that they've communicated what they need

10:36

to communicate. But it's also listening

10:38

to yourself. I've found that sometimes

10:40

some of the worst conversations I've

10:42

been in have been my fault,

10:44

not because I wasn't listening, but

10:46

because I went into it with

10:48

wrong assumptions and wrong, with unawareness

10:50

of my own thoughts and feelings

10:53

and feelings, and haven't prepared for

10:55

that conversation. Yeah, and I think

10:57

sometimes even when we think we

10:59

have prepared, we still may not

11:01

know what our need is or

11:03

we may know and be afraid

11:05

to share it. I think it's

11:07

very rare to have someone in

11:09

conversation say, you know what I

11:11

really need right now is to

11:13

be supported, right? And a lot

11:15

of times we are looking for

11:17

support, but it's hard to say

11:19

that it's hard to admit that

11:21

that's not really part of our

11:24

vocabulary in a way that other

11:26

things are like. I want you

11:28

to do this or I'm delegating

11:30

this task might be when we

11:32

talk more about our own feelings,

11:34

many of us tend to shy

11:36

away from that. And that's where

11:38

from a listener's perspective, it can

11:40

be frustrating where you're sort of

11:42

trying to figure out what this

11:44

other person needs and it would

11:46

be so much easier if they

11:48

just told you, but it's just

11:50

not human nature for us to

11:53

do that. And so... as the

11:55

listener, you're sort of helping pull

11:57

that out, but you're also doing

11:59

that in partnership with the other

12:01

person. You know, you're not necessarily

12:03

projecting your interpretation on them. nor

12:05

is the point to push them

12:07

so far that, you know, you

12:09

get them to admit that, but

12:11

they're crying by the time they

12:13

admit that for example. So it

12:15

is a partnership as opposed to,

12:17

you know, one side being completely

12:19

responsible for either receiving and understanding

12:22

and interpreting everything or, you know,

12:24

declaring explicitly that need. They have

12:26

to work in tandem, I think.

12:28

We've had a lot of conversations

12:30

recently in terms of meditation and

12:32

distraction, just in general, you know,

12:34

distractions of, you know, focusing in

12:36

on work, meditation with, you know,

12:38

training your brain and, you know,

12:40

having a thought and then having

12:42

a thought and then letting it

12:44

go and then using that to

12:46

your advantage. And I couldn't help

12:48

but think that some of the

12:50

listening skills that you're talking about

12:53

in this book are basically staying

12:55

present. in the conversation and not

12:57

just, you know, again, waiting for

12:59

your chance to speak or waiting

13:01

for the person to finish speaking.

13:03

And I wonder if you can

13:05

speak to either of those things.

13:07

The meditation practices and help with

13:09

that or distractions, you know, in

13:11

terms of, you know, we were

13:13

distracted before social media and tech,

13:15

but they definitely became an enabler.

13:17

Yeah, and, you know, it's very

13:19

hard to listen if you are

13:22

distracted. Those two things don't go.

13:24

together if your mind is elsewhere

13:26

you cannot hear what the person

13:28

in front of you is saying.

13:30

And so there are mindfulness techniques

13:32

to help you stay present. I

13:34

think part of that is, you

13:36

know, when a thought comes up

13:38

in conversation as it often does,

13:40

you know, someone's speaking to you

13:42

and you're trying to listen and

13:44

maybe it sparks. an idea where

13:46

that's really cool I want to

13:48

follow up on this later or

13:51

I want to think more about

13:53

this or oh that's interesting I

13:55

want to ask this question or

13:57

oh I'm having a strong reaction

13:59

to what's being said or just

14:01

you know your thoughts are going

14:03

elsewhere as they are want to

14:05

do, you know, and you're thinking

14:07

about your grocery list or how

14:09

it's getting late or, you know,

14:11

how your body's tired because you've

14:13

been sitting in a chair and,

14:15

you know, looking at Zoom all

14:17

day, whatever it may be, I

14:19

think one thing you can do

14:22

is just acknowledge that, listen to

14:24

that thought and say, okay. that's

14:26

my body trying to give me

14:28

a message or that's my anxiety

14:30

speaking or you know that's those

14:32

are my thoughts and they're starting

14:34

to run the show and just

14:36

sort of labeling it for yourself

14:38

and returning back to the present

14:40

it's the same kind of thing

14:42

that you would do if you

14:44

were meditating which is you're trying

14:46

to be still and you're trying

14:48

to be present but those thoughts

14:51

still enter and you just acknowledge

14:53

them you kind of say hi

14:55

and you let them go on

14:57

their way. without beating yourself up

14:59

too much about it because then

15:01

you're going down a whole different

15:03

path and still not, you know,

15:05

staying present. So just acknowledging them

15:07

and coming back to the present

15:09

can be one thing that when

15:11

you're in a conversation can be

15:13

very helpful. Is there any merit

15:15

to if you recognize that you're

15:17

distracted and you want to acknowledge

15:19

it and continue to bring your

15:22

attention back to the conversation? Is

15:24

there any benefit to reaching out

15:26

to the other person and saying

15:28

and admitting? Hey, I am distracted.

15:30

I am so sorry and seeing

15:32

what the options are and just

15:34

reconfirming I really want to Talk

15:36

with you. I am I am

15:38

trying to listen. I'm having a

15:40

hard time because of such and

15:42

such and maybe not make excuses

15:44

But just having that vulnerability with

15:46

the other person add any kind

15:48

of benefit or is it just

15:51

okay? Let's try this again after

15:53

a few you know, maybe maybe

15:55

the conversation ends And you double

15:57

check, okay, did I get everything

15:59

out of that conversation I was

16:01

supposed to? Did they say it?

16:03

Let me reconfirm they said what

16:05

they said. But yeah, is there

16:07

any benefit to being vulnerable like

16:09

that? Absolutely. I think when you

16:11

can let someone else in on

16:13

what you're experiencing, it invites them.

16:15

to do the same, they might

16:17

say, oh, me too, you know.

16:20

Probably. Right. But they may also

16:22

just appreciate knowing that you want

16:24

to be there and that you

16:26

know that something is getting in

16:28

the way. The one thing I

16:30

would say is you probably don't

16:32

want to make a habit of

16:34

being that person who is always

16:36

distracted in conversation. So it loses

16:38

its effectiveness if every time you

16:40

sit down with, you know, that

16:42

individual. you at some point say

16:44

I'm sorry I'm really distracted right

16:46

then it's just they might no

16:48

longer take that as you know

16:51

oh there's trust here and you're

16:53

telling me how you're experiencing this

16:55

moment you want to listen they

16:57

might just start to take that

16:59

as lip service of like okay

17:01

well this person doesn't really isn't

17:03

invested enough because every time we

17:05

sit down they mentioned they're distracted

17:07

so I would say you know

17:09

gauge the relationship and also their

17:11

frequency in which it makes sense

17:13

to share this kind of information.

17:15

but certainly can create more openness

17:17

and just reiterate that you really

17:20

are there for them and you're

17:22

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17:24

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17:26

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only other thing I would say

19:01

is you can also think about

19:03

this up front. So you can,

19:05

you know, reflect on what are

19:07

the things that enable you to

19:09

stay present, what are the things

19:11

that prevent you from staying present,

19:13

and can you design an experience

19:15

for yourself and the other person

19:17

that will allow you to do

19:20

that? So, for example, knowing whether

19:22

you're a morning person or a

19:24

night owl, knowing whether you can

19:26

handle three deep conversations in a

19:28

day or one, knowing whether you're

19:30

fine to skip breakfast because you've

19:32

been skipping it your whole life

19:34

and it really doesn't affect you,

19:36

or you can't take that meeting

19:38

without having something in your stomach

19:40

because you will be so distracted

19:42

by how hungry you are that

19:44

you can't hear anything, right? So

19:46

there are things that we can

19:49

do with some reflection about how

19:51

we show up in conversation and

19:53

what enables us to be present.

19:55

and then design. the conversation in

19:57

support of those things. Yeah, it

19:59

sounds like there's a lot of

20:01

timetable and again, going back to

20:03

self-awareness, there's a lot of self-awareness

20:05

on our part that we can

20:07

do in terms of priming ourselves

20:09

to be better when we're in

20:11

listening mode. Some of this stuff

20:13

is stuff we've talked about on

20:15

the show before. You know, hey,

20:18

you don't want to have that

20:20

meeting at 3 o'clock in the

20:22

afternoon because that's a time where

20:24

you're going to be more tired.

20:26

That's more admin time. You know,

20:28

try to make sure your calendar

20:30

is blocked out then so people

20:32

can't choose to have a conversation

20:34

with you at that point. There

20:36

are still going to be exceptions

20:38

to the rule where you will

20:40

have to move things and change

20:42

things. I wonder then, you know,

20:44

what's an emergency kind of a

20:46

situation there? Say we know we're

20:49

going to have a tough conversation

20:51

and we don't really have control

20:53

over the where and the when.

20:55

How can we prepare for that?

20:57

I think if you don't have

20:59

control necessarily over the where or

21:01

the when, what I would say

21:03

is there's probably a small, something

21:05

very small that you can do

21:07

to better set yourself up for

21:09

success and I like to recommend

21:11

taking... 60 seconds for yourself, just

21:13

a minute, you know, before you

21:15

log into that meeting or before

21:18

you walk over to your next

21:20

appointment, just 60 seconds of silence

21:22

of clearing your head, of regrouping,

21:24

can be very helpful to sort

21:26

of reset before you go into

21:28

those conversations. Yeah, being able to,

21:30

you know, collect yourself in other

21:32

words beforehand. Exactly. Yeah. That's good.

21:34

I mean, here's the thing, we've

21:36

talked around it for a little

21:38

bit here, but what are some

21:40

of these best ways, you know,

21:42

maybe it's not an emergency. How

21:44

can we get started with listening

21:47

better? I think this feels like

21:49

it might be either beneath some

21:51

people, like, oh, it's just listening,

21:53

to others, it's like, oh, this

21:55

is daunting, I've got to change

21:57

the way I do everything. I

21:59

want to, you know, maybe meet

22:01

in the middle and say, is

22:03

there some, steps that we can

22:05

see, oh wow, that really works,

22:07

you know, quick wins when it

22:09

comes to listening better. Yeah, so

22:11

the first thing I would say

22:13

is thinking about what are the

22:15

qualities that you bring into conversation

22:18

and are they conducive to listening?

22:20

So we talked a little bit

22:22

about default listening modes and certainly

22:24

reflecting on what your default is

22:26

part of that. But the other

22:28

thing to think about are these

22:30

three qualities that I call a

22:32

listening mindset. And so that's empathy,

22:34

humility, and curiosity. And when we

22:36

bring those into conversations, we're able

22:38

to listen much more deeply and

22:40

take the conversation to a much

22:42

more meaningful place. So if we

22:44

take starting with humility, that's really

22:47

approaching the conversation less from the

22:49

position of I am an expert

22:51

in a topic or field or

22:53

I know what's coming next or

22:55

I have an assumption about how

22:57

this is going to go. or

22:59

a strong opinion to becoming a

23:01

student of the other person and

23:03

really being open to learning from

23:05

them and letting them be the

23:07

expert in their experience and teaching

23:09

us about that, which I think

23:11

is not necessarily the mindset that

23:13

many of us come into conversation

23:15

with. It's actually the opposite of

23:18

how many of us tend to

23:20

show up and so that is

23:22

a first and very important shift.

23:24

when you're able to do that

23:26

you open the way for the

23:28

other person to share more authentically

23:30

and from there you can bring

23:32

curiosity in and curiosity is going

23:34

to be the quality that allows

23:36

the conversation to go deeper. So

23:38

for a lot of us it's

23:40

pretty easy for us to be

23:42

curious about topics that we're naturally

23:44

interested in. We want to know

23:47

more but it can be harder

23:49

to be curious about areas that

23:51

we kind of already know about

23:53

ourselves like okay that's sports not

23:55

interested in that or that's like

23:57

finance I don't want to go

23:59

there. Whatever it is, everybody has

24:01

their version of. There are certain

24:03

just areas that we're just not

24:05

naturally drawn to. But if you

24:07

can take the approach or the

24:09

mindset that there is always more

24:11

to learn, even if the topic

24:13

is not one that you're naturally

24:16

interested in, that's going to help

24:18

the conversation go deeper. Because even

24:20

if I don't care about sports,

24:22

I can care about why does

24:24

this other person care so much

24:26

about sports? What does this mean

24:28

about them? How did this impact

24:30

the impact the choices they've made.

24:32

Why do they want to share

24:34

this story with me? What is

24:36

motivating this, right? Those are all

24:38

things that I can get curious

24:40

about and use that to stay

24:42

engaged in the conversation. And then

24:44

empathy is really trying to understand

24:47

the other person's experience. And it

24:49

doesn't mean that we need to

24:51

share exactly in that experience. It

24:53

doesn't mean that if you've experienced

24:55

the loss of a parent, I

24:57

need to experience that too in

24:59

order to empathize. It means that

25:01

I need to tap into moments

25:03

where I felt grief in my

25:05

life, even if it's not that

25:07

exact scenario. And when you're able

25:09

to go to that emotional level,

25:11

we can all relate to feeling

25:13

shame, fear, you know, joy, any

25:16

of those range of emotions. And

25:18

that also allows us to again

25:20

connect on a different level than

25:22

we would otherwise and that we

25:24

normally do. So I think as

25:26

a starting point, remembering that those

25:28

three qualities exist and trying our

25:30

best to bring them into conversation,

25:32

sometimes, you know, it will be

25:34

easier to dial up that curiosity

25:36

than others, but trying to bring

25:38

those three in can really just

25:40

shift the tenor of the conversation.

25:42

I love that because it almost

25:45

shifts from You know, like so

25:47

for example, I'll give an example.

25:49

You know, I love my wife

25:51

to death and yet there are

25:53

times where she's talking and I

25:55

have a very hard time paying

25:57

attention. because what she's talking about,

25:59

specifically the topic she's talking about,

26:01

isn't something that I necessarily care

26:03

about, but flipping that and realizing,

26:05

well it's not about what she's

26:07

talking about, it's about that I

26:09

care about the person that's talking,

26:11

and so get a little more

26:13

curious or especially have more empathy

26:16

in terms of that person, and

26:18

that's with somebody that's, you know,

26:20

very close to me. It should

26:22

be easiest to do with that

26:24

person, then let alone, you know,

26:26

a co-worker, or even a stranger.

26:28

when we're talking to them, but

26:30

that's where maybe more of the

26:32

curiosity comes in in terms of

26:34

there's less familiarity so we can

26:36

say, well, I don't know who

26:38

you are as a person. Let

26:40

me really dial up that curiosity

26:42

and start to ask questions of,

26:45

you know, more of interest and

26:47

draw more out of them that

26:49

way. Yeah, and I think it's

26:51

interesting, you know, I think there's

26:53

a way in which actually it

26:55

might be harder to express these

26:57

qualities with people we know really

26:59

well. because we already feel we

27:01

know them pretty well or you

27:03

know maybe your wife has brought

27:05

up that topic before and so

27:07

you kind of already know oh

27:09

yeah she wants to talk about

27:11

this which I'm not really interested

27:13

in and so it can be

27:16

easy to fall into these patterns

27:18

and we just have so much

27:20

more history with that person or

27:22

with our family that you know

27:24

our emotions can really come to

27:26

the surface or or prevent us

27:28

from listening in a different way.

27:30

And so I would say that

27:32

each of these relationships, whether they're

27:34

someone we know really well or

27:36

someone we're meeting for the first

27:38

time, they have their own challenges

27:40

in terms of how we can,

27:42

you know, apply these lessons and

27:45

these qualities in conversation. But when

27:47

we're able to get past again

27:49

ourselves, right, whether we know the

27:51

person well or not, when we're

27:53

able to. get out of our

27:55

own experience and really understand the

27:57

other person's experience, that's where their

27:59

magic happens. Yeah, I think one

28:01

of the other unconscious things that

28:03

we do when we're listening and

28:05

even when we're speaking has to

28:07

do, and this goes back to

28:09

the communication theory I was talking

28:11

about earlier, is our body language

28:14

and how that expresses what we

28:16

are, you know, if we're even

28:18

actively listening as well as there's

28:20

other social cues that come along

28:22

with that, how can we use

28:24

our body language to shift our

28:26

listening into a better place? Yeah,

28:28

I'm glad you brought that up

28:30

because I think body language can

28:32

be useful in two ways, the

28:34

first in terms of understanding. interpreting

28:36

cues that your conversation partner may

28:38

be giving you. And then also

28:40

what I think you're mentioning is

28:42

tuning into our own body and

28:45

realizing what we're experiencing in the

28:47

moment and how we can like

28:49

literally make ourselves more receptive to

28:51

what the other person is saying.

28:53

And so for both of those,

28:55

it's thinking about things like your

28:57

posture how closed or open you

28:59

are like literally like you want

29:01

to come in with an open

29:03

mind like don't cross your arms

29:05

over your chest that's a closed

29:07

position right so you're opening yourself

29:09

up to the other person you

29:11

know you're relaxing your body you're

29:14

you're not clenching this which I

29:16

think sometimes we we may do

29:18

in frustration it's taking deep breaths

29:20

it's things like that it's also

29:22

eye contact it's also eye contact

29:24

it's also catching yourself. Are you

29:26

fully facing the person or, you

29:28

know, are your feet pointing away

29:30

because you really do want to

29:32

go? Your feet tend to be

29:34

a pretty revealing indicator. The same

29:36

is true if you're talking with

29:38

someone else. If you kind of

29:40

glance at where their feet are,

29:42

if they're facing you, probably they

29:45

are fully engaged. But if they're

29:47

shifted to the side, even if

29:49

their torso is facing you, that

29:51

may be a sign that They're

29:53

ready to bolt, but they're either

29:55

too polite to say so, or

29:57

they haven't figured out how to

29:59

say they need to leave the

30:01

conversation. So you're looking for those

30:03

kinds of cues, both in your

30:05

own body. what are you experiencing

30:07

and in others? And I think

30:09

the reason that I thought of

30:11

that to bring that up was

30:14

that familiarity with people that we

30:16

already have a lot of contact

30:18

with or we have a deeper

30:20

relationship with already, when we enter

30:22

into a conversation with them, we're

30:24

probably entering into a more relaxed.

30:26

position and may potentially be betraying

30:28

our communication by unconsciously or physically

30:30

representing ourselves as not listening. So

30:32

they, and they cue into that.

30:34

And so we're setting ourselves up

30:36

for, well, I didn't mean it,

30:38

I just, I'm familiar with you,

30:40

I like you, I love you,

30:43

but they see it as you're

30:45

not really listening because we are

30:47

so familiar that has become mundane

30:49

instead of, you know, exciting and

30:51

curious and engaging with conversation. Yeah,

30:53

and for moments like that, if

30:55

I could choose one thing to

30:57

focus on, you know, so that

30:59

folks don't feel like, oh man,

31:01

I can't relax on my couch,

31:03

you know, when I'm having a

31:05

conversation, you can. The thing that

31:07

I would focus on is eye

31:09

contact, because that's really the thing

31:11

that tells someone, like, I'm here,

31:14

I'm here for you. Well that's

31:16

you know that's almost another check

31:18

of checking yourself or having a

31:20

moment you know the 60 seconds

31:22

or whatever before entering into the

31:24

conversation I don't think anybody would

31:26

be thinking you were rude if

31:28

as you were saying hey can

31:30

we talk or as they were

31:32

saying to you hey can we

31:34

talk and I say yes let

31:36

me put my phone and do

31:38

not disturb mode real quick and

31:40

then put it away you know

31:43

that kind of it's not a

31:45

signal of my phone's more important

31:47

it's a signal of yes let

31:49

me make sure I'm not distracted

31:51

and then okay go ahead you

31:53

know and then hone in and

31:55

be physically mentally emotionally and other

31:57

things I could insert here present

31:59

yeah and I think again just

32:01

like letting the other person in

32:03

on that by doing that you're

32:05

really, you're literally telling them, like,

32:07

I'm here for you. So you're,

32:09

you're engaging with eye contact and

32:12

all these other cues, but you're

32:14

also saying, this is important to

32:16

me. That's why I'm putting my

32:18

phone away. And I do think

32:20

that, you know, it's no surprise.

32:22

We all know this devices are

32:24

a huge culprit of distracting us

32:26

in conversation, but also in decreasing

32:28

our empathy. in conversation just in

32:30

our line of sight, doesn't even

32:32

have to be on, can decrease

32:34

our ability to be empathetic in

32:36

conversation. And so I love the

32:38

like, hey, I want to have

32:40

this conversation, I'm going to turn

32:43

this off, I'm going to put

32:45

it away. Okay, now I'm here

32:47

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33:16

terms apply. Yeah, it eliminates that.

33:18

Something more important may come up

33:20

and I want to be ready

33:22

to address that instead of you

33:24

at any moment. And it switches

33:26

how you engage because you're no

33:28

longer in this sort of anxious,

33:30

possibly reactive mode because part of

33:32

you is waiting for the next

33:34

ping or notification and it allows

33:36

you to just... stay present and

33:38

lean into the conversation instead of

33:40

kind of tentatively multitasking at the

33:43

same time. What about when we

33:45

know we are going to be

33:47

having, or even if we don't,

33:49

if it's a surprise, but we're

33:51

going to have those uncomfortable conversations.

33:53

It's not something we're going into

33:55

looking forward to it, and we've

33:57

got bundled into it either emotions

33:59

on either side or both, and

34:01

even disagreements that we're already aware

34:03

of, and it's uncomfortable but necessary.

34:05

How can we go in and

34:07

make sure we maintain proper listening

34:09

techniques in those situations? So this

34:12

is tough, but I think important.

34:14

There are going to be those

34:16

conversations, but feel risky for that

34:18

reason and may make us uncomfortable.

34:20

I think the first thing, if

34:22

this is something that you know,

34:24

okay, I have to bridge this

34:26

topic with so and so, I'm

34:28

not excited about it. I think

34:30

the first thing is allowing everybody

34:32

to opt in. So you may

34:34

have. something that you want to

34:36

discuss that feels like a thorny

34:38

issue. You don't want to blindside

34:41

the other person. So giving them

34:43

a chance and saying, hey, I

34:45

know this probably isn't going to

34:47

be a fun conversation, but I

34:49

think it's really important that we

34:51

talk about X. Would you be

34:53

up for that? You know, can

34:55

we talk about this sometime soon

34:57

or or whenever, like schedule something?

34:59

But just making sure that everybody

35:01

is on the same page as

35:03

a first step. The other is

35:05

when you're in that conversation, I

35:07

think it's absolutely fair to say

35:09

and acknowledge that it's a difficult

35:12

conversation. And even to provide some

35:14

reassurance, both for yourself and the

35:16

other person and say, you know,

35:18

this conversation might get uncomfortable, but

35:20

I want you to know that

35:22

my intention here is not to

35:24

provoke or push you too far

35:26

in any way. My intention here

35:28

is really too. understand you better

35:30

and understand your perspective better. But

35:32

again, you're sort of, you're naming

35:34

it, right, which is, which is

35:36

an exercise we talked about earlier,

35:38

which is something that psychologists talk

35:41

about as a way of handling

35:43

emotions. You name what is happening

35:45

and the act of naming it

35:47

can diffuse some of the tension

35:49

and allow you to focus again.

35:51

So I think that's another important

35:53

piece. The other is, especially in

35:55

difficult conversations, really important to go

35:57

back to humility and remember that

35:59

you're not trying to convince someone

36:01

of your perspective or win an

36:03

argument or get them over to

36:05

your side of the table. because

36:07

when we take that approach we

36:10

tend to push the other person

36:12

away, but really to generate understanding

36:14

and and again empathy for the

36:16

other person. And then the very

36:18

last thing I'll say is that

36:20

if a boundary has been crossed

36:22

for you or for the other

36:24

person, it is perfectly reasonable to

36:26

pause the conversation to say, hey,

36:28

I'm noticing that my emotions are

36:30

really getting the best of me

36:32

or something you said really just

36:34

didn't land well with me and

36:36

I'm having trouble focusing or I

36:38

don't think I can keep, you

36:41

know, having a productive conversation based

36:43

on how I'm feeling right now,

36:45

whatever version of that feels true,

36:47

it's perfectly acceptable to say that

36:49

and say, this conversation still means

36:51

a lot to me, but I

36:53

can't see it through in this

36:55

way. Can we pause and come

36:57

back to this tomorrow? Or I

36:59

need to go take like a

37:01

five-minute walk and come back and

37:03

come back, whatever it is. A

37:05

difficult conversation doesn't mean that each

37:07

of you has to be pushed

37:10

to your limits. So it's important

37:12

to be aware of when you

37:14

feel like you're getting close to

37:16

that or when the other person

37:18

is getting close to that and

37:20

respect those boundaries as well. Yeah.

37:22

I think the other question I

37:24

have is not just in difficult

37:26

situations or conversations. What are some

37:28

of those biggest listening mistakes that

37:30

people make in general? And we've

37:32

addressed some of them. So one

37:34

of the most common listening mistakes

37:36

I think is that we think

37:38

we're listening when we're really not.

37:41

So we think we're there with

37:43

the other person, but we're winding

37:45

up a response is a very

37:47

common thing where someone says something

37:49

and then we know exactly what

37:51

we want to say. And some

37:53

of us make that really clear

37:55

because we interrupt. So that thought

37:57

just comes out of our mouth.

37:59

We don't even wait. Some of

38:01

us wait and that waiting we

38:03

think we're listening, but we're really

38:05

waiting. And we're holding on to

38:07

what we have to say. And

38:10

so we're winding up instead of.

38:12

just winding down and hearing what

38:14

the other person has to say.

38:16

And the truth is that most

38:18

times when we have something to

38:20

say that is really important, it

38:22

will probably come back to us,

38:24

especially if there is an emotional

38:26

resonance. We don't tend to forget

38:28

those kinds of things. So we

38:30

actually don't need to work that

38:32

hard to hold on to that

38:34

idea and quickly jump in because

38:36

it's likely that it will naturally

38:39

come back. And so we can.

38:41

let go of it for a

38:43

little bit and stay present and

38:45

be there with that other person.

38:47

But I would say that's probably

38:49

one of the most common listening

38:51

mistakes is we think we're listening

38:53

when we're really waiting and we're

38:55

kind of perfecting our own response.

38:57

Yeah, man. There's so much more

38:59

in the book in terms of

39:01

practical information, but I also want

39:03

to say for those people that

39:05

really geek out over I don't

39:07

want to say theoretical. Let's put

39:10

it this way, deeply researched facts.

39:12

Let's go that way, which doesn't

39:14

have to go against practical. It

39:16

actually, it aids in that. But

39:18

for people that want to pick

39:20

this up, the book is called

39:22

Listen Like You Mean It, and

39:24

then I love the subtitle, Reclaiming

39:26

the Lost Art of True Connection.

39:28

This really makes me feel like

39:30

warm and tingly in my brain

39:32

and my heart at the same

39:34

time if I can give that

39:36

compliment. So yeah, I really love

39:39

this is going to be. Something

39:41

that I end up sharing with

39:43

a number of people moving forward,

39:45

but I would love to point

39:47

people to where they can maybe

39:49

find out more about you, find

39:51

out more about the book. So

39:53

where's a great place for that?

39:55

Yes, well, thank you. Thank you

39:57

for all the kind words. And

39:59

I love the way that you

40:01

described the book and all the

40:03

warm fuzzies there. So if folks

40:05

are interested, they can go to

40:08

my website, which is he mena

40:10

vangua.com/listen like you mean it. And

40:12

you can find more about the

40:14

book there. And if you're interested

40:16

in more about me, I have

40:18

a newsletter, which is also linked

40:20

from my website. And I'm on

40:22

social and Twitter and Instagram. and

40:24

all that good stuff. And I

40:26

like to say I have pretty

40:28

good SEO, so if you can

40:30

spell my first and last name,

40:32

you'll probably find me. Yes, that's

40:34

true. Awesome. Well, this has been

40:36

great, and it's been fun discussing

40:39

this with you. I would urge

40:41

everybody to take a deeper look

40:43

at listening and communicating, and especially

40:45

this book. So, Jimenna, thank you

40:47

so much for being here. Thanks

40:49

for talking. Oh, thank you so

40:51

much for the great conversation. I

40:53

appreciate it. Well,

40:56

that's another podcast crossed off your

40:58

listening to-do list. I hope that

41:00

you enjoyed revisiting this conversation with

41:02

Jimena, then Gochea. Like I said,

41:04

she's got an upcoming episode that

41:06

I've already recorded. All about her

41:08

new book, The Life Audit, a

41:10

step-by-step guide to discovering your goals

41:12

and building the life you want.

41:14

I know you're gonna love it.

41:17

I had a great time talking

41:19

with her about that and the

41:21

accompanying journal that goes along with

41:23

it. of sharing it with somebody

41:25

that you know needs to hear

41:27

it. Hit that share button wherever

41:29

you're listening to this on the

41:31

web at beyond the todo list.com

41:33

or over in your podcast player

41:35

app of choice. Thank you so

41:37

much for sharing. Thanks again for

41:39

listening and I'll see you next

41:41

episode. So,

42:19

Outro Music

43:04

later.