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think. With Capella University, with more

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at capella .edu. at Capella. ED Welcome

1:18

back to Dark Poutine. I am

1:21

Mike Brown. And I am Matthew

1:23

Stockton. You are. How are things

1:25

this week, Matthew? I'm feeling good

1:27

today, Mike. You're feeling good. That's

1:29

good. That's good. I'm feeling good

1:32

today. It's been a long road,

1:34

but I'm feeling good. And, you

1:36

know, a little bit of pain,

1:38

like somebody, a friend of mine,

1:40

when I told her what my

1:43

surgery was like, she's like, so

1:45

it was like you had five

1:47

cesareans across your abdomen. Yeah, right.

1:49

So that was painful, but I'm

1:51

feeling good and positive today. That's

1:53

a good thing. Yeah, let's get

1:55

into it. The views, information and

1:57

opinions. expressed during the Dark Poutine

1:59

podcast are solely those of the

2:01

producer and do not necessarily represent

2:03

those of curious cast its affiliate

2:05

Global News nor their parent company

2:07

chorus entertainment Dark Poutine is not

2:09

for the faint of heart or

2:11

squeamish listener discretion is strongly advised

2:14

We're not experts on the topics

2:16

we present, nor are we journalists.

2:18

We're two ordinary Canadian schmucks chatting

2:20

about crime and the dark side

2:22

of history. Let's get to it.

2:24

Put on your toke, grab yourself

2:26

a double-double end in a nimo

2:28

bar, it's time to scarf down

2:30

some dark poutine. You are responsible

2:32

for obtaining and maintaining at your

2:34

own cost all equipment needed to

2:36

listen to dark poutine. Dark poutine

2:38

can be addictive, side effects may

2:40

include, but not be limited to

2:42

you, pausing in questioning the system,

2:44

elevated heart rate, pondering humanity. Odd

2:46

looks from colleagues as he laughed

2:48

out at work. Family members, not

2:50

into true crime, worrying about you.

2:52

Positive side effects may include some

2:54

perspectives and opinions that you disagree

2:56

with, as well as some wiltness

2:58

and empathy. If you don't think

3:00

dark poutine is for you, consult

3:02

your doctor immediately. In

3:42

this episode, we're exploring a

3:44

phenomenon that blurs the line

3:46

between consciousness and culpability, homicidal

3:48

somnambulism. Can a person be

3:50

held responsible for murder if

3:52

they commit the act while

3:54

sleepwalking? We'll examine two haunting

3:56

cases that have grapples. with

3:58

this very question. First, we'll

4:00

unravel the infamous story of

4:02

Kenneth Parks, who in 1987

4:04

drove 23 kilometers from his

4:06

home in Pickering to Scarborough,

4:08

Ontario, where he brutally attacked

4:10

his in-laws, Dennis and Barbara

4:12

Woods, killing his mother-in-law. Then

4:14

we'll turn our attention to

4:16

the lesser known case of

4:18

Clayton John Vickburg, who attempted

4:20

to kill his friend Hugh

4:22

Heglin in Victoria BC in

4:24

1996 in a state of

4:26

automatism. These cases challenge our

4:28

understanding of criminal intent and

4:30

raise unsettling questions about the

4:33

nature of consciousness itself. This

4:35

is Dark Boutine episode 355,

4:37

Homicidal Somnambulism. Are you a

4:39

murderer if you kill in

4:41

your sleep? As someone who

4:43

suffers from sleep apnea, I

4:45

have a real fascination with

4:47

sleep dreams and parasomnias. Parasomnia

4:49

is a fascinating category of

4:51

sleep disorders that encompasses a

4:53

wide range of unusual behaviors,

4:55

experiences, and phenomena occurring during

4:57

sleep or in the transitions

4:59

between sleep stages. These disorders

5:01

can manifest in various ways,

5:03

often perplexing individuals and their

5:05

loved ones with strange nocturnal

5:07

activities. Night terrors typically affect

5:09

children and involve sudden awakenings

5:11

accompanied by intense fear screaming

5:13

and physical agitation and physical

5:15

agitation. These episodes can be

5:17

highly distressing for both the

5:19

child and their parents, often

5:21

leaving no memory of the

5:23

event come morning, thankfully. Confucional

5:25

arousals, on the other hand,

5:27

are characterized by disoriented behavior

5:29

upon waking, with individuals appearing

5:31

confused and unresponsive to their

5:33

surroundings. This is why you

5:35

don't wake someone up while

5:37

they're sleepwalking. Rem sleep behavior

5:40

disorder is a particularly intriguing

5:42

parasomnia where the natural paralysis

5:44

that occurs during Rem sleep

5:46

is absent. This allows individuals

5:48

to physically... basically act out

5:50

their dreams, sometimes resulting in

5:52

vigorous and potentially dangerous movements.

5:54

In a similar vein, sleep-related

5:56

eating disorder involves unconscious eating

5:58

during the night, often without

6:00

any recollection of the behavior

6:02

in the morning. Sexsomnia, a

6:04

lesser known parasomnia, involves engaging

6:06

in sexual behaviors during sleep

6:08

ranging from simple fondling to

6:10

full sexual intercourse. This can

6:12

be particularly distressing for both

6:14

the individual and their partner

6:16

as the behavior occurs without

6:18

conscious awareness or consent. Okay,

6:20

so I can attest to

6:22

this, I have done this

6:24

three times. Wow. Yeah, okay.

6:26

Luckily, this is actually why

6:28

I don't sleep with people

6:30

that I wouldn't be willing

6:32

to have sex with. It

6:34

was three times across two

6:36

different boyfriends who we were

6:38

living together and were totally

6:40

up for it. They didn't

6:42

even, they didn't realize I

6:44

was asleep when I started

6:47

it, but I wake up

6:49

in the middle of sex.

6:51

I've done that three times.

6:53

Oh, wow. Yeah, it's weird.

6:55

It's really weird. Yeah, no

6:57

kidding. Sleep paralysis is a

6:59

terrifying experience where individuals find

7:01

themselves unable to move or

7:03

speak upon waking or falling

7:05

asleep. often accompanied by a

7:07

sense of pressure on the

7:09

chest and vivid hallucinations. Exploding

7:11

head syndrome, despite its alarming

7:13

name, is a benign condition

7:15

where people experience loud imagery,

7:17

noises, or a sensation of

7:19

explosion in their heads as

7:21

they transition in or out

7:23

of sleep. I've had this.

7:25

Lastly, sleep-related hallucinations can occur

7:27

at the onset of sleep

7:29

hypnagogic or upon waking. hypnopompic

7:31

involving vivid and often frightening

7:33

sensory experiences that feel incredibly

7:35

real to the individual experiencing

7:37

them. Sleep talking, or somniloquy,

7:39

is a common parasomnia when

7:41

people vocalize during sleep ranging

7:43

from incomprehensible mumbles to coherent

7:45

conversations. I have done this

7:47

many times. According to my

7:49

husband, I do it almost

7:52

every night. Well, according to

7:54

your husband, I don't know

7:56

if he knows whether or

7:58

not I do it, but...

8:00

Oh! Where were you last

8:02

night, Justin? Nowhere? Yeah, that's

8:04

pretty common. It's very common

8:06

for people to mumble and

8:08

say things in their sleep.

8:10

I know I've said, had

8:12

crazy conversations in my sleep,

8:14

in my sleep. One of

8:16

the most well-known and intriguing

8:18

parasomias is somnambulism, commonly known

8:20

as sleepwalking, which involves complex

8:22

behaviors performed during sleep. Imagine

8:24

waking up in the middle

8:26

of the night to find

8:28

your roommate rearranging furniture or

8:30

your partner cooking a complete

8:32

meal in the kitchen, all

8:34

while fast to sleep. I

8:36

can also attest to this.

8:38

It's crazy, right? But like

8:40

I can attest to this,

8:42

I've done that here since

8:44

I've been in this place.

8:46

Oh wow. I woke up

8:48

in the closet once. Shut

8:50

up. Shut up. Oh my.

8:52

You've been out of the

8:54

closet for a long time.

8:56

I know. There I am

8:59

back in the closet. It

9:01

was quite distressing. I've also

9:03

peered in weird places. Me

9:05

too. I also once when

9:07

I was in my late

9:09

teams, I walked into the

9:11

kitchen, my father was getting

9:13

a jug of milk, eats

9:15

Ontario, so you have the

9:17

bags and the jug, right?

9:19

Yep. And... I walked up

9:21

to him and said, you

9:23

can't have that and smash

9:25

the milk out of his

9:27

hand, and it was all

9:29

over the floor. Oh God.

9:31

Yeah. I'm still thinking about

9:33

you in the closet. There's

9:35

not enough room in that

9:37

closet for this personality. I

9:39

can tell you that. You're

9:41

here with Tom Cruise and

9:43

John. and slumber. It occurs

9:45

during the sleep stages of

9:47

non- rapid eye movement, n-ram

9:49

sleep, typically within the first

9:51

third of the night. Sleepwalkers

9:53

may sit up, walk around,

9:55

or even perform complex tasks

9:57

like driving a car, all

9:59

while their conscious mind remains

10:01

in a dream-like state. The

10:03

phenomenon of sleepwalking has captivated

10:06

human imagination for centuries, inspiring

10:08

countless stories and myths. However,

10:10

the reality of somnambulism is

10:12

often more mundane and sometimes

10:14

more bizarre than fiction. One

10:16

of the most intriguing aspects

10:18

of somnambulism is the disconnect

10:20

between the sleepwalkers' actions and

10:22

their awareness. While their eyes

10:24

may be open, sleepwalkers typically

10:26

have a glazed expression and

10:28

dilated pupils. They may respond

10:30

to questions or engage in

10:32

conversations, but their speech is

10:34

often nonsensical or unrelated to

10:36

their surroundings. Upon waking, most

10:38

sleepwalkers have little to no

10:40

memory of their nocturnal adventures.

10:42

Some nambulism isn't just a

10:44

quirky sleep behavior, it can

10:46

have serious consequences. Sleepwalkers may

10:48

injure themselves by tripping or

10:50

falling, and in rare cases

10:52

they might even engage in

10:54

dangerous activities like driving and

10:56

unintentional harm to others, like

10:58

in the case of Kenneth

11:00

Parks. While some nambulism is

11:02

more common in children affecting

11:04

up to 29% of kids

11:06

at some point in their

11:08

lives, it can persist into

11:10

adulthood for some individuals. The

11:13

exact causes of sleepwalking remain

11:15

a mystery, but researchers have

11:17

identified several potential triggers, including

11:19

genetics, sleep deprivation, stress, and

11:21

certain medications. Despite its potential

11:23

dangers, some nambulism often doesn't

11:25

require active treatment, especially in

11:27

children who typically outgrow the

11:29

behavior. However, for those who

11:31

experience frequent or disruptive episodes,

11:33

various treatment options are available

11:35

ranging from improved sleep height.

11:37

gene to medication in severe

11:39

cases. In episode 115 of

11:41

Dark Poutine we covered this

11:43

landmark case of Kenneth Parks

11:45

who during a bout of

11:47

some nambulism killed his mother-in-law.

11:49

I've always wanted to retell

11:51

this story as I've learned

11:53

so much more about parasomniism

11:55

and other sleep disturbances since

11:57

I wrote and researched that

11:59

episode. This extraordinary tale unfolded

12:01

in the suburbs of Toronto

12:03

in 1987, and it continues

12:05

to captivate the minds of

12:07

legal experts, medical professionals, and

12:09

the general public alike. Kenneth

12:11

Parks was a 23-year-old man

12:13

living in Pickering Ontario with

12:15

his wife and infant daughter.

12:18

On the surface, he appeared

12:20

to be a typical young

12:22

father working in the electronics

12:24

trade and navigating the challenges

12:26

of early adulthood. However, beneath

12:28

the facade, Parks was grappling

12:30

with a gambling addiction that

12:32

had spiraled out of control

12:34

leading him down a path

12:36

of financial ruin and deceit.

12:38

Parks's childhood was marked by

12:40

instability. His father abandoned the

12:42

family when he was just

12:44

four, leaving him with a

12:46

distant and difficult relationship with

12:48

both his stepfather and his

12:50

biological father. As a teenager,

12:52

Ken Parks chose to live

12:54

with his grandparents to maintain

12:56

continuity in his education when

12:58

his mother and stepfather decided

13:00

to move. This decision would

13:02

prove significant in shaping his

13:04

future relationships. At the age

13:06

of 21, Ken married and

13:08

soon became a father. Interestingly,

13:10

he developed a particularly close

13:12

bond with his in-laws, especially

13:14

his mother-in-law, who affectionally called

13:16

him her gentle giant. This

13:18

relationship would make the events

13:20

that followed all the more

13:22

shocking and incomprehensible. The summer

13:25

before the tragic event, Park's

13:27

life took a dark turn.

13:29

What began as an innocent

13:31

day at the races with

13:33

friends quickly evolved into a

13:35

full-blown gambling addiction. Within a

13:37

mere five weeks, Ken went

13:39

from placing small bets on

13:41

thoroughbreds to... to wagering hundreds

13:43

of dollars on trotters. He

13:45

first dipped into his family

13:47

savings to cover his mounting

13:49

losses before resorting to embezzlement

13:51

at work. Oof. Yeah, Mike,

13:53

you know, I don't gamble.

13:55

I mean, I buy lottery

13:57

tickets, which is, which is

13:59

a form of gambling, but

14:01

it's just a weekly, like

14:03

I don't go crazy, right?

14:05

And I buy like hospital

14:07

lottery tickets because I also

14:09

like the idea that I'm

14:11

supporting the Children's Hospital or

14:13

the Vancouver Hospital. Yeah, I

14:15

do those too. Those I

14:17

don't gamble because I've known

14:19

family members who had this

14:21

problem. And who knows, maybe

14:23

it passes down through the

14:25

blood, I'm not sure. Well,

14:27

you're talking to a guy

14:29

who had a problem with

14:32

gambling the video lottery machines.

14:34

Really? Oh yeah. Oh yeah,

14:36

I got into trouble actually.

14:38

Oh dude, I don't gamble

14:40

anymore. No, no, and I've

14:42

never done it and because

14:44

I just, I just, I

14:46

just, I was just so

14:48

aware because of others that

14:50

I've known, just so aware

14:52

of it. Sometimes people can,

14:54

who are a bad example,

14:56

can actually teach you something

14:58

before I do it yourself.

15:00

Yep, right? I was in

15:02

the middle of other addictions

15:04

at the time, so. It

15:06

just kind of all went

15:08

hand in hand for me.

15:10

And it's probably a good

15:12

thing that I didn't do

15:14

it because I live beside

15:16

the casino. Mike, literally the

15:18

casino, like if you go

15:20

kitty corner from my one

15:22

building, it's right there. The

15:24

stress of hiding his addiction

15:26

and financial troubles from his

15:28

wife took a severe toll

15:30

on their marriage. Parks found

15:32

himself caught in a web

15:34

of lies struggling to maintain

15:36

appearances at home and at

15:39

work. The pressure began to

15:41

manifest physically causing sleep disturbances

15:43

and headaches. Parks developed a

15:45

delayed sleep phase pattern, often

15:47

not falling asleep until the

15:49

early hours of the morning.

15:51

In March 1987, Parks's embezzlement

15:53

was discovered, leading to his

15:55

termination from work and theft

15:57

charges. Although his employer did

15:59

not intend... to pursue criminal

16:01

charges, the revelation sent shockwaves

16:03

through Parks's life. The family's

16:05

house was put up for

16:07

sale to cover the debt,

16:09

and Parks found himself withdrawing

16:11

from his in-laws out of

16:13

embarrassment and guilt. Despite a

16:15

brief attempt to quit gambling,

16:17

Park soon relapsed. His situation

16:19

grew increasingly desperate as he

16:21

forged his wife's signature to

16:23

obtain funds. On May 20,

16:25

1987, Ken Parks went to

16:27

his first meeting of a

16:29

self-help group that deals with

16:31

gambling, a step that seemed

16:33

to indicate a desire to

16:35

confront his problems. Plans were

16:37

made to confess his gambling

16:39

addiction and financial troubles to

16:41

both his grandmother and his

16:43

in-laws over the upcoming weekend.

16:46

The night of May 27,

16:48

1987, would prove to be

16:50

a turning point in Ken

16:52

Parks's life. He spent the

16:54

day playing rugby with friends,

16:56

suffering a mild blow to

16:58

his temple during the game.

17:00

That evening, after putting his

17:02

daughter to bed, he and

17:04

his wife watched Saturday Night

17:06

Live. Dennis Hopper was the

17:08

host and Roy Orbison was

17:10

the musical guest performing his

17:12

hits Crying, Oh Pretty Woman

17:14

and In Dreams. Ken Parks

17:16

fell asleep on the couch

17:18

around 1.30 a.m. What happened

17:20

next would become the subject

17:22

of intense scrutiny and debate.

17:24

Parks claims that his next

17:26

memory after falling asleep was

17:28

of looking down at his

17:30

mother-in-law's face. her eyes and

17:32

mouth open with a frightened

17:34

expression. In the meantime, Parks

17:36

had apparently driven 23 kilometers

17:38

to his in-law's home, entered

17:40

the house, attacked his father-in-law

17:42

Dennis Woods, and brutally stabbed

17:44

his mother-in-law Barbara Woods to

17:46

death. Parks's recollection of the

17:48

events following this moment was

17:51

patchy at best. He remembered

17:53

hearing his in-law's younger children

17:55

yelling upstairs, attempting to reassure

17:57

them, and then finding himself

17:59

in his car with a

18:01

knife in his hands. In

18:03

a days he drove to

18:05

a nearby... police station where

18:07

he uttered the chilling words,

18:09

quote, I think I have

18:11

killed some people, my hands,

18:13

end quote. It was only

18:15

at this point that Parks

18:17

became aware of the severe

18:19

injuries to his hands, which

18:21

included multiple severed flexor tendons.

18:23

The police investigation revealed a

18:25

horrifying scene at the in-law's

18:27

home. Barbara Woods had been

18:29

stabbed five times in the

18:31

chest and neck and beaten

18:33

with a blunt instrument fracturing

18:35

her skull. Dennis had been

18:37

strangled unconscious but survived the

18:39

attack. The family was horrified.

18:41

How could Ken have done

18:43

such a thing? As the

18:45

legal process began, medical professionals

18:47

were called to assess Ken

18:49

Parks's mental state and determine

18:51

what could have led to

18:53

such a violent act from

18:55

a man with no history

18:58

of aggression. The initial psychiatric

19:00

assessment diagnosed Parks with pathological

19:02

gambling, psychogenic amnesia, and depression,

19:04

but found no evidence of

19:06

psychosis. Further medical investigations were

19:08

conducted to explore various possibilities,

19:10

including an acute psychotic episode,

19:12

drug-related aggression, volitional homicide with

19:14

stress-induced amnesia, and complex partial

19:16

epileptic seizures. However these potential

19:18

explanations were systematically ruled out

19:20

through extensive testing and examinations.

19:22

Multiple psychiatrists evaluated parks all

19:24

finding evidence of depression and

19:26

anxiety, but no signs of

19:28

dissociative features, thought disorders, delusions,

19:30

hallucinations, or other indications of

19:32

psychosis. There was no history

19:34

of problems with controlling aggression

19:36

or any psychiatric dissociative states.

19:38

Psychological assessments revealed a man

19:40

in deep emotional turmoil bewildered

19:42

and anxious about his situation.

19:44

Tests showed extremely high levels

19:46

of depression and hopelessness consistent

19:48

with an acute state of

19:50

emotional distress. Parks's personality profile

19:52

indicated feelings of inadequacy, competence

19:54

and a tendency toward social

19:56

isolation and withdrawal. As the

19:58

investigation progressed, attention turned to

20:00

the possibility of a sleep

20:02

disorder being involved in the

20:05

incident. Parks had a history

20:07

of sleepwalking, sleep talking, and

20:09

bedwetting as a child and

20:11

was known to be a

20:13

very deep sleeper who was

20:15

difficult to awaken. His family

20:17

history revealed a high frequency

20:19

of various parasomias, including sleepwalking,

20:21

sleep talking, and uresis. bedwitting,

20:23

and night terrors. Two overnight

20:25

polysomnograms were conducted while parks

20:27

was in detention. These sleep

20:29

studies revealed some abnormalities in

20:31

his sleep architecture, including high

20:33

amounts of slow wave sleep,

20:35

including stage shifts, and direct

20:37

transitions from slow wave sleep

20:39

to full wakefulness. However, no

20:41

evidence of other sleep disorders

20:43

such as sleep apnea, periodic

20:45

leg movements, or REM sleep

20:47

behavior disorder was found. Based

20:49

on the absence of any

20:51

apparent motive, the lack of

20:53

evidence for other medical causes,

20:55

and the strong lab evidence

20:57

supporting somnambulism, the medical team

20:59

concluded that the assault and

21:01

homicide most likely occurred during

21:03

an episode of sleepwalking. His

21:05

legal defense argued that Ken

21:07

Parks had committed homicide during

21:09

a state of non-insane automatism

21:12

as part of a presumed

21:14

episode of somnambulism. They contended

21:16

that Ken Parks did not

21:18

have any pre-existing disease of

21:20

the mind within the meaning

21:22

of the Canadian Criminal Code

21:24

and that the combination of

21:26

factors that led to this

21:28

incident was extremely unlikely to

21:30

occur again. On May 25th

21:32

1988, after careful consideration of

21:34

the evidence presented, the jury

21:36

rendered a verdict of not

21:38

guilty. Parks was also subsequently

21:40

acquitted of the attempted murder

21:42

of his father-in-law. The Crown

21:44

Attorney appealed the trial judge's

21:46

determination that some nambulism was

21:48

a form of non-insane appeal

21:50

and the Supreme Court of

21:52

Canada. In a testament to

21:54

the complexity and significance of

21:56

the case, both appellate courts

21:58

upheld the original decision. The

22:00

Kenneth Parks case has become

22:02

a landmark in legal and

22:04

medical circles, challenging our understanding

22:06

of criminal responsibility and the

22:08

complexities of human consciousness. It

22:10

raises profound questions about the

22:12

nature of sleep, the potential

22:14

for violence during sleep, and

22:17

the legal concept of automatism.

22:19

Following his acquittal, Ken Parks

22:21

underwent psychotherapy to help him

22:23

adjust to his new life

22:25

and continued to take benzodiazepine

22:27

medication at bedtime. Follow-up sleep

22:29

studies showed some changes in

22:31

his sleep patterns likely due

22:33

to the long-term use of

22:35

benzodiazepines. Importantly, no further incidents

22:37

of sleepwalking or violence either

22:39

during the day or night

22:41

have been reported. The Kenneth

22:43

Parks case continues to be

22:45

studied and debated in legal

22:47

medical and scientific circles. It

22:49

highlights the intricate relationship between

22:51

sleep consciousness and behavior and

22:53

underscores the challenges in determining

22:55

criminal responsibility in cases involving

22:57

sleep disorders. This case also

22:59

brings attention to the potential

23:01

dangers of unrelated or undiagnosed

23:03

sleep disorders. While extreme violence

23:05

during sleepwalking is exceedingly rare,

23:07

the parks case serves as

23:09

a stark reminder of the

23:11

importance of addressing sleep issues

23:13

and seeking professional help when

23:15

needed. I have sleep issues

23:17

too, so I went and

23:19

got help. Now I use

23:21

a CPAP machine. I sleep

23:24

way better. Moreover, the case

23:26

sheds light on the devastating

23:28

effects of gambling addiction. Parks's

23:30

descent into compulsive gambling led

23:32

to a cascade of poor

23:34

decisions and deceptions that ultimately

23:36

contributed to the tragic events

23:38

of that fateful night. It

23:40

underscores the need for early

23:42

intervention and support for individuals

23:44

struggling with addiction. The Kennes

23:46

Park's case also raises important

23:48

questions about the nature of

23:50

consciousness and free will. If

23:52

a person can commit such

23:54

a violent act while ostensibly

23:56

asleep, what does this say

23:58

about her understanding of consciousness

24:00

and intentionality? These philosophical questions

24:02

continue to challenge our notions

24:04

of self and agency. From

24:06

a legal perspective, the case

24:08

has had far-reaching implications. It's

24:10

influenced how courts handle cases

24:12

involving automatism. and contributed to

24:14

ongoing debates about criminal responsibility

24:16

in mental states. The decision

24:18

to classify sleepwalking as a

24:20

form of non-insane automatism has

24:22

set a precedent that continues

24:24

to be discussed and sometimes

24:26

contested in legal circles. The

24:28

case also highlights the crucial

24:31

role of expert testimony in

24:33

complex legal proceedings. The detailed

24:35

sleep studies, psychiatric evaluations, and

24:37

expert interpretations were pivotal in

24:39

the jury's decision. This brings

24:41

to the four the importance

24:43

of bridging the gap between

24:45

scientific knowledge and legal decision-making.

24:47

I kind of like those

24:49

two things together. Yeah, yeah.

24:51

You know from a legal

24:53

perspective I find this case

24:55

fascinating because it forces that

24:57

sometimes when we do these

24:59

stories I'd sort of take

25:01

myself out and I just

25:03

it's just interesting to like

25:05

look at the justice system

25:07

and how it works right?

25:09

you know with like of

25:11

course it's all a tragedy

25:13

but you can elevate up

25:15

and just look at the

25:17

justice system sometimes and what

25:19

I find it fascinating about

25:21

this is it forces the

25:23

system to reckon with the

25:25

question what does it mean

25:27

to be responsible for your

25:29

actions and that's that's always

25:31

the really tricky bits injustice

25:33

isn't it well it can

25:35

be yeah it can be

25:38

right sometimes it's very if

25:40

sometimes it's very clear but

25:42

other times like at this

25:44

particular case That's what I'm

25:46

talking about when it's not

25:48

clear, like just from a

25:50

legal perspective. asking how they

25:52

get there and how they

25:54

figure it out right you

25:56

know because The law hinges

25:58

on intent, you know, but

26:00

sleepwalking obliterates that concept and

26:02

Park's case really set a

26:04

precedent, but it also also

26:06

opened up Pandora's box, right?

26:08

Like you're going to talk

26:10

about other cases. If sleep

26:12

can be defense, where do

26:14

we draw the line? Exactly.

26:16

And how do we separate

26:18

genuine cases of parasomny from

26:20

convenient legal arguments? Because we

26:22

know that insanity is a

26:24

often used when it's so

26:26

obvious that it's not. In

26:28

the field of sleep medicine,

26:30

the Kenneth Parks case has

26:32

been instrumental in advancing research

26:34

and understanding of parasomias. It

26:36

has spurred further studies into

26:38

the potential for complex behaviors

26:40

during sleep states and has

26:43

contributed to developing more sophisticated

26:45

diagnostic and monitoring techniques for

26:47

sleep disorders. As far as

26:49

I know, Kenneth Parks has

26:51

not spoken publicly about the

26:53

case, however, in 2006, nearly

26:55

20 years after the incident,

26:57

Parks ran for school trustee

26:59

in Durham. This suggests that

27:01

he had moved on with

27:03

his life to some extent,

27:05

but articles do not mention

27:07

any public statements from Parks

27:09

about his condition or the

27:11

case. I mean, I think

27:13

in this case, I do

27:15

think it was sleep. Right?

27:17

I actually agree with the

27:19

courts. There's so much science

27:21

behind. Hard as it is

27:23

and as sad as I

27:25

feel for the family. Family,

27:27

right? But this man must

27:29

have an, there's an extremely

27:31

high personal cost to him

27:33

for this as well. Oh,

27:35

100%. Imagine waking up one

27:37

day, you've killed someone, you've

27:39

loved, like literally you wake

27:41

up while you're doing it,

27:43

right? Well, you're, yeah, you,

27:45

you killed your mother-in-law. Yeah.

27:47

Your wife and you have

27:50

to deal with that as

27:52

well. Yeah, and your kids

27:54

and and and I love

27:56

my mother-in-law right like it's

27:58

yeah though all the mother-in-law

28:00

jokes you know often mother-in-law's

28:02

are great you know in

28:04

my case she is and

28:06

mine was and he was

28:08

acquitted but he he wasn't

28:10

absolved right like no court

28:12

ruling can change a reality

28:14

of what happened that night

28:16

and I must imagine his

28:18

feelings of personal guilt or

28:20

at least grief didn't vanish

28:22

with the verdict Right? Like,

28:24

it can't have. And it

28:26

must have been hard to

28:28

get on with his life

28:30

and the same for the

28:32

people who loved him and

28:34

Barbara, right? Definitely. After the

28:36

break, as well as several

28:38

others, we'll look at another

28:40

lesser-known Canadian case where some

28:42

nambulism was used as a

28:44

defense. The alleged attempted murder

28:46

of Hugh Heglin by Clayton

28:48

John Vickburg in Victoria BC

28:50

in 1996. This

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today. That's

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shopify.com/system. And

30:01

we are back Matthew thoughts on

30:04

this stuff so far You know

30:06

for somebody who sleeps talks who

30:08

sleep walks and who has years

30:10

ago Sleep sex sleep sex. I

30:13

find this like really chilling Mm-hmm

30:15

The idea that someone can commit

30:17

murder without intent It forces us

30:20

to confront some really uncomfortable truths

30:22

about our own autonomy if you

30:24

think about it. It's like we

30:27

believe we're in control of our

30:29

actions, right? But... This case, like,

30:31

puts cracks in that assumption. And

30:33

I think, you know, the science

30:36

has proven that homeathism is a

30:38

real, but... Some anambulism? Some nambulism.

30:40

They have to find a better

30:43

word, okay? So the sex one

30:45

is sleep sex. By accepting that

30:47

scientific fact. We're accepting something dark

30:49

and that's that we're not entirely

30:52

in control of ourselves or safe

30:54

from ourselves. Yeah. And that freaks,

30:56

that totally... Like I was reading

30:59

this freaked out. Freaked out when

31:01

you. me this script. Well it

31:03

is freaky and this is why

31:06

I wanted to retell this story

31:08

because the first time I told

31:10

this particular story I don't feel

31:12

like addressed it I addressed it

31:15

well enough and and so that's

31:17

why that's why I revisit stories.

31:19

Was that was that before me?

31:22

Yes. Because I used to listen

31:24

to show before I started on

31:26

the show. I heard you have

31:29

a great new co-host yeah I've

31:31

never heard them. Okay,

31:34

moving on. Oh boy. I have

31:37

a personal history of intermittent sleepwalking

31:39

out into the living room near

31:41

my bedroom when I was a

31:44

kid, and I had unremembered conversations

31:46

with mom and dad. I've peed

31:48

in inappropriate places, including the bathtub

31:51

and a low window sill. My

31:53

parents reported... sitting up dead asleep

31:55

in our shared hotel room at

31:58

one point, yelling out, quote, they're

32:00

going to get us, and then

32:02

laying right back down to sleep.

32:05

In 2018, I went through some

32:07

serious issues with problems related to

32:09

sleep. I began doing weird things

32:12

in my sleep. My dreams were

32:14

vivid and strange. I would laugh

32:16

loudly or have bizarre one-sided conversations

32:19

with unseen people, sometimes flailing my

32:21

arms at something in my dream.

32:23

My ex-wife Carol informed me of

32:26

these episodes if they didn't wake

32:28

me, which they frequently did. I

32:30

would come to reaching for something

32:33

that wasn't there. I fell asleep

32:35

during the day when sitting down

32:37

and sometimes began nodding off when

32:40

driving long distances. That ain't good.

32:42

I went to the doctor and

32:44

got a referral to a sleep

32:47

clinic. I spent the night there

32:49

wired to various sensors and machines.

32:51

I was having sleep apnea events

32:54

at least 100 times per hour.

32:56

which I'm told was extreme. I

32:58

was prescribed a CPAT machine that

33:01

I have been using ever since.

33:03

I'm grateful I never hurt anyone,

33:06

but having had my experiences, I

33:08

can see how it's possible. For

33:10

centuries, the defense of sleepwalking has

33:13

been often unsuccessfully attempted as a

33:15

defense for various crimes. It was

33:17

not until Kenneth Parks's case that

33:20

the science had caught up to

33:22

the point where when it is

33:24

warranted, it can be successfully employed.

33:27

Lady Macbeth was said to be

33:29

sleepwalking when she gave her famous

33:31

speech in Act 5, seen one

33:34

of the Scottish play, when she

33:36

cried out, sleepwalking and guiltily dreaming

33:38

of blood on her hands, Out

33:41

damned spot! Out, I say! And

33:43

then, one, two, why then? Tis

33:45

time to do it. Hell is

33:48

murky. I love the Scottish play.

33:50

Yeah, me too. And for those

33:52

who... Don't understand the reason it's

33:55

called the Scottish play because you

33:57

never invoke that name because it's

33:59

cursed It's gonna jinx it if

34:02

you're doing if you're doing the

34:04

play you can't like we can

34:06

say it but if you're doing

34:09

the play you can't say it

34:11

because it's gonna jinx the play

34:13

yes exactly a 1988 Ottawa citizen

34:16

article about the parks case brilliantly

34:18

quoted the Robert Palmer hit addicted

34:20

to love quote your lights are

34:23

on but you're not home your

34:25

will is not your own end

34:27

quote so it sort of speaks

34:30

to what you were talking about

34:32

after the break there man something

34:34

about sweats I'm gonna have the

34:37

song in my head all day

34:39

now Mike yes I'm not sorry

34:42

Do you remember the Robert Palmer

34:44

girls? I absolutely did. How that

34:46

was like such a big thing.

34:49

It slipped back hair, the miniskirt,

34:51

so the lips. Black miniskirt, black

34:53

stockings and uh... And that 80s

34:56

white hair. Yeah. Do you remember

34:58

before they changed their dress code,

35:00

Earl's restaurant? Yeah. Just something I

35:03

would go and like laugh that

35:05

all the waitresses were Robert Palmer

35:07

girls. Because they had a dress

35:10

code that made them all look

35:12

like Robert Palmer girls. They're all

35:14

in like short black dresses, high

35:17

heels. They all just look back

35:19

here in red lipstick and we're

35:21

like, wow, we're going back to

35:24

the 80s. Yeah. Kenneth Parks's case

35:26

was not the first successful use

35:28

of somnambulism as a defense. The

35:31

landmark 1846 case, Massachusetts versus Terrell

35:33

was the first documented instance where

35:35

sleepwalking was successfully used as a

35:38

defense against murder charges. The tale

35:40

begins with Maria Bickford, a captivating

35:42

beauty who plied her trade in

35:45

a Boston brothel catering to the

35:47

city's wealthy elite. Among her patrons

35:49

was Albert Terrell, a married man

35:52

and father from Weymouth who had

35:54

abandoned his family to be closer

35:56

to Maria. Their relationship was tumultuous,

35:59

with Terrell reportedly urging Maria to

36:01

leave her profession. A request she

36:03

steadfastly refused in her pursuit of

36:06

independence. On the fateful night of

36:08

October 27, 1845, tragedy struck. Terrell

36:10

allegedly visited Bickford's bedroom. and committed

36:13

a gruesome act, slashing her throat

36:15

so severely she was nearly decapitated.

36:18

In an apparent attempt to cover

36:20

his tracks, he set three fires

36:22

in the brothel before fleeing the

36:25

scene. While several witnesses placed Terrell

36:27

at the location, none could testify

36:29

to witnessing the actual murder. Terrell's

36:32

subsequent flight to New Orleans and

36:34

eventual capture only added to the

36:36

drama of the case when brought

36:39

to trial in Boston his defense

36:41

team led by one of the

36:43

era's most prominent attorneys presented a

36:46

bold and unprecedented strategy. They argued

36:48

that Terrell was a chronic sleepwalker

36:50

who may have committed the heinous

36:53

act while in the grip of

36:55

a nightmare or a trance. You

36:57

were laughing at me earlier when

37:00

we were going through this because

37:02

I've totally geeked out on. how

37:04

he got from Boston to New

37:07

Orleans, the 1845. So I find

37:09

it fascinating how people were tracked

37:11

down back then. I can never

37:14

get over, like Boston to New

37:16

York in a straight line is

37:18

2,400 kilometers, right? That's quite a

37:21

track in the 1800s. It's a

37:23

track now, let alone the 1800s,

37:25

but back then. So I geeked

37:28

out, did the research. If he

37:30

took a train from Boston to

37:32

New York, then a coastal steamer

37:35

down the coast to Charleston or

37:37

Savannah, then another steamboat along rivers

37:39

and the Gulf of... Mexico coast

37:42

to New Orleans. It would have

37:44

taken 10 to 14 days. The

37:46

Gulf of Mexico, yeah. Yeah. If

37:49

he took an overland stagecoach, it'd

37:51

be four to six weeks. And

37:53

if he did ship around Florida,

37:56

it'd be three to four weeks.

37:58

So that's Florida into the Gulf

38:01

of Mexico and then to New

38:03

Orleans. Yeah, which is a long

38:05

way around, right? It really is.

38:08

And so, you know, I think

38:10

he was on the run and

38:12

he had money, so he probably

38:15

did it took him. know, 10

38:17

to 14 days. So thinking about

38:19

this, okay, he's that far away,

38:22

10 to 14 days at this

38:24

fastest speed, there are no national

38:26

databases, there are no computers, there

38:29

are no telephones, and the telegraph

38:31

was just being invented in its

38:33

infancy. Right. There was nothing, right?

38:36

It was, they would have had

38:38

to like, like, asked people, did

38:40

you see this guy? That's how

38:43

it happened. So wanted notice, newspaper

38:45

alerts, word of mouth, surveillance at

38:47

travel hubs, but even surveillance at

38:50

travel hubs, you have to get

38:52

ahead of the guy to do

38:54

it, right? Yep. I was kind

38:57

of hoping that the Pinkerton's got

38:59

him. I'm fascinated with Pinkerton detective

39:01

agency, but they weren't around until

39:04

1850. There you go. Anyway, I'll

39:06

stop geekyking now. Terrells lawyer wove

39:08

a compelling narrative in an age

39:11

when medical understanding of sleep disorders

39:13

was virtually non-existentexistent nonexistent. He presented

39:15

extensive testimony from family members and

39:18

acquaintances detailing Terrell's history of sleepwalking.

39:20

Through vivid descriptions of violence attributed

39:22

to somnambulism, the defense successfully planted

39:25

seeds of doubt in the jurors'

39:27

minds. On March 30th, 1846, after

39:29

less than two hours of deliberation,

39:32

the jury returned to verdict, not

39:34

guilty. Terrell, walked free. However, viewed

39:37

through the lens of modern medical

39:39

knowledge, the outcome of Massachusetts versus

39:41

Terrell raises eyebrows. Today's understanding of

39:44

parasomias suggests that Terrell's actions, particularly

39:46

setting fires to cover up the

39:48

crime, fleeing the scene and going

39:51

into hiding, are inconsistent with genuine

39:53

sleepwalking behavior. Geez, do you think?

39:55

The verdict might differ in a

39:58

contemporary courtroom armed with current... scientific

40:00

insights and common sense. I have

40:02

a sneaking suspicion that he was

40:05

wide awake when he did this.

40:07

No, yeah, your sneaking suspicion is

40:09

probably correct. Not every use of

40:12

some nambulism as a defense in

40:14

criminal proceedings has resulted in acquittal.

40:16

In 1993, two significant cases highlighted

40:19

the challenges of using sleep-related defenses.

40:21

In Pennsylvania, Michael Rickskers was convicted

40:23

and sentenced to life in prison

40:26

without parole for killing his wife

40:28

despite claiming he was dreaming about

40:30

an intruder when he fired the

40:33

gun that killed her. Although Rickskers

40:35

presented a clinical history of severe

40:37

obstructive sleep apnea, the prosecution's argument

40:40

that he was upset about his

40:42

wife planning to leave him proved

40:44

more convincing to the jury. That

40:47

same year in Indiana, a man

40:49

named David M. McClain's attempt to

40:51

use sleep deprivation as a defense

40:54

failed when the court classified his

40:56

automatism evidence as a mental disease

40:58

or defect. McClain was alleged to

41:01

have struck several police officers while

41:03

being subdued. On December 22, 1993,

41:05

McLean was charged with aggravated battery,

41:08

two counts of battery against police

41:10

officers, and two counts of resisting

41:12

law enforcement. His defense had withdrawn

41:15

his insanity defense before the trial,

41:17

which prevented him from presenting sleep

41:20

deprivation evidence, leading to his conviction

41:22

on all the charges. The late

41:24

1990s and early 2000s saw more

41:27

high-profile cases where sleepwalking defenses were

41:29

rejected. In 1999, Scott Fallater was

41:31

convicted of first-degree murder in Arizona

41:34

despite claiming a sleepwalking defense. Fallater

41:36

had stabbed his wife 44 times

41:38

and drowned her in their swimming

41:41

pool. His conviction was based on

41:43

a neighbor's testimony of witnessing seemingly

41:45

conscious actions, evidence of fallator hiding

41:48

incriminating items, and the complex nature

41:50

of his actions which were inconsistent

41:52

with typical sleepwalking behavior behavior. The

41:55

following year in 2000, a man

41:57

named Clayton was convicted in a

41:59

U.S. federal court despite having significant

42:02

history of sleepwalking behaviors. The

42:04

prosecution acknowledged his sleepwalking

42:06

history, but his conviction was based

42:09

on the nature of his attack,

42:11

which involved chasing the victim and

42:13

using a hammer, as well as

42:15

Clayton's history of domestic violence while

42:17

awake, suggesting the violent behavior was

42:19

not out of character. In

42:21

the mid-2000s, two more cases

42:23

further illustrated the difficulties in

42:25

successfully employing a sleepwalking defense.

42:28

In 2004, Stephen Otto Reitz was

42:30

convicted in California and sentenced

42:32

to 26 years to life

42:34

for killing his girlfriend. His

42:36

sleepwalking defense failed despite having

42:38

a history of sleepwalking and

42:40

undergoing sleep clinic tests that

42:42

revealed a propensity to sleepwalk

42:44

and experienced night terrors. The

42:47

conviction was later upheld on

42:49

appeal. The following year, in Dorset

42:51

England, Michael Cattling's attempt to use

42:53

automatism due to sleepwalking as the

42:56

defense was unsuccessful. He was convicted

42:58

of murder and jailed for life.

43:01

Expert investigation discredited his sleepwalking claim

43:03

and the brutal nature of that

43:05

crime, which involved cutting the victim's

43:08

throat and multiple stabbings, along with

43:10

his actions after the crime, including

43:13

fleeing the scene, and initially claiming

43:15

someone else had attacked the victim,

43:17

which contributed to the failure of

43:20

his defense. These cases demonstrate that

43:22

while sleepwalking can sometimes be

43:24

used successfully as a defense,

43:26

courts often reject such claims.

43:28

especially when the actions

43:30

involved are complex, violent, or

43:33

inconsistent with typical sleepwalking behavior.

43:35

The burden of proof remains high for

43:37

defendants attempting to use some nambulism

43:39

as a defense, and the success

43:42

of such claims often depends on

43:44

the specific circumstances of each case,

43:46

the strength of evidence presented, and

43:48

the ability to convince the court

43:50

that the criminal actions were truly

43:53

committed while in a state of

43:55

automatism. Another Canadian case,

43:57

the case of R versus

43:59

V. Vickburg, heard in 1998

44:02

by the Supreme Court of

44:04

British Columbia, presents a complex

44:06

legal scenario involving criminal responsibility,

44:08

intoxication, and automatism. While it's

44:10

not exactly some nambulism, it

44:12

does bring into question whether

44:14

or not Vickburg was aware

44:16

of what he was doing

44:18

while he did it. On

44:20

February 1st, 1996, Clayton John

44:22

Vichburg was charged with attempted

44:24

murder and assault with a

44:26

weapon after stabbing Hugh Heglen

44:28

multiple times in Heglen's apartment.

44:31

The case hinged on whether

44:33

Vichburg was in a state

44:35

of automatism due to extreme

44:37

intoxication from prescription drugs at

44:39

the time of the attack.

44:41

The events leading up to

44:43

the incident paint a picture

44:45

of a man struggling with

44:47

addiction and seeking help. Vichburg...

44:49

A heroin addict had consulted

44:51

Dr. Rokkerby on January 30th,

44:53

1996 in an attempt to

44:55

combat his addiction. Dr. Rokkerby

44:57

prescribed him 60 Chlonidine tablets

45:00

and 20 immovane tablets. Chlonidine

45:02

is used for hypertension, ADHD,

45:04

and insomnia, particularly in patients

45:06

with chronic pain or anxiety.

45:08

It reduces norapenefrin activity in

45:10

the brain, promoting sedation and

45:12

better sleep quality. Common side

45:14

effects include dry mouth dizziness

45:16

and low blood pressure. Immovane,

45:18

Zopaklon is a sedative hypnotic

45:20

prescribed for short-term insomnia management.

45:22

It enhances the ability to

45:24

sleep but can cause drowsiness,

45:26

confusion, and dependency with prolonged

45:28

use. Withdrawal symptoms and adverse

45:31

effects like nightmares are common.

45:33

Clonidine is often considered safer

45:35

for long-term use, especially in

45:37

chronic pain, patients, while immovane

45:39

is effective but carries a

45:41

higher risk of dependency and

45:43

side effects. Vicberg's Clonidine container

45:45

was labeled with instructions to

45:47

take one or two tablets

45:49

three times a day as

45:51

needed. While the immovane was

45:53

to be taken at bedtime,

45:55

there was no evidence that

45:57

Vickburg received any warnings about

46:00

potential side effects or dangers

46:02

of these medications. On the

46:04

morning of February 1st, 1996,

46:06

Vickburg, feeling depressed and experiencing

46:08

heroin withdrawal symptoms, began taking

46:10

the prescribed medications. He initially

46:12

took three or four clonidine

46:14

tablets, then a few more

46:16

as his withdrawal symptoms intensified.

46:18

Vickburg's last clear memory was

46:20

of feeling lightheaded while catching

46:22

a bus. He has no

46:24

recollection of taking any further

46:26

pills or of the events

46:29

that followed. At around 1130

46:31

a.m. Vickburg entered Hugh Hegglin's

46:33

apartment. Hegglin, who knew Vickburg

46:35

as a friend, invited him

46:37

in. Without warning or apparent

46:39

motive, Vickburg suddenly attacked Hugh

46:41

Hegglin, stabbing him multiple times

46:43

while saying, you are going

46:45

to die. Hugh Heglin managed

46:47

to fight back, breaking the

46:49

knife, and eventually subduing Vickburg.

46:51

During the struggle, Vickburg also

46:53

hit Heglin several times, and

46:55

Hugh noted that Vickburg seemed

46:58

to be in a trance-like

47:00

state, not responding to anything

47:02

Heglin said, and appearing not

47:04

to recognize him. After the

47:06

attack, Vickburg fled the scene

47:08

and stole a car belonging

47:10

to Suzanne Combe, a neighbor.

47:12

Combe observed Vickburg in a

47:14

trance-like state unresponsive to her

47:16

calls as he drove away.

47:18

As he drove away. Shortly

47:20

after, Vickburg crashed the stolen

47:22

car on the island highway,

47:24

when police arrived at the

47:27

crash site, they found Vickburg

47:29

semi-conscious and moaning. At the

47:31

hospital, it was discovered that

47:33

Vickburg had consumed approximately 60

47:35

clonidine tablets and 20 immovane

47:37

tablets. The primary diagnosis was

47:39

an overdose of these prescription

47:41

medications coupled with a closed

47:43

head injury from the car

47:45

accident. Notably, there was no

47:47

evidence of recent heroin use

47:49

by Vicburg. The legal issues

47:51

in this case centered around

47:53

whether Vicksburg was in a

47:56

state of non-insane automatism at

47:58

the time of the attack,

48:00

and if so, whether this

48:02

state was brought about by

48:04

voluntary or involuntary intoxication. The

48:06

defense argued that Vicksburg's consumption

48:08

of the prescription drugs had

48:10

led to a dissociative state

48:12

akin to automatism, rendering him

48:14

unaware of his actions and

48:16

unable to form the necessary

48:18

intent for the crimes charged.

48:20

just as Owen Flood carefully

48:22

considered the evidence, including expert

48:24

testimony from John LaRasby, a

48:27

forensic psychiatrist. Dr. LaRasby opined

48:29

that Vicburg was indeed in

48:31

a dissociative state at the

48:33

time of the attack brought

48:35

about by the overconsumption of

48:37

prescription medications. He emphasized that

48:39

once impaired by the drugs

48:41

like clonidine and immovane, a

48:43

person may be unaware of

48:45

further consumption explaining how Vickburg

48:47

could have ingested such a

48:49

large quantity. The judge concluded

48:51

that Vickburg was in a

48:53

state of non-insane automatism during

48:56

the attack induced by the

48:58

involuntary over-consumption of prescription drugs.

49:00

Justice Owenflud found that Vickburg

49:02

did not intend to become

49:04

extremely intoxicated and was unaware

49:06

of the potential effects of

49:08

the medications. As a result,

49:10

Vicburg was acquitted of all

49:12

charges. The judge also considered

49:14

the application of Section 33.1

49:16

of the criminal code which

49:18

limits the use of extreme

49:20

intoxication as a defense for

49:22

violent crimes. However, he ruled

49:25

that it did not apply

49:27

in this case as Vicburg's

49:29

intoxication was not clearly, quote,

49:31

self-induced as required by the

49:33

law. Nevertheless, the judge upheld

49:35

the constitutionality of Section 33.1

49:37

for future cases, finding that

49:39

although it violates Section 7

49:41

and 11D of the Charter

49:43

of Rights and Freedoms, it

49:45

can be saved under Section

49:47

1 as a reasonable in

49:49

a free and democratic society.

49:51

So to break that all

49:54

down, please. If you get

49:56

yourself drunk or stoned and

49:58

then commit murder, you cannot

50:00

use that as a defense.

50:02

But in this case, because

50:04

Vicberg seemed to be taking

50:06

the drugs as prescribed, but

50:08

they affected him poorly and

50:10

in a state of dissociative

50:12

automatism, he took the rest

50:14

of the pills and ended

50:16

up... stabbing Hugh Haglin. One

50:18

thing I know from having

50:20

friends that were addicts and

50:23

knowing people that were is

50:25

is there's a fact that

50:27

an addict can't be trusted

50:29

when they're asked how much

50:31

they're taking or how often.

50:33

I know I could not.

50:35

It is a part of

50:37

the nature of addiction to

50:39

downplay how much you're doing.

50:41

Right. And he was popping

50:43

those pills. More of them,

50:45

more of them than he

50:47

was supposed to at the

50:49

beginning. In the morning, what

50:51

you said, like I was

50:54

counting, he did about six

50:56

within in that morning, right?

50:58

Yeah. And so then, but

51:00

I do, I still question,

51:02

all we have is an

51:04

addict's word that he quote,

51:06

can't remember taking more. Yeah.

51:08

And I find that flimsy.

51:10

But it doesn't matter because

51:12

the jury bought it. I

51:14

don't think I do and

51:16

he was acquitted, right? But

51:18

I do also wonder what

51:20

his loved ones think of

51:23

the result of this. The

51:25

fact that someone addicted to

51:27

heroin went free because he

51:29

quote involuntarily consumed other drugs.

51:31

I can tell you Mike

51:33

if this was you that

51:35

was killed or my husband,

51:37

well I'll put my husband

51:39

first up, my husband or

51:41

your family members. Yeah. I

51:43

would definitely feel that justice

51:45

wasn't done, my friend. Yeah.

51:47

Well, so yeah, this one

51:49

is a bit... and this

51:52

is why I included it,

51:54

because it's... it's a bit

51:56

interesting and and a rather

51:58

mildly controversial for those reasons

52:00

that you just stated so

52:02

yeah I think it's some

52:04

you know I don't know

52:06

truth I'm not saying another

52:08

truth but this all feels

52:10

flimsy to me and when

52:12

you're when you're dealing with

52:14

the fact that somebody was

52:16

murdered I just it's sad

52:18

I find the sad yeah

52:21

according to his obituary Hugh

52:23

Hegelen passed away September 20th

52:25

2006 He left behind his

52:27

wife Mary, four children, Linda,

52:29

Rick, Cheryl, and Kevin, and

52:31

eight grandchildren. He was well

52:33

known for charter fishing with

52:35

his boat, The Tuggy. He

52:37

had made many friends through

52:39

his work. These cases of

52:41

automatistic violence, in particular those

52:43

of Kenneth Parks and Clayton

52:45

John Vickburg, challenge our understanding

52:47

of consciousness, free will and

52:50

criminal responsibility. While the legal

52:52

system has grappled with these

52:54

complex issues, the true nature

52:56

of sleep-related violence remains a

52:58

subject of intense debate among

53:00

medical professional legal experts and

53:02

ethicists alike. As we've seen,

53:04

the line between sleep and

53:06

wakefulness can be frighteningly blurred,

53:08

leaving us to wonder how

53:10

much control do we really

53:12

have over our actions when

53:14

we're in the grip of

53:16

a deep sleep or under

53:19

the influence of a drug

53:21

we didn't mean to take.

53:23

This episode serves as a

53:25

chilling reminder that even in

53:27

its most vulnerable state, the

53:29

human mind can be capable

53:31

of shocking acts. As we

53:33

turn off the lights tonight,

53:35

we might ponder how well

53:37

do we know ourselves in

53:39

the dark. And that's it

53:41

for dark-putine episode 355, homicidal

53:43

somnambulism. Are you a murderer

53:45

if you kill in your

53:47

sleep? This

53:52

episode is brought to you

53:55

by Progressive Insurance. Do you

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ever find yourself playing the

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budgeting game? Well, with a...

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at progressive.com. Progressive Casual Insurance

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Company and affiliates. Price and

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coverage match limited by state

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law. Not available in all

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states. It's time for voicemails.

54:22

You can leave us a

54:25

message at 1-877-576 or 1-87-7-D-A-R-K-P-T-N.

54:27

We'd love to hear from

54:29

you. Let's see who called

54:32

us this week. Our first

54:34

voicemail was a little muddled,

54:36

but I do have the

54:39

text because the software that

54:41

I use transcribes are voicemails

54:43

for us. Look at you

54:46

being all futuristic. Well, I

54:48

don't know. I just floop

54:50

into this one. So the

54:53

voicemail goes, hi, it's Elizabeth

54:55

from Liverpool, just down the

54:57

road from Bridgewater. I'm calling

55:00

with a little bit of

55:02

appreciation for you, lads. It

55:04

is really painful to listen

55:06

to Americans or Europeans talk

55:09

about the crimes happening in

55:11

Canada. They do not understand

55:13

our provinces. They get all

55:16

the names mispronounced. I had

55:18

to endure mispronunciation. Anyway, so

55:20

she goes on to delete

55:23

an episode of a podcast

55:25

and she said she's just

55:27

calling to say thank you

55:30

for being Canadian. Not. You'll

55:32

notice, Elizabeth, you'll notice in

55:34

this episode, we didn't mispronounce

55:37

the Gulf of Mexico. Yeah,

55:39

right. Anyway, but somebody else

55:41

just messes me the other

55:44

day and said, you mispronounced

55:46

the name of this thing.

55:48

And I said, well, you

55:51

know what? I have. We're

55:53

that as a badge of

55:55

honor. I mispronounce all kinds

55:57

of words. There's this thing

56:00

called regional pronunciation. And if

56:02

you're not from the region,

56:04

you may not pronounce it

56:07

that way. Just because the

56:09

people in the region pronounce

56:11

it that way, doesn't necessarily

56:14

mean it's the right way.

56:16

Oh! I agree with you,

56:18

Mick. Okay. Thank you. Matieu.

56:21

I'm not in the... Where

56:23

do you live again? Langley.

56:25

I'm not in the Langley

56:28

region, so I'm going to

56:30

call you Mick. I thought

56:32

you lived in that other

56:35

place. Abbotsford? Yeah. No. That's

56:37

it for this week's voicemails.

56:39

Again, you can leave us

56:42

one at 1-877-576 or 1-877-D-A-R-K-K-T-N.

56:44

We'd love to hear from

56:46

you, even if it is

56:49

just to say hi and

56:51

to tell us to go

56:53

shit in our hats. If

56:55

you're stumped for what to

56:58

chat with us about, a

57:00

quick story is welcome. All

57:02

righty, it's on to Donut

57:05

Money donors and uh, Patriot,

57:07

and we actually missed a

57:09

PayPal, Donut Money donor, back

57:12

in December, when we were

57:14

off. So that makes sense

57:16

that we might have missed

57:19

a couple. And, uh, this

57:21

person's name is Leslie, and

57:23

she is from... Here's

57:26

here's gonna be a mispronunciation.

57:28

Peckin Illinois or Pekin Illinois.

57:30

It's P-E-K-I-N-I-N-I-N-I-N-I-N-I-N-I-N-I-N-I-N-I-N-I-N-I-N-I-N-I-I-N-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-for- for that. You

57:32

should be. I wonder if

57:34

they make pick and pie

57:36

in Illinois and a pecan.

57:39

Oh yeah, there's another. There's

57:41

another regional pronunciation. In Dallas,

57:43

I was told, you call

57:45

it a pecan. You don't

57:47

call it a pecan. Okay,

57:49

interesting. It's a pecan. It's

57:51

a pecan pie. Pecan, so

57:54

maybe Leslie is from pecan,

57:56

Illinois. Maybe, I don't know.

57:58

What does she do there

58:00

in Illinois? How much do

58:02

you want to bet she's

58:04

a baker of pies? No,

58:06

no, no. She teaches history.

58:09

She teaches history. Okay. Yeah.

58:11

Does she have a particular

58:13

focus? All of it. All

58:15

of the history. Leslie, it

58:17

literally knows everything that's ever

58:19

happened everywhere. Oh wow. Yeah,

58:22

can you imagine if you

58:24

had a history teacher that

58:26

literally knew exactly what happened

58:28

in all time? That would

58:30

be... Incredible. Well, my favorite

58:32

history teacher, his name was

58:34

John Derek and he was

58:37

a British guy and... And

58:39

did he think he knew

58:41

everything? No, he was fantastic.

58:43

He was one of those

58:45

guys who used to... everybody

58:47

loved him. He used to

58:49

have attendance tests when it

58:52

was summer and he would

58:54

say, if you're here, you

58:56

get 100% if you haven't

58:58

skipped my class. So he

59:00

would, you know, call your

59:02

name and you would say

59:05

present. Did your teachers ever

59:07

like on a summer day?

59:09

Did you ever have a

59:11

teacher go? We're just going

59:13

to go. We're going to

59:15

have a class outside today.

59:17

Well, he would actually let

59:20

us go sometimes. Okay. But

59:22

did you ever have like,

59:24

you sit around a circle

59:26

on the grass? Uh, yeah,

59:28

a couple of times. But,

59:30

uh, but yeah, John Derek

59:32

was great. Anyway, thank you,

59:35

Leslie. The, Leslie, the Oracle.

59:37

The Oracle. Yeah. If she

59:39

knows everything, she's the Oracle,

59:41

isn't she? Well, Oracle's no

59:43

way more than. just history

59:45

though, don't they? They know

59:47

the future. They do? Yeah.

59:50

Thanks to all our patrons

59:52

and donut money donors past

59:54

and present for your generosity.

59:56

It helps to keep the

59:58

show going. You can become

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1:00:22

Putine on Apple Podcast, Spotify,

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two books are available to

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1:00:56

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1:00:58

thing. And that's it for

1:01:01

this episode of Darkputine, so

1:01:03

until next time, don't forget

1:01:05

to be a good egg

1:01:07

and not a bad apple.

1:01:09

Bye, everyone. Daniel

1:01:52

Blanchard is no ordinary thief. His heists are

1:01:54

ingenious. His escapes defy belief. And when he

1:01:56

sees the dazzling... diamond CC Star, he'll

1:01:58

he'll risk everything to

1:02:00

steal it. His His exploits

1:02:02

set off an intercontinental

1:02:04

manhunt, but how long

1:02:06

can CC long can lucky

1:02:08

for Daniel? for I'm

1:02:10

Seren Jones, and this

1:02:12

is most audacious heist. on

1:02:15

Listen on Apple Podcasts,

1:02:17

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