0:00

Hey Mike here, I just wanted to

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let you know that you can listen

0:04

to Dark Poutine early and ad-free on

0:06

Amazon Music, included with Prime. Woman

0:10

of the Hour is the stranger than

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whose life intersects with a serial

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Netflix, Rated R. Welcome

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back to Dark Poutine, I am Mike Brown. You

1:21

weren't recording what I just said, were you?

1:23

No, I definitely was not because it was

1:25

extremely crass and rude. Mike's

1:29

all flustered. Hi everybody, welcome to the

1:31

show. And yeah, that's

1:33

Matthew Stockton down there in Vancouver.

1:35

How is Steve? I am more

1:37

than concerned about our little friend.

1:40

Steve has his little cone on

1:43

and by the end of the day it's like

1:45

a dirty martini because there's so much slobber in

1:47

that thing, which is disgusting. But he's

1:49

also happily on morphine, so he just kind

1:51

of languishes all day until the thing's done.

1:54

Yeah, I noticed you put on social media

1:56

the other day when you were giving Steve

1:58

morphine. Don't move with this one. This is

2:00

the good stuff. This is the good stuff,

2:02

big boy. Oh dear. The

2:06

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2:08

during the Dark Poutine podcast

2:10

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2:12

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2:15

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2:19

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2:25

Dark Poutine is not for the faint of heart

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2:32

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2:34

we journalists. We're two ordinary Canadian

2:36

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2:38

dark side of history. Let's get

2:40

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4:04

In the early 1980s, a

4:07

wave of fear with its origins

4:09

in Canada swept across North America,

4:11

igniting what would become known as

4:14

the Satanic Panic. This

4:16

moral hysteria fueled by sensational

4:18

media reports and dubious claims

4:21

of widespread Satanic ritual abuse

4:23

had its roots in a

4:25

controversial book published in 1980

4:27

titled, Michelle Remembers. As

4:30

the panic spread, it manifested

4:32

in several high-profile cases across

4:34

North America. One of the

4:36

most notorious incidents here in

4:38

Canada occurred in Martinsville, Saskatchewan,

4:40

where unfounded allegations of ritual

4:43

abuse at a local daycare

4:45

center led to multiple arrests

4:47

and a community torn apart

4:49

by suspicion and fear. Other

4:52

cases emerged, each feeding into the

4:54

growing narrative of a vast underground

4:57

network of Satanic cults preying on

4:59

innocent children. The

5:01

episode of mass hysteria would leave

5:04

a lasting impact on North American

5:06

society, raising questions about the reliability

5:09

of recovered memories, the power of

5:11

suggestion, and the dangers of unchecked

5:13

moral panics. This

5:16

is Dark Poutine Episode 340, Satanic

5:19

Panic, a Canadian export.

5:34

Canada is known for exporting a

5:36

diverse range of products and cultural

5:38

contributions that have impacted the world

5:41

in meaningful ways. Canada

5:43

has consistently been a major player

5:45

in global trade from its vast

5:47

natural resources such as timber, oil,

5:50

and minerals to popular goods like

5:52

maple syrup and hockey equipment. The

5:55

country's cultural exports are also

5:57

significant, with internationally recognized musicians.

6:00

like Celine Dion and The Weeknd,

6:03

as well as iconic actors

6:05

like Ryan Reynolds and Rachel

6:07

McAdams. Beyond entertainment and industry,

6:10

Canada has also exported intellectual

6:12

contributions, medical innovations,

6:14

and other inventions. Every

6:17

time you eat a Hawaiian pizza or use

6:19

a zipper, you should thank a Canadian. However,

6:22

one of Canada's more controversial exports came

6:24

in the form of a cultural phenomena

6:26

in the 1980s. As

6:30

we mentioned, this moral hysteria which spread

6:32

through North America and beyond was fueled

6:34

in large part by the 1980 book,

6:38

Michelle Remembers, written by Canadian

6:41

psychiatrist Lawrence Pazder and his

6:43

patient Michelle Smith. The

6:46

book claimed to deal with Smith's

6:48

repressed memories of horrific satanic ritual

6:50

abuse. Though later

6:52

discredited, Michelle Remembers played a crucial

6:55

role in igniting widespread fear of

6:57

secret satanic cults contributing to the

6:59

satanic panic movement that gripped Canada

7:01

and the US. The

7:04

cultural legacy of this moral panic

7:06

rooted in a Canadian publication highlights

7:08

how even a nation known for

7:10

its modest and peaceful image can

7:13

contribute to global waves of fear

7:15

and paranoia. Is

7:18

it funny how fear can travel

7:20

faster than facts? What

7:24

started as this localized hysteria

7:26

in Canada found very fertile

7:28

ground in American sensationalism. Anything

7:32

that Canada does, America just

7:34

does it with bright lights, right?

7:38

Yes, exactly, and neon and all that kind

7:40

of stuff. And of course, we can always

7:42

count on the media to fan the flames,

7:44

can't we? Yes, we can. Michelle

7:46

Remembers purported to be an accurate

7:49

account of Michelle Smith's recovered memories

7:51

of horrific satanic abuse she allegedly

7:53

endured as a child in Victoria,

7:56

British Columbia. The book's

7:58

lurid claims, despite it being a

8:00

real crime, are not the only

8:02

ones to be lacking any corroborating

8:04

evidence, captured the public imagination and

8:06

sparked a continent-wide obsession with uncovering

8:09

supposed satanic cults. That obsession continues

8:11

today in some corners. According

8:13

to the book, Michelle was subjected

8:16

to unimaginable horrors at the hands

8:18

of this cult which included her

8:20

mother. The narrative unfolds through a

8:22

series of recovered memories unearthed during

8:25

intensive therapy sessions with Dr. Pazder.

8:28

Over 600 hours of therapy spanning

8:30

14 months, Michelle allegedly recalled

8:32

vivid and disturbing experiences that had

8:35

been wholly repressed until that point.

8:37

The book paints a chilling picture

8:39

of Michelle's childhood claiming that her

8:42

mother forced her to participate in

8:44

the cult's dark rituals. The

8:47

allegations are truly horrifying. Michelle describes

8:49

being buried alive in a local

8:52

cemetery, being forced to kill innocent

8:54

animals, and witnessing the murder of

8:56

adults and infants alike. The cult,

8:58

according to Michelle's recovered memories, would

9:01

even stage car crashes to cover

9:03

up their gruesome deeds and evade

9:05

law enforcement. But the claims in

9:07

Michelle remembers go beyond mere human

9:10

evil. The book ventures into the

9:12

realm of the supernatural describing encounters

9:14

with Satan himself during a massive

9:16

ceremony called the Feast of the

9:19

Beast. In a twist that

9:21

seems more at home in a Hollywood

9:23

blockbuster than a purported true story, Michelle

9:25

also claims to have been visited by

9:27

the Virgin Mary who provided her with

9:29

a divine plan to defeat Satan. Jesus

9:32

and the Archangel Michael are said

9:34

to have joined this cosmic battle

9:36

with the Virgin Mary ultimately removing

9:39

Michelle's scars and memories of the

9:41

abuse. What's really interesting to me

9:43

here isn't just these sort of

9:45

outlandish claims, but how

9:47

plausible they seem to some people

9:49

at the time. Because it's just

9:52

so wacky and the 80s, they

9:54

weren't just a period of cultural

9:56

shift. And cocaine. And cocaine. But

10:00

there's a lot of psychological

10:02

experimentation, this whole idea of

10:04

recovered memories, right? Becoming the

10:06

latest fad. The problem is,

10:08

you know, these fads have real consequences.

10:11

Yes, they definitely do. The

10:14

media went wide with the story, preying

10:16

on the fears of the public, in

10:18

particular those of the evangelical Christians in

10:20

North America. A quote from

10:23

Pope Paul VI, in Michelle Remembers, from

10:25

November of 1972, also spoke to Catholic

10:27

readers. The

10:31

pontiff said, quote, Evil

10:33

is an effective agent, a living

10:36

spiritual being perverted and perverting. A

10:39

terrible reality. One of the

10:41

greatest needs is defense from the

10:43

evil which is called the devil.

10:45

The question of the devil and

10:47

the influence he can exert on

10:50

individual persons as well as on

10:52

communities, whole societies, or events is

10:54

very important. It should be studied

10:56

again. Remy

10:59

de Roux, Bishop of the Diocese

11:01

of Victoria in BC, made

11:04

a direct quote about the book on September 28,

11:06

1977. The

11:09

Church is well aware of the existence

11:11

of mysterious and evil forces in the

11:14

world. Each person who has had an

11:16

experience of evil imagines Satan in a

11:18

slightly different way, but nobody knows precisely

11:20

what this force of evil looks like.

11:23

I do not question that for

11:25

Michelle this experience was real. In

11:27

time we will know how much

11:30

of it can be validated. It

11:32

will require prolonged and careful study.

11:34

In such mysterious matters, hasty conclusions

11:36

could prove unwise. It may well

11:38

be that for people today to

11:40

hear this message coming from a

11:42

five-year-old child is of

11:44

particular significance. End quote.

11:47

What do I say here? Of

11:50

course the Church is not going to call

11:52

bullshit on it because they always like this

11:54

idea of Virgin Mary as soon as

11:57

that sort of you know brought up.

11:59

they're like they can't just poo poo

12:01

it right because they're the church and

12:04

it's terrible right it's terrible because

12:06

what they're doing by not just

12:09

saying no absolutely not they're

12:11

feeding into the hysteria and

12:14

let's call this what it is either mental

12:16

health issues on one side or scam artistry

12:18

on the other or perhaps both right and

12:21

and someone sold a lot of books out

12:23

of this and made a lot of money

12:25

and that's really what this book was about.

12:28

I think I'll throw a third thing into

12:30

the mix and I think it's someone trying

12:32

to do good but doesn't quite know how

12:35

and and maybe maybe that's what that's what

12:37

led to this maybe Lawrence Pazder and Michelle

12:39

Smith both believed very strongly in what

12:41

was happening. Yeah you're gonna be a lot

12:43

more giving in this episode than me which

12:47

creates a good tension for the

12:49

show. Yeah right only years later

12:51

the books claims were widely criticized

12:53

and discredited many experts in psychology

12:56

and psychiatry have raised concerns about

12:58

the reliability of recovered memories in

13:00

the methods used by Dr. Pazder

13:02

in working with Michelle. There

13:05

is no credible evidence to support

13:07

the allegations of satanic ritual abuse

13:09

in the book and the book

13:11

is now widely seen as a

13:13

work of pseudoscience and sensationalism. By

13:15

this time however it was far too late. The

13:18

damage was done and it was widespread. One

13:21

famous case tied to satanic worship was

13:23

that of David Berkowitz also known as

13:25

the son of Sam. He

13:28

terrorized New York City from 1976 to 1977

13:32

with a series of shootings that left

13:34

six people dead and seven others wounded.

13:37

Using a 44 caliber revolver Berkowitz

13:39

targeted young couples and women often

13:41

attacking them as they sat in

13:43

parked cars. His reign

13:46

of terror gripped the city in fear

13:48

as he taunted police in the media

13:50

with disturbing letters claiming to be driven

13:52

by demonic forces. The killings began

13:54

in July 1976 and continued

13:57

through the summer of 1977. Berkowitz's

14:01

victims included Donalaria, Christine

14:03

Freund, Virginia Voskerikian, Valentina

14:05

Suriani, and Stacey Moskowitz,

14:08

among others. He

14:10

often struck in Queens, the Bronx,

14:12

and Brooklyn, leaving residents across New

14:15

York City in panic. The case

14:17

garnered intense media coverage with Berkowitz

14:19

reveling in the notoriety. After

14:22

his arrest in August 1977, Berkowitz

14:24

initially claimed that he had been

14:27

compelled to kill by a demon-possessed

14:29

dog belonging to his neighbor Sam

14:31

Carr. This bizarre explanation and

14:33

his letters referring to himself as

14:35

the son of Sam fueled public

14:37

fascination with the case. Berkowitz

14:39

pleaded guilty to the murders and

14:42

received multiple life sentences. However,

14:44

in the years following his conviction,

14:46

Berkowitz began to make new claims

14:48

about the killings. He stated

14:50

that he had been part of a

14:52

satanic cult that orchestrated the murders as

14:55

ritual killings. According to Berkowitz,

14:57

he was not the sole perpetrator, but

14:59

rather part of a satanic group of

15:01

sons who carried out the attacks. He

15:03

claimed to have been recruited into

15:06

this cult at parties and gatherings

15:08

in Yonkers, where he witnessed occult

15:10

rituals and animal sacrifices. These

15:12

allegations of satanic involvement

15:14

sparked further investigation and

15:17

conspiracy theories. Journalist Morrie

15:19

Terry became particularly invested in the

15:21

idea of a wider conspiracy, publishing

15:23

a book called The Ultimate Evil

15:25

that linked the son of Sam

15:27

Killings to a network of satanic

15:29

cults across the country. Terry's

15:31

work suggested connections between Berkowitz and

15:33

others, particularly John and Michael Carr,

15:36

the sons of Berkowitz's neighbor Sam

15:38

Carr. You know, it's almost as

15:40

if Satanism was the catch-all excuse

15:43

for anything unexplained or dark during

15:45

this era. And, you know, there's

15:47

this desperate search for an antagonist

15:49

in society and when it can't

15:52

be found, it gets created. And

15:55

in this case, Satan wasn't just a

15:57

concept, he was the scapegoat for mental

15:59

illness. crime and fear of the unknown.

16:01

And what what peeves me is

16:04

that we had nailed the killer, right?

16:06

But A, people are listening to excuses

16:09

from a serial killer and giving this

16:11

loser credibility. Right. Just

16:13

come on people. And B, so-called

16:15

journalists with little integrator cashing in

16:17

on it. Like, Morrie Terry named

16:19

one thing he was known for

16:21

before or after this. Yeah, I

16:24

can't. I can't. And I looked

16:26

it up. There's nothing. Yeah. Yeah,

16:28

this is kind of what he

16:30

hung his hat on. That's for

16:33

sure. Despite these claims, law enforcement

16:35

largely dismissed the notion of a

16:37

satanic conspiracy. Many viewed

16:39

Berkowitz's new story as an attempt

16:41

to shift blame or gain attention.

16:43

While some investigators remained open to

16:46

the possibility of accomplices, no concrete

16:48

evidence has ever emerged to substantiate

16:50

the claims of a widespread satanic

16:53

cult involvement in the son of

16:55

Sam Murders. The debate

16:57

over Berkowitz's claims continues today with

17:00

some true crime enthusiasts and conspiracy

17:02

theorists maintaining that there is more

17:04

to the case than the official

17:06

narrative suggests. However, the

17:09

general consensus among law enforcement and

17:11

most experts is that Berkowitz acted

17:13

alone in his killing spree and

17:16

Satanism had nothing to do with the murders.

17:19

In October 1988, good

17:21

old Geraldo Rivera hosted

17:23

a controversial two-hour primetime

17:25

television special titled Devil

17:27

Worship, Exposing Satan's Underground.

17:29

On NBC, the program

17:31

aimed to investigate and

17:33

expose an alleged widespread

17:35

satanic underground in the

17:37

United States focusing

17:40

on occult crimes, ritual murders,

17:42

and the supposed dangers of

17:44

Satanism. Geraldo Rivera

17:47

makes me laugh.

17:50

I can't believe people ever thought of him

17:52

as a journalist. I think calling Geraldo Rivera

17:54

a journalist is like calling a kid who

17:57

it's a pinata a sculptor. Like

18:00

sure he makes lots of noise and

18:02

breaks stuff, but you can't exactly trust

18:04

him with something fragile and important or

18:06

important like say the truth Yeah, well

18:09

Yeah, Geraldo is an interesting cat.

18:11

I mean He's again.

18:14

He's somebody who tries but

18:17

I think he airs

18:19

on the side of Geraldo if you

18:21

know what I mean and so here's

18:23

his the dichotomy you Trying

18:26

for sensation is what he was trying for

18:28

well He's with Fox News now and we

18:30

know that they tell the truth every

18:33

single time So they actually said in

18:35

depositions that they were entertainment. So

18:37

there you go. There you go So maybe they are

18:39

telling the truth then Geraldo's

18:42

special began with a stark warning

18:44

to viewers Cautioning that the very

18:46

young and impressionable definitely should not

18:48

be watching this program tonight Throughout

18:51

the show Rivera stood before a

18:53

wall of television screens each displaying

18:55

the faces of individuals He would

18:58

interview or discuss during the program

19:01

These included Sean Sellers described

19:03

as an all-american boy awaiting

19:05

execution on death row Charles

19:07

Gervais serving a life sentence

19:10

for a gruesome murder and

19:12

even rock star Ozzy Osborne

19:15

dubbed the Prince of Darkness

19:17

for his controversial lyrics Ozzy

19:20

known for his wacky antics came

19:22

off as probably the most sane and

19:24

thoughtful character in the program The

19:27

special dug into a series

19:29

of sensationalized and often outlandish

19:31

claims about satanic activities across

19:33

America Rivera recounted tales of

19:35

fathers wearing baby feet around their necks

19:38

and young killers drinking their victims blood

19:40

while heavy metal music Played

19:42

in the background He devoted

19:45

significant attention to white men who

19:47

had allegedly committed murders in the

19:49

name of Satan including Charles Manson

19:51

and the aforementioned David Berkowitz throughout

19:54

the program Rivera repeatedly emphasized

19:56

the pervasive nature of the

19:58

supposed satanic threat revealed

22:00

their dubious origins. Many

22:02

stories shared common elements influenced

22:05

more by sensationalist media coverage

22:07

and popular horror tropes than

22:09

actual events. The concept

22:11

of recovered memories, which had been

22:14

used to substantiate many of these

22:16

claims, came under intense

22:18

scrutiny and was primarily discredited

22:20

by mental health professionals. Today

22:23

Heraldo's Devil Worship Special and

22:25

the breeder testimonies it showcased

22:27

are viewed as cautionary tales

22:29

about the dangers of unchecked

22:31

sensationalism in media. They underscore

22:33

the need for rigorous fact-checking

22:35

and the application of scientific

22:37

skepticism when investigating claims of

22:40

widespread conspiracy or hidden threats

22:42

to society. The legacy

22:44

of this period continues to

22:46

influence discussions about moral panics,

22:48

the reliability of eyewitness testimony,

22:50

and the complex interplay between

22:53

media, public perception, and social

22:55

fears. The overall

22:57

tone of Heraldo's Special was

22:59

decidedly alarmist, of course, contributing

23:02

to the growing moral panics surrounding

23:04

Satanism in the United States during

23:06

the 1980s. Yeah,

23:08

what Heraldo showed us, unfortunately, wasn't

23:10

the extent of Satanic cults, but

23:13

the extent of many people's willingness

23:15

to believe in monsters when

23:18

they're sold to them by somebody on the

23:20

telly, right? And it's

23:22

fascinating less than how media can manufacture

23:24

reality in some people's heads. The

23:27

ratings that Heraldo got should be, sort

23:29

of, kind of been rewarding to us

23:31

that we should never have launched social

23:33

media where the feeble-minded get to talk

23:35

to each other about the stupidest stuff.

23:37

Well, we're a few of

23:39

those feeble-minded people, though, Matthew. Yeah, but

23:42

I think we should, you know, I

23:44

love shitposting and bad memes, but there

23:46

should be a breathalyzer

23:48

on your phone to test your IQ if

23:50

you're allowed to post anything. Oh dear. In

23:54

the quiet coastal town of Manhattan Beach,

23:56

California, a storm was brewing that would

23:58

soon engulf North America. and

34:00

abuse of trust. The case

34:02

took a dramatic turn when a

34:04

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Task Force

34:07

took over the investigation. They concluded

34:09

that the original inquiry had been

34:11

driven by emotional hysteria rather than

34:14

solid evidence. A critical

34:16

review of the investigation revealed significant

34:18

flaws in how the children were

34:20

interviewed. The questions were

34:22

found to be leading and

34:24

children were praised for providing

34:27

incriminating answers, potentially influencing their

34:29

testimonies. The aftermath of the

34:31

Martinsville-Sotanic Panic was profound and

34:33

long-lasting. In 2003,

34:36

many of the falsely accused individuals sued

34:38

for wrongful prosecution. Ron and Linda Sterling,

34:40

two of the defendants, received a settlement

34:42

of $924,000 in 2004. John

34:48

Popovich, one of the five police

34:50

officers wrongly accused, was awarded $1.3

34:53

million for

34:55

a malicious prosecution. The

34:58

Martinsville case serves as a stark

35:00

reminder of the power of mass

35:02

hysteria and the importance of proper

35:04

investigative procedures, especially when dealing with

35:06

vulnerable witnesses like children.

35:09

It highlights how quickly fear and

35:11

suspicion can spread through a community,

35:13

leading to devastating consequences for those

35:15

falsely accused. The events

35:17

in Martinsville continue to be studied

35:19

as a cautionary tale about the

35:21

dangers of unchecked allegations and the

35:23

need for careful, unbiased investigation. In

35:27

cases involving child abuse.

35:30

Yeah, I mean, like you said,

35:32

Martinsville does stand out

35:34

as a reminder of really how

35:36

easily communities can devour themselves when

35:39

fear takes root. Small communities

35:41

devour themselves. And

35:43

what's really tragic here is how the very

35:46

people meant to protect, law

35:48

enforcement, parents, teachers, both

35:51

became the victims and the perpetrators in

35:53

this narrative. And a

35:55

narrative that has no basis in reality.

35:58

So it's like everyone.

36:00

Yeah, completely insane. The

36:32

brutal nature of the crimes shocked the

36:34

small community and led to intense pressure

36:37

on law enforcement to solve the case

36:39

quickly. From the outset,

36:41

investigators believed the murders had cult

36:43

overtones and may have been part

36:45

of a satanic ritual. This assumption

36:47

colored the entire investigation and led

36:49

police to focus on local teenagers

36:52

Damian Eccles, Jason Baldwin, Jesse Miss

36:54

Kelly Jr., known as the West

36:56

Memphis 3. Eccles,

36:58

in particular, drew suspicion due

37:00

to his interest in occultism,

37:02

black clothing, and non-conformist attitudes.

37:05

So I'll jump in here. So I

37:08

was aware of the satanic

37:10

panic and its ridiculousness in the mid-80s

37:12

when I was young. And

37:14

I have to say, I actually intentionally played

37:16

with it by being a goth in

37:18

a small town just

37:20

to raise the heckles of others. Because

37:24

I think maybe in some ways,

37:26

Mike, I've thought of this, perhaps

37:29

me intentionally looking different and standing out before

37:31

I really came out as gay was sort

37:34

of a tester or something. Yeah,

37:36

that makes sense. I'm not sure. That's

37:38

sort of in the back of my

37:40

head. But the

37:42

truth is, from day one I always felt different

37:44

and a bit of an outsider from many of

37:46

the views in my hometown at the time.

37:50

And that being said, I'm sure Strathroy

37:52

has changed and grown and the mindsets

37:54

have changed and grown. So I'm not

37:56

crapping on my old hometown. It was

37:58

the thinking of the time, right? like

38:00

I'm Facebook friends with a lot of people

38:02

that still live there who are great open-minded

38:04

people. Sure. But these

38:07

moral panics, you know, I'm

38:09

very aware of them because it's usually

38:11

us minorities that get it in the

38:13

end, the gays, the Jews, the blacks,

38:15

the First Nations. You know,

38:17

we often get the brunt of

38:19

any sort of panics, right, and

38:21

we've covered that in other episodes.

38:24

So this is why, I think in some ways,

38:26

Mike, this is why I'm so out there in

38:29

many ways. You know, I do camp it up

38:31

sometimes, but it's kind

38:33

of as an FU to all of

38:35

this, right? Yeah. You

38:37

know, it's kind of like, come and get me, Mofo, I'll

38:40

take you on, because, you know, I'm

38:42

in a strong

38:44

position in society in a lot of ways,

38:46

right? I'm smart, I'm educated, I'm employed, but

38:49

a lot of people haven't

38:51

had the luck that I've

38:54

had in life. Yeah. And, you

38:56

know, if you're poor or marginalized

38:58

somewhere else and,

39:02

you know, can't stand up for yourself, that's

39:04

perhaps why I do it so much

39:07

sometimes, because I'm hoping to be

39:09

a bit of an example. And I

39:11

don't know, it sounds ridiculous, but a bit of

39:13

protector by just being out there and being who

39:15

I am with my

39:18

voice, right? There you go. Experts

39:20

argued that Eccles was the ringleader of

39:22

a satanic cult and that the murders

39:24

were part of an occult ceremony. The

39:27

prosecution relied heavily on Eccles' interest

39:29

in wicca and heavy metal music

39:31

as evidence of his guilt, a

39:33

coerced false confession from Jesse Miss Kelly

39:36

Jr. who had an

39:38

intellectual disability provided the foundation for

39:40

the case against the three teens.

39:42

Although Miss Kelly's confession was filled

39:45

with inaccuracies and he quickly recanted,

39:48

it was used to arrest all three

39:50

and was presented as evidence in Miss

39:52

Kelly's trial, the media's sensationalized coverage of

39:55

the alleged satanic elements further prejudice

39:58

the community against the defendants. of

44:00

resilience and spiritual growth in the

44:02

face of extreme adversity." Yeah, death

44:04

sentence would be definitely extremely adverse.

44:07

Damien appears to have made

44:09

lemons from lemonade. Yeah,

44:12

and I think on a higher

44:14

plane, his story is a reminder

44:16

of the human need for meaning,

44:19

especially in times of extreme suffering.

44:21

And he used occultism as a

44:23

way to survive, uh, not

44:26

escape reality. And that's

44:29

the distinction that makes this story

44:31

all the more remarkable to me.

44:33

Yeah. Excluding the West Memphis Three,

44:35

one of the problematic features in

44:37

many of the allegations brought forward

44:40

during the Satanic panic epidemic is

44:42

the controversial practice of recovered memories.

44:45

Recovered memory therapy techniques, like

44:47

those used by Lawrence Pazder

44:49

with Michelle Smith, face

44:51

several significant criticisms. Primary

44:54

among them was that the methods

44:56

used in recovered memory therapy were

44:58

highly suggestive and could lead to

45:00

the creation of false memories rather

45:02

than the recovery of genuine repressed

45:04

experiences. Research demonstrated

45:06

that suggestive memory techniques could

45:08

cause individuals to report memories

45:11

from increasingly earlier ages, even

45:14

before it was developmentally possible to

45:16

form such memories. Critics

45:18

argued that the concept of

45:20

repressed memories, especially those of

45:23

extreme trauma like satanic ritual

45:25

abuse, lacked scientific evidence. The

45:28

psychoanalytic notion of repression as an

45:30

automatic defense mechanism that pushes traumatic

45:32

memories into an inaccessible part of

45:34

the mind was not supported by

45:37

empirical evidence. Therapists were

45:39

criticized for uncritically accepting the

45:41

recovered memories as true without

45:44

seeking external corroboration. This

45:46

led to false allegations and in

45:48

some cases, wrongful convictions. The

45:51

inability to distinguish between true

45:53

and false memories without external

45:55

evidence was a significant concern.

45:58

Many of the methods employed to

46:00

recover memories such as hypnosis, guided

46:02

imagery, and dream interpretation were criticized

46:05

for their potential to implant false

46:07

memories. A favorite

46:09

tool for some therapists, hypnotic

46:11

regression, in particular, was identified

46:13

as a powerful means of

46:15

creating false memories. Critics

46:18

pointed out that victims of

46:20

genuine childhood sexual abuse typically

46:22

have difficulty forgetting not remembering

46:24

their experiences. The focus

46:26

on uncovering repressed memories was

46:28

seen as misguided and potentially

46:30

harmful. Some experts argued

46:33

that recovered memory therapy had a

46:35

high potential for harm and lacked

46:37

therapeutic benefits for clients. The

46:40

risk of false memory creation outweighed

46:42

any potential advantages of the technique.

46:45

The ethical implications of using

46:47

suggestive techniques to recover potentially

46:49

false memories, especially when these

46:51

memories led to serious accusations

46:53

and legal proceedings, were heavily

46:55

criticized. Critics noted

46:57

that many of the recovered memories

47:00

seemed to be influenced by popular

47:02

culture and fiction rather than reflecting

47:04

genuine experiences. This was

47:06

particularly evident in cases like Michelle

47:08

remembers, where investigations failed to corroborate

47:11

any of the book's claims. Sadly,

47:13

the damage done by the satanic panic

47:16

might have led some actual ritual abuse

47:18

allegations to have fallen through the cracks.

47:21

These claims cannot be dismissed out of hand

47:24

and must be investigated case by case. Law

47:27

enforcement and other agencies face

47:29

a significant challenge in investigating

47:31

ritual abuse claims, requiring a

47:33

careful balance of thoroughness and

47:35

sensitivity. The key lies

47:37

in adopting an evidence-based approach,

47:39

focusing on concrete physical evidence,

47:42

and employing careful interviewing techniques,

47:44

especially with child victims. And

47:48

with experts from various fields,

47:50

including mental health professionals and

47:52

forensic specialists, is crucial for

47:55

comprehensively evaluating claims. Critical

47:57

assessment of allegations is essential, with

50:00

rights. Yeah, I think if

50:02

anything, the satanic panic taught us

50:04

how easily we can mistake symbols

50:06

for reality. You know, modern Satanism,

50:09

far from the monstrousness portrayed in

50:11

the 80s, is actually rebellion against

50:13

dogma and a statement about individuality.

50:16

And ironically, it's more about freedom than it

50:18

is about evil. And I actually think it's

50:20

quite- I don't think it's about evil at

50:22

all. I think it's quite libertarian in fact,

50:25

right? I think that people that are involved

50:27

with it and

50:30

calling it Satanism are kind of doing it

50:32

with a wry smile. Yeah, maybe. Aspects of

50:34

satanic panic are still around today. QAnon

50:37

has adopted similar tactics and

50:39

narratives, spreading baseless claims about

50:42

a global cabal of Satan-worshipping

50:44

pedophiles. This

50:46

modern incarnation of satanic panic

50:48

has gained traction through social

50:50

media and has even influenced

50:52

some political discourse. The

50:55

resurgence of these unfounded fears

50:57

highlights the enduring power of

50:59

conspiracy theories and moral panics

51:01

in American culture. It

51:03

reminds us of the potential

51:06

consequences when such baseless accusations

51:08

gain widespread acceptance affecting

51:10

individuals and communities and even

51:13

shaping public policy. Yeah,

51:15

and in the end, panic never really

51:17

dies, it just mutates. Today's

51:20

satanic panic may wear a different

51:22

mask, but the core is the

51:25

same. It's a

51:27

fear of what we don't understand, coupled with-

51:29

and I think importantly, coupled with the desire

51:31

to control it. It's

51:34

about control, right? Get

51:37

your hands off of me. Get your stinkin'

51:39

paws off me, you damn dirty ape. If

51:43

you want to learn more, watch

51:45

the Canadian documentary, Satan Wants You.

51:48

I love this film. From their

51:51

website, quote, Sean Horlor

51:53

and Steve J. Adams are

51:55

the directors, writers, and executive

51:57

producers of Satan Wants You.

58:00

and that's right. A hundred mile house is

58:02

incredible. Have you been up there? I have,

58:04

yep. Yeah, because it's what you think Canada

58:06

would feel like if you

58:08

didn't know what Canada was like. Yeah. You

58:10

know what I mean? It's like all these

58:12

trees. It used to be called Bridge Creek

58:14

House because of the creek that's there and

58:16

I don't know if you knew this Mike,

58:18

but it is the log home capital of

58:21

North America. So I think

58:23

Gabriel in Kelowna is building log home. Building

58:30

log homes. Oh, okay.

58:33

Because you know, if

58:35

he's listening to the show and maybe, you

58:38

know, gets caught under a landslide of

58:40

logs or something, it could be bad.

58:42

Go take a log in your hat.

58:44

Oh boy. Well, thanks

58:47

for calling Gabe. Much appreciated. Thank you. I called you

58:49

Gabe. I don't know if that's what you go by.

58:51

I'm sure it is. Everybody

58:54

I know whose name is Gabriel goes

58:57

by Gabe. And if not, it is

58:59

now. Yeah. That's what we're calling you.

59:02

Let's move on. We've got another. Obviously

59:04

Steve. It's Sam calling

59:06

from Pennsylvania. I've called a couple of times

59:08

before I'm related to

59:10

La Corrivo might end up

59:13

killing someone if I follow family lineage.

59:15

Who knows? Maybe

59:17

be accused of witchcraft, but that's

59:20

not why I'm calling. I have a very

59:22

odd question for you. Um,

59:25

recently my fiance and I just went

59:27

to the Pennsylvania Renaissance

59:29

fair and it was

59:31

so much fun. We love it because we're huge

59:34

nerds. Um, but

59:36

I was wondering if in Canada, you guys

59:38

have anything like that? And if you have

59:40

absolutely no idea what I'm talking about, please

59:43

look it up so that you know what I'm talking about. Um,

59:46

and if you do have stuff like that,

59:48

is it popular? Do a lot of people

59:50

go to it? Um, and

59:53

if not, why not? We

59:55

need to get the Renaissance fair vibe up

59:57

there to Canada for you guys.

1:00:00

Okay, that's it. Thank you for everything you

1:00:02

guys do. Love listening to the show. I

1:00:04

hope you have a wonderful rest of your

1:00:06

day. Bye! Sami

1:00:09

Sam Sam, thank you for calling. Yes,

1:00:11

well there you go. Yes,

1:00:14

she's called before La Corriveau, the

1:00:17

widow Corriveau who we talked about

1:00:19

in an episode, but Renfaires,

1:00:22

Matthew. Yes, of course we

1:00:24

have Renfaires here. Yeah, we

1:00:26

do. I

1:00:30

know some people who attend Renfaires. Of

1:00:32

course you do. Hey, your

1:00:35

friends are weirdos, Mike. You're

1:00:37

one of them. You're

1:00:40

one of my weirdo friends. This

1:00:43

is true. But yeah, I mean, yes,

1:00:45

absolutely it's a thing. I personally

1:00:48

haven't gone, but you

1:00:50

know, it's like people dressing up

1:00:52

in Renaissance

1:00:55

costumes and those kind of things and

1:00:57

performing little skits and all that kind

1:00:59

of stuff and acting as though they

1:01:02

were living in the Renaissance. One of

1:01:05

my favorite memes online

1:01:07

comes from a Renaissance fair

1:01:10

and it's people dressed as

1:01:13

Star Trek cast members showing

1:01:15

up at the Renaissance fair.

1:01:17

So it's like, oh, there's

1:01:19

a Renaissance fair on a

1:01:21

planet that the Enterprise has

1:01:23

discovered. And so there's

1:01:25

these anachronistic Star Trek folks. Wow, that's

1:01:27

kind of meta, isn't it? Yeah, it's

1:01:30

fun. Yeah. So

1:01:32

Sam from Pennsylvania. Mm-hmm. She is

1:01:34

the High Wicked Priestess of the

1:01:36

Seventh Order of Steve the Snorer.

1:01:39

Oh, okay, of course she is.

1:01:41

Yeah. That's it for

1:01:43

this week's voicemails. Again, you can leave

1:01:45

us one at 1-877-327-5786 or

1:01:52

1-877-DARKPTN. We'd

1:01:54

love to hear from you, even if it is just to

1:01:56

say hi and to tell us to go shit in our

1:01:59

hats. You

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