0:02

Hey, everyone Welcome back to another season of

0:04

data driven health radio. I'm your host, Dave Course on ski. On

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this show, we dive deep into how you

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can use data to measure, manage and optimize

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your health with latest science technology.

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This shows brought to you by heads up, which is our web and mobile app designed

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com. If you've got comments, questions or feedback on

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this show, shoot us an email, support at heads up

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health dot com. We'd love to hear from you. And with that said, let's get into

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our next exciting episode. Tom Si.

0:49

Good to see you. I'm I'm glad you're here. You know, I first

0:54

remember meeting you, this was around the Christmas holidays,

0:58

and it I must have been... I don't know. 3 or 4 years ago. We had

1:02

dinner at The Henry. The Henry. Thank you. And

1:07

we had just gotten connected somehow. I forget

1:09

how. But You guys were the Og,

1:13

and you had really in my opinion, brought

1:16

the first real ice baths

1:19

to the consumer market now, what better place

1:22

to start a ice bath company than the hottest city in North America. Well, this is

1:26

what blew my mind because I'm sitting down with eager at dinner and he's like this

1:30

sucker will pump ice all through the Arizona summer.

1:34

And it's hot as balls as here, You

1:36

know? We're hitting a hundred and 20. So

1:38

not only was it able to keep up outdoors in the Arizona summer, but

1:43

I gotta be honest, I'd I've been in this industry for a long time prior.

1:47

And you guys were the first ones that kinda broke out

1:50

onto the scene. So a lot has changed since then. And

1:55

the concept has really exploded since then. But you guys

2:00

are still here, we're in your incredible facility.

2:02

You're still building And you know, what I

2:05

respect most about Morocco and also about you

2:07

personally is your commitment to putting out high quality

2:11

information and information that's backed by science, and and I

2:16

read all your blog posts and their off

2:18

to do. Yeah. So maybe Tom, what will

2:21

be helpful is, I know the origin story because you and

2:24

your your cofounder told it to me over

2:27

dinner, but it's a good 1. So we'd

2:29

love to hear the origin story, and then let's go from there. I'd never heard of

2:33

Wim hof. I didn't know anything about this ice baths,

2:37

but my former student, Jason S. Mh. He

2:39

invited me to come out and do the wim hop breathing and you by all the

2:43

bags of ice it's circle k, and I'd

2:45

been taking cold showers, which made me angry.

2:48

I hate them. And it turns out there's some signs behind that too 50 partial. Is

2:52

not the same as whole body, cold water

2:54

immersion. Whole body gets you some dive reflex

2:57

relaxation. Partial we'll never do that for you. Your heart rate goes up and it never

3:00

comes back down. So it's no wonder that

3:02

a cold shower makes me angry, but an ice bath relaxes me. It's just... I didn't

3:06

know that until I went to my first Wim hof. And this is

3:10

20 18. Yeah. Well, Jason, and I wanted to

3:14

keep this up, especially because in Phoenix, the

3:16

tap water gets up on, like, 90 degrees

3:18

Fahrenheit no cold challenge. Right. You get, like, a

3:21

couple of weeks in the winter. And that's it.

3:24

But we got sick of buying all the ice. You gotta go down to the quickie

3:27

martin. And you gotta get 200 pounds, and

3:29

then you put it in the stock tank, and then 15 minutes later, it feels like

3:33

it's all melted. Yep. Because it's a hundred

3:35

and 20 degrees in the backyard. So we're both engineers and Jason said well,

3:39

we gotta be able to do this. So I got a credit card out, and we

3:42

took some old dorm fridge apart, and we

3:44

bought some parts and We made an insulated

3:47

stock tank and we made ice. We had

3:49

a little party. People came over. They loved

3:52

it. And Jeremy Mu said he wanted to

3:54

buy 1. And so Jason, I kinda looked at each other, like, this should really be

3:58

a business. That's the beacon right there my me. When people are pulling the product out

4:03

of you Trying to tell you go into

4:05

business. So we did, and I thought it

4:08

was gonna be too a week or something.

4:10

I thought it was gonna be like a niche hobby. I'm a university

4:13

professor. I teach engineering at Asu. I didn't

4:16

think I was gonna be running an ice bath business,

4:19

but Ben greenfield put us in the boundless

4:21

book. And people,

4:24

they listen to Ben... If they... If Benson

4:27

says, you gotta get a Morocco, People buy

4:29

Mar because they trust Ben. They know that

4:31

he tried everything under the sun. A guy

4:34

who's gonna put stem cells in his dick.

4:36

You know, is gonna try a lot of

4:39

extreme things when he says this works. His

4:41

audience believes in him. So now we're in

4:43

the boundless book, and the business is picking

4:46

up. Jason and Adrian quit their jobs.

4:49

But something different happened to me. I was separated from my wife at the

4:54

time. I'm going out on the dating pool, and I'm really self conscious about how I

4:58

look. I'd lost a lot of weight, and I said, well, I should be doing

5:02

the blood test. You know I gotta get serious about my health. So I got the

5:06

full male panel And my Psa came back 7.

5:11

Normal. They said is 4. So I'm looking

5:14

at this lab report. I'm like, oh my gosh I'm almost Like, twice. I'm in the

5:17

dangers aren't suppress... Cancer? Is that is that

5:20

what they were? That's what's going through my mind. Like, as soon as you take the

5:23

Psa to the Internet. Mh. They're saying way you're gonna dia cancer. And you're not? Like,

5:28

all it means is you have an inflamed prostate and that can be indicative of prostate

5:32

cancer. But what do I know? Like, I'm

5:34

an engineer. And it says well, you should

5:37

go to your medical doctor and you have a prostate exam. You probably have a biopsy

5:41

and I don't wanna do any of that. Instead, I started talking to other guys. And

5:45

it turns I'm now 58 at the time, I was probably 52.

5:50

Everybody had a prostate story. I was talking

5:52

to guys older than me, some of them younger than me. And it's kind of a

5:56

difficult topic, but, you know, I'd say, hey,

5:58

you know, I have a question. Like, I just got my Psa back. And Have you

6:02

ever had your Psa tested and all the

6:04

guys older than me had been through something and they all had horror stories. I didn't

6:08

wanna go back to centralized medicine and have

6:11

a biopsy that could lead to a sepsis

6:13

infection or false positive. So I decided I was gonna do ke

6:17

ketosis and ice baths every dang day. That's

6:21

when I got really serious. I brought my

6:23

Psa down. I'm still doing the same blood

6:26

tests. And my testosterone went up through the roof.

6:30

I was like, over 1100 nano per decade,

6:33

purely accidental. And when

6:36

I saw that number, and it all... It

6:39

had that, you know, big warning out of

6:41

range too high I thought, I figure out

6:44

what's going on A scientist I'll go to the library.

6:48

There was a paper I found from 19 91.

6:51

And these Japanese study and young men, they

6:54

did ice bath after exercise, which was what

6:56

everybody does. They measured testosterone and lu hormone.

6:59

If you do the ice bath after the exercise, the testosterone and the lu hormone that

7:05

stimulates testosterone production you're gon adds, they go

7:07

down. Sure. Everybody Yes.

7:10

Acutely at Yeah. But but then I presume...

7:13

It's about... The study was short term. It

7:15

wasn't long term, but it said, if you do your cold for recovery,

7:19

you will reduce your testosterone and your lu

7:22

hormone, which is consistent with the other literature,

7:25

consistent with Human advice don't do the cold after your workout. Yep.

7:29

At least wait 4 hours because you will

7:32

diminish your your ana antibiotic gains. Your muscle

7:35

gain. I've heard that. Well, I wrote up a little article about

7:39

my experience, and Said, look, there's this Japanese

7:41

study. I think this is what's going on. Nobody read it. Because nobody's going to Morales

7:46

c forge dot com at this time for

7:48

any kind of advice I was. Thank you, Dave. Then we go through

7:53

Covid, and Covid really shut me out of

7:55

the classroom. So instead of thinking

7:59

wasn't gonna be kind of a part time thing. Everybody goes nuts for at home health.

8:04

Everybody's health conscious. And I'm frankly not as busy at Asu

8:09

as I thought I was gonna be because

8:11

of the Covid lockdown. Well,

8:15

I poured myself into growing Mo,

8:19

and I kept getting these stories of other

8:22

people Dean Hall, head Leukemia, and then he swam

8:25

the entire length of the W River, which is cold by the way, and it took

8:28

him 3 weeks, and he came out of that river, and add Leukemia anymore. Like all

8:32

of these miraculous health transformation stories. I'd write another article, and

8:36

I'd write another article, and Google didn't care.

8:40

But then it's post Covid. I'm in iceland.

8:43

I'm traveling now and I'm there with my girlfriend, Aj, and I get off the plane.

8:47

And we're gonna see the northern lights. It's like December, you know,

8:51

and my phone's blowing up, and it's all

8:53

these text messages telling me, I'm on the

8:55

Joe Rogan show. I'm like, what the hell is? I think

8:58

I would be the first person to know if I was on Joe Rogan. And so

9:02

I called somebody up, you know, what's? Like, what are you talking about? Goes Joe is

9:06

reading your article. Heath about the testosterone,

9:09

liver king just got out for j, You

9:11

know? And now he said Derek moore plates more dates, and he's got David Go on

9:15

the show and they're all talking about doing the ice bath before the workout for the

9:20

testosterone boot, and he put your picture up there. That was all the world

9:25

needed to hear. Once Joe said, I'm doing

9:28

this. It's really hard, and it's working for

9:30

me. People started writing to me from all over

9:33

the world about what Still has 1 though. Correct? He's got a Morocco. Yeah. And for

9:38

20 23, he really... He wouldn't shut up

9:41

about it. Like, he had Jim Ga on

9:43

his show. Now Jim's a famous comedian, But

9:46

Jim is famous for eating junk food. You

9:48

know, like his whole routine is how

9:51

unhealthy he is. Mh. So Joe's like, I

9:53

wanna tell you about I fast. They really work. There, you know, he's talking to the

9:57

guide, the anti health comedian about his health stuff, and you can see

10:01

this in Google trends searches for cold plunge and ice bath are

10:05

going through the roof. At the time there

10:08

were 2 or 3 companies besides us. And

10:12

they didn't even make Ice, but there were these these sort of innovative companies at the

10:16

leading edge. Then you can see it in 20 23, all these Chinese chiller, inflatable tub,

10:21

like, the instagram feed now is is is littered

10:25

with them every type barrels and inflatable and

10:29

everything under the sun. David, it's given the

10:31

industry a really bad name. Sure. Yeah. People

10:33

are starting to call us and ask us

10:36

questions about the things that they've seen on other

10:38

people's websites as if we were 1 of

10:41

the same companies, So we just wrapped up a study of

10:45

warranty, terms of service and return refund policies in

10:49

the Cold Fund industry. Oh, good 1.

10:51

It's stunning. The market. Yeah. The restock fees, the warranty

10:57

exclusions. Like, if you buy from 1 of

10:59

our competitors, and it shows up broken.

11:02

They will mail you a new part, but you gotta pay the labor and the shipping

11:06

on the part. So you gotta find your own plumber and your own electrician to install

11:10

their broken part. You've decided you're not happy with that. You can ship it back. For

11:14

a refund as long as it's still in the original packaging. Yeah. I've heard a lot

11:17

of these these kinds of like, Yeah. Because they're all stories basically. Feel about

11:22

crap units and stuff like that. That's where

11:25

our industry is going sadly. But I spend

11:27

my 20 23 writing a book. It's got more than 600

11:32

scientific citations in it, and there's, you know, 13

11:35

chapters on all these different aspects.

11:38

Including the risks and dangers and the contra

11:40

indications and are you working on metabolism? Are

11:43

you working on brain health? Or are you working on sexual performance and function and fertility.

11:48

So I spent my 20 23 in the

11:51

library, and I probably should have spent to Deep on Instagram buying a bunch of ads

11:55

and doing some sensational claims and things like

11:58

that. Well, the content you put out.

12:01

I get a ton of stuff coming through

12:03

my inbox, but I read every single 1

12:06

because I know it's going to be

12:09

objective. And it's gonna be well cited,

12:13

and it's gonna be information I can trust, and this is a therapy that I wanna

12:16

use beyond health. So maybe you could have gone and done that,

12:20

but I think the... I would've stun it

12:23

at Instagram ads. I do too. You know,

12:25

But the value of what you're building is also a compounding asset.

12:29

Of all of that information and the brand and the trust and no 1 else

12:33

can really. People tell me that. They write to me.

12:36

And they thank me for putting out these articles. Thank you. Every time the reason I

12:40

I get a nice snow on point. Yep. That's because I've changed my whole academic career.

12:44

I used to be a sustainability guy. I

12:47

used to be all about the environment. And I've changed my focus, and I think

12:51

it was really Covid that redirected me because we have a public health

12:55

crisis in this country. You know that life

12:57

expectancy in the United States peaked in 20

13:00

18. It's not Covid that has driven it

13:02

down it was going down before we hit the pandemic grade. So what

13:08

is going on and it's all metabolism. All

13:10

the chronic illnesses, all the illnesses that are

13:13

associated with aging, all the increased rates of

13:16

mortality, They tie back to metabolic dysfunction. You

13:19

know, how to fix your metabolism. Well... I

13:22

mean, yes, you can eliminate the seed oils, you can get your sleep right, You can

13:25

get your light right. All these things are fine. But if all you can do is

13:29

get into your ice bath 2, 3 minutes

13:31

a day. You're gonna build your brown fat. You're gonna increase your insulin since ti, you're

13:35

gonna resolve that metabolic dysfunction. You're gonna stimulate

13:38

the bio and you're gonna extend your life.

13:41

And that's without diet changes. That's without exercise,

13:44

which, by the way, I recommend

13:47

it's just that we don't have the cold

13:49

that our bodies are expecting. Instead, we have

13:51

heated leather seats. Yeah. Well, that's a good segue. Because before

13:55

this interview, I said, hey, If I'm coming in this with fresh eyes,

13:59

and I wanted to know what are some of the

14:02

the top 5 were the top x I

14:04

said to you. Health benefits of who should

14:07

use ice bath

14:09

what would those be? You sent me that list. So I'd love to go through them

14:13

briefly and talk about them. But before we

14:15

do, I think it's also important just to make a subtle distinction

14:20

between ice baths and

14:23

cold plunge. And so maybe you could just clarify that.

14:27

For people because there is a difference. They

14:29

both have therapeutic value, but there's a 45

14:33

degree exposure. You know, and then there's 32 degree exposure.

14:37

I think I heard Joe Rogan say that anything above 38 just isn't that interesting to

14:42

him anymore. That doesn't mean everyone has to go down

14:44

to that level. There's incredible stuff that can

14:47

happen across the spectrum of those temperatures, but

14:50

could you just clarify that for us? There

14:52

was a conversation that Joe had with Gary

14:54

B. And Gary's is now so well known.

14:57

He's got a super popular like podcast himself,

14:59

and Gary says to Joe. I haven't seen

15:02

a lot of evidence that there, you know, any benefit from going down to those cold

15:06

temperatures. So why do you do it? And Joe goes?

15:09

Because it sucks worse. And I thought... That's

15:11

our new marketing tagline line. Right? There. Mar

15:13

coast sucks worse, and that's why you should

15:15

do it. He's right after you get acclimated,

15:19

38 39 is boring. Now when you're first

15:22

starting out and it takes about 2 weeks to build that brown fat and build your

15:26

thermal regulation mechanisms. Are, like, it happens pretty

15:28

quick. Sure. The fat remodel, your blood vessels

15:32

remodel But after you get acclimated,

15:36

40 degrees fahrenheit... It doesn't give you the

15:38

same gas reflex. It doesn't give you the same psychological

15:41

shock, you get in there. And Joe is

15:44

looking for that fight flight. He's looking for

15:46

that parasympathetic nervous system

15:49

activation. That's what I'm looking for too, and you

15:53

need to consistently do it with the ice

15:56

chunks floating in the water to get those

15:58

psychological benefits But if all you're trying to do is

16:01

reverse your type 2 diabetes, which is huge.

16:04

If you're trying to get off the insulin, then 40 gonna be fine, you can get

16:07

a lot of metabolic benefits in the low

16:10

forties, and most of these cheap chiller companies

16:13

can get down to the... Not outside in Arizona summer. But if you're inside most of

16:17

them can do it and they're cheaper than. Well, you know, another thing, Tom is, also,

16:24

you you mean that a remark from Joe.

16:26

It just sucks more. You know what I mean? Which which implies there is some pain

16:30

to go through. But in my experience,

16:34

it actually is a spiritual experience. Yeah.

16:38

Because you are learning how to work with

16:42

your own mind. And you are learning how

16:45

to regulate your physiology through

16:47

an extreme experience. And

16:50

1 of the things I learned many years ago when I was doing intense the pos

16:54

meditation. Was they taught you how to

16:59

sit for very long periods of time, and

17:01

you got really physically uncomfortable,

17:04

but you were trained

17:07

to not react in a positive or negative way. Now, that

17:10

doesn't mean you don't feel. It just doesn't... It means you don't react.

17:15

And what that taught me was how to

17:17

be in situations in life that were unpleasant,

17:20

but not to have to react in a

17:23

way that was unpleasant. That's the part you

17:25

get to choose. How do you respond? And

17:28

in the yoga traditions, they call they call

17:31

cold exposure Ish. What you probably have heard of, which means

17:35

when you can get in that cold and

17:39

get through the shock experience, survive that first

17:42

60 seconds a hundred and 20 seconds. They

17:45

said If you can survive that,

17:48

you can survive any challenge in life. Yep.

17:51

You know? So for me, the spiritual experience,

17:53

first of all means Am I able to go mind over matter

17:57

on this. You know, that alone is like

18:00

a massive, massive challenge

18:03

and experience just to learn how to regulate

18:05

yourself through it. But then when you go

18:08

to all this crazy shit, you and I are doing starting companies and jumping off a

18:11

cliff with no parachute. You know, Metaphorically.

18:15

Metaphorically, It's like, hey. I can do that. You know, I can

18:19

get through any challenging experience in life. So

18:22

even when I go to my place since Scottsdale, I'll see people of women or a

18:26

man approaching the cold plunge, And they they go through a an experience

18:31

where they close their eyes. They center themselves.

18:34

They'll maybe even do a little bit of yoga and some breath work. You know, they're

18:37

really getting out of their head and going inward

18:41

to this experience, like, that's the part that

18:44

I really geek out on. I think you're on the right track. That's the psychological.

18:47

What I I used to work in infrastructure

18:50

resilience, and I still do, do consulting for

18:52

the army corps and for the navy. So it's disaster response and recovery.

18:57

I'm much more interested in human resilience. Now,

18:59

because the resilience isn't in the concrete or in the steel or in the dams, it's

19:03

in the creative response to the disaster or to the stress or

19:07

to the catastrophe, whatever it is. So I've

19:09

gotten really curious now about psychology

19:13

in a way that has surprised me because I'm a trained civil and environmental

19:18

engineer. I've talked to probably a dozen

19:22

super elite athletes, all different sports. So we're

19:24

talking golfers, Nfl,

19:27

Ml b. These are people you know, signing guaranteed multimillion million dollar contracts

19:33

playing in the pro bowl, playing in the

19:35

Super Bowl, and they tell me the same thing that

19:38

Joseph. They'll spend what feels like 15 minutes since

19:42

probably only like 45 seconds, but staring down

19:45

at that Mo. Seeing that ice. They say the worst part

19:50

of the ice bath is the 15 seconds

19:53

before they get into the ice bath. Because we all have this voice inside our head.

19:57

Yeah. It says, you know, I I can

19:59

probably... I can maybe skip a day. Like, I don't, I'm not even on Instagram right

20:03

now. Nobody's even watching, you know? And this

20:06

these are people, like Fred Warner. He makes

20:09

12 tackle in the Super Bowl and you think this guy fearless. Right? He goes,

20:14

sometimes that cold water, like, you know?

20:18

Joe calls it his little bit. You know, it just turns him into a little bitch.

20:22

Wow. Well, when Joe was talking to David Go. And you, stay hard. Right, David, is

20:27

like, the brave most courageous person he goes,

20:30

there is nothing that will make you question

20:32

everything in your life, like cold water.

20:35

I didn't know at the time. The data Go has ren syndrome. Ren syndrome.

20:41

Is this like, it's a feedback loop it's

20:43

a psycho physiological over reaction to the cold. So his

20:47

months after Go was on humor podcast, and

20:50

he posted pictures of his fingers, and they

20:53

were chalk white because They had no blood

20:55

in him. This is his Ren reaction to

20:57

the familiar that. I have a loved 1 who is dealing with that same Yeah. As

21:01

do I. A aj used to suffer from

21:03

nods, and now there are 2 case studies

21:06

even though you would think ren not is a contra indication to bath, There are 2

21:09

case studies. 1 that I've supervised with A

21:12

j, and named Mike Mu has also supervised

21:14

a woman who runs the high intensity health

21:16

podcast. And they both use the bath to

21:20

overcome their rey and sure enough, there is

21:23

something called exposure there sometimes it's called stress

21:25

and therapy. Mh. Where you... Yeah. You gradually

21:29

yourself yourself. Yep. Exactly. That's psychological

21:33

benefit. When you're doing the exposure therapy, you're breaking

21:37

this psychological physiological feedback loop, and then you come out

21:41

of the water, Feeling I you've just cheated

21:44

death for the people who say, well, I

21:46

hate the cold. Gordon Ryan. He's on the

21:48

Joe Rogan show. There's something... You need to

21:50

know about me. He he's, like, fucking hate the gold. He was so proud of himself

21:54

because he did, like, 45, and then Joe said, No. You gotta do

21:58

33, you know, just like I do. So

22:01

he did. And then he got a Costco

22:03

because there's something once you've discovered it, you don't wanna give

22:07

it up. You're like, I'm gonna go back. I'm gonna start every day with that win.

22:12

And then everything else in my life seems like it's nothing. So, you know, getting

22:17

down to some of the brass tax here. You you've hinted at some of the metabolic

22:21

benefits of this. We all know that

22:25

metabolic dysfunction is epidemic. There's different ways to tackle it, but

22:30

I asked you. Could you lay out... These are Tom Si top 5.

22:34

So let's run through them here, Tom and

22:37

And the first is the first reason you'd wanna maybe do this

22:40

in the first place is metabolic

22:43

dysfunction. So that could be

22:46

insulin resistance. It could be obesity weight gain. It could

22:50

be Pcos There's lots of things that happen or e

22:54

dysfunction. There's lots of things that that really... The root cause

22:57

is insulin resistant including cancer, including heart disease, including

23:02

alzheimer's. Disease can't exactly right. The big ones origins

23:06

and the metabolism. And I've read some of your

23:09

posts before. And, you know, the 1 thing I've yet to do, which I normally wear

23:13

a Cg. A dex home. Yeah continuous glucose monitor.

23:17

But I have not been able to test that

23:20

pre post ice bath, and I don't even know how quickly you'd you'd see anything.

23:24

Know, there's obviously also measurements like

23:27

fasting insulin and hemoglobin 1 a1c. Those... Your testing

23:31

more episodic, like every 3 or 6 months. But

23:34

can you help us understand, the mechanisms

23:37

biologically between the cold

23:41

and how our body processes some.

23:45

Had to learn a lot about insulin. I didn't want to. Didn't wanna become a metabolism

23:49

expert, but it was in 2001 in the

23:52

winter, and my son was very sick. I didn't

23:55

know it was wrong. It was 6 years old. And my wife called our doctors also our

24:00

next door neighbor, you know, because you're in a small town in Northern New York. And

24:03

my wife saying, well, you know, he's got a fever and he doesn't have any

24:07

energy and our pediatrician said he's probably got

24:10

the flu. You know, going around, and then my wife said, and he's peeing the bed

24:13

a lot. And she didn't tell me, but on that

24:17

phone call John told her. Meet me the emergency room right away. Your

24:22

son has diabetes and your life is gonna change. But my wife didn't wanna believe it.

24:26

She just said, oh, John says to me us at the hospital. You know? So we

24:30

lived across the street. I carried him over.

24:33

And they take them right away. Like, they

24:35

admitted him to the pediatric Icu, and I'm

24:38

still kind of in the dark like, what's going on. John comes up to me with an orange

24:43

and a syringe. He says nobody 1 leaves

24:45

his hospital until you figure these out. Like,

24:47

John, What are you talking about? Goes? This

24:50

is an insulin syringe. Your son has diabetes.

24:52

That means he doesn't make insulin anymore. You're gonna be checking his blood sugar you're gonna

24:56

be injecting him with this insulin until he figures out how to do this himself.

25:00

I had to read everything. I had to 1 or type 2. This is type 1.

25:04

This is not... Like, when we talk about

25:06

diabetes being epidemic. That's type 2. Yeah. This

25:09

is a autoimmune disorder in which His own immune system

25:13

has attacked the isle cells in his pancreas

25:15

that make insulin. He doesn't make it anymore. He needs to get it exogenous. This is

25:20

before Cg. This is before insulin pumps. And

25:23

so we gotta to prick his finger. We learn how to prick his arm. We gotta

25:26

give him injections at least 2 sometimes 3

25:29

times a day. I kept sc records because

25:33

at the time, I just finished my dis. Right? And I've got my lab no books

25:36

and where writing down all his exercise and

25:39

all of his injections and things like that. And Dave, there is no

25:43

amount of insulin you can give us 6

25:45

year old boy that will prevent an insulin

25:48

spike from an Oreo cookie. I had every

25:50

food mapped out and the American Diabetes

25:53

Association wanted me to believe that he eating anything he wants. Cupcakes. No problem, birthday cake.

25:57

No problem. Whatever he likes breakfast cereal just

26:00

feed him to as long as you bolus for it. But I had the data right

26:04

there in our lab books saying, this is crazy. He's up to 02:20. I'm

26:09

not gonna give them another 6 units of

26:11

h you know, so that he can have cinnamon toast crunch. I'm switching this kid to,

26:15

like, eggs and whole wheat toast, which he

26:18

enjoys. And then I looked at my daughter who's

26:21

2 and a half years younger than him. And I said, you know, if an Oreo

26:24

is doing this to him. What's it do?

26:27

Oreos are right out. All of these concentrated

26:30

processed carbs, we gave them your diet starts

26:33

in the grocery store. And so we eliminated

26:36

all of that from the very like start

26:39

of the new millennium. Well, I mean, he grows up. And, of course,

26:43

he can take care himself in we get the pump when we get that technology is

26:47

going way through the roof. But what I

26:49

learned from that is I could not trust

26:51

the diet. I could not trust the endo.

26:54

I could not trust the information that I was getting from the American diabetes associated that

26:58

was making my son sick. So it was for me the origins of

27:03

what they call do your own research, you

27:05

know? And that's said der on Twitter.

27:09

But I'm the only thing I trust now. Sure Yeah.

27:12

So this is where I learned about metabolism.

27:15

This is where I became my own expert

27:17

on insulin. And then,

27:21

aj called me. I was in Texas with

27:23

my daughter, and she said, well, I'm having

27:26

a lot of abdominal pain. So, well,

27:29

maybe you should go to the emergency room. She's says, I don't know. Maybe it's just

27:32

like a sister or maybe I'm popping an

27:35

egg or I, you know, she had all these excuses. But she sounded terrible, and I said, you

27:40

go to the emergency room I'm going to the airport. I came back.

27:43

She's in there. And that doctors haven't told her what's wrong.

27:47

It's very frightening. Her case goes all the way up to

27:50

the tumor board at the hospital. They say you have a growth on your

27:55

liver. She says, by growth, do you mean a tumor and they go, yeah.

27:59

Because you have a history of bleeding disorders we can operate. The lure is all blood

28:02

vessels And if we operate, you just might bleed out and die. We can't treat it

28:06

with radiation, and it won't respond to chemo.

28:08

We'd have to kill you with chemo to kill the tumor.

28:11

She said, what, what can you do? They said, watchful waiting.

28:15

They've tumors... They come from somewhere. They don't just go

28:19

away because you... You're gonna have scan every

28:21

3 months or something. And so she said, Tom watchful waiting. That's like a death sentence

28:26

for me. I have 4 young daughters. What

28:28

am I gonna do? I said you're gonna do what I did. You're gonna do keto.

28:31

You're gonna do ice baths. You're gonna do a Dean hal. Keto and ice baths. We're

28:35

gonna attack this metabolically. So she did. She went into keto. She

28:39

started going to that ice bath, not every day, but several times a week and damned

28:43

if that tumor didn't shrink. This is where I had to go to

28:47

the library and read Thomas C for work

28:49

about the metabolic origins of cancer. Yep. I

28:51

had to learn about brown fat, which I didn't know dang think about Mh. Until, you

28:56

know, years after my son was diagnosed.

28:59

Well there's a good reason for that. At the time, my son was diagnosed.

29:02

People, medical doctors thought there was no such

29:05

thing as brown fat in adult human beings.

29:07

They thought, you know, kids have it, but then you lose it as you get older.

29:10

It's just the way it is. Until a team of doctors in Sweden. This

29:15

is like 2007, they were doing Pet

29:19

scans to detect tumors. You

29:21

inject glucose that is dope with radiation, You see

29:24

where the glucose is going and because tumors

29:26

preferential uptake glucose you do the scan and you

29:30

can locate the tumors. But they saw all these symmetrical spots on their scans, and they

29:34

said, it's not a tumor. What what could

29:37

that be? In a fewer than 5 percent

29:40

of the scans in Sweden, they were identifying

29:42

brown fat because these instrument rooms were cold

29:45

So the Sloan Ke Institute, you know, they're

29:48

in the United States. Well, maybe we should go back through all our Pet scans. See

29:52

if we can find some of this brown fat. It's sort of true by the age of

29:56

45, fewer than 5 percent of American adults still

30:00

have brown fat. So you can kinda understand why the medical doctors Sure. Thought you just

30:04

don't have it. But you do have it. If you get cold. And if you're brown

30:09

fats gone, Problem is it leads to metabolic

30:13

dysfunction, the brown fat and the thyroid. They

30:15

work together to regulate your metabolism.

30:18

The thyroid is speaking to the brown fat

30:20

chemically, and the brown fat is speaking to the thyroid. The thyroid makes thyroid hormone. And

30:25

there's lots of different types of thyroid hormone. But let's overs simplify this as an active

30:29

form and an inactive form. It is the

30:32

brown fat that converts the less active to

30:34

the more active. So the thyroid and the brown are in constant

30:38

communication, brown fat modulate your thyroid function. It

30:41

is brown fat that will fix your hyper

30:45

or hypo thyroid, at least in many cases because if you

30:49

got no bra, there's nothing to regulate the

30:51

thyroid function. Well, It took the scientists

30:56

years after my son was diagnosed to say

30:58

have Brown fat as a thing. And then Susanna Soul a whole dis. Now in brown

31:02

fat. It's like a whole different branch now of biological or physiological

31:07

science, and it is the key to improving

31:10

your in and resistance. It does a few other things too. It's

31:13

not just thermo genesis, but it will secret

31:17

neuro d hormones. So brown fat is good for

31:20

your brain, which partly explains why they say breakfast famous

31:25

for quoting this, so they didn't make it up Alzheimer's is known as type 3 diabetes.

31:30

Yeah. I've it before. Also originates in metabolism.

31:34

So the mechanism then is the cold is,

31:37

the thermo genesis of the cold is increasing

31:40

the brown fat stores. Which are huge component of proper healthy metabolism,

31:47

also re regulates through

31:50

interaction with the thyroid. And so that... That's the primary mechanism then

31:55

of of where we get these metabolic benefits. Can you speak, Tom, a little

31:59

bit too. I also have rid that Well,

32:02

I guess it's all related because as the

32:04

brown fats builds, the insulin sensitivity

32:08

improves, and that also has a downstream effect just

32:11

to body composition improvements. So this is really

32:15

interesting because the cold will remodel your fat. But it's

32:20

not actually effective for weight loss. And this is where b you mentioned that. Your. Life

32:24

of a camera you you're were very humorous about it. But you're like, I'm 50 some.

32:28

I'm still. I'm still a fat guy. Yeah. Right look, If anybody was gonna be all

32:32

ripped from cold exposure. That would be me.

32:35

But you see me go into the ice...

32:38

I'm still a 50 year old fat guy, and it's kinda tough Guy I wish I

32:42

looked like Ben greenfield. You know? I wish I looked like Mike Mu for goodness sakes,

32:45

but I'm never gonna be an Instagram model.

32:48

I'm gonna stay a university professor. And when you do the research, you

32:52

find that yes, cold rev up your metabolism, yes,

32:56

cold will burn fat. But at night, your core body temperature comes

33:00

back down. Your metabolism slows back down. Your

33:03

body rebuild those fat reserves. It's called a

33:06

compensatory metabolic mechanism. Cool is it's a a good

33:10

way to... As an adjunct to a diet

33:13

to exercise at cleaning up your diet getting

33:15

the processed seed oils out, and that kind of thing. But the first 5 pound you

33:19

lose. It's all inflammation. It's all the water

33:22

sense. However, it will remodel the fat in

33:25

your body from visceral to subcutaneous. So visceral

33:28

is the... I color fat. Yeah. So if

33:30

you were doing dex scans, you might see

33:32

a shift Right. In how the fat is

33:35

distributed. And we know that, the visceral is

33:38

the most inflammatory. Yep. So although

33:41

your net weight will probably stay the same.

33:44

It might even increase. Yep. But the cool

33:46

thing about the Dex scans is they show you the fat distribution. Yep. So, okay. That

33:51

makes sense. Body scan does not do. So

33:54

if you're going a, I don't know lifetime fitness, and you get the electrodes on your

33:58

feet and your hands. They are using electrical impedance to estimate your

34:02

body composition, and they're not calibrated for brown

34:05

fat. Yeah. So I have 3 case studies. 1 of them is Chris Get. And if

34:08

you follow Chris. He's a body builder. He's

34:11

completely ripped. He's in, like, the single digit

34:13

body fat. And his in body scanner was

34:16

telling him 14 percent. Got a little discouraged.

34:18

He sent me a picture. And he's like, does this seem like 14 percent. I go,

34:21

how much have you been in your ice, Bath like, every day because he's got.

34:25

I don't know the body scanner is lying to you because it's not calibrated for the

34:29

brown fat. You get a different impedance, and

34:32

it will... You'll see an instant jump And

34:35

by instance, I mean, a week after you

34:37

start ice baths. Your body scanner will say,

34:39

hey, you just gained 2 percent body fat.

34:42

No. You didn't. You're fooling your in body

34:44

scanner. And I have 3 or 4 case studies of people that back this up. But

34:48

the Dex scan will be much more interesting.

34:50

Right on. Yeah, I've seen those changes in my own body. My first Dex scan, and

34:54

it shows you the color coding on here, and then, like you, I started learning how

34:58

to change my diet. And that... That's a

35:00

a huge risk indicator. Is the amount of visceral adipose

35:04

tissue. So Okay. So I get all of that part. I get how the metabolic benefits

35:08

work. The next 1 I wanted to ask

35:10

you about was, mood improvement.

35:13

Because, again, my experience, you know, you get

35:16

in there and you come out and you're,

35:19

like, you're sharp and you're bright and you're clear.

35:23

And it's it's just a little high.

35:26

And so Yeah. And there's also people I

35:29

with who have worked through a lot of

35:31

different Let's just say,

35:34

mental health, conditions, depression, anxiety,

35:37

a woman I met recently, mitochondria, where going through the cold, it was...

35:43

She learned how powerful her mind was through

35:46

overcoming that experience and was able to be

35:48

well, if I can do that. I overcome this. So Yeah. It's doing something to the

35:52

neurotransmitters and the chemicals

35:56

in the brain I've heard numbers thrown around.

35:59

Loosely, you can probably correct this on this

36:02

about increases in dopamine and norepinephrine

36:06

cat means and stuff like that. What? Can

36:09

you give us a concise way to understand what's happening at the neurotransmitter level. The simplest

36:15

explanation is it is hard to be in a bad mood when you got 3 times

36:18

the dopamine in your bloodstream as you. I

36:21

mean, people would chase dopamine high like that

36:24

through a lot of illicit means. Exactly. And and, you know, it's crazy. I

36:28

I've even read anecdotally, like, people going through

36:31

addiction in recovery, even the the cold bass, like, it helps

36:35

to create that high. Yeah. So what's going

36:37

on there with no transmitter stuff? The the

36:39

first 1 is the nora neurotransmitters like this a meat short term takes you out of

36:43

whatever monkey was bounce around in your head into

36:46

your present moment. And making you feel good. It breaks the bad mood cycle and then

36:51

you come out with motivation and energy, and

36:53

that's terrific. And then I read a book

36:55

by Chris Palmer. He was just on Mark

36:58

Bell power podcast. He wrote a book called Brain Energy. Chris is a psychiatrist at Harvard

37:03

did a review of brain energy, and I put it up on Amazon, and I'm sorry

37:07

Chris. So I only give it 4 out of 5 stars because you know I'm like,

37:09

hey, you could have done a little bit more in the second half tough crowd, but,

37:12

yeah. Right. But what he pointed out is that the

37:16

brain uses 25 to 30 percent of all

37:19

the energy that the body needs. Mh. It is the most energy intensive. Of all your

37:23

major organs. If your metabolism isn't right? That is if

37:27

the mitochondria and the brain aren't right, and

37:30

you're not processing energy well, or course in a bad mood.

37:33

Sure. Because a lot of the things that we need to do to manage our negative

37:37

emotions and to manage our anxieties they take energy, whether it's

37:42

cognitive behavioral therapy or dialect behavioral therapy or

37:45

cognitive re reframe or all these things that

37:48

Greg Lu and Jonathan Height wrote this book

37:51

called the cod of the American mind, and I read it because it's all about universities

37:55

and how the universities are now making the students creating

38:00

the conditions in the university that lead to

38:03

these emotional dysfunction. Well, if you're gonna do the opposite, If

38:08

you're gonna lead yourself to emotional health, that's

38:10

energetically intensive and Palmer figured out that his

38:13

patients that would not respond to Ss

38:16

that were not responding to talk therapy. They

38:19

sure felt a lot better when they were on the ketogenic diet. What he didn't write

38:22

a lot about in his book. Is that he was homeless as a child

38:26

for periods because his mother suffered from Schizophrenia.

38:28

He dedicated his book to his mother is passed on.

38:31

And you can kinda, I've never met Chris, like we've, you know, messaged back and forth

38:35

a little bit, but we've never talked about this. But just like me with my son

38:39

and diabetes got me into metabolism. You can imagine how Chris feel

38:45

about schizophrenia, about an about some of these dead

38:49

they're not just mood disorders. Right? These psychiatric

38:53

disorders. Right? And he has rearranged his approach

38:57

to psychiatry around metabolism. And he's not the only 1. There's

39:01

a whole movement now in it. So the

39:03

short term is you get a big boost

39:06

in these neuro neurotransmitters like the nora adrenaline,

39:08

the adrenaline, the dopamine. All that stuff is

39:12

great vas And and that's confirmed in the literature. Absolutely.

39:15

Yeah. There's some really good blood here. I'm studies on all this. Okay. But longer term.

39:20

You get the metabolic boost that your brain needs to do that hard work of managing

39:25

your anxieties and your emotions. So I think

39:28

we're really onto something here when we're talking

39:31

about cold plunge therapy for... I mean, I

39:33

call it mood management. But the cases of resolving major depression they keep

39:39

coming at me readers who are telling me

39:41

that nothing worked. 1 of them... He's gonna come visit us

39:45

in Phoenix. He said we did a long interview. Who's very vulnerable.

39:49

He said he tried to drown himself in the bathtub at Home he lives in Latvia.

39:52

His brother found him interrupted him. He's in his twenties he was depressed.

39:56

Well, the bathtub waters warm. Next day, You know. This guy got it

40:00

all figured out. He tells his parents. I know I feel much better. I'm gonna go

40:04

for a run. You know, I'm gonna go jog, and I really wanna take care of

40:07

myself now. And dad goes wait a second. Give me

40:10

my shoes. You know, his son's out the door, and his dad's like, he's not going

40:15

running. He's going down to the beach. He's gonna drown himself. Dad books for the beach

40:20

because he wants to inter seed, and he

40:23

sees his son is already in the water when he gets there. Dad close on and

40:27

everything. He's, like, diving into the Baltic, and he reaches the sun, Somehow he's gonna

40:32

pull him out. And when he gets here go, the sun

40:34

says, I don't wanna die dead. The water

40:37

is cold. The warm water and he's depressed

40:41

The cold water, and he gets all this energy he gets his ranch, and the dad

40:45

says we will come down to this beach

40:48

every day. We will go swimming together. Well,

40:51

now, he's a product designer. And he's invented

40:53

this this little thing It looks like you know, Star Wars Droid or something, you don't

40:57

measure your temperature and how long you're in

40:59

there and stuff, because he's doing it every

41:01

day and he's coming to Phoenix so that we can do this research workshop together and

41:05

plan out. Is that the 1 that's coming up here? Yeah. Later It'll be on the

41:09

you campus. We're bringing in doctors and patients

41:11

and scientists from are saying. What's the research

41:13

that really needs to be done? Yeah. And how do we get the clinicians in touch

41:17

with the scientists? So that we can improve the protocols and practice that kind of thing.

41:21

Awesome. Just 1 more thing on on the mood

41:24

regulation. I I think that's a nice way to kinda, like, su

41:28

sum it all basically. But, you know, just waking up in the

41:31

morning and and a lot of people need a few cups of coffee and

41:35

And a little... It's it's hard to get the engine running sometimes. So, like, I'm just

41:40

that morning kid on Christmas morning. You. I

41:43

don't have an by. Right? But, you know, if you could

41:46

do it every morning, You know, how different

41:49

would your days be, you know, I don't

41:52

have access to it at home on a daily basis. But Dave you know what you

41:55

need to do. Mh that I'm making them right through these walls

42:00

if you want access every morning.

42:03

Then you know what you need to do to get it. Well, let's talk business.

42:08

Right off. Well this is why you know,

42:10

me and Jason invented it because we didn't wanna do it once a week. Yeah. We

42:14

didn't want it to be an hour and a half hour deal. Sometimes you wanna get

42:16

in there and just wanna do, like, 3 minutes. Well, you're not gonna go down to the

42:20

gas station and pick up a hundred and 50 pounds of ice, so you can do

42:23

a 3 minute ice baths. So we needed a machine where we could micro

42:28

dose cold if we wanted to do that

42:30

or do 2 or 3 a day. Yeah. It's just getting high on your own supply.

42:34

Yeah. Alright. So that's 2. We've got mood regulation. We've

42:39

got the metabolic benefits, anti aging. Longevity,

42:44

Everyone's nerd out now on, some of the

42:46

new diagnostics that are getting pretty good. Yeah. We can

42:49

start to measure biological age. Know you wanna

42:52

keep this under an hour, so I'm gonna cut to the chase. They're all crap. Okay.

42:55

Tel me crap, your Dna meth crap, and

42:58

somebody who sells these things who you know,

43:00

has a medical degree and an appointment at

43:02

a more prestigious university than me, and I'm

43:05

not gonna say who these people are, because they'll find you on... They'll find me on

43:08

Twitter and troll my butt, but they're all

43:10

crap. And they're crap. I know they're crap because I have read the literature.

43:14

Tell them your length and Dna meth. Is

43:17

2 examples. They hardly improve your predicted mortality

43:21

at all. Under fair point, there's no such

43:24

thing as biological age if it is not in expected mortality.

43:29

This is what we mean when we say biological age. Mh. So you need to have

43:33

the correlation between tel length and expected mortality

43:36

and it just isn't there. However, Patrick Porter.

43:39

He's the brain tab. Patrick. Yeah. Yeah. He

43:41

doesn't do the material. He doesn't, like, take

43:43

a sample of your Dna, your saliva or

43:46

whatever and look for a material marker of

43:49

your age. And there's a good reason. Life is

43:53

energetic. You can only

43:56

detect life as a departure from thermo

44:00

equilibrium. If you wanna get a handle on

44:02

your biological age, measure it energetically, like Patrick

44:06

Porter does. Don't look for it materially. So

44:10

Patrick's, you know, he's measuring the energy that

44:12

your mitochondria are putting out all the theories

44:15

of aging compared to mitochondria

44:18

are crap. They're inferior to the mitochondria theory

44:21

of health. You mitochondria have their own Dna.

44:24

And it's hard to measure the quality of those Dna because there can be thousands of

44:28

and a single brown fat cell, for example. Your red blood cells. They don't have any

44:33

mitochondria. So you can, like, suck up blood sample. And it's not gonna help you with

44:36

a mitochondria assessment. Because the mitochondria have their own Dna, and

44:41

nobody told me that, like, Freshman year high

44:43

school, you gotta keep track of the quality of

44:46

your mitochondria if you're gonna understand your biological

44:50

age and expected mortality. When you exercise too

44:53

hard. When you eat too many carbs, when you mess up your light hygiene, your mitochondria

44:58

will be damaged. And that's okay as long as they have time to recover. Mh. Time

45:02

in the dark, time to rest. 1 of the best things you can do

45:05

for your mitochondria. Is cold punch therapy. It stimulates bio genesis.

45:10

It stimulates mit fa. It will upgrade the

45:13

quality of your mitochondria. And because it is

45:15

the mitochondria that process the energy that are

45:19

responsible for this energetic conversion. Look to your

45:23

mitochondria for your anti aging not in the

45:25

nucleus. Yeah. It's the mitochondria that produce the

45:28

energy that take care of the nucleic Dna.

45:31

Okay. So anti aging for me is

45:35

mitochondria therapies. I get into patrick porter neural

45:38

check. And it's the first time I've ever been there, and it's during the lockdown downs.

45:41

We're in men Park together. And he's showing

45:44

me all the, you know, Meridian and stuff. He goes, Tom, you're doing great. I could

45:47

sell you 1 of these brain tap machines, but it wouldn't do any good. Why not

45:51

Patrick. He goes, well, you know I get Dave Ash guys in here and they're always

45:54

in the upper eighties, and they're really close

45:56

to. I know I can get him into, like, mid nineties, upper nineties. You're already there.

46:00

So I can't really help you. And I

46:02

think he's flattering me. You know, because I

46:05

don't know where. We're just having a good time. Here's goes, let me show you 1

46:08

more screen. He goes, you're 32 years old,

46:11

biologically. And I'm, you know, 54 or something at

46:15

the time. And I think it's kind of a joke then he comes to Phoenix, and

46:18

he text me. He says, you should come down You should come to our booth. You

46:20

know you should see what we're doing. I see, yeah. Listen me in the neuro check.

46:24

It's been 2 years later. He goes congratulations,

46:26

Tom. You're 30. Right? I'm

46:29

aging. You can do all the stuff so his justice is is is the... Basically looking

46:34

at mitochondria as a directly case not sampling your

46:39

mitochondria. He's sampling your energy, and it is

46:41

the mitochondria that are responsible for all the

46:44

energy order there. Yeah. You do yourself 1 of

46:47

these here. It comes to Phoenix 2 3 times a,

46:50

year, I would guess because there's so many conferences here. Yeah. But I have a neural

46:53

check. We'll hook you up. We'll attach you

46:55

to Patrick software. We'll get a biological age.

46:58

Then we'll get you a. You'll get in there every day. And then we'll measure again,

47:03

like 6 weeks later, and we'll see if we can't aid you in reverse too. Moment

47:07

into that. Alright. So that's number 3,

47:10

anti aging. Number 4 is

47:14

brain health in general. So not necessarily mood, but the

47:17

organ of the brain is the next 1 on the list. So...

47:22

We touched on this metabolically, but I'm gonna

47:24

tell you another story. There's a man who

47:27

is faculty member at University of South Florida.

47:29

His name is Joe D. He spent 28 years as a navy saturation

47:34

diver, and then he left the service, and he got his Phd.

47:37

He got it in hyper medicine, like, it's biomedical engineering or something I... But he wanted

47:41

to study Hyper barr because if you spent 28 years, you know, studying pressure and oxygen

47:47

and dive times, and you'd be pretty curious

47:50

about hyper too. Joe loves his truck. He's

47:54

got like this 19 46

47:56

pickup and he's driving around Florida, and everything

47:59

is great, But you know what they have in airbags for a 19 46 pickup truck.

48:04

Nothing. And when you get t bone, your

48:06

head, get smashed up against the side of

48:08

your antique trucking, you don't wake up until

48:10

you're in the hospital, and there's a resident

48:12

like, looking over you saying, doctor,

48:15

don't you remember me? I took your class

48:18

He's got traumatic brain injury. He's now gotta

48:21

heal himself. He says I'm gonna use hyper barr. I'm gonna use red light, gonna use

48:24

cold punch. He's just throwing everything at it.

48:27

He can't even read the literature anymore because his brain's not working right. He's like, anything

48:31

that makes sense to me? I'm gonna try. He explained the logic He said, when you

48:35

get in up to your neck, vasoconstriction

48:39

constriction shuts off all of the circulation in

48:41

your legs. Where does the blood go? Right

48:44

up to your brain. Yeah. Because your brain still warm. It goes into your core to

48:47

defend your core body temperature, and it goes, and it increases the perfusion in the brain.

48:52

I'm trying to get more blood into my brain, so I can heal my traumatic brain

48:57

injury. Now he's on Instagram, you doctor Deep

48:59

c spent a hundred dick straight days

49:02

underwater. He's coming to our workshop. Because nobody

49:05

knows more about healing traumatic brain injury than the guy

49:10

with the Phd who has lived through it.

49:13

Well, well, you know then stacking it with hyper barr too. Yeah. That that is a

49:17

powerful combination. Yep. In general.

49:20

You could say though, but what are the mechanisms and per the increased perfusion in the

49:24

brain? That's 1. Sure. But it's not just

49:26

that. It's also brain derived neuro factor. It's

49:30

also FGF 21. There are these neuro protective factors

49:34

that are stimulated when you get cold. And

49:37

I don't understand why?

49:40

Exactly. The only thing that makes sense to me is that

49:44

when you plunge yourself into the cold water,

49:47

your body's like, we're gotta take care of the brain here. We you know, we have

49:50

to defend the vital organs. So as a

49:53

story, it sort of makes sense. But there's a book barefoot foot to billionaire.

49:58

This is John Hunts, who was a chemical

50:02

engineering entrepreneur. And in this book, a friend of mine

50:05

told me I should read it. He starts with his, you know, humble beginnings

50:09

back in the thirties. He's born on an Indian reservation, But he's got no pulse. He's

50:14

got no breath. The doctor gave him up for dead, because

50:19

the doctor's gonna attend to the mom. Right?

50:22

But the mid wife said, I'm gonna bring him back to life. What did she do?

50:26

Thermal contrast therapy. She ran them under the

50:28

hot. She ran them under the cold. Under the hot? Under the cold. And this

50:33

shocked him into life. He began to breathe.

50:35

He began to cry. Hunts wakes up, and he gives like away

50:39

a billion dollars as a adult, you know,

50:42

as a successful to a Cancer Institute. But he seemed to

50:45

kinda forget the therapeutic effects of cold because

50:48

he's all looking in the nucleus. He's not looking in the mitochondria. He's not looking at

50:51

the metabolism for the orange of cancer. But

50:54

I'm following a story so I go to the library. Sure enough. Cold water therapy used

50:59

to be used for infants that had suffered

51:02

a brain injury during birth. You know what

51:05

they used now? Viagra. Because viagra promotes vas dilation just like cold

51:11

water therapy will. This is why a e dysfunction is 1

51:15

of the first clinical markers of metabolic

51:18

dysfunction. So you can take the viagra.

51:21

And it will promote the mitochondria production of nitric oxide that

51:26

will cause the vas. Great. This increases blood flow to the penis,

51:31

and it resolves the e dysfunction. But it

51:34

does it at the expense of the mitochondria,

51:36

not by healing the mitochondria. But

51:39

overcoming the insulin resistance is that's trying to

51:41

protect those damage, mitochondria. So 1 of the best things you

51:44

can do for your sexual performance as a

51:47

man is do a program of cold plunge

51:50

therapy that improve the mitochondria that produce that

51:53

nitric of that produce the energy for that

51:55

nitric oxide. Well, that segue us into the

51:58

final 1, sexual performance and

52:01

relationship health, and I know I've read some of your work

52:05

around testosterone increases. Obviously, that's going to increase Lab,

52:10

in men, but you mentioned something before the show. You're you're seeing actually,

52:14

even more significant increases in the ladies. This

52:17

is brand new and but brand new. I mean, a reader.

52:20

She was a Dallas for Ash conference. Yeah.

52:23

We're there? Yeah. Okay. And, know, she's meeting

52:25

all these famous people and that kind of thing, but she text me. I'm not at

52:29

Esp conference, and she goes, you know, where

52:31

I, I was hoping to meet you What, you're not here, because I wanted to share

52:34

some results. Oh, what are those? She sends

52:37

me her lab reports. Now she's had a complete his

52:42

and what's called an oo? I can't even pronounce Her over is removed.

52:46

Mh. She's 60 years old. She went into surgical

52:49

metal menopause after the surgery, but, of course,

52:52

she would be men menopause at her age and she's been on a low dose testosterone

52:56

replacement therapy now for decades. And her

53:00

measured testosterone will for ice baths. It was

53:02

kind of on the low end of normal, but that's what her physician was trying to

53:06

shoot for. 10 x improvement. Like, in more than 10 x from... What

53:11

was it 14 to a hundred and 63 if I'm remembering this correctly. And she wanted

53:15

to share that. Her estrogen also went up. She said, got a meeting with my endo

53:20

on Monday, and I got a feeling that they're gonna try and give me off the

53:23

testosterone. The pam, how do you feel?

53:26

Great. She says, my hair was coming in thicker.

53:29

I have better energy, and Dave I did

53:32

not have the guts to ask her about her Lab because we're, like, recording this. Right?

53:37

And she's like, it's fine. Well, I posted that.

53:42

And then I got a message from a younger woman over is intact. She's 32, and

53:46

she's more concerned about how do I preserve

53:48

my fertility because I'm gonna wanna have kids

53:51

and I'm getting a little older. She had her labs done,

53:55

doubled. But when she texted me she said I didn't get that much of a boost,

53:58

only 0.5. Well, you're united a kingdom they use different

54:01

units. You know, here, I went from 14

54:04

to a hundred and 60. I'm up a hundred and 50 units, and she was, like,

54:07

I only increased 0.5. But in her units, she went from 0.6

54:12

to 1.1. And I figured forget what it was, you

54:14

know, nano mole per milliliter or something. She

54:17

almost doubled. Her estrogen went up 3 times.

54:20

So this says 2 women over the space of 2 weeks that are sending me their

54:24

lab saying all they changed was ice bath, and then they're getting this huge boost in

54:28

their sex hormones. Well, that, I think calls for further study

54:34

Where is the study of ice bath and

54:37

serum levels of testosterone and estrogen Possibly do

54:40

that research? Exactly right. If only, there was someone setting up a

54:45

thousand square foot lab in Scottsdale,

54:49

Arizona that could, you know, work with me

54:51

to study this question the if there's anybody

54:54

listening to this podcast Yes. Please message me.

54:57

Let's let's close out here, Tom and tell

55:00

us about the research because, you've had such a a good broad perspective

55:04

on all the information that's out there. You've

55:07

got the end of 1 case reports coming in. You're like, There's something here. Nobody studied

55:12

it. You're probably looking at all the scientific

55:14

literature, you know where the gaps are. You know, what gaps really need to be plugged

55:18

to further legit all of this. So,

55:22

like, any good businessman entrepreneur, like, well, I

55:24

guess we're doing it. And so you're kicking

55:26

off AAA good businessman. I'm not a good entrepreneur.

55:30

And I don't know that any good businessman or I'm checking take initiative to say listen,

55:34

this is a problem. I'm gonna fix it. We're gonna do this

55:38

research. So tell us about that. The

55:41

thing we're doing now. I've never talked about this in public. I've talked about it with

55:46

some of the people coming to the research workshop here's what we're doing now. It is

55:49

called the Cold Plunge Research

55:52

Institute Ci. I just signed the engagement letter

55:55

with a nonprofit attorney here in Arizona. We're

55:57

gonna stand up a 05:01 c 3. It is gonna run a cold plunge research conference

56:02

here in Phoenix. We're gonna do it longest

56:05

day of the year because I figured that's the best thing to do in June at

56:08

the Sol. People will come here. I mean, we'll have

56:11

ice baths so that they can cool off, but we'll have university professors. We will have

56:16

clinicians. We'll have patient represented. And we will

56:18

have industry representatives. That includes Mar, But there

56:21

are so many bad actors in this business right now.

56:26

Crooks. I don't know if it's illegal, but I'm calling them crooks because these are deceptive

56:30

marketing practices. The... And you don't have to go very far on reddit to find the

56:34

crooks. To be an industry med member of

56:37

this Cold plunge research institute, you're gonna have

56:40

to meet certain standards, truth and marketing. Truth

56:43

and advertising. Certain safety stands for the performance

56:45

of your equipment. I've talked to Matt K

56:49

from desert Plunge. She's right here in Scottsdale.

56:52

The guy who runs ice bath works. Jeff.

56:54

He's flying down to Phoenix, so he can talk to Matt, and I... About what's the

56:58

industry role in this research

57:01

institute. And, of course, I want you to come in. I want you to come to

57:04

the conference. I want you to do a presentation about what heads up is doing. I

57:07

want you to help guide this non nonprofit

57:09

and this is gonna put some distance between

57:11

the business and the science. People are still gonna say.

57:15

He's just saying that because he wants to... Sell ice baths, and there's no way for

57:19

me to really butt that because I do sell ice baths,

57:22

but they have the order of operations wrong. It's not that I started doing the science

57:27

because I wanted to sell the baths. After I did the science, I realized we've got

57:31

to sell these back We have to make

57:34

this available to people, and we're still the

57:37

only commercially available ice bath company in North

57:40

America that actually makes ice.

57:43

It would be unethical of me to not start an ice

57:47

bath company. People can say, well, why is

57:50

it so expensive? Maybe it's so expensive because I don't know

57:53

I'm doing. Maybe it's so expensive because I'm a university professor instead of a real, you

57:57

know, manufacturing engineer. If it's too much,

58:01

Matt from desert Plunge makes a good product and he's an honest guy. You can get

58:05

1 of these less expensive units. So you don't have to get ripped off doing it.

58:08

But we sell convenience and we sell ice.

58:12

So there's a segment of the market that isn't so price sensitive.

58:16

They just want the best, and that's the

58:19

market that for right now we're trying to serve. I love it. And like you said,

58:23

there will be other trust and reputable companies

58:26

that you can go to, and you're not

58:28

gonna have some poor innocent person out there who reads about how

58:32

this can help them. And finds a product and gets ripped off.

58:36

Right. That should never happen. Exactly right. So

58:39

there's at least some quality control, and there's

58:42

some trust and some authenticity built into it?

58:45

And what are you do trust the Fda to regulate this? Trust the Cdc's

58:49

advice we have lost the trust in the

58:52

government institutions that are supposed to be protecting our

58:54

health, and now we look to Joe Rogan. And so since the Fda is incapable of

58:59

doing it. In this Cdc is useless. We've

59:02

got to do this ourselves, get reliable information

59:05

out to people that they can verify for

59:07

their n equals 1 self. I don't give

59:09

a crap with the peer reviewed, double blind,

59:12

you know, randomized controlled study that showed up

59:14

in the Lance that said, because nothing matters

59:17

more than your n equals 1 experience, you

59:20

need the tools to figure out what works for you. Not worked for, you know, some

59:24

Japanese cohort of 23 year old college students

59:27

that they got on an exercise bike in 19 91. You gotta run your own study

59:31

on your own self to get reliable

59:34

information about you. Took the words right out of my mouth

59:37

Tom. That's why we started heads up. That's

59:39

like, how the hell doing Know if anything's working for me. Where's is the data? There

59:42

you go. So, it's been awesome ride watching you guys grow.

59:47

Thanks. I'm excited to see you next week

59:49

Is it next weekend with the research? Yeah. Okay. And keep doing the work you do,

59:54

man? Awesome nice. Yeah. Appreciate you brother. Yeah.

59:56

Yeah. It's been a pleasure. Yeah. Thanks, guys. Alright.

1:00:02

Thank you for listening to data driven health

1:00:05

radio.