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no. Honestly,

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Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

1:20

Just to warn you before you start listening, there

1:22

will be swearing and some sexual language in

1:25

this series because I'm a sweary sexual kind

1:27

of person. I know what I am. I

1:29

swear like a soldier. I'll try to keep it to a

1:31

minimum. But just in case you've got very sensitive ears, you

1:33

can't say I didn't flag it. I

1:42

wonder how many of you have done some low-key

1:44

spying and never tell to sell. And I don't

1:46

mean normal spying, which is just checking your fellas,

1:48

Instagram DMs every time he leaves the room. That's

1:51

not spying. That's a relationship. Because

1:54

lads can't keep their digital dicks in their pants. He

2:00

then listened in as he made his way to work.

2:02

He rang his bit on the side during his commute

2:04

and she was able to listen to the whole

2:06

sordid thing. Yeah,

2:09

hi Joanne. I'm an epic story of how putting

2:11

a tracker in my husband's glove box led me

2:13

to discover he was living a double life. Well,

2:18

that is absolutely terrifying. That is up there

2:20

with some of the weirdest, dodgiest stories I've

2:22

ever heard, and I have heard some

2:25

dodgy shit. This

2:27

is a What's the Story Science production

2:29

for BBC Sounds. I'm Joanne

2:31

McNally, and this is Did Furbies Spy

2:33

on Us? Episode

2:35

four, you looking at me? At

2:44

the end of the last episode, I'd

2:46

practically mastered the art of spying completely.

2:48

I'd met a physical spy in the

2:50

physical world, I bought a lot of

2:52

spy shit from a spy shop, and

2:54

I tested out whether or not it

2:56

would go undetected. So, that

2:58

makes me a pro. I

3:01

discovered that in theory, the Furby could have

3:03

been tampered with and used as a little

3:05

spy, and that you need a

3:07

degree in electronics to make sense of what's inside

3:09

it. I

3:12

now knew for sure that the Furby was advanced for

3:14

its time, I had to give it that, being as

3:16

it was a child of the 90s. But

3:19

it got me thinking, if a Furby was

3:21

so advanced back in 98, what

3:24

were modern day toys capable of? And

3:26

did today's kids crave something even more

3:28

advanced? Well,

3:30

to find out, I decided to visit

3:32

a toy emporium to take a look

3:34

around. A toy emporium is

3:37

basically a toy shop. So,

3:43

I've come to a toy shop because I

3:45

figured I wanted to find out what toys

3:47

kids are into these days, versus

3:49

what toys I was into, have

3:52

they changed, have they moved on?

3:54

I was a big fan of Sylvanian

3:56

Families, My Little Pony, Polly Pocket. I'm

4:00

wondering, are there robotics? Is it all it's cracked

4:02

up to be? Or are kids still happy with

4:04

a box? But

4:06

I'm going to need some help. I'm going to

4:08

need some toy experts, like some advisors who

4:10

are familiar with the toy industry.

4:13

So I've stolen two children. Here,

4:16

before anyone starts calling the ORAS PCA,

4:18

producer Darryl's two children, Edie and Ezra,

4:20

were more than happy to consent to

4:23

join me in my important investigative work.

4:25

Hey guys. Hi. Come

4:31

on kids. Let's go shopping.

4:37

As we entered the toy emporium, I

4:39

could feel the nostalgia creeping into my

4:41

body. It felt like a young child

4:43

again. First

4:50

up, toy cars. You can actually physically

4:52

sit in and drive. We're

4:55

now in the car

4:57

showroom, I would say. That

5:00

is a full blown vehicle. No,

5:05

that's really cool. I

5:08

love that. Can you drive? No. No? You

5:11

can't drive. There's

5:14

Vespas here. Mint

5:17

coloured Vespas. Do you know how many fingers I would

5:19

have given to have one of them when I was

5:21

a kid? I would have been able to drive it

5:24

if I'd have given all my fingers away. Naturally,

5:27

I hopped onto the Vespas and realised, oh,

5:30

I'm still absolutely huge. Same as I was when I

5:32

was a child. But

5:35

soon enough, the kids were shell me

5:37

stuff from my own childhood. Like Edie

5:40

pointing out an entire aisle of roller

5:42

skates. How have they survived? I would

5:44

fall over. Although I do

5:47

have a pair of roller skates and

5:49

a skateboard. Do you know, I

5:51

used to be so good at roller skates. My

5:55

old family house is on a hill. I

5:57

would be up and down that hill with a figure's elbow. And

5:59

only recently are you. right on road or

6:01

skates and I couldn't even get across

6:03

the grass. After

6:05

finding another aisle full of hula hoops and

6:07

plastic dinosaurs, it was starting to dawn on

6:10

me. Kids don't need super complex

6:12

tech in their toys. They're more than happy

6:14

to play with stuff that doesn't move or

6:16

talk. We found

6:18

dolls. What's a doll's

6:20

Lego? Oh, Lego. Like, you have millions of Lego.

6:22

There's a Lego that's 581 pounds. What? 731 pounds.

6:29

Oh my God. Let's get it. The BBC

6:31

are paying. I learnt a valuable

6:33

lesson that day. Turns out the

6:35

BBC don't pay for 500 pound

6:37

Lego replicas of Hogwarts. But

6:40

as I was on my way to the till, Edie

6:42

noticed something at the end of the aisle. Furby.

6:45

Oh my God. It's like seeing a

6:47

celebrity. Look, there's a

6:49

Furby. Up there, yeah. We've

6:52

discovered a Furby in

6:54

the toy store and this Furby seems

6:56

to be the only thing locked

6:59

behind a glass cabinet like it's

7:01

the crown jewels. And

7:03

there's a sign saying that there's

7:05

CCTV in operation. Jewels stuffed the

7:07

Furby. What's

7:09

happened to that Furby? It

7:12

looks like it's been rescued. Obviously

7:14

I wanted him. It. Them.

7:18

So I looked for the box and to my

7:20

surprise they were all stored right at the top

7:22

of the shelf. Like porn. Way

7:24

out of reach of even the tallest of

7:26

smallest of humans. And the shop

7:29

attendant had to bring the biggest ladder I've

7:31

ever seen to get it down. Is

7:33

there a reason they're on the top shelf? Are they popular?

7:37

They get nicked because they're so popular. Yes.

7:39

I knew it. Why do I

7:41

feel so proud of them? They're

7:43

top shelf toys. Only

7:48

30 years on and the Furbys are still getting

7:51

nicked from shops. This felt

7:53

like a significant finding. Furby liked

7:55

them. After my request to

7:57

ride the giant ladder on wheels was rudely

7:59

rejected. What?

12:03

Do Furby's pass gas? I miss that. Oh

12:05

yes, come on. No, I

12:08

didn't know that. Yeah, little Easter eggs in there.

12:10

There's little Easter eggs hidden in there where it

12:12

passes gas. Are you

12:14

serious? So Furby's just, instead of

12:16

dying, they fart. What a way

12:18

to go. Imagine you could

12:20

only die by farting. I'd just never die.

12:23

Because I don't do that kind of thing.

12:27

A tremendous amount of thought went into this because it

12:29

was never looked at as a toy. It

12:32

was looked at as a life form. And

12:35

there's a big difference. Toy

12:37

companies turn out toys. But

12:39

in this case, they allowed us to do,

12:42

and David, again, was the mastermind

12:44

here. It just allowed us

12:46

to do what we had to do to make

12:49

it a life form. Let

12:55

that sink in. The Furby was

12:57

not designed to be a toy at all.

13:00

David and Richard were playing God. I

13:03

couldn't help but be a bit more suspicious about

13:05

their motives. In

13:07

other words, we always wanted Furby to

13:09

look intelligent. Why doesn't Furby move?

13:14

Because we didn't want Furby to walk off a

13:16

table or walk into a corner

13:19

and look stupid. Why

13:22

doesn't Furby have arms? Because

13:25

what are the arms going to do? You

13:29

see what I mean? David's

13:32

idea was to always have everything

13:34

look intelligent, even when it's in

13:36

the backseat of a moving car.

13:39

That's amazing. So basically, the brief is never

13:41

let Furby make a show of itself. Yeah,

13:44

exactly. Just, you know,

13:46

enjoy Furby for what Furby is. A Furby's

13:48

a Furby. A Furby's gonna Furby.

13:53

Oh my God, is Richard my

13:55

actual cellmate? Potentially. a

16:00

minute, 24 hours a day, seven days

16:02

a week. I have to say, I

16:05

really did not appreciate how

16:08

popular Furbies were. So

16:12

yes, it was a worldwide

16:14

superstar, a cultural icon, a

16:16

furry phenomenon. And the

16:18

secret to its success, Richard told me,

16:20

was the computer chip hidden inside us.

16:24

The early, early chips. The

16:26

idea here was we could pick

16:28

up a chip so inexpensively, but

16:30

it had more fire power in

16:32

it than in any toy prior.

16:35

Our chip, I believe, had more

16:37

memory and capability than the first

16:40

space capsules. What?

16:42

Yeah. Yeah. It

16:46

was a brilliant move on this chip. For a toy,

16:48

it's a big deal. I'm starting

16:50

to understand why people were a little

16:52

paranoid about Furbies. Yeah,

16:56

it did so much more than your normal

16:59

Yeah, it's saying it basically has the tech

17:02

of a UFO. Now

17:04

remember, this was not a toy. This

17:06

was a life form with a space-age

17:08

chip inside it. You try and

17:10

tell me this wasn't built to spy. Richard

17:13

insisted that was not the intention, but

17:15

he also admitted that David Hampton was

17:17

the tech brain. So if there was

17:19

a covert plot, it was David who

17:21

would be behind us. What

17:23

a story. It's an

17:25

amazing story. It's just an amazing story

17:27

that goes, spills out way

17:29

beyond the toy industry. Thank

17:32

you so much for taking the time to speak to

17:34

me. This has been absolutely fascinating. Well, thank

17:36

you. Thank you. Speaking

17:43

to Richard, I'd learned that the spying

17:45

story had helped with sales. The controversy

17:47

had been a huge boost. True

17:49

or not, the scandal had helped make the

17:52

Furby more desirable. But I

17:54

hadn't yet answered the question of why they

17:56

were banned in the first place. What

17:59

the hell was... even

24:01

if you think your laptop's turned off or your computer's

24:03

turned off, the spyware

24:05

programs can turn it on and can turn

24:08

the microphone on without you knowing it. It's

24:14

scary stuff. And it wasn't

24:16

just a theoretical threat, because I then met

24:18

a man who promised to show me that

24:20

these things were being hacked. And

24:22

he knew, because he was a hacker.

24:25

My name's Ken Munro, and our job is

24:27

we are ethical hackers. Ethical

24:31

hacking. Hmm. Ethical.

24:34

Ethics. Not familiar. Here's

24:36

how Ken does it. But actually, we're

24:39

the good guys, we're the good team.

24:41

So our job is we're brought in

24:43

by banks, governments, organizations to

24:45

hack them in a controlled fashion. The idea

24:47

being that we find the ways in, they

24:49

get fixed, and then the hackers can't get

24:51

in. One of my

24:53

seminal pieces of work that I did with a team

24:55

of colleagues here was around an interactive

24:57

dolly called my friend Kayla. I think she

24:59

was the first interactive dolly on the market,

25:02

the idea being that your kid could talk

25:04

to the dolly, it could

25:06

listen to what the kid said, turn

25:08

the speech into text, work out what the child has

25:10

said, and then come up with a response. Sales

25:13

went through the roof. But then Ken

25:15

worked with another BBC journalist and

25:17

uncovered that under the right circumstances, the baby

25:20

Kayla could be hacked. The

25:22

biggest issue by far was that she

25:24

was effectively a Bluetooth

25:26

headset inside a dolly's body.

25:29

And if you've ever connected to a

25:31

Bluetooth headset, you just connect, right? And as a

25:33

result of that, the lack of security of that

25:35

connection meant that someone,

25:38

anyone, could

25:40

connect to the microphone and speak her in that dolly and

25:42

listen to what your kids were saying and

25:45

speak to your kids as well. Someone in

25:47

the next door flat or next door

25:49

neighbour could connect to this innocent kid's

25:51

dolly and bug you. morning

26:00

what about you? Last week I

26:02

went to my friend's birthday party. So

26:05

let's see what happens next. I'm

26:07

in charge now. You might

26:09

think I am just a sweet toy but now

26:11

I have to be hurt I can say all

26:13

sorts of scary things. We

26:17

realised there was an opportunity to tamper with

26:19

the way that she interacted with the child

26:21

to the point where for a bit of

26:23

fun we modified her code and

26:26

whereas we could make her swear back

26:28

at the children. Now obviously no, that's

26:30

us just having a bit of fun. But it

26:32

did make you realise that again this innocent

26:34

kid's doll could actually be quite

26:36

nefarious. The makers of

26:39

Baby Kayla attempted to reassure customers but

26:41

it was too late and it didn't

26:43

wash and thanks to Ken's work over

26:45

in Germany the government banned Baby Kayla

26:47

and even ordered parents, sorry I mean

26:49

owners, to destroy any that they had

26:51

in their house. It actually became

26:53

illegal to own that dolly but something

26:57

is innocent. Something as simple as

26:59

a parent going by a toy for their child ends

27:01

up creating a spy bug. So

27:03

Furby was not the only smart toy

27:05

to be banned and Ken had a

27:07

warning that the threats posed by smart

27:10

toys continue. There are concerns about

27:12

a hostile or perhaps less

27:14

friendly nations using these devices

27:17

but I still think it would be relatively hard

27:19

to prove what was or wasn't happening. Really

27:22

I'd argue what we should be doing

27:24

is making sure that these devices are

27:27

being thoroughly tested, ethically hacked

27:29

if you like, to make really sure

27:31

that we're not out there buying products

27:33

that actually are exposing us to

27:35

foreign powers. In

27:37

fact only last year the

27:40

American Senate passed new laws forcing

27:42

toy companies to share their data

27:44

protection policies and by doing so

27:46

they said this. Most

27:48

smart toys are manufactured in China.

27:51

It's unclear what Chinese companies that make

27:53

these toys do with the information collected

27:55

on children. Parents need to

27:58

know what's going on with the toys they buy. their

28:00

children. This lack of transparency leaves

28:02

the door wide open for toy

28:04

companies to literally spy on kids,

28:06

gathering information on their likes, dislikes

28:08

and lifestyle choices. So this

28:10

fear that began with the Furby, it's still

28:12

happening. Ever

28:17

since I'd set my trap for Garoud in

28:19

the last episode, I'd been thinking

28:22

about those hidden cameras and microphones. And the

28:24

more I told my friends all about it,

28:26

the more they told me about their own

28:28

spying, their sneaky eavesdropping.

28:31

I swear to God, every single one of my WhatsApp

28:33

groups could join M16. The

28:35

legal people had told me that using

28:37

bugs in gadgets was a very grey

28:40

area and that broadcasting secret footage was

28:42

a strict no-no. But I was sure

28:44

lots of people were using them. And when I

28:46

put the call out on my Insta stories, well,

28:49

turns out I was absolutely

28:51

correct. Everyone's at it.

28:53

My mother-in-law's smart TV was linked

28:55

to my sister-in-law's phone. I

28:57

don't think my sister-in-law realised that when the

29:00

TV was on standby, her phone would play

29:02

like a slideshow. She then cheated

29:04

on my brother-in-law and the new guy's dick

29:06

pics would keep appearing on my mother-in-law's TV

29:08

for all to see. Yeah, hi, Durrell. I'm

29:10

an epic story of how putting a tracker

29:12

in my husband's club box led me to

29:14

discover he was living a double life. My

29:17

bestie had a feeling her husband was cheating on

29:19

her, so one morning she put her mobile under

29:21

the front seat of his car. She then listened

29:23

in as he made his way to work. He

29:26

rang his bit on the side during his commute and

29:28

she was able to listen to the whole sordid thing.

29:31

Probably isn't any use to you, but I'm a

29:33

police officer and it's my job to go through

29:35

people's phones when they're seized. Nearly

29:37

everyone I look at is cheating to some degree.

29:41

I'm not gonna lie, I could pretend to be shocked

29:43

by the amount of infidelity in the world, but I'm

29:45

not because I believe we live too long for a

29:47

monogamy, but that is a different podcast. Jamie,

29:49

I hear that you have a terrifying story for

29:51

me about surveillance. violence,

30:00

spying, et cetera. I

30:03

do, unfortunately. I

30:05

was a new mom. I had just had my

30:08

little guy in February of 2018. We

30:11

received a baby monitor as

30:14

a gift from our registry, our Amazon registry.

30:17

It was a Wi-Fi based baby monitor. We

30:19

had an app on our phone so we

30:21

could log in and see just whenever what

30:23

he was doing and sleeping, all of that.

30:26

And everything was fine. I'm

30:28

sure Jamie's story is familiar to any new mother

30:30

out there. My ex

30:32

has been at the time. It would move

30:34

while he was at work. I thought it was

30:36

just him checking in like on a lunch

30:38

break, seeing what, you know, little guy was

30:40

doing. The

30:44

camera would move. So if I was

30:46

laying in bed nursing, for example, the

30:49

camera would move like up and down

30:51

the bed or move over a little

30:53

bit. And again, he was the only

30:55

person with access. So

30:57

for months that was happening. When I did ask

31:00

my ex at the time, that's when he was

31:02

like, I never, I never looked at that once.

31:05

Someone was moving the monitor and

31:08

it wasn't Jamie and it wasn't

31:10

her now ex-husband. We

31:13

had the app on our phones. You could hear

31:16

almost like a little mechanical whirring sound like when

31:18

it would turn or twist. So

31:20

one day we're all in the living room. Sun

31:22

is in the room sleeping. And

31:25

we had my phone propped up and we heard the

31:27

sound, but none of us had our phones in our

31:29

hands to move it. You could only control it through

31:31

the app. Nobody was holding their phones.

31:34

We all looked at my phone and we could see the camera

31:36

moving away from my son and

31:38

over to my bed, scanning

31:41

up and down the bed where we

31:43

normally were and then to the doorways.

31:46

So we jumped up. We unplugged everything. I

31:49

grabbed my son and just like walked out

31:51

of the house. See

31:53

somewhere hacked into

31:56

your baby

31:58

monitor app. and

32:00

was controlling the monitor and spying on you

32:02

in your house. Yes. That

32:06

is absolutely terrifying. I've

32:09

never heard anything like this before in

32:11

my life. Moments

32:13

in as a mom, you're like, great, I've

32:15

failed my child. He's only three months old,

32:17

and now there's possibly these pictures of him,

32:20

you know, in compromising positions. And

32:22

so it really made me look at parenting differently,

32:25

the world differently, definitely a lot more

32:28

skeptical and angry ever since. I

32:33

told everyone that would listen. I was

32:35

on, I did like a Good Morning

32:37

America little interview. We did a different,

32:39

like, news interviews. And

32:42

I just couldn't get it out there enough

32:44

because I thought I was doing all the

32:46

right things, and then I messed up, you

32:48

know. I

32:50

obviously found Jamie's story

32:52

shocking, terrifying, and disgusting.

32:55

And it made me start to question my own approach

32:57

to being online, which I will

32:59

admit is pretty blase. My

33:02

take on it would be before

33:04

I started doing this podcast.

33:06

Why would anyone be arsed looking at what

33:08

I'm doing? I'm not doing anything interesting. Who

33:10

cares? You know, I thought

33:12

spying was, you know, for

33:15

governments and assassins

33:17

and people who are busy out doing

33:20

espionage, not for just

33:22

regular people like us. Jamie

33:25

never did find out who was hacking her, and

33:28

the police didn't either. Changes to

33:30

the law mean it should be much harder for

33:32

these things to happen today. But

33:34

what the case does prove is that

33:36

it was possible. And

33:39

it got me thinking, if so many

33:41

different devices can listen and watch us,

33:43

if my doorbell can listen, my baby

33:46

monitor, my smart toy, what about my

33:48

phone? Because I'll be honest, sometimes

33:51

I'm absolutely convinced it is, and

33:53

sometimes I'm convinced it isn't. Next

33:57

time, Roshan. We're

34:01

going to have a conversation now and our phones are

34:03

going to pick it up and we'll see

34:06

if they try and sell us anything related

34:08

to this conversation. I rope in a friend

34:10

to take part in an ingenious experiment. Who

34:13

invented pickleball? I

34:15

love pickles and I love balls. Who put that word

34:17

together? It's

34:20

a bit Furbies Spionals is produced by

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What's the Story Sounds for BBC Sounds.

34:31

BBC Sounds. Exciting

34:36

times, Ellis. Oh, is it? Why?

34:38

Well, our brand new podcast is here. Two

34:41

releases a week and we get to leave

34:43

behind the shackles of live radio and draconian

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vaping laws of broadcasting house. Ellis,

34:47

we are the pioneers of digital

34:49

Britain, grasping the opportunity to

34:51

redefine the audio landscape through powerful,

34:54

impactful, dynamic conversation. You and I

34:56

will inspire the next generation of

34:59

free thinkers. What are your aims

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and aspirations for this new dawn? I'll

35:04

try to arrive on time and not

35:06

eat mangane. You know what? I'll

35:09

take that. The Ellis James and

35:11

John Robbins podcast, out on Tuesdays

35:14

and Fridays. Listen on BBC Sounds.

35:16

Hey there. Looking

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36:00

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