0:00

The following talk is

0:02

offered freely to ensure

0:05

no one is denied

0:07

access to these

0:09

practices and to these

0:11

teachings. If you feel

0:13

inspired to make a

0:15

donation to support this

0:17

offering you can go

0:19

to my website at

0:21

www. Jonathan Faust.com. And

0:23

while you're there, you

0:25

can also sign up

0:27

for a monthly newsletter

0:30

designed to support you in

0:32

your practice. It'd be a pleasure to have

0:34

you as part of our community. Thank you

0:36

and enjoy. If

0:50

you listen to any of my

0:52

talks or meditations or do any

0:54

retreats with me, you know that

0:57

I'm a pretty body-based semantic inquiry

0:59

kind of guy. And a lot of

1:01

my understanding around this is informed

1:03

by the work of Dr. Eugene

1:06

Genlin and the whole realm and

1:08

discipline of what's called focusing.

1:10

And I'd like to share with you

1:12

today and interview I had with Dr.

1:14

Greg Madison. Greg is in

1:16

my estimation an awesome person. An

1:19

awesome person. He's an

1:21

existential and focusing-oriented

1:23

psychologist. He's a passionate focusing

1:25

teacher. He's dedicated to

1:27

supporting people looking to deepen self-awareness

1:30

and clarity in their life.

1:32

And he has a podcast called

1:34

The Living Process, wherein he interviews

1:37

lots of luminaries and leaders in

1:39

this area of focusing and semantic

1:41

exploration. I really feel honored to

1:44

be part of the conversation. He's

1:46

a deep thinker. He's an empathic listener.

1:48

I think you'll enjoy all of

1:50

his offerings, so I'm going to

1:52

include information about his podcast and

1:55

his work in the show notes. And

1:57

as this is a pretty long interview

1:59

about an... we will forego the

2:01

opening meditation we usually have

2:04

and go right into the

2:06

conversation. And Greg starts this off

2:08

with kind of an overview in a

2:10

summary, so I will leave all of

2:12

that to him. So I hope you find

2:15

the following helpful and

2:17

many blessings. Hello, my name

2:19

is Greg Madison and welcome

2:21

to this episode of The

2:23

Living Process. It's Christmas Eve

2:26

and my special guest this

2:28

time is Jonathan Faust. Jonathan

2:31

is very well known within

2:33

Buddhist communities and also in

2:35

yoga. He is trained in

2:37

a whole list of

2:40

different somatic practices including

2:42

focusing. We talk quite a

2:44

bit about how Jonathan combines

2:47

his understanding as well

2:49

as practice focusing with

2:51

some of these other

2:54

traditions. He describes his

2:56

own personal journey. which is

2:58

very interesting and he's dedicated

3:01

his life to these various

3:03

practices and it really shows

3:05

in the way that he

3:07

interacts and the responses he

3:10

gives to some of my

3:12

questions. We talk a little

3:14

bit about what the body is

3:16

and about energy flow through

3:18

the body. We also end by

3:20

talking a little bit about how

3:22

to bring some of these

3:25

practices or... an attitude of

3:27

compassion to the sort of

3:29

uncertainties in the world today

3:31

and how not to just

3:33

jump into the divisions that we

3:36

see in a lot of

3:38

societies. I really enjoyed

3:40

the conversation. He's a delightful

3:42

man to converse with and

3:45

yeah I hope you really

3:47

enjoy this episode with Jonathan

3:49

Faust. Welcome

4:04

back to the living process

4:07

and my guest this time

4:09

is Jonathan Faust. Welcome

4:11

Jonathan. Thank you. It's a

4:13

it's a privilege and an

4:16

honor to be here with you.

4:18

Yeah well it's a real pleasure

4:20

to have you as a guest.

4:23

We worked quite hard to make

4:25

this happen. Yes it took it

4:27

took some some resilience to make

4:29

this happen. It did. The

4:32

first thing I'd like to ask

4:34

people, and I'd like to ask you,

4:36

is particularly I know

4:38

that you have a much broader kind

4:40

of sense of different traditions

4:42

than just focusing. But if

4:45

I start with the focusing

4:47

question, I'm curious how you

4:49

found focusing or got introduced

4:52

to it or your kind

4:54

of journey with the focusing

4:56

process. Yeah, yeah. Well, that

4:58

question automatically makes me feel

5:01

old. I look back, I feel

5:03

like that old prospector, you know,

5:05

let's see, I was back in

5:07

83. So way back when I had

5:09

been in the Peace Corps,

5:12

I was teaching in a

5:14

university, teaching phonetics and linguistics,

5:17

and just to shake up

5:19

my life, I attempted to

5:21

be the first American to

5:23

cross the Sahara Desert on

5:26

my bicycle from the south,

5:28

which didn't happen. And I

5:30

ended up going through all

5:32

kinds of crazy adventures, and

5:34

I actually ended up stumbling

5:37

into an ashram, literally stumbling

5:39

into an ashram when I

5:41

was, I think, 25. And

5:43

there was this book, Jenlin's

5:46

book, Unfocuseding. And I picked

5:48

it up, and I just read a

5:51

little bit of it, and I

5:53

did a little reflection, and I

5:55

had this really powerful shift. like

5:57

a really dramatic shift.

5:59

And it was like, wow,

6:01

there's something really, really juicy here.

6:04

And then I got sucked

6:06

into ashram life, and so, which

6:08

was a very, very deep, deep

6:11

immersion into yoga, you know, into

6:13

the whole field of energy

6:15

and exploring all of that, you

6:17

know, kind of the, maybe we can

6:19

talk more about, about that and

6:22

how to sort of, how that's

6:24

come into my own practice with

6:26

focusing. So I got to put

6:28

the book down, got very immersed

6:30

into that world, and we did

6:32

a, it was a very sense-based

6:35

couple decades. You know, I'd like

6:37

to joke, I came for lunch

6:39

and I stayed for 23 years

6:41

in the ashra. And then when

6:43

my time was done and we

6:45

went through all kinds of changes

6:47

as a community, we had to

6:50

re-visualize ourselves after we

6:52

had a kind of a meltdown

6:54

with our our guru, our teacher

6:56

and... for a couple years I

6:59

was president and then I was

7:01

done. And then I moved down

7:03

to Washington DC, fell in love

7:05

with my wife and I remembered,

7:08

oh focusing, I want to get

7:10

back to that. So I did

7:12

my training with Robert Lee and

7:15

domain focusing, which is fantastic. And

7:17

at the time I was very

7:19

deeply immersed in Buddhist psychology and

7:21

sort of teaching through that lens

7:24

and just a synergy. of my

7:26

training, the whole felt sense of

7:28

my own learning and offering it

7:31

out into the world has

7:33

just been fantastic. So from

7:35

there, I've done a year-long

7:38

training, I've done 10 times

7:40

where we do a whole

7:42

year of deep immersion into

7:45

into the practice in the

7:47

context of meditation and Buddha

7:49

psychology. So that was a

7:52

long response to a very,

7:54

very simple question. Immediately, I'm

7:56

very curious about sort

8:00

of the different avenues, if I

8:02

could call them that, the Buddhist,

8:05

the yoga, and then the focusing

8:07

that it sounds like it came

8:09

in briefly, it receded, and then

8:11

it came back. And I'm curious how

8:14

those three go together if they

8:16

do, or do they remain separate

8:18

for you? It's all one whole, one

8:20

whole, mish-mash, but in essence,

8:22

and what was so interesting

8:25

was having that sort of

8:27

like epiphany experience of reading.

8:29

reading Genle's book and being

8:31

so immersed into the whole

8:33

realm of yoga, my guru's

8:35

guru said that the whole world

8:37

is made up of two elements.

8:40

In Sanskrit, it's referred

8:42

to as chita and prana,

8:44

awareness and energy. And in those

8:46

two realms of energy and awareness,

8:49

you have the whole span of

8:51

awareness from from thoughts to beliefs

8:53

to states to awareness itself. and

8:55

the realm of energy we have

8:57

we've got life force we have

8:59

the feeling tone of the life

9:02

force we have kind of the

9:04

expression of life force and our

9:06

entire life is about balancing chit

9:08

that prana so when you're two

9:10

in your head you come home you've been

9:12

wound up after a long day what do

9:14

you want to do you gonna drink a

9:16

beer you're gonna put in some

9:19

music you know dance around the

9:21

room work out take your dog

9:23

for a walk do something to

9:25

get the energy flowing And then

9:27

the times when there's too much

9:29

energy were kind of over-prongified, if

9:31

you will, you know, or strong

9:34

emotion or hypervigilance, we kind of,

9:36

we want to, we want to

9:38

get a handle on what's going.

9:40

So we're going to kind of

9:42

lean into more of the conceptual.

9:44

So we're always trying to balance

9:46

these two things out. And yoga

9:49

is about, really about exploring

9:51

this, the awakening of this energy.

9:54

And part of what the suggestion is

9:56

that that energy or Prana or life

9:58

force or cheap or or holy

10:00

spirit, is it possible that

10:02

it is intelligent and evolutionary?

10:05

And if we can deeply

10:07

listen to it, is it

10:09

possible that it is bringing

10:11

us inexorably toward a more

10:13

awakened quality of awareness? So

10:15

I'm immediately curious whether that

10:17

is perhaps different language and

10:20

maybe even a different understanding,

10:22

but also applies to what

10:24

we do in focusing when

10:26

we bring our awareness to

10:28

a felt sense. Is that

10:30

the same as Prana and

10:32

Chita? To my mind, absolutely.

10:35

Absolutely. Because what happens, let's

10:37

say, just to bring it

10:39

back to yoga. Yeah. Let's

10:41

say you're in a yoga

10:43

posture, you know, you're in

10:45

like the triangle pose, you

10:47

know, trichinacena, and you're suffering,

10:49

you know. You're hanging on

10:52

for dear life. You're aware

10:54

of what's not moving. You're

10:56

aware of what's congested, what's

10:58

stagnant, what's stuck. And you

11:00

breathe into it. And you

11:02

relax into it. You feel

11:04

into it. You get more

11:07

familiar with it. And then

11:09

what happens is that... stagnant,

11:11

congested stuck energy will begin

11:13

to move. It'll begin to

11:15

shift. And then you feel

11:17

the rush, the endorphan rush

11:19

of that release of tension.

11:22

And then what happens is,

11:24

again, if energy is intelligent

11:26

and evolutionary, it'll go to

11:28

the next place where it's

11:30

blocked, because it's designed to

11:32

move into a sense of

11:34

free flow, if you will.

11:36

So it's the same thing.

11:39

In my simplified view. Yeah,

11:41

I mean that's really interesting

11:43

to me. As I listen

11:45

to you, I was thinking

11:47

it sounds very similar, different

11:49

kind of conceptualization of what's

11:51

happening perhaps, but... Very similar,

11:54

and then I thought, are

11:56

we talking about the same

11:58

body? Because when you're talking

12:00

about the yoga body, it

12:02

sounds like in some way,

12:04

I think you're talking about

12:06

more than this, but in

12:09

some way you're talking about

12:11

the physiological body and tension,

12:13

muscle tension, but that signifies

12:15

more than just muscle tension,

12:17

is that right? Yoga describes

12:19

it as the prona body.

12:21

It's the energy body. Okay.

12:23

Yeah, so it's a subtle

12:26

body. Okay, so that's similar

12:28

to focusing then, the films.

12:30

Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And

12:32

how I view it is,

12:34

we have this level of

12:36

a pure prana of life

12:38

force, which is kind of

12:41

undifferentiated. You know, it's neither

12:43

good nor bad. And then,

12:45

and then here, it kind

12:47

of brings them sort of

12:49

like the Buddhist perspective is.

12:51

That experience of energy is

12:53

immediately experienced in one of

12:56

three categories of pleasant, unpleasant,

12:58

or neutral. And the Buddhist

13:00

angle is referred to as

13:02

beta-na. It's the feeling tone.

13:04

And then without being aware,

13:06

usually, we react to the

13:08

feeling tone. And then that

13:10

will kick off. It kicks

13:13

off the associations, memories, thoughts,

13:15

all the reactive patterns, usually

13:17

wanting to move away from

13:19

unpleasant, increase pleasure, and get

13:21

bored with the neutral. Yeah.

13:23

So this is jumping way

13:25

ahead, but I have to

13:28

ask it now. Because that

13:30

sounds like a very full

13:32

understanding and practice. And I'm

13:34

wondering what would have made

13:36

you interested in kind of

13:38

coming back to focusing? A

13:40

couple things. This goes back

13:43

to my own history, kind

13:45

of back to the back

13:47

of the whole. you know,

13:49

living in spiritual community and

13:51

this whole kind of immersed

13:53

in the energetic world. I

13:55

became fascinated with, what does

13:57

it mean to heal? You

14:00

know, so I got trained

14:02

in lots of hands-on modalities.

14:04

You know, we're working with

14:06

energy, you know, trigger work,

14:08

structural acupressure, cranial sacral, and

14:10

it's just fascinated by how,

14:12

like, how subtly can we

14:15

detect what's not flowing, bring

14:17

attention to it. And then

14:19

sort of track that energetic

14:21

release and, you know, where

14:23

it goes next. It's endlessly

14:25

fascinating to me. So years

14:27

later, when I kind of

14:30

left the whole community and

14:32

I moved down to the

14:34

DC area, I thought, like,

14:36

how do I work with

14:38

people? And part of it

14:40

is, you know, the hands-on

14:42

work is really fun. It's

14:44

also highly licensed and all

14:47

that kind of stuff. I

14:49

thought, well, I work a

14:51

lot with people through mindfulness

14:53

and through meditation. Well, here's

14:55

focusing, which is perhaps even

14:57

the most subtle form of

14:59

this kind of work. As

15:02

you contrast it to sort

15:04

of like the gross manipulation

15:06

of tissue, as opposed to

15:08

how do we bring attention

15:10

to what's stagnant, what's stuck,

15:12

how do we work that?

15:14

And of course, that opens

15:17

up this endlessly fascinating world

15:19

of the power of inquiry

15:21

around. working with what's not

15:23

fully alive. Yeah, yeah, or

15:25

what's somehow asking for the

15:27

next step in life or

15:29

something. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, it's

15:31

like, where's the, you know,

15:34

where's the stress? Where's the

15:36

suffering? Or if we think

15:38

of the two wings of

15:40

mindfulness, you know, one wing

15:42

is a wing of wisdom,

15:44

you know, what is, what

15:46

is actually presenting right now?

15:49

What, what, what, what is

15:51

this, what is Can I

15:53

name it? And then, loving

15:55

awareness, how does this want?

15:57

to be with that? Which

15:59

are the two elemental questions

16:01

in focusing? Yeah, that's one

16:04

of the things I was

16:06

wondering when you were describing

16:08

the yoga practice, whether there

16:10

is that kind of gentle,

16:12

kind, loving sort of awareness

16:14

to the stuck places. Is

16:16

that a part of the

16:18

practice? We know what's so

16:21

interesting is in the span

16:23

of yoga, you've got in

16:25

any tradition. And this includes

16:27

both yoga and in meditation.

16:29

When I first heard this,

16:31

an author by the name

16:33

of Jason Siff, he wrote

16:36

a book called Unlearning meditation.

16:38

When I first heard this,

16:40

I thought, that's crazy. And

16:42

I thought, I thought, no,

16:44

it's true. He said, whatever

16:46

tradition you get trained in,

16:48

you can find another tradition

16:51

that will give you exactly

16:53

the opposite instructions. And

16:55

that's so, because in yoga,

16:57

you've got the intensely willful

16:59

practice, you know, where you're,

17:01

you know, just pushed through

17:04

the energy blocks. And then

17:06

you have traditions that are

17:08

all around surrender, you know,

17:10

and listening and softening and

17:12

flow. And my training was

17:14

more in kind of in

17:16

the flow realm of Krapalo

17:18

yoga. But the same thing

17:20

with meditation, you can do

17:22

like the sitings of strong

17:24

determination where you're developing, you

17:26

know, you're developing that intense

17:28

focus. And then there are

17:30

the traditions of just trust

17:32

the unfolding of what's there.

17:34

It reminds me of psychotherapy

17:36

because it certainly has all

17:38

of that spectrum as well.

17:40

But then it makes me

17:42

think of focusing. In the

17:44

focusing world, I wonder if

17:46

in some ways we also

17:48

have that spectrum. kind of

17:50

from boot camp focusing to,

17:52

you know, very gentle focusing.

17:54

Absolutely, but I think, and

17:56

again, this is just my,

17:59

my perspective is what we're

18:01

really helping. to do is

18:03

to find their own authority.

18:05

You know, one of the

18:07

most powerful inquiries I can

18:09

offer someone in focusing when

18:11

we're in touch with the

18:13

felt sense. We have a

18:15

sense of what it is.

18:17

We can sense the tenfold

18:19

of it. We can sense

18:21

how old it is. Is

18:23

there a sense of how

18:25

this wants you to be

18:27

with it right now? Yeah.

18:29

And I love that question

18:31

because... When you pose that

18:33

question and you wait, the

18:35

most amazing things arise out

18:37

of that, which is really

18:39

coming from the individual's own

18:41

place of authority. Yeah, that

18:43

makes sense. Yeah, no, that

18:45

makes perfect sense to me.

18:47

Yeah, that in the focusing

18:49

practice, there is... There

18:53

is a tradition, but it's a

18:55

tradition that maybe has a slightly

18:57

different role than some other traditions

19:00

in that it's not a tradition

19:02

that can offer any sort of

19:04

external authority about how to practice.

19:07

It's only a tradition that points

19:09

you to your own authority to

19:11

discover what practice is right for

19:14

you. Exactly. It points to what

19:16

I think of as the pathless

19:19

path. Yeah. And in the path

19:21

of path, we really only have

19:23

two questions. What's happening right now?

19:26

How does it want me to

19:28

be with it? Like what's the

19:30

most important thing as I'm with

19:33

this right now? I'm not sure

19:35

there's anything else in any given

19:37

moment if we really segment out

19:40

our experience. Yeah, yeah, I mean

19:42

that definitely resonates for me. And

19:44

I think probably in the focusing

19:47

world there's... that tendency towards a

19:49

kind of resistance to authority and

19:52

perhaps a slight kind of anarchy

19:54

that is not in any way

19:56

chaotic. Yeah, yeah. And that's what

19:59

I love about, of course, about

20:01

Genlin and what I love about

20:03

the old-timers is, you know, I

20:06

think I've mentioned this to you

20:08

in an email. It's like, there's

20:10

a sense of anarchy that I

20:13

love because it really is around

20:15

individual awakening. There's no there's no

20:17

cookie cutter approach here at all.

20:20

Yeah, exactly. So I'm wondering from

20:22

your perspective, because you've had so

20:25

much experience in these other traditions,

20:27

what in your view could they

20:29

potentially offer to someone that has

20:32

a focusing practice? Well, I think

20:34

when we... When we kind of

20:36

look at the, let's just say

20:39

we look to the kind of

20:41

the Buddhist lens, yeah, and we

20:43

look through these, the two wings

20:46

of wisdom and compassion, you know,

20:48

wisdom being, recognizing what's true, not

20:50

your preference, not your embellishment, but

20:53

what's true, and then really exploring

20:55

how to hold it, you know,

20:58

how does this want me to

21:00

be with it? The one model,

21:02

which you may be familiar with,

21:05

is the model, it's called a

21:07

rain model, R-A-A-I-N-N, R-I-I-N, R-I-I-I-N, Which

21:09

is a really wonderful synergy with

21:12

focusing. This was created by Michelle

21:14

McDonald originally and my wife Tara

21:16

Brock kind of reworked it. She

21:19

has a book out on this.

21:21

And the rain model is very

21:23

powerful. The R is to recognize

21:26

or realize what's presenting. The A

21:28

is to ask yourself, can I

21:30

allow it? Can I accept it?

21:33

The eyes to investigate. And then

21:35

there's sort of two versions of

21:38

rain. The N initially was to,

21:40

was around. not identifying and then

21:42

Tara kind of reworked it and

21:45

actually nurture which is like calling

21:47

on, calling on loving presence and

21:49

kind of ties also into domain

21:52

focusing which I which I studied

21:54

with with Robert Lee. But I

21:56

find like the questions, you know,

21:59

the inquiries that arise, you know,

22:01

to recognize like what is this,

22:03

you know, like that just that

22:06

sense of like what is this,

22:08

like what is this, like what

22:11

is this, like, like what is

22:13

this, like, like what is this,

22:15

like, like what is this, like

22:18

what is this, like, like, like,

22:20

And then, can you be with

22:22

it? And here, always, I just

22:25

encourage people, like, that's a deeply

22:27

somatic inquiry. Can't be with it.

22:29

Is it okay? Listen for the

22:32

somatic response, because it may not

22:34

be the right, the right, there

22:36

might, may not be the right

22:39

time. You know, there are these

22:41

qualities in, sort of like through

22:44

the Buddhist lens of the factors

22:46

of awakening. You know, there's certain

22:48

factors of awakening that are kind

22:51

of required to be present. You

22:53

have to have access to non-judging

22:55

awareness. You know, you have to

22:58

have a quality of concentration to

23:00

actually stay present. You have to

23:02

have a quality of curiosity of

23:05

curiosity to kind of want to

23:07

know more. You have to have

23:09

a quality of what's called rapture,

23:12

which is like the joy of

23:14

discovery. You have to have a

23:16

quality of steadiness. You have to

23:19

got to have fire power. You

23:21

need energy. You need energy. And

23:24

so that question of can I

23:26

be with it? And it's a

23:28

very very simple question, but to

23:31

really recognize that you may not

23:33

have the fire power. You just

23:35

may not have physical energy to

23:38

be with it. You may not

23:40

have access to mindfulness. So if

23:42

you get that somatic response, I

23:45

can't be with it right now.

23:47

It's too much. It's that whole

23:49

idea of letting it know you

23:52

see it. Letting it know your

23:54

intention is to be with it.

23:57

That's another time when the conditions

23:59

are different. your intention is to

24:01

be present with it. And it's

24:04

such a powerful step that I

24:06

think it's overlooked by a lot

24:08

of people. We have this sense

24:11

of, I just need to muscle

24:13

through this. And I'm not sure

24:15

that's so skillful. Yeah, no, I

24:18

totally agree. Can I be with

24:20

this in such a way that

24:22

I don't violate it at all?

24:25

Yeah. Yeah. And I love the,

24:27

you know, the analogy of, you

24:30

know, the felt senses, the wild

24:32

animal at the edge of the

24:34

edge of the edge of the

24:37

edge of the woods, the woods,

24:39

the woods, you know. You can't

24:41

seduce it in, you can't chase

24:44

it, but you can let it

24:46

know you see it. And that's

24:48

such a delicate, delicate relationship. So

24:51

that's the A. And then the

24:53

I, of course, is to investigate.

24:55

And I think we know we

24:58

have a tendency, particularly in the

25:00

West, to like have it be

25:02

an intellectual investigation. When the investigation

25:05

here is deeply, deeply semantic. And

25:07

if there is an investigation around

25:10

thoughts and beliefs, it's so important

25:12

to connect the dots back to

25:14

the felt sense, of course. And

25:17

then, and then again, you know,

25:19

through the focusing model, you know,

25:21

when you have that, when you

25:24

really have that sense of what

25:26

this is and the tendrils and

25:28

all of that, what happens when

25:31

I bring loving presence to this?

25:33

You know, and all the all

25:35

the variations of the inquiries around

25:38

that. you know, how does this

25:40

want me to be with it

25:43

right now? If I were simply

25:45

to hold this in loving presence,

25:47

how does it move or shift

25:50

or change? So that rain model

25:52

I find to be incredibly, it's

25:54

an incredible handle for people to

25:57

deeply move into more semantic inquiry.

25:59

Yeah, very, very useful. I agree

26:01

with everything you've said and a

26:04

question that arises for me. which

26:06

is a question to myself as

26:08

much as to you or anyone

26:11

else, is just why do you

26:13

think it is that the body

26:16

needs these particular qualities? Why is

26:18

it not possible to coax or

26:20

coerce or push the body or

26:23

the felt sense forward? Why is

26:25

it these particular kind of non-invasive

26:27

yet carrying curiosity welcoming? Why are

26:30

those qualities? Why is that what

26:32

life response to? You know, I,

26:34

with one of the best lines

26:37

I've ever heard, I sat a

26:39

couple retreats with the teacher by

26:41

the name of Soakni Rampache, who

26:44

taught very much from the kind

26:46

of the Zochen, the non-dual tradition,

26:49

and he talked about compassion. And

26:51

he said, compassion is the lubrication

26:53

that allows us to let go

26:56

what we know we need to

26:58

let go of. And I love

27:00

that. I love that. There's another

27:03

quote I love from a teacher

27:05

of Emmanuel who said, that there's

27:07

not a heart in this world

27:10

that would not open instantly if

27:12

it did not feel safe enough.

27:14

And I feel like there's something

27:17

to be said for, you know,

27:19

the powering through, the muscling through,

27:21

the, you know, pushing, you know,

27:24

pushing edges and building resilience. And

27:26

there's a lot to be said

27:29

for exploring that sense of loving

27:31

presence, you know, of... of that

27:33

like deep and pathic listening, you

27:36

know, for so many people. And

27:38

again, it's a cliche, but most

27:40

cliches are true. There is an

27:43

element of spiritual reparenting here, you

27:45

know. Does that make sense? It

27:47

makes sense, but it's still, maybe

27:50

it's not a question. Maybe I'm

27:52

the only one that makes this

27:54

into a question, but I still

27:57

wonder. Why is compassion such a

27:59

powerful attitude or approach? environment for

28:02

the body or for the being

28:04

or for the person or for

28:06

life on the one hand and

28:09

then related to that

28:11

it's always surprised me

28:13

how even when someone

28:15

myself or anyone else

28:17

is really quite suffering

28:20

if with a focusing guide

28:22

or anyone else If you

28:25

can invite the person to

28:27

kind of take a step

28:30

back into that more compassionate

28:32

approach to themselves and give

28:35

the feeling some space and

28:37

just be open to it,

28:39

welcome it, all of that kind

28:41

of language, how often

28:44

it actually readily is

28:46

available? How is it that

28:48

it's almost as though? We

28:51

kind of make ourselves

28:54

small and self-preservation

28:56

that is always

28:58

there to open up to. I

29:00

mean, how do you understand

29:02

that? It's a really powerful

29:05

question, but I think

29:07

my question for you

29:09

is, what works for you? When

29:12

you find yourself small,

29:14

caught in

29:16

self-preservation, etc.

29:18

That's always what works

29:20

for me is immediately to

29:22

give myself space, but not

29:25

a kind of an objective

29:27

cold sort of clinical space,

29:29

but a space that is

29:32

welcoming, that has at least

29:34

some caring, that suddenly I'm

29:36

curious about myself as

29:39

a being again, that that

29:41

kind of space that

29:43

is totally non-critical, non-judgmental

29:47

that. Always my body expands

29:49

in response to that. Yeah,

29:51

so I'm right there with you.

29:54

And I think from the

29:56

lens of Buddhist psychology or

29:58

Buddhist philosophy that the That access

30:00

to heart space, that access

30:03

to compassion is a training. Yeah,

30:05

it's referred to as meta,

30:07

you know, cultivating loving kindness.

30:10

It's like this little sprout

30:12

that requires a greenhouse for

30:15

protection. You know, because we

30:17

are so trained out of it,

30:19

you know, from such an early

30:22

age, you know, that negativity bias

30:24

is so, so intense. So in

30:26

classic method training. Well, there are

30:29

different variations of it, but you

30:31

reflect on your benefactors, you know,

30:33

you just reflect on the people

30:36

who you know are on your

30:38

side, you know, and you just

30:40

stream attention toward that. And

30:42

again, you can do it intellectually,

30:45

but the real work is doing

30:47

it sematically, you know, so you

30:49

actually access, what is it like

30:51

to, when you think about people

30:53

who you know like you, who

30:55

the people who laugh at your

30:58

jokes, you know, like to really

31:00

reflect into that. And then to

31:02

explore what's easy. And that's where

31:04

you start with your pets, you

31:06

know, with plants, you know, and

31:08

then you start to, you just

31:10

stream attention. Again, it's moving

31:13

from the thought into the

31:15

end of the felt sense. when you

31:17

increase your capacity for it. And

31:19

remember I did a month-long retreat,

31:21

and the first week was on

31:23

benefactor and on self, and then

31:25

the next week was on focusing

31:28

on the easy people, and

31:30

then the next week was

31:32

finding a neutral person. You

31:34

just choose one person, you

31:36

don't have any antipathy tour,

31:38

but no great attraction. And

31:40

just... for 45 minutes every

31:42

day. You're wishing that person

31:44

well. You're wishing them ease.

31:46

And I chose our retreat

31:48

manager who struck me as

31:50

a kind but unremarkable person.

31:53

And so every day in

31:55

about day five of that

31:57

retreat, of that week, I'm

31:59

just. sitting and she walked into

32:01

the room and like my heart started

32:03

fluttering. I thought, oh my beloved

32:05

has arrived, which is immediately followed

32:07

by like, oh my God, am

32:09

I falling in love with the

32:11

retreat manager? No, but like what

32:14

we pay attention to gets bigger,

32:16

which is again back to the

32:18

yogic thing of like, oh I

32:20

actually, Prana follows chita, what you

32:22

focus on, a felt sense will

32:24

come with it if you entrain

32:26

yourself on it. And the final week

32:28

is on, is choosing the difficult

32:30

person. You know, and a story

32:32

I often tell is when I

32:35

had my interview with the teacher

32:37

that final week with someone who

32:39

really betrayed me, I said, well,

32:42

here's where I am in my

32:44

forgiveness practice. I have come to

32:46

realize I can completely forget this

32:48

person as long as I'm a

32:51

surety burns in hell for eternity.

32:53

Which was progress? Yes. Yeah.

32:55

And then later actually, just

32:57

a few days later, suddenly

33:00

I got the role reversal.

33:02

You know, I was able to

33:04

like, oh, this is what he

33:06

was needing that wasn't happening. This

33:08

is why he threw me under

33:10

the bus and just such an

33:13

incredible rush of insight and

33:15

forgiveness. So all this to say,

33:18

it's a training. You know, it's

33:20

really training ourselves to look

33:22

for the good. And, um... And we

33:24

each have our own path. And we

33:27

each have our own wiring. How

33:29

do we wire ourselves

33:31

to loving presence? It's

33:33

unique for every one

33:35

of us. Yeah. It's interesting.

33:37

You use the term training

33:40

and I would use the term

33:42

on learning. And yet I think

33:44

we're talking about exactly

33:46

the same thing. Yep.

33:48

Exactly. When I listen to

33:50

you, I think. It sounds to

33:52

me. in addition to everything else it

33:55

is, it sounds to me very

33:57

therapeutic. And it makes me wonder...

34:00

Does psychotherapy

34:02

add anything else

34:04

to what it is

34:07

that you're talking

34:09

about? It's a

34:11

really good question.

34:13

You know, for me,

34:16

because my meditation

34:19

practice is

34:21

so central. No.

34:24

It really is

34:26

around awakening. you know,

34:28

whatever you want to call that,

34:30

you know, awakening to true nature,

34:33

awakening to who I am beyond

34:35

a separate self. And I had

34:37

a really interesting conversation with Dr.

34:40

Jenlin way, way, way back when,

34:42

when I was doing my training, one

34:44

of the conferences, and I noted

34:46

how in doing my partnerships

34:48

and so forth, how so

34:50

many people who get trained

34:52

in focusing are psychologically oriented,

34:54

you know, and... And usually you're,

34:56

you know, what I would find

34:58

is when in my partnerships that people

35:01

would have some issue, you know, some

35:03

emotional issue. And as we would move

35:05

into the felt sensing and naming

35:07

and so forth and kind of

35:09

following that model, there'd be some kind

35:11

of a shift. And then as soon as

35:14

there's some kind of shift, it'd be like,

35:16

okay, well, what else can I focus on?

35:18

And I noticed for myself, and this

35:20

was my question to Jenlin, like, like,

35:23

isn't the shift? something

35:25

we should really pay attention

35:28

to because isn't that shift

35:30

a shift in identity?

35:32

Like what happened? Like when

35:35

that issue dissolves along

35:37

with the, along with the

35:39

felt shift, what is that?

35:41

And it was really fun. We

35:43

had a great exchange around

35:46

it and then he kind of

35:48

like guided it back to, you

35:50

know, back to the psychological. But

35:53

I find it's sort of like,

35:55

I'm really kind of sharing your

35:57

question, like what is the difference?

35:59

You know, because when I look

36:01

at the model of rain, you

36:03

know, back to here's what's presenting,

36:06

you know, whether it be of

36:08

physical pain or emotional turmoil or

36:10

mental agitation, you know, you track

36:13

it back to the felt sense,

36:15

you sense, can I be with

36:17

it? And you move into

36:20

that into that investigation.

36:22

I'm not sure there's a difference.

36:24

Yeah, I, I'm at that point as

36:27

well. I keep asking myself

36:29

really. What is the difference?

36:31

What is it, especially if

36:33

you're focusing oriented therapist of

36:36

some kind? What are we offering,

36:38

I guess calling myself one of

36:40

them, what are we offering

36:42

that really is substantially different

36:44

or in any way more

36:46

than what you're describing? And I'm

36:48

not sure. I'm not sure if, apart

36:50

from a regular meeting and the

36:53

relationship that grows from that, but

36:55

otherwise. I'm not too sure, but

36:57

I want to go back to

36:59

what you just said. That's more

37:02

interesting to me is I could imagine

37:04

gentlemen liking the question. And

37:06

I think what you're saying, this is I

37:08

want to say it back to you to

37:10

see if I've got it, is I think

37:13

what you're saying is that you have

37:15

noticed, at least at that time, and

37:17

I would agree if this is what

37:19

you're saying, that in the partnerships, the

37:21

person that's focusing is almost looking

37:24

for What is the psychological trouble

37:26

that I'm dealing with in my

37:28

life at the moment? And finding

37:31

a way to be with that,

37:33

potentially getting some kind of shift

37:35

in their understanding, and then immediately

37:37

looking for, okay, what else is

37:39

here? Or, okay, so what's it

37:41

like now? And kind of following

37:44

the, following the path of the trouble.

37:46

And I think what you're suggesting is,

37:48

hold on a second. Something

37:50

quite profound just happened

37:52

there. Stay longer with that

37:54

shift, you know, and who are

37:57

you now and welcome just

37:59

that. shift and stay with

38:01

that before you start looking

38:03

for any more trouble. Yes,

38:05

it's around can we sustain

38:07

attention on that sort of

38:09

like dissolution of the small

38:12

self? Yes. And open to

38:14

the sense of what's left,

38:16

you know, the awareness itself,

38:18

you know, in the model

38:20

of rain, you know, my

38:22

wife talks about after the

38:24

rain, which is just after

38:26

you've done the inquiry. Slow

38:28

down, check out that space.

38:30

Yeah. Like a question that

38:32

I love, an inquiry, I

38:34

love to work with people

38:36

is when they're aware of

38:38

a pattern, you know, and

38:40

they sense the tendrils of

38:43

that pattern. And I ask,

38:45

who are you without that

38:47

imprint? Wow. Yeah. It's so,

38:49

so powerful. Yeah. Or if

38:51

you're investigating a belief, you

38:53

know, and if you follow

38:55

the model of Byron Katie,

38:57

you know. You know, you

38:59

find a belief that's really

39:01

core. You ask yourself, is

39:03

it true? You know, and

39:05

then is it really true?

39:07

Because the first response is,

39:09

of course, because I believe

39:11

it. And then what's it

39:13

like when you think that

39:16

thought? And in that model,

39:18

so many people hang out

39:20

intellectually. You know, well, here's

39:22

how I view it. But

39:24

if you move from the

39:26

conceptual into the felt sense.

39:28

Like, how does that believe

39:30

live in your nervous system?

39:32

Yeah. You know, when you

39:34

sense how old it is,

39:36

when you sense the tendrils

39:38

of how that, how that

39:40

lives inside, and then you

39:42

throw, then you pull out

39:44

the samurai sword, when there's

39:46

that real sense of this,

39:49

this is how it lives

39:51

on the inside, and you

39:53

ask, who are you without

39:55

that thought? It's just stunning.

39:57

And the question is, like,

39:59

yeah. Yeah. And we bear

40:01

hanging out in that space.

40:03

Yeah. Yeah. Some people. Can't

40:05

yeah, I've literally had people

40:07

fall out of their chair

40:09

on that question And some

40:11

people Will have some capacity

40:13

to hang out there in

40:15

That just that quality of

40:17

presence, you know, where where

40:20

a construct is no longer

40:22

and no longer has any

40:24

ground and how no longer

40:26

has any roots. It's so

40:28

exciting So that's an invitation

40:30

to an experience of self

40:32

that is no longer constricted

40:34

by that identity or belief

40:36

or whatever. An invitation for

40:38

the larger self, whatever you

40:40

want to call that. Yeah,

40:42

well, and you can call

40:44

it anything you want. Yeah,

40:46

exactly. I really like that,

40:48

and I think in the

40:50

focusing world, what you've said

40:53

about it is exactly how

40:55

I would also see it.

40:57

often enough, have a practice

40:59

of, I think, two things.

41:01

One, staying with the body

41:03

that actually isn't in a

41:05

state of trouble and allowing

41:07

it to expand. And then

41:09

it becomes, I think, a

41:11

little bit closer to the

41:13

spiritual practices you're describing. And

41:15

the other opportunity maybe to

41:17

do that is to stay

41:19

with a felt sense that's

41:21

positive, something that feels good

41:23

and to invite more and

41:26

more of it. Exactly. Yes.

41:28

To get more familiar with

41:30

kind of this unbound quality

41:32

of consciousness. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

41:34

You know, and so I

41:36

think there's some beautiful tools

41:38

that at least have occurred

41:40

to me in my own

41:42

practice of like helping people

41:44

access their own sense of

41:46

wisdom. You know, quite often,

41:48

you know, at the end

41:50

of like a process to

41:52

ask. What advice do you

41:54

have to give yourself? You

41:57

know, which is just a

41:59

very simple way of kind

42:01

of tuning in to wisdom,

42:03

if you will. Or, you

42:05

know, given all that you've

42:07

felt and named, everything that

42:09

shift and moved, what's the

42:11

most important thing in your

42:13

life right now? And then

42:15

again, that sense of like

42:17

listening and waiting can be

42:19

so, so, so powerful. But

42:21

I think a lot of

42:23

it is, again, when we

42:25

put it back in the

42:27

context of... spiritual practice, if

42:30

you will. I'm just reminded

42:32

how in the Zogchen tradition,

42:34

which is kind of the

42:36

non-dual tradition, there's a sutra

42:38

which is considered like the

42:40

flower, like if you distill

42:42

it all down in the

42:44

Zog tradition, all comes down

42:46

to these lines, utterly awake,

42:48

since doors wide open, utterly

42:50

open, non-fix, non-fixating awareness, non-fixating

42:52

awareness, non-fixating awareness, non-fixating awareness,

42:54

non-fix fixating awareness, non-fixating, non-fixating

42:56

fixating awareness-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix-fix- It's

43:00

so powerful because it's about

43:03

opening, opening deeply, since doors

43:05

wide open, and cultivating that

43:08

sense of non-fixating awareness or

43:10

presence. And I think part

43:13

of the focusing experiences were,

43:15

we're getting tiny glimpses or

43:18

big glimpses as we move

43:20

into this kind of inquiry.

43:23

Yeah, I love that. It

43:25

makes me think of two

43:28

different things. One is. that

43:31

if we if we think

43:33

of the focusing practice as

43:36

this gradual expanding or unfolding

43:38

or blossoming or something so

43:40

that the we're guided by

43:43

increasing openness that somehow that

43:45

is the guide that feels

43:48

right to me. Yeah. this

43:50

lens of Buddhist psychology of

43:52

what's called verified faith. You

43:55

know, and verified faith is,

43:57

is where it's not, the

44:00

opposite of verified faith is

44:02

magical thinking. You know, I'll

44:04

just think happy thoughts and

44:07

I'll be happy. But verified

44:09

faith is when you move

44:12

into that openness and you

44:14

realize that when you are

44:16

open and when you are

44:19

curious and when you can

44:21

access loving presence that there's

44:24

a power and a potency

44:26

is that you become you

44:28

have more and more of

44:31

a verified sense of this

44:33

is this is a journey

44:35

this is a technique this

44:38

is a process that that

44:40

works because it's worked before

44:43

and I think that's part

44:45

of like the you know

44:47

what growing our prefrontal cortex

44:50

and all that all that

44:52

stuff that happens but but

44:55

just that sense of like

44:57

a deepening sense of trust

44:59

in and how this process

45:02

of unfolding or awakening happens.

45:04

Yes it also reminds me

45:07

of the the first step

45:09

as Jen then first conceived

45:11

of it of clearing a

45:14

space. and how that

45:16

sometimes, and I know in

45:18

my own practice when I

45:20

have started with clearing a

45:22

space, often I don't go

45:24

on and focus. None of

45:26

those things seem very important

45:28

anymore. The cleared space was

45:30

the answer somehow. Yeah, yeah,

45:32

yeah. Yeah, what's between you

45:34

and feeling free is a

45:36

really powerful co-an. Yeah, you

45:38

know, because you have to

45:40

actually tune in to what

45:42

freedom is. Exactly. Yeah. Would

45:44

you see focusing as a

45:46

non-dual practice? I think it

45:48

has the possibility. I really

45:50

think it does. You know,

45:52

I think there's a tendency

45:54

to think that non- non-dual

45:56

means you're divorced from your

45:58

body, you know, that it's

46:00

just pure, it's just pure

46:02

awareness without a body. When

46:04

I, and when I go

46:06

back to that Zogjansutra, which

46:08

has been around for, you

46:10

know, a couple thousand years,

46:12

it's actually about awakened, awakened

46:14

in the felt sense. And

46:16

if you look at it

46:18

through the yoga perspective, you

46:20

know, it's the, it's the

46:22

purified. Like there's a quality

46:24

of purification. You know, yoga

46:26

talks about krias. You know,

46:29

and krias are the purification

46:31

experience. It's what you call

46:33

distressing. You know, when you're

46:35

doing, when you're working with

46:37

the gross sensations in the

46:39

body, and you come in

46:41

contact with like a really

46:43

deep tension, and you breathe

46:45

into it, and you kind

46:47

of ride the wave of

46:49

that energy, and you feel

46:51

like shift and move, that's

46:53

a kria. You know, you

46:55

just let go of something

46:57

out of something out of

46:59

your nervous system, out of

47:01

your nervous system. And I

47:03

think in many ways, this

47:05

is just a continued refined

47:07

process, which is like embodied

47:09

wakefulness. Does that make sense?

47:11

Yeah, it does make, well,

47:13

it certainly makes intuitive sense.

47:15

I listen to you. My

47:17

body agrees. I'm slower, but

47:19

my body agrees. It makes

47:21

me curious about your... The

47:23

way that, I mean, I

47:25

don't even know exactly how

47:27

to ask this question, but

47:29

what somehow the way that

47:31

you would bring focusing into

47:33

meditation potentially or the way

47:35

that you would in your

47:37

focusing practice emphasize particular things

47:39

such that your meditation experience

47:41

comes into it. How do

47:43

they somehow go together for

47:45

you? If we think of

47:47

mindfulness. That's non-judging awareness. Yeah.

47:49

That's the definition that works

47:51

for me, you know, non-judging

47:53

awareness. And back to the

47:55

Ashan days, my guru's guru

47:57

said, before he went back

47:59

to India at the end

48:01

of his life to die,

48:03

he was asked, what's the

48:05

highest quality of a spiritual

48:07

seeker? I thought for sure

48:09

he was going to say,

48:11

whatever you're enjoying, stop it,

48:13

you know, work harder, you

48:15

know, knuckle down. But he

48:17

said the highest quality of

48:19

a seeker is self-obervation without

48:21

judgment. Wow, we could try

48:23

that on. It's really, really

48:25

quite potent. Yes. And so

48:27

I think when we're in

48:29

a, we're in a, in

48:31

like a meditative experience, you

48:33

know, we sort of have

48:35

the gross sensations, you know,

48:37

and then we have all

48:39

the subtle stuff going on.

48:41

But as I like to

48:43

say, you know, when you

48:45

meditate, you feel better. You

48:47

know, you feel your depression

48:49

better, you feel your sadness

48:51

better, you feel your anger

48:53

better. It's all there ripe

48:55

for awareness. And there's some

48:57

meditative techniques that are about

48:59

just focus on concentration, you

49:01

know, do not indulge, you

49:03

know. But then, you know,

49:05

and there's a lot to

49:07

be said for like the

49:09

calming practices, the concentration practices,

49:11

but what I like about

49:13

vapassa in particular is when

49:15

something arises that's persistent that's

49:17

persistent. something that you intuitively

49:19

feel is calling for investigation.

49:21

You move from your anchor,

49:24

you know, a breath or

49:26

sound or whatever it may

49:28

be to focus on the

49:30

phenomena itself. And that's where

49:32

the rain practice comes in.

49:34

Okay, let me get familiar

49:36

with this. You may be

49:38

familiar with the, you know,

49:40

the old story of the

49:42

yogini in her cave. And

49:44

she's just meditating and these

49:46

three demons come into her

49:48

cave and they're... whirling around

49:50

and making all this noise

49:52

and very calmly she gets

49:54

up she starts building a

49:56

little fire and she's so

49:58

non-re The demons, and they

50:00

get really annoyed, so they

50:02

crank it up, you know.

50:04

Horrible sounds and images, and

50:06

again, it's so non-reactive, she

50:08

puts a teacettle on the

50:10

fire, and this enrages them,

50:12

so they throw everything they

50:14

got at her. And she

50:16

sets out these teacups, and

50:18

finally they say, what gives?

50:20

Where were your three deepest

50:22

wounds, your three worst nightmares?

50:24

And here you are building

50:26

this fire, and putting out

50:28

these teacups, and... What's going

50:30

on? And she says, well,

50:32

you've been here before and

50:34

you'll be here again. So

50:36

in the meantime, what kind

50:38

of tea would you like?

50:40

That's the practice. It's how

50:42

do we have tea with

50:44

our demons when they arise?

50:46

Yeah. So that's where I

50:48

think this model of investigation,

50:50

you know, we can apply

50:52

it on so many levels,

50:54

you know, I always love

50:56

this model of. At

50:58

the core is what we could call

51:00

Prana. You know, it's undifferentiated energy. And

51:03

then that gets experience of pleasant, unpleasant,

51:05

or neutral. That kicks in thought forms.

51:07

If you think the same thought a

51:10

thousand times, it calcifies into a belief.

51:12

If you're not aware of the beliefs

51:14

in your life, they form your habits.

51:17

If you're not aware of your habits,

51:19

they form your character, and if you're

51:21

not aware of your character structure, that's

51:24

your destiny. And we can explore and

51:26

investigate on any one of those levels.

51:28

You know, we can look at our

51:31

habits, we can look at our beliefs,

51:33

but fundamentally it brings us back to

51:35

how does this live on the inside,

51:38

you know, can I, can I work

51:40

with it energetically, you know, and catch

51:42

it kind of before it proliferates. So

51:45

is this sort of a daily life

51:47

practice for you as you go through

51:49

your day? Do you have a way

51:52

of kind of bringing yourself back, checking

51:54

in with you or checking in with

51:56

you? For

51:59

me. particularly with the state

52:01

of the planet and the

52:03

state of politics. You know,

52:05

I had a pretty big

52:07

realization. I need to be

52:09

more plugged in the presence

52:11

than I ever have just

52:13

with all the challenges here.

52:16

So I've upped my daily

52:18

sitting pretty, pretty, dramatically. And

52:20

it, boy, does it make

52:22

a difference. You know, it

52:24

so makes a difference. And

52:26

again, within the context of

52:28

my practice, there. their practices

52:30

within practices, you know, the

52:33

practices of arriving, you know,

52:35

of concentration, you know, and

52:37

then the practices of actively

52:39

investigating something that might be

52:41

coming up and the practices

52:43

of just surrender and resting

52:45

and presence. But what I

52:48

was so what's so core

52:50

and foundational to me is

52:52

the experience I've had in

52:54

focusing, you know, which is

52:56

Can I work with the

52:58

gross challenges when they arise?

53:00

But also, and this is

53:02

where it gets really interesting

53:05

for me, is when I'm

53:07

beginning to open into expansive

53:09

states, can I stay present

53:11

to them? And that's where

53:13

I find the practice gets

53:15

so subtle and so refined.

53:17

Like there's a question I

53:19

ask myself sometimes, depending on

53:22

my state. toward the end,

53:24

I like to ask myself,

53:26

who am I in the

53:28

absence of desire? This, that

53:30

question kind of like, really

53:32

kind of sets the stage

53:34

for sensing just pure, pure

53:36

presence. What helps me sustain

53:39

that awareness is, is opening

53:41

to the felt sense. Mm-hmm.

53:43

Like the, like the felt

53:45

sense of expansion, you know,

53:47

the felt sense, you know,

53:49

the felt sense, you know,

53:51

the felt sense, you know,

53:53

the felt sense, you know,

53:56

the felt sense of, you

53:58

know, of spaciousness. It's all

54:00

integral but on a very

54:02

subtle level. at least in

54:04

my experience. Can I ask

54:06

through your practice? What understanding

54:08

have you come to about

54:11

what a human being is,

54:13

what existence is? Have you

54:15

found any way of understanding

54:17

that really rings true when

54:19

you're really open in the

54:21

way you've been describing that

54:23

that really rings true when

54:25

you're open in the way

54:28

you've been describing? Wow,

54:30

that is such a powerful

54:33

question. It's, it's challenging to

54:35

find, to find words for

54:37

that. Um, I do think,

54:39

again, this is a stumbling

54:41

quality of, uh, approach here

54:44

is, um, it's kind of

54:46

back to that inquiry of

54:48

who am I in the

54:50

absence of desire. Yeah, it's

54:52

like that. It just points

54:55

toward that quality of of

54:57

spacious, spacious presence. And what

54:59

I kind of notice for

55:01

myself is the more I

55:03

immerse myself in that, the

55:06

more it kind of touches

55:08

into everything. The less I

55:10

believe my thoughts. The more

55:12

I'm aware of these kind

55:14

of unconscious beliefs that kick

55:17

in without even being aware

55:19

of it. You know, the

55:21

more I'm aware of Vedina,

55:23

you know, of that feeling

55:25

tone, you know, the more

55:28

aware I am of the

55:30

unconscious pushing away or grasping.

55:32

It's sort of like that

55:34

whole idea, you know, in

55:36

the analogy of when you

55:39

think of indigenous tribes who

55:41

like use indigo dye, you

55:43

know, you've got this bipod

55:45

of... an intense blue and

55:47

you dip in the white

55:50

fabric and you pull it

55:52

out, you hang it up

55:54

to dry and it dry.

55:56

almost bone white but a

55:58

little bit of the blue

56:00

you know and then you

56:03

dip it again and depending

56:05

on how how much you

56:07

dip it it takes on

56:09

it takes on the hue

56:11

of the dye and I

56:14

think in many ways it's

56:16

the same thing you know

56:18

like wherever we point our

56:20

attention we tend to take

56:22

on the qualities of that

56:25

wherever we reside wherever our

56:27

attention resides. Which is why

56:29

I find it so powerful,

56:31

and I imagine you do

56:33

too, the more I immerse

56:36

myself into practice, but also

56:38

the more I'm in this

56:40

relational field of supporting people

56:42

in this inquiry, the more

56:44

it sort of permeates my,

56:47

you know, who I am,

56:49

at least right now. Do

56:51

you find that to be

56:53

true? Yeah, I do. But

56:55

I think for me, it's...

56:58

moments on my own, either

57:00

when I am purposely investigating,

57:02

with that question, you know,

57:04

once I'm in touch with

57:06

the more expansive body, that

57:09

question of, um, either, well,

57:11

every time I have to

57:13

find the right way of

57:15

phrasing it, but something like,

57:17

what is this? or what

57:20

am I? And then noticing

57:22

that even asking the question

57:24

somehow is too small for

57:26

the inquiry, the only other

57:28

time is usually when I'm

57:31

on my own, I actually

57:33

find it more difficult when

57:35

I'm with other people unless

57:37

we're in a focusing practice

57:39

or meditative kind of shared

57:42

space. But like in conversation

57:44

or something with other people,

57:46

I can find it difficult

57:48

to keep the openness in

57:50

myself. I'm curious,

57:53

when you're working with someone

57:55

and they, they experience a

57:57

felt shift and part of

57:59

that felt shift. is into

58:02

a sense of like non-identification,

58:04

a sense of expansiveness, you

58:06

know. How do you help

58:08

them sustain attention on that?

58:10

If I'm working with the

58:13

client I would simply say

58:15

let's not move on from

58:17

this, let's just stay with

58:19

this, let's welcome it, let

58:22

your body fully have this,

58:24

let it move and expand

58:26

as much as it wants

58:28

to, and let's just see

58:30

if it's okay simply to

58:33

allow that. I would say

58:35

that kind of thing over

58:37

and over again. That's awesome.

58:39

That's great. You know, whatever

58:42

I lead, a meditation, you

58:44

know, I will always point

58:46

toward resting and presence. So

58:48

many of us, we need

58:50

the, you know, we need

58:53

the practice of gathering and

58:55

arriving, you know, we need

58:57

the practice of conscious relaxation.

58:59

We need the practice of

59:01

being the witness of what's

59:04

changing. But all roads ultimately

59:06

point toward resting and presence.

59:08

And I think it's kind

59:10

of the same in a

59:13

focusing session. You know, is

59:15

that when there are those

59:17

moments where there just is

59:19

that sense of presence that

59:21

emerges where the small self

59:24

gets more permeable or drops

59:26

away, to get familiar with

59:28

that is just so juicy.

59:30

Yeah, I agree. It doesn't

59:33

happen all that often in

59:35

my experience, but when it

59:37

does, I certainly slow down

59:39

and really encourage welcoming it.

59:41

But how about when you're

59:44

in a conversation with other

59:46

people, not necessarily a difficult

59:48

conversation where, you know, you

59:50

violently disagree about something, but

59:52

just ordinary conversation, do you

59:55

have a way? Because of

59:57

all the practice that you've

59:59

done, do you have a

1:00:01

way of kind of gently

1:00:04

bringing yourself back to that

1:00:06

state of presence. So you

1:00:08

don't get too pulled into

1:00:10

a conversation, for example, or

1:00:12

a particular discussion. That's a

1:00:15

while. That's such a great

1:00:17

question. You know, I think

1:00:19

when we look at the

1:00:21

Buddhist lens, one of the

1:00:24

things the Buddha allegedly said,

1:00:26

I mean, he knows what

1:00:28

he said, nothing was written

1:00:30

down for a couple hundred

1:00:32

years, but he, you know,

1:00:35

one of the things pretty

1:00:37

emphatic about, he said nothing

1:00:39

is to be clung to

1:00:41

his eye or mine. Nothing

1:00:43

whatsoever is to be clung

1:00:46

to his eye or mine.

1:00:48

And when we have those

1:00:50

moments when I or mine

1:00:52

either becomes permeable or drops

1:00:55

away, those are the mystical

1:00:57

moments. And so I kind

1:00:59

of look for, again, in

1:01:01

very imperfect ways, ways that

1:01:03

I can allow myself to

1:01:06

become more permeable. Yes. And

1:01:08

one of the questions I

1:01:10

often will ask is, I

1:01:12

kind of... to tune myself

1:01:15

to the unmet need if

1:01:17

I'm in conversation to ask

1:01:19

myself, what is this person

1:01:21

needing right now? And that's

1:01:23

a really powerful way of

1:01:26

sort of like opening up

1:01:28

the field a little bit

1:01:30

more. Yeah. What I typically

1:01:32

do is if I'm at

1:01:34

a dinner table, for example,

1:01:37

is if I can feel

1:01:39

myself getting too narrow down

1:01:41

into something... is I expand

1:01:43

my awareness to the whole

1:01:46

table and almost kind of

1:01:48

invite myself to be the

1:01:50

whole situation, the whole setting,

1:01:52

rather than a separate self

1:01:54

within it. And even though

1:01:57

I can't completely accomplish that,

1:01:59

it does enough to broaden

1:02:01

my experience again. Let's see,

1:02:03

a group, that's what you're

1:02:06

doing. Yes. You are opening,

1:02:08

you're opening to the collective.

1:02:10

Yes. Opens up more possibility

1:02:12

and creativity and allowing you

1:02:14

to bring, to bring presence

1:02:17

to the group. Yes, I

1:02:19

do. I invite my body

1:02:21

to be the room rather

1:02:23

than myself. It's helpful for

1:02:25

me. Yeah. Yeah, that's. That's

1:02:30

juicy. I have one of

1:02:32

my favorite words. I'm just

1:02:34

aware of the time. I

1:02:37

want to ask. What are

1:02:39

you kind of most passionate

1:02:41

about at this point in

1:02:44

your life or what are

1:02:46

you developing or yeah anything

1:02:48

else that you would like

1:02:51

to add so people know

1:02:53

about it? Well, I have

1:02:55

a weekly talk that I

1:02:58

do and my My, um,

1:03:00

my, I like to think

1:03:02

of what I offer is,

1:03:05

is what pragmatic Darma, you

1:03:07

know, it's like, how do

1:03:09

we apply these ancient teachings

1:03:12

to the phone call you're

1:03:14

dreading next week, you know,

1:03:16

that's, that's a passion of

1:03:19

mine. But another project I'm

1:03:21

working on is something I've

1:03:23

been fascinated with, just through

1:03:26

my own life experience, and

1:03:28

the working title is transforming

1:03:30

your relationship to pain, kind

1:03:33

of a chronic pain companion.

1:03:35

And it's about 10 or

1:03:37

12 attentional strategies for working

1:03:40

with physical pain. And that's

1:03:42

just fascinating. Yeah. Just really.

1:03:44

There's so many options when

1:03:47

it comes to the experience

1:03:49

of pain that we don't,

1:03:51

that we forget because we

1:03:54

get so locked into fear

1:03:56

and self-preservation. So it's basically

1:03:58

offering. kind of like warm

1:04:01

guidance in your ear. to

1:04:03

explore some different ways of

1:04:05

working with it. And of

1:04:08

course, emotional pain is physical

1:04:10

pain. It can be applied,

1:04:12

you know, across the board.

1:04:15

But the primary thing is,

1:04:17

what do you, how do

1:04:19

you work at when, when

1:04:22

it feels like it's too

1:04:24

much, you know? Yeah, that

1:04:26

sounds incredibly useful. And that,

1:04:29

where could people find your

1:04:31

thinking about that? Well, I've

1:04:33

got a website and YouTube

1:04:36

channel, just my name. And

1:04:38

product, probably, I'm hoping it'll

1:04:40

be out in the next

1:04:43

couple months. Okay, perfect. Yeah.

1:04:45

Yeah, I'll put your website

1:04:47

so people can find you.

1:04:50

I have one more question.

1:04:52

Which? I'm happy to make

1:04:54

up an answer. Okay, terrific.

1:04:57

I'm thinking. especially when I

1:04:59

speak to people that live

1:05:01

in America. And I mean,

1:05:04

not only America, because the

1:05:06

whole world is suffering in

1:05:08

kind of new ways, it

1:05:11

feels like, although probably not

1:05:13

very new, but in America

1:05:15

where you've recently had this

1:05:18

election that again seemed to

1:05:20

really kind of divide the

1:05:22

nation. Do

1:05:25

you have ways or can

1:05:27

you think of ways or

1:05:29

are you interested in attempts

1:05:32

to bring some of the

1:05:34

things you've been talking about

1:05:36

whether it's things you've learned

1:05:39

from yoga or from Buddhism

1:05:41

or from focusing or just

1:05:43

the overall kind of attitude

1:05:45

that comes with these practices?

1:05:48

Are there ways of bringing

1:05:50

that to the nation? somehow

1:05:52

to the society, to groups,

1:05:55

to the community that you

1:05:57

think could be helpful at

1:05:59

this. point. That's such a such

1:06:02

a rich and deep question.

1:06:04

You know, I think it's

1:06:06

it's interesting to watch kind

1:06:08

of the reactivity in the

1:06:11

in this culture because right

1:06:13

now so many people are

1:06:15

burned out. You know, there's such

1:06:17

a sense of a hopelessness

1:06:20

and a sense of feeling

1:06:22

disempowered, you know, such a

1:06:24

sense of despair and a

1:06:26

lot of people are just

1:06:28

saying We just have to

1:06:31

wait and see, which is very

1:06:33

challenging, and I experienced

1:06:35

a lot of that myself, you

1:06:37

know. But I know for myself,

1:06:39

and part of mine is like,

1:06:41

again, back to those two questions

1:06:44

of what's happening, and how does

1:06:46

it just want me to be

1:06:48

with it? You know, for me,

1:06:50

it's around, I need to be

1:06:52

plugged in, you know. I want

1:06:55

my cup to be overflowing because

1:06:57

I know that when I respond

1:06:59

out of anger, I have a

1:07:02

certain degree of effectiveness in the

1:07:04

world. If I can respond

1:07:06

with compassion, it's a different

1:07:08

degree of effectiveness

1:07:10

in the world, you know. And I

1:07:13

think part of it, you know, kind

1:07:15

of back to the old, sickness old

1:07:17

age and death, is really looking at,

1:07:19

you know, we each need to look

1:07:22

closely at our suffering. and

1:07:24

how to respond to it. And

1:07:26

I really do feel like we

1:07:28

are in a big unknown

1:07:30

in our culture right now.

1:07:33

I don't know how things will

1:07:35

coalesce. As someone

1:07:37

said, just from a

1:07:39

political point of view,

1:07:41

the question is, with

1:07:44

the new administration, will

1:07:46

they provide customer

1:07:48

satisfaction? And if

1:07:51

they don't, then... Something's

1:07:53

gonna shift again. And so

1:07:55

I'm not I'm not being

1:07:58

really articulate here. But

1:08:00

I think there is, I really

1:08:02

do feel there is a sense

1:08:05

of how do we be with

1:08:07

it and no one really knows

1:08:10

right now. Yeah. Yeah, what I'm

1:08:12

getting from what you're

1:08:15

saying partially at

1:08:17

least is as a

1:08:19

citizen to take it as

1:08:21

your responsibility

1:08:23

to some extent to

1:08:26

be adding... more awareness

1:08:28

rather than simply more

1:08:30

content. Yeah, yeah. And as

1:08:32

someone pointed out, you

1:08:35

know, to be curious, you

1:08:37

know, to be curious, what

1:08:39

can I learn? You know, what can

1:08:41

I learn? You know, what is, what

1:08:43

is, what is, you know, the

1:08:46

world is run by unmet needs,

1:08:48

you know, what are the unmet

1:08:50

needs? And how do we, how

1:08:52

do we, how do we attune to

1:08:55

that? Deep in

1:08:57

interesting times, you know,

1:08:59

yeah, yeah, and yeah, it's

1:09:01

yeah, it it it makes

1:09:03

me subtly excited when you

1:09:06

say it that way We know

1:09:08

when when people ask me

1:09:10

how's your how's your

1:09:13

business? My classic response

1:09:15

is I said well,

1:09:17

I'm in the suffering

1:09:19

industry, you know, business

1:09:21

is booming, you know

1:09:24

And you know, we wake up out

1:09:26

of suffering if we really, if we

1:09:29

really look at it. And I

1:09:31

think part of, you know, I

1:09:33

just notice how, you know, you

1:09:36

know how, I particularly noticed among

1:09:38

folks who have like chronic issues

1:09:40

they don't address. And as they

1:09:42

get old and older, they become

1:09:45

almost cartoon characters. You know, in

1:09:47

many ways, you know, like the

1:09:49

suffering that's emerging is so chronic

1:09:52

we can't miss it now. And

1:09:54

it will get our

1:09:56

attention, you know, at

1:09:58

some point. And the

1:10:01

question is, can

1:10:03

we respond

1:10:05

to it? Yeah. Yeah.

1:10:07

That's a really interesting

1:10:11

reminder of

1:10:13

what to watch out

1:10:15

for in one's aging.

1:10:18

Yeah. Okay, thank

1:10:20

you very much. I've really enjoyed

1:10:22

talking with you and I'm really

1:10:24

glad. This has been great. Thank

1:10:26

you so much. I so appreciate

1:10:28

you and all that you do

1:10:30

and all that you offer and

1:10:32

what a great resource that you

1:10:34

are. Likewise. And yeah, I want

1:10:36

to make sure that people can get

1:10:39

in contact with you. Great.

1:10:41

Thank you very much. Thank you.

1:10:43

Thanks so much. Take care. Bye.