0:00

I've noticed when

0:02

I'm more removed from the team

0:04

there is a sense of something's

0:08

changed . I'm sure they

0:10

also are glad when I'm removed

0:12

from the team at times Because

0:15

you know I bring that kind of like let's do

0:17

this , let's do this , let's push , push , push

0:19

. And they need a break from that

0:21

. But an extended absence

0:24

of a founder and they need a break from that . But an extended

0:26

absence of a founder and founders is responsible for a lot

0:28

of stuff in terms of culture and I did check

0:30

out for a little while , for

0:33

about three or four months , and

0:36

we noticed a massive change in the business's

0:38

culture and it took us months to kind

0:40

of fix some of the problems that that created of

0:43

just the drift from

0:46

what you set up and bringing it

0:48

back .

0:49

I went to a really interesting talk once and talked about how founders

0:52

or leaders spend ages like preparing

0:54

speeches and writing emails and

0:56

actually that's worth about 2%

0:59

of what it is . It's kind of people just watch our behavior . It's

1:01

like what are we doing ? And that speaks to

1:03

like 95% . So

1:06

better spend that time just being

1:09

present in the business and being with

1:11

your people and sort of modeling

1:13

the behaviors that you want , rather than writing fancy

1:15

speeches and that that's been really

1:18

hard for me because

1:21

, as we've grown , there's some people

1:23

who've been with me till since more

1:25

or less day one .

1:27

So I have such a depth of relationship

1:29

with them , such like

1:31

a way of communicating with them that's quite

1:33

, quite direct and they're quite direct

1:36

with me . But

1:38

then we've got some people who've been here you

1:40

know a year , two years . You

1:42

know new starters . You

1:48

know a year , two years , um , you know new starters and it's it's weird

1:50

understanding the differences in those relationships .

1:51

It's weird how , as a founder , you would go from the state

1:53

where you you know all your team , your early

1:55

stage team , and they

1:58

know what you can do , they know what you bring to the party , they join

2:00

the business because of you , and

2:02

then it gets to a stage at some point when you're

2:05

kind of the guy in the corner that people don't really know

2:07

what you do or how

2:09

good you are , or they kind of figure

2:11

you kind of just came into being running

2:14

the company and you kind of don't really know what you're talking about yeah

2:17

, yeah , and and because of the nature of

2:19

our business , we have some people who come in quite

2:22

, you know , young , and it's their first

2:24

job and so they will come

2:26

in and he's the boss , but

2:28

they don't really know what he does , um

2:30

.

2:32

and then there's other people who know I'm running at a million

2:34

miles an hour with them and

2:36

they get all the things I do

2:38

, so it it is a strange

2:41

thing and adapting

2:43

to that in terms of um

2:46

, I had a team

2:49

quite early because we grew quite

2:51

quickly . Those people

2:53

knew where I , where my weak spots

2:55

were . They know how I get a short

2:57

fuse if I'm stressed and stuff like that

2:59

, so they kind of get me

3:02

in that way . But obviously

3:04

a whole new wave of people . They're

3:06

much further removed from me and

3:09

they probably don't see all

3:12

of the challenges behind the scenes . It's so

3:14

strange how , how

3:16

a business evolves and you know you're learning

3:18

people's names and stuff like that

3:22

, and how do

3:24

you keep the same kind

3:27

of ethos or vibe , whilst

3:30

obviously the organization is basically

3:32

growing and every person you add makes

3:35

a little change ?

3:40

Leaders have this idea in a lot of cases that they have to know

3:42

everything right and they have to always be definitive . That they have to know everything right

3:45

and they have to always be definitive and

3:47

they have to show strength and show that

3:49

they know the answer and they are convicted

3:52

and confident , and all of those things are important

3:54

. Right , you have to display

3:56

that behavior as a leader , certainly

3:59

at times , and maybe in most

4:01

cases , but there are times when

4:03

you've got to take the armor

4:05

down and take the shield down and really disarm

4:07

yourself , because , it's true

4:10

, it's being authentic to yourself . We

4:12

do this exercise called

4:15

the stick figure exercise

4:17

. We've done this at the leadership team

4:20

level and even the staff level , where

4:22

, in essence , everybody introduces

4:24

themselves who

4:26

are you , where are you from , where

4:29

have you been ? What disappoints

4:31

you about you ? Right

4:34

? What are your three biggest accomplishments

4:37

in your life and your three biggest regrets

4:39

in your life ? And , ultimately , what we're

4:42

doing ? What's happening is , is we're allowing people

4:44

to tell us who they are and

4:46

where they've come from and what sort of baggage

4:48

or insecurities they have Could

4:51

be . Hey , I never graduated college , or I never

4:53

got my high school degree right

4:55

and that's a chip on my shoulder that I have

4:57

and that's why I show up in

5:00

certain ways or get defensive in certain

5:02

ways , because I'm

5:04

insecure about that right . So

5:07

I think doing exercises like

5:09

that and seeing the results that we get from our team

5:11

and really pushing that , uh , throughout the organization

5:14

, it shows and

5:17

how does that sort of show up practically like this

5:19

idea of like you're , you're , you understand , you're better

5:21

.

5:22

You're showing up differently , but how does that

5:24

practically translate into ? Like better

5:26

performance , closer teams , better

5:29

culture ?

5:30

I think it creates space

5:33

for people to have more effective

5:35

conversations and it creates

5:38

a level of trust . Okay

5:40

, because if I know you and

5:42

I know your baggage

5:45

or what your insecurities are , it's

5:48

much easier for me to talk to you as

5:50

opposed to me making up stories about

5:52

who you are and why you might

5:54

be behaving the way that you are . It's

5:56

like hold up . I know you're triggered , right

5:59

, and you told me you were going to be triggered and you told me

6:01

this is what happens when you get triggered and you told me why

6:03

you get triggered . Now I can work

6:05

with that . I get that , as

6:07

opposed to me saying why is this guy talking to me

6:10

like that ? What happened ? What is it me

6:12

, right ? Does this guy resent me

6:14

? What is it me , me , me ? No , it's

6:16

not me , it's not me

6:18

at all , it's . It's it's

6:20

them and where they're at and

6:22

what their head , what the headspace that they're in , and

6:24

they're triggered and that's okay . Everybody gets triggered , everybody

6:27

has their moments , everybody has their issues and

6:29

their insecurities and so if I know

6:31

you and I know that about you , it

6:34

changes the dynamic of the conversation because I

6:36

can trust you Right , and vice versa

6:39

, I can receive this

6:41

information and not use it against you

6:43

, right or ?

6:44

vice versa .

6:45

So does

6:48

that make ?

6:48

sense . Do you update this exercise as well in terms

6:50

of could I imagine people work on this

6:52

stuff . They

6:55

change over a period of time . Is this sort

6:57

of a ? Do you update this periodically

6:59

? This story .

7:02

Sometimes I mean so we'll , we'll

7:04

do the exercise . Sometimes we add new people to the

7:06

team or we add somebody new to the leadership team

7:08

. We'll do the exercise because we want to get everybody

7:10

kind of reacclimated in and

7:12

we want to have other others that

7:14

haven't done the exercise before um do

7:18

it because we want to they to be , we want

7:20

them to be introduced . Now , some people

7:22

have done this multiple times per year

7:24

for seven years in a row and

7:27

sometimes the story is the same and sometimes it changes

7:29

, which is fine , right . People

7:31

think differently over time

7:34

, or they recall something differently

7:36

, or they think about themselves differently , and

7:38

so it's a kind of finite

7:40

story . Right , it's

7:42

a very fluid and dynamic story that can change

7:45

over time .

7:47

Do you encourage people to back of that sort of

7:49

explore things with coaches or

7:51

to identify behaviors

7:53

to work on alongside , or is it really just

7:56

about it's about understanding more

7:58

than development ?

8:01

I would always encourage our team to seek

8:04

coaching or get coaching or provide coaching

8:07

if we can . The idea

8:09

is around and why we do it is

8:11

the exercise and

8:13

the result of the exercise and

8:17

it aligns with our values , or one

8:19

of our key values honest and effective

8:21

communication . What does that mean ? How do you get

8:23

to that ? Well , you get to that by building

8:26

trust with each other and creating space

8:29

for trust and conversation

8:31

, and that's rooted in vulnerability

8:33

, and

8:35

so we use that in line with our values , and

8:37

then we've got a conversation model that we've used

8:41

also . That ties into that

8:43

. So it's really the focal

8:45

point is behavior and

8:47

culture and alignment with one

8:50

of our key values .

8:52

Because you were saying you're now like

8:54

a remote first business . Yeah

8:56

, building that sort of culture

8:58

of trust remotely , is

9:01

it harder , doing it remotely

9:03

and makes these sort of exercise even more important

9:05

?

9:06

You know I'm a proponent

9:08

of remote work for certain business

9:10

types Certainly my business type , absolutely

9:13

. I think it's a competitive advantage

9:16

to be remote . But you're right

9:18

, we have to create space

9:20

for people to connect with each

9:22

other and communicate with each other , because they're

9:24

not walking around the office and passing

9:27

by this person and checking in with them or

9:29

seeing them in the lunchroom or having a water cooler conversation

9:31

. We have to create space

9:33

for our teams to interact

9:36

with each other . So , yeah , I think that's part

9:38

of the equation . Now , if I was in

9:40

an office , I would still do the exact same

9:43

thing . So to me , it's not

9:45

about having a remote

9:47

work environment or an in-office work

9:49

environment . That is irrelevant to me

9:51

. Now we just

9:53

need to be more intentional with how we create

9:55

the space for those connections in a remote environment

9:58

, because , again , you don't get it passively

10:00

or you get it less so passively . But

10:02

again , if we were in an office , I would still

10:04

do the exact same thing . It's

10:06

not easy and I think it probably makes some

10:08

people uncomfortable . But

10:11

if somebody a leader

10:13

in the organization goes

10:15

first , right , if I go first

10:17

and I model that behavior and I put it out

10:19

on the table , then it's okay

10:22

, right , if there are other leaders in the organization that do it first

10:24

, their boss goes first , it

10:27

makes it okay , and

10:29

maybe they're not fully sharing and I understand

10:31

that . And it takes time to build that level of

10:33

trust . And you know , some people have

10:35

challenging past or backgrounds or

10:38

some very much , you know high

10:40

insecurities , which that's

10:42

life . Right , that's life . It

10:49

can be messy at times .

10:57

But if we model the behavior as leaders , then it makes it okay . It's

10:59

about the motive behind leadership . So you've got two main types of

11:01

leaders reward-centered

11:03

leaders and responsibility-centered

11:05

leaders . So reward-centered leaders

11:08

are people that are doing it for their

11:10

ego , for the fame , because they

11:12

want to climb to the top and obviously

11:14

they want everyone else holding them up . You

11:17

can imagine you know someone there

11:19

with everyone else holding them up and they're getting

11:21

all the credit . These are the kind

11:23

of fake leaders really that burn out

11:26

. And then you've got responsibility centered

11:28

leaders and again , if you go back to

11:30

the image , they're holding everyone else up

11:32

because they're sacrificing for

11:34

their people , because leadership isn't about

11:37

ruling with an iron fist , it's

11:39

about the person who's willing to sacrifice

11:41

most of their people . And

11:43

really , if you're a leader

11:45

and you're listening to this or you're an organization

11:48

where there is a leader , you should

11:50

be asking yourself this question Do

11:52

you have the right motive behind leadership

11:54

? Because leadership is not sexy

11:56

. Leadership is about managing other

11:58

human beings and you have to be there

12:01

for them every single day . It's constant

12:03

, it's absolutely relentless

12:05

and if you're not in it for the right reasons

12:08

, you will burn out . And

12:14

I think the other thing is is if you're not a leader and you understand that early , and

12:16

then you accept that and it's your own company . But then you

12:18

have a great leader within your company who

12:21

is responsibility centered

12:23

, and then you give them and empower

12:25

them to go and lead your team because they're in

12:27

it for the right reasons . So I think

12:29

the motive by patrick lencioni

12:31

is a fantastic book , but , moreover

12:34

, it's a chance and opportunity

12:36

for everyone who's working in the

12:38

team to ask themselves are

12:41

you a reward-centered leader or

12:43

responsibility-centered leader ? What is

12:45

your motive ? And also to

12:47

ask the leaders in your team . Then

12:49

together , I think this creates a much

12:52

better organization .

12:54

Is the view that you can change

12:56

your style or is it something that's intrinsic

12:58

? You are . You are one or the other it's

13:00

a good question , I think .

13:03

I think you just have to be honest . It's

13:05

do you want to change ? I think knowing

13:08

what you actually have to do

13:10

to be a leader . I think that's the first

13:12

part , because most people don't understand

13:14

that there's no , there's no one telling

13:16

people at school this stuff , so where

13:19

else are they going to learn it ? Most

13:21

people are already running big organizations

13:23

before they find this stuff out and

13:26

then they're burning out , but really

13:28

it's because of the motive behind it . So

13:30

you first need to understand

13:33

what it takes to be a true leader and

13:35

then ask yourself the question if you

13:37

really actually do want to change

13:39

. I think it's possible , but you've got

13:41

to understand every single

13:43

day . If you're a leader depending on , obviously

13:46

, how big the company is all you're going

13:48

to be doing is managing people . That's

13:50

your job . You're not doing anything else . You're

13:53

just managing people all the time , and

13:55

people have problems and you've got

13:57

to be at the top in

14:00

terms of it's a lonely place and

14:02

no one's going to be caring for you . You've got

14:04

to take all that burden of responsibility . So

14:07

you've got to ask yourself that question do

14:09

you want to change , do you want to become that person ? Because

14:11

it's not easy and if

14:13

you don't just be honest with yourself , off .