2:00

the United States top waste

2:02

and recycling operator, managing about

2:04

30 percent of all US

2:06

landfill volume and going through

2:08

a massive transformation to achieve

2:10

its sustainability objectives. Over

2:12

the course of Jim's 23-year career

2:15

at WM, he's held a variety

2:17

of key positions including president, CFO,

2:20

senior vice president for the company's

2:22

Eastern Group, and vice president of

2:24

price management. Prior to

2:26

WM, Jim held finance and

2:29

revenue management positions at Westex,

2:31

Transworld Airlines, and America West

2:33

Airlines. Jim, welcome

2:35

to Redefiners. Thank you. Great

2:37

to be here. Let's dive

2:39

right in. You started your

2:41

career as a finance

2:44

and accounting person. I did.

2:46

And for all our finance and CFO

2:48

listeners looking to make the transition to

2:50

the CEO position, talk to us a

2:52

bit about the path to that for

2:54

you. How did it take place

2:56

and what did you find on

2:58

arrival that CEO post that

3:00

you needed to add? One of

3:03

the things that I thought was maybe important, most

3:05

important in my career was not so much that

3:07

I was on the finance and accounting side because

3:09

I do think that's a great entry

3:11

point into any company.

3:13

Having an understanding of the

3:16

income statement, the balance sheet, those things is

3:18

very important. But I got some

3:20

very good advice from a guy who

3:22

was CEO, two CEOs ago here at WM,

3:24

his name is Maury Myers. And

3:27

Maury said, look, if you want to move within

3:29

the company, you should also

3:31

understand the core function of that company.

3:34

And so if you're working for a

3:37

procter and gamble, you want to be on the marketing side at

3:39

some point. And if you're working for a Goldman Sachs, you want

3:41

to be on the finance side. And he

3:44

said waste management is truly at its core

3:46

an operating company. And so

3:48

Emma, you mentioned that I'd been on the

3:50

back of trucks. I haven't done it in the last couple

3:52

of years, but I did do that as a practice when

3:54

I was out in our field operations for

3:57

about seven years. And going out into

3:59

the field operations, was on

4:01

the advice of Maury Myers because

4:04

waste management is truly an operating

4:06

company. The money

4:08

that we make doesn't happen without

4:11

any of our 48,000, but

4:13

in particular our operating team out

4:16

in the field. So while having a finance

4:18

background is important, I use it every day,

4:20

I use my accounting degree every day in

4:23

this current job, also understanding

4:25

the core of the business and

4:28

what our field is doing and how

4:30

valuable what they're doing is to not

4:33

only our financial results, but also to

4:35

our sustainability efforts is critical. And

4:37

we're going to pick up a set

4:39

of those themes in a moment. But first, that

4:42

question of definition, you talk about trash trucks on

4:44

this side of the Atlantic, they're known as

4:46

bin lorries, but what did you learn? Tell us

4:48

about that two a.m. start

4:51

and what it told you both about the operating business but the

4:53

people in it. That's a new term for me,

4:55

I have to tell you Simon, I've never heard that term, so

4:58

we definitely don't use that over here. But I

5:01

think understanding what

5:03

they go through every day, maybe

5:05

the one story I'll tell you is about riding on the back of

5:07

a truck in outside of Pittsburgh at two

5:09

o'clock in the morning when it was 10 degrees below zero.

5:12

They helped me understand, for example, why

5:14

productivity might suffer in the

5:17

middle of January, because you've got three feet

5:19

of snow and when you're picking up a

5:21

street that has bins on

5:23

the street, they might put that bin

5:25

on top of the mountain of snow, they might put

5:28

it behind it. And

5:30

so I pretty quickly understood, gosh, now I

5:32

understand why productivity is a bit lower in

5:34

January than it is in July. So

5:36

you learn those kinds of things, but

5:38

maybe most importantly, gave me

5:40

an opportunity to meet people and that's just something I

5:43

enjoy doing. I really like meeting people, I go out

5:45

to our districts all the time. Just going out and

5:47

meeting some of our 48 to 50,000 people is

5:51

probably where I see the most benefit in going out

5:53

to the field operations. And Jim, just

5:55

to build on that, you lead a very

5:58

large workforce. certainly

14:00

is a higher and better use for it outside of

14:02

a landfill. And it's more economically

14:06

beneficial to shareholders if it goes to

14:09

recycle centers. So that one

14:11

truly is kind of a win-win for the environment

14:13

and for the economic side.

14:16

And we've really made sure that we strike that

14:18

balance. On that, how do you

14:20

link WMs on doubted

14:22

success, both for

14:24

profit and sustainability, to the

14:26

wider picture? How is the

14:29

world doing on the

14:31

silent constituency? And where do you

14:34

locate WM in that bigger effort?

14:37

It's hard to say how the world's doing. Because

14:41

some countries are doing better than others. Europe

14:44

seems to do better on recycling than we do in the US.

14:47

But I think the US has done a

14:50

decent job overall. It's

14:52

a pretty clean country. I

14:54

think as a society, we do fairly

14:56

well. I mean, if I remember the old

15:00

ads back in the, I don't know

15:02

whether they played overseas, but in the

15:04

1970s, there was a

15:06

Native American chief and he was standing there and he

15:08

had a tear running down his face. And

15:10

they were showing pictures of, I think it was

15:12

Lake Erie or something with

15:15

just the horrible pollution in the lake.

15:18

And having spent five years

15:21

in Pittsburgh, pretty close to Lake Erie, I can tell

15:23

you, Lake Erie is pretty clean now compared to the

15:25

way it was. And

15:28

cars are so much cleaner burning

15:30

and landfills used to

15:32

be just garbage dumps, for example, and

15:34

now we line those landfills, nothing escapes

15:36

them. So I would tell

15:38

you, we're doing pretty darn well as a society,

15:41

but we can always aspire to do better.

15:44

And that's, I think, whether it's taking care

15:46

of the environment, whether it's running a company

15:48

and taking care of shareholders, whether

15:50

it's raising your kids. I mean, I

15:53

think it's natural to aspire to do better in

15:55

everything we do. So

15:57

I would tell you that we can aspire to do better. taking

16:00

care of the earth. We'll

16:02

be right back with Jim Fish, but first

16:05

we'll hear from Justice O'Brien, a managing director

16:07

in our Stanford office. Justice will

16:09

outline what it takes to make the

16:11

transition from the CFO role to the

16:13

top seat. The key to effective CEO

16:16

succession planning is optionality. But

16:18

when boards are looking to identify a

16:20

potential candidate, there's one role that's often

16:22

overlooked, the CFO. Our

16:25

research has found that while CFOs possess

16:27

many of the same necessary competencies to

16:29

succeed as the CEO, such as executing

16:31

for results and pragmatic thinking, only about

16:34

20% of CEOs in the S&P 500

16:38

previously held the CFO role. So

16:41

why are there so few CFO to

16:43

CEO transitions? In our latest

16:46

article, we interviewed a group of

16:48

successful CEOs who had previously held

16:50

the CFO role. And during these

16:52

interviews, they shared the following. The

16:54

performance gaps they needed to overcome

16:56

to become CEO, the biggest

16:58

surprises and challenges they faced during

17:00

that transition, and the advice

17:02

they had for CFOs who were eyeing the

17:05

corner office. To learn more

17:07

about what it takes to transition

17:09

from CFO to CEO, you can

17:11

find the full paper via our

17:13

show notes or by visiting russelreynolds.com.

17:17

Now back to our conversation with Jim. And

17:22

just a final point on sustainability. One

17:24

of the things that's really striking reading the

17:26

WM description of sustainability is it doesn't stop

17:29

at the environment that point you make about

17:31

communities. And the social component

17:33

of this is there, that commitment

17:35

to spending equivalent of 2% of

17:37

your net income on

17:40

social impact, as you call it. Where

17:42

did that come from? Where did the

17:44

motivation to do that come from? Big

17:47

companies are such kind of

17:49

a powerful force in the world for

17:52

doing good things, if

17:54

they choose to be. And so

17:56

we choose to be, we choose to be a powerful

17:58

force. Sustainability, of course,

18:00

is maybe the place where we flex our

18:03

muscles the most in that respect. But

18:06

we also donate quite a bit to charities.

18:08

We donate to a lot of kind of

18:10

underserved communities in

18:13

multiple ways. And by the

18:15

way, that also benefits shareholders too.

18:17

It's not just benefiting the

18:19

recipient of those funds. A

18:22

lot of times it's dollars, but

18:24

shareholders end up benefiting from that because in

18:28

those examples, the community might

18:30

end up signing a contract with us. And so

18:32

it ends up benefiting us in terms of our

18:34

business or other companies that

18:36

we do business with like doing

18:38

business with companies that are, you

18:42

know, doing good things for their

18:44

communities. So it does end

18:47

up ultimately benefiting shareholders. And so I believe

18:49

they're all interrelated. And Jim,

18:51

just to build a bit

18:53

on this point around communities and

18:56

broaden the point around social issues, we

18:58

talk a lot on this podcast around

19:00

leadership and when CEO should and

19:02

shouldn't weigh in on social topics. And there's

19:04

been so many big events in recent times.

19:06

And sometimes the US has led the rest

19:09

of the world, frankly. What's your view on

19:11

when it is appropriate for you as a

19:13

CEO to give WM a voice on a

19:15

topic and when actually it's better just to

19:17

step back? I talked

19:20

to a friend of mine, this was during

19:22

the, you know, there were three

19:24

or four pretty tumultuous years there around COVID. And

19:26

so I talked to a friend of mine from

19:28

school and who's

19:30

a CEO of a much bigger company than

19:32

WM. And he said, Jim,

19:36

I have a personal view of those issues but I'm

19:38

not the fourth branch of government. And

19:40

I thought that was an interesting way of putting it. I'm

19:43

not the fourth branch of governments. Milton

19:45

Friedman said, look, companies

19:48

have a, you know, he was

19:50

probably more singularly focused than most

19:52

are today, but his view was

19:55

companies have a responsibility to

19:57

their shareholders. And

24:00

statement, but patience is a virtue. And I think

24:03

that today's generation, you know, I've heard people say,

24:05

well, Gen Z doesn't work as hard. I don't

24:07

agree with that at all. I think Gen Z

24:10

works just as hard as my generation or

24:12

as your generation. I do

24:14

think they're more impatient. I think Gen Z

24:16

can, and part of it is kind of

24:19

this digital world we live in. Everything's immediate.

24:21

My advice typically is around that. It's around,

24:23

look, be patient with your careers. You

24:27

know, good things will happen. You're

24:29

in a great position. You

24:33

know, there's so many people in this kind

24:35

of retirement age, and you're in a position

24:37

to really be able to

24:39

move fairly quickly, probably move through your career

24:41

more quickly than I did, but

24:44

don't expect to be senior vice

24:46

president on, you know, day four

24:49

if you're coming into your new job. Give

24:52

it time. Work hard at

24:54

the tasks that you're given, and I think

24:56

you will, you know,

24:58

the fruits of your labor will be born

25:00

over a shorter period of time than you

25:02

might think, but don't expect it overnight. Well,

25:05

we end each podcast with some rapid-fire questions

25:07

to get to know you even better, Jim.

25:10

So we will ask a series

25:12

of questions, and you respond as quickly as possible.

25:14

I'm nervous now. So

25:17

which leader, living or dead, do you admire

25:19

most? It

25:21

might be. Well, I would say Abraham Lincoln. What

25:24

are the top three traits that every

25:26

CEO should have? I think

25:29

empathy is important. I

25:32

think kind of ability to think more

25:34

long-term. We talked about the fact that

25:36

that's not something that's natural. And

25:39

then I think, look, you have to have, you know, you

25:41

can't be dumb as a rock. I'm not the world's smartest

25:43

guy, but I think you have to have a little bit

25:45

of intellect to be a good leader.

25:47

So I would say those three.

25:50

What is your favorite way to decompress, Jim, after

25:52

a long day at work? Well, okay.

25:54

So after a long day at work, if you're just

25:56

talking about going home for

25:59

the day, then I'd I do enjoy

26:01

reading. I enjoy watching sports on television.

26:04

If you're talking about a kind of vacation, I go

26:06

back to going to the mountains. I enjoy going to the

26:08

mountains. I enjoy, you know, doing

26:10

a little fishing or hiking or whatever. So it depends on

26:13

whether you're talking about just at the end of the day

26:15

or actually on vacation. What's the best

26:17

piece of advice you've received that's stuck with

26:19

you? So my father-in-law,

26:23

he passed away about 15 years ago,

26:25

and union guy, pipe

26:27

fitter from St. Louis, Missouri. And

26:29

so when I was moving out to our

26:31

field operations, and I mentioned I spent

26:34

seven years out in our field operations, and he

26:36

said, when you go out there, don't

26:39

just sit at your desk.

26:41

He said, go out and

26:43

really spend time with the

26:46

operations folks. But he said,

26:48

by the way, if you do it just once,

26:50

then you're actually better off to never do it.

26:53

Because if you only go out there once, then

26:55

they're going to say, yeah, Jim came out here

26:57

one time. We saw him, you know, two years

27:00

ago, but we haven't seen him since. That's

27:04

actually worse than never going out at all. So

27:06

he said, if you're going to do it, then

27:08

go out and do it on a regular

27:11

basis. And if you do that, A, you'll

27:13

learn something, and B, they'll really appreciate the

27:16

fact that you're coming out and kind of

27:18

seeing what they do every day. So that was probably

27:20

the best piece of advice I think I've been given

27:22

in my career. Would you

27:25

rather have regrets about actions or

27:27

inactions? I would

27:29

definitely rather have regrets about action. Then I

27:31

would much rather say, you

27:34

know, that I misstep

27:36

there, then look back and say, gosh,

27:38

I wish I had done this and

27:40

I didn't do it. I would much

27:42

rather be in the other court. What

27:45

is one item on your bucket list? So

27:49

I've been fortunate to kind of be able to take off

27:51

a few of those bucket list items. I'm a golfer, so

27:53

I've gotten to play Augusta, which was cool. You

27:57

know, one thing, and I'm not sure my wife agrees with

27:59

me on this, but I... I think it'd be cool to,

28:01

I don't want to climb Mount Everest. I

28:03

don't want to go to the top, but I do think it'd

28:05

be very cool to go to base camp. And

28:08

finally, Jim, what's the most unusual item

28:10

that you've collected in the garbage? I

28:13

know that one of our team on time, I can

28:15

speak for them, they picked

28:17

up a house one time and there was a,

28:20

the lady, her husband was

28:22

a World War II vet and somehow

28:24

he had brought back a hand grenade

28:27

from World War II and had it in the house. And

28:29

it was a live hand grenade. So

28:31

they emptied the trash bin into the

28:33

back of the truck. And fortunately, this

28:36

thing kind of rolled around on the bottom

28:38

and it wasn't buried in the trash somehow

28:41

because had they run it through the compactor,

28:43

it might've have actually exploded, but they

28:46

emptied it and they thought for a second, gosh, is

28:48

this thing, is this like a kid's

28:50

toy or is that a real hand grenade? And

28:53

they called out a bomb squad and it was

28:55

definitely a real World War II vintage hand grenade.

28:57

Now that, I wasn't on that truck that day,

29:00

but I can't say there was anything

29:02

super interesting that I've collected, but we

29:05

have collected a few interesting things. Jim, it's been

29:07

a real pleasure talking to you and

29:10

a privilege. You've set out how you

29:12

get to the core of a business. Even

29:14

if that involves going out in minus

29:17

10 degrees Fahrenheit, how

29:19

people matter to the way in which

29:21

you think about leadership. Talked

29:23

about that hierarchy of people, customers,

29:26

shareholders, the environment and communities. And

29:28

that's run as a seam through

29:30

all of the answers you gave

29:32

both to how you're transforming

29:35

WM, but also how you

29:37

think about your role as a leader of

29:39

the business and as a leader

29:41

in the wider societies that WM serves.

29:44

You're not the fourth branch of government.

29:46

The business of business is indeed business,

29:48

but when you think about your

29:51

personal judgments on these matters,

29:53

it's clear that the values that animate you

29:55

are important and

29:58

lead you to... to

30:00

make decisions about what it is you say and do not.

30:03

And we'll all hope that Gen Z and

30:05

the generations that follow them have some of

30:07

the patience that you've advised them on. Thank

30:09

you. Thank you, Jim. Thank

30:11

you very much for giving

30:14

me the opportunity to speak to you and

30:16

really enjoyed it. And maybe we'll grab lunch

30:18

next time I'm in London. We'll show you

30:21

a bin, Laurie. Perfect, perfect. All right. Jim,

30:24

thanks for joining us in Redefiners.

30:26

You bet. Take care. Thanks for

30:28

joining us on this episode of

30:30

Redefiners. For more compelling insights from

30:32

leaders across industries and around the

30:34

world, listen to Redefiners wherever you

30:36

get your podcasts. To learn more

30:39

or get in contact with us,

30:41

follow Redefiners podcast on Instagram, find

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30:45

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