0:00

Dinner Time. It's more than just

0:02

a meal. It's when work comes

0:05

to a halt, where macaroni masterpieces

0:07

are made and little moments turn

0:09

into lasting memories. With the Blue

0:11

Cash Preferred card, you can get

0:13

6% cash back at U.S. supermarkets.

0:15

So you can bring home

0:18

the flavors that bring everyone.

0:20

We did say everyone. Make

0:23

the special moments even more

0:25

rewarding. Learn more at American

0:28

express.com/explore dash BCP. Hi

0:30

folks, welcome along to Sound Tracking.

0:32

My name is Edith Bowman and

0:34

this is my Pride and Joy,

0:36

my weekly podcast where I dive

0:38

into a conversation about the

0:40

beautiful relationship between music

0:42

and the moving image. And we

0:45

have episodes coming thick and fast.

0:47

Normally we're releasing episodes every

0:49

Monday, but we've had so much stuff

0:51

on the go that we have been

0:53

kind of dropping episodes twice a

0:55

week, which is meant. that we are,

0:57

we've got to our 500 episode, even quicker

1:00

than we thought we would, in fact it's

1:02

coming on Monday. Can't wait to share that

1:04

with you. It's a normal episode just with

1:06

a few little kind of bells and whistles,

1:09

but our latest guest, I'm so excited about

1:11

this episode you might be able to

1:13

tell why I'm talking so fast because our

1:15

latest guests on sound tracking our

1:17

director Barry Levinson and producer

1:19

Erwin Winkler who join us separately

1:22

to discuss their collaboration on the

1:24

Altoo nights. Starting Robert De in two

1:26

roles. The Alto Nights tells the story

1:28

of two young friends who rise through

1:30

the ranks of the New York Mafia

1:33

only to have a reckoning in later

1:35

life as their paths diverge. I was

1:37

quite obsessed with this whole period in time

1:39

when I was an early teen and it

1:42

was definitely through watching films

1:44

and being slightly obsessed with

1:46

Marla Monot and Frank Sinatra.

1:48

I think I watched gentlemen prefer

1:51

blondes hundreds of times. and

1:53

it took me down a path of reading

1:55

loads of books about different mafia

1:57

bosses, one in particular.

2:00

or one kind of era in particular

2:02

in Boston, resulted in when we

2:04

were returning from a family holiday,

2:06

which involved a stopover in Boston

2:08

for about six hours, I forced

2:10

my parents to take me into

2:12

Boston to Queen Street Market, which

2:14

was a kind of prominent location

2:16

that featured in the book that

2:18

I'd been reading about the Boston

2:20

Mafia, which I think I told

2:22

our guess, actually. But the Alto

2:24

Nights is completely submerged in that

2:26

world. And what's unique about it

2:28

is De Niro taking on these

2:30

two roles. Something that you'll hear

2:32

both Barry and Erwin talk about

2:34

how that happened, so I don't

2:36

really want to go into that.

2:39

But I really enjoyed this film.

2:41

I really loved the kind of

2:43

conversation between these two characters, the

2:45

different perspectives, the different paths that

2:47

they took. And just the idea

2:49

of De Niro playing opposite De

2:51

Niro is quite a kind of

2:53

formidable. opportunity to see on a

2:55

big screen which is where you

2:57

should see this. It's really fun.

2:59

The music really kind of gives

3:01

it a pace, the use of

3:03

old footage and creating footage to

3:05

look like old footage. It's quite,

3:07

it's got a great tone to

3:09

it as well so I thoroughly

3:11

enjoyed it and would highly recommend

3:13

it be a really great thing

3:15

to go and see at the

3:17

cinema this weekend. The alternates is

3:19

scored by David Fleming who we've

3:21

had on the show previously. to

3:23

talk about his work with Gustavo

3:26

Santiago Santiago on The Last of

3:28

Us. So before we hear from

3:30

Barry and then Irwin, this is

3:32

the title track from David's score

3:34

for the film. Hello

4:55

Barry, how you doing? I'm really

4:57

great thanks, how are you? Good.

4:59

Congratulations on the alternate's eye, you've

5:01

just had a great time with

5:03

your film, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

5:05

And this is a character I

5:08

guess, you've told a version of

5:10

his stories back with Bugsy, you

5:12

know, in terms of that man,

5:14

but what was the attraction to

5:16

to Nick's script and and this

5:18

particular opportunity to sort of dive

5:21

back into that era I guess

5:23

in this this world? I mean,

5:25

you know, the Buzzy story, which

5:27

is earlier, and very different, you

5:29

know, Bugsy was into the glamour,

5:31

the glamour of it all and

5:34

the concept of Vegas as a

5:36

dream, mafia connected, but very, very

5:38

different character, certainly everything about it

5:40

from the filming as well. I

5:42

think we I think the even

5:44

the ad said glamour was the

5:47

disguise. You know that that's the

5:49

way he focused. This differs very

5:51

much in that you see the

5:53

rise of two young boys. best

5:55

friends hanging around a mafia place

5:57

and same sensibility and as they

6:00

grew older they became very different

6:02

from one another one gas volatile

6:04

and violent the other room was

6:06

much more introspective and thoughtful and

6:08

almost a corporate sensibility and then

6:10

you see that clash and then

6:12

what happened because of that clash

6:15

so it's a very different story

6:17

I should say a different story

6:19

I should say a different story

6:21

I should say a different story

6:23

I should mafia connected characters. What

6:25

was your first kind of thought

6:28

and what was the excitement that

6:30

you had about that opportunity? What

6:32

was your first kind of thought

6:34

and what was the excitement that

6:36

you had about that opportunity? Well,

6:38

originally, when we worked on the

6:41

script, Nick pledging, when we began

6:43

to really define Frank and Vido,

6:45

and we gave the script to

6:47

Erwin Wigler, you know who had

6:49

been involved in it for years

6:51

and years and he read it

6:54

and loved it and he said

6:56

in a conversation I remember on

6:58

the phone he said what do

7:00

you think about Bob playing both

7:02

characters you know Vita and Frank

7:04

and I I thought about I

7:07

said well look we are talking

7:09

about one of the great actors

7:11

in the history of cinema so

7:13

it's not like I don't know

7:15

if he knows how to do

7:17

that. Let's see what Bob's reaction

7:20

is and Bob. you know, responded,

7:22

and said, yeah, yeah, look, let,

7:24

and that's how it all happened,

7:26

that's how a big guy. It's

7:28

so wonderful to watch those. I

7:30

mean, there's not a lot of

7:33

scenes where they're in it together,

7:35

but when they are, it's just,

7:37

it's such a gift to us

7:39

to have, you know, this man

7:41

playing opposite himself, so brilliantly. The

7:43

enthusiasm you have for, for your

7:46

craft, I mean, what a wonderful

7:48

opportunity for you, you know, you

7:50

know, in terms of to be

7:52

capturing to be capturing that. on

7:54

the director and I'm also the

7:56

audience. Yeah. And you would see

7:58

certain moments and you go, oh,

8:01

that's good. That's something. And it

8:03

didn't come like, okay, you show

8:05

up and we're going to do

8:07

this. We discussed the two of

8:09

them. We worked on those scenes

8:11

that they had together and tweaked

8:14

it and tweaked it leading up

8:16

to the actual shooting of it.

8:18

So Bob didn't take it lightly.

8:20

He understood the challenge. We would

8:22

just refine it. in terms of

8:24

the wording, then eventually, you know,

8:27

we put it into the camera.

8:29

One of the things that Bob

8:31

said, which I thought was very

8:33

helpful, he said, listen, I don't

8:35

want to have like a script

8:37

supervisor reading the lines off camera,

8:40

indeed a really good actor, so

8:42

that I'm really responding. And there

8:44

was an actor that we had

8:46

in the film. He said so

8:48

and so would be great. And

8:50

so for those scenes... he would

8:53

be frank or he would be

8:55

veto depending on that. And so

8:57

the fact that he was such

8:59

a good actor was important to

9:01

Bob that he really had a

9:03

formidable off-camera character. Yeah, it's quite

9:06

specific after someone that isn't it?

9:08

Fascinating to watch. I bet. There's

9:10

so many scenes I could talk

9:12

about within the film and there's

9:14

one that I one of many

9:16

that I absolutely loved which is

9:19

in the car when they're heading

9:21

towards this big neat. the Mormon

9:23

conversation, which is just one of

9:25

the great examples I think of

9:27

the film in terms of the

9:29

tonality of it. You know, there

9:32

are really some really funny moments

9:34

within this film as well as,

9:36

you know, it kind of been

9:38

incredibly dramatic and tense, but those

9:40

moments, that car scene is just

9:42

so fantastic to watch. You can

9:44

understand the sensibility if you find

9:47

the gold Bible, where are you

9:49

going to the desert? You know,

9:51

I mean, yeah, I comprehend that.

9:53

And so... It fits Vido's sensibility.

9:55

This makes no... So since there's

9:57

money to be made here, what

10:00

are you in the desert basically?

10:02

And it was a wonderful little

10:04

sequence to do, yeah. Now I

10:06

know it's over your left shoulder,

10:08

you have some golden platinum discs

10:10

hanging on the wall, and I'd

10:13

love to talk to you about

10:15

music, because you have the wonderful

10:17

David Fleming who scores the film,

10:19

but he also has to have.

10:21

to have a really close relationship

10:23

with the needle drops that feature

10:26

throughout the film as well. So

10:28

I was really interested to hear

10:30

you talk about working with David

10:32

and those kind of conversations you

10:34

had with him. He was terrific

10:36

to work with. He came on

10:39

to the project and immediately got

10:41

a grasp of what we needed

10:43

to accomplish, interest, the tonality of

10:45

the music and how it plays

10:47

out in terms of character behavior.

10:49

You know, we don't want it

10:52

to be too melodromatic. We don't

10:54

want to sell that. We don't

10:56

want it to seem romantic. So

10:58

how do we blend that so

11:00

we're not leaving the audience in

11:02

a sense of contradicting it? And

11:05

so I thought he had a

11:07

great sensibility. He had a right

11:09

to think he wrote the score

11:11

very quickly. And

12:29

talk to me a little bit

12:31

about those choices of the existing

12:34

music, because that in itself those

12:36

choices, they kind of take us

12:38

through the story musically almost in

12:40

a way in terms of how

12:42

music is evolving and changing as

12:44

well, you know, you have a

12:47

great line when we hear the

12:49

little relecture track. And so it's

12:51

kind of, there's music that's kind

12:53

of beautifully used kind of diegetically,

12:55

whether it's in some of those

12:57

old clips that we see, you

13:00

know, of the kind of that

13:02

I wish I'd been part of.

13:04

performances with big bands and it's

13:06

just glorious. You know, music is

13:08

so, is getting so difficult nowadays

13:11

because the cost of needle drops

13:13

is the term they use, they

13:15

like to use a lot has

13:17

become so expensive. We didn't have

13:19

that kind of budget, but we

13:21

did try to find a way

13:24

to support those scenes that needed

13:26

to be done. And we also

13:28

found some archival footage. of the

13:30

big band where we were able

13:32

to intercut as well. They gave

13:34

the energy in the sense of

13:37

time. It's very important to the

13:39

film in terms of its pacing

13:41

and how we want to draw

13:43

the audience into story. It just

13:45

can't just be playing music. It

13:47

has nothing to do with anything.

13:50

You have to find a way

13:52

to make a cohesive thing. Fortunately,

13:54

at least in my mind, I

13:56

thought we accomplished that. even though

13:58

we struggle in terms of how

14:00

to get the rights to certain.

14:03

and things because of the way

14:05

costs keep going up and up.

14:07

Slightly blows my mind, you know,

14:09

that having a film where you've

14:11

got double De Niro and yourself

14:14

and Irwin Winkler involved where people

14:16

aren't falling over themselves to give

14:18

you the music as well. Crazy.

14:20

At times the business is crazy.

14:22

As a director, when do you

14:24

start thinking about music? When does

14:27

that kind of, you know, that

14:29

thought process of what it's going

14:31

to sound like start? for you?

14:33

I start thinking about music even

14:35

when we're working on the drafts.

14:37

Oh wow great. Because I begin

14:40

to think about rhythm and what

14:42

dynamics and how to in this

14:44

in this particular case how do

14:46

we move through time that's how

14:48

early on them all I'm I'm

14:50

always thinking about music I can't

14:53

separate it like okay now I

14:55

got this oh what should I

14:57

do about music I mean integrated

14:59

very early on for me. Now

15:01

I may change it 15 different

15:03

times, but I'm always thinking of

15:06

a rhythm of a film. Music

15:08

is the big supporter of that.

15:10

So it's very early on, even

15:12

though, as I say, I may

15:14

change my mind, I can't separate

15:17

them out. And that goes back

15:19

very beginning when I was grieving

15:21

when I was writing on screenplay

15:23

that I would play certain songs.

15:25

over and over again while I

15:27

was writing a script, because there

15:30

was an energy in that music

15:32

that I would get translated to

15:34

the writing of a scene. Even

15:36

the beautiful way that it's a

15:38

companion to, even the way the

15:40

camera is moving in this film,

15:43

you know, there's one kind of

15:45

scene in particular that I was

15:47

just kind of so like poetic

15:49

and fluid and beautiful as... we're

15:51

in Frank's apartment and and the

15:53

camera just does like almost the

15:56

360 around him. and it's got

15:58

this beautiful kind of like, as

16:00

almost as if you're walking around

16:02

the room within as well, and

16:04

it's just, it's those moments as

16:06

well of how the music can

16:09

be a kind of like, it's

16:11

almost the music for the dance

16:13

of the movement of the camera

16:15

in a way. Some of those

16:17

things are thought of in advance,

16:20

and thought of in advance, and

16:22

sometimes it's, to be honest with

16:24

you, I know every director works

16:26

in a different way, but for

16:28

me sometimes. You have to explore.

16:30

So sometimes you'll try something and

16:33

you push the film and you

16:35

go, oh, too much, too much.

16:37

And then you'll go on the

16:39

other side and that has no

16:41

effect. And you just keep playing.

16:43

You keep playing that and try

16:46

to sometime define something that you

16:48

can't define in advance. And there's

16:50

a discovery to a film. A

16:52

film isn't just, okay, it's just

16:54

a, there is a discovery. Sometimes

16:56

a performance in a sense. shines

16:59

a light in a way that

17:01

you didn't even quite expect. And

17:03

then you'd say, all right, so

17:05

now how do I support that?

17:07

And so you have to, and

17:09

at least for me, I have

17:12

to be open to ideas that

17:14

start to get into my head

17:16

that will affect the film in

17:18

some way that you may not

17:20

at the very beginning. What would

17:22

you say was the biggest discovery

17:25

whilst making the alternate Fed in

17:27

terms of, you know, listening to...

17:29

Listen to the film whilst you're

17:31

making it that you might have

17:33

made changes of. That's a good

17:36

question. I'm not sure I can

17:38

give you it to specific. I

17:40

do know that I felt that

17:42

we needed to be able to

17:44

integrate archival with our action and

17:46

how do we support it with

17:49

the music? That big band scene

17:51

I had in my head something

17:53

has got to happen here. I

17:55

don't know what I hadn't I

17:57

hadn't found that yet. and I

17:59

was trying to figure out how

18:02

do I how can I get

18:04

to this and I would try

18:06

certain things that I would put

18:08

in there. I remember at one

18:10

time I put a song from

18:12

Chicago because it had a certain

18:15

sound energy to it. Now I

18:17

knew I could use it because

18:19

it's in the 70s and the

18:21

80s. You know I can't use

18:23

it. But there was something about

18:25

it. It's energy I thought would

18:28

be right. So the question is

18:30

where is that? Where is that

18:32

energy and something of... that would

18:34

fit the period, searching and searching,

18:36

and then we ended up with

18:39

what you see in the film.

18:41

That's great. It's also thinking about,

18:43

when you mentioned the kind of

18:45

archival elements to the film, you

18:47

know, you've got that, you've got

18:49

that kind of archive that you've

18:52

had to create as well for

18:54

the film, you know, in terms

18:56

of these two characters. But then

18:58

the other elements to it as

19:00

well, I love the almost narration

19:02

sort of part of it, of,

19:05

you know, the kind of the

19:07

kind of the... the older version

19:09

of Frank and you know I

19:11

really like that element of it

19:13

kind of it's really intimate it's

19:15

really personable. Yeah I'm glad that

19:18

you like that it was interesting

19:20

somewhere along the line and I

19:22

can't remember it all becomes a

19:24

blur at times you'd say look

19:26

he's an old man now you

19:28

know he's got a slight projector

19:31

and what can what can what

19:33

can that tell us? He's just

19:35

sort of looking at slides at

19:37

random, you know, and what can

19:39

that tell us as he's looking

19:42

back? And that sort of weaved

19:44

its way into the, you know,

19:46

the overall, you know, piece. It

19:48

becomes our storyteller, not a hundred

19:50

percent, but the way it weaves

19:52

its way in and out of

19:55

the piece as he's looking back

19:57

on the past. Talking about the

19:59

past, I was lucky enough last

20:01

year to go to a concert

20:03

here in London, which was a

20:05

celebration of the music of Hans

20:08

Zimmer, which Hans also came out.

20:10

and played guitar on and rain

20:12

man featured in that beautiful collection

20:14

and it was so so wonderful

20:16

to be reminded of that film

20:18

through his music and I just

20:21

wondered if you would mind kind

20:23

of reminiscent for a second about

20:25

the experience of creating that part

20:27

of the film with hands and.

20:29

No it's an interesting story. Most

20:31

road pictures you know have guitars

20:34

in there are always a vena-na-na-na-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a

20:36

It's got guitars and things and

20:38

it's you know it's part of

20:40

like you know road picture we're

20:42

a road picture and every time

20:45

I put a piece of music

20:47

where we have the guitars and

20:49

things it didn't feel right and

20:51

so I kept playing music against

20:53

the picture and nothing felt it

20:55

didn't feel right. I was talking

20:58

to my wife and I said

21:00

there's another sound and I don't

21:02

know what it is but it's

21:04

something different than you know traveling

21:06

music. you don't know what it

21:08

is. And so anyway, she she

21:11

went to see some film. I

21:13

forgot the name of it now.

21:15

I was thinking of the world

21:17

apart. I can't remember the name.

21:19

And she said, you know, there's

21:21

some kind of music in it.

21:24

Sort of like, what you've been

21:26

sort of abstractly talking about. And

21:28

I said, well, I have to

21:30

hear it. And so I listened

21:32

to it. Oh, this is interesting.

21:34

And who's the composer? As it

21:37

turns out, we had to go

21:39

to London for something, which I

21:41

cannot remember in ABAR so long

21:43

ago. And so, I said, I

21:45

got to meet Han Zebur, and

21:48

I went to meet him, and

21:50

he had speakers everywhere, you know.

21:52

This was like a madman here

21:54

with him. I said my problem,

21:56

the guitars doesn't seem right to

21:58

me, and this doesn't write or

22:01

whatever. And so he started playing

22:03

some things. that had, they were

22:05

sort of drum pieces, all kinds

22:07

of great drums they had, but

22:09

all kinds of things. Boy, and

22:11

I've, and I've, it's fun, interesting.

22:14

And so I ended up, you

22:16

know, hiring him to do the

22:18

score. It developed and then it

22:20

became what you heard. There are

22:22

no strings or whatever, all of

22:24

that. Now, here's the, here's the

22:27

crazy part of it. When we

22:29

were having an early screenings, and

22:31

I had some people that, you

22:33

know, work with autistic, etc. One

22:35

of them said, how did you

22:37

know that autistics, those who are

22:40

autistic, don't respond to strings? We

22:42

said that he didn't know that.

22:44

He said, no, they don't. They

22:46

respond to much more percussion type

22:48

of thing. Where does it? And

22:50

the ribbons. And I said, I

22:53

didn't know it. I just couldn't

22:55

hear the strings seem wrong. So

22:57

by accident. And if you listened

22:59

to it, it's got. It doesn't

23:01

have it. It's got to-pah-pah-pah-pah-pah-pah-pah-pah-pah-tah. That's

23:04

what it is. It's all percussion,

23:06

the whole entire thing, which Hans

23:08

did. That's how it happened. So

23:10

sometimes you have to trust your

23:12

instinct, even though you don't understand

23:14

where this is going. It's like

23:17

a nerdy and you don't know

23:19

what? What's my going with this?

23:21

How can I not? Why does

23:23

this song work? Why does that?

23:25

And that's in a sense how

23:27

that happened and Hans just nailed

23:30

it writing what he was writing

23:32

and we had a great, you

23:34

know, we've worked on different films.

23:36

He was very helpful on this

23:38

one here because when I was

23:40

saying about a composer and he

23:43

was busy at that point in

23:45

time. but he recommended David Fleming

23:47

and that's how David Fleming came

23:49

aboard. And Badi I could chat

23:51

too for hours. It's still lovely.

23:53

I give me such a beautiful

23:56

insight into films all and new.

23:58

and long may they continue. Sorry,

24:00

it's a treat to get time

24:02

with you. Thank you so much.

24:04

No, this was fun. I enjoyed

24:07

it. From

25:06

the score to Rain Man that's on

25:08

the road by Hans Zimmer rounding off

25:10

this first part of soundtracking on the

25:13

All-To Nights with Barry Levinson. And by

25:15

coincidence Hans was our guest on a

25:17

previous episode of soundtrack and alongside Paul

25:19

Dugdale who directed Hans Zimmer and Friends

25:21

Diamond in the desert. Check that out

25:23

if you haven't already. on a big

25:26

screen, just he did all that music

25:28

played live by his phenomenal band and

25:30

also diving in to conversations with so

25:32

many great people actually, not just the

25:34

directors that he's worked with, but some

25:36

of the cast, people like Zendey and

25:39

Timothy Shalomay, it's really insightful. The second

25:41

part then of this alternate special features

25:43

something of a legend. writer, director and

25:45

producer Erwin Winkler who's worked on 60-odd

25:47

films dating back to 1967's Elvis Presley

25:50

vehicle Double Trouble and as you'll hear

25:52

he He's been integral

25:54

to some of

25:56

the greatest films ever

25:58

made, from Raging Boo to Rocky.

26:00

But he's with us to with

26:03

us to discuss

26:05

his role as on

26:07

on The So so

26:09

we'll get right into

26:11

it with him

26:14

with one of David

26:16

David Fleming's cues. Rosies. Congratulations

27:55

on this film.

27:57

I film. I loved

27:59

it. it. I was... Oh,

28:01

thank you. weirdly kind of as

28:03

a teenager I got obsessed with

28:05

the kind of whole American kind

28:07

of mob world made my parents

28:09

take me to Boston to Queen

28:11

Street Market and crazy crazy and

28:13

but this just felt like something

28:15

we'd never kind of seen before

28:17

and the kind of really internal

28:19

relationships particularly with these two characters

28:21

it was wonderful thank you thank

28:23

you This has been a long

28:25

time coming though, this has been

28:27

a project that's been around for

28:30

a while. Yeah, well, I was

28:32

kind of obsessed with the Frankenstein

28:34

character, even growing up in New

28:36

York as a young man. Yeah.

28:38

Because as a young film watcher

28:40

back in my days in school,

28:42

I watched the Jimmy Cagney Warner

28:44

Brothers movies where... It was George

28:46

Raft or even Humphrey Bogart in

28:48

the early days and the gangsters

28:50

were kind of black and white,

28:52

tough. And then when I got

28:54

a little older and I saw

28:56

in New York there was a

28:58

man by the name of Frank

29:00

Costello who was not that too

29:02

many cagney character but instead wore

29:04

very custom-made suits. He was married

29:07

to a Jewish woman. He lived

29:09

on Central Park. He went to

29:11

the best clubs. And he used

29:13

to go to the world of

29:15

his story for a haircut every

29:17

day. Every day. Every day. And

29:19

that was Frankenstein. I said, well,

29:21

this is not the gangster that

29:23

I saw in the movies. Yeah,

29:25

yeah. So he fascinated. The character

29:27

fascinated me. And I worked on

29:29

it back in the 70s and

29:31

couldn't come up with an idea.

29:33

And then Nick and I, Nick

29:35

Pellegi and I, who were all

29:37

friends, must have been 10 years

29:39

ago. We started talking about Costello.

29:41

We worked on and off for

29:43

many, many years. And then Barry

29:46

Levinson said he wanted to work

29:48

on it with us, and he

29:50

came up with the idea of...

29:52

fetal Geno beefs, the fact that

29:54

these two men grew up together.

29:56

They came from the same area,

29:58

they were hoods together, tough guys

30:00

together, and one went off and

30:02

became a very classy guy and

30:04

the other one stayed a really

30:06

tough gangster and liked it. In

30:08

fact, in the movie, he says

30:10

to Gustavo, I'm a gangster, that's

30:12

who I am. And he likes

30:14

it. And so I thought it

30:16

was interesting, basically, because... And the

30:18

way Bob is playing it, he's

30:20

playing basically the same man, one

30:23

goes off this way, one goes

30:25

off the other way, and ultimately

30:27

it's the conflict between the two

30:29

of them. It's like the two

30:31

peas in a pod that kind

30:33

of almost could go two cents.

30:35

And one man playing both pump

30:37

peas. Your idea for Bob to

30:39

take on both parts? Yeah, I

30:41

guess so, yeah. Yeah. Did he

30:43

jump at the idea? Was it

30:45

kind of like? He doesn't jump.

30:47

He paused. No, when I, what

30:49

happened was I gave him the

30:51

script and he called me and

30:53

he said, he really locked it

30:55

and he liked it. He was

30:57

fascinated by the Althonites, which turned

31:00

out to be a club he

31:02

hung around when he was 16.

31:04

No. That's why we use it.

31:06

It was a gangster hangout. The

31:08

Althonites, it was a club. It

31:10

was called the Althonites Bob when

31:12

he was 16 and 70. He

31:14

hung around. And basically. He saw

31:16

his friends that also hung around

31:18

were either going to jail or

31:20

getting shot. Wow. And he decided

31:22

he wanted to be an actor

31:24

instead of a gangster. Bob did.

31:26

He went to Castello week. Because

31:28

of the Alto Nights. Yeah. I

31:30

said to him, what happened? He

31:32

says, well, I decided I didn't

31:34

want to get shot. I didn't

31:37

want to go to jail. And

31:39

I became an actor. Wow. So

31:41

this is so... The Alto Nights

31:43

meant a great deal to Bob.

31:45

That's why I used it as

31:47

a title. I gave him the

31:49

script, he said, I could, who

31:51

do you think should play veto?

31:53

Because Bowery had built up this

31:55

other character. there so much. I

31:57

couldn't think of anybody really who

31:59

could really I thought match Bob

32:01

as an actor for the two

32:03

of them to be in the

32:05

same frame together and I said

32:07

well why did you play both

32:09

parts and and there was this

32:11

long pause it wasn't a jumping

32:14

up and down or a wrong

32:16

point. I said yeah you really

32:18

mean I said yeah now I'm

32:20

convinced myself and he said well

32:22

let me call Barry. And he

32:24

called Barry Levenson, Barry Levence said,

32:26

yeah, that's a great idea, let's

32:28

do it. And that's how it's

32:30

developed. I imagine it would take

32:32

us a long conversation to talk

32:34

about how you actually achieved it

32:36

in terms of making the film,

32:38

but it's incredible, it's absolutely seamless.

32:40

And those scenes where they're in

32:42

together, it's like, the idea of

32:44

Robert De Nino, you know, playing

32:46

opposite himself, is a gift for

32:48

us film fans. Yeah, well, I

32:51

love, I love, I love, the,

32:53

the, the, the one scene, you

32:55

know, you know, the first part

32:57

of the first part of the

32:59

film of the film, you know,

33:01

the film, you know, you know,

33:03

you know, you know, you know,

33:05

you know, you, you know, you,

33:07

you, you, you, you, you, you,

33:09

you, you, you, you, you, you,

33:11

you, you, you, you, you, you,

33:13

you, you, you, you, you Frankustelle

33:15

here and you have Vito and

33:17

they're separate. But when they finally

33:19

meet, there's a scene on the

33:21

street where you see a car

33:23

pull up. Frankestelle comes out, talks

33:25

to a woman in the street,

33:28

and while they're talking another carpools

33:30

up and then Vito Genevies comes

33:32

out, and they stand there and

33:34

talking to each other, and then

33:36

they walk into a restaurant together

33:38

and you say, well, how did

33:40

that do it? Yeah. That's wonderful

33:42

though that backstory to Bob with

33:44

that idea of being able to

33:46

kind of pour a real experience

33:48

you know of seeing this world

33:50

and experiencing that world into these

33:52

characters and that film that real

33:54

personal you know experience of kind

33:56

of having lived in that kind

33:58

of environment for you know as

34:00

an observer yeah amazing that he

34:02

was able to pour that into

34:05

the film. Well you know what

34:07

he's you know actor he mean

34:09

and the actor probably you know

34:11

if I had a... So who

34:13

is a great American act of

34:15

the last 50 years, the films

34:17

that I've worked on, I mean,

34:19

we did, we did the game

34:21

we couldn't shoot. and then we

34:23

did, we did New York, New

34:25

York, he was very hesitant about

34:27

playing the part because he said,

34:29

if I'm gonna lose, I have

34:31

to really be a good saxophone

34:33

player. So we got a member

34:35

named Georgie All who plays the

34:37

bandleader in New York, New York,

34:39

and Georgie All gave Bob lessons

34:42

on how to play the saxophone.

34:44

And after they worked for a

34:46

while, they were in Georgie All's

34:48

apartment. And George oil's wife was

34:50

in another room and came in

34:52

and said, George, that review just

34:54

played was really terrific. That's really

34:56

great. And it was Bob that

34:58

played. So that convinced Bob that

35:00

he could impress George oil his

35:02

wife. And then when we did

35:04

raging ball, he was ready to

35:06

go into the ring with a

35:08

real boxer. So that's who he

35:10

is, just how he prepares. How

35:12

do you know? As his friend,

35:14

but also as a producer, when

35:16

it's a Bob project, when he's

35:19

right for the roles, does it

35:21

kind of jump off the page

35:23

you see him in those roles

35:25

when you read the story? Yeah,

35:27

but some of them, we've done

35:29

so many movies, but when I

35:31

directed him in two movies, in

35:33

the blacklisting movie, Gilly by Suspicion,

35:35

I wanted somebody who was very,

35:37

very successful and then wasn't. and

35:39

watch how the character goes from

35:41

success to failure because of this

35:43

Hollywood blacklist. So Bob was always

35:45

on my mind because we had

35:47

done so many movies together. I

35:49

said, okay, yeah, let's, let me

35:51

give it. It's changed enough. Every

35:53

time I've wanted to get Bob

35:55

for a movie, he's done it.

35:58

So we kind of think together.

36:00

Maybe we've been just doing this

36:02

so wrong together. We did gangna

36:04

couldn't shoot straight. New York, New

36:06

York, New York, New York, New

36:08

York, New York, New York. a

36:10

raging book, a terrific movie that

36:12

a lot of people have in

36:14

school. two confessions with him and

36:16

Robert Duval, a terrific movie, about

36:18

the church and the abuses of

36:20

the church in California. And then

36:22

we did Good Fellows and we

36:24

directed him twice in Night in

36:26

the City and then we did

36:28

the Irishman together. And here we

36:30

are. So it's a long... Yeah.

36:32

I'm very lucky. Yeah. I'm very

36:35

lucky. Yeah. I'm very lucky. Yeah.

36:37

I'm very lucky. Yeah. You have

36:39

the wonderful David Fleming is composing

36:41

for the Altonites and he has

36:43

a, you know, it's always a

36:45

really interesting job for a composer

36:47

when there's lots of needle drops,

36:49

existing music that kind of, you

36:51

know, flutters throughout the film and

36:53

this. Another wonderful thing I love

36:55

about the film is the use

36:57

of old footage, whether that's... old

36:59

footage that's been created and made

37:01

for the film to look like

37:03

old footage or whether it is

37:05

existing real old footage. Some of

37:07

that's banned, you know when we

37:09

see the old bands playing and

37:12

things like that and you have

37:14

this wonderful soundtrack of music that

37:16

exists but then you have David

37:18

score on top of that and

37:20

they really complement each other. How

37:22

involved do you get in the

37:24

music side of things as a

37:26

producer? Some do, some don't. Yeah.

37:28

I've been lucky because the New

37:30

York, New York song came out

37:32

of the movie, New York, New

37:34

York, the Rocky theme. Oh, Bill

37:36

Conte. Yeah, that score. You know,

37:38

Bill Conte, when we hired him

37:40

to do the score, had been

37:42

playing a piano in a bar

37:44

in Venice, Italy. Yeah, that's what

37:46

we, I mean, basically, basically, our

37:49

film editor. had worked on a

37:51

movie called Boom in Love with

37:53

Paul Mazurski and they had shot

37:55

in Venice and he had heard

37:57

Bill there and knew that Bill

37:59

was a composer. That's how he

38:01

hired him. It was his first

38:03

movie. But again, that, I think,

38:05

Konti's work on Rocky. Musically, the

38:07

tremendous help to the movie, beyond

38:09

anything I've ever seen in any

38:11

other movie. Running up those stairs

38:13

with that training sequence with the

38:15

music. And we've emulated ourselves, five

38:17

other Rockies, and even Creed, the

38:19

success we had with Creed. Yeah.

38:21

Yeah, which we use just another

38:23

version of Boghante's music. Yeah. The

39:14

moments of score in this that,

39:16

you know, I've seen the film

39:18

once were trying to kind of

39:20

capture those moments in my head

39:22

to talk to you about is,

39:24

but it felt really luxurious and

39:26

really kind of quite, almost old-school

39:28

Hollywood in a way, you know,

39:31

those beautiful luxurious scores, which similarly

39:33

talking about Rocky almost with Bill

39:35

score, not what you expect for

39:37

a boxing film in that it

39:39

was... So romantic, yeah, yeah, yeah,

39:41

and similarly I think... David's school

39:43

with this is really similar and

39:45

that it's not what you'd expect

39:47

for a gangster film in a

39:49

way. It's beautiful. But the difference

39:51

you see on good fellows, mighty

39:53

use all needle jobs and use

39:55

it so effectively. Yeah, so good.

39:57

You know, some of those musical

40:00

pieces are just brilliant. And he

40:02

did it basically on Raging Bull

40:04

as well. Yeah. Yeah. I remember

40:06

we spent on Raging Bull, we

40:08

spent months and months in the

40:10

mixing room just putting in little

40:12

music cues that you can't even

40:14

find somewhere. And we had this,

40:16

we spent a lot of money,

40:18

a lot of time and effort

40:20

on the score. And I remember,

40:22

Marty and I took the film

40:24

to New York to play it,

40:26

and the sound was terrible, and

40:29

I ran to the theater on,

40:31

it was like 12 o'clock on

40:33

a Friday, I ran to the

40:35

theater on, I said, the sound

40:37

is terrible, I just bought six

40:39

new speakers at Radio Shack for

40:41

$59 each, and it should be

40:43

great. And I said, wait a

40:45

minute, we just spent a million

40:47

dollars on mixing this film. But

40:49

theaters are better than that now.

40:51

They are all, but they're all

40:53

being all about, yeah. But you,

40:55

I love how you, you clearly

40:58

appreciate how, how important music is

41:00

for stories. Yeah, because I've been

41:02

fortunate enough to, to have a

41:04

great success. People remember the song,

41:06

New York, New York, more than

41:08

they, when I tell them it

41:10

came from a movie, they look

41:12

at me like them. But what

41:14

happened was, Rhizemineau, Elle, obviously made

41:16

a record of it. We couldn't

41:18

get a play it. Two years

41:20

later. When the film had gone

41:22

off, nobody knew about the movie

41:24

anymore, Frank Sinatra heard the song

41:27

and wanted to record it, but

41:29

he didn't want to record it

41:31

unless Liza said okay, just out

41:33

of respect. She didn't have any

41:35

rights to, you know, on it.

41:37

And he called Liza and said,

41:39

I'd like to record that, but

41:41

I don't want to, she said,

41:43

look, nobody's listening to my version

41:45

of it. Go ahead. And that's

41:47

what made the song, which Sinatra's

41:49

version of it. But two years

41:51

later. Wow that's amazing. Sinatra in

41:53

the alternates as well we have

41:56

a bit of Sinatra in there.

41:58

What's that? We have a bit

42:00

of Sinatra, Anything Goes, in The

42:02

Old Tonight's. Yeah. All those tracks

42:04

does nickwrite those in script? Is

42:06

music written into the script? Most

42:08

of that came from Bowery Livingston.

42:10

Yeah. It's great, because it's a

42:12

real journey of those kind of.

42:14

Yeah. The music's also telling you

42:16

where we are in time frame

42:18

as well, you know, when Little

42:20

Richard comes in. Yeah. But that's

42:22

Bower, yeah. Yeah. It's lovely when

42:25

you mentioned earlier about those kind

42:27

of early, kind of gangster films.

42:29

And in the film, in this

42:31

we have white heat, cognitive film

42:33

features, features on the TV, which

42:35

is that kind of lovely kind

42:37

of nod to that. Basically, I

42:39

grew up with the romance of

42:41

gangsters, because those early Warner Brothers

42:43

films, the gangsters were really very,

42:45

very, very tough young men, who

42:47

basically had very little opportunity. to

42:49

have an education, to do anything

42:51

really great because they came from

42:54

immigrant families that were poor. And

42:56

the only way they can get

42:58

any success is basically through crime.

43:00

And they looked at it that

43:02

way. So there was a romance

43:04

about them. They became heroic. No

43:06

matter how bad Jimmy Cagney was

43:08

in some of those films, he

43:10

still felt sympathy and you were

43:12

on his side. When you look

43:14

at, ultimately, and the best one

43:16

of all, but that was in

43:18

Coppola's Godfather, when you think about

43:20

it, they're going on killing people.

43:22

But yet, it's a great romance.

43:25

You think these, they're all families,

43:27

they stick together, they care about

43:29

things, you know, and when you

43:31

see the very rich people in

43:33

the American films, most of them

43:35

are not very nice, you know.

43:37

And the guys doesn't really, they

43:39

care about things. Who does Jimmy

43:41

Cangley care about the most? His

43:43

mother, right? At his last words.

43:45

The only thing about is one

43:47

of the mom is... How could

43:49

you really think he's so terrible

43:51

if he loves his mother more

43:54

than anything else? And they're funny

43:56

a lot of the time as

43:58

well. They make you laugh. In

44:00

All Tonight's, there's that scene where

44:02

they're driving, you know, out of

44:04

time for the meeting. Oh, and

44:06

they're talking about the Mormons? Oh,

44:08

that scene is absolutely hilarious. How

44:10

was that all scripted or was

44:12

there? No, that was, yeah, Nick

44:14

wrote that, yeah, that was scripted,

44:16

yeah. Wow. It feels like just

44:18

such a kind of riff between

44:20

them all with us. Well, that's

44:23

because Bob and the actors are

44:25

so great that they, sounds like

44:27

it's all just happening in the

44:29

spur of the moment. But all

44:31

that stuff is, you know, prepared.

44:33

Wow. Yeah. They make it look

44:35

so good that way because he's

44:37

a great ad libera, I should

44:39

probably know. And he encourages that

44:41

kind of off-the-cuff acting. But that

44:43

requires the actors that are doing

44:45

it to really know the character

44:47

and who they are and all.

44:49

So they can play it together.

44:52

And then it comes to Bowery

44:54

to get into the editing room

44:56

and, you know, filter it all

44:58

out to make it all work.

45:00

Because when actors have lived, not

45:02

everything is going to be on

45:04

the nose, obviously. And shouldn't be.

45:06

And when you're working with Bob

45:08

and he's, you know, a producer

45:10

on a project, how involved does

45:12

he, does he ever get involved

45:14

in the music side of things?

45:16

Is it something that interests? Yeah,

45:18

he gets pretty much involved in

45:21

everything. Wow. He takes center stage

45:23

in the film and he really

45:25

cares about every aspect of it.

45:27

You know, he gave notes on

45:29

everything. Yeah. Yeah. And how did

45:31

it work with? with him playing

45:33

Frank and Vito. Did you shoot

45:35

one and then the other or

45:37

were you mixing between the two

45:39

or? Yeah, I mean the one

45:41

scene that expresses that when you

45:43

see them meet for the first

45:45

time and basically he had a

45:47

play. both parts but he had

45:50

to play it against somebody so

45:52

we shot it over two days

45:54

with a locked-in camera yeah and

45:56

he played the one part but

45:58

he had to play it against

46:00

something yeah so he had an

46:02

act to do some of that's

46:04

the scene so he can play

46:06

Costello against Genevies and then Genevies

46:08

against Costello because he couldn't play

46:10

it against the blank screen yeah

46:12

yeah so he did it and

46:14

then it worked out great yeah

46:16

Can I ask you about a

46:19

little film that you, a documentary

46:21

that you released a few years

46:23

ago called Music Got Me Here?

46:25

You're an executive producer and it's

46:27

this amazing story about this young

46:29

kid who had an accident and

46:31

it's about music therapy. Yeah. And

46:33

I help a charter here in

46:35

the UK called Nordorf and Robbins

46:37

which is all about music therapy

46:39

and helping, you know, all different

46:41

people. How do you know about

46:43

that, brother? How, what, the film?

46:45

About, yeah, that I was doing

46:48

that. Because I saw the film

46:50

and I just thought it was

46:52

amazing story. I just. Oh, and

46:54

you knew that I was involved

46:56

in. Yeah, I saw that you

46:58

were in. Well, I didn't have

47:00

any to do with the documentary,

47:02

but we have a script that

47:04

I wrote with my writing partner

47:06

about. Oh, wow. Basically, based on

47:08

that documentary. And it's happening? Well,

47:10

we don't have a, uh, uh,

47:12

not yet, not yet, we haven't

47:14

been able to, uh, uh, uh,

47:17

uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

47:19

uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

47:21

uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

47:23

uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

47:25

uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

47:27

uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

47:29

uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

47:31

uh, uh But yeah, it's really

47:33

a fascinating extraordinary how music would

47:35

basically cure you. You're very interested

47:37

in music, I noticed. How did

47:39

you become aware of the story?

47:41

What interested you in the story?

47:43

Well, somebody told me about the

47:46

documentary in a range for me

47:48

to see it, and then I

47:50

just became fascinated. Then I found

47:52

out that there is like, actually

47:54

a group of performers, mostly musicians,

47:56

who are very, very involved in

47:58

creating... on awareness that there's a

48:00

possibility of music being a curing

48:02

process. So then we basically had,

48:04

I co-wrote it, I had a

48:06

couple of scripts written. and I

48:08

didn't like them and then I

48:10

wrote it myself with my writing

48:12

partner. And in fact, Barry is

48:14

interested in directing it, but we

48:17

haven't, Barry Levinson, but we haven't

48:19

been able to cast it yet.

48:21

But it's really a fine, fine

48:23

story. Yeah. Pretty much follow the

48:25

documentary except we spend a lot

48:27

more time with the therapist as

48:29

well. Yeah. Because the boy doesn't

48:31

too very much much. It's a

48:33

therapist that really is unusual. Yeah,

48:35

they're special people. Yeah, yeah, really.

48:37

I'm so excited for that. I

48:39

really hope that I get chat.

48:41

Yeah, we can have another chat

48:43

about it as well. Okay, yeah,

48:46

I'm glad you brought it up.

48:48

Yeah. Last question, you very kindly

48:50

said you can see how much

48:52

I love music. And I wondered

48:54

for you if there's a moment

48:56

you go back to you talking

48:58

about yourself being, you know, a

49:00

film fan and watching movies. Was

49:02

there a moment where you... Kind

49:04

of recognized or realized how important

49:06

music was in storytale and is

49:08

there a film and well, yes,

49:10

but I'll tell you about it

49:12

People say well you made so

49:15

many film. What's your favorite film

49:17

and my favorite film is a

49:19

shot a film I shot here

49:21

In London that I directed called

49:23

The Lovelyly. Yeah, which is about

49:25

Cole Porter a great America composer

49:27

and I loved every moment of

49:29

making that movie because I loved

49:31

the Cole Porter music I grew

49:33

up as a kid from Coney

49:35

Island in New York, listening to

49:37

those great bands, the Perry Comos,

49:39

people who nobody even heard of

49:41

today, and Bing Crosby, and then

49:44

later Frank Sinatra. And so I

49:46

fell in love with it. I

49:48

actually, as a very, very, as

49:50

a kid, I went to see

49:52

Frank Sinatra at the Paramount Theatre

49:54

in New York, where he had

49:56

his great outcome coming out. So

49:58

I mean it's always been a

50:00

big part of my life and

50:02

that's why doing the lovely to

50:04

me was such a great great

50:06

experience because what could be better

50:08

every 10 minutes you have another

50:10

cold porter so long you know

50:13

I mean I just I love

50:15

it yeah to me that was

50:17

the ultimate yeah that was the

50:19

ultimate that was the ultimate and

50:21

you got to make it into

50:23

a film fantastic so lovely chat

50:25

to you really lovely thank you

50:27

so much for your time The

50:30

kind of

50:33

ditty that

50:35

invokes the

50:37

spring. So

50:39

control your

50:41

desire to

50:43

curse. Well,

50:45

I crucify

50:47

the verse.

50:50

This verse

50:52

you've started

50:54

seems to

50:56

me. So

50:58

to spare you all the pain,

51:00

I'll skip the darn thing and

51:02

sing the refrain. Me, me, me,

51:05

me, re, re, re, re, re,

51:07

re, re, re, re, re, de

51:09

re, do so me, do la

51:11

see. It's featured in the lovely,

51:13

that's, it's the lovely, performed by

51:15

Robbie Williams. Rounding off this late

51:17

is the episode of soundtracking with

51:19

Erwin Winkler and Barry Levinson. A

51:21

huge thanks to both of them

51:23

for taking the time to talk

51:26

to me. The Alto Nights is

51:28

on general release now and apart

51:30

from anything else it's another showcase

51:32

for Robert De Niro's extraordinary talent

51:34

as an actor. If you want

51:36

to hear Bob? as I am

51:38

now allowed to call him, on

51:40

soundtrack and you can head to

51:42

edithbowman.com where you can find my

51:44

chats with Martin Scorsesee and Martis.

51:46

as I also am allowed

51:49

to call him,

51:51

to call editor, Thelma

51:53

editor, We have,

51:55

after all, We done

51:57

after a lot

51:59

of episodes, a lot of

52:01

episodes, 499 to date, with

52:03

date with our this

52:05

coming this Monday.

52:07

to share I can't

52:10

wait to share

52:12

it with you

52:14

with all the

52:16

lovely messages from

52:18

friends of the

52:20

show, both guests

52:22

and listeners, you

52:24

guys whom whom we wouldn't

52:27

have made it this

52:29

far. far. So you in advance

52:31

and please join us

52:33

on Monday, will also also throw

52:35

in a brilliant about adolescence with

52:37

Stephen Graham the the Philip Barentini. I've

52:39

I very much look

52:41

forward to the pleasure of

52:43

your company today.