0:10

Hello , welcome to another episode of

0:12

the Creating Belonging Podcast . Today

0:14

I have with me Alex Draper

0:16

. Alex , if you wouldn't mind , just introducing yourself

0:18

.

0:20

Good morning , afternoon , good evening , wherever you're calling in

0:22

from , wherever you are . My name is Alex . I

0:24

am CEO and founder of

0:26

a company called DX here in Chicago

0:29

. We're here to bring care to the world

0:31

.

0:33

Amazing , amazing , and

0:35

I'm excited for this conversation kind of

0:37

where we'll dig into . I know the

0:39

work that we do is similar

0:42

, but before we get started and I just want to

0:44

see , as we have , all of our guests

0:46

share some of their identities . So

0:48

if you wouldn't mind sharing what are some identities that are

0:50

relevant for you that might come up in this conversation

0:53

?

0:53

Yeah , I identify as my

0:56

pronouns he , him . I am white . I

0:58

was born in England in

1:00

a small little village I think . We have a couple of

1:02

hundred people and a lot of sheep and cows . I

1:04

therefore I see myself as an immigrant

1:07

here in America . I

1:09

only speak English , although two languages

1:11

I speak English and American English , so

1:14

maybe that is bilingual

1:16

in some ways and

1:18

I think that's it .

1:21

Yeah , that difference comes in if you're

1:23

talking about biscuits or

1:26

cookies and like getting that

1:28

like the important things .

1:30

Chips , Sorry , Chips . Oh , chips

1:33

or chips . Yeah , no , I have spent

1:35

. As you can tell , when I

1:37

go back to the UK they call me the Yank

1:39

, but when I come here they call me the Brits . So just

1:41

, I'm in this transitional who I fly

1:43

, I feel like I . There's an

1:45

identity crisis , if ever you heard of one . No

1:48

, it's fascinating and I have adapted . They

1:50

always say I think if you move to a country before

1:52

a certain age I think it's 12 , you

1:55

adopt the language of that country

1:57

and after that you keep , like

2:00

my wife's Polish . She moved here when she's seven , but

2:02

you wouldn't know . But of course her parents are moved

2:05

here and they were older than that and they

2:07

speak with a Polish accent . So just , it's always a

2:09

little fascinating to for immigrants of what

2:11

they keep and what they don't .

2:13

Yeah , and how that get how and when

2:15

that gets cemented in . Yeah

2:18

, I love it . So I want to start

2:20

off with one of the questions that I think

2:22

resonated with you do , as you were going

2:24

through some of the creating belonging work , and

2:27

I'm curious have you ever had , have

2:29

you ever covered up a part of your

2:31

identity because

2:33

you felt maybe it wasn't

2:35

welcomed ?

2:38

Yeah , a couple of

2:40

times when I read the book , this was the question I'm like yeah

2:45

it stuck out . I went to

2:47

. I'm a white guy and I call myself privileged

2:49

. I went to a . I

2:51

went to a boarding school in the UK One

2:54

of the best my father was had some issues , so we

2:56

say one of he was an extreme narcissist

2:58

and , of course , sending your son to a boarding school in the

3:03

UK is deemed amazing . It made him look

3:05

good , but we didn't have the money for it . We never . We

3:08

didn't grow up with money and it wasn't something that that sending me

3:10

to boarding school is

3:13

something that we could afford . So some major sacrifices were made so

3:15

I ended up going to a school where , surrounded by

3:17

extremely extreme affluence

3:19

, and that was what . From the age

3:21

of what

3:23

? Seven years of my life . So

3:25

, yeah , there was a case of I

3:28

had to say things about and hide things about the real

3:30

realities of how I grew up and

3:32

our upbringing and where I lived and

3:34

the types of things

3:37

that I had to tell the story shall

3:39

we say about and fabricate the truth just to fit in . The only looking

3:41

back now do I just realize how traumatic

3:43

that was , while I was privileged and went

3:46

to an amazing school and I'm here because of it

3:49

. Then get me wrong , just the trope . Now , as

3:51

I look back and I'm at a age

3:54

of reflection , it's just amazing

3:56

, by having to not be authentic and

3:59

to force acceptance over such a long time

4:01

, it was definitely had a huge toll and I'll never forget

4:05

it . So , yeah , that was the one that definitely springs up

4:07

to mind .

4:09

Yeah . So I

4:11

guess the first place I'm going with that I'm just thinking

4:13

about for that , like

4:16

for a kid , like

4:18

growing up you were wearing

4:20

a mask every day , putting that on , and

4:23

I'm assuming at some point in

4:26

your transition into adulthood and current

4:28

day , alex , you've

4:31

peeled back that mask , but it

4:33

probably wasn't like one big reveal , like it had to be different

4:37

layers of getting comfortable

4:39

with just being you out in

4:41

the world . I

4:44

wanted that's where I want to dig , like what I'm

4:46

not selfie a bit about that journey .

4:49

I believe , many reasons why

4:51

I moved to America , but I believe

4:53

escaping that was one

4:55

of them . What happens towards the latter

4:58

, again a consciousness , I think when you're

5:00

12 , 13 , there's a degree

5:02

of just blissful ignorance . But the more

5:04

conscious you get , the more the prefrontal cortex

5:06

kicks in and the more understanding of

5:08

what's going on around you start to see who this

5:11

is . My fakeness

5:13

continued and got more . The

5:15

lies got worse in trying to fit in

5:17

and I actually ended up rebelling

5:19

towards the end of it . My grades suffered

5:21

and then I was the pendulum

5:24

swing and when I my great grades

5:26

failed I had to go back to school for a further

5:28

year to . But then I went to a different

5:30

type of school where I thought I fit in and I didn't

5:32

fit in there either , so that the pendulum

5:35

had swung for the bad kids who failed , and

5:37

I was one of those bad kids who failed , and

5:39

the consequences were at the time , of course , the

5:41

rebellion of . I think there's only so much that you can

5:43

take before you start to , in my case

5:46

, rebel do something , and

5:48

then that consequence led to me me just

5:50

falling significantly behind , and

5:52

then I truly believe it's one of the reasons why

5:54

I moved here to really just start again . I

5:57

can be me here . I can add to that I

6:00

felt that's another story of me being here , but that

6:02

I felt that was I could be me in

6:04

a different country and not have to hide .

6:07

Yeah , that's . It's interesting to like to

6:09

be able to start that over . There was . So

6:11

one of our guests on the first season , lauren

6:14

, who's a dear friend of mine , who grew up in

6:16

London and she

6:18

was an adult with

6:20

her sexuality when she was in London and

6:23

as soon as she moved to the States , started

6:25

exploring that , and it was this

6:27

. We , I remember we choked about how

6:29

it was , like she literally came to the States

6:31

for freedom , and it was that

6:33

freedom of . It wasn't like why

6:36

she would say that she came here , but it was that

6:38

freedom of oh , I can figure out

6:40

who I really . So

6:42

tell me a little bit about that then , as you

6:45

were exploring who you are without

6:47

the need to have a

6:49

mask on .

6:51

It's like there's no filter . So you moved to

6:53

a country you don't know anyone . Because that's what happened here

6:55

. I said that I was I

6:58

call it lucky and grateful that I had the opportunity

7:00

to take the then business hours . We're over

7:02

here and really start their US business

7:04

. So here's a phone , here's a laptop

7:06

and off good

7:08

life . So it was like a clean sheet

7:10

of paper . There was no mask . I could literally take

7:13

the mask off . I didn't have to lie , I

7:15

didn't have to fit in and

7:18

it was liberating . So

7:21

that was when you have had to fight for

7:24

acceptance and you couldn't , I

7:26

think , or fight , not be authentic

7:28

and fight for acceptance , I think to just

7:30

to take the filters off and the mask

7:33

off was liberating and continues to

7:35

be . And I think that's my life since I moved to America

7:37

, especially in the latter years . Now is just that now

7:40

I had the luxury to look back

7:42

and think it was really fascinating

7:44

. Our company , the team , did a lifeline

7:46

exercise where you the 10

7:49

major positives and negatives in

7:51

your life . You

7:53

map them on a scale of zero

7:55

to 10 , how stressful were they and what were the impact

7:57

and doing that exercise really

7:59

was because I'm just becoming more vulnerable

8:01

, I'm not too sure the word vulnerable is rich

8:04

too . Very well , or European in general , just

8:07

for context . On that note , I grew up my

8:09

mother , we grew up with the

8:11

stiff upper lip , like you weren't allowed

8:13

to be vulnerable . We were not allowed to talk about our

8:16

emotions . I was never allowed to say I don't fit

8:18

here at school , and my dad , sure as

8:20

hell , made sure that there was no negotiation

8:23

of where you're going to school , regardless of the fact that I

8:25

was not happy . He was very obvious

8:27

I wasn't happy , so there

8:29

was a that's so the lack of

8:31

vulnerability , the inability to make decisions

8:33

and be given the autonomy , regardless of

8:35

how I felt , and I think that's

8:37

a very Britishness , islander thing

8:40

when you're come from a place where

8:42

we're just we've rused

8:44

and battered and survived . So there is us , but

8:47

I don't think that's a good thing For what we're talking

8:49

about today with belonging . You have to

8:51

be vulnerable , you have to be able to speak about what's

8:53

going on inside and also people

8:55

have to listen , to which I had neither

8:57

of those , so just a reflection of that was like

8:59

gosh . It's great to be able

9:01

to reflect , but it's definitely which allows me

9:04

to make sure that my kids don't grow

9:06

up in the same way in which I did and

9:08

they can , in your world , have a feel

9:10

that they belong .

9:12

Yeah , yeah , something

9:14

I'm curious about . So I've actually working

9:16

on the second edition of the book and

9:19

one of the areas that I know I'm continuing

9:22

to dig . In fact , today I was doing some academic

9:24

searches for authenticity

9:26

, trying to find more of like

9:28

how we're defining authenticity . I wanted

9:30

to find it more further and really dig in

9:33

, and because

9:35

this is you exploring and finding that authenticity

9:37

, I'm curious , as you've

9:40

navigated that journey of taking off that

9:42

mask . I would imagine and so

9:44

I'm going to blow this up a little bit I

9:46

would imagine that in that kind of

9:48

pre Alex moving to the States

9:51

, there's a lot of like when

9:53

you're , it's almost

9:55

the reverse of fake it till you make it like

9:57

you're faking it , and so there's a part

10:00

of that becomes you Right

10:03

, and so I'm just curious

10:05

, in that journey , how much of that you

10:08

have ? What have you learned about yourself

10:10

? And then , what have you had to shed ? That actually

10:12

wasn't you .

10:18

I think when you A

10:21

group of friends , number one shedding

10:23

a group of friends that I don't

10:25

think they would I think if they listened

10:27

to this podcast be like what ? So

10:31

there's a group that knows you for that , and

10:33

when you've faked it for so long and

10:35

had to live in the skin of someone that you're not really

10:37

, you're not really is

10:41

it easier to face that or

10:43

just drop it . In that case , a group

10:45

of number of friends that I

10:47

grew up with no longer talked to and

10:50

that was a part of the journey

10:53

the conversations , just the

10:55

conversations that you have to be able to have these

10:58

types of conversations with family members , as I

11:00

have done in recent years , and

11:02

you just get it comes an age

11:04

where or part of your life where

11:06

something happens to where you can just it

11:09

all just starts to come out . Which I'm in

11:11

that stage , but I'm 45

11:13

, so I'd say what , when

11:15

my dad died last year and so this is all very

11:18

recent , so when my dad died , that was the trigger for

11:20

me to truly be me . So

11:22

under his watch , I

11:25

have always been a degree of

11:27

I can't be me . I just can't be the

11:29

Alex . So this is only . That was November

11:31

last year , so we're a year anniversary of me being

11:34

able to shed and really just

11:36

live the real Alex without what's

11:38

my dad gonna think of this , what's my dad gonna think

11:40

of that ? And that's inhibited

11:43

my ability to be true , authentic Alex

11:45

. So that's just a context and moment in

11:47

life and maybe all of us have that

11:49

not quite that , but a trigger

11:51

to which we can those who have had to have

11:54

hid behind something and war

11:56

of mass . There must be a trigger for all of us

11:58

that just allows us to then be

12:00

our true , authentic selves , and for me , that was my

12:02

dad .

12:05

Yeah , that's interesting . So I'm

12:07

gonna compare that to in my experience

12:10

of like , when there's an event that

12:12

lets you drop your guard . So

12:15

in my experience as a gay man , like that has

12:17

been . Like the coming out process

12:19

is that shedding right . I'm sharing something

12:21

with the world . That is the one thing that most people

12:24

might reject me for , and

12:26

so once that's , once you've

12:28

let that go , then you're cool and

12:30

we start to be and explore who I really

12:33

am , and for some people

12:35

they may never have that . Whatever

12:37

, that coming out experience is

12:39

right . And so it seems like you've had a

12:41

couple of layers . So one was coming

12:43

to the states where you could live in a place that

12:46

, like you've shed the

12:48

mass that you had to wear . And then the second piece

12:50

is your father passing , not needing to

12:52

pass whatever you're doing , needing to pass

12:54

this approval . So

12:56

I'm curious what you found that in the past

12:59

year of what's changed for you

13:01

.

13:01

The ability to

13:06

speak my mind links into psychological

13:08

safety ? Maybe it is . I feel

13:10

free of freedom

13:12

of speech . I can

13:14

be able to voice

13:17

exactly how I feel , to

13:19

voice to look back at my life and

13:21

really put it out and go

13:23

. That wasn't cool and

13:25

what happened here . I just think it's free

13:27

. I feel , whatever reason , more

13:30

free than I've ever been to be able

13:32

to speak my mind and be vulnerable

13:35

and open and talk to people about who

13:37

I really am , because I don't

13:39

have to look over my shoulder . Yeah

13:42

there's no police . There's

13:45

no police going to come arrest me and say you

13:47

can't say that

13:50

. So I don't know

13:52

if that is but dad , if it's just age

13:54

and just maturity , but

13:57

whatever it is , I just yeah , I

13:59

have never felt of an

14:01

ability to be true , authentic

14:03

Alex .

14:06

So you've been on this journey , continuing to find

14:09

your own authenticity . I'm

14:12

curious , then . So I want to flip to the other side

14:14

of just the between authenticity and acceptance

14:17

. And flip to the other side how

14:21

have those experiences of needing

14:24

to mask how that impacted the way that

14:26

you approach acceptance with

14:28

others ?

14:29

I think it's as the years have gone

14:31

by , when it comes to this

14:33

side of it and acceptance , I

14:36

always have

14:38

less felt the need to explain

14:41

things about the way I am

14:43

to others and the

14:45

need to . Hey , I went to Shrewsbury

14:47

school and , again , the elements

14:49

of the mask , doesn't ? I

14:51

had created habits and

14:54

processes and just the way I taught

14:56

and there was a need to express

14:58

this as who I am to

15:01

others , and I think that has

15:03

subsided to the point where I don't even feel

15:06

the need to talk about

15:08

that and feel the importance

15:10

of hey , where did you go to school

15:12

or what did you

15:14

do . So just , there's , there's a that used to be

15:16

a thing , maybe it's a British thing , but hey

15:19

, where do you go to school ? There's definitely a class in

15:21

UK . That was a thing , that was a

15:23

habit that I I had , which

15:25

then , of course , in terms of cognitive diversity

15:28

and diversity , it pigeons you when

15:30

you think like that and it's , it becomes

15:32

habit . It just yeah

15:34

, it swayed the

15:36

conversation and now it's again going

15:38

to freedom . It's I don't , I'm

15:41

, I don't have no filter . I

15:43

am there for the other person and my

15:46

ears are far . My ears are bigger than they were before

15:48

Am I

15:50

going down a different path ?

15:52

No , I think that makes sense . I think the

15:55

this idea that your ears are bigger metaphorically

15:57

, I like that , but I also like the

16:00

shifting of

16:02

how you're the

16:04

questions you're asking to almost filter through

16:06

understanding

16:08

who someone is . So that

16:10

, what school did you go to ? It was very common

16:13

and I'm actually relating

16:15

to that , but on the flips side

16:17

and a way that I've navigated that

16:19

when I was early

16:22

in my professional career I hadn't yet

16:24

finished my undergrad , but

16:26

I was working on a team of

16:28

six people . Six out of eight had advanced

16:30

degrees for about unjust undergrad

16:33

. Six out of eight had advanced

16:35

. One of them had their , just their

16:37

undergrad , and then Justin had none

16:39

of that . I had not finished my undergrad yet , and

16:42

so there was a lot of imposter syndrome , and

16:44

there was . It was just automatic

16:46

If you're here , you obviously

16:49

have had have some formal education

16:51

, right , and so it was very common . But where'd

16:53

you go to school ? And

16:55

I would just very plainly answer I

16:57

went to Iowa State because that's where I started

16:59

. I didn't . I never said I finished , I

17:02

didn't say anything else , I just said that's where I went to

17:04

school , because that wasn't a lie

17:06

, but it also wasn't the full

17:08

truth and

17:10

I actually don't talk about that whole journey at

17:12

ton because there's all of the stigma

17:14

that comes around all of that , but

17:17

there's , I can understand that side of

17:19

it right when I'm . When

17:21

someone's asking that question , it is very

17:23

much a qualifier of who are . When do you come

17:25

from ? Did you go to

17:27

a state college or did you go to a private

17:29

college Like Harvard versus

17:32

where I just went to a community college

17:34

? There's going to be a lot of value judgment

17:36

that can come into that

17:38

conversation and

17:41

so I do think , like I'm

17:43

hearing you say that I don't ask someone where they're

17:45

going to school as like a

17:47

small thing , but actually I think it's huge in

17:50

acceptance is finding

17:53

ways to get to know people in

17:56

without

17:58

typical filters .

18:03

Good . So I was on a on the right-ish

18:05

path of acceptance , which is , again

18:07

, less filters , more

18:10

that the bit , the more like

18:13

anything good in life comes from your ability

18:15

to listen , talk less , listen

18:17

more and be curious , which , of

18:19

course , if you have filters and you're again

18:21

, if you're trying to be accepted , I will only

18:23

talk to people from the school or from this

18:26

bucket , whatever that bucket

18:28

is then of course that is a

18:30

problem . The more you're trying

18:32

to fit in and be accepted for

18:35

that , that destroys

18:37

cognitive diversity and cognitive

18:40

thought , because you're just channeling

18:42

into one area which is not good to take

18:44

it for the modern workplace or home

18:46

or anything .

18:48

Yes , so yeah , I think it

18:51

is that shift in your

18:53

perspective on how you're getting

18:55

to know others as a part

18:57

of that acceptance piece .

19:02

Yeah , and I think when you go to an

19:04

elite school I don't know

19:06

, I don't understand the research , but I can only

19:08

imagine just the acceptance piece must

19:10

be huge when you have that

19:12

much privilege . Unless

19:14

I'm sure you put deliberate thought into

19:16

it , it will drive on the authentic

19:19

and acceptance place . I wonder

19:21

what it does on those two spectrums

19:23

, or not just elite school

19:26

, elite sport , elite , anything

19:28

, when you're in the 1% of anything , I'm sure there's

19:30

challenges with both authenticity and

19:32

acceptance .

19:35

Yeah , I think and I'm going to say this anecdotally

19:37

and not based in any

19:39

research , but in my experience

19:42

that elitism

19:44

leads to inauthenticity

19:46

, because we are trying

19:49

to fit this mold of who and

19:51

or . It becomes everything that we are

19:53

Right , like

19:55

you go to an elite school and that's

19:57

like what you lead with , of how you introduce yourself

20:00

, as opposed to okay , cool

20:02

, that's where you went to school , congratulations , like

20:04

what else is interesting about you , right

20:06

. So there's that I'm just going to say anecdotally

20:08

. I have had that experience with individuals

20:10

. And then I think the other piece

20:12

is when you come from that elite perspective

20:15

, you also put

20:20

yourself in a place where others don't

20:22

fit the level that you need to be

20:24

at Right , and

20:27

I'm also I'm saying that claiming

20:30

of any elite place , but

20:32

also the acceptance piece . Over the past year

20:34

, with my therapist , have been working on Justin

20:38

as quick to assess people and

20:40

determine whether or not they fit his

20:43

intellectual level , and then

20:45

it makes decisions from there and I'm

20:47

like breaking that down because that's something that I

20:49

need to deal with at its rest .

20:51

Yeah , fascinating

20:54

yeah .

20:57

So I'm curious , in

20:59

this conversation , in the

21:01

work that you do , what

21:04

are some of the parallels that you might see ?

21:07

The work that we do is . I think , as

21:09

I started the conversation , dx is to

21:11

bring care to the world . But what

21:13

is care ? Care are the human skills that

21:15

gets the hard work done Priority

21:18

, autonomy , relationships and equity , and

21:21

I think a lot of what you're just talking

21:23

about is especially in the A

21:25

and the R and the E . I

21:28

truly believe not much good happen , but

21:31

team , for us to have the time and presence

21:33

to be able to do what we are doing right , having

21:35

a conversation about life

21:37

, about ourselves and all of that , we can be better

21:39

human beings , we can

21:42

be more authentic , we can have more

21:44

acceptance . So just to do that , you

21:46

need time and energy and

21:48

I think that's the biggest problem that we have in this world

21:50

is we don't have the time and energy to be doing

21:52

what we're doing . So see a therapist

21:54

to be introspective , retrospective and

21:56

to think versus do . America

21:59

and much of the world is all about doing

22:01

and we reward the do and if you're doing , you're not

22:04

thinking , and this is what we're talking about . It

22:06

needs thinking and deliverance and intentionality

22:08

. So care is in the

22:10

workplace and in any community , any

22:13

team of humans . With my wife and

22:15

my kids , we're a team . The team

22:17

needs clarity and if it doesn't have clarity

22:19

, it's the opposite of clarity , is fear

22:22

. Fear drives a dark side . If Darth

22:24

Vader comes out and bad things happen , right , we

22:26

can't speak up if we don't have clarity , because

22:29

the opposite of clarity is fear . So we

22:31

need clarity . And if we starve people have clarity

22:33

, bad things happen . Autonomy we need autonomy

22:35

because if you try , the opposite of

22:37

autonomy is control . Who loves

22:39

to be controlled ? Put your hands up . No

22:41

one likes to be controlled . We date this element

22:43

of control , but we don't like to be controlled

22:46

. So we need to give autonomy . We

22:48

use that by using our two ears and asking lots of questions

22:50

and being curious , flexible , adaptable

22:52

Relationships

22:55

the opposite of relationships is silence

22:57

, the opposite of what we're doing right now

23:00

. Right , the inability to be vulnerable and speak

23:02

up is a problem , but that's where relationships

23:04

come from . The opposite of equity is unfairness

23:07

. So for those things , the opposites

23:09

are what stops us from speaking

23:11

up and being able to more than likely

23:14

lead into our true , authentic self . Because I can't

23:16

be vulnerable and speak up , that's

23:18

a problem . So care is a framework

23:20

playbook that we're bringing to the workplace

23:22

for leaders to care for

23:25

their teams and give them the right

23:27

, adept and matched clarity

23:29

, autonomy , relationships and equity , because

23:32

the closer the variance between what a leader gives and what a team

23:34

member needs , the more

23:36

equity is felt . So I think there's a

23:38

direct correlation , because what we're trying to do as a business

23:40

is get leaders to intentionally

23:42

delegate , use their time

23:45

in the right buckets to get

23:47

their team members to speak up and be more comfortable

23:49

about being go figure , vulnerable

23:51

. So I think there's a direct correlation

23:53

between what we're doing . We're trying to help people

23:56

think and help people

23:58

be more authentic by speaking up and being

24:00

vulnerable , like what my journey's been like . It's

24:03

not 45 years long and we can do it in a couple of years

24:05

. That'd be great , because there's a lot of pain in the

24:07

workplace right now . So I think there's a direct

24:09

correlation between our

24:11

work .

24:12

Yeah , I can definitely see the . I

24:16

think your model is very much aimed

24:18

at leadership , right , and

24:20

so that clarity piece is key

24:23

. But if we look at just belonging

24:25

, I think there's the autonomy relates to authenticity

24:28

and the relationships and

24:30

equity relate to acceptance right

24:32

, and because that's how

24:34

we all coexist in a way that

24:37

we get to be ourselves

24:39

, do the work that we enjoy , in

24:41

a way that we enjoy it and

24:43

belong with other . Yeah

24:46

, it was interesting . I wanted to play

24:48

that and see those

24:50

parallels , so thank you for indulging me .

24:54

Dev . No to that last point . My favorite question

24:57

in relationships came

24:59

from a lady called Amarie . In

25:01

a leader's , the question I should

25:04

be . One of the questions I should ask as a leader is

25:06

tell me one thing that I don't know about

25:08

you , but I should . That will help our relationship

25:11

. I think that is a

25:14

great question that creates more

25:16

authenticity and belonging at the same time

25:18

, because if you're open

25:21

and I'm asking you , hey , tell me something I don't

25:23

know about you . That would improve our relationship

25:25

. It's hard . I love that question

25:28

. I use that question . It's amazing what I learn

25:30

about people when that question's asked . So

25:33

yeah , there's a lot of commonality between

25:36

sense of belonging and leaders

25:39

just caring for their people . We should

25:41

make a very good job of it , by the way .

25:43

Yeah , I hear you . I hear you . Alex

25:46

. Thank you so much for joining me . How

25:48

can people find you find out more about

25:50

your work ?

25:52

Just check me out at LinkedIn . These are the ones Alex

25:54

Draper , dx Learning , and you'll see

25:57

this face pop up . There's a newsletter

25:59

on there . Sign up to that . I just put on my own

26:01

vulnerable . The more as a year

26:03

goes by , the more stories come out , as you've

26:05

heard . So , no , that's a great way to learn

26:07

about what we're doing and the work that

26:09

we do . So , yeah , linkedin is probably the best one .

26:12

Great , and I'll make sure we include

26:14

a link in the show notes for

26:16

that . So thank you again

26:18

for joining me today . It's

26:20

been fun to talk to you , as always

26:23

, and everyone . I'll stay tuned

26:25

for another episode of the Creating Building and Podcast

26:27

. Thanks , Alex .

26:28

Thanks for having me , Justin .