0:08

Welcome to another episode of the

0:10

Creating Belonging podcast . Today I

0:12

have with me Nancy Lyons

0:15

. Nancy , if you wouldn't mind just introducing

0:17

yourself .

0:18

Sure , I'm happy to Thanks for having me first

0:20

. So I

0:22

am Nancy Lyons . I live in Minneapolis , minnesota

0:25

, and I am a co-founder and CEO

0:27

of an experienced design and technology

0:30

consultancy called Clockwork

0:32

. I also am a co-founder

0:34

of a low code

0:36

no code agile studio called Tempo

0:39

, and I've written a couple of books

0:41

. I'm a keynote speaker and I'm

0:43

also the . For

0:45

the purpose of this particular podcast

0:48

, I will share that . I'm also a chair emeritus

0:50

for an organization called Family

0:52

Equality , which is the leading national organization

0:55

working for lived and legal equality

0:57

for LGBTQ plus families

0:59

and those that want to form them .

1:03

Great . Thank you , nancy , and

1:05

most of our listeners are used to

1:07

us kind of starting the conversation

1:09

with just disclosure of identities

1:12

, so I want to take a moment and to

1:14

see if there are any identities that you'd like to share

1:16

to anchor us in our conversation

1:18

.

1:19

Sure Thanks for asking . Well , my

1:21

pronouns are she , her

1:23

, they , them . And I

1:25

am a queer

1:27

, a woman , I

1:29

am white , I am a mother , I

1:32

am a spouse , I'm

1:34

also a badass .

1:38

Okay , I love the some

1:40

of the random identities that come up . I'm

1:43

like badass , like I is

1:46

. I love that as an identity . I

1:49

got to add that to the list of excellent

1:51

. Well

1:53

, so , as Nancy and I

1:55

were just chatting before we were getting started

1:57

and I'm excited to dive

1:59

into this conversation we were talking

2:01

about the creating the longing model , and

2:03

Nancy was sharing an experience that she had

2:05

had with a number of

2:07

years back when she

2:09

was going into another organization , I believe , doing

2:12

some consulting , and so

2:14

I would love to kind of dig into

2:16

that story . If you wouldn't share it , let's start

2:18

there and then see where we go .

2:20

Sure , sure . Well , yeah , it

2:22

was an organization that I actually worked inside

2:24

of and I

2:26

had become , I'd sort of worked my way up the

2:28

ranks and this was sort of my early managerial

2:31

career , if you will , and I was

2:33

learning how to lead people right

2:36

, and a lot of it was pretty organic . There wasn't

2:38

. You know , we were young and it was a technology

2:40

company and it was in the 90s , and

2:43

what we knew at the time was

2:45

we wanted to be values driven and

2:47

we wanted to bring our authentic selves and we

2:49

wanted people to have a different

2:51

experience with this organization than they had

2:53

had in other workplaces . In other

2:55

words , we wanted them to feel free to bring their whole

2:57

selves and , to you

2:59

know , bring their authentic selves . And

3:02

we wanted and this was before the language

3:04

of belonging was really in play

3:07

. So we were working really

3:09

hard to create our

3:11

own language , but also to make a space

3:13

that was open to people

3:16

of . You

3:18

know , I don't even think we the language of diversity

3:20

was was existed

3:23

at that point in time . I don't think there certainly

3:25

wasn't a real

3:27

effort to create

3:30

belonging , but the reality was

3:32

that's what we were trying to create . So

3:35

in doing that , I think we all sort

3:37

of coalesced around a shared set of very

3:39

progressive values . Right , we

3:41

were , you know , we didn't have a dress

3:43

code . It was a technology company . We made

3:45

software and websites in the early days

3:47

of software , internet software and websites

3:50

. So we didn't have a dress code , we

3:52

didn't really have a starter end time . It was

3:54

really results oriented . We were remote

3:56

before remote was even a conversation in

3:59

the technology space . We let people

4:01

sort of build their own schedules

4:03

, benefit from flexibility

4:05

, bring their sort of , you

4:08

know , experiences , and you know , for me

4:10

as a , as a queer woman , it

4:12

was really important for me to be able to be

4:14

out and safe , right , and so we

4:17

wanted that for everyone else too

4:19

, and we believe that that's

4:21

what we were creating . And I had this experience

4:25

with a colleague who was just

4:27

really a gifted engineer , and

4:29

this was one of those moments that I will

4:32

never forget . I'm very outgoing

4:34

, I'm very talkative . He is an engineer

4:36

who likes to be in quiet spaces in

4:38

the dark , and we were somehow paired together

4:40

to drive to Iowa to deliver

4:43

a pitch to an agricultural organization

4:45

, and it was in that

4:47

six hour drive in the car . You

4:50

know where we were , where we were being

4:52

inundated with the smell of turkey farming

4:55

. It was thrilling . I

4:57

remember thinking , I remember saying out loud like

4:59

what is that ? It's horrible . And

5:02

interestingly enough , we also enjoyed a

5:04

couple of fun little side

5:06

trips , little field trips on

5:08

the way back . After we had this moment

5:10

that I'm about to share with you , we were suddenly

5:12

so comfortable with each other that we stopped at one

5:14

of those either

5:16

sort of living museums . You

5:18

know the Homestead Farmstead Living

5:20

Museum . And we

5:22

weren't friends , we weren't close , we barely knew each

5:25

other . We worked together and he

5:27

was very quiet . But this

5:29

moment that I'm about to share actually

5:31

brought us closer to the

5:33

point where we were taking pictures of each other standing

5:36

, you know , in an old farmhouse next to somebody dressed

5:38

up like Laura Ingalls Wilder . But

5:41

the moment itself was tense and I

5:43

realized , you

5:46

know , sort of my own failing or my own

5:48

tunnel vision , because my colleague

5:51

was telling me

5:53

how much he appreciated the

5:56

place where we both worked

5:58

, but that he was

6:00

feeling confused and

6:02

sort of well , marginalized

6:05

. And what he revealed was

6:07

, while we were so busy

6:09

trying to create this safe space for everyone

6:12

, he was feeling like

6:14

it wasn't okay for him to be a

6:17

Christian , a person of faith , and

6:19

that it wasn't okay for him to acknowledge

6:24

that to . You

6:26

know , share any of his sort

6:29

of faith based interests

6:31

. You know a lot of people find community in their churches

6:34

. He didn't feel safe talking about his church

6:36

. A lot of people find , you know , enjoy

6:38

their family in the context of church

6:40

or their faith . A lot of people

6:42

, you know there's

6:45

so much that Christianity does to influence

6:47

how we , how , how a Christian

6:49

lives , and what he was trying to

6:51

explain to me was there was just no

6:53

room for that . And I have

6:56

to admit and I've already

6:58

admitted to you that it was a stunning

7:00

revelation for me , because here

7:02

I thought I was working hard to make

7:05

space for everybody and

7:08

in fact I was making

7:10

space for a lot of people

7:12

that were perhaps usually

7:15

marginalized or kept out of those

7:17

conversations that lead to

7:19

belonging . But

7:23

in doing so I

7:25

was marginalizing my white

7:27

Christian colleague and

7:30

it made me feel lousy , mostly because

7:33

I really felt

7:35

committed to

7:37

that purpose , like in my mind

7:40

. He should have felt

7:42

safe , being a person of faith

7:44

, in the

7:46

environment we were creating together . He should have

7:49

felt okay and

7:51

I actually had a lot of admiration for him for

7:54

saying it and not just sort of tamping it

8:02

down and letting his masculinity sort

8:04

of drive the conversation

8:07

and express himself

8:09

as not being afraid of anything . I think

8:11

that was the option that certainly where a lot of people

8:14

would have gone . You know I'm tough , I'm a leader

8:16

, I can manage this , it's not important

8:18

. But clearly his faith was so important to him

8:20

that he found a

8:22

moment where it was essential

8:25

for him to share that and

8:28

I think in that moment you and I were talking about

8:30

that concept of being overbearing

8:32

, and

8:35

I realized , as you were talking

8:37

, that that's exactly what I was

8:39

, and I believed that we all saw the world the

8:41

same way and that we were all operating under

8:43

the same set of assumptions , and

8:45

because of that , I made no room for this man

8:48

and whomever else

8:50

identified in a similar way

8:52

with him on

8:54

our staff .

8:56

Yeah , nancy , thank you for sharing that . I think

8:59

it's interesting because it really drives

9:01

home the point that

9:04

there's some research that I

9:06

reference in the book around

9:08

traditional

9:10

approaches to DEIB . And you're talking about

9:12

a time before

9:15

those letters existed

9:17

and I mean , I definitely remember

9:19

when I started the work it was just diversity

9:21

and that was in the 2000s

9:24

and so

9:26

, yeah , the DEIB wasn't in

9:28

that lexicon back then . But

9:31

as we look at the research and the typical approaches

9:33

and some of the challenges , that

9:37

kind of multicultural approach which is

9:39

much more common today

9:41

, where differences are celebrated

9:44

, non-marginalized individuals are celebrated

9:47

, which is great , it is

9:49

off-putting or makes others

9:53

feel marginalized who

9:55

aren't typically marginalized . And

10:01

it's interesting because for me the biggest thing is

10:03

like and I don't know how many

10:05

times I say this whenever I reference that work it's

10:07

not that I have a problem with making white

10:10

men uncomfortable , including

10:12

myself but

10:14

the problem is that they're

10:18

often the people that we need to get

10:20

on board to help make room

10:22

for everyone and

10:25

ensure that our

10:27

inclusion and belonging efforts

10:29

are actually working . So

10:31

it's interesting . I'm

10:35

curious to dig into that a little

10:37

bit more . What else did he share

10:40

in that conversation that made

10:43

him feel othered

10:47

or marginalized ?

10:50

Well , I do think that

10:52

because

10:55

the time was the 90s , the late 90s

10:57

. I'm

10:59

aging myself here , but we were all very

11:01

young . We were typical Gen Xers

11:03

. We looked like

11:06

we were out of a movie , like a Winona

11:08

writer Ethan Hawke will be right

11:10

Like reality bites . We were all wearing our flannel

11:12

and our jeans . We were non-conformist . We

11:14

were going to make change . In

11:17

some ways , we were

11:19

rejecting the establishment . I

11:22

think what he represented

11:24

for himself

11:27

in the context of all that was

11:29

exactly what we were rejecting . It

11:32

was interesting because he was a pretty shy guy

11:34

. He wasn't terribly

11:37

, the conversation wasn't really lengthy

11:41

, he

11:44

didn't spend a lot of time emoting

11:46

, he was very direct

11:48

. When I think about it I'm

11:50

not naming this person for a variety

11:53

of reasons but when you think about it over time

11:55

, what I've realized is that he

11:58

, too , probably lived

12:01

in the context of a number of identities , one

12:05

of which may have been neurodivergent , because

12:07

the way that he expressed

12:09

this and I'm not trying to diagnose

12:11

somebody that I'm not close to , but

12:14

the way that he expressed it was so matter of

12:16

fact and so direct

12:18

and so lacking

12:20

in additional details

12:24

that I wish I could answer that question

12:26

in a thrilling way for you . What

12:29

he said was pretty point blank

12:31

. It was I don't feel safe being Christian

12:33

. I don't think you all

12:35

think about those

12:39

people in your midst that

12:43

have values that are

12:45

different from yours To

12:48

me . Here's the thing I don't think values

12:51

. I think values

12:53

are something that we can share

12:55

, regardless of our identities . For

12:59

me , you can be a Christian and

13:01

I am a person of faith , probably

13:03

more on the agnostic side

13:06

, just because I think there's no way . This all

13:08

just . I believe in science , but

13:10

I also believe science may have come from . We don't

13:13

need to get into me . My point

13:15

is I

13:17

believe that people who don't believe in

13:19

Christianity can also live

13:21

by a moral code that resembles

13:24

I'm going

13:27

to tread lightly here the good

13:30

side of Christian morality

13:32

, not the judgmental

13:35

, I don't

13:38

know . Not the judgmental , difficult

13:40

side that sometimes I witness

13:42

in the world the

13:44

condemnation , the

13:46

hellfire and damnation . But

13:49

the teachings of Jesus are

13:52

really the ideal moral code , whether

13:54

you believe in Jesus as the Son of God or Jesus

13:56

as a prophet or a man walking

13:59

the earth

14:01

. This idea that we should love each other as

14:04

we love ourselves , that we should do right by

14:06

our neighbor , that

14:08

we shouldn't harm others or

14:10

be selfish , that we should share

14:13

and care for one another . My God

14:15

, my God , I

14:17

mean , there's no reason for

14:19

us not to be able to subscribe to a moral code

14:21

that looks like that . So

14:25

it was interesting to me that he

14:27

was actually speaking of values and

14:29

suggesting that we didn't share them

14:31

, when in fact , I think

14:33

part of the reason why I was so deluded

14:35

at the time is because I

14:38

guess I thought we all just want

14:40

to care for each other , we all just want to collaborate

14:42

and share , we all just want to make space

14:44

for one another , we all want to feel safe

14:46

at work , and there was something about

14:49

his Christianity that he didn't articulate

14:51

in that moment that

14:53

made him feel like it

14:56

wasn't safe . Now I will say we had very vocal

14:58

and this was also before HR

15:01

was terribly advanced and

15:04

caught up to the current cultural conversation

15:06

we had very vocal people

15:09

who condemned Christianity at

15:11

the time in a hateful

15:13

way , but just in a dismissive

15:15

way , and so I'm sure

15:17

that someone actually said

15:19

something around

15:22

him that made him feel

15:24

small and I think that may have been

15:26

what he was reacting to and , like

15:28

I said , I think it was a super brave thing for him

15:30

to bring up and it was something that I was able

15:32

to address in a more covert

15:35

way when I got home . It wasn't like I was like we're going to

15:37

love Christians , now let's make space

15:39

for the Christians , but I was able to

15:42

speak to the leadership team

15:44

and the rest of the staff in a different setting

15:47

, just about our need

15:49

to really expand our

15:52

definition of inclusion , what

15:55

that can't just be people that agree with us , and

15:58

actually I think that's what the world is suffering from right

16:00

now . Right , like we want to be inclusive

16:02

only if we all

16:04

feel the same way about how things work . No-transcript

16:09

, it's not possible .

16:11

Yeah , oh , my gosh , okay , there's so many directions

16:13

I want to go . Sorry , I'm

16:16

going to start with values , because

16:18

I

16:21

know I've told this story several times and maybe even on the podcast

16:23

, but I'm going to share it with you , kind of in the context of this , because I

16:25

think it's meaningful . So several

16:28

years ago , in my work of diversity

16:30

, I worked for a very large

16:32

global organization and

16:36

so diversity there is , like we're , literally in

16:38

many , many countries . So

16:40

let's start with the fact that we are , by

16:43

nature , a very diverse organization

16:45

and very culturally diverse . Anyway

16:47

, I ended a session

16:49

on diversity when the message was about

16:51

holding people

16:54

in a place of acceptance and

16:56

appreciation and that tolerance

16:59

is not enough , that

17:01

if you ever felt tolerated , that's just not actually

17:04

a great feeling . And

17:06

there was a woman who came up to me after the session

17:08

and very unironically

17:10

said Justin , my

17:14

faith tells me that I can't

17:16

accept gay

17:19

people . And

17:22

so you're telling me that the organization

17:24

is telling me that I need to accept gay

17:26

people , but my faith tells me that I

17:28

can't and

17:31

in front of me which

17:33

I love the irony and of course , have to conjure

17:36

up all kinds of strength in that moment of like

17:38

. Okay , well , let's

17:40

have the right conversation

17:42

here and calmly . And

17:45

I did say look , it sounds like

17:47

your values may not align

17:49

with the values of your employer and

17:53

you may need to evaluate that

17:55

and choose whether you want to

17:57

work for an employer

17:59

that has values that don't align with

18:02

yours . The

18:04

interesting part of that and this is going to dovetail

18:06

into what you were saying of that kind of general moral

18:09

code is I'm like I

18:11

actually I don't think if

18:13

, if of the Christian faith

18:15

. I don't think anybody said don't

18:17

accept gay people . You can

18:19

interpret . I'm not going to debate like

18:21

interpret 5000 ways of the scripture

18:23

, of whether it's right or wrong . However

18:25

, there are some specific things that

18:28

I understand about the Christian

18:30

faith that are like love others as

18:32

yourself , except everyone , just

18:35

much , no one , like all of those

18:37

kinds of things that don't

18:40

line up right . So I

18:42

just think it's interesting . Anyway , I'm going to pause there and

18:44

get some great questions .

18:46

Yeah , you know , actually , if I , if

18:48

I may , I'd like to share another really interesting

18:51

story in it and it and it and it

18:53

touches on what you just said , and

18:56

it and it and it also speaks to my own evolution

18:58

as a leader . So , cut to later

19:01

, in the 2000s , when

19:03

I was a co , I'd be , I

19:05

was a co founder of the company that I am the CEO

19:07

of . Now We've

19:10

been around a long time I think that's the story you're

19:12

hearing . So have I

19:14

ancient and

19:17

I had really worked hard to make

19:19

space for people that

19:21

had , you know , different

19:24

opinions and different belief systems

19:26

from me , from us

19:28

, and

19:31

, and I , and over the years , at

19:33

this point I had had some really interesting conversations

19:35

with other folks of faith

19:37

who were deeply enmeshed in

19:39

, you know , doc

19:41

, dogma and

19:44

and religion and communities

19:46

of religion , and

19:48

and enjoyed those conversations . And

19:51

I had a young man who had started

19:54

with us . I think if he didn't

19:56

start as an intern , he

19:58

started as a , as a

20:00

very junior level front

20:02

end engineer , slash designer

20:05

, and

20:07

he and I had become you

20:09

know , it's so different from now , because

20:12

it was so early in our in

20:15

our story that I had relationships

20:17

with everybody and now I

20:20

don't . I don't work on the delivery

20:22

side of the business , so it's so different to even

20:24

think about this and

20:27

this story is probably going to stun folks that I work

20:29

with too . And

20:31

he and I had an opportunity to get to know each other a little

20:34

. We had done some of our one on ones and

20:36

I'm a very approachable person . Once

20:38

you get to know me , people tell me all the time oh , you scare

20:40

me . It's like cool . But

20:44

you know , whatever I can't do anything about it . This

20:46

I'm big , that's my , that's my personality , that's

20:48

what it is . But this young man

20:50

had gotten to a

20:52

place where he felt comfortable enough to

20:55

approach me and I always encourage . I have this open

20:57

door . You can direct message me anytime

20:59

. We can have any conversation you want , if there's you

21:02

know , if you need counsel or mentoring or you

21:04

have criticism or feedback , I'm open

21:06

, right , and this fellow

21:09

. We were all sort of working on a tight deadline

21:12

. It was , it was nighttime , we were all in our homes

21:14

and this was when I don't

21:16

know if we were using like IRC . It was before Slack

21:18

, it was before Slack days and we

21:20

were using some direct messaging application

21:22

. He messaged me and

21:25

I opened the message and he said I

21:27

you know what , I don't want to fight about

21:29

you , but how do you feel about the fact that you're going to help ? And

21:34

it was like like I'm

21:36

, I'm the CEO and he

21:38

is the newest hire at the junior

21:40

risk level and you

21:43

know , in any other , in any other organization

21:45

, that would be problematic . So I was proud

21:47

that it wasn't in my own . You

21:50

know that I mean , I've never . I can

21:52

honestly say , regardless of

21:54

my personal feelings or my personal relationships

21:56

inside of the organization there've only

21:58

been one or two times where I have

22:00

really given myself grief

22:03

for treating somebody unfairly . But for

22:05

the most part I really work not

22:08

to treat anybody unfair or to operate

22:10

out of taking

22:12

something personally . I can't say that I don't operate

22:15

from emotion . So he asked me how

22:17

I felt about going to hell and I thought

22:19

about it a minute and I remembered I had this mentor

22:21

who was also a person

22:24

of faith and he

22:26

and I had had a conversation and he shared

22:28

, you know , this

22:31

little bit of wisdom with me

22:33

that I then shared with this young man and

22:35

I said you know , I said I

22:38

don't profess to being capable of speaking

22:40

for God . I sometimes worry about people

22:43

who are , and

22:45

I certainly don't take aspects of the Bible

22:47

literally , because it has

22:49

been through so much

22:51

and so many translations and

22:53

so many writings and rewritings , and let's not

22:55

even start with the origins and why

22:57

it was written in the first place . But

23:00

what I do know is that

23:02

when Christ was asked what

23:04

what God really wants

23:06

from us , he really

23:09

wants from us , he

23:12

said simply to love God

23:14

and love each other . And

23:17

I know that I do that . I

23:19

know that I am showing up for the thing that

23:21

Christ said God

23:24

cares about the most , and

23:26

when I think about God , I may not

23:28

think about the same being that

23:31

you do , but God also said we are

23:33

made in His image . So

23:36

, taking a page from your

23:38

scripture , if I love

23:41

people , if I

23:43

truly care for people

23:45

, I am doing what your God

23:47

is asking of me and

23:50

I don't feel

23:52

like that God is

23:55

going to condemn me to

23:57

torment , because

23:59

I do genuinely care

24:01

about people and I do work to

24:03

help those that are less fortunate

24:06

than me or to work to

24:08

create spaces where marginalized

24:11

people can exist freely

24:13

and openly . I

24:17

do work to be a decent employer , a decent

24:19

human . I'm not a greedy

24:21

white lady , and

24:24

he really accepted

24:26

that . I think it really threw

24:29

Him off . He was hoping to challenge

24:31

me and I think he didn't

24:33

know how to respond to it , and

24:36

we actually became very close and are still in touch

24:38

to this day . He no longer works with us . He's

24:40

now a leader in his own right In a company . I actually

24:42

saw a picture of Him recently . He's bald that's

24:44

how old I am . I have a young man

24:47

who has grown up and is now bald on

24:49

my network , but

24:52

I was glad to have that response

24:55

for him and

24:58

it's helped inform how I respond to

25:00

other people that ask equally

25:02

as difficult

25:04

questions relative to

25:06

their Christianity .

25:08

Yeah , it's such a great response

25:11

and it

25:13

also just makes me think of

25:15

the individual who initiated

25:17

that conversation , like what's the objective

25:19

? Is

25:22

the objective to have an argument or is the objective

25:24

to convert you to something ? I

25:30

love your response and I love how that

25:34

landed .

25:35

Yeah , I mean

25:37

, he's actually a really lovely guy . He

25:42

was so young and so

25:44

influenced by his parents and his

25:46

church , and so

25:48

I

25:50

don't think he'd gotten to a point where critical thinking

25:53

was part of his resume , if

25:55

you will . I

25:58

think he's matured and

26:01

I doubt that he would ever ask a CEO

26:03

of a company that question again . But

26:06

we have great respect for each other and he is still

26:09

a fine Christian man

26:11

that I

26:13

think he's a lovely guy . But I do think

26:15

to your question was

26:17

he trying to have a fight ? I actually think he was worried

26:19

about me . I think that was it . I think

26:21

it was such a you wanted to challenge

26:23

me , but I think he was worried about me . He was worried about

26:25

my soul , and I

26:28

hope that what I said to him made

26:30

him realize that my soul is not for him

26:32

to worry about .

26:34

Yeah , yeah .

26:36

This is not where I thought our conversation was going to go

26:38

. By the way , this is fast . I talked more about Christianity

26:41

today than I have in the last 10

26:43

years . We're welcome .

26:45

So I love it , though I love it because

26:47

about

26:49

two months ago so I'm

26:53

working on the second edition of the book and

26:55

I'm thinking about what are the chapters I'm adding

26:57

, what's the research I want to add ? And

27:00

it is not in

27:02

the outline yet and I'm not sure I'm

27:04

committed to or would put it in . But

27:07

I've thought about a religion

27:09

chapter , creating belonging and religion

27:12

, because so

27:15

much exclusion happens

27:18

in the name of religion

27:20

. And I'm not saying that

27:22

all religions are exclusive , but I am

27:24

saying exclusion happens in the

27:26

name of religion . And

27:29

you know

27:31

, if you look at the religion that I'm most familiar

27:33

with , being in Christianity , I'm

27:36

like , yeah , just like you say , like

27:38

, actually , if

27:40

we're really examining it , that's

27:44

not like we need to be inclusive , that's

27:46

what , right , that's what we're told

27:48

. So , really

27:50

examining that , but like I'm

27:54

just putting it

27:56

there that I've entertained it , but it seems

27:58

like a really deep rabbit hole .

28:01

Yeah , that would be quite the quagmire , and

28:03

yet I love the idea of it . I

28:06

do Because I think religion is being

28:08

weaponized and at its core

28:10

, you know , there's

28:12

nothing wrong with faith . You know , faith

28:15

is what has gotten us through generations

28:17

of trauma , you

28:19

know , for many people

28:21

, not all , and so

28:23

I think if we could find a way to

28:26

find each other in

28:28

spite of , and through

28:30

and with our faith , I

28:34

think that would be phenomenal

28:36

. I mean , think about it right now Our government

28:38

is weaponizing religion , and

28:41

religion is weaponizing our government

28:43

against , you know , a

28:45

huge faction of the population

28:47

, and it's really

28:50

troubling and unfortunate

28:52

. It's unfortunate . You know I

28:54

was raised in an Irish Catholic family . My

28:58

mother converted from baptism

29:00

. My grandma didn't care that I was

29:02

gay but she was really upset that my mom

29:04

went from Baptist to Catholicism

29:08

. And

29:12

at our core we all , you know I

29:14

would go to the Baptist church when I visited my

29:17

grandmother . We all at

29:20

our core , the message , the values

29:22

, the ways of being

29:24

, you know the expectations , are so similar

29:27

. I mean there's much more ritual and money , quite frankly

29:29

, in the Catholic church Don't get me started , but

29:31

you know , at its

29:34

core my grandmother was a deeply

29:36

loving , you know , god-fearing

29:39

but generous , caring

29:41

human being . And

29:45

you know my parents

29:47

were decent human beings too , or

29:49

are decent . One of them are

29:52

and were , and

29:56

I think a lot of it came from how they felt

29:58

about their faith . But

30:00

I couldn't subscribe because the , you

30:05

know , the institution didn't want me and

30:08

then I became a more critical thinker

30:10

as a result .

30:12

Yeah , yeah , yeah

30:15

, I've talked a bit about my evolution

30:17

as well , over

30:20

well , for three years in the work

30:22

, so I'll say that those

30:24

times , but

30:26

I think so to close

30:28

this out . Actually , I just want to grab

30:31

this like interesting

30:35

parallel of because

30:37

I'm always talking back to the model that's

30:40

the best model and it's so interesting

30:42

of like actually , in

30:44

what your response

30:47

to that employee

30:49

was we are

30:51

made in his image and so we are a celebration

30:53

of God , right , and so if we think about

30:56

authenticity in

30:59

showing up as ourselves and

31:01

loving ourselves as

31:03

being made in his own

31:05

image and

31:08

loving others being

31:11

ex-ex-ex , that's

31:14

it . That's the creating , the learning model .

31:16

That's everything .

31:17

I mean , maybe it all goes

31:20

back to my roots of like , my

31:23

like . How would you call it

31:26

? Oh my gosh , no one can

31:28

think of it Like

31:31

confirmation .

31:32

Oh , confirmation sure .

31:34

Yeah .

31:34

Yeah , yeah , yeah

31:37

. The seeds were planted

31:39

, yeah look , the essence

31:41

of all of it , the essence of faith , the

31:44

essence of spirituality

31:46

, is good and whole and decent

31:48

. It's people who have corrupted

31:50

and weaponized those things

31:53

, but I think what you just said

31:55

is the reason I am on

31:57

this earth .

31:58

Yeah , yes , absolutely

32:01

Me too .

32:03

I love it . We're gonna have to . Okay , we're gonna meet in person

32:05

.

32:06

I know we definitely will meet in person . Yeah

32:08

, and I love . I

32:11

love where this conversation went today . Totally

32:13

not what I expected on this Tuesday

32:16

afternoon , but it's

32:18

still amazing . Nancy

32:20

, real quick before we close out

32:23

. How can people find you

32:25

and get in touch with you ?

32:26

Oh well , easy . I have a website . My

32:29

personal website for my speaking in my books

32:31

is NancyLionscom . Super

32:34

easy , l-y-o-n-s . You can find my

32:36

company , clockwork , at Clockworkcom . You

32:38

can find Tempo at MadeByTempocom

32:41

and you can find me on all the socials

32:43

at Nylons . That's

32:46

because I've been on there a really long time and my

32:48

name is Nancy Lions and Anne Lions . Everybody saw

32:50

Nylons so I used it , but now the young people don't even know

32:53

what Nylons are , so that's a whole other podcast

32:55

.

32:59

There's this great Gen X meme that I've seen

33:01

recently . That is something like Regret

33:04

is your first screen names

33:06

on the internet . Absolutely , Absolutely

33:08

.

33:12

Yes , that's a good one . I gotta find it

33:14

.

33:15

Oh , great , well , Nancy , thank you so much for

33:17

the time today . I really appreciate it . And

33:21

, renelle , stay tuned for another episode of

33:23

the Creating Blowing Podcast . Thanks , thanks

33:26

for having me .