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in all states. I

2:40

had breast cancer and it was

2:42

in my lymphatic system, so

2:44

I had to go through a

2:46

pretty strong regimen of chemotherapy

2:48

and radiation therapy. I

2:51

think anybody who gets a life -threatening

2:53

disease like cancer, it's a very

2:55

fearful time of your life. You

2:57

know, it's learning how much it's

2:59

spread. And I remember one day

3:01

saying to my doctor, I says, I can't

3:04

do this anymore. You know, I just,

3:06

I couldn't get off the couch. I couldn't

3:08

do anything. And

3:10

I got to that point where

3:12

I understood, you know, why

3:14

end of life is the end

3:16

of life, right? It's really hard to carry

3:18

on sometimes. And my doctor,

3:20

Dr. Malpass said to me, he said, Suzanne,

3:23

just hang on because this next drug,

3:25

you'll feel better. And that

3:27

was taxal, paclitaxal, which is

3:29

derived from the Pacific U

3:31

tree. and these

3:33

trees grow all around me in the forest

3:36

around me and so then I started

3:38

it and I did start to feel better.

3:41

At the same time I was making

3:43

friends with my other chemo

3:45

buddies. We're all really good

3:48

friends still and we all

3:50

had double mastectomies and we all

3:52

had this treatment. So

3:54

it was the togetherness with the

3:56

tree, it was the togetherness with

3:58

my friends and then my children too

4:00

and I used to take my children out

4:02

to the forest just when I was you

4:04

know in that part of the treatment I

4:06

could hardly walk I was so exhausted but

4:09

we would go to the yew trees and

4:11

we would just sit around them and thank

4:13

them. You

4:15

know those living creatures were such an

4:17

important part of my life then and

4:19

my children's life and it gave us

4:21

all so much hope and I got

4:23

through it. I'm

4:33

Dacher Keltner, and you're listening to the

4:35

Science of Happiness. Today

4:38

we're revisiting one of our

4:40

favorite episodes with Dr. Suzanne Simard,

4:43

an ecologist who has spent decades studying

4:45

the life of trees. Suzanne

4:47

shares how trees, especially

4:49

the Pacific U tree, played

4:51

a profound role in her own

4:53

healing during a life -changing time.

4:56

And she also shares her research

4:58

on how trees communicate and collaborate

5:00

with each other. challenging everything we

5:02

thought we knew about the natural

5:04

world. It's a beautiful reminder

5:06

of the deep connection between

5:08

all living things. As you'll

5:11

hear, trees aren't just sources of oxygen.

5:13

They can be sources of hope and

5:15

healing. More

5:17

after this break. CNN's

5:27

chief medical correspondent brings you the

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secrets of the happiest and healthiest

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waiting. I'm

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Dacher Keltner. Welcome back to the

8:16

Science of Happiness. Dr. Suzanne

8:18

Simard is a professor of forest

8:20

ecology at the University of British Columbia

8:22

and the author of Finding the

8:24

Mother Tree, Discovering the Wisdom of the

8:26

Forest. She joins us to

8:28

share more about what we can learn

8:31

from the neural networks of forests, evolution

8:33

and cooperation, and how trees

8:35

are a fundamental solution to the climate

8:37

crises we are facing today. Suzanne,

8:39

I want to thank you for taking a few minutes

8:41

out of your busy schedule to join us on the Science

8:43

of Happiness. Oh, it's my pleasure.

8:45

Thanks for having me. When I read your

8:47

book, I thought a lot about, in

8:49

some sense, Charles Darwin, who just loved being

8:51

out in nature. And I'm curious what

8:53

drew you first to studying the relationships between

8:55

trees and plants and then humans. Yeah,

8:58

I grew up in a logging family,

9:00

a horse logging family. I mean, I

9:02

grew up in these old growth forests

9:04

that we call the Inland Rainforest in

9:06

British Columbia. These are like the iconic

9:08

old growth forests with huge cedars and

9:10

huge hemlocks and Devil's Club that is

9:12

two meters tall and Scott Caboos just

9:14

tall as you are. And yeah, so

9:16

that's how I grew up. And so

9:18

I guess it was a natural. And

9:21

although, you know, when I was a

9:23

teenager, I didn't even know what forestry

9:25

was, although I grew up in this.

9:27

forestry family. It was a logging family,

9:29

but I eventually stumbled into it. What

9:32

was it like as a young child just

9:34

growing up in a forest of old growth trees?

9:37

There were forests all around. So

9:39

that was our playground. So building

9:41

forts and tree forts and rafts

9:43

and taking our rafts to the

9:46

next bay in this huge lake

9:48

that my grandparents lived at. We

9:50

were wild kids, I guess. I

9:53

learned a ton, even just absorbing

9:55

it, not even realizing it. You

9:57

know, your book, Finding the Mother Tree,

9:59

Discovering the Wisdom of the Forest, truly

10:01

like great science and great books changed

10:03

how I relate to the world. And

10:05

I'm curious, the mother tree is at

10:07

the heart of the book and your

10:10

research. What are mother trees? They're

10:12

just the biggest oldest trees in

10:14

the forest. So, you know, they're the

10:16

ones that stick above the canopy. And

10:18

the reason that they're so important

10:20

is they have these huge massive

10:22

root systems that mirror their huge

10:24

massive crowns. And those root systems

10:27

have many points of contact where

10:29

they form a symbiosis with a

10:31

mycorrhizal fungus that in all trees

10:33

all over the world do this.

10:35

All of the trees in the

10:37

forest do. But these big old

10:39

trees are highly connected just because

10:41

they're so massive and these massive

10:43

root systems. And so they're the

10:45

hubs of what we call neurological

10:47

networks. As we experimented with what

10:49

these networks do, we found that,

10:51

of course, they link to all

10:53

the other trees and they convey

10:55

information and resources. And even to

10:57

seedlings that are regenerating around these

10:59

old trees, they nurture these seedlings

11:01

the networks. And so that's what

11:03

led us to calling them mother

11:05

trees. When I think about

11:07

human communication, we have these sophisticated languages

11:09

of the voice and symbolic representation

11:11

and the face and the body and

11:14

its process through a brain. And

11:16

maybe you could think about culture as

11:18

this neurological network in some sense.

11:20

How does it work with trees? Trees

11:23

do have these myriad ways to

11:25

communicate just like as you mentioned that

11:27

humans we can see our faces

11:29

we have body language we have the

11:31

spoken language and you know trees

11:33

have these multiple ways of communicating as

11:35

well and you know the English

11:37

language doesn't describe that very well. The

11:40

English language is so focused on

11:42

ourselves, the human being, that we

11:44

lack in words to describe these

11:46

incredible interconnections in nature. And I

11:48

have to say that in studying

11:51

with the Aboriginal people of North

11:53

America, I realize now, or

11:55

I know now from talking to

11:57

them that their ancient languages had

11:59

words for these phenomenon, whereas the

12:01

English language is very human -centric. You

12:05

mentioned Darwin at first

12:07

and you know Darwinianism. and

12:09

competition and competitive exclusion and

12:11

speciation really took hold, not

12:13

just in evolutionary ecology, but

12:15

also ecology. And

12:17

then the application of ecology in

12:19

forests is forestry. And

12:22

agriculture also took competition as the

12:24

dominant, in fact, the only

12:26

important interaction or way that trees

12:28

and plants interact or communicate

12:30

with each other, basically trying to

12:32

get the most resources for

12:34

themselves. And this led to

12:37

force practices that really focused on

12:39

that competition. And what I learned

12:41

was that actually that trees don't

12:43

just come in, they collaborate to

12:45

and they, even as they're shading

12:47

their neighbors, they're sending resources like

12:49

carbon and nutrients and water. And

12:51

then later we found out, you

12:53

know, in our recent studies that

12:55

they don't just convey or they

12:57

don't just communicate via resource redistribution,

12:59

but in information as well. So

13:01

information like, you know, whether or

13:03

not, you know, the donor or

13:05

the recipient of that information is

13:08

weak or strong, you know, highly

13:10

rich in nitrogen or weak in nitrogen

13:12

or low in nitrogen. I have

13:14

to ask you about a couple of findings that blew

13:16

my mind. One back to

13:18

communication is how a Douglas

13:20

fir tree that had been

13:22

injured actually warned a different

13:24

species of ponderosa pine of

13:26

danger. Yeah. How's that work? you

13:29

know, as climate is changing, ponderous

13:31

opine in theory will replace Douglas

13:33

fir at lower elevations or moving up

13:35

an elevation. And as

13:37

Douglas fir dies out from lower

13:39

elevations. And so I was interested

13:41

in whether or not Douglas fir

13:43

as it's dying or being attacked

13:45

or weakening, whether it would communicate

13:48

information to the ponderous opine that

13:50

would be better adapted to that

13:52

warmer climate. And sure enough, we

13:54

found that Douglas fir was sending

13:56

For one, it sent a lot

13:58

of carbon over to the ponderosa

14:00

pine, which was interesting, but it

14:02

also sent this defense information. And

14:04

we think that the jasmonic acid

14:06

pathway in the injured plant was

14:08

triggered and that these byproducts of

14:10

that pathway were transmitted over to

14:12

the ponderosa pines and produced these

14:14

defense enzymes and protected that ponderosa

14:17

pine against the injury. So

14:19

yeah, it was quite amazing. I'm

14:22

a hot strike. Your work

14:24

just... our understanding of the

14:26

natural world on its head

14:28

and it leads us to

14:30

see, you know, these collaborating

14:32

systems everywhere. I suspect

14:34

the scientific community, even though you're now

14:36

appreciated by millions, the scientific community

14:38

was a little bit skeptical of

14:40

you early on or hostile even. Yeah,

14:44

I think because not just

14:46

in academia, but in the

14:48

practice of forestry, we were

14:50

just so fixated on competition.

14:52

And like I said, Darwin

14:55

was really a theoretical evolutionary

14:57

biologist that really paved the

14:59

way for our understanding of

15:01

natural selection. And that

15:03

is still an incredible finding and

15:05

body of theory. However, even

15:07

Darwin understood that collaboration was important

15:09

in plant communities. And even

15:11

though he didn't get you know,

15:13

known for that, really. And

15:15

it got lost, I think, in

15:17

all the, you know, the

15:19

fascination with natural selection based on

15:21

competition. He still understood it.

15:23

But, you know, in us,

15:25

applying this theory, you know, that more

15:27

narrow theory, we just got so

15:29

carried away. And it's so entrenched in

15:31

our practices and, you know, how

15:33

we manipulate or manage ecosystems, that it's

15:36

hard to change. And, you know,

15:38

people get attached to these theories. And

15:40

especially if there's a lot of

15:42

money involved in the business behind it,

15:44

you know, then there's a great

15:46

reluctance. And I think that's what I

15:48

came up against those two things,

15:50

the academic side, as well as the

15:52

application side. There's

15:55

a wonderful paper from 2015

15:57

by Ming Quo of the University

15:59

of Illinois where she identifies

16:01

21 pathways through which nature heals

16:03

your body. It's linked to

16:05

stronger immune systems, lower inflammation. When

16:08

you think about your life, living

16:10

and studying in nature, what do

16:12

you think it's given you? Well, you

16:14

know, I don't think I'd have a life

16:16

without nature. Period.

16:20

Period. And yeah, all

16:22

of us. Every

16:24

day I go to the forest, right? I

16:26

live in the forest. I live in a

16:28

little town called Nelson, which is in southeastern

16:31

BC that is near the Rocky Mountains. It's,

16:33

you know, surrounded by mountains and

16:35

forests. And so I go every

16:37

day. And all those things you

16:39

talk about, you know, the calming

16:41

of the senses, the touch, the

16:43

sounds, the breath, the chemistry, I

16:46

get all that every day. And

16:48

I think that's what gives me

16:50

so much, you know, strength and,

16:52

and also You know, I'm devoted

16:54

to helping these forests survive and

16:56

be strong and be resilient as

16:58

climate change is not just for

17:00

me, but for the whole ecosystem

17:02

and my children and generations to

17:04

come. So being in the forest

17:06

gives me motivates to do that.

17:08

It certainly gives back to me

17:10

every day. You

17:13

say, I don't think I'd have a life

17:15

without nature. In Finding the Mother Tree,

17:17

you write about that. How a chemical derived from

17:19

a tree actually saved your life when you

17:21

had cancer. Yeah, you know,

17:23

I had breast cancer, so I

17:25

had to go through a pretty

17:27

strong regimen of chemotherapy and, you

17:29

know, I've been cancer -free for over

17:31

nine years, so I'm really happy

17:33

that it worked. And so, yeah,

17:35

there were two medicines that they

17:37

used for me because it was

17:39

a worrisome case. And one

17:41

of them was pachytaxal, which

17:43

is derived from the Pacific U

17:46

tree. And these trees

17:48

grow all around me in the

17:50

forests around me. And it was discovered

17:52

actually from Aboriginal knowledge systems. Aboriginal

17:54

people used the U and

17:56

extracts from its cambium and

17:58

its phloem and needles to

18:00

make medicines. And so

18:02

they'd known about this for like

18:05

thousands of years. of living here

18:07

and working with these trees. And

18:09

then the USDA, US Department of

18:11

Agriculture actually scanned for this Aboriginal

18:13

knowledge about the minstrel use of

18:15

a number of plants, hundreds of

18:17

plant species, and they screened them

18:19

for anti -cancer agencies. And the

18:22

U Tree came up as like one of

18:24

the big stars. And I promised in my

18:26

book, I would give back. And

18:28

so my graduate students and I

18:30

were looking at how old girls seeders

18:32

and maple trees which grow alongside

18:34

cedars and yew trees, they all grow

18:36

together and we just discovered they're

18:39

all linked together in these arboscular mycorrhizal

18:41

networks. And I was interested in

18:43

how the neighborhood and the relationships with

18:45

other trees might affect the production

18:47

by the yew tree of taxol and

18:49

not just how much but the

18:52

quality and the anti -cancer medicinal agency

18:54

of it. And so that's what we're

18:56

doing. So definitely, you know, coming

18:58

back to the theme of relationships

19:00

and it's so important not just

19:02

for us but for trees as

19:05

well. And it comes back

19:07

to us too, right? It's all linked

19:09

together. That's symbiosis. So,

19:13

you know, you write a lot about how

19:15

we really have to rethink nature and

19:17

you spoke of this earlier, you know, it's

19:19

not purely competition, you know. out

19:21

for its own kind, it's cooperative. There's

19:24

a deep sense of community in

19:26

a lot of different ecosystems and social

19:28

systems. And one of the striking

19:30

illustrations of this, and I'm just curious

19:32

for you to riff off this,

19:34

is how like humans, when seedlings grow

19:37

up, linked into these neurological net

19:39

or fungal networks of elder trees, they

19:41

survive better and grow better. So

19:43

being connected is better. Humans, that's

19:45

one of the central findings in the science of

19:47

happiness is just be connected. What

19:49

are the broader life lessons you

19:51

took from that finding and then

19:54

this rethinking of nature? In

19:56

the last half dozen years, I've

19:58

been looking at whether or

20:00

not these old trees can recognize

20:02

which seedlings they're associated with

20:04

and whether they're related to them.

20:07

And we found that they are. And when you

20:09

say that, you know, that the survival was

20:11

better, that's true. That's what we found. They have

20:13

better survival, better growth rates,

20:15

better nutrition. And these

20:17

old trees transmit carbon to these

20:19

kin that help them get through

20:21

their early years, their juvenile years.

20:23

And so that connection is absolutely

20:25

essential, especially, you know, in forests,

20:28

these little seedlings are growing up

20:30

under pretty stressful conditions, right? If

20:32

it's in an - Survival rate

20:34

is low. Yeah, the light is

20:36

low. They can't synthesize enough. And

20:38

so they're getting these extra resources

20:40

from these parent trees. And if

20:42

that's happiness, because I think

20:44

in trees, I would be happy if I

20:46

was getting all that too. So it

20:49

certainly helps them have a better life. Incredible.

20:53

final question you've published, you know, hundreds

20:55

of studies, peer review, you

20:57

know, and you work at this

20:59

incredibly complex multi -layer levels of analysis

21:01

of RNA and molecules and carbon and

21:03

genotypes and neurological networks and the

21:05

like. And I'm just curious how you

21:08

would shift up to like, what

21:10

are the one or two big takeaways

21:12

for you that our listeners should

21:14

take from our conversation? Well,

21:16

one thing is that we are at an

21:18

environmental Crossroad, right? We're

21:20

at a critical time, and I know people were

21:22

probably tired of hearing this, but it's true, right? Climate

21:25

is changing so quickly, but...

21:27

mitigate that. And so my message

21:29

here is, you know, get involved

21:31

because the forest management and exploitation

21:33

of forests is just making that

21:35

worse. And what we need to

21:37

do is we need to keep

21:39

our old growth forests because they're

21:41

with the homes of biodiversity, 80 %

21:43

of our species live in forests.

21:45

They house over 80 % of

21:47

the world's carbon. And so in

21:49

order to be an effective activist is

21:52

to love the forest and be engaged in

21:54

nature so that you'll devote your time

21:56

and energy to it because it's worth it.

21:58

It's worth it for our next generations.

22:00

It's worth it for our current generation, right,

22:02

because we're all, you know, feeling the

22:04

effects of climate change and species losses already

22:06

Every day. Well, Suzanne Samard,

22:09

thank you for your book, Finding Mother Tree,

22:11

Discovering the Wisdom of the Forest, and I want

22:13

to thank you for stopping by on the

22:15

Science of Happiness. Thanks so much for having me.

22:20

What if the key to feeling better

22:22

was already in your hands, a

22:24

pen, a paintbrush, or a lump of

22:26

clay? Everybody is a creator

22:28

and everybody is an artist. It's about

22:30

really expressing what is inside of you in

22:32

a way that is unfettered by anyone

22:34

else's rules. And that's it, and just do

22:37

that. On our next episode

22:39

of the Science of Happiness, we're getting

22:41

into how art can give us insights

22:43

into our emotions and the world around

22:45

us. Thanks

22:54

for joining us on the

22:56

Science of Happiness. Our producer is

22:58

Truc Quinn. Our associate producers

23:00

are Emily Brower and Dasha Zarboni.

23:02

Sound designer Jenny Cattaldo Accompany

23:04

Studios. Our executive producer

23:06

Shuka Kalantari. I'm

23:08

Dakar Keltner. Have a great day.