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hello boys and girls ladies and germs this is tim

4:28

ferris and welcome to another upset of the tim

4:30

ferris show i'm so excited to have

4:33

my guess today his name is

4:35

rich role and i'm gonna start

4:38

in an unorthodox way and that is

4:40

by reading a tweet i don't really do this

4:42

as don't know if i've ever done this but this

4:44

is a tweet from october

4:46

twenty eighteen and i think

4:48

richard pryor going to see where this is going just

4:51

before his fifty second birthday

4:53

here's the tweets i didn't reach my athletic

4:55

peak until i was forty three i didn't write

4:58

my first book until i was forty four i

5:00

didn't start my podcast until i was forty

5:02

five at thirty i thought my life

5:04

was over at fifty two i know it's just

5:06

beginning keep running never give

5:08

up and what's your face sore then

5:11

theres actually another tweet within contact

5:13

ive retreated this for people who want see

5:15

it they can also find it of course at

5:17

rich roll also i

5:19

want mention one more thing before we get to

5:23

more of the bio and that is related

5:26

to your first

5:28

half iron man social services

5:30

and outside magazine and here's a quote in

5:33

my first half iron man i bark during the

5:35

swim by the time i got off my bike my legs

5:37

were so cramped up that i ran one hundred

5:39

meters for you yanks like me

5:41

as spent three hundred feet and just stopped it

5:44

was dns that means he did

5:46

not finish the beginnings and travel

5:48

on are very humble but i loved it right

5:51

so i'm gonna give this in

5:53

dribs and drabs but let's start with paragraph

5:56

once and now zooming out to present

5:58

day the little bitter respective

6:00

at each forty ritual as i mentioned at

6:03

rich role on twitter made the decision to

6:05

overhaul the century throes of

6:07

overweight middle age and i

6:09

might the may or may not be in that

6:11

place just right now walking

6:13

away from a career in law he reinvented

6:15

himself as a globally recognized ultra

6:17

distance and durant's athletes that's

6:19

selling author and host of the wildly popular

6:22

ritual podcast which i highly recommend

6:25

one of the world's most listen to podcasts with

6:27

more than two hundred million downloads

6:29

and i'm going to modify the next paragraph little

6:31

bit rich has been named one of the twenty

6:33

five citizen in in the world by men sickness

6:35

and the grew of reinvention

6:38

by outside magazine he's

6:40

written a bus imam or finding ultra

6:43

and as coauthored the cookbooks slash

6:45

life style guides the plant far away and

6:47

the plant power away a polymath with

6:50

his wife julie is it yet

6:53

it then it i knew i had a circular

6:55

it is yes there is a common

6:58

commonsense you're not alone this

7:00

is showing where the and how the sausage

7:03

is made because a professional would have asked and

7:05

and fact i highlighted her last name few

7:07

ask before we started recording but

7:09

you know we live in very and very

7:12

and to get a few things mentioned

7:14

and will mentioned them again at the very end ritual

7:16

dot com you can find all things rich

7:18

related ritual on all

7:20

social including twitter instead youtube except

7:23

for facebook this rich role

7:26

fans rich welcome

7:28

to the show thanks so much for having

7:30

me term it's really an honor to be able

7:32

to join you for this and i'm

7:34

really looking forward to the conversation to come so thanks

7:36

for having me yeah absolutely

7:39

need to and for those who can't see video

7:41

at some point maybe second out because we have

7:43

the perfect yin yang

7:46

color template here you have rather

7:49

disheveled tim ferris in hand

7:51

with white background and resets

7:54

looking like a handsome devil with

7:56

black clothing black background it's

7:58

actually very striking i said quest the guess

8:00

do in the future and they don't will help

8:02

viewers to keep them separate so let's really dive

8:05

in here and i want to establish

8:07

just a bit of background for

8:09

folks and rooney go all over

8:11

the place to

8:13

at age forty for it's he make the decision

8:15

to overhaul da da da let's

8:18

get granular and me we could

8:20

focus on one piece of this life puzzle

8:23

which is alcohol and

8:27

that you speak to the role that alcohol

8:29

has played in your life when it entered your life

8:32

when you really realized

8:34

that you had a problem let's

8:37

begin their for a minute

8:39

it entered my lies

8:41

near the end of highschool and the beginning

8:43

of college prior to that

8:46

i was a very studious highly

8:48

motivated person

8:50

who was very goal driven

8:53

and that grew out of

8:55

i think in retrospect looking back on my life

8:58

on a deep insecurity

9:01

that i had because as a young person i

9:03

was very much an introvert i

9:06

had a lot of difficulty connecting

9:08

with other people and making friends i

9:10

certainly hadn't demonstrated any kind

9:13

of athletic talent to work or ability

9:15

i was the typical like prototypical

9:17

get who gets picked last

9:19

for kick ball and very

9:21

awkward and self conscious

9:24

and at some point along the way i

9:26

discovered those words swimming and we

9:28

talk about that if you like but that was

9:31

the one thing where i kind of felt comfortable

9:33

and showed some level of acumen

9:35

at an early stage and when you're a young person

9:38

and you experienced as a little bit

9:41

of encouragement or success you're gonna kind

9:43

of doubled down on that and that's what i did and

9:45

i think there was something about under

9:47

water in almost a metaphysical science

9:50

or a psychological sense where i self protected

9:52

like it was almost like this womb where i

9:55

was insulated from all of the confusing

9:57

emotions that i had as a young person and

10:00

those winning really became my focus

10:02

and i realized early

10:04

that i wasn't the most talented kid but

10:06

i had this capacity to suffer

10:09

and of work hard and a willingness to

10:11

go the extra mile and with that

10:14

sensibility i was able to bridge

10:16

the talent deficit cap to some extent

10:19

to the point where are the time the time a senior

10:21

in high school i was one of the better swimmers in the

10:23

washington dc area where i grew up and

10:26

the discipline that i learned in the swimming

10:28

pool trickled into my

10:30

academic pursuits so i was able

10:32

to go from a kid who really hard the

10:34

trouble learning and was sort of sit in the

10:37

back of the class kind of guy the

10:39

you the a good students

10:41

and ultimately getting into a bunch of fancy

10:43

colleges so at eighteen i really

10:46

was in a situation a very privileged situation

10:48

where the world was very much my oyster

10:50

and anything was possible i

10:52

ended up going to the average university

10:55

in i went to the opposite coast

10:57

i'm sure there's some psychological reasons why

11:00

i flew three thousand miles away to go to college

11:03

and it was you know the reason to go there was

11:05

to fall the mean first of all stanford all

11:07

stanford says amazing academic institution

11:09

but at the time in the mid

11:12

and late nineteen eighties and also had the

11:14

number one answer to a division

11:16

one man swimming program they were like the

11:19

most incredible team the most the

11:21

scene assemble a job

11:23

olympic champions and world in american

11:26

record holders and and the like and

11:28

the opportunity to be a member

11:30

of that team was like a dream that i couldn't

11:32

even imagine for myself so your

11:34

i am in this incredibly

11:37

privilege situation where anything

11:39

truly as possible but enter

11:41

alcohol and alcohol

11:44

was something that i first was

11:47

introduced to when i was doing recruiting trips

11:49

and traveling the colleges which is what you do

11:51

when you're you know an athlete and trying to consider

11:53

were going to school and i had some experience

11:55

is there that really anchored in me

11:58

for a moment one that this

12:00

was gonna be a thing for me like i

12:02

had that sensation that you your

12:05

about with recovering alcoholics

12:07

were from the very first drink

12:10

it was like this warm blanket i

12:12

could wrap myself in an all my

12:15

troubles and insecurities and fears

12:17

and insecurities just sort of

12:19

vanished and for the first time i felt

12:22

comfortable in my own skin and i just remember

12:25

thinking this is the way that i want to feel all

12:27

the time like i could go to a party

12:29

and like strike up a conversation

12:31

or crack a joke or talked to a girl

12:34

which were all things that were terrifying to me at

12:36

the time and so i just felt

12:38

like i had found the solution that

12:41

i had been looking for my whole life

12:43

this young person who felt like everybody else

12:45

had the perfect road map

12:47

for how to lives and suddenly you know

12:49

those answers that eluded me were being provided

12:52

in the form of this substance and so when

12:54

i got to stanford very quickly

12:57

well quickly and gradually but i

13:00

would say that i got more and more

13:02

progressively more interested in like where's

13:05

my next a good time then

13:07

how am i going to create a foundation

13:09

for a happy successful license

13:11

a lot of those aspirations that i had about

13:14

what a and academic

13:16

excellence soon became secondary

13:19

to you know where's that where's the party

13:21

tonight and it was just a situation

13:24

where over an extended period of time

13:26

like my my life began to the

13:28

grade so it wasn't a situation in which

13:30

i created cataclysms out of

13:32

the gave that derailed me because

13:35

i could function and your

13:37

it's easier to do that when you're younger but i could function

13:40

i could import myself in a way where i could

13:42

still get good grades shop for class

13:45

still go out partying until two or three

13:47

in the morning and shown for six am swim practice

13:50

that over time like this is not a good

13:52

recipe for for living and

13:54

and eat i live that way for very long time

13:56

and sell ultimately things got really dark

13:59

and scary and not hit that

14:01

autumn that you hear about with people in recovery

14:04

what did

14:06

any of the buttons are dark

14:08

moments look like if we could

14:10

paint a picture of any example the comes to mind

14:13

first of i would say that there is there was nothing like

14:15

cool a rock and roll about any of it like

14:18

it's just lonely saddam and kind of

14:20

pathetic and and deeply embarrassed things

14:22

you know just you know i would i would

14:24

drive drunk and like wouldn't remember where

14:26

i parked my car and would have to wake up the next

14:28

morning and try to figure out where where my car

14:31

was when i was living in san francisco when

14:33

i was fresh on a law school one

14:35

time i woke up one day didn't

14:37

wanna go to my law firm job and like

14:39

flew to las vegas and lost my wallet

14:41

and woke up not remembering anything that

14:43

had happened and try to figure out on going to get

14:45

home you know stuff like that that's

14:48

just you know i was the guy

14:50

who the when i was the last

14:52

to leave the party and when you're

14:55

in college he or maybe it's cute

14:57

but when you're twenty five twenty six

14:59

twenty eight you know nobody's living that way

15:01

anymore and you have to find other people

15:03

to do that with what they called lower companions

15:06

in the process of recovery intel

15:08

ultimately there's no one last and you're just alone

15:11

and i was a guy who would drink alone in my

15:13

apartment or wake up in

15:15

the morning before work and have

15:17

a vodka tonic in the shower like it was all very

15:20

leaving las vegas i was only

15:22

thirty one at the time but my disease

15:24

have progressed to such a state where there

15:26

was really only a couple

15:29

is that we're gonna happen either i was going

15:31

to kill myself kill another person

15:33

or end up in jail or some kind of institution

15:37

and that's really kind of what you know ultimately

15:39

led me to getting to getting

15:42

would you say kill yourself do you mean via

15:44

alcohol poisoning or a car accident

15:47

or via some deliberate

15:49

suicide

15:50

what do you mean by that i was never suicidal

15:52

i didn't have suicidal ideation but

15:55

my life was getting smaller and smaller

15:57

and more lonely so if i was a the

16:00

kind of maintain that lifestyle over an extended

16:02

period of time i'm certain that

16:04

i would have reached a level of desperation

16:06

where that would have seemed like a good idea

16:09

why did you choose law

16:12

why did you choose to pursue lot right

16:14

out of college i moved to new york city and

16:16

got a job as a paralegal in a big

16:18

law firm in new york called skadden arps

16:20

as as you and that was a situation that

16:23

should have told me immediately

16:25

that maybe this wasn't the right path for sea

16:28

biscuit else but i think that

16:30

that i chose it not

16:32

out of some kind of deliberate idea

16:35

that it would be something i would be interested

16:37

and or show some proficiency

16:39

and but more as a reaction

16:42

to social and familial

16:44

pressures like this idea of not

16:46

really knowing what i wanted to do but hey

16:48

i can always go to law school and society

16:51

will smile upon that and i can put a nice

16:53

suit on and have nice lunches and have interesting

16:55

conversations with people and make

16:57

a good living i mean my self

17:00

inquiry really didn't go any further than

17:02

that and there was nothing about like my

17:05

interests that would have indicated

17:07

that law was indicated good passer

17:09

me but i was so disconnected from myself

17:12

that's even asking myself that's question

17:14

at the time was anathema

17:16

to who i was but i'm a good student and

17:19

actually enjoyed last war enjoy the intellectual

17:21

pursuits and and all of that

17:23

but the practice of law is very different at

17:26

least in the corporate law firm contacts very different

17:28

than the law school experience the

17:32

jury knowing many people who went to law school

17:34

humans i can nests

17:36

through secondhand stores say

17:38

that seems to universally be the

17:41

perspective that people yeah but then if you if

17:43

you love it it's that's your thing then more

17:45

power to you but i just remember walking

17:48

the halls of in other various law firms that firms

17:50

worked at being confused that

17:52

there seem to be certain people that enjoyed it

17:54

because it was just gritting my way through it

17:56

thinking i'll just apply these

17:58

tools that i learned in the some cool about

18:00

suffering and the intolerance

18:03

and i just thought everybody was having that internal

18:05

experience assess observed many

18:07

were that there seems to be some people

18:09

that seem to enjoy but i just know that the more

18:12

that i kind of looked around certainly

18:14

with respect to the partners that

18:16

it was clear to me that i didn't really want

18:19

that lice and yet assault very stock

18:21

and that for your path and unsure about how

18:23

i could ever get out of that and do anything else

18:26

we're going to spend as people listening and also

18:28

for you receive on think that we're going to spend

18:30

too much time and in these waters for can

18:32

spend a lot of time talking about turnarounds

18:36

the techniques pattern matching all sorts of things

18:38

but i do want spend a little more time

18:42

this after or maybe

18:44

the chapter shortly after this point

18:46

types what was the

18:48

stronger what were the straw that broke the camel's

18:50

back with respect to the

18:53

alcohol and seeking out

18:55

while there are a couple important inflection

18:57

points one of which was getting

19:00

to do you eyes essentially in a row

19:02

with ridiculously high blood alcohol

19:04

content looking at jail time

19:07

my boss finding out as a law firm and

19:10

in on the precipice of getting fired

19:12

as a whole rabbit hole the announcer

19:14

of chaotic disaster that i weathered

19:17

another one was a marriage or i

19:19

should say like a wedding that went awry

19:22

since i , married

19:24

and that relationship ended on the honeymoon

19:26

which is a whole crazy stuff that

19:30

is inextricably linked to linked mean

19:32

i was sober at the time but it's very much linked

19:34

to my alcoholism so

19:37

there's big events like that but i think

19:39

those situations created such

19:41

situations deep level of same inside

19:43

of same that i wasn't able to

19:46

shake alcohol in the wake

19:48

of those experiences because i

19:50

didn't have the emotional tools to process

19:52

man so i continue to drink for a

19:54

while me nuts the wedding was really

19:57

you know the needy or of the whole thing and

19:59

a reasonable person would have woken up

20:01

and gotten sober at that time but i needed to medicate

20:03

myself through that emotional

20:06

shit storm until one

20:08

day i basically woke up and i

20:10

was hung over but it wasn't like i had

20:13

read any kind of chaos the night before

20:15

but it's just that moment of realizing like

20:17

i've had enough like i can't live this way

20:20

anymore so lonely

20:22

and desperate and it only leads in

20:24

one direction and i

20:26

think that's what it takes for anybody

20:28

who has experience with addiction particularly

20:31

substance addiction you

20:33

have this sounds like you ask me earlier on

20:35

sam like when did i know i had a problem

20:37

like i knew i had a problem very

20:39

early on in my drinking career

20:41

but that's very different from the willingness

20:44

to do anything about it like i harbored

20:46

this notion that this was a problem for

20:48

me but you're also protecting it because

20:50

you want to be able to keep doing it and that's

20:52

what's leads to you know this survey

20:54

double life where you're hiding your

20:57

behavior from other people and deluding

20:59

yourself into thinking that they don't know what's going

21:01

on but ultimately you realize

21:03

like everybody knows what's going on and

21:06

on some level the process

21:09

of stripping away those layers of

21:11

denial until you can really see

21:13

the objective truth of what you're doing

21:15

and that's a very terrifying thing

21:18

and so that's kind of what was going on inside

21:20

of me until this day ninety

21:22

day ninety whereas like okay have had it like

21:24

i'm i'm ready to really take this

21:26

seriously and do something about it

21:28

how old were you roughly then my

21:30

masses is gonna fairly at this moment

21:33

but nineteen and yeah

21:34

yeah was thirty one thirty one or

21:36

it ends the

21:38

cause

21:39

it struck me as a curveball if you don't want to

21:41

get into that's totally fine folks

21:44

in my mind i envisioned this honeymoon

21:46

just going down as

21:48

a fireball do too

21:51

some catastrophe those alcohol and as be

21:53

you said you were sober yes

21:56

are you willing to expand on that on that and

21:58

if yeah that's fine

22:00

ah it's so hard to describe this

22:03

and have it makes sense but essentially what happened

22:05

was i had been drinking quite a bit

22:07

i got engaged to this woman i

22:09

was living in san francisco to time she

22:12

was living in palo alto and is from palo alto

22:14

the in the kind of lead up

22:17

to this wedding as we had gotten engaged

22:19

i had taken a java moss and also we were living

22:21

in separate cities i think

22:24

during that interim period when she got distance

22:26

between me to realize like maybe

22:28

this isn't the guy want to marry and i had

22:30

come clean with her about the dui i

22:33

think i was very scary to her so even

22:35

though i had been sober for a number of months

22:37

and told her that i was committed to this path

22:39

of sobriety i seek in

22:41

her heart of hearts see really

22:44

wanted to get out of this relationship as she was

22:46

unable to muster the strength to

22:48

break it off herself and i think that she

22:50

wanted me to break it off though

22:52

there was so much energy behind this

22:55

impending wedding that was happening that

22:57

it's just kind of transpired without anybody

22:59

hitting the brakes and i was trying to be conciliatory

23:02

insights because i knew she was off

23:04

and not present in something was wrong and i would

23:06

say are you okay like what's going

23:09

on how can i make you feel comfortable

23:11

with all of this and it's a much longer

23:13

story i go into detail about it in my book

23:15

but essentially see

23:17

permitted the wedding to go through but then

23:20

didn't want to sign the marriage certificate

23:22

that's a red flag cause

23:26

, farmers and you know this

23:28

the night of the wedding when the

23:30

went back to the honeymoon suite that did not

23:33

go well i'm surprised that we even

23:35

went on the honeymoon but i think in my mind i

23:37

was thinking i'm gonna try to make this

23:39

right and it's all gonna work out

23:41

that was it's own level of delusion and

23:43

while we were on this honeymoon on

23:45

a caribbean island it was clear that

23:48

this relationship had no future and

23:50

ultimately we were able to have a conversation

23:52

about it and she ended up leaving

23:54

early and at that moment i

23:56

was left with myself with

23:59

no tool and having been sober for

24:01

six months that unable

24:03

to really process the emotional

24:05

devastation of having just

24:08

basically had everybody that i cared about

24:10

in the world with i twelve groomsmen in

24:12

this was wedding in palo alto bear

24:15

witness to a marriage

24:17

that clearly wasn't gonna work

24:19

out and it was really devastating

24:22

to me so it up getting

24:24

drunk on that island and really

24:26

struggled to get sober again for

24:28

quite some time after that and

24:31

then to thank you for sharing

24:34

nation and yeah dirty one

24:37

the had enough

24:38

how do you seek help what are your next actions

24:41

after that

24:42

so prior to that i had been court

24:44

order to alcoholics anonymous so

24:46

i'd been too meetings

24:49

but i wasn't doing it because

24:51

i wanted to get sober i was doing it because

24:54

i was compelled to do it and i think as an important

24:56

distinction especially for people

24:58

who are struggling or have people in their

25:01

lives that are struggling with a substance

25:03

issue you want to help them you

25:05

want to intervene you can create

25:07

you know interventions and things like that

25:10

to get people into treatment

25:12

but ultimately if that person is resistant

25:15

to it or isn't interested in getting

25:17

sober that's going to be a very tough hill

25:19

to climb so willingness

25:22

is like crucial so when

25:24

i was attending as a meeting i lack

25:26

that level of willingness it was more like

25:28

i just need to get people off my back so i can

25:30

go back to living the whether i want to live and

25:32

wise everybody bugging me but the

25:35

wake of that wedding experience

25:37

when my drinking got more and more dire

25:40

my parents had reached the

25:42

level of their tolerance threshold

25:45

with me and basically my dad

25:47

said listen we love you we

25:50

just can't continue to watch you destroy

25:52

yourself like this and we can't have

25:54

anything to do with you that

25:56

if you're ready to get sober

25:58

were of course you're from you but until

26:01

then we're not available to you however

26:05

because they were so terrified

26:07

of all of this they had found an

26:09

addiction medicine like hi

26:11

trust in los angeles may said we have this

26:13

guy it might be great

26:15

if you go and see him so i started

26:18

seeing this addiction medicine

26:20

specialist and you

26:22

know he just rang my dell immediately and it was like here's

26:24

the deal dude you're an alcoholic and unique kind

26:27

of treatment until you do that like nothing's gonna

26:29

change in your life's going to continue to be terrible

26:32

and i would try to negotiate with

26:34

him and say well i think i can do it in a as

26:36

i was kind of kind and out and out and a a doing

26:38

my own self experimentation with trying

26:40

to get sober but every time i would crawl

26:42

back into his office and i was honest with them

26:44

i said yeah i relapsed again or this happen

26:47

it some point i made a deal with him because

26:49

he was like are you ready go to treatment as like let me try

26:52

one more time and he said okay

26:55

the his credit i think that's a really

26:57

interesting approach like you have to back

26:59

off a little bit and allow people to have

27:01

their process it's like inception they have

27:04

to come into this awareness on

27:06

their own you cannot compel somebody

27:08

to see themselves as as

27:10

they really are and of course

27:12

i relapsed while back into his

27:14

office and because i was considered

27:17

myself such a man of my word i said

27:19

well i made a deal with you so okay

27:21

now i'll go to treatment in i called him

27:23

after this one band or on i said i'm

27:25

i'm ready and he got a bad for me and

27:28

i immediately go online and i'm researching

27:30

treatment centers and i'm lucky for that the spa

27:32

resort widely in out that has really

27:34

nice accommodations he's like nana here's

27:37

where you're going this place in oregon i

27:40

gotta best for you and on the planes as

27:43

basically out and what do you

27:45

think people

27:48

and to miss about this story whether they

27:50

hear you telling this story

27:52

or the read about it there's

27:55

things that

27:57

or important that people gloss over

28:00

for that elements of this story

28:02

whether we've heard them the

28:04

day or not that

28:07

and out use particularly importance

28:10

on the road to recovery initiating

28:12

recovery i think about

28:15

this type of question of what do people

28:17

tend to glom onto his the really important

28:19

parts what they tend to maybe neglect

28:22

the detriment of they're aiming for

28:24

recovery themselves then

28:26

you can come to mind when i sailed

28:28

you're talking more broadly about

28:31

addiction in general not my personal story

28:34

i think i'm talking about

28:36

i'm

28:37

reading into it through your personal story

28:39

so could be your personal story but it could also

28:41

be addiction in a broader

28:44

sense because part of what so

28:47

interesting to me about you and your story

28:49

is used not only had

28:52

the the experiences that you've had you

28:55

have no doubt witness many

28:57

people try to emulate

29:00

the turnarounds of various types

29:02

and you've seen some people succeed

29:04

spectacularly seen some people fail

29:06

spectacularly and then there's a whole spectrum in

29:08

between right so that i

29:10

think is

29:13

streaming interesting and potentially instructive

29:16

yeah see good answer this and in any way you like

29:18

it could be from your personal story he could

29:20

be from what you've

29:22

seen or learned more broadly

29:25

speaking about addiction

29:27

and recovery

29:28

there's a lot that i can say about this i mean first

29:30

with respected my personal story if

29:33

you google my name there's name lot

29:35

of misguided narratives out there that

29:38

me adopting a vegan diet is what

29:40

got me sober or that

29:42

ultra endurance training is

29:44

what got me sober or keeps me

29:46

sober and those are all wildly

29:48

inaccurate i mean i was sober for

29:51

almost ten years before i

29:53

made these lifestyles yes guy had a whole

29:55

chapter in between where i created foundation

29:57

sobriety so sobriety

30:00

the an addiction stand outside

30:02

of those things and those other things

30:04

have a role in my life

30:06

addiction and recovery are

30:08

a very separate thing and

30:10

that's the way that i kind of think about it and i

30:12

think in terms of addiction

30:15

and recovery more broadly i

30:18

think it's important for people to understand

30:20

that for somebody who

30:22

is addicted and who's

30:25

in a behaving poorly or all

30:27

the stuff that addicts do it's

30:30

not a referendum on moral

30:32

character it's like they're suffering from

30:34

an illness that wants to kill them

30:37

and when they get sober we

30:39

think of drugs and alcohol are gambling

30:41

or whatever behavioral addiction that someone

30:44

might have as the problem

30:46

that has been eradicated but in

30:48

truth the behavior or the

30:50

substance is the solution to the problem

30:53

there's a level of psychic

30:55

pain within a human being and

30:58

they search out a substance

31:01

or behavior that give

31:03

them some level of solace

31:05

like substance or the behavior

31:07

is the solution to the problem because

31:10

it allows them to feel okay

31:12

so that they can function in the world

31:14

and it works for a while as it didn't

31:16

work people wouldn't do it what

31:19

a mess is that it is solving

31:21

a problem for them of course

31:24

it progresses and then things go

31:26

sideways and it's no longer

31:28

the solution but that's how it begins

31:31

and when you remove those behaviors

31:33

and substances from those people they

31:36

don't know what to do with themselves they're like alive

31:38

emotional wire without

31:41

any kind of tools for addressing

31:44

the underlying problem and has fueled

31:46

the addictive behavior for so long and

31:50

the process of recovery is really

31:52

about providing

31:54

tools some tactical

31:57

some strategic the

32:00

practical and some very ephemeral

32:02

spiritual that can

32:06

the guy house in helping

32:08

people create new

32:10

neural pathways an emotional

32:12

relationship where's how

32:15

they engage with the world and that's a very

32:17

slow nonlinear

32:19

process and that's why

32:22

so many addicts and alcoholics have

32:24

a lot of relapses in their story

32:26

and relapses are always treated as failures

32:29

but ultimately they're learning experiences

32:31

because you're trying to reorganize

32:34

your entire life in accordance

32:36

with new ways of living that are very

32:38

foreign to somebody who has

32:40

been engaging in a behavior

32:42

or addicted to a substance for

32:45

so long so there's a saying in in recovery

32:47

like your emotional development

32:50

get stunted from the moment

32:52

that you begin to use and when you remove

32:54

the substance you're left with that

32:57

young person at that stage of

32:59

life and you have to trust that person

33:02

with that in mind because they lack

33:04

the tools that other people normal

33:06

people take for granted and

33:08

i think the more that we kind of understand this

33:11

it allows us to have a little bit more

33:14

compassion for the people that

33:16

suffer and a

33:18

way to kind of hold them in our

33:20

hearts and a little bit more

33:23

lightly when they slip up

33:25

and do the same because for people

33:27

that don't have direct experience with as it

33:30

defies logic like how could you

33:32

do that like after everything that's happened

33:35

he went into that thing again like it's so

33:37

difficult to understand so i

33:39

think to the extent that we can peel back

33:41

the layers of the onion and

33:43

really understand what's fueling that behavior

33:46

to begin with allows start

33:48

kind of be more compassionate to those

33:50

people the really well and

33:53

it brings to mind for me something

33:56

that the doctrine and government

33:58

day he said

34:00

in the oxygen atoms in which was i'm

34:02

paraphrasing here but he said don't ask why the ditch

34:04

and ask why the pain very much

34:07

in line with what you just said what

34:09

is the addiction being used for and

34:12

they can imagine and i'm gonna a

34:15

leap year but hogan

34:17

is direction imagine that

34:19

a lot of the question to yet about addiction how

34:22

did you stop how did you stop at it without

34:25

you

34:26

how did you negate subtract something

34:28

but

34:30

that's some traction leaves

34:32

a void of sorts

34:34

where it leaves and the

34:36

unaddressed need war

34:39

on shield wound

34:41

you questions related to that is that resonates

34:44

with you what was it the you

34:46

the ended up needing to address and what were some

34:49

of the tools or resources

34:51

or realization that use after health

34:53

that to him sooner added

34:56

a peace the

34:58

first on on the subject of gab or like

35:00

i had him on my podcast and you

35:02

know he he slips the table on

35:04

you and and suddenly becomes a therapy

35:06

session which is amazing and i

35:08

will say that's exactly what you want

35:10

right and he was very helpful

35:13

to me in addressing

35:15

that the underlying trauma

35:17

keys and my resistance

35:20

to really go there because i love my parents

35:22

and i don't wanna blame them and he was helpful

35:25

in helping me i understand

35:27

this idea that it's not their fault they're

35:29

good people they parents at

35:31

you with the tools that they had but

35:33

that doesn't mean just because you weren't almost

35:36

an impoverished or abused in any particular

35:38

way doesn't mean that you didn't suffer some kind

35:41

of trauma that ultimately related

35:43

to you know the behavior that you pursued

35:46

later on mice and i think to

35:48

your other point the tools

35:50

certainly yeah i mean i

35:52

wasn't able to stay sober when i was a tourist

35:55

in alcoholics anonymous because i was sitting in the

35:57

back dissuading get my corker check

36:00

very different from engaging

36:02

with the true process of recovery

36:04

and yeah i'm a twelve step guy and

36:07

the whole alcoholics anonymous thing

36:10

is shrouded in and anonymity

36:12

for reasons anonymity don't want to get to specific about

36:14

that other than to say that

36:16

the steps are steps

36:18

for a reason and it really is this incredible

36:21

road map for the

36:24

packing a lot of that underlying

36:27

pain providing you with

36:29

tools to redress it in

36:31

a meaningful practical way that

36:34

alleviate that burden and

36:36

that shame and allow you to

36:38

mature and somebody who can look somebody in

36:40

the eye and shock when you say you're going to start

36:43

etc and a big piece

36:45

in that is there's lots

36:47

to pieces but one of the crucial piece

36:49

is is doing in inventory

36:51

which is

36:52

the the four-step where you literally

36:54

go through your life and you itemize

36:57

out all of your resentments

36:59

towards people institutions etc

37:02

so that you do your of resentment inventory

37:05

the do a fear inventory where you

37:07

itemize everything it you're scared us and

37:09

you do a sexual inventory where you

37:12

hold yourself accountable how

37:14

your sexual energy has created

37:17

havoc in your relationships and i think

37:19

the more comprehensive

37:21

that inventory the more clear

37:24

the picture is the

37:27

are you have conducted your life and

37:29

from that seems emerge where you

37:31

see these recurrences of like our when

37:33

i'm in the situation i always behave this

37:35

way or this type of person always

37:38

makes me feel resentful and

37:40

you can kind of go behind that and you get

37:42

a better understanding of your

37:44

fundamental blueprint which is rebel

37:46

it's already frankly that inventory

37:49

is only helpful to the extent

37:51

that it then allows you

37:53

to itemize all of the people

37:55

to whom you owe a man's because

37:58

you're carrying around with that in

38:00

is psychic burden of knowing that

38:02

you have wrong people or

38:04

screwed up situations are creating

38:07

chaos and other people's lives and

38:09

reckoning with that and then

38:12

addressing it by going

38:14

to these people and figuring out how to make

38:16

those wrongs right is

38:18

a huge relief that

38:21

there's like a pressure valve release on

38:24

a lot of that scene and

38:26

the more that you engage in this process you

38:28

kind of emerged from

38:30

where you can make peace with your past and it no

38:32

longer holds all that power over

38:34

you and you can talk about it

38:37

freely without it creating all

38:39

of those challenging emotions that

38:41

are so inextricably related to

38:44

the errands behavior itself so that's

38:46

a huge piece that's something

38:48

that i continue to practice all

38:51

the time it's something it you return

38:53

to constantly including

38:56

the can stop which is basically do it like a daily

38:58

ten staff were you do a daily inventory

39:00

of how you conduct yourself where you

39:02

might have gone wrong if you have to make any

39:04

kind of like minor a man's or adjustments

39:07

in your life then on top of that

39:09

meditation is a step in

39:12

the dropdown so daily meditation super

39:14

important well and there's a lot more

39:17

in there but i would say those are kind of like

39:19

the fundamental tools

39:24

just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and will be

39:26

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40:45

i am so endlessly fascinated

40:48

by twelve step programs

40:50

and

40:52

multi step programs a a specifically

40:54

the story is bill wilson i

40:57

find all of it's just incredible

40:59

also the decentralized

41:01

nature of nature itself

41:05

are you were the now i'll

41:07

be honest that i did it just a very

41:10

cursory search i didn't do a really

41:12

dedicated search for you were have any good

41:14

books or documentaries it's

41:16

dig into the

41:19

history the tools

41:22

of the eight you

41:25

were of anything that comes to mind he i'm sure

41:27

there are those things that exist i i don't know

41:29

any off hand

41:31

no there was that movie that james woods did a

41:33

while back where he played bill wilson better

41:35

i don't know that i would recommend that one i'm sure

41:37

there are and there's plenty of kind of

41:40

for wary books around recovery

41:43

like there's a book called a new pair of glasses

41:45

that it's are practical applications of the

41:47

twelve steps for for people that are that

41:49

are suffering i don't know that there's

41:51

the definitive history of

41:54

of alcoholics anonymous or the

41:57

definitive documentary but i think your

41:59

point idea centralization is so

42:01

fascinating like it it was blocked seen

42:03

before block chain you know like the way

42:05

that's the way that it's structured

42:07

is truly remarkable these

42:10

guys like your bill wilson and and doctor

42:12

bob knew that they had to decentralize

42:15

it in order to immunize it

42:17

from any kind of external

42:19

corruption or our

42:21

dynamic their could capsize

42:24

the whole thing and the

42:26

fact that it has not only

42:28

sustained itself but grown over

42:31

the many many years that it's been around is

42:34

truly miraculous and i take a kiss

42:36

i talk about a death yeah amazing it's

42:38

really incredible it's

42:40

a case study for how

42:43

to structure an organization that's trying

42:45

to do something good and not

42:47

fall prey to the lowest common

42:49

denominator of human power dynamics

42:51

that tend to sell even

42:54

the best intentioned people who are

42:56

trying to create something good and it's it's interesting

42:58

that it hasn't been replicated the

43:00

my knowledge in any other scenarios

43:03

because i think there's so much to be learned about

43:06

how he was formed an hour

43:08

it's continue to not only survive

43:10

but thrive

43:11

the primary reason i ask is that it just

43:14

seems like the is

43:17

very obvious jewel in

43:19

plain sight is that makes sense and maybe it's the

43:22

decentralized nature that makes it invisible

43:24

to a lot of ashley

43:28

direct study i don't know the reasons

43:30

for but it's just a hat knowing a lot of people

43:32

who are hard or have been part of

43:34

a and has

43:36

been introduced

43:38

casual conversation two summers

43:40

the

43:42

facets of how it works i am

43:44

really really fast biden also for people

43:46

listening the hanging themselves

43:48

god we're spending a lot of time talking about addiction

43:50

and recovery what does this have to do with

43:52

me i would just take

43:54

a moment and say people

43:57

as do what you do i was flooded

44:00

and don't really know how to answer of but i

44:02

view myself view guess first and foremost

44:05

as foremost as not necessarily expert but student

44:07

of

44:08

they've rule change and if you

44:10

look at alcoholism if

44:12

you look at other types of substance

44:14

use flash abuse if you look at work

44:17

a holism as you look at

44:20

the eating disorders mean certainly now

44:23

being over last several years involved in a lot

44:25

of scientific study related to different

44:27

conditions nicotine addiction i'd

44:30

want to see this to glibly

44:32

but they're very overlapping so

44:34

was studying behavioral change in the context

44:37

of something like addiction

44:40

to alcohol i

44:42

think grandsons that and applies

44:45

to many things in the same way that the training

44:47

and discipline and pain tolerance he cultivated

44:50

through swimming then

44:52

was applicable to you're studying

44:55

right let's

44:57

talk about the the physical hearn

44:59

around because as you mentioned

45:02

the will tend to if i could just interrupt

45:04

you can i just received sorry to do that but

45:06

i i think there's one final important

45:09

point that i wanted to make about addiction

45:11

i think you're correct like a lot of people might be listening

45:13

thing while i'm not an alcoholic or drug

45:16

addict and i don't know anyone in my life that is

45:18

either how is this relevant but

45:20

as somebody who's been and steeped

45:22

in this world for world for many years

45:24

and like yourself i've had many

45:27

guests on my podcast to discuss

45:29

this subject matter of become increasingly

45:31

more and more convinced that

45:34

we are both very cavalier

45:37

in how we define addiction like

45:39

on the chocoholics are on the shop a holiday

45:42

it's a throwaway phrase but at the same time

45:44

are also very rigid and how we define

45:46

it in that addition is

45:48

like heroin addiction or opioid addiction

45:51

and alcoholism i think

45:54

the becoming convinced that that addiction lives

45:57

on this incredibly broad spectrum

45:59

the the spectrum so broad that almost anybody

46:02

can find themselves somewhere

46:04

along the line the on the

46:06

one hand you have you know the guy can pull

46:09

the needle out of his arm around

46:11

the very far other side of the spectrum

46:13

you have people who find

46:15

themselves repeating themselves same you

46:17

know tired self defeating narrative about

46:20

their life and can't get outside of themselves

46:22

to see an objective truths about

46:24

themselves or themselves person who is

46:27

repeatedly in the same bad

46:29

relationship time and time again

46:31

or the person who is

46:34

addicted to eat or whatever it is like

46:36

video games or social media scrolling

46:38

media mean the social dilemma has really foisted

46:41

this conversation this conversation mainstream

46:45

audiences in a way that i think

46:47

is is is allowing us to really

46:50

think about addiction more broadly because of

46:52

that devices that we all have in our pockets

46:55

and so with that

46:58

i figured hope for the people

47:00

that understand that there are tools

47:02

available to help you the couple

47:05

from whatever that thing is that is

47:07

holding you hostage or creating

47:09

that obsessive compulsive behavior

47:11

that you can't seem to transcend

47:14

despite your best efforts and the

47:16

twelve steps yes like they are this

47:19

on instrumental in helping people get off drugs

47:21

and alcohol but they are very

47:23

helpful to any but you know

47:25

just to be able to do an inventory of

47:27

your life and to see yourself more objective

47:29

way into understand that you can redress

47:32

these shameful incidents in

47:34

your life as we all have them on some

47:36

level i think is really profound

47:39

and to the extent that we are talking about

47:42

addiction in this broader context right now

47:44

i think is super helpful because

47:46

you know this is an era in

47:48

which you know more people have been

47:51

become addicted than ever before

47:54

with substances and and behaviors

47:56

and so to have a conversation about

47:58

the sunday's super in for yeah

48:01

i'm really happy we're doing is it also looks the

48:04

broad applicability is concepts

48:08

from the

48:10

toaster programs or a this

48:12

case like for instance i'd never heard this term

48:14

but i wrote it down lower companions and

48:16

miss yeah well as such as perfect

48:20

for his third perfect phrasing

48:22

for what we all kind of into it on some

48:25

level but having a

48:27

simple label for it it

48:29

makes it much easier to wield

48:32

conceptually right in thinking about about

48:35

your life we're going to get to the the

48:37

physical piece because i have witnessed

48:40

the selfishly many questions about that now

48:42

i'm sure a lot of listeners would be interested in that

48:44

it's related let me throw out

48:46

another mnemonic

48:48

of sorts but it's it's a very

48:50

short phrase that

48:53

and love to hear you speak to of in any

48:55

way the makes sense mood follows action

48:58

yeah i love that one that was something

49:01

that my

49:02

the first sponsor said to me very

49:05

early on in sobriety i

49:07

think i was complaining to him about some

49:10

commitment i had made to sweep the

49:12

floors or make coffee or something

49:15

along those lines or lines or i've had happened

49:17

to me that day that i was annoyed with and

49:19

i couldn't see my way through

49:22

and you know he said mood false

49:24

action and what he meant by that is

49:27

you can't the think your way

49:30

the into the mood that you seek or that

49:32

state of mind that you aspire to inhabit

49:36

the action is the only thing that can trigger

49:38

that changed state and

49:41

i literally think about this every single day

49:43

and it was validated recently in

49:46

a park as a reader with andor huber men who i know

49:48

as been on your show where he studied

49:51

the neurochemistry of this and realize

49:53

that behavior has to come

49:55

first and thoughts perceptions

49:58

emotions follow from

50:00

that and when

50:02

you think about that in the context of our daily

50:05

lives like us to use running for example

50:07

like if you wake up in the morning and you're supposed

50:09

to do iran because you're training

50:11

for some race and you don't feel like doing it

50:14

we all resort to that

50:16

state where we think well on want to do right

50:18

now is wait until i feel like doing it

50:20

and then i'll do it then and when we the

50:23

engage that way we

50:25

end up never doing it right like if

50:27

you're waiting until you feel like doing something chances

50:29

are you're probably never gonna get to to

50:32

take the action despite how you feel

50:34

about it here's the thing that catalyzes

50:37

the state change and in

50:39

my case or anybody who's runner i'll

50:42

tell you when they finish iran are always

50:44

glad that they get it they don't generally regret

50:46

it and then they feel better and i think

50:48

that that examples clickable to

50:51

in all areas of life when

50:53

did you turn a

50:55

source in the biases at age forty why

50:58

did you the to turn

51:00

the ship around physically

51:02

so

51:06

after getting sober at thirty one an

51:09

emerging from that treatment center where i live

51:11

for one hundred days which is pretty long time

51:13

to be any treatment center that

51:15

being told by the counsellors that you

51:18

have a very serious case of alcoholism

51:20

the kind of case that we typically only see and

51:22

lifelong drinkers like guys in the sixties

51:25

it was impressed upon me that i really needed

51:27

to get this right or i was gonna

51:29

die at that point was made me very

51:32

clearly and i was able to hear it and taken

51:34

seriously and so

51:36

i was super dedicated to creating

51:40

this foundation of sobriety because

51:42

my life truly did hang in the balance

51:44

the that became my main

51:47

priority for many

51:49

years after that experience

51:51

so i returned to los angeles i

51:54

would go into multiple meetings a day

51:56

i was doing like all the stars and building

51:58

a new community of friends because i that i

52:00

needed new people hate i just i couldn't hang

52:02

out or go to the places that i had the going

52:04

to before and with that

52:07

was also i'm packing

52:09

the same that i had about being this person

52:11

who had all of this potential and

52:13

all these opportunities that i had

52:16

squandered and i

52:18

felt compelled to

52:20

repair all of that and get

52:22

back becoming that person that i was

52:25

before i started drinking and

52:27

i did that with blinders on blinders

52:29

my mind the best way to do that was

52:31

too go back to the law firm

52:34

and worked my ass off and become

52:36

a partner and get all the stuff

52:38

so that the world would smile upon

52:40

me and my parents would think that i was safe

52:43

that synonymous a spiritual program

52:45

and i was developing spiritually but i had not

52:47

yet reached the level of maturity were

52:50

i could really look inward and ask

52:52

myself those fundamental questions

52:54

about what it is that i actually wanted

52:57

to do rather than making what

52:59

is society expecting me to

53:01

do what is unique to

53:03

me what gets me excited in the morning

53:06

what do you think that you're here to express

53:08

that is uniquely you like gotchas was

53:10

not part of my mental

53:13

processes in processes in way and

53:15

so a lot of those addictive personality

53:18

traits although i was not using substances

53:21

anymore or channeled into workaholism

53:24

and in turn some pretty unhealthy

53:26

lifestyle habits so basically eighty

53:29

hour weeks working of a lawyer

53:32

and you're hitting the fast food drive

53:34

throughs on the way home and chinese take

53:36

out for late nights at work and and

53:39

the like and really despite the fact that i'd

53:41

been the swimmer and college not exercising

53:44

just not really attending to are taking care

53:46

of myself physically and so

53:48

over a ten year period that

53:50

accumulates that's that by the

53:52

time i was thirty nine i was about fifty

53:54

pounds overweight will never like an obese

53:57

person earning like that but just kind of like a heavy

53:59

guy looks like you know he works he works

54:01

too much into law firms and subsisting

54:04

on junk food and and just feeling progressively

54:06

worse and worse lazy or not

54:09

energized not enthusiastic

54:11

about my life and i seek in the back

54:13

of my awareness was this percolating

54:16

the existential crisis because i knew

54:18

that his career path and i'd chosen

54:21

was really not for me and i could will

54:23

myself into doing it but ultimately

54:26

not only not making me happy it was making

54:28

me more and more miserable

54:31

like the square peg in our in a round hole

54:33

kind of thing it i

54:35

was too afraid to really look at that or think

54:37

about how i could change that

54:39

trajectory i guess what i'm saying

54:41

is there was a confluence of for

54:43

health the one side

54:46

and this spiritual existential crisis

54:48

that i was harboring on the other hand they

54:51

essentially collided with each other shortly

54:54

before i turned forty one i had this

54:56

specific moment of walking

54:59

flight of stairs my bedroom after the

55:01

late night at the office and

55:04

i had to like stop halfway

55:06

up as a flight of stairs like i was to window

55:08

to do walk all the way to the top

55:10

and i had tightness in my chest and like

55:13

i was have that sweaty paler on

55:15

my face from a flight of stairs and thinking

55:17

on like this person who had swam at stanford

55:19

and would look in the mirror and see that

55:22

person reflected back to me i realize i was

55:24

harboring a whole other level of denial

55:26

that i needed to look at and it was a scary moment

55:28

because heart disease runs in my family my

55:32

mother's father then a

55:34

champion swimmer and captain of the university

55:36

of michigan swim team in the late

55:38

nineteen twenties early thirties and thirties

55:40

and what an american record and somebody

55:42

who is a guy that i'm named after and

55:45

in many ways like my doppelganger but he

55:47

had died of heart disease that a young age and

55:50

the had this flash were i

55:53

realized if i didn't course correct i

55:55

was living that i was mike

55:58

we had it in his direction and

56:00

would meet my demise probably sooner than

56:02

he had because there was no mcdonalds and jack-in-the-box

56:05

when he was kicking around it was sort

56:07

of like a second bottom that was very

56:09

reminiscent of the day i decided

56:11

to get sober like this very

56:13

crystallized moment in time where

56:16

it's almost like a window of opportunity

56:19

presents itself like our a crack

56:21

in the door or a line in the sand

56:23

and you have this opportunity

56:26

to harness it take advantage of

56:28

it and hey

56:30

contrary action we're

56:33

not right and because i was so

56:35

aware of how that simple decision

56:37

of going to that treatment center had seen my

56:39

life so dramatically that

56:42

i was being once again visited by just

56:44

such a moment i realized that i needed

56:46

to take action swiftly because if

56:48

i didn't kind of crap onto it immediately

56:50

i knew it would just pass

56:53

and become a samara and so that

56:55

was really the moment that

56:57

catalyze kind of everything that that followed

57:00

and even the fact that i'm talking

57:02

to you today it all tracks back

57:04

to that very specific incident what

57:07

year are we talking

57:10

more or less you're gone so yeah this

57:12

would have done the say two

57:14

thousand i was just

57:16

about turned forty so two

57:20

thousand six yeah

57:24

the this coincides with

57:27

something i have read you

57:29

describe is complete financial

57:31

dismantlement which sounds brutal

57:35

doesn't sound pleasant was that

57:37

around the same time before time

57:40

before

57:41

that's started a little bit later it was sort

57:44

of precipitated by the crash in two thousand

57:46

eight and it continued

57:48

through his ,

57:50

after publishing finding ultra like

57:52

it was a very extended period of time of

57:55

have been challenge to even put food

57:57

on the table

58:00

we i've always she cheats and front of me of course

58:02

and in a one of the one of the questions

58:04

i

58:05

like to ask as you well know what

58:08

what is the best or most worthwhile investment you've

58:10

ever made can be time money energy etc and

58:13

a good various examples of this but to

58:15

could be warren buffett talking about his best investment

58:17

being investing investment dale carnegie speaking

58:19

classes or anything at all you have all

58:21

couple here three

58:25

this isn't a train for two dozen the ultra man

58:27

stepping back from the law to write finding

58:29

ultra and then starting

58:31

your podcast wind and

58:34

so we could focus on for some i want it if it

58:36

took it with you and feel free to redirect look

58:38

at the segment stepping back from the law to write finding

58:41

ultra when was that that you step back

58:43

to them i

58:45

started writing it in the

58:48

two thousand and ten or early two thousand and eleven

58:51

okay so the reason the reason i ask

58:54

their seem to be these inflection

58:56

points and rain flushing could go sexist

58:59

multiple directions not only up but

59:02

there seem to be certain decisions

59:04

in retrospect just the

59:06

really make a lot of difference and directions

59:09

how did you decide to step back from the law

59:11

to write this book given

59:14

the complete financial dismantlement and

59:16

all these various things going on

59:19

the time and wasn't easy or hard

59:21

decision the

59:24

it goes a little bit of both at that time

59:26

i had already been

59:29

scaling back on my law practice i was

59:31

balancing training for these crazy races

59:33

which we can talk about the and becoming

59:36

less and less interested in being a lawyer

59:38

and at that time i was self employed

59:40

as a lawyer i'd i had made the stuff of getting

59:42

out of the big corporate law

59:44

firm hustle and how to get a couple

59:46

different incarnations of of

59:49

my practice being solo being with

59:51

a couple partners etc so

59:53

i had flexibility over how

59:55

i was allocating my time and

59:58

the four hour workweek was actually it

1:00:00

really helpful at that time

1:00:02

and helping me wrap my head around how i can straddle

1:00:05

these both worlds and and still get things

1:00:07

done so the truth is i had already

1:00:10

begun to take my foot off the gas

1:00:12

of little that on the law practice but

1:00:14

the opportunity to write this book

1:00:16

was such a remarkable occurrence

1:00:18

that i could have never predicted

1:00:20

happening and in my life and i just felt

1:00:23

so great falls even have

1:00:25

the opportunity there was an inbound

1:00:27

email or sometimes

1:00:30

it's actually really interesting story so

1:00:32

what happened was i had

1:00:34

been doing these races and getting

1:00:36

some notoriety for it and some

1:00:38

press and an article

1:00:41

came out in the stanford alumni

1:00:43

magazine they had mentioned what

1:00:45

i was doing and had also mentioned

1:00:47

that i had had to struggle with alcoholism

1:00:50

and have been sober for a while and

1:00:54

somebody who i only knew very

1:00:56

tangentially sent me an email

1:00:58

and said hair read that article recently

1:01:01

out of the treatment center like he was

1:01:03

an alumni recently out of treatment

1:01:06

center and i'm the ceo

1:01:08

this company my board doesn't know

1:01:10

like i need somebody to talk to you i can we

1:01:12

just talk and so i struck up

1:01:14

a phone relationship with this person

1:01:17

and was trying to help him and he of guide

1:01:19

him to make good decisions about

1:01:21

how to conduct himself an early sobriety

1:01:24

and at some point he said

1:01:26

hey said know this okay

1:01:29

don't like you're such an amazing story of

1:01:31

let me introduce you to this person and

1:01:33

at that time i hadn't thought of writing a book

1:01:36

it wasn't on my list of things that i

1:01:38

was thinking of doing the

1:01:40

and that conversation with

1:01:42

that book agent basically made me

1:01:44

feel comfortable giving it a stab

1:01:47

it was kind of a charmed thing where i wrote a

1:01:49

proposal i worked really hard on it because i recognize

1:01:52

that unique an amazing opportunity

1:01:54

presented that led

1:01:56

to reading a book the of really

1:01:59

quickly and so suddenly my life i

1:02:02

already changed because i was able to recognize

1:02:05

that this could be a lever

1:02:07

that would propel me into

1:02:09

an entirely new the

1:02:11

universe as opportunities

1:02:14

and trajectory with my career

1:02:16

so prioritizing

1:02:18

the writing of that book was like the most important

1:02:20

professional commitment that i made

1:02:23

at that time and and and really created

1:02:25

the foundation for mean me

1:02:27

being able to do kind of all the things that i do

1:02:29

now

1:02:31

do quite a few things and does

1:02:33

quite well i'll add this

1:02:37

is your organs is should say try to

1:02:39

say like really quickly sorry to interrupt you but

1:02:41

like

1:02:42

you have no idea how much that means to me term

1:02:44

like is it really is meaningful that he said that

1:02:46

because i love to you and the example

1:02:48

that you sat in all the things that you john

1:02:51

in the world in such a remarkable fashion

1:02:53

and i aspire to

1:02:55

your level of impact in and

1:02:57

influence and i just also

1:03:00

so i wanted to thank you for that and thank

1:03:02

you also for being

1:03:04

a supports me like when the book came

1:03:06

out you let me do a guest

1:03:08

blog post for your site

1:03:11

i think i pestered you and incidence

1:03:13

until you finally relented but that

1:03:16

was a heat you know that was extremely helpful

1:03:18

to me at the time and you have no idea

1:03:20

how much i appreciate that

1:03:22

thank you rich well it was my it was

1:03:24

my pleasure and i will

1:03:26

say that's a compelling

1:03:29

story is a compelling story so

1:03:31

i really

1:03:33

appreciate the

1:03:35

kind words and you're doing a hell of

1:03:37

a job in i mean i i

1:03:40

really admire the work that you're

1:03:42

doing you're doing world's and it's

1:03:44

fun for me to be sitting here asking

1:03:47

you for very since he still did for

1:03:49

it's be i've been very interim so far

1:03:51

buds the thank you for them and

1:03:54

or knock on that do you this

1:03:57

is a way of and we can go anywhere we want

1:04:00

well of course but we're recording this around

1:04:02

the turn of the new year i

1:04:05

am in the next year

1:04:07

and a turned forty five and

1:04:10

i've realized just in the last

1:04:12

few years really that the

1:04:16

not at your level with with

1:04:19

in this gonna dynastic

1:04:22

is seemed team at

1:04:25

at stanford for swimming and which

1:04:27

we might come back to at some points but

1:04:30

the had computers in his as an athlete and when

1:04:32

i competed i found it very

1:04:35

easy to motivate her

1:04:37

, of cases i mean ah

1:04:40

but there's a lot of positive and negative reinforcement

1:04:42

involves when you competes

1:04:45

and then in and last list the last it for

1:04:47

five years

1:04:49

continue to train but in a pretty lax

1:04:51

days ago ad hoc

1:04:53

way lots of travel going

1:04:55

to gyms kind of figuring out what i'm going to

1:04:57

do when i get to the gym no

1:05:00

real programming to speak of the what

1:05:02

i've realized in the last few years is

1:05:04

what i was able to pull off

1:05:06

for to say

1:05:09

ten years as the

1:05:11

it mediocre to

1:05:14

high mediocre training as is

1:05:16

not going to cut it moving forward metabolic

1:05:19

layer otherwise and i've

1:05:21

trained before having

1:05:24

completed before and and ion cells

1:05:26

as a lot of shame around

1:05:30

the and and judgment around having

1:05:32

let it slip is that makes any sense

1:05:35

in nonetheless read

1:05:37

have really decided right twenty

1:05:40

twenty two this is the year that

1:05:42

i want to make some significant changes

1:05:45

given the books given your podcast

1:05:48

your have no doubt observed many

1:05:50

people try to emulate what you've

1:05:52

done to differing degrees of

1:05:54

success what advice would

1:05:56

you give to someone in my shoes could

1:05:59

be the advice to but someone who is considering

1:06:01

this they're doing

1:06:03

a reboot

1:06:04

you

1:06:06

didn't answer the sample set the

1:06:08

use observed over time orders

1:06:10

from you drag experience

1:06:12

yeah well i me i guess the first thing i would

1:06:14

ask each him as like wise what

1:06:16

is going on what's beneath

1:06:19

that kind of surface level

1:06:21

aspect of it is that you to share

1:06:23

what is it that you feel is lacking

1:06:27

that would be facility by you

1:06:29

pursuing some kind of set his goal is

1:06:31

it just like i'm starting to feel lazy

1:06:34

or have slipped off or i'll see

1:06:36

all the way that i'd like to feel right now

1:06:38

are like i always like to ask that verse because

1:06:40

people are very casual

1:06:42

cavalier about saying i want to do this goal

1:06:44

like or i want to do this race or whatever and i'm

1:06:46

always like why like why or why

1:06:48

is that important to you right so that would be

1:06:51

the first thing i would ask you the i

1:06:53

have answers so the the first

1:06:56

the over arching answer is

1:06:58

move follows action by so i know that

1:07:00

when i am training consistently

1:07:02

with a purpose some

1:07:05

type not just going to yoga few times a week i can

1:07:07

do that i can lift weights to

1:07:09

three times a week but training with

1:07:11

a purpose i find just

1:07:14

leads me to leads better

1:07:17

mental psycho emotional state more

1:07:19

often than not need is the most reliable

1:07:22

intervention so to speak so

1:07:25

they'll be part one part to

1:07:27

and

1:07:28

we'll see where this goes but i really

1:07:31

really mess the

1:07:34

hum rhodri as being on

1:07:38

team are striving towards a similar

1:07:40

goals probably

1:07:43

with doesn't have to i've never had that experience

1:07:45

in a coed capacity so it doesn't

1:07:47

necessarily have to be all men but that experience

1:07:51

which i sound challenging to replicate

1:07:55

outside his sports would

1:07:57

be another reason it i stopped

1:07:59

doing

1:08:00

you don't you get to and so on quite a while ago

1:08:02

this because of the number of injuries i'm

1:08:04

okay with intermittent injuries i'd they just take

1:08:06

a lot longer to heal from now than they did when i was

1:08:09

history , that sixteen twenty

1:08:11

two or whatever so

1:08:14

those be top of the list and list think that

1:08:18

related to the first answer this like

1:08:20

mood follows action i think that

1:08:22

sells and we deprive

1:08:24

picked this apart i'm sure but like self

1:08:27

image also follows action like i just have

1:08:29

i feel better about myself

1:08:31

when i am raining

1:08:34

with some degree else focus

1:08:38

and the goal of some

1:08:40

type the especially this time bound i just

1:08:43

do very well with that and i haven't

1:08:45

you know overcoat and everything else not make excuses

1:08:47

but i have i've been very

1:08:50

bad at doing that him and stuff

1:08:52

like i'm training a couple times a week but i've realized

1:08:55

i'm barely skating by kind of like look

1:08:58

fit with clothing on sit race

1:09:01

not enough for me at this point i

1:09:03

enjoy i should also say i just i

1:09:05

really i do enjoy

1:09:08

my the only ram

1:09:11

he didn't maybe not to the point like when i was much

1:09:13

younger i would like go for training runs

1:09:15

for or spore sprint workouts for

1:09:17

wrestling with ever and i've run into like the blood

1:09:20

vessels in person corps my eyes like i don't need

1:09:22

to do that anymore i think that scanners

1:09:24

kinda silly for me at this point but

1:09:26

that's that's that's winded the

1:09:28

answer the requests

1:09:30

yeah well i think

1:09:32

there's a great answer and and just

1:09:34

knowing enough about you to know how

1:09:36

important structure is

1:09:38

to you like setting really measurable

1:09:42

and your ball goals

1:09:44

and benchmarks like that kind of how you

1:09:46

operate and that's the easy part

1:09:48

for you but i think the harder part is

1:09:51

securing our what is it a character

1:09:53

of the actual pursue right

1:09:55

sir and i would start with curiosity

1:09:58

like what is it that is something interested

1:10:00

in learning or exploring that might be

1:10:02

something do that sits a little bit

1:10:04

outside of your comfort zone but is

1:10:06

intriguing enough for you to wanna explore

1:10:09

it it's easy to say what usage do

1:10:11

this race or use try this or you should join

1:10:14

a team butts as a curiosity

1:10:16

is really the most important piece

1:10:18

like as if you're not interested

1:10:20

in it if you're not if it's or something that's gonna

1:10:22

get you excited and

1:10:24

have some ability to retain your

1:10:27

attention and enthusiasm chances

1:10:29

are like you're going to get bored or you're you're

1:10:31

just gonna you're gonna drop off so

1:10:33

yes starting with that i think is important

1:10:35

because i could tell you you should do this but only

1:10:38

you know what that might look

1:10:40

like but i would suggest that spending

1:10:42

time with their curiosity and then figuring

1:10:45

out how you can pursue

1:10:47

that learning curve in a challenging

1:10:49

fitness contacts that also involves

1:10:52

community or team building on a mobile

1:10:54

because at the other piece that you feel like you're missing

1:10:56

and i guess that like i i miss that

1:10:59

to you now since i do most of my

1:11:01

training alone and when i do group runs on like

1:11:03

us to do this more like this is so fun

1:11:05

and yet i don't do it so i relate

1:11:07

to that deeply he goes would be

1:11:09

good starting place is like things

1:11:11

that come to mind for me as some kind of the

1:11:14

adventure race you know or or something

1:11:16

where it involves other people and lots

1:11:18

of different types of skill sets the come

1:11:20

into play that is kind

1:11:22

of scary but also experience

1:11:25

all and potentially very fun

1:11:29

yeah or orienteering some like that i should

1:11:31

also lose the the team

1:11:33

or the team piece

1:11:36

is also a could be

1:11:38

a partner peace in

1:11:40

i think fundamentally for me what that is

1:11:43

is and accountability peace right

1:11:46

because and

1:11:48

i'm sure you experience is quite

1:11:50

a bit too it's like it's not the the

1:11:52

pursuit of bad ideas mean it could be but

1:11:54

it's it's not the the pursuit of bad

1:11:57

ideas or worthless has

1:12:01

that will drown you it's like saying

1:12:03

yes to too many the

1:12:05

whole issue things not

1:12:08

a handful or one truly great

1:12:10

thing to that makes sense right so this

1:12:12

is like this is like my major malfunction

1:12:15

these days i says the sufficed us

1:12:17

i am i guess by thousand cuts

1:12:19

these days because of like cool stuff that

1:12:21

i wanna do and say yes to to interview

1:12:24

frequently yeah so you

1:12:26

can just around and that stuff and if i don't

1:12:28

have this is gonna sound really bad i

1:12:30

know a lot an acre you need an acre

1:12:32

i need a girl needs to be a consequence

1:12:34

to me being like air i'm doing is

1:12:36

bullshit on my laptop at four pm and

1:12:38

i'm going to push off this were gonna scheduled for

1:12:41

for thirty i want a lawyer to be a

1:12:43

consequence to that a sauce

1:12:45

in a lot of ways to set up stakes and

1:12:48

consequences but a very usually

1:12:50

do it is is train with somebody allright

1:12:52

part of the reason why one of the

1:12:55

consistent forms exercise or been able

1:12:57

to get

1:12:57

the last say six months

1:13:00

is rock climbing because i'm

1:13:02

going with a ballet partner soon as they

1:13:04

show up and i'm not there it's nice

1:13:07

it's it's a real dick move could sell

1:13:10

, adventure a single i was thinking

1:13:12

orienteering possibly although i

1:13:14

say that really knowing very little about

1:13:17

it's are there any other characteristics

1:13:19

that you've been able to spot

1:13:23

amongst just patterns of people

1:13:25

making attempts at this over and over and

1:13:27

the other thing i would point out is is

1:13:30

the tendency to indulge in

1:13:32

a little bit of analysis paralysis you

1:13:34

could spend the next year trying to figure

1:13:37

out what mountain it is that you want to climb

1:13:39

or how you're going to get there and either

1:13:41

sense that city here maybe this

1:13:43

might be a thing for you and i think there's

1:13:45

a lot of value in not overthinking

1:13:48

things and just up saying this is something

1:13:50

that's interesting to me i'm just going to decide right

1:13:52

now i'm going to do this thing and it's like six

1:13:54

months from now in it's in the calendar and i have no

1:13:56

idea how i'm gonna get there but

1:13:58

it's there and i sang that

1:14:01

that composer into wanna know

1:14:03

all the answers and how it's gonna play out

1:14:05

in all the steps you're gonna need to take to get

1:14:07

their can prevent

1:14:09

us from moving forward in our lives

1:14:12

and i think these situations in

1:14:14

my experience are rigged such

1:14:16

that you're not supposed to know all of those

1:14:18

answers because you're rewarded

1:14:20

for actually getting into

1:14:22

action like it's tangential

1:14:24

to move follows action like the bricks get

1:14:27

laid you know only two steps in front of

1:14:29

you and you're not allowed to see the whole thing

1:14:31

for heat snap your tent like use

1:14:33

iron man for example or triathlon like

1:14:35

what bites of i get what you can go

1:14:37

around that merry go round forever but ultimately

1:14:40

the best bike is the one that sitting gathering

1:14:42

dust in your garage just do

1:14:44

code you erase with that and you're sick

1:14:46

or out all that stuff as you go and

1:14:49

it becomes the more you do it the more

1:14:51

emotionally engage you get with at

1:14:53

and then it these things tend to develop

1:14:56

a life of a of their own our

1:14:59

and i have

1:15:01

the very specific question for you came

1:15:03

up before we started recording and

1:15:07

unisys the thing i know

1:15:09

very little about sequence you can safely assume

1:15:11

that i can be a very effective stand

1:15:13

in for anyone in the audience who doesn't know this as

1:15:16

zone to training could

1:15:18

you share your thoughts

1:15:21

recommendations cautionary tales anything

1:15:24

the way to zone to twenty press beginning with

1:15:27

a definition because this is something that's

1:15:29

as you know dr peter tier has misspoken

1:15:32

quite widely about what his own

1:15:34

to train

1:15:35

first of all like your conversation with peter

1:15:37

on the subject matter and than pure i know has

1:15:39

gone like a amaze where he though

1:15:41

very deeply into this topic are

1:15:43

fantastic listens and everybody should check

1:15:46

that out of their interested in the subject matter because

1:15:48

my version of explaining this will be

1:15:50

a very lay persons experience

1:15:52

overs another comparative peters very

1:15:55

scientific and an elegant way

1:15:57

to get out exactly yeah

1:15:59

i'm a c huge huge proponent

1:16:01

of zone to training and i believe

1:16:04

that my fidelity

1:16:07

and adoration of the zone to

1:16:09

philosophy is a cornerstone

1:16:12

and how i was able to be successful

1:16:15

in ultra and armstrong won in

1:16:17

my mid forty's so zone to basically

1:16:20

the is a gauge of

1:16:23

the energy output in

1:16:26

a robot exercise that

1:16:29

centrally is the state

1:16:31

in which you are exerting yourself

1:16:33

out essentially a conversational level

1:16:36

you are in your aerobics zone

1:16:39

where your body can make use of

1:16:42

one of two sources of energy glucose

1:16:44

or sat and it is the

1:16:46

level of exertion that lives

1:16:48

in freeze just beneath where you cross

1:16:51

a certain threshold and go into

1:16:53

a more anaerobic state which is

1:16:56

dependence more are exclusively

1:16:59

on like issue in stores

1:17:01

for energy in endurance

1:17:03

training zone to i think

1:17:05

is absolutely crucial for

1:17:07

success because it is the

1:17:09

best way or the methodology

1:17:12

that you leverage to create

1:17:15

this and see which is something that that peter

1:17:17

as talked about souks most people

1:17:21

when they go out for around with say they go

1:17:23

iran or forty five minute run like

1:17:26

three or four times a week or something like that most

1:17:28

people will go out and they

1:17:30

will exert themselves so

1:17:32

that they feel like they had a vigorous not like the run

1:17:34

as fast as they can for

1:17:36

that period of time so that when they're finished

1:17:38

as yeah like i got something out of that don't

1:17:41

to is a level of out for

1:17:44

that is quite a bit the nice that level

1:17:46

of exertion because when you're doing that kind

1:17:48

of mindlessly like i'm just going out for a vigorous

1:17:50

run most typically

1:17:53

you are in what is called the grazer

1:17:56

you're going to hard and too fast

1:17:58

to really they'll up that aerobics

1:18:01

capacity and engine and efficiency

1:18:04

but you're not going hard enough to

1:18:06

develop speed and

1:18:09

the an aerobics kind of capacity

1:18:11

that you're looking for for those really

1:18:13

fast shorter the birth

1:18:16

and in that gray zone which is where

1:18:18

most average people live and breathe

1:18:21

you can get to a certain point but

1:18:23

you will very quickly plateau and

1:18:25

really never well beyond that

1:18:28

the don't to is a is a certain kind of discipline

1:18:30

because it's asking you to hold back

1:18:33

the own to is the level of output

1:18:35

were basically you can get up and do it every

1:18:38

day and quite often you complete the work

1:18:40

out you feel like you didn't do anything

1:18:42

and you you have this impulse to want

1:18:44

to go faster so you have to hold back

1:18:46

from doing that but essentially what

1:18:48

it does is it peter talks

1:18:50

about developed helps you develop the

1:18:53

greater mitochondrial density

1:18:55

in your muscles and an ultra

1:18:57

endurance this is absolutely

1:19:00

crucial because there's nothing about

1:19:02

also endurance that is fast

1:19:05

the has nothing to do with russell power

1:19:07

or speed or any of that

1:19:10

is truly the ability to

1:19:12

efficiently for sister so

1:19:15

the price doesn't go to the fastest guy

1:19:17

goes to the person who slows down the lease

1:19:20

when you live in a zone

1:19:22

to place where your training for

1:19:24

long periods of time developing

1:19:27

this capacity what

1:19:29

you're doing is you're building this foundation

1:19:31

of endurance from the ground the

1:19:34

way that you kind of calculate your zone me

1:19:36

peter talks about this i go

1:19:38

in for proper lactate testing i'm

1:19:40

on a bike and i get my finger practice the

1:19:42

watch go up and you get his heart

1:19:44

rate zone and this war zone where

1:19:46

in you understand like this is

1:19:48

a level of exertion required to like

1:19:50

be right in the sweet spot of all of this

1:19:53

when i began training for these races

1:19:56

my down to face when

1:19:58

i was running was like and

1:20:01

minutes a mile or ten thirty or something like

1:20:03

that but bites rigorously

1:20:05

adhering to this without doing any interval

1:20:07

training or any temper work over

1:20:09

a two year period i got to the point where i could run

1:20:12

seven minute miles at the same heartbreaking

1:20:15

though the same amount of energy

1:20:17

output that level

1:20:19

of increase in speed not by

1:20:21

doing any speed work of by literally

1:20:23

creating efficiencies and developing

1:20:26

that mitochondrial density and

1:20:28

ultimately what you're also doing is

1:20:31

training the body to metabolize

1:20:34

fat for fuel which is your all

1:20:36

day source of energy

1:20:38

like you literally will never run out of it though

1:20:41

in my experience training

1:20:44

a body to metabolize sat for fuel

1:20:46

is really bad it's an end of one and experience

1:20:49

all experience that i had but it's really

1:20:51

much more about how your

1:20:54

training than what it is a are

1:20:56

eating or when you're eating at like

1:20:58

i just found this training to be the best

1:21:00

way to get into that place the

1:21:03

body learning how to metabolize

1:21:05

fuel in that way that that

1:21:07

you can literally continue to go

1:21:09

for as long as you want

1:21:13

there are and certainly i'll i'll

1:21:15

link in the show notes to the conversations

1:21:17

with peter a tier that that

1:21:19

go nobly

1:21:22

, then assessed money or

1:21:24

the oh drag the guy like upgrade yourself

1:21:26

a does get technical by peter

1:21:28

knows his stuff or provide some links to that

1:21:31

we want to to dig and i would you

1:21:33

mind set out in and put it at the end and

1:21:35

i went immediately to the and as as a small

1:21:38

us right other for people who haven't or this

1:21:40

episode basically this episode all the babies

1:21:42

the first question and we launched into

1:21:44

the cellular metabolism involved

1:21:47

with zoom into training and

1:21:49

out mitochondrial diseases such you

1:21:51

know maybe that twenty minute assists

1:21:53

appendix should be put at the end as

1:21:55

an appendix just so that we can get people

1:21:57

in the door so we're not have able to count

1:22:00

the was on their way into the job maybe

1:22:02

on the way out but it

1:22:04

is great it is a great sex assault willing to

1:22:06

that in the show noted comes up like such podcasts

1:22:09

question for you in this may be a dead end

1:22:11

but i'm just curious have you

1:22:14

lord using it ketone

1:22:16

meters

1:22:18

as you have adapted and

1:22:20

increase your my control density

1:22:22

three zone to training in the reason i'm asking is i'm

1:22:24

wondering if you've noticed for

1:22:27

instance this is something i tracked but

1:22:29

without the zone to training in

1:22:31

the case of say it to is really fast how

1:22:34

quickly my body will go to

1:22:37

just over to say it as your

1:22:39

point seven million dollars or something like that get

1:22:41

to the point where i feel like i am

1:22:43

in catalysis to subjectively

1:22:46

through cognitive sharpness a

1:22:48

mental acuity generally have you played

1:22:50

around with that are at all or seen a faster

1:22:52

switch over

1:22:53

now no i haven't i haven't yeah

1:22:56

yeah it would be his widow

1:22:58

would make sense though i would make a lot of sense

1:23:01

how , is it necessary

1:23:03

to do so into training i'm sure it's highly

1:23:06

individual but does penny with a broad brush

1:23:08

to begin to recruit seven the benefits

1:23:10

that we're talking about yeah to

1:23:12

keeter answer this question and question

1:23:15

believe he gave her gave window

1:23:17

of something like three months or something like three

1:23:19

six months six would say that

1:23:21

this say that like the way to

1:23:24

hack yourself to success because it requires

1:23:27

a significant investment in time

1:23:30

like you have to play the long game to really really

1:23:32

the huge benefits of

1:23:35

this type of training it's not an overnight kind

1:23:37

of thanks i started to realize

1:23:39

gains maybe i started realize gains

1:23:41

maybe around six months into

1:23:43

it but it didn't really

1:23:45

coroner the fall buffet

1:23:48

of what it was

1:23:50

availing me for like it took two years

1:23:52

like basically what i'm saying like a

1:23:55

longer you do it the more efficiency

1:23:57

become and then the longer

1:23:59

you can go well that further

1:24:01

you can sustain a certain level

1:24:03

of effort and these up adaptations

1:24:06

are like not overnight but i think it's

1:24:08

like when you're looking at like it's not like

1:24:10

what are you gonna do this year by like three years

1:24:13

if you're on like a three year plan i

1:24:15

think really doubling down on this

1:24:17

philosophy there's so much the

1:24:20

said to it depends on what your

1:24:22

goal is to

1:24:24

figuring that out i have used after as dig

1:24:26

into that curiosity were talking about earlier

1:24:29

and does certainly part of obese

1:24:31

know thyself still working on that the

1:24:34

get in the grades own side note for like two

1:24:36

years which is probably christmas as

1:24:38

of explanatory backs said there are three

1:24:41

things and least three things but three

1:24:43

things i would love to hear

1:24:45

you speak to and i'll i'll let you events in

1:24:47

buffet so well i'll throw out three

1:24:50

then you can pick whichever one you want to tackle

1:24:52

first so one

1:24:54

is sleeping in said q

1:24:58

is taking a four months off the grid

1:25:00

every year and

1:25:02

then number re

1:25:06

is your daily architecture so

1:25:09

not committing to certain things are focusing

1:25:11

on certain things up to

1:25:13

twelve noon which which

1:25:16

one of those would you like to

1:25:18

begin to are we could go any direction

1:25:20

you want i mean we can start with the tents that

1:25:22

certain tests as a half s

1:25:25

i've been sleeping

1:25:27

outside and a chance for a couple years

1:25:29

at this point i think a little over two years

1:25:32

i absolutely love it it's

1:25:34

really bad the unofficial

1:25:36

to my sleep and is something that started

1:25:39

from frustration

1:25:42

over my increasing inability

1:25:44

to get russell slumber

1:25:48

and the impetus like kind of a

1:25:50

original impetus was my

1:25:52

wife like the bedroom

1:25:54

warm i like the bedroom colds

1:25:56

i'm sure a lot of people can relate to this

1:25:59

employees and if dynamics and

1:26:01

no matter how much we would try to compromise

1:26:03

to make it good for both

1:26:05

of us the really would always

1:26:07

be bundled up under a ton of covers and

1:26:10

i'm sleeping on top of the covers like sweating

1:26:12

and them neither of us sleeps and we get up

1:26:14

and were not happy we have a flat

1:26:16

you've been a my house i have a flat roof on my house

1:26:19

and one summer evening we

1:26:21

did a sleep over on the roof with the kids

1:26:23

and we have a flat wall where we would project

1:26:25

movies and were like eating popcorn and we all just kind

1:26:27

of slept on the roof that nights at

1:26:30

a sleeping bags and i woke up the next day

1:26:32

to ceiling amazing like from

1:26:34

that outdoor air and the cool

1:26:36

like desert era of los angeles like

1:26:39

i can't remember the last time i slept so well side

1:26:42

i told julia like i'm just going to sleep snuff

1:26:44

route suggested to nights and it really

1:26:46

began from there and i just fell in love

1:26:48

with being out there something about being

1:26:50

outdoors that just agrees with me and the kind

1:26:53

of cool evening air

1:26:56

i would wake up covered in condensation

1:26:58

like completely was like are at i got to get a chance

1:27:00

of and i got a tense the town was on the

1:27:02

roof think our windy and with the tend to the ground

1:27:06

i've really just the enjoyed it

1:27:08

and as i get older like i'm

1:27:10

so protective of my sleep

1:27:12

and it's so important to me that

1:27:14

i get those eight hours because

1:27:17

i know what it feels like not to get them and

1:27:19

i see it still eludes me quite often

1:27:21

like i really struggle with their spats

1:27:24

it's been a huge benefit in

1:27:27

the quality of my sleep

1:27:29

and enjoy

1:27:32

people always ask like a well you know they

1:27:34

think i'm having like some kind of site with my

1:27:36

one for something like that like this we

1:27:38

have ours quality time i promise

1:27:40

you like everything is fine and my marriage we've

1:27:42

been together for very long time so it's all good

1:27:46

i also think it's been a cool stoic

1:27:49

practice cause i

1:27:51

live in a really nice house in the i

1:27:54

have nice things but i actually

1:27:56

prefer to sleep and the tents and

1:27:58

there's something about that were it

1:28:01

gives me comfort like if everything went terribly

1:28:04

wrong and i lost everything

1:28:06

like i know that happy

1:28:08

sleeping in a tent and i

1:28:10

don't really need that much ultimately

1:28:13

and that that's been really

1:28:15

tired nice in

1:28:18

hold the dating a little bit of a minimalist

1:28:20

sensibility about how i live

1:28:24

he decided being blown off the roof while

1:28:26

you're safe for him see probably not a good idea

1:28:28

i second that use not

1:28:30

lions around those parts

1:28:33

we do and i i go running

1:28:35

and all the trails all rounds in

1:28:37

a where i live in santa monica mountains i

1:28:39

know there there i've never seen one that

1:28:41

they're definitely there where are our property

1:28:44

as fan so i see all okay

1:28:46

he is a surplus

1:28:48

and they're they're they're real bad

1:28:50

the or not we'll see

1:28:52

i remember this experience in northern

1:28:54

california up by nap i

1:28:56

went on this hiking trip and

1:28:58

everybody at the same time got the feeling

1:29:00

that they were being watched and i was like yeah

1:29:03

we summarize a tense into that this

1:29:06

, lies everywhere forgive

1:29:09

me but a i wanna know be my

1:29:11

melissa's will be annoyed if be annoyed ask the

1:29:13

you you did a lot of trial and error

1:29:15

with head and set up and everything

1:29:18

else what does your gear look like currently

1:29:20

after two years of trying it out yeah

1:29:23

one i'm actually at a at a turning point

1:29:25

with all of this i've been sleeping in like a

1:29:27

nor say stat that i've had for a while but

1:29:30

the these tents tend to only last

1:29:32

maybe four or five months at most

1:29:34

of the sun just beat them up and then they turned

1:29:36

into like tissue paper so i'm constantly

1:29:39

getting new chance at finally i was like this ridiculous

1:29:42

so i just bought like a proper

1:29:44

canvas like glamping tent and

1:29:46

we haven't constructed it yeah i'm having

1:29:48

a duck billed not going to make it like

1:29:50

kind of like a cool outdoor structure

1:29:53

so that's the next chapter in all this

1:29:55

bad the last two years it's been a

1:29:57

series of you know basically yeah

1:29:59

so pence in the backyard i have

1:30:01

a mattress in there so not sleeping on the ground

1:30:04

and tons of blankets which is part of the appeal

1:30:06

like there was frost when i woke up this morning as

1:30:08

great as a fantastic last nice

1:30:10

but a key thing that at that i have

1:30:13

been using for a couple years as gravity blanket

1:30:16

which i absolutely love and of you

1:30:18

have any the i have the i have one

1:30:20

at it i have stairs so what why

1:30:23

what is the gravity blanket and why

1:30:25

do you find out gravity

1:30:27

blanket is a awaited blanket

1:30:30

there's different types of them but essentially their

1:30:32

quilted with like your

1:30:34

own of sand and them are different types of

1:30:37

of heavy material so and they come

1:30:39

in different ways so i think mine is

1:30:41

like a twenty five pound blanket

1:30:43

so imagine that experience

1:30:45

of being at the dentist and you're getting

1:30:47

an x ray and they put that like lead

1:30:50

matt on your chest and

1:30:52

think is that a pleasant experience for

1:30:54

you are an unpleasant experience for you

1:30:56

and when i think about that i

1:30:58

can i'm like it like there's something about

1:31:00

a swat enclosure is sciences

1:31:03

have been protected you know it's like

1:31:05

calling my sympathetic nervous

1:31:07

system that i'm safe and

1:31:09

i believe i could be wrong but i

1:31:11

believe that that was the original

1:31:14

use case for the gravity blanket

1:31:17

to treat people with

1:31:19

autism who have trouble calming

1:31:22

down and it had this impact of like

1:31:24

soothing them and that's certainly

1:31:26

been my experience using it and i i love

1:31:29

is it at night then on top of your

1:31:31

blankets right

1:31:34

so tense

1:31:36

check any other modifications

1:31:38

that use mid tier tinting experience

1:31:41

the my now i mean i were an i

1:31:43

have a mask

1:31:46

we know that whatever my mask of

1:31:48

course the tim ferris i forgot what i

1:31:50

saw my son asked ah

1:31:53

the mind folds or like the mine fault

1:31:55

our minds will degrade yeah right

1:31:59

check

1:32:01

the thank you for indulging that inquiring

1:32:04

minds what's know of course and

1:32:07

you know for for people who watch

1:32:09

another example of

1:32:12

this type of stuff practice different type of time

1:32:14

frame but kevin kelly his been

1:32:16

on the podcast least two times arguably

1:32:19

the world's most interesting man see

1:32:21

will sweet in his living

1:32:23

room he in a sleeping bag

1:32:26

the surviving on as i recall

1:32:29

instant oatmeal and instant

1:32:31

coffee for the i got a

1:32:34

wiki year two weeks a year just

1:32:36

as a little reminders that all is

1:32:38

well everything's fine but

1:32:40

, like it if slipping sleeping outside

1:32:42

of a lot more personalized said

1:32:44

daily architecture or weekly architecture

1:32:47

just schedule wise seems

1:32:50

like you rarely schedule

1:32:52

certain types of things before new

1:32:54

and your time could you speak to

1:32:57

speak to that and perhaps just tell the

1:32:59

genesis story like how and when did you begin

1:33:02

doing because that's quite

1:33:04

a that is hunter indicated

1:33:06

if you doing eighty hour weeks it's

1:33:08

so disoriented there was a transition

1:33:11

yeah of course yeah that that

1:33:13

didn't really become a possibility

1:33:15

and so i was self employed and i

1:33:17

think i start started practicing

1:33:20

yeah

1:33:21

originally when i was writing finding

1:33:23

also act as i needed and he is quiet hours

1:33:25

before work began to just be focused

1:33:27

on that important thing and

1:33:30

, just built upon it from there so

1:33:32

essentially an early to bed early riser

1:33:34

got a bad like around nine and

1:33:37

i generally get up around

1:33:40

five five two five and six

1:33:42

the early hours are are really

1:33:45

protected as my own

1:33:47

time so morning

1:33:49

meditation journaling

1:33:52

writing creative projects

1:33:55

know meetings no phone calls like

1:33:57

certainly like we're doing this podcast this

1:33:59

more so i'll make exceptions like

1:34:01

we're doing this in the morning but as a general

1:34:04

rule i try not to commit

1:34:06

to anything outside of those practices

1:34:09

for that initial phase of the day

1:34:11

and so after i finish those practices and i

1:34:14

i do my training in the morning and

1:34:16

i try to get that done before i go

1:34:18

into the workday how

1:34:22

frequently would you say you succeed

1:34:25

if you play and i not to ever

1:34:27

expect it to be one hundred percent i'm just curious

1:34:30

what you would say it looks like and

1:34:32

when you get something because we're talking about the death

1:34:34

by thousand cuts earlier when

1:34:36

you get really tempting what

1:34:39

do you do may like sometimes you make exceptions

1:34:41

but if you if you made all the exceptions and

1:34:43

the schedule wouldn't work i have three of people

1:34:45

priced us earlier in the day isn't

1:34:48

so what's your would you say you're hit rate

1:34:50

is and had you contend

1:34:52

with the the temptations

1:34:55

i would say outside of situations where i'm

1:34:57

traveling my hit rates about eighty

1:34:59

five percent so i'm

1:35:02

pretty i'm pretty good yeah and also

1:35:04

the people that i generally work with like all

1:35:06

know this know so that was

1:35:08

awesome and i'm asked to do things during those hours

1:35:11

because they know and i've gotten much

1:35:13

better at just not agreeing to

1:35:15

do stuff conference calls him

1:35:17

cause and stuff like that during that period of time butts

1:35:19

if somebody is in the uk or in an

1:35:22

hour a very radically different time zone

1:35:24

like there are situations where it's like okay

1:35:26

i'm going to be the huge pain in the ass or am i gonna

1:35:28

just make an exception see

1:35:31

, so make them as him going eleven pm

1:35:33

to see fast yeah like a says as

1:35:35

he was a people pleaser for that and that's the

1:35:38

war that i'm always waiting like a

1:35:40

healthy boundary vs like that desire

1:35:42

to be light is like the battleground

1:35:45

in my head and so on

1:35:47

pretty good about that the death by thousand

1:35:49

cuts shows up in other

1:35:52

areas of my life particularly like

1:35:55

regarding stuff that the do

1:35:57

or isn't gonna happen for a long period

1:35:59

of time that's far enough out on the calendar

1:36:01

all pretty much agree to anything such

1:36:03

an advance

1:36:05

, then i day arrives and you're like what

1:36:08

am i doing i'm never doing this again and

1:36:10

then the following week your you know reaping

1:36:12

the same thing so that's

1:36:14

like my mount everest right now and listen

1:36:16

these are problems of are problems

1:36:19

of their the results of you

1:36:21

don't working very hard to create something that

1:36:23

is interesting to people and so you

1:36:25

get offered cool stuff and i wanna take

1:36:27

advantage of all the cool stuff like i know what it's

1:36:29

like to not people

1:36:32

interested in you know having me involved

1:36:34

in cool stuff but at what cost

1:36:36

right and it's really hard

1:36:39

to do that it's like do you want to go do

1:36:41

this amazing thank your like one hundred percent

1:36:43

i do the what

1:36:45

are you really trying to accomplish where's

1:36:48

your focus vested and

1:36:51

calibrating those opportunities

1:36:53

against the things that are

1:36:55

most important in your life and in i

1:36:57

for kids like i have been i've other responsibilities

1:37:00

outside my professional responsibilities are

1:37:02

important to me so i'm not always great

1:37:04

at making those decisions but i think i'd

1:37:06

like to think i'm getting a little bit better but

1:37:09

eighty five percent here it's really good that

1:37:12

doesn't offer the pre pre noon

1:37:14

saying that's not worse like fielding

1:37:16

all incoming you start

1:37:18

out as a good protected zone a

1:37:20

snippet decadence did i i

1:37:22

i am

1:37:24

then no surprise to anyone spare

1:37:26

say by how people think about

1:37:28

scheduling and time i know

1:37:30

you've been doing some

1:37:33

work out at to laird hamilton

1:37:35

and every resource place in the pool

1:37:38

here xp t and all that which is side

1:37:42

note on sleep i have probably never

1:37:44

slept better than after a really long

1:37:46

work out with weights in the pool of my god

1:37:49

it's incredible they have it's just

1:37:51

amazing and z as

1:37:53

such the unique lives

1:37:55

and the way that they live

1:37:58

their lives your the

1:38:00

independently and they

1:38:02

came to my also because as thinking

1:38:04

about rick rubin the legendary

1:38:06

music producers been on this podcasts

1:38:09

who also lusher where lusher is now but

1:38:12

and spend time with them and has his little corner

1:38:15

the pool where he does his work out but

1:38:17

rick as far as i can

1:38:19

tell basically doesn't schedule ninety

1:38:22

nine percent of life is unscheduled scuttling

1:38:24

yeah like ping me and if it works it'll work

1:38:27

as i really admire his blood is do

1:38:29

that i haven't been able to ace

1:38:31

that's at this point

1:38:33

the hence the questions about

1:38:36

all of this

1:38:37

the month off the grid every year is

1:38:39

this was go to the genesis story

1:38:41

for this how and

1:38:43

why this

1:38:46

is a priority

1:38:47

so you mentioned earlier on this extended

1:38:50

period of of financial dismantlement

1:38:52

that we endured as a family and it

1:38:55

was very painful extended period of time

1:38:57

where i really struggled

1:39:00

to figure out how to provide

1:39:02

for my family in a meaningful way

1:39:05

it's now all solved and everything's great

1:39:08

but i think there was a significant amount of

1:39:10

ptsd that i experienced from

1:39:12

that cause it was very emasculating

1:39:14

and scary for me once

1:39:16

things started functioning properly

1:39:19

and working a

1:39:21

lot of my work hours and tendencies

1:39:23

kind of the forefront they

1:39:26

became so focused

1:39:28

on building this thing and

1:39:31

protecting it the making sure

1:39:33

that it was providing for

1:39:35

my family that i started

1:39:38

to kind of overlook the principles

1:39:40

that put me in a position to created