0:00

The private sector has a really massive opportunity

0:02

to help with one of the world's most pressing crises

0:05

and given that the crisis is so widespread

0:08

with over 25 million displaced individuals,

0:10

we have to consider our responsibility

0:13

as a nation of immigrants to see

0:15

how can we support this next wave of immigration.

0:17

Whether migrants, refugees, asylees to

0:20

ensure that they can really integrate not

0:22

only into our society, but also into our

0:24

economy to build a better life.

0:31

[Music plays] Hola Hola, it's Gaby Acosta

0:33

And me, Jenelle Acosta. We're high

0:35

school sweethearts on a journey to be better allies.

0:39

You're listening to The Way We Lead were we talk

0:42

about inclusive leadership allyship and

0:44

advocacy with folks across identities,

0:46

industries and experiences.

0:49

If you're new here, Welcome! You can follow

0:51

us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter

0:53

using the handle @thewaywelead.

0:56

We're glad you're here. Let's jump in. [Music Ends]

1:03

I'm Dalia Katan. I'm a freelance strategist.

1:05

I help companies think through

1:07

how to grow and innovate through human-centered design

1:09

lens. I'm also a published author

1:12

on the future of work space, on diversity inclusion

1:14

and a huge advocate for how inclusion

1:17

can be used to not only improve business

1:19

outcomes but also improve societal cohesion.

1:21

So my thing is I'm always

1:23

really interested in why people

1:25

got to where they are today, why people believe,

1:27

think, do the things that they do. Um

1:30

, so I'm curious from your own personal

1:32

experience, why did

1:35

you want to get into D&I in the first place?

1:37

Mm, yeah, it's a great question

1:40

and I think in a way I was kind of like primed

1:43

for this from childhood. Um,

1:46

I come from a very diverse family. My mom,

1:48

her side were refugees in 1989

1:51

from Central Asia. My Dad was

1:53

a , um , also sort of refugee,

1:55

but he came as an immigrant to the U.S. Uh

1:57

, he was a Middle Eastern Jew and he

1:59

came to chase the American dream. So

2:02

there was always a ton of

2:04

language and food and culture and

2:07

music and tradition in my house that was like

2:09

totally different from one another. So

2:12

I'd always kind of been fascinated by like what

2:14

happens when you put all those things together,

2:17

like when you coalesce all that diversity within

2:19

a person or a family or a community or

2:22

workplace in this case. Um , so yeah, I

2:24

feel like it was kind of meant to

2:26

be in a way, but

2:28

fast forward 20 years , um,

2:31

I am writing my undergraduate thesis at Princeton

2:33

and that's when I really started to explore

2:36

ethnic integration, diversity and inclusion. I

2:38

was actually focusing on Israel, Palestine

2:41

at the time. And I

2:43

remember being there for

2:45

one of my research sprints, interviewing

2:48

Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs, Palestinian

2:51

Arabs, and it was so , um,

2:53

heartwarming and , and moving to me that

2:56

every side kind of saw me, inside

2:58

I say with air quotes, saw

3:00

me as is one of theirs and

3:03

I'd never fully appreciated that both my

3:05

name and my image as a

3:07

Middle Eastern Jew was fully Middle Eastern and fully

3:09

Jewish. And so there was that

3:12

immediate trust that was built , uh,

3:14

with everyone that I spoke

3:16

to. And I kind of realized at that point like, okay,

3:19

maybe I'm meant to do some work in the inclusion

3:21

space in the integration space. Um

3:24

, maybe literally I'm meant to do

3:26

bridge building in the Middle East. Like maybe that's

3:28

kind of what my image and my

3:30

, uh , family name kind of gave me as a gift

3:33

. But fast forward, again,

3:35

I was at that time an innovation

3:38

consultant at Deloitte and Roblin and

3:41

there was a social impact competition in the New

3:43

York office. So a peer and I entered,

3:45

we wanted to tackle several of the UN's

3:48

sustainable development goals. Um,

3:50

I think we had chosen a decent

3:52

work, economic growth , um , economic

3:55

equality or reducing inequalities. And

3:57

so we run won, we won our regional

3:59

competition. We were semi-finalists

4:02

nationally.

4:02

That's amazing.

4:03

I think. Yeah. And I think that for us

4:05

is kind of the launch pad that we needed to really , uh,

4:08

take on this passion project and

4:10

then later secure a $450,000

4:13

grant to build out our various refugee

4:15

workplace integration programs.

4:17

Wow.

4:18

Yeah. For anyone who's a corporate leader

4:20

who's listening here, like competitions

4:22

work and it's definitely a great way to

4:25

engage people outside of their day to day and

4:27

bring more innovation to a company so long

4:30

as there are resources to support that continued

4:32

work past the competition. And that was

4:34

kind of a uphill battle for us. Even

4:36

with the competition there.

4:38

This, this was a competition at

4:40

Deloitte to, that

4:43

you participated in with a

4:45

coworker that also worked at Deloitte?

4:48

Yep.

4:48

Wow.

4:48

We were both junior staff and kind

4:50

of wanted to shake things up a little

4:52

bit and do something different from just helping

4:54

companies make more money.

4:56

Yeah. That's amazing. And was this, so you,

4:58

you did this at Deloitte and was

5:00

that sort of the caveat for you to

5:03

write your book and everything that came afterwards

5:05

or, or was this sort of part of your journey

5:07

and there was more before that?

5:09

I think it was a big inflection

5:11

point for us. So it was,

5:13

again, I mentioned , um , we'd raised a

5:16

huge chunk of money to conduct the research

5:18

with Deloitte. And so that was like

5:20

really great cause we had partnered up with the Tent Partnership

5:22

for Refugees. Uh, we had

5:24

, uh, engaged a network of different

5:27

corporations who were doing really great work in this space

5:29

already. And so to be able to

5:31

have a corporations

5:34

network and financial support to

5:36

go forth and, you know, build those

5:38

relationships, gather all those

5:40

best practices , um , package

5:42

them up into a report that other

5:44

corporate leaders and employees could

5:46

use in their day to day. I think that

5:48

for us was a huge turning point.

5:50

Wow, that's great.

5:51

That's phenomenal. And this is such important

5:54

work that we're going to dig into

5:56

in a minute, but I'm if you can pull

5:58

us back and for those

6:00

listeners who aren't familiar

6:03

with the diversity and inclusion space, can

6:05

you break it down a little bit for

6:07

us in a way that anybody

6:09

can understand? What is

6:11

inclusion? What is

6:14

integration? What do those mean and

6:16

why is it important to understand?

6:18

I think that's a great question. And my team and I

6:21

did a lot of back and forth trying to define this

6:23

because it is such a broad topic. Um,

6:25

where we landed was

6:27

we really see workplace inclusion

6:30

as a two way process where

6:32

both employers and employees are

6:34

jointly building a multicultural

6:36

environment that enables both the

6:38

organization and the individuals

6:41

that comprise it to thrive. So

6:43

if you look at a composition of an organization, they're

6:46

really like three main configurations you might

6:48

see from a diversity lens, there's homogenous

6:50

or monolithic where most people

6:52

kind of fit a similar profile. There

6:55

is a diverse or pluralistic

6:57

where diversity, as defined

7:00

by a number of different characteristics

7:02

such as race, gender,

7:04

age, physical ability, orientation,

7:07

life experiences, personality, etc . Um

7:09

, all those different characteristics are

7:11

present in numbers, but

7:13

minorities tend to be concentrated either

7:15

within a certain role such as administrative

7:18

or certain level in the company such as

7:20

entry level. Um , and you don't really see much

7:23

distribution across the hierarchy of

7:25

a company. And then you have multicultural

7:27

where companies not only have

7:29

diversity but also value it and celebrate

7:31

it are willing to utilize it and encourage

7:34

it. And that's when you see true inclusion

7:36

, uh, equal opportunities, social cohesion.

7:39

And you see companies that engage minorities

7:41

in ways that incorporate them without losing

7:43

their distinctiveness and their intersectional

7:45

identities. Um, and also without

7:48

denying them participation fully across the spectrum

7:50

of what a company offers.

7:52

Hmm . I, so that last one obviously is

7:54

something that we are definitely

7:57

striving for to help promote

7:59

in this podcast. That's something that we really care

8:01

about, not just in our work

8:03

environments but are also in our communities.

8:06

So I'm wondering, based on all of your research

8:08

and, and the conclusions that you garnered

8:11

from all of your reports, what

8:13

does it really take to, in

8:16

your opinion, what does it take to make

8:18

this work in a

8:20

work environment or in a community?

8:23

Sure. Um, the, what

8:25

does it take part, there's a, there's the theory

8:27

behind it and then there's the, what you can do in

8:29

practice. Um, and

8:32

I think sharing the theory behind it is really interesting

8:34

because it can apply, it can be applied so broadly.

8:36

Um , and definitely there are more tactical things that employers

8:39

and also non minority employees

8:41

can use to create a culture of inclusion.

8:43

But I have a feeling we'll circle back to that later in the interview.

8:47

Um , but as far as the, what it takes in

8:49

theory , uh , this was actually the premise

8:51

of my original thesis at Princeton.

8:53

There is a psychology or sociology

8:56

theory called intergroup contact theory. Um

8:58

, it was first designed in

9:01

I think the 50s by a psychologist

9:03

named Gordon Allport. But it essentially

9:06

states that if you meet five conditions, you're

9:08

guaranteed to have each, quote

9:11

unquote, against side view the other

9:14

in a more positive light and eventually

9:16

reduce prejudice and improved social cohesion. So

9:19

those five conditions are feeling

9:21

equal status in the environment, having

9:24

a shared goal, working

9:27

together toward that shared goal , uh

9:29

, as opposed to competition , uh,

9:32

having the support of authorities and coming together

9:35

and then finally having the potential to build friendship that

9:37

extends outside of that environment. So

9:40

if you think about that , uh, in a

9:42

number of applications that could be afterschool

9:45

activities, that could be a sports

9:47

leagues , that could be the workplace. Um,

9:50

and I think applying it to the workplace

9:52

and really making sure that work environments

9:54

meet all those things, which in essence they

9:56

already do, right? Everyone's equal

9:59

at a company, if done right. Um,

10:02

even within hierarchical structures , uh,

10:04

you have a shared goal, whether it's the mission of

10:06

the company or it's the success of the company

10:09

and you're working together toward it. To

10:11

answer your question of what it takes in theory

10:14

to make a work environment more inclusive, if

10:16

you're able to design your workplace

10:19

culture and workplace practices in a way that

10:21

ensures those five conditions are met, I

10:23

think you're on the right track for creating inclusion,

10:25

for creating cohesion in the workplace.

10:28

So that's in theory, and what

10:30

does that look like in practice?

10:33

Yeah, so in practice , um,

10:35

it really depends on who you're talking to,

10:37

right? Um, there are leaders

10:39

across the company in different roles

10:41

and different levels that each play a part. So

10:44

, um, I'm going to focus

10:46

on some of the practices that we identified

10:48

during our refugee inclusion research. But

10:51

I think this is beneficial to all employees

10:53

and applies to all minorities more broadly. Broadly

10:56

speaking, I think executive leadership

10:58

can be visible champions of diversity and inclusion.

11:01

Uh , they can design inclusion into their accountability

11:04

metrics and even designate

11:06

champions for different diversity groups. So for

11:08

example, a champion for refugee inclusion

11:10

is one of the things that we proposed . Um,

11:13

those champions can serve as advocates

11:15

for inclusion efforts. They're responsible

11:17

for deeply understanding the needs

11:19

of those diversity groups , um, and

11:21

they work with HR and managers to actually create initiatives

11:24

and track impact. Then you have the

11:26

managers and the HR leaders who can

11:28

drive the design and delivery of those various initiatives

11:31

where relevant , um, and share best practices

11:34

both within the company and also to other companies.

11:36

I think that cross company learning is

11:38

super, super important in the space of diversity and inclusion.

11:41

Um , and then finally, leaders should 100%

11:44

engage minority employees and not just sharing

11:46

their perspectives after programs are

11:48

designed but including them before

11:50

programs are designed and during the implementation

11:52

of those programs. Because there's a lot of feedback, um

11:55

, and if you want to be true to human-centered design,

11:57

including the people that you want to design for

11:59

early on in the design process is so

12:02

crucial to designing for that audience.

12:04

Two things that really stood out to me there was one

12:06

, uh, including other companies.

12:08

I think that that's so vital because,

12:11

with the employer that I work for , um,

12:13

we're very unique in what we do in a lot

12:16

of ways. And so we sort of feel like

12:18

we've become this bubble. Um, and

12:20

it's actually very hard for us to get outside

12:22

perspective. And so we

12:25

are constantly in a state of trying to understand,

12:28

can outsiders help us be

12:30

better at what we do? And I think that there's a lot

12:32

of value in that. So I think that that's great. And

12:34

then the third piece that you were mentioning was

12:36

having the

12:40

population that you're trying to get

12:42

involved to actually have them a part of the

12:44

conversation of the policies that you are creating.

12:47

Is that what you're saying?

12:48

Yeah, exactly. Engaging them early.

12:50

Right. I think that that part gets missed

12:53

so often. Um, cause I tend

12:55

to work with leaders

12:57

who are relatively new to leadership

12:59

and management and the thought

13:01

process tends to be we

13:04

need to make these decisions as a

13:07

leadership or a management team rather than

13:09

including outsiders in. And

13:11

I think that that really stems from this fear

13:14

that it's not going to go well

13:16

or you're going to get too much push back or it's not going to

13:18

go the way that you want it to. But in my

13:20

experience, I've always found that when you include the people

13:23

that what you're building is for, you

13:25

actually get a better outcome and you also

13:27

get more buy-in into what

13:29

is going to be put in place in the first place.

13:31

Totally. I 100% agree with that.

13:34

That's actually something, so until

13:36

very recently, Jenelle and I worked at the same

13:38

company and a

13:41

few years ago we launched our first inaugural

13:44

diversity inclusion committee. And it was

13:46

all built from various

13:48

leaders from across different levels

13:50

and identities in

13:52

the entire organization. And it was volunteer

13:55

base , but it was a lot of dedication

13:57

and hard work to dig deep

14:00

into these topics of how do we

14:02

ensure that we're building an inclusive community.

14:04

One of the major things that we did was bring in

14:06

an outside agency that was focused

14:08

primarily on the analytics

14:11

and the data and, and sourcing

14:14

interviews from other folks within

14:16

the company to understand better

14:18

what it was that we needed and what it was

14:20

that we were lacking. Um , and also

14:22

what, where, we were doing really well where

14:25

I would say there were several spaces where

14:27

we were doing incredibly well, but

14:30

the fact that we were listening

14:32

to our own employees I think was really critical

14:35

and I don't think that we would have

14:37

been as successful with what happened

14:40

this year was we launched our

14:42

employee resource groups. So those

14:44

identity based organizations that

14:46

help create a supportive environment

14:48

for folks who are LGBTQ

14:51

or , um , based on

14:53

their ethnicity or gender,

14:56

whatever it might be. And

14:58

I don't think it would have gone as well if

15:01

we hadn't had that buy in from both the committee

15:03

itself and also, later on,

15:06

from the entire populace , the employee community,

15:08

because they had been interviewed and they said very

15:11

loudly like, we want this, we actually want

15:13

to follow through.

15:15

Congratulations, first of all. I think what you

15:17

created is super impressive

15:19

and also super meaningful and important.

15:22

Um, so cool to hear about that. But yeah,

15:24

I totally agree. I think there were a few really great

15:26

points in what you said and there's the listening portion,

15:28

right? Um, and it's not just

15:30

to what employees are saying, but also what they're not

15:32

saying, which is why I think it's great that you guys

15:34

brought in an external team to like

15:37

actually come and analyze, I'm

15:39

not sure how much ethnographic research that they did, but I'm

15:41

sure they went around and spoke to people

15:43

one on one and kind of got their , um,

15:46

confidential input that

15:48

made the program so successful. So that's great.

15:50

But then there's also the point about, you know, you really

15:52

do need buy in from the entire

15:55

employee base and managers alike.

15:58

And I think once you engage all employees

16:00

and not just the minority populations that you're talking

16:02

to, you're creating a culture where, you

16:05

know, we're all family. We're all here to take care of each other.

16:07

We really feel like our voice matters,

16:10

which, whether you're a minority or not,

16:12

I think is so important to creating a company that

16:14

, um , keeps their employees

16:17

for longer than just one or two years, which is

16:19

the normal turnover in most industries. Um,

16:22

so yeah.

16:24

What does it take in terms of convincing

16:27

an organization that's been more established

16:30

and has already scaled and has a large organization

16:33

that is, quote unquote, successful

16:36

in a business case to convince

16:38

them that it's worth

16:40

investing the time and the energy

16:42

and resources to developing

16:45

inclusion and diversity initiatives?

16:48

Yeah. And I think it's especially difficult for more mature

16:50

companies that already have diversity and inclusion

16:52

programs. Um, who,

16:54

you know, like you said, it's already working our

16:57

businesses doing great. Like we've checked all the boxes

16:59

to get them to see how the definition

17:02

of diversity and inclusion has changed over the past

17:04

five years, even past two years. Um,

17:07

is difficult. I know this often follows

17:10

to grassroots efforts , um

17:12

, but going around and getting a poll

17:14

of , uh, the people that you

17:16

want to design new programs for I think

17:18

is a great place to start. Um, seeing

17:21

how people feel , uh, the

17:23

diversity and inclusion programs that are existing

17:26

tailored to them or don't. There

17:28

was a really interesting study that was recently published,

17:30

um, 25%

17:32

of Deloitte employees left because

17:34

they wanted to find more inclusive workplaces.

17:37

And for a company that puts so much emphasis

17:39

on diversity and inclusion, to hear that

17:41

is like pretty alarming. Right? So I

17:43

think talking to

17:45

employees and getting feedback often

17:48

and you know, kind of getting a lay

17:50

of the land of how people feel

17:52

current programs do or don't

17:55

include them or, or

17:57

give them what they need, I think is a

18:00

great data point to give to leadership

18:02

at a company and say, Hey, well this actually isn't

18:05

working the way that it used to. Like let's take the

18:07

time to think why and what can we do differently?

18:10

Right. It's one thing to have

18:13

maybe the groups or the

18:15

policies in place for diversity inclusion, but if you're

18:17

not checking in on how they're going, then

18:20

you don't know how to adapt and you don't know how they're affecting

18:22

your employees. That's really interesting.

18:24

Yeah. Yeah.

18:26

That's actually one of the questions I

18:28

really struggled with when we were launching

18:31

our employee resource groups. What are

18:33

the, the KPIs, the key

18:35

performance indicators or the

18:38

analytics, the data that we should be looking

18:40

at to determine whether something is successful.

18:43

Because once it's launched, you know, it

18:45

can be easy to say, okay, it's

18:48

live, it's happening. Look at all the

18:50

activities going on. We

18:52

are so inclusive, but how

18:54

do we measure success when it comes to

18:56

a diversity inclusion initiative ?

18:58

Yeah, that's a great question. And KPI's

19:00

are changing all the time in the D&I space.

19:04

Um, for me it always comes back to the

19:06

basic line of a simple

19:08

poll of employees asking them,

19:10

do you feel like you can bring your whole self to work?

19:13

And as that question changes

19:15

and as the responses to that change over time,

19:18

I think that's when you know that the impact that

19:20

diversity inclusion programs seek to have

19:22

are getting less and less efficient over time. So I

19:25

always come back to that because I think there's

19:27

so many ways to, to kind of measure

19:30

impact and , and track that , uh,

19:33

in ways that are serving the business. But

19:35

I think just going back to is it serving

19:38

the people in the business is the

19:40

best way to do it.

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20:21

One of the areas that you've focused on is

20:24

, uh , refugees in the workplace.

20:28

Um, so as, as a leader

20:30

at my organization , uh , I've

20:32

always been very thoughtful about

20:34

the makeup of my team. We used to have

20:36

a lot more control over the people that we could hire

20:38

on our team. It's changed a little bit, but when I

20:40

had that control, I

20:42

was always paying pretty close attention to

20:44

what was the makeup of my team, was my team

20:47

diverse , uh, not only in race

20:49

and sexual orientation and ethnicity,

20:51

in gender. Um, but

20:53

refugee was never something

20:56

that I would consider or keep in mind

20:58

when I was looking at that. So what,

21:00

what kinds of organizations or industries

21:03

does refugee status specifically

21:06

impact and how?

21:08

Yeah, and I , I want to point out that refugee

21:11

status is a legal status and

21:13

no more, right at the end of the day, they're still

21:15

human beings with incredible backgrounds and

21:18

um , skills that are a value to all

21:20

types of organizations. So I

21:22

would say this impacts every organization

21:25

and every industry because refugees

21:27

come from all sorts of professional backgrounds, whether

21:30

business, medicine, manufacturing,

21:33

science, technology, you name it. So

21:35

if companies are constantly seeking top talent,

21:38

super practically the refugee population

21:40

offers a really great pool of highly

21:43

skilled, highly motivated, um, super

21:45

loyal and super hardworking talent

21:48

to pull from. And I think aside from

21:50

the business need alone, there's also the question

21:53

of responsibility. And

21:55

you know, I think the private sector has a really massive opportunity

21:57

to help with one of the world's most pressing crises.

22:00

And given that the crisis is so widespread

22:04

with over 25 million displaced individuals

22:06

, um, I think this is

22:08

a statistic from even last year, so it's probably even greater

22:10

this year. We have to consider our

22:12

responsibility as a nation of immigrants

22:15

to see how can we support this next

22:17

wave of immigration. Whether migrants,

22:19

refugees, asylees, um,

22:21

to ensure that they can really integrate

22:23

not only into our society, but also into

22:25

our economy to build a better life. And

22:29

, uh, someone I really admire, the CEO

22:31

of Chobani Hamdi Ulukaya , um,

22:34

he's first of all, just

22:36

an amazing human being and I'm super lucky I got

22:39

to work with his team , uh , during the refugee

22:41

project that we did, but he's trying to change

22:43

the narrative around what it means to be a business in

22:45

2019, he was recently quoted

22:48

in an interview saying something along the lines of like

22:50

, uh , businesses don't exist

22:52

only to make a profit for shareholders.

22:54

We have responsibilities to our communities

22:56

, uh, toward our employees

22:58

and their families. And we

23:01

have a responsibility as businesses to help

23:03

grow humanity and community . So I think the

23:05

narrative is really shifting , um, on,

23:08

you know, why businesses should care about this. And I

23:10

think it really comes down to the fact that

23:12

the role of businesses in society is changing

23:15

and we need to think more

23:17

collectively and less , uh, from

23:19

personal gain or financial gain.

23:21

Yeah, I think that that's so important because

23:24

in business world you tend to think of your stakeholders

23:26

as your shareholders and

23:28

the profit that you're making and your stakeholders

23:30

are much more than that to make sure that you're building a

23:33

healthy , uh , company. Whether

23:35

that's just from an employee standpoint, but also

23:37

from a financial standpoint. A follow

23:39

up question is, is

23:42

there something inherently

23:45

about the type of support , uh,

23:48

in order to do, create a

23:50

cohesion, cohesive environment for refugees

23:52

versus other marginalized groups?

23:55

Uh , yes and no. So

23:57

, um, something that we found through our research was

23:59

that , um , across the almost

24:02

a hundred refugees and employees and employers

24:04

that we spoke to, there was both

24:07

agreement that many of the resources

24:09

needed already exist, but

24:11

rather it's an access and understanding

24:13

issue. Um, which then leads

24:16

to the flip side of, okay , so then we need to create

24:18

more resources to improve understanding

24:20

and access. So that might be

24:23

, um, adding language programs.

24:25

Maybe it's a buddy that speaks your language that works

24:27

in your, in your team or somewhere in the company.

24:30

Um , maybe it's literally hiring translators,

24:32

like some of the companies that we interviewed did , um,

24:35

when you realize that your employees have the skills that you need

24:37

and it's only language barrier that like holds

24:39

them back from reaching that full potential and giving

24:42

your company the full benefit of diversity,

24:44

it's a pretty simple investment to

24:46

make . Right? Um, and I think that once

24:48

businesses see that inclusion and

24:50

cohesion both with refugees

24:53

and other minority populations are an

24:55

opportunity to drive positive business outcomes,

24:57

then they start to realize that investing

24:59

in inclusion is a very

25:02

rewarding business investment. Um, and

25:04

a huge competitive advantage. So

25:06

I mentioned language might be one of them. I think

25:08

also understanding the flexibility

25:10

needs of some of these refugee populations

25:13

is super important. Um, they may have

25:15

family abroad that they need to speak

25:17

to at certain times of day or family at home

25:19

that they need to take care of. And I think

25:21

, um, more and more, you know, there's conversations

25:24

around flexibility and predictability in companies, but

25:27

when you really take a step back to listen

25:29

to what your employees need, whether refugees

25:31

or not , um, and give them the space

25:33

to be humans as well as workers,

25:36

I think that's when you really get to unlock the benefits

25:39

of diversity in the workplace.

25:40

I love that. Be humans as well as workers.

25:43

Very true.

25:43

This is something that really touched

25:46

my life and my family's life directly

25:48

because my, my parents,

25:51

my, my dad in particular and his

25:53

side of the family were all refugees

25:56

and asylum seekers during the civil war in El

25:58

Salvador, which ended in the mid nineties and

26:01

they all ended up in 13 different

26:03

countries. 15 brothers and sisters.

26:04

Wow, dang!

26:04

Yeah, it's

26:07

pretty incredible. And in particular,

26:09

you know, they, they ended

26:11

up here in the United States and Canada

26:13

and um, Costa Rica and

26:16

Venezuela, like really anywhere that would

26:18

give them refugee status. But one of

26:20

the hardest things once you're

26:23

displaced and then in a diaspora

26:25

community is finding

26:27

work in the line that you've

26:30

actually studied. And also

26:32

feeling like you belong

26:34

and I think this research is critical

26:37

to ensuring that we, especially

26:39

today, right? There's going to be

26:42

a huge need there already is for

26:44

including and creating a sense of

26:46

belonging and cohesion not only

26:48

in our workplaces but also in our everyday

26:51

lives. Especially with

26:53

the crisis at the border going on right now.

26:56

I think this is a topic that people

26:58

are really going to want to listen to.

27:00

It, It's going to just continue to be

27:03

an issue because we

27:05

know that with climate change

27:08

there will be further exacerbation

27:10

of the amount of folks who have to leave their home

27:13

in search for resources, natural resources

27:15

and access to water,

27:18

access to food and

27:20

this is going to be an issue that will continue

27:23

to come back over and over again.

27:25

I think that emphasizes the

27:28

urgency of really figuring out how

27:30

to engage the private sector in building

27:32

solutions around this now because

27:34

as you alluded to, there

27:36

will be new types of refugees emerging

27:39

in our country and in the world over the next

27:41

50 years. And if we can't

27:43

figure out a way to make it work now,

27:46

we won't be able to handle it when it's exacerbated.

27:50

So I work, like I

27:52

said before with a lot of brand

27:54

new managers , um, and

27:57

I find new managers quite fun

27:59

because they're really eager and they want to learn and

28:02

they wanted to really well. Um,

28:04

but there's also a lot of fear and being a new

28:06

manager of, you know, are, am I gonna do

28:08

well? Are People gonna like me? Um,

28:11

and those are some of my favorite people to work

28:13

with cause I really like to kind of break down what

28:15

that fear is and getting them to be in a place

28:18

where they are able to be a little

28:20

bit more vulnerable. Um, but

28:22

it can be really scary

28:25

in that position to try to figure out

28:27

how, not just to be a good manager and a

28:29

good leader, but how to build

28:31

that inclusive environment. So

28:34

if you were to speak to a brand new manager, are

28:36

there specific things that

28:38

you believe they can do to foster inclusion

28:41

or are there specific resources

28:43

that you would point them to?

28:45

Great question. Um, I would

28:47

say first, and this is something

28:49

I would say to anyone , uh , look around

28:51

you look side to side . How many

28:53

people in your team are on your

28:55

level look and sound like you? And I think

28:58

answering that question honestly is a great first

29:00

step. Um , and then looking up and

29:02

down. So how many minorities are

29:04

there entering your company in entry level

29:06

positions as well as progressing into

29:09

positions of leadership? Always

29:11

start by looking around you. Second, we

29:14

mentioned this a little bit before, but making sure that there's

29:16

awareness, understanding and access to

29:18

various company resources, whether it's

29:20

programs, initiatives , services , um,

29:23

more mature companies have a lot of diversity and

29:25

inclusion resources available. But

29:28

whether it's onboarding, learning and development,

29:30

mentorship, et Cetera, some groups need a little

29:32

bit extra help to learn

29:34

about and understand and access these programs.

29:37

So figure out where there might be

29:39

a gap between what's offered and what's

29:42

used and figure out if it's disinterest

29:45

or if it's truly just not being aware of it.

29:48

Third, I'd say really listen, and this

29:50

is something that's come up a few times in this conversation, right?

29:52

It's not just when employees are saying, but also

29:54

what they're not saying or might be great

29:57

to say and see how you can alleviate

29:59

some of the external circumstances that might

30:01

get in the way of them doing their best work, whether

30:04

it's language or family responsibilities

30:06

or something else. But the role

30:08

of employers are changing and it's increasingly

30:10

important for employers to see how they

30:12

might enable the success of the entire acumen

30:15

. And not just the worker, as we already said. And

30:18

I'd say finally , um, open

30:20

up a platform for storytelling, whether it's

30:22

empowering your team members to share their journeys

30:25

or bringing in external diversity and inclusion

30:27

experts to educate or facilitate fun

30:29

workshops. Um , create a safe

30:31

space for authentic expression

30:34

in a way that's not just to educate,

30:36

but also to build empathy and make people feel closer.

30:39

All of these things are things

30:41

that non-managerial employees can do as

30:43

well. I think inclusion is a collective

30:46

effort and engaging

30:48

the entire team in the workplace , uh

30:50

, to create inclusion makes them also

30:52

feel included. And it's important to not only

30:54

prepare the minority employees to

30:56

succeed and do well, but also make

30:58

sure that the non minority populations

31:01

who can be some of the most influential people

31:03

in creating inclusion at work feel like they have

31:05

the support, the tools, the voice

31:08

that they need to be a part of

31:10

the company's decisions. And then

31:12

as far as resources , um,

31:14

if new managers are looking for resources

31:16

to draw upon as they design their teams

31:19

or their workplaces to better

31:21

utilize and nurture the talents of minorities,

31:24

I'm also happy to be a resource to anyone, of course,

31:26

they can feel free to reach out to me on my website.

31:29

It's daliakatan.com, they can also

31:31

check out forward slash inclusion and

31:34

let me know what questions you have. I'm happy to point you in

31:36

the right direction. You can also check out some of the reports

31:38

that I coauthored , um , including

31:40

a report on how to include refugees in the workplace.

31:43

Um, and again, while I've written with refugees at heart, these

31:46

are really principles that can benefit any employee.

31:49

Um , also a report on how leaders and teams

31:51

can improve their performance in an increasingly

31:53

fast changing world. Other resources

31:56

for refugee related issues. I couldn't

31:58

recommend enough, The

32:00

Tent Partnership for Refugees. They put out some really incredible

32:02

reports on the intersection

32:04

of refugees and inclusion and

32:07

for resources on team dynamics

32:09

and the future of work. Check out The Center For The Edge.

32:11

It's an innovation think tank that I worked for and

32:14

they've produced some really cool content on productive

32:16

friction team, dynamics, the future of

32:18

work, et Cetera.

32:20

I love the statement of,

32:22

um, not, it's

32:24

not just managers who can help foster

32:26

this relationship, right? It's everybody. Um,

32:29

the one thing that I throw back is I'm

32:31

always trying to get my managers to think about

32:33

this more because they can also be

32:35

the ones to halt it, halt progression

32:38

, um, when they're not seeing the need.

32:40

And I think the biggest thing that I'm constantly

32:43

trying to make my managers

32:45

and the people that I have mentored is

32:48

to make them aware of what their team

32:50

makeup looks like. Just the sentence of look

32:53

to your left, look to your right, look up, look down who's

32:55

around you, and what's needed is

32:57

really important. And I think it's, it's this

32:59

practice of trying to get managers

33:01

and leaders to look outside of themselves

33:03

, um, and not just what is the

33:05

goal at hand, but how do you do that with

33:08

your team and is your

33:10

team supported as a human being

33:13

in order to make that happen? Because if they're not

33:15

supported as a human being first,

33:18

then you're never gonna really reach

33:21

the true potential of whatever that goal could be.

33:23

So I love all of that. That's really tangible stuff

33:25

that I think people can use.

33:28

You also talked about the importance of storytelling

33:30

, which to be honest, that's probably

33:32

my favorite thing that you've said today, surprise,

33:36

being coming from a journalism background

33:39

and also from a marketing communications

33:41

background, there's such a power

33:43

in oral histories and telling

33:46

your story and passing that forward

33:49

and being able to feel visible by telling

33:51

your story. And that this is really

33:53

a big part of why we are doing this podcast

33:55

is helping people have a platform

33:57

where they can share their stories , share their resources,

34:00

their expertise, and support

34:02

others in trying to be more visible.

34:06

Um, and using our power

34:08

essentially to lift other people up. So

34:10

this is just so critical, not

34:12

just as an employee, as a peer,

34:15

but as, as a human being.

34:17

I think being able to not only

34:19

tell your own story and be vulnerable

34:22

and honest about your experience

34:24

and being able to listen,

34:26

truly, deeply listen to other people's

34:28

stories and authentically engaging

34:31

in empathy and understanding

34:33

and growing from there. So

34:36

something that we like to ask every single

34:38

interviewee is, what

34:41

allyship means to you

34:43

and how can we be allies to you?

34:46

I think the first thing is always speaking

34:48

up. So being a champion

34:50

or advocate for someone who's constantly

34:53

overlooked for a leadership role that they might be qualified

34:55

for , um , or pointing out

34:57

homogeny to a manager

35:00

, uh , and offering help with recruiting I think

35:02

is always a great place to start. Stepping aside, and

35:05

sometimes that means shutting up if

35:07

I can curse on a podcast. Um,

35:10

recognizing when you are not making room

35:12

for others to share their opinions. Um

35:15

, giving up a part of your privilege to lift

35:17

others up , um, and sometimes making

35:19

yourself a little bit uncomfortable so that

35:21

those who might not have the same opportunity

35:23

can succeed in the workplace. Um,

35:26

I would say what it's not is it's not

35:29

mentorship. Um, it's

35:31

not just, you know, giving

35:33

people advice or saying, Hey, I'm

35:35

here for you if you need it. It's also a

35:37

champion. It's going above and beyond

35:39

giving advice and really leveraging your

35:41

network and being invested in their success.

35:44

Um, putting their interests and the group

35:46

interests over sometimes your own personal interests.

35:49

That's a wonderful definition of allyship.

35:52

I love it.

35:53

Last, before we let you go, is there anything

35:55

that you're up to right now that you

35:57

want to let our audience know about?

36:00

Thanks for asking. Um, a lot of

36:02

fun stuff. I've been thinking

36:05

a lot more about the future of work. I'm actually

36:07

coauthoring a book called Part-Time Wild, which

36:10

is a guide to help employers redefine

36:12

their relationship with employees and support

36:14

their whole, or human selves as we've spoken

36:17

about today. Um, and also helping

36:19

employees navigate conversations around part

36:22

time work. And our hypothesis there really

36:24

is that the future work is

36:26

not full time jobs and it's not necessarily freelance

36:28

either. I think it's this new

36:31

, uh , it's actually not completely

36:33

new, but we're trying to redefine what part-time means

36:35

and kind of shed some of the stigma behind

36:37

it , um, and create this part time

36:40

lifestyle that's actually liberating

36:42

to employees while

36:44

also maximizing the benefit that

36:46

employers can get from their employees. So

36:49

if any of you listeners have a great story you

36:51

want to share about your own part time journeys

36:53

, um , please feel free to reach out to me at Daliakatan.com, um , I've

36:57

also been coaching others on designing

36:59

their lives around curiosity and creativity

37:01

, um, and helping them create space for creative

37:04

sabbaticals. Work's been keeping you

37:06

pretty busy, when I'm not doing diversity

37:08

and inclusion stuff. I'm usually

37:10

helping startups and incorporations redesign

37:12

their growth and innovation strategies. So

37:15

that's been taking up a lot of my

37:17

bandwidth, I'd say.

37:19

Congratulations. That's amazing. Sounds like

37:21

you've got a lot of irons in the fire.

37:23

It's really cool to hear that you

37:25

have such a passion for

37:28

diversity, inclusion and hearing your experience

37:30

with research and sharing your personal

37:32

perspective as well with us. Really can't

37:34

thank you enough for being here and for sharing

37:37

your story with us and sharing some of your

37:39

resources with our community. Really, thank

37:41

you so much for being with us.

37:42

Oh , this is really fun . Thank you ladies for making

37:44

this space for me to share all this stuff. You both are

37:46

such amazing co- hosts. I'm excited to share

37:49

this. Again, I told you two this before, but

37:51

like because I've been writing reports,

37:53

it's so inaccessible. Like

37:55

I wouldn't even sit and read a hundred page report

37:57

someone wrote like even if it was exactly what

37:59

I was interested in. So

38:02

it's important what you gals are doing to make

38:04

this work more accessible, and to like share,

38:08

I think things that people may or may not

38:10

read otherwise in a way that's easy to digest

38:13

and easy to kind of like listen to you on the road

38:15

while you're going to work. So

38:18

this is super important work.

38:20

That's the dream.

38:21

Yeah, that is the dream.

38:21

Trying to make it more accessible.

38:23

Here we go. Let's see how it works. Well, congrats

38:25

on the work that you have coming. It sounds like

38:27

you, you've got this amazing book

38:30

and I'm going to read it the second it comes out.

38:33

Yeah .

38:33

Thank you, I'll send you guys a copy.

38:35

Yes, please do. Please do.

38:38

[Beep Beep] When when she finished with allyship is not

38:40

mentorship. I was like, oh no, I talked about being a

38:42

mentor. I s this bad?

38:44

No, I like that because

38:46

what she's saying is it's , it goes beyond

38:49

mentorship. Right? It's not just mentorship.

38:52

Yeah.

38:52

Mentorship is one element that can help, but it's

38:55

about making sure that you're being a champion also,

38:57

which I think you do really well.

38:59

That's something that I've noticed in your work.

39:02

You're not just a mentor to people giving

39:04

them advice and guidance. You're

39:06

there for them in the room when they're not

39:08

there to promote them

39:10

and celebrate them and, and

39:13

put them in positions where

39:15

they can learn themselves. Right. Like that

39:17

to me is championing somebody

39:20

versus just mentoring somebody.

39:23

Yeah. What is a champion is so

39:25

hard to define in some way because

39:27

it can be really specific to

39:31

the person or the instance, right? Like

39:33

what, what somebody needs as a champion

39:35

really depends upon the circumstances.

39:37

And so I like to think

39:39

that I'm a champion, but I get

39:43

nervous that I need to be doing more

39:45

or that I'm not doing enough.

39:47

And so I don't know, it's

39:49

just a good reminder for me that

39:52

talking about this stuff is one thing,

39:54

but making sure that I'm

39:57

actionable in that. So for example, like I

39:59

had to bring up to one

40:01

of our SVPs a few months ago, the fact

40:05

that because I'm not allowed to

40:07

pick who's on my team anymore, that means

40:09

that I've lost the opportunity to make sure

40:11

that my team is diverse. Um,

40:14

and so I had to bring that up

40:16

and make sure that they were aware of it so

40:18

they can add that in. And so I want to

40:20

make sure that that is championship

40:23

, if that makes sense.

40:25

Yeah, that's advocacy to me that seems like something

40:27

that if you were

40:29

passively trying to provide

40:31

the optics of being an inclusive leader,

40:34

that's not something that you would do. You're actually

40:37

asking for something, but

40:39

you know what, maybe this'll help us both.

40:42

Let's look for somebody who can talk about what it looks

40:44

like to be a champion in the room because

40:46

I think that's a cool topic and it's something

40:48

that people ask all the time. I have had several

40:50

folks ask me what it looks like

40:52

to be a champion in a room and I

40:55

have been able to provide my own opinion, my

40:57

own thoughts on it. But definitely not

41:00

based on any expertise in any way. So,

41:03

Yeah. Let's look for somebody.

41:05

I think her topics right, the

41:07

, the overarching of what she's talking about

41:09

is so great and so important. Um,

41:11

I loved her, like what are the five

41:13

pieces that create a

41:15

community where people feel like they are

41:18

included in there , they want to be there

41:20

and how there were sort of these five

41:22

things to think about. I love that as a starting

41:24

point, but then it's

41:27

not just the policies that you're doing,

41:29

it's what you're doing in the room. So yeah,

41:31

I think that that would be really interesting to take this

41:33

from sort of a larger topic

41:35

to something a little bit more focused.

41:38

Yeah, I agree. I think it would be really cool.

41:40

This is a nice place to start. This is a

41:42

first conversation, right? Like this is our first

41:44

more formal starting from the

41:47

macro understanding

41:48

[Singing] Started from the bottom now we're here.

41:50

Starting from the top here. Theoretical.

41:52

Yeah, sure .

41:52

Let's, let's make our way down

41:55

to the more practical and try to dig

41:58

into the niche topics that we just touched

42:00

on today.

42:01

Thank you so much for joining us for this fabulous

42:04

interview with the incredible and brilliant

42:05

Dalia Katan. Are

42:08

you somebody who has a seat at the table and actively

42:10

champions for people, especially for

42:12

minorities or underrepresented folks

42:15

in your organization, in your company or in

42:17

your community? Or are

42:19

you somebody who has personally experienced

42:21

having a champion in that room

42:23

advocating for you? We want

42:25

to hear from you. What does that look like in practice?

42:28

While you're leaving your voice memo on our website,

42:31

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of the websites. This episode

42:55

was produced by me, Gaby

42:57

Acosta , and co- hosted by my

42:59

boo, Jenelle Acosta. Our

43:01

music was written and produced by the talented

43:03

Emily Henry. Here's

43:05

Jenelle singing this week's list

43:07

of seed fund sponsors.

43:14

David Leme, I like you a lot. I

43:16

also like David

43:19

Winship. Dawn Andreas, you are my

43:21

friend. I also like [inaudible]

43:23

Dutcher-Stoy family, hi Amelia! Emily

43:25

Henry, you wrote our

43:27

theme song. Emily Jorgensen, you

43:30

are great.

43:30

Hashtag!

43:31

30 for 30 baby, yeah. [Dog Barks]

43:36

Every time.