0:00

In 1932, one man opened

0:02

a two-room business school above

0:04

a non-descript storefront in downtown

0:06

Manchester, New Hampshire. How did

0:08

it become one of the

0:10

largest universities in the country?

0:12

Okay, this case isn't exactly

0:14

a mystery. Southern New Hampshire

0:17

University offers over 200 degrees.

0:19

You can earn from your

0:21

couch. And with low online

0:23

tuition, Southern New Hampshire University

0:25

makes earning your degree affordable

0:27

too. Find your degree at

0:29

S-N-H-U-D-U-S slash garage. That's S-N-H-U-D-U-

0:32

slash garage. Hi, this is

0:34

Steve Bussemi, you know, the

0:36

actor. Well, now I'm an actor

0:38

and podcast host from

0:41

Peace of Work Entertainment

0:43

and Campside Media in

0:46

association with all of

0:48

productions comes big time,

0:50

an Apple original podcast. Each

0:53

episode follows the story of one misfit

0:55

with big dreams who isn't afraid to

0:57

bend a few wounds or take a

0:59

shortcut to get there. Well who steals

1:02

bees? I was duped. I shoot you

1:04

in the leg. This is big time.

1:06

Follow and listen on Apple podcasts. Welcome

1:49

to True Crime Garage wherever you

1:52

are whatever you are doing. Thanks

1:54

for listening I'm your host Nick

1:56

and with me as always ladies

1:59

and gentlemen if you have the

2:01

chance you better run Here is

2:04

the captain. Yeah, you better B-W-E-W-R-U-N-B-R-U-N-B-R-U-N-B-R-U-N-B-R-N-A-friend.

2:06

Today we are very excited to

2:08

be featuring Vibacious. By the great

2:11

folks at Great Lakes Brewing Company.

2:13

Vibacious is a bold, bright and

2:16

smooth double IPA featuring three varieties

2:18

of hops. That is Apollo Kashmir

2:20

and Citri-B-V-9 percent. There's good vibes

2:23

in this double IPA, garage grade

2:25

four and three quarter bottle caps

2:28

out of five. And do you

2:30

know who else is giving off

2:32

some good vibes? It's these great

2:35

garage friends right here. First up

2:37

a big cheers to Alicia

2:39

and Burke Virginia. And a big

2:42

we like Egypt goes out to

2:44

Abby in Austin, Texas. Next up

2:46

a cheers to Pamela Vizier from

2:49

Solomon's Island, Maryland. And a big

2:51

double-fisted cheers goes out to Tara

2:54

in Rapid City. South Dakota. And

2:56

last but certainly not least we

2:58

have Terry Carter in Orville California.

3:01

Everyone we just mentioned contributed to

3:03

the beer fund and for that

3:06

we think. Yeah Pw W. W.

3:08

R. You win beer run. You

3:10

need more true crime garage for

3:13

your earballs. Make sure you subscribe

3:15

to off the record on Apple

3:18

podcast or on Patreon. And Colonel,

3:20

that's enough of the business. All

3:22

right, everybody gather around, grab a

3:25

chair, grab a beer. Let's talk

3:27

some true crime. Tonight

3:39

marks five years since Catherine Brown

3:41

and Carnell Sledge were murdered in

3:43

the Metro Parks Rocky River Reservation

3:46

and police still don't know who

3:48

did it. The two friends were

3:50

last seen sitting on a bench

3:53

together. Tonight a vigil was held

3:55

in their honor as their families

3:57

hold out hope they will get

4:00

justice. Our Midi Hicks has more.

4:02

another year of frustration for a

4:04

carnal sledges family. It's been five

4:07

years since he was shot and

4:09

killed and there's still no answers.

4:11

That's too long. Five years is

4:14

a long time for somebody to,

4:16

you know, our family is still

4:18

grieving. But even in their grief,

4:21

they come together for a visual

4:23

each year on the same day

4:26

he died to remember as they

4:28

put the glue for this family.

4:30

I remember him as being a

4:33

fun loving person. He was an

4:35

amazing person. He really was family-orient.

4:37

He actually kept us all together.

4:40

His loved ones say he would

4:42

do anything for anyone, which is

4:44

why they're not surprised he helped

4:47

his friend Kate Brown when she

4:49

called and asked him to meet

4:51

her at the park. But shortly

4:54

after parking, kayakers found their bodies.

4:56

They were shot to death in

4:58

broad daylight. That's what I want

5:01

to put the pit in until

5:03

he come. He said between 5

5:05

and 5.30. He died at the

5:08

same time he was supposed to

5:10

meet his grandmother for dinner. My

5:13

baby never made it. My son-in-law

5:15

told me I lost it. I

5:17

haven't been right since. It's like

5:20

a whole here. I try to...

5:22

I'm existing. That hole in their

5:24

hearts will never be filled, so

5:27

they're hoping for some relief, and

5:29

that can only happen when the

5:31

person responsible is found. They're asking

5:34

anyone with information to come forward.

5:36

Just trying to get some clues,

5:38

answers, some closure, and just kind

5:41

of give our families some peace.

5:43

And there's now a $100,000 reward

5:45

for any information that could lead

5:48

to an arrest. I

6:07

am thankful beyond words Captain. We

6:10

are creeping up on 10 years

6:12

of podcasting together and that is

6:15

a testament to all of the

6:17

wonderful listeners and garage friends that

6:19

we have made over the years.

6:22

This case, however, is one of

6:24

the scariest cases that we have

6:26

covered. Our first go around on

6:29

this case was from almost two

6:31

years ago titled Cleveland Metro Parks

6:34

Murder. So that is from April

6:36

of 2023 episode number 660 on

6:38

your true crime garage radio dial.

6:41

On that episode I was joined

6:43

by Aaron our friend from the

6:45

Generation Y podcast to discuss the

6:48

unsolved murders of Cornell Sledge and

6:50

Catherine Brown. Cornell was an AV

6:53

tech at Crescent Digital in Strongsville,

6:55

Ohio, and volunteered as a youth

6:57

consultant for Applewood Centers. And he

7:00

was known for volunteering there, but

7:02

also for coaching youth sports. And

7:04

a lot of times these were

7:07

special needs kids. And he coached

7:09

these kids and did such a

7:12

great job with it. He did

7:14

so much for... the people of

7:16

his community. He's described as a

7:19

big teddy bear of a man

7:21

who was always smiling and always

7:23

looking for ways to help others

7:26

and known for going out of

7:28

his way to help his friends

7:31

and loved ones and many who

7:33

called him Nell. Catherine worked for

7:35

Qc G Goods in Brook Park

7:38

Ohio, by the way, one of

7:40

the most beautiful places in Ohio.

7:43

Catherine grew up in Olmstead Falls.

7:45

Catherine was affectionately called Kate. by

7:47

just about everyone that I could

7:50

find. Now, Nell and Kate were

7:52

killed, shot, and murdered in the

7:54

greater Cleveland, Ohio area at the

7:57

Rocky River Reservation. The Rocky River

7:59

Reservation is a 2,500 acre preserve.

8:02

along the Rocky River in Northeast

8:04

Ohio. It is expansive and it

8:06

is beautiful, very green. So you

8:09

have the Cleveland Metro parks, which

8:11

is absolutely fantastic. If you take

8:13

a look at Northeast Ohio, you

8:16

will see on the map and

8:18

see the map peppered with these

8:21

green spaces that are all part

8:23

of the Cleveland Metro parks. Now

8:25

we will hone in on... Cleveland

8:28

and what you will see on

8:30

the map is this green line.

8:33

You have this brilliant Lake Erie

8:35

to the north of Cleveland and

8:37

then just below you have this

8:40

great green line. It's not straight,

8:42

it's kind of like, like picture

8:44

the bowl of a red wine

8:47

glass, like a crescent moon that

8:49

is lipped. That is what they

8:52

call the Cleveland Metro Park's Emerald

8:54

Necklace Trail, which Emerald Necklace is

8:56

a far better description than I

8:59

just gave. The Emerald necklace connects

9:01

Scenic Park at the north end

9:04

of the Rocky River Reservation, goes

9:06

through Millstream Run Reservation, and east

9:08

to Brexville Reservation, and through the

9:11

towpath trail. So a lot of

9:13

bicyclists and pedestrians. The trail is

9:15

part of the Metro Park's extensive

9:18

trail network of over 325 miles

9:20

of trails across 18 park reservations

9:23

spanning nearly 25,000 acres. All that

9:25

to say that this is an

9:27

absolutely beautiful area and what a

9:30

great wonderful space for the people

9:32

living in the surrounding communities and

9:34

the neighborhoods that weave alongside these

9:37

parks. Yeah, and one of those

9:39

people living close to this area

9:42

is one of our victims, Kate.

9:44

That's exactly right. Within that Rocky

9:46

River reservation right inside that beautiful

9:49

park, this is located in the

9:51

city of Fairview Park in Cuyahoga

9:54

County, Ohio. We have now who's

9:56

40 years old. Kate was just

9:58

33 years old. They met there

10:00

one afternoon early evening and

10:03

during the course of their meetup

10:05

someone snuck up on them and

10:07

fired three shots. Boom boom boom

10:09

hitting all three shots and left

10:11

them there to die right there in

10:13

the park. Now some people out there

10:15

say that to talk about this double

10:18

homicide is to desecrate the

10:20

park this park the Rocky

10:22

River reservation and it is

10:25

to desecrate the metro parks. that

10:27

so many people have loved

10:29

and so much money and

10:31

resources are expended to maintain

10:33

these beautiful spaces. Right. I

10:35

think if you think that or

10:37

say that, I say shame on

10:40

you. The only thing that desecrates

10:42

or desecrated this park is the

10:44

man that walked in there and

10:46

shot two lovely innocent people sitting

10:48

on a park bench on a

10:50

warm sunny day in broad daylight.

10:53

Now if I'm correct I think

10:55

law enforcement believes that carnal was

10:57

hit first Katie took off

10:59

running she was shot the breakdown

11:01

of what some in law enforcement

11:04

believed to have happened is

11:06

that carnal was shot first

11:08

possibly both shots fired first and

11:10

then Kate got up and was

11:13

then shot both of them at

11:15

close range right now before we

11:17

get into the details here I

11:19

want to want to go through

11:21

some stuff. The captain and I

11:23

are revisiting this today for a

11:25

multitude of reasons. Hold on. You're

11:28

revisiting. I'm visiting for the first

11:30

time. Aaron and I took a

11:32

look at this double homicide in

11:35

April of 2023, but then

11:37

Unsolved Mysteries covered the

11:39

case on their most recent

11:41

release on Netflix with the

11:43

October 2nd, 2024 release of

11:45

Unsalled Mysteries volume 5.

11:48

This was the first episode of volume

11:50

five titled the park bench murder.

11:52

So it's a 43 minute look

11:54

at the Metro Parks murders case.

11:56

Now I wanted to cover this

11:58

again because Frank I was excited.

12:00

I was thrilled when Unsolved Mysteries

12:03

covered the case. Why? Because as

12:05

I said in April of 2023,

12:07

this is a very solvable case.

12:09

I thought that because of the

12:11

streaming shows, big audience, and the

12:14

major players covering the story, not

12:16

just some Ohio boys here, that

12:18

the story would get churning on

12:20

the internet and the interest level

12:22

would get cranked up to 11.

12:25

But that didn't exactly happen. So

12:27

maybe we can rally the troops

12:29

and get this thing going. But

12:31

also there's more and new information.

12:33

There's some information that we've uncovered

12:35

that's that's correct. Now I went

12:38

back to my notes from 21

12:40

months ago and I found a

12:42

note in there that Ask you

12:44

what do we title? This episode,

12:46

episode 660. The Rocky River murders,

12:49

the Metro Parks murders. We covered

12:51

we called the episode the Cleveland

12:53

Metro Parks murders unsolved mysteries called

12:55

it the park bench murders But

12:57

now let's just call it what

13:00

it is. It's unsolved. It's still

13:02

unsolved to this day And so

13:04

to me that's the biggest reason

13:06

to revisit this case. It's unsolved

13:08

Now of course nothing is more

13:11

sad than these two lovely people

13:13

having their lives so senselessly cut

13:15

short, but what is growing sadder

13:17

and more desperate each and every

13:19

single day, is that these two

13:22

families, Nell and Kate's loved ones,

13:24

the people who loved them the

13:26

most, cannot get justice for their

13:28

son, their daughter, their sister, their

13:30

brother, their grandson. They can't do

13:33

it. They have tried their damned

13:35

as only the men and women

13:37

of law enforcement can do that

13:39

and from what my eyes have

13:41

seen and from what my ears

13:44

have heard. Having kept a watchful

13:46

eye on this case since June

13:48

of 2019, I don't think that

13:50

all of those persons have done

13:52

their best effort. Some have, but

13:55

maybe not all. And it takes

13:57

a village, right? We say that

13:59

about our children. It takes a

14:01

village, well... It took a lot

14:03

of villages to build these beautiful

14:06

parks. Let's unite and band together

14:08

and solve this double homicide. Finally,

14:10

solve this double homicide. Because year

14:12

after year, we are so saddened

14:14

and sickened to be seeing the

14:17

same old news articles of video

14:19

clips on the internet that keep

14:21

coming out about the Sunsoft case.

14:23

Headlines like, one year later, two

14:25

families still seeking answers. or family

14:28

pleads for justice on three-year anniversary

14:30

of Rocky River reservation double murders?

14:32

Or four years, and Rocky River

14:34

reservation, killer still has not been

14:36

found. And then after five years,

14:39

a new push in the investigation

14:41

to solve the Cleveland Metro Parks

14:43

murders. Well, let's not make it

14:45

six years. Let's not have to

14:47

have similar titles for articles and

14:50

internet stories. on the six-year anniversary.

14:52

Let's say that we've got the

14:54

killer. We've made an arrest and

14:56

we're working toward getting a conviction.

14:58

Yeah, it's sad that these murderous

15:00

duche canoes are ruining our parks.

15:03

Now I didn't drive all the

15:05

way here to the garage today

15:07

just to scream into a microphone,

15:09

I promise you. And we won't

15:11

get into some of the discussions

15:14

had on episode 660. If you

15:16

want to go back and listen

15:18

to that, it's sitting there available

15:20

for free for you to listen

15:22

to listen to. But some of

15:25

those things that we talked about

15:27

in episode 660 will steer away

15:29

from like the letter from the

15:31

psychic, which was interesting to review

15:33

in part because it was a

15:36

fresh theory that went outside of

15:38

the hate crime theory that had

15:40

swirled early on in this case.

15:42

We won't get into the digital

15:44

detectives or how disappointed I was

15:47

in the press conferences conducted by

15:49

the Metro Parks Police or me

15:51

screaming about how geo fencing would

15:53

solve the case in the matter

15:55

of one afternoon. That is all

15:58

there for your earballs in episode

16:00

660. Like the captain said, new

16:02

information. We have done some digging,

16:04

made some contacts, uncovered some information,

16:06

all that was not available to

16:09

us in April of 2023, and

16:11

it's time. to present this from

16:13

a different angle and under a

16:15

different spotlight. So let's proceed. Much

16:17

has been made about Carnell, now,

16:20

in Kate's relationship. Was it romantic?

16:22

And the answer without knowing either

16:24

of them directly, it seems to

16:26

be a resounding no. I believe

16:28

the best description we get is

16:31

from the family seen on Unsolved

16:33

Mysteries. And in more recent local

16:35

news coverage. The family state that

16:37

the two shared about a decade

16:39

long, on again, off again, very

16:42

close friendship. Typically, when either were

16:44

to be in a romantic relationship,

16:46

they were not as close. Kate's

16:48

family says that now was someone

16:50

that Kate could lean on and

16:53

did when she needed to. And

16:55

now, ever the big brother, was

16:57

always there to help her out.

16:59

Let's go back to the day

17:01

in question. This was Tuesday, June

17:04

4th, 2019. It was a warm

17:06

and bright sun shiny day. Both

17:08

Kate and Nell worked on this

17:10

Tuesday. Kate arrives home from work

17:12

and signs into her apartment's gym

17:15

to work out. This is at

17:17

3.38 p.m. Nell text Kate at

17:19

402 p.m. Asking if she would

17:21

like to get together. Law enforcement

17:23

and the families agree that they

17:26

do not know why the two

17:28

were going to meet up. At

17:30

4.10 p.m. Kate calls now and

17:32

they talk for about 10 minutes.

17:34

Nell leaves his place of work

17:36

at 4.24 p.m. and Kate leaves

17:39

the gym at 4.31 p. So

17:41

at this time... We know that

17:43

they are both independently in their

17:45

own vehicles driving to the park

17:47

We would learn on unsolved mysteries

17:50

that an officer's-cam picked up both

17:52

What is believed to be both

17:54

of the victim's vehicles, so this

17:56

would be hates car at 5.01

17:58

p.m. in Nell's vehicle following shortly

18:01

behind her at 5.03 p.m. To

18:03

provide a better description, he's not

18:05

following her. He's about two minutes

18:07

behind her, but they're traveling in

18:09

the same direction. And on this-cam

18:12

was just simply part of this

18:14

officer's routine. It's set up in

18:16

his... patrol car and he was

18:18

parked in the area. So this

18:20

gives us some really good information

18:23

though on about what time that

18:25

they will arrive at the location

18:27

in the park where they're later

18:29

found dead because it is approximately

18:31

only a two-minute drive to the

18:34

small gravel lot for this Lorraine

18:36

road location of Rocky River from

18:38

where they're spotted by the-camp. So

18:40

we can... Based off of this

18:42

information we can surmise that the

18:45

arrival of both would be 503

18:47

and 505 p.m. for K and

18:49

Nell respectively. That's one of the

18:51

fascinating things about this case is

18:53

our timeline is really backed up

18:56

and is solidified by our digital

18:58

data timeline. Nell's mother says that

19:00

she believes that this was a

19:02

last minute meetup. So she says

19:04

something must have been going on.

19:07

somebody has something on the brain

19:09

or somebody has something that is

19:11

important and it's something that they

19:13

need to address or felt that

19:15

they needed to meet in person

19:18

and she also believes that the

19:20

meeting was going to be very

19:22

brief because she states that her

19:24

son Nell had plans to meet

19:26

her and her husband Nell's father

19:29

and some other family at grandma's

19:31

house so they're all meeting up

19:33

for a family dinner. The plan

19:35

was for a 5 p.m. arrival.

19:37

So he he's already late by

19:40

this point right and this is

19:42

an event that he said he

19:44

was going to and he would

19:46

regularly go to. Now one thing

19:48

that we do need to point

19:51

out too is that this would

19:53

have been out of the way

19:55

where where he's meeting he would

19:57

then have to backtrack and travel

19:59

in the opposite direction to get

20:01

to his grandmother's house. So he

20:04

goes from work to the park

20:06

and then the guess is he

20:08

after the park a short visit

20:10

he would then proceed on to

20:12

grandmother's house. I've seen some people

20:15

online speculate that this is very

20:17

strange because like you said he's

20:19

already running late to me this

20:21

is not that strange you're meeting

20:23

up with your family it's not

20:26

like you're heading to work if

20:28

you're a little behind nobody's gonna

20:30

fire you yeah I think a

20:32

lot of people will agree with

20:34

this especially if you're going to

20:37

something where there's several other people

20:39

attending as well like if it

20:41

were only to be Nell right

20:43

going to grandma's house. He probably

20:45

would have wanted to make sure

20:48

he was either on time or

20:50

at least phoned her in advance

20:52

and said hey something's come up

20:54

I might be 30 minutes late.

20:56

But when you know other people

20:59

are arriving it's okay hey you

21:01

know I'll be 15 minutes 20

21:03

minutes late they probably won't even

21:05

notice because they'll be engaged in

21:07

conversation and chit-chat and stuff until

21:10

I get there. So at this

21:12

point in our timeline, Captain, we

21:14

have both Kate and Nell sitting

21:16

together on a park bench. Now,

21:18

one thing that I believe is

21:21

crucial to this case, and possibly

21:23

to the answers to this case,

21:25

is this park bench is visible

21:27

from the road, the major road

21:29

that's there, and the gravel lot

21:32

that comes off of this road.

21:34

So they're sitting on this park

21:36

bench, we can say... shortly after

21:38

505 p.m. because we we can

21:40

gather that now would have arrived.

21:43

Kate and he

21:45

would have pulled

21:47

into this lot

21:49

at 5 0

21:51

5 p .m.

21:54

And so they

21:56

make their way

21:58

to this this

22:00

park bench. The

22:02

park bench is

22:05

right there just

22:07

in front of

22:09

the Rocky River.

22:11

Police say that

22:13

at 5 0

22:16

8, Kate unlocks

22:18

her phone. They note this for

22:20

good reason. This will mean that

22:22

they haven't become under attack at

22:24

this point. They're both alive and

22:26

well at 5 0 8 p

22:28

.m. Now what we do know

22:31

too is that 5 22 p .m.

22:33

There's a 911 call that is

22:35

placed to dispatch by two kayakers.

22:37

This is a timestamp that is

22:39

crucial here. So two kayakers. This

22:41

is a couple, a married couple

22:44

show up and they're looking for

22:46

a place to launch their kayaks.

22:48

They unfortunately find the body of

22:50

Nell first and then when they

22:52

get closer they see Kate lying

22:54

in the shallow part of the

22:56

river. So based on the movements

22:59

of Kate and Nell, we can

23:01

surmise that the kayaking couple arrive

23:03

no later than 5 19 p

23:05

.m. They find the bodies when

23:07

trying to find the spot to

23:09

launch the kayaks. So garage math

23:12

here captain tells me we are

23:14

looking at 11 minutes. A tiny

23:16

little window of only 11 minutes. When

23:19

someone walked up likely from

23:21

behind, shoots them from behind

23:24

and flees. The kayakers say

23:26

they heard no shots and

23:28

so saw no one walking

23:30

or leaving the area. Yeah,

23:32

we have no eyewitnesses that

23:34

see a vehicle leaving. Like

23:36

you said, it is a

23:38

parking lot, but it's gravel,

23:41

which also if the killer

23:43

was in a car, not

23:45

only would you possibly see

23:47

the vehicle, but you'd hear

23:49

it driving through the gravel.

23:51

We have no eyewitnesses in

23:53

that. But because this is

23:56

a big park, it's like,

23:58

did he escape through a

24:00

pathway or did he? escape through

24:02

the waterway. Yeah, that's the crime scene,

24:04

the location does complicate

24:07

the investigation. Now

24:09

to talk further about

24:11

this gravel lot, this

24:13

is a small pull-off

24:15

lot. It's not room for

24:17

20 cars or 30 cars.

24:19

Like the captain had said

24:22

earlier. We find out that the

24:24

male victim was shot twice, the female

24:26

victim shot once, the male was found

24:29

lying face down next to the park

24:31

bench. Kate, the female victim, is

24:33

found face down in the water.

24:35

This is approximately six feet in

24:37

front of the park bench. There

24:39

are cars in this gravel lot.

24:41

Police are very quick to arrive on the

24:44

scene. And this is quite interesting too.

24:46

One of the first people from

24:48

law enforcement to arrive on the

24:50

scene is... someone who will go

24:52

on to be the lead detective

24:54

for a portion of the

24:56

investigation. And you can see

24:58

they have his dashboard camera of

25:01

him responding to the call and

25:03

arriving to that gravel lot.

25:05

This is minutes after the 911

25:07

calls received at 522 p.m. Right.

25:09

You can see on his dashboard

25:12

cam that gravel lot and who's

25:14

parked there. You can see a

25:16

pickup truck. You can see Carnell's

25:18

vehicle. You can see Kate's

25:21

vehicle, you see the kayakers vehicle,

25:23

and you also see an additional

25:25

vehicle, which we now know who

25:27

belongs, who that vehicle belongs to.

25:29

This is a male that arrived

25:31

with a dog after the kayakers.

25:34

So that vehicle wasn't there

25:36

at the time of the murders. The

25:38

kayakers arrived after the shots were

25:40

fired, after the two were killed.

25:42

But like you said, the pickup truck

25:44

was there. At the time of the

25:47

murders. The pickup truck was there and

25:49

the two victims vehicles were in this

25:51

lot as well. And as we can

25:53

see on the detectives dashboard cam,

25:55

the pickup truck and victims

25:58

vehicles and kayakers were. all

26:00

still there when he arrived

26:02

on the scene. And keep

26:04

in mind, I wanna really

26:06

hit this home for people

26:08

that didn't watch the Unsold

26:10

Mysteries or don't live in

26:12

this area and don't know

26:14

this area. You can see

26:17

the road and the parking

26:19

lot from the park bench

26:21

where the shots were fired.

26:23

And also keep in mind

26:25

that it's just after 5

26:27

p.m.m. on a Tuesday, there

26:29

would have been a good

26:31

amount of traffic there on

26:33

that road. And there's a

26:35

bridge somewhat nearby that would

26:37

have a an angular but

26:39

an overhead view of this

26:41

park bench that runs a

26:44

the bridge runs over the

26:46

river so there would have

26:48

been traffic on that bridge

26:50

at that time as well

26:52

the lack of eyewitnesses or

26:54

ear witnesses is astounding in

26:56

this case yeah you think

26:58

somebody driving by would have

27:00

heard something or saw something

27:02

but we have these two

27:04

kayakers I wonder what they

27:06

call their kayak so there

27:08

are eyewitness eyewitnesses We don't

27:11

think they're ear witnesses though,

27:13

right? Exactly. No, they say

27:15

they didn't see anybody on

27:17

foot. They didn't see any

27:19

bicyclist. They didn't hear any

27:21

shots. So now we just

27:23

got a look for the

27:25

individual that owns this pickup

27:27

truck. Correct. And he's still

27:29

on the scene when the

27:31

police arrive. This is a

27:33

individual that is referred to

27:35

on unsolved mysteries as the

27:38

roofer. He is going to

27:40

become an intricate part of

27:42

this. story in my mind

27:44

because the detectives say he's

27:46

the first person of interest

27:48

in the case because of

27:50

a simple fact. We know

27:52

he was there before during

27:54

and after the murders. Keep

27:56

in mind he's the only

27:58

person that they can say

28:00

at this time based off

28:03

of evidence that he was

28:05

there before during and after

28:07

the murders. Right? Like you

28:09

said before we turned on

28:11

the microphones. as far as

28:13

we know until we somebody

28:15

else, we only have three

28:17

people that we know that

28:19

we're all there before, during,

28:21

and after the murders, and

28:23

two of them are dead.

28:25

Quince offers a range of

28:27

high quality items at prices

28:30

within reach, like 100% Mongolia

28:32

and Kashmir sweaters, from $50.

28:34

Washable, silk tops and dresses,

28:36

organic cotton sweaters, and 14-carat

28:38

gold jewelry. The best part,

28:40

all Quince items are priced

28:42

50 to 80% less than

28:44

similar brands. By partnering directly

28:46

with top factories, Quince cuts

28:48

out the cost of the

28:50

middleman and passes the savings

28:52

on to us. This is

28:54

why I love. Quince. I

28:57

don't just have one. I

28:59

don't just have two. But

29:01

I have three Mongolian Kashmir

29:03

sweaters. I absolutely love the

29:05

style, the quality and the

29:07

price. It's so easy to

29:09

shop with Quince. But the

29:11

best part is how the

29:13

clothes make me feel. I'm

29:15

styling and I'm profiling. Give

29:17

yourself the luxury you deserve

29:19

with quince.com/garage for free shipping

29:21

on your order and 365

29:24

day returns. That's quince.com/garage to

29:26

get free shipping and 365

29:28

day returns. quince.com/garage. Did you

29:30

know fast-growing trees is the

29:32

biggest online nursery in the

29:34

US with thousands of different

29:36

plants and over two million

29:38

happy customers? I'm one of

29:40

those happy customers. Fast-growing trees

29:42

has all the plants your

29:44

yard needs from fruit trees

29:46

to shrubs. Find the perfect

29:48

fit. for your climate and

29:51

space, then order online for

29:53

fast delivery. and thrive guarantee

29:55

ensures healthy arrivals and their

29:57

plant experts are available to

29:59

help with planning, selection, and

30:01

care. This is why I

30:03

love fast-growing trees. They're plant

30:05

experts. I have a very

30:07

shady backyard. Everything I planted

30:09

didn't thrive. They were able

30:11

to tell me what would

30:13

work best in my space

30:15

and climate. And when your

30:18

yard is looking good, it

30:20

makes you feel good. This

30:22

spring, they have the best

30:24

deals. for your yard. Up

30:26

to half off on select

30:28

plants and other deals. And

30:30

listeners of our show get

30:32

15% off their first purchase

30:34

when using Code Garage at

30:36

checkout. That's an additional 15%

30:38

off at Fast Growing trees.com

30:40

using the code Garage at

30:42

Checkout. Fast Growing trees.com Code

30:45

Garage. Now's the perfect time

30:47

to plant. Use Garage to

30:49

save today. Offer is valid

30:51

for a limited time. Terms

30:53

and conditions may apply. Check

30:55

out fast-growing trees.com and use

30:57

promo code garage today. This

30:59

show is sponsored by Better

31:01

Help. I found that therapy

31:03

can be a big investment

31:05

for both your state of

31:07

mind and your physical health.

31:09

Let's talk numbers. Traditional in-person

31:12

therapy can cost anywhere from

31:14

$100 to $250 per session,

31:16

which adds up fast, but

31:18

Better Help Online therapy, you

31:20

can save on average up

31:22

to 50% per session. With

31:24

better help you pay a

31:26

flat fee for weekly sessions

31:28

saving you big on cost

31:30

and on time. Therapy should

31:32

feel accessible not like a

31:34

luxury. With online therapy you

31:37

can get quality care at

31:39

a price that makes sense.

31:41

Your mental health is worth

31:43

it and now it's within

31:45

reach. With over 30,000 therapists

31:47

better help is the world's

31:49

largest online therapy platform. Having

31:51

served over 5 million people

31:53

globally. It's convenient too. You

31:55

can join a session with

31:57

the click. of a button,

31:59

helping you fit therapy into

32:01

your busy life. Plus, switch

32:04

therapist at any time. Your

32:06

well-being is worth it. Visit

32:08

betterhelp.com/garage to get 10% off

32:10

your first month. That's better

32:12

help, h-e-l-p.com/garage. If you're a

32:14

pet parent, you know about

32:16

chewy. And when they say

32:18

they have everything you need

32:20

to keep your pet happy

32:22

and healthy, they're not messing

32:24

around. Chewy has over 100,000

32:26

products from all of the

32:28

brands your pet loves at

32:31

prices you love. And with

32:33

Chewy's auto ship feature, you'll

32:35

never get that I'm so

32:37

disappointed in you look from

32:39

your pet. You can set

32:41

up reoccurring shipments of all

32:43

of the essentials you use

32:45

so you're never running out

32:47

and can change or cancel

32:49

your auto ship order at

32:51

any time. It's super convenient

32:53

and one less thing you

32:55

have to worry about. Chewy

32:58

has everything you need to

33:00

keep your pet happy and

33:02

healthy. And right now you

33:04

can save $20 on your

33:06

first order and get free

33:08

shipping by going to chewy.com/garage.

33:10

That's chewy.com/garage to save $20

33:12

on your first order with

33:14

free shipping. chewy.com/garage. Minimum purchase

33:16

required. New customers only. Terms

33:18

and conditions apply C-site for

33:20

complete details. All

33:40

right, we are back, talk

33:42

hands in the air, party

33:44

to the people in the

33:46

back. Thanks for telling your

33:48

mother and thanks for telling

33:50

your brother. Cheers to you,

33:52

Colonel. Cheers to you, Captain.

33:54

Now, I had said in

33:56

episode 660 that there are

33:58

cases that I think are

34:00

more frightening and of course

34:02

all these cases and stories

34:04

affect each and every one

34:06

of us in a different

34:08

manner. But due to the

34:10

daylight public place nature of

34:12

this case, I think this

34:14

has a greater effect on

34:16

the on the overall masses

34:18

when you think about it.

34:20

The parks are some are

34:22

areas that we all may

34:24

frequent. they're all available to

34:26

us if you live in

34:28

such a great area that

34:30

that has these beautiful parks

34:32

that you can go to

34:34

and even scarier bring your

34:36

families to and you don't

34:38

know who the others are

34:41

that may be showing up

34:43

as well because they're open

34:45

to the public. And so

34:47

I had said on episode

34:49

660 that there are cases

34:51

that I think are more

34:53

frightening than others. And when

34:55

we talk about a double

34:57

homicide, this double homicide that

34:59

takes place in broad daylight

35:01

in a public place, it

35:03

certainly makes one pause pause.

35:05

and really acknowledge that unfortunately

35:07

this terrifying situation could happen

35:09

to any of us at

35:11

any time. And I said

35:13

it again at the start

35:15

of this show. They're shot

35:17

and killed in daylight at

35:19

a public place at a

35:21

time of day when we

35:23

had a good amount of

35:25

traffic on nearby roads. Right,

35:27

but what do we know

35:29

about these killers? They, they're,

35:31

they get into these modes.

35:33

of seeking out opportunities. It's

35:35

a form of hunting humans.

35:37

And one of the cases,

35:39

I remember them talking about

35:41

this individual driving around. And

35:43

he spotted at night on

35:46

a college campus driving around

35:48

and they're like, what are

35:50

you doing? And he's honest

35:52

with them. I'm looking for

35:54

opportunities. This is part of

35:56

what happens. And if you

35:58

think I'm the only one

36:00

out there doing this, you're

36:02

insane. And so I think

36:04

there's... Because we've seen in

36:06

the last 10 years, how

36:08

many cases have been connected

36:10

to parks? I think it's

36:12

a type of, well, let's

36:14

go see if there's opportunity

36:16

because there's people. And there

36:18

are also, in these parks,

36:20

there's people in isolated areas.

36:22

And so I think it's

36:24

a form of looking for

36:26

opportunities or just, I think

36:28

some of these killers. They

36:30

almost get off on the

36:32

idea of just seeing that

36:34

there's a possibility. Well, that

36:36

person could be a victim.

36:38

That could be a situation.

36:40

They might not always act

36:42

upon it, but essentially what

36:44

they're doing is hunting humans.

36:46

You know, we've known throughout

36:48

history that there have been

36:51

a lot of cases where

36:53

a perpetrator... goes and looks

36:55

for a lone female jogger

36:57

in parks. And I also

36:59

think that there's a little

37:01

bit of, I think there's

37:03

a bit of a hyperbolic

37:05

nature to the alarm raised

37:07

on these murders that happen

37:09

in parks. And I think

37:11

a large part of that

37:13

is because it gets the

37:15

people's attention, right? And it

37:17

alarms everyone. And so while

37:19

it's much more common to

37:21

be killed on the streets

37:23

or killed in a home

37:25

by somebody that you know,

37:27

these ones, these park cases

37:29

tend to spread a little

37:31

further and a little wider

37:33

with the coverage because of

37:35

the public interest nature of

37:37

the cases. Now back to

37:39

this roofer, as said, by

37:41

the detective. He was the

37:43

first person of interest in

37:45

the case because they knew

37:47

that he was there before

37:49

during and after the murders.

37:51

Well, what was he doing?

37:53

Well, he was there working

37:56

in the area. earlier that

37:58

day, drove to find a

38:00

place to park and to

38:02

fill out work. He was

38:04

going to be busy doing

38:06

paperwork, is the best way

38:08

to describe it. He was busy

38:10

filling out work orders and estimates.

38:12

And the metro police say that

38:14

they took a really good look

38:16

at him. Specifically, they say that they

38:19

took a look at his electronics that

38:21

he was carrying with him that day.

38:23

This would be his cell, this would

38:25

be his tablet. and he's working on

38:28

a laptop or tablet in his cell

38:30

phone in his pickup truck after

38:32

5 p.m. parked in the parking

38:35

lot the gravel lot for

38:37

this park that afternoon after

38:39

5 p.m. and they say that

38:41

based off of the electronics

38:43

and the information on all

38:45

of those electronics that they

38:47

can confirm that he was

38:50

busy working on those activities

38:52

during the time of the murders.

38:54

So I guess They're saying his

38:57

electronic devices are his

38:59

alibi. Now, of course they're going

39:01

to ask him, did you see

39:03

anything? Did you hear anything? Right.

39:05

And he tells police he

39:07

didn't hear anything. Well, we know

39:10

three shots were fired. He didn't

39:12

hear anything. And on

39:14

unsolved mysteries, Carnell's mother

39:16

says, quote, I question that.

39:18

And I think that's, I think

39:20

she's right. I think she's spot

39:23

on. I would question that too. Well,

39:26

do we have any way

39:28

of knowing if a silencer

39:30

was used in the killings?

39:32

That is something that has

39:34

been brought forward and not

39:36

ruled out by law enforcement,

39:39

but I don't think that

39:41

they have anything telling them

39:43

if or if not a

39:45

silencer suppressor was used in

39:48

the commission of these murders. What

39:50

they do tell us, though, is

39:52

they are lacking a motive. here

39:55

in the case because there's

39:57

a couple things that really

39:59

add to the complexity of

40:01

this case. One, they don't know

40:03

why the two were meeting there that

40:06

day, the two victims. Right. They do

40:08

say that they've ruled out robbery as

40:10

the motive because Nell's wallet and

40:12

two cell phones were found in his

40:15

vehicle in plain sight, like just sitting

40:17

on the passenger seat. To me too,

40:19

his two cell phones, he had a

40:22

work cell phone and a personal

40:24

cell phone. So he has no cell

40:26

phone on him when he's sitting on

40:28

the park bench and he doesn't even

40:31

have his wallet. All these items are

40:33

in plain view on the passenger

40:35

seat of his car. That to me

40:37

backs up what the mother was saying

40:40

that she's like, I think this was

40:42

just a quick, very brief, hey,

40:44

we need to talk about something in

40:46

person and I'll be on my way

40:49

to grandma's house because he didn't even

40:51

bother to take his personal belongings out

40:53

of his personal belongings out of

40:55

the vehicle. And they also point out

40:58

that they did retrieve Kate's cell phone

41:00

at the murder scene. And I know

41:02

we went into this a little

41:04

bit earlier, but now was shot while

41:07

sitting on the bench. You brought up

41:09

an interesting angle that the killer may

41:11

have come back and shot now once

41:14

again. But we... can figure out

41:16

based off of the murder scene that

41:18

now was shot while sitting on the

41:20

bench Kate had just enough time to

41:23

stand up and probably attempt to

41:25

flee but if you look at the

41:27

crime scene yeah she's almost like a

41:29

caged animal at this point right like

41:32

she there's nowhere for her to go

41:34

you have the you have the

41:36

river in front of her and the

41:38

killer behind her And

41:41

so I don't even know that

41:43

she had much of a chance

41:46

to run because she gets up

41:48

from the bench and then the

41:50

killer strikes and she's found in

41:52

the water. Just a few inches

41:55

deep, I've seen at least one

41:57

report saying it was about 10

41:59

inches deep where she was found.

42:01

in the river. So she may

42:04

have just fallen in there or

42:06

decided the best, the only place

42:08

I can go is away from

42:10

the killer is toward the river.

42:13

But question to you, does the

42:15

actions that we see at the

42:17

crime scene tell you anything on

42:20

who you believe the true victim

42:22

was or was there a target?

42:24

Yeah, that's been a question over

42:26

and over again and some have

42:29

suggested because Carnell was shot first

42:31

that he was the target. My

42:33

my go to on this is

42:35

typically look unfortunately females are targeted

42:38

at a much higher percentage than

42:40

males and we do know in

42:42

certain situations actually in many situations

42:44

if there is a female victim

42:47

in male victim the male victim

42:49

poses the biggest threat to the

42:51

attacker. And so oftentimes the attacker

42:54

will try to eliminate the threat

42:56

first and then go after the

42:58

target. So that makes it all

43:00

of that thinking makes it very

43:03

difficult to come up with who

43:05

is the the likely target here

43:07

and keep in mind if this

43:09

is completely random then. Right. They're

43:12

just both the targets. You're not

43:14

really going to be able to

43:16

make any sense out of this.

43:18

But to me, I feel like

43:21

that most of these homicides are

43:23

isolated incidents. and if it were

43:25

to be that i think that

43:28

the proper the percentages are going

43:30

to tell you that kate would

43:32

have been the target carnal was

43:34

the threat the killer eliminated the

43:37

threat carnal was six foot four

43:39

like two hundred and twenty five

43:41

two hundred thirty pounds big dude

43:43

an athletic like yeah he's described

43:46

as a big teddy bear because

43:48

that was his personality but to

43:50

somebody that doesn't know him six

43:52

foot i mean That's that's somebody

43:55

that if if if if anybody

43:57

was going to defend in that

43:59

situation it would be him Yeah,

44:01

I almost believe that it if

44:04

it was personal or if this

44:06

was personal, then this would give

44:08

time for Kate to know who

44:11

the killer was. You see what

44:13

I'm saying? So if you truly

44:15

hated her and wanted her dead

44:17

and was following her for some

44:20

reason, and this was a park

44:22

that she went too often and

44:24

would go on walks and do

44:26

other stuff, so somebody could have.

44:29

Just been following her and said

44:31

hey, she's going to the park.

44:33

This is opportunity But by taking

44:35

out Carnell and She has at

44:38

least time to go. Oh, I

44:40

know who my killer is if

44:42

this is a personal issue But

44:45

that's it becomes so complex and

44:47

scope so convoluted that you I

44:49

don't know if you can even

44:51

determine if it was a personal

44:54

attack or not if she had

44:56

enough time to even turn around

44:58

i mean this to me looks

45:00

like very much like a blitz

45:03

attack now we do know that

45:05

the one of the detectives who

45:07

is reported to be either the

45:09

first on the scene or one

45:12

of the first officers on the

45:14

scene said that he believes that

45:16

the most likely place that the

45:19

killer came from were to be

45:21

either the parking lot or the

45:23

road, which I would like to

45:25

point out means almost coming from

45:28

almost the exact same positioning. And

45:30

he says that he believes that

45:32

the evidence supports that the two

45:34

victims were approached from behind and

45:37

then shots were fired three in

45:39

total. And like we said earlier,

45:41

the detective seemed less confident regarding

45:43

the suspect's route of egress. All

45:46

three bullet casings were found at

45:48

the scene in the water. They

45:50

had dive teams out there that

45:53

night and on at least two

45:55

other occasions. No gun was ever

45:57

found. Well wouldn't that possibly be

45:59

evidence that points that the shots

46:02

came from the water? Or do

46:04

you think it's a situation where

46:06

the killer collected the casings and

46:08

then dumped them in the water?

46:11

No, the bench was so close

46:13

to the water that I think

46:15

there would have been stippling on

46:17

the at least on cardinal, likely

46:20

on... likely on Kate as well

46:22

to suggest that this was fired

46:24

at very close range. The park

46:26

bench was very close. I mean,

46:29

it's, she's found in the water

46:31

six feet from the park bench.

46:33

That's how close the water is

46:36

to this park bench. I just,

46:38

I think that the bullet casings

46:40

just were expended and shot out

46:42

the side of the firearm and

46:45

fell into the water. Well, and

46:47

obviously if we have these kayakers

46:49

that are looking for a place

46:51

to... start their kayaking journey. There's

46:54

a long a riverbed, you're going

46:56

to find areas that go into

46:58

the water and then ones that

47:00

are more like little cliffs, if

47:03

that makes any sense. So this

47:05

area, like you said, it seems

47:07

to be more like an entrance

47:10

point to the water. So maybe

47:12

it's even possible that some of

47:14

these casings rolled down. Yeah, or

47:16

I mean, who knows? I mean,

47:19

the killer could have picked them

47:21

up and tossed them into the

47:23

water for all we know. But

47:25

the report is that the casings

47:28

were found in the water. Now

47:30

that's important because what it will

47:32

tell us, it doesn't tell us

47:34

who the killer is, but it

47:37

tells us what kind of gun

47:39

they use, what kind of caliber

47:41

they used, and they would have

47:44

ballistics, right? too much are at

47:46

the scene obviously and now you

47:48

have the casings as well. Well

47:50

if I'm law enforcement and Tell

47:53

me if I'm wrong. I get

47:55

to the scene, I have two

47:57

dead individuals. We don't know why

47:59

they were there. They're not a

48:02

couple. They don't really have a

48:04

history as far as like recent

48:06

exes that were abusive. I mean,

48:08

I think they have some exes

48:11

in their past that you might

48:13

want to look into, but I

48:15

don't know if they're recent, if

48:18

that makes any sense. You have

48:20

these kayakers, and then we have

48:22

this other individual, the roofer, the

48:24

roofer. and we know how the

48:27

victims were killed yeah by gun

48:29

so hey guys come down to

48:31

the station with me I'd love

48:33

to give you a polygraph test

48:36

and as we do that test

48:38

I would also like to do

48:40

some ballistics I want to see

48:42

if there was evidence of you

48:45

firing a gun that day yeah

48:47

well ballistics would be conducted on

48:49

a firearm but no you could

48:51

test a person for gunpowder residue

48:54

that's why I meant on on

48:56

there hands or their person. You'd

48:58

likely just use their hands. But

49:01

so I was trying to sound

49:03

sophisticated by using the wrong term

49:05

in the aftermath of this here,

49:07

Captain. What we end up with

49:10

is a double homicide that remains

49:12

unsolved. And the statements are all

49:14

agreed upon by law enforcement that

49:16

the two kayakers found the bodies

49:19

a very short time after they

49:21

were killed and immediately called 911.

49:23

Prior to that, the killer escaped

49:25

unnoticed and there were no witnesses

49:28

right we have the roofer says

49:30

he didn't see anything didn't hear

49:32

anything okay but but based on

49:35

what the kayakers say where was

49:37

the roofer when they showed up

49:39

he's sitting in his pickup truck

49:41

so because I'm just okay if

49:44

I'm just trying to be on

49:46

his side it's not out of

49:48

the realm of possibilities I've had

49:50

plumbers I've had construction people come

49:53

to my house handymen they do

49:55

some work they have paperwork that

49:57

they have to Send back to

49:59

their company. They might sit in

50:02

your driveway for a while and

50:04

do that they might sit in

50:06

your neighborhood of actually seen a

50:09

couple that drive down the street

50:11

a little bit and then just

50:13

sit there and fill out their

50:15

paperwork before they go to the

50:18

next location. It's very possible that

50:20

he knew of this park. He

50:22

pulled in there and he turned

50:24

on the radio and was blasting

50:27

some tunes. Right? And then he

50:29

just didn't hear anything. It wasn't

50:31

paying attention. His head was down

50:33

the whole time. Yes. But why

50:36

wouldn't you, again, why don't you

50:38

just test to see if any

50:40

of these three individuals fired a

50:43

gun that day? Well, and the

50:45

thing here too is, to back

50:47

up what you're saying, is I

50:49

have had one of those jobs

50:52

that required at the end of

50:54

the day, you're in a vehicle

50:56

for all of the day, and

50:58

then at the end of the

51:01

day, you're required to fill out

51:03

about a whole bunch of paperwork

51:05

and enter information via your phone

51:07

or a tablet. and it can

51:10

take 45 minutes to roughly an

51:12

hour. So oftentimes I would either

51:14

go to like a Wendy's and

51:17

get like a coffee and just

51:19

kind of sit there and fill

51:21

it out if it weren't such

51:23

a nice day. But if it

51:26

was a nice day out, we

51:28

know this to be a nice

51:30

day. I would find some place

51:32

nice, some place beautiful to park

51:35

and just fill everything out in

51:37

the vehicle in the work vehicle.

51:39

And so that appears to be

51:41

what he was doing or at

51:44

least. what he claims have been

51:46

doing. Now the FBI and the

51:48

families, they started off a reward

51:50

for information in this case. It

51:53

started at $20,000. It was increased

51:55

over time to eventually get up

51:57

to $100,000. There's some puzzling things

52:00

that we're going to get into

52:02

about the investigation in the case,

52:04

but one thing that angered me

52:06

that I expressed in episode 660

52:09

was The Brown family put up

52:11

signs at the park asking for

52:13

tips and these were brilliant signs.

52:15

It was like, were you here

52:18

or did you drive by on

52:20

this date between 508 and 522?

52:22

And these signs did lead to

52:24

people calling in and providing tips.

52:27

Now, the Metro Parks got angry

52:29

about these signs because they don't

52:31

want to advertise that two people

52:34

were murdered in their park. And

52:36

so the Brown family was forced

52:38

to remove these signs, which I

52:40

thought was absolutely ridiculous. If you

52:43

want to, you can, part of

52:45

policing is proactive, right? But some

52:47

cases, this one, being a great

52:49

example of that, is reactive. There

52:52

is, I can't see there being

52:54

any way of preventing. this crime

52:56

from a police or the parks

52:58

standpoint. So rather than trying to,

53:01

for the metro park to want

53:03

to hide and conceal this from

53:05

the people that might visit the

53:08

park because they want the people

53:10

to feel safe and they want

53:12

people to believe that the parks

53:14

are safe, I think what would

53:17

give off a better sense of

53:19

security to the people in your

53:21

community is that you solve the

53:23

damn homicides. You find the person

53:26

that did this and you therefore

53:28

you are it's instructive to others

53:30

that there's a consequence for this

53:32

type of action and it's going

53:35

to be severe That's the best

53:37

way to be proactive For a

53:39

case such as this now In

53:42

defense of the FBI they did

53:44

put up some billboards along busy

53:46

highways with information about the case

53:48

requesting tips from the general public

54:06

So much more to get to

54:08

to in part Join us back here

54:10

in the garage. here Until then,

54:12

be good, be kind, be and

54:15

don't litter. and don't litter. Hey,

54:52

this is Jeff from Radio Andy. and

54:54

and catch me talking with my

54:56

friends about my latest about my

54:58

relationship issues, and bodily ailments. With

55:00

that kind of drama that

55:02

seems to follow me, you of

55:04

know what's going to happen. to follow

55:06

can listen to Jeff Lewis to

55:08

at home or anywhere you

55:10

are. Download the anywhere you are. for

55:12

over 425 for over 425 channels music, sports,

55:14

entertainment, and more. Subscribe now

55:16

and get three months free. Offer

55:18

details details apply.