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and turbo tax.com. We

1:19

are using all available resources

1:22

to bring justice of the

1:24

victims of this tragedy. We

1:26

continue to use all available

1:28

resources in this investigation with

1:30

the support from the Cleveland

1:32

Division of the FBI and

1:34

the Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner's

1:36

Office. I'd now like to

1:38

introduce Special Agent in charge

1:40

of the Cleveland Division of

1:42

the FBI, Eric Smith. Good

1:47

afternoon ladies and gentlemen. My name is

1:49

Eric Smith. I'm the special agent in

1:52

charge of the Cleveland Division of the

1:54

FBI. I want to start by thanking

1:56

the Cleveland Metro Parks and the Cleveland

1:58

Metro Parks Police Department. for their partnership

2:01

and their professionalism in our collective

2:03

pursuit of justice for Kate Brown

2:05

and Carnell Sledge. As Chief Dolan

2:08

has already laid out some of

2:10

the publicly releasable facts in this

2:12

unsolved case, I would like to

2:15

ask the public for assistance. The

2:17

area known as the Pull Off

2:19

Lot north of the Lorraine Road

2:21

Bridge in the Cleveland Metro Parks

2:24

Rocky River Fairview Park Reservation is

2:26

in a highly trafficked area. especially

2:28

in the late afternoon and

2:31

early evening weekday hours. There

2:33

are numerous joggers, walkers, bicyclists,

2:35

kayakers, and even vehicles cutting

2:37

through the area to avoid

2:40

interstate backups. And this is

2:42

true for this area on

2:44

any given day. Tuesday, June

2:46

4th. was a nice warm

2:49

early evening, temperatures in the

2:51

mid-70s, and accordingly there were

2:53

plenty of people and plenty

2:55

of activity in the park.

2:58

We're asking the public to take a

3:00

look at the maps displayed here.

3:02

If you were in the area

3:04

on the evening of Tuesday June

3:07

4th between 4.30 and 5.30 p.m.,

3:09

please contact law enforcement immediately. You

3:11

may have seen something that will

3:13

give us the key to solve

3:15

this investigation. a critical piece of

3:18

information that will lead us to

3:20

who is responsible for this horrific

3:22

double homicide. You may think that

3:24

what you saw was nothing or

3:27

was unrelated. We are asking you

3:29

not to dismiss anything. Let law

3:31

enforcement make that decision and

3:33

we need your assistance. Reward

3:35

money has been offered by

3:37

the FBI up to $20,000

3:39

and by crime stoppers up

3:41

to $2,500. for tips that

3:44

lead us to the identification

3:46

and prosecution of the person

3:48

or persons responsible. Tips can

3:50

remain anonymous and can be

3:52

provided to Cleveland Metro Parks,

3:54

the Cleveland FBI, or crime

3:56

stoppers. We want to hold

3:58

the individuals accountable. that have

4:00

committed this horrific act and we

4:02

also want to provide answers to

4:04

Kate and Carnell's family and friends.

4:28

I want to get into parts

4:31

of this article because it goes

4:33

a little more into detail about

4:35

some questions that I have about

4:37

the case and questions I believe

4:39

that you share about this case

4:41

as well. This is from the

4:43

Cleveland scene which is a fantastic

4:45

alternative weekly newspaper based out of

4:48

Cleveland Ohio. This article's

4:50

headline is four years later

4:52

officials report no progress in

4:54

Metro Park's double homicide case

4:56

But fresh hope comes with

4:58

national coverage. So this came

5:00

out this article came out

5:02

two days After the the

5:04

unsolved mysteries episode. They're hoping

5:06

that would rejuvenate the investigation

5:08

So I'm only going to read

5:11

parts of this here some of

5:13

the parts here say this investigators

5:15

have gotten many Scores of tips

5:17

and conducted some 270 interviews, but

5:20

who killed Carnell, Sledge, age 40,

5:22

and Catherine Kate Brown, age 33

5:24

of Fairview Park, in the Rocky

5:26

River Reservation on June 4th, 2019,

5:28

remains a mystery. They've received 165

5:31

tips during the course of this

5:33

investigation. The Metro Parks Police say

5:35

that they are in regular communications

5:37

with the families and that their

5:39

priority remains bringing justice to the

5:42

victims and their families. But Tom

5:44

Brown, Kate Brown's father, disagrees with

5:46

this statement. He finds it inconceivable

5:48

that the Metro Parks Police haven't

5:51

made any progress in solving the

5:53

killings or that they claim to

5:55

have routine contact with the family.

5:57

Both families, Nell's

5:59

family and Kate's

6:02

family has expressed

6:04

openly, multiple times,

6:07

their concern about the lack

6:09

of communication from the Metro

6:11

Parks police. There is some

6:13

confusion from the families because

6:15

it seems like Carnell's family

6:17

is like, well, we don't

6:19

have any reason to believe

6:21

that somebody hated Carnell and wanted

6:24

him dead. So we

6:26

think there's somebody in Kate's

6:28

life that possibly wanted her dead.

6:30

And then Kate's family is like,

6:32

well, there's nobody in Kate's life that

6:34

we think wanted her dead. So we

6:36

think Carnell was the target.

6:38

Yeah. And when you see

6:40

and read interviews with the family

6:42

members, they are at a

6:45

loss. They really are at the

6:47

longer that this investigation drags

6:49

on the more questions they seem

6:51

to have. Now, a group

6:53

that probably could have provided

6:55

some assistance or some answers

6:57

to a lot of those

6:59

questions is the VDoC Society. So

7:01

this angers

7:04

me to a whole another level here,

7:06

Captain. Want to get pissed? Let's

7:08

get pissed. Okay. So

7:10

a man named Kelly

7:12

Tillman became the interim ranger

7:14

chief. So from my understanding,

7:16

that's the highest ranking Metro Parks

7:18

officer, basically the chief of

7:20

police. He was in keep in

7:23

mind, it's interim position. So

7:25

I don't believe he was there

7:27

too very long, but he

7:29

took the position in November of

7:31

2021. So he's already behind

7:33

the eight ball because this was

7:35

not his case as a

7:37

chief. It happened in 2019. He

7:40

takes over November of 2021. But the

7:42

problem with him taking over in my

7:44

opinion is that there was already something

7:46

in the works. So at

7:48

the time lead investigator was Nick Valenti. He

7:51

had a proposal

7:53

to the

7:55

Metro Parks Police

7:57

Department to

7:59

bring in the

8:01

VDoC Society,

8:03

which is a

8:05

nonprofit 82

8:07

member group of

8:09

retired professional

8:12

criminal. investigators who are willing

8:14

to for the investigation and telling

8:16

you, hey, maybe you should take

8:18

your investigation here, or maybe you

8:21

miss this. Here's these couple of

8:23

items that you should go back

8:25

and review. The lead investigator, Nick

8:28

Valenti, says that the Vedox Society

8:30

was willing to assist in the

8:32

Cape Brown and Nelsledge murder case.

8:35

The V-Doc Society accepts both cold

8:37

cases and ongoing investigations that are

8:40

at least two years or older,

8:42

but only if invited in by

8:44

the Jurisdictional Law Enforcement Agency, which

8:47

of course in this case would

8:49

be the Metro Parks. They only

8:51

accept a few cases each year.

8:54

And with them saying that, yeah,

8:56

we're willing to take this one

8:59

on, that is good news. Because

9:01

a lot of cases they don't

9:03

take on. Most they don't. This

9:06

was good news. This guy steps

9:08

in as the chief and says,

9:10

no, we're going to mix that.

9:13

We don't need to bring in

9:15

any other foreign agency. We don't

9:17

need the Vedox Society helping in

9:20

this case. So the Cleveland scene

9:22

doing their due diligence, they went

9:25

and wanted answers and said that

9:27

they came away saying that the

9:29

Metro Parks Police Department declined to

9:32

comment on why they won't allow

9:34

other agencies to assist in the

9:36

investigation. And we already talked about

9:39

the metro parks removing the signs,

9:41

but the Browns point out like

9:44

why would you do that? This

9:46

was bringing in tips and you

9:48

are actively and the FBI put

9:51

up $20,000 asking the public for

9:53

assistance. You were actively asking the

9:55

public for help for information and

9:58

you keep saying over. over again

10:00

that somebody must have seen something

10:02

or heard something somebody knows

10:05

something we need this person to come

10:07

forward yet you're forcing this

10:09

family to take down these signs

10:11

which the brown family says we're

10:13

providing tips to law enforcement those

10:16

signs were actively collecting tips

10:18

for law enforcement I don't

10:20

understand actions by anybody in

10:22

a case that when you hear

10:25

about the actions it's counterintuitive on

10:27

solving a murder case right When

10:29

we have these posters up, we're

10:31

going to take those posters

10:33

down. Isn't that

10:35

counterintuitive to solving

10:37

the crime? Why are you doing

10:39

that? And then also, like, we

10:41

reach out for help, we get

10:44

accepted, but then we don't

10:46

accept the help. That's

10:48

also counterintuitive

10:50

to solving the crime. From

10:53

an elite group. Is it

10:55

possible that there's somebody that

10:57

maybe... the Metro parks feel

10:59

is involved in this crime and

11:02

that it's an internal matter? I

11:04

don't suspect that. I think that

11:06

when I continue on with

11:08

this article, you'll, I think you

11:10

might have ended up sharing the

11:13

same suspicions that I have as

11:15

far as the Metro parks police

11:17

concern. So let's talk about some

11:19

of this other stuff that's in

11:22

the article. Alex Zubam. This is

11:24

Kate's younger sister, says that

11:26

she knew intimate details of

11:28

Kate's life. But when she

11:30

made suggestions to investigators,

11:32

they ignored or postponed

11:34

her. She's saying, when we

11:36

suggested other ways to get

11:39

information from Kate's phone for

11:41

evidence, they refused our ideas.

11:43

And she goes on to say that

11:45

when I suggested that they look

11:48

into certain contacts of Kate, They

11:50

never did any follow-up on

11:52

those contacts that she provided

11:54

to them. Of course, the

11:56

sledges or the sledge family

11:59

are equally... as disappointed as the

12:01

Browns that the Metro Park's refusal

12:03

to allow the VDOC society to

12:05

help with the investigation now The

12:07

kayakers/witnesses they didn't hear anything see

12:09

anything other than unfortunately finding the

12:11

bodies and calling 9 -1 -1 They

12:13

are Tony and Caitlyn Vaca and

12:15

that's VACH a so I apologize

12:17

if I if I'm getting their

12:19

names incorrect but Caitlyn One of

12:22

the kayakers shares that she and

12:24

her husband Tony were trying to

12:26

find a spot to launch and

12:28

that's when they found the bodies

12:30

She says the experience haunts her

12:32

still to this day and she

12:34

even broke down during the course

12:36

of talking to the Reporter here

12:38

for this article and Caitlyn feels

12:40

strongly that investigators handled the crime

12:42

scene poorly quote I kept thinking

12:44

about the first responders. She says

12:46

how they should have closed the

12:49

road and not touched the bodies

12:51

We thought it was odd that

12:53

they let people on the scene

12:55

go so soon. I thought they

12:57

were very casual They allowed a

12:59

guy who pulled up just before

13:01

the police Arrived to walk his

13:03

dog through the area and then

13:05

they told us we could leave

13:07

According to public reports including police

13:09

audio recordings from the crime scene

13:11

and accounts from the witnesses who

13:13

discovered the bodies Metro Parks Police

13:16

failed to shut down the Valley

13:18

Parkway for close to 45 minutes

13:20

and Then

13:22

let's circle back to something here

13:24

because it's right here in the

13:26

article public records also show that

13:28

the witness sitting in his pickup

13:30

truck parked in the close by

13:32

Lot during the killings says he

13:35

didn't see or hear anything because

13:37

he was immersed in work on

13:39

his laptop Caitlyn one of the

13:41

kayakers says she observed him sitting

13:43

in his pickup truck and that

13:45

he didn't get out until after

13:47

police arrived She also said investigators

13:50

didn't do thorough questioning of witnesses

13:52

at the crime scene saying quote

13:54

I've always wondered about the guy

13:56

sitting in the truck. I mean

13:58

I was right there crying clearly

14:00

things were happening but he stayed in his truck. And

14:02

quote, Tony, Caitlin's husband,

14:04

is the other witness who found

14:07

the bodies. He says he was

14:09

surprised by the lack of

14:11

crime scene protocol. Quote, there

14:13

was no police tape, no

14:15

boundaries to protect the evidence.

14:17

Worse, they didn't question witnesses

14:20

the way they should have. They treated

14:22

it like a stolen package off

14:24

of someone's porch. Kate's

14:26

sister Lauren echoes. the kayaker's comments saying

14:29

the witness who was sitting in his

14:31

pickup truck nearby at the time of

14:33

the killings was let go than called

14:35

back later. He was not tested at the

14:38

crime scene for gun powder. And then

14:40

we have Cornell's friend, this is Jeff

14:42

Schwartz, who says he feels the Metro

14:44

Parks bungled the investigation since the get-go.

14:47

Quote, everything that could go wrong from

14:49

the beginning has, he says. I would

14:51

rather have a detective from law and

14:53

order trying to solve this. Now, in episode

14:56

660, I pointed out the

14:58

inexperience that the Metro Parks

15:00

has, has with homicides. Even

15:02

better reason to bring in

15:04

somebody like the Vedox Society.

15:06

We do know, in their

15:08

defense, they did bring in the

15:10

FBI. Right. So the FBI has

15:12

been some part of this. The

15:14

MF FBI, but it's also not

15:16

just a homicide, it's a double

15:18

homicide. Yeah. And according to

15:21

Unsolved Mysteries, both families have a lot

15:23

of questions about the man in the

15:25

truck, the man sitting in his truck,

15:27

the witness that saw nothing, heard nothing,

15:30

and is referred to only as the roofer

15:32

on Unsolved Mysteries. Both families

15:34

have said we want to know more about

15:36

this witness. Right. Absolutely you'd want

15:38

to know more about him. You'd want to

15:40

know more about the kayakers too. So we

15:43

hear a true crime garage said the same

15:45

thing. We want to know more about this

15:47

roofer. the guy in the

15:49

truck because per police we

15:51

only have three known potential

15:53

witnesses the kayaking couple in the

15:55

roofer the man in the truck but

15:58

the kayakers are named on a and

16:00

they're named again in

16:02

multiple articles including the

16:05

Cleveland scene article that

16:07

I just reviewed with all

16:09

of you. Why isn't the roofer

16:11

named on unsolved mysteries or in

16:13

any article? Because it's fishy.

16:16

So here's the problem. There's

16:18

a lot of problems. Okay, so

16:20

they did talk to this roofer

16:22

guy. Right. They are claiming they being

16:24

Metro Parks. detectives are claiming that

16:26

he couldn't have done it because

16:28

he was we checked his electronics

16:30

and he was doing what he

16:32

said he was doing at the

16:34

time he was working. The reports I

16:37

have is that that park bench again

16:39

this is the statement from law

16:41

enforcement is the park bench where

16:43

they were killed is visible from

16:45

this parking lot and visible from

16:47

the road that runs to that parking

16:49

lot that gravel lot. We know

16:51

based off of the dash cam footage

16:54

from the detective that there were only

16:56

five cars in that lot when

16:58

they arrived on the scene and

17:01

this again it's 11 minute window

17:03

when they were killed because we

17:05

can based off of witness

17:07

statements we can surmise that

17:10

they were killed before the

17:12

kayakers arrived why because we

17:14

know from police statements that

17:16

the roofer was there before

17:18

during and after the murders

17:21

According to the kayakers, he

17:23

never gets, they arrive, they then find

17:25

the bodies, they call 911 and they

17:28

wait for police, police arrive, the roofer

17:30

never gets out of the pickup truck

17:32

until after police are on the scene.

17:35

Well, so am I nuts to think

17:37

that law enforcement has some eyewitness

17:39

that can put his truck,

17:41

the roofers truck, in that lot

17:43

before there's any other vehicles?

17:46

They don't have to, he puts himself

17:48

there. Right. Okay, so then on

17:50

top of that now. So he's telling law

17:53

enforcement I was there as doing this

17:55

work to other people pulled in. Yeah, because

17:57

they're going to say what time did you

17:59

arrive? and oh you're still here

18:01

while we're on the scene so

18:04

they know that he's there prior

18:06

to they they they being law

18:08

enforcement have said he was there

18:10

before cardinal and k arrived he

18:12

was there before the kayakers

18:14

arrived kayakers arrived and find

18:17

the two dead now when police arrive

18:19

on the scene we have five

18:22

vehicles this is literally minutes

18:24

after the two were killed

18:26

there's 11 minute window when

18:28

they were killed Police were

18:30

on the scene probably six minutes

18:32

to eight minutes after that 11-minute

18:35

window and when they pull up

18:37

we can see from their dashboard

18:39

camera footage that there are five vehicles

18:42

in that lot. Two belong to

18:44

the victims. One belong to the

18:46

pickup truck roofer guy. One belongs

18:49

to the kayakers, one belongs to

18:51

the kayakers reference saying that they

18:53

question the crime scene because they

18:56

let a guy that showed up to walk

18:58

his dog through the area. So that guy

19:00

shows up after the kayakers but before

19:02

the police. So he didn't kill him

19:04

unless he for some weird reason came

19:06

back to the scene and wanted to

19:09

be there when police were arriving. Let's

19:11

go back to what we had said

19:13

earlier. This is the the area

19:15

is known as a pull-off lot.

19:17

It's highly traffic, numerous joggers, walkers,

19:19

kayakers, vehicles cut through the area, so

19:22

forth and so on. Why isn't this roofer

19:24

named? The kayakers are named. We did

19:26

some digging. The roofer is Charles

19:28

Adams. That's his name. He's referred

19:31

to as the roofer

19:33

and unsolved mysteries. Unsolved

19:35

mysteries in these articles,

19:38

apparently there's things that were

19:40

either not known, what I believe to

19:42

be not known, I don't think

19:44

that these things were purposely

19:46

left out. But his statements

19:49

to police is this. He did

19:51

not hear any gunshots. But

19:53

what he tells police is, I

19:55

didn't hear anything. So

19:57

it must have been a low

19:59

caliber. weapon, possibly a 22. Well

20:02

it was a 22 that killed

20:04

the victims. So I guess good guess

20:06

there Chuck. When asked if he see

20:08

the victims, so he says, yeah

20:10

I saw these people arrive, I

20:13

didn't see anybody else arrive, right?

20:15

I see the victims arrive, then

20:17

I saw the kayakers arrive. Did

20:19

you see them shot? No, I saw them,

20:22

I thought they were sleeping. And I

20:24

want to I want to be clear here.

20:26

I don't know if his statement was I

20:28

saw them or I saw Cardinal and I thought

20:31

he was sleeping because from this vantage

20:33

point from this guy's pickup truck he

20:35

would have been able to see the

20:38

park bench and therefore we can

20:40

take that a little bit further and

20:42

make the assumption that if he could

20:44

see the park bench he could see

20:46

Cardinal lying next to it after having

20:49

been shot. The family wants to know

20:51

more about this guy. And I agree

20:53

with that. I think their

20:55

intuition is spot on here.

20:57

The information we've uncovered

20:59

is that he is a gun nut,

21:01

referred to as a gun nut, who

21:03

not only own firearms, but is

21:06

believed to have carried them at

21:08

most times. There are people out

21:10

there very close to this

21:12

investigation that have a firm

21:14

belief that had they searched his

21:16

truck or him. at the scene

21:19

that they likely would have found

21:21

at least one firearm on his

21:23

person. Now we know based off

21:25

of the statements from the Brown

21:27

family and the kayakers that the

21:29

police talked to him briefly and

21:32

then let him go and then

21:34

decided to call him back to the

21:36

scene. Yeah, not a good move. Wouldn't

21:38

you at the very least like say,

21:40

all right, we need kayakers? Rufur, we

21:43

need you guys to stay at the

21:45

scene and oh, by the way, would

21:47

you mind if we could search your

21:49

vehicles? Because hell, if you

21:51

find a firearm in somebody's

21:54

vehicle at the scene, you

21:56

probably got to murder her. Later...

22:00

We find out that this individual,

22:02

the roofer, has failed at least

22:04

one polygraph test. I believe that

22:06

it was conducted by the FBI

22:08

and we do know that he

22:10

has a history of violence and

22:13

has since left the state of

22:15

Ohio. He no longer resides here

22:17

in the state of Ohio. Do we know

22:19

how long after the murders it was

22:22

that he moved away? I couldn't

22:24

find confirmation of that other than

22:26

it was... several months, so it

22:28

wasn't like he up and skipped

22:30

town immediately or the week after.

22:33

Do you know what the violent charges

22:35

were? At least one domestic

22:37

case. So possibly just hates

22:39

women? That he was convicted

22:41

of. This isn't suspicion. This isn't

22:43

accusations. This is he was convicted

22:46

of it. So a history, a

22:48

known history of violence. All

22:50

right, let's take this a step further

22:52

here. Because there's actually a

22:55

potential connection between Charles

22:57

the roofer and one of the

22:59

victims. Really? Oh, really? So remember

23:01

we had said, you had

23:03

said that Kate rightfully, so

23:06

she lived in an apartment

23:08

complex, a very large apartment

23:10

complex, very near the crime scene.

23:12

And that is in large part

23:14

why she would frequent that portion

23:16

of the park. She would often

23:18

exercise there, go there for

23:21

walks, taking the natural beauty

23:23

of the scenery. and also

23:25

meet people there regularly friends

23:27

acquaintances you know rather than

23:30

dropping by my apartment hey

23:32

it's beautiful out there's this

23:34

beautiful park that's so very

23:36

close to my home my apartment

23:39

let's meet there this man lived in

23:41

the live not far from the park

23:43

as well so he lives almost

23:45

directly across from Kate's apartment

23:47

building at the time of the murders.

23:50

Now the other part too is it

23:52

was discovered that around the time of

23:54

the murders Charles the roofer was

23:56

having multiple affairs utilizing tender to

23:59

set up and set up

24:01

these encounters with women. It's conceivable

24:04

that if Kate was actively using

24:06

tinder, that there's a chance that

24:08

they could have matched just from proximity

24:11

and age. They were both about the

24:13

same age and they both lived in

24:15

the same area. And now compound

24:18

that information with what Brown's

24:20

family, Kate Brown's family is

24:22

saying on unsolved mysteries, that

24:24

she was actively using tinder

24:26

at the time of her

24:28

murder. Yeah, she went on

24:30

a date using tender, I

24:32

think like a couple days

24:34

before the murders. And so then

24:36

we got a question, well, why

24:38

is Cornell there? Is it possible

24:41

that she's like, hey, Cornell,

24:43

I've been I've been matched with

24:45

this guy on tender. I'm going

24:47

to meet him at the park.

24:49

Do you mind coming with me?

24:51

So I got to break it off.

24:53

Yeah, break it off? Or maybe it's,

24:55

you're meeting them for the

24:58

first time. And so you have a

25:00

friend there. You meet and

25:02

the thought is, if it's going

25:04

well, then we'll continue on our

25:07

date and you go about your

25:09

business, you know, Cornell

25:11

goes about his business

25:13

and goes back to

25:15

his family's house. The

25:17

tender connection is very strange.

25:19

They would have had to,

25:21

like you said, because of

25:23

the age range and

25:25

because of proximity, I believe.

25:28

Tinder is all about how, there's

25:30

like parameters that you put

25:32

in when you're looking for

25:34

individuals. So they're going

25:36

to show you people that are in

25:39

your close area. Yeah, the colonel's

25:41

not looking for 80 year old

25:43

women who live in India, right?

25:46

You're, you would be looking for,

25:48

it's conceivable that you're probably looking

25:50

for somebody about your same age

25:53

range and it would make sense

25:55

that they, they live or,

25:57

or work.

26:00

frequent similar areas. Close proximity. The

26:02

captain's going to start a dating

26:04

app called Close Areas. Here's the

26:06

thing, and it makes you wonder,

26:09

did the interim chief not want

26:11

the assistance of the VDOC society

26:13

because they're going to review this

26:16

and go what the hell guys

26:18

this guy in the pickup truck

26:20

you let him go from the

26:23

scene with a with a very

26:25

general statement that doesn't make any

26:27

sense we know he was there

26:30

before during and after the murders

26:32

he didn't hear anything he didn't

26:34

see anything he tells you that

26:37

Oh, I didn't hear anything. It

26:39

must have been a small caliber

26:41

weapon, like a 22, a 22

26:44

caliber weapon. It turns out to

26:46

be the murder weapon. And oh,

26:48

I saw one of the victims

26:51

and I thought he was sleeping.

26:53

Who sleeps? Look, maybe, you know,

26:55

I've seen homeless people, you know,

26:58

I like to call him houseless

27:00

people, sleeping in the park during

27:02

the daytime. Not a lot. It's

27:05

very rare, but I have witnessed

27:07

this, so maybe that. was his

27:09

statement to police but but then

27:12

the other there's a lot of

27:14

problems I have here too so

27:16

the FBI comes in and the

27:19

FBI says look we've done everything

27:21

we can we we sent this

27:23

to our behavioral science unit for

27:26

a profile well if you guys

27:28

really want help of from the

27:30

public where's the profile right as

27:33

vanilla as it may be released

27:35

some of the profile or all

27:37

of the profile to the public

27:40

I hate when law enforcement limps

27:42

in asking for help from the

27:44

public Yeah, not doing this. Help

27:46

me to help you. Help me

27:49

to help you. The more, the

27:51

more that we know, the better

27:53

we can help in the situation.

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That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot

29:01

com slash garage. Code

29:03

garage at checkout. Our

29:13

family's lives are changed forever

29:15

the moment we were told our

29:17

beloved Kate was brutally murdered.

29:20

Kate's sister Alex Zubin spoke

29:22

alongside her father Tom Brown

29:24

today as they announced an

29:26

increase to the reward for

29:29

information that helps solve this

29:31

Metro Park's murder mystery. As

29:33

a family, we have raised

29:35

an additional $70,000. This raises

29:37

the total reward to $100,000

29:40

for information. Metro Parks Rangers

29:42

and the FBI acknowledged they don't have

29:44

much to go on, but they remained

29:47

relentless, promising to work the case as

29:49

if it happened yesterday. Law enforcement will

29:51

not rest until Kate and Carnell's killer

29:53

is brought to justice. Meanwhile, Alex and

29:56

Tom continue to praise the sister and

29:58

daughter they miss so much. friend. Talked

30:00

every day. I still call her

30:02

and leave her voicemails. She was

30:04

at the top of her game.

30:06

She was enjoying life. She loved

30:09

going down to the park. She

30:11

would go down with her mom

30:13

and play cards, sit on a

30:15

blanket, and I can't believe we're

30:17

standing here. Anyone with information should

30:19

call crime stoppers or Metro Parks

30:21

Rangers, knowing they can help a

30:23

family heal while remaining anonymous. All

30:34

right, we are back. Cheers, mates,

30:36

cheers to the people in the

30:39

front, back, the sides, cheers to

30:41

you, Colonel. There are so many

30:43

questions in this case. We have

30:45

these two individuals. I guess the

30:48

first question is, why were they

30:50

meeting at the park? Why was

30:53

he meeting at the time that he

30:55

was supposed to be going over

30:57

to his family's house? What were

31:00

they going to be talking about?

31:02

What was talked about on... the

31:04

cell phone call before they met

31:06

up. Was anybody following them

31:08

or was or was the

31:11

suspect there at the time

31:13

of the murders? Was the

31:15

suspect just passing by?

31:17

Why didn't this eyewitness hear

31:20

anything, see anything when he

31:22

was there? Just feet away

31:24

from the crime scene doesn't

31:27

make any sense. Let's dive

31:29

more into this quote unquote

31:31

eyewitness. So is there anything

31:34

that we can learn about

31:36

this eyewitness's history? Does he

31:38

have any prior convictions?

31:41

Is he a violent individual?

31:43

That's the thing. I want

31:45

to be clear here. Prior to

31:47

the homicides, I don't know if

31:49

he has a history of violence.

31:51

I believe that that the what

31:54

his conviction came after

31:56

the murders. But regardless,

31:58

he has a history. of violence now,

32:00

so we know he's capable of being

32:03

a violent individual. Let's go back to

32:05

the problems with the investigation, okay? If

32:07

you say that the person may have

32:10

used a suppressor, well, we know this

32:12

to be fact. You have to be

32:14

issued a stamp by the ATF. You

32:16

have to purchase the stamp. It's a

32:19

long drawn out process and you have

32:21

to keep that. It's basically a license

32:23

that you can have a silencer. And

32:26

at any time the ATF can knock

32:28

on the kernel's door and say, all

32:30

right, we want to see your stamp

32:33

that was issued for your silencer, your

32:35

suppressor, and we want to see the

32:37

suppressor that matches that stamp, the serial

32:39

number. So that would be something that

32:42

you could check, right? You got three

32:44

people at the scene. You could check

32:46

if any of them have been issued

32:49

a stamp for a suppress. It's rare

32:51

to get one. It's difficult to get

32:53

one. Most people don't have them. That

32:56

doesn't seem to have been done. There's

32:58

no indication that they searched either vehicle.

33:00

There's people that close to the investigation

33:02

say that they believe that you would

33:05

have found a gun on the roofer.

33:07

They're not saying, look, the roofers the

33:09

murder. They're saying, these are things that

33:12

should have been done. And frankly, look,

33:14

you said if maybe he had the

33:16

radio cranked up and that would make

33:19

some sense. Yeah. But look, if he

33:21

didn't, and of course windows rolled up,

33:23

what have you, it was a warm

33:25

day. who knows if his windows were

33:28

rolled up or not but look it's

33:30

been reported that the park bench was

33:32

75 to maybe 80 feet from the

33:35

gravel lot right 75 feet to 75

33:37

to 80 feet from the gravel lot

33:39

just as an exercise just for for

33:42

my own amusement I decided to to

33:44

walk in time how long it would

33:46

take me to walk 75 to 80

33:48

feet so for me to walk 80

33:51

feet so for me to walk 80

33:53

feet Originally I had wrote down and

33:55

guess it would take me 30 seconds

33:58

conservatively. Right. Actually, once I timed it...

34:00

I did it three times and I

34:02

got times of 22 seconds, 23 seconds,

34:05

25 seconds. But were you doing the

34:07

type of walk where you put

34:09

your feet really close together and

34:11

you scrunch your butt cheeks together?

34:13

Yes, because that's how I

34:15

assume the murderer approached the victims.

34:18

No, I did it in a manner much

34:20

like we saw in the Liz Baraza

34:22

nest cam footage, the perpetrator

34:24

of that murder where the...

34:26

where we don't know who

34:29

the perpetrator was, but as

34:31

I said in that episode,

34:33

Liz Baraza still unsolved, Texas.

34:35

The killer appears to be

34:37

walking very purposefully up to

34:39

the victim before shooting her.

34:42

And in a weird way, that

34:44

case shares some similarities to

34:46

the case we're discussing today.

34:48

Yeah, very much so. When I time

34:50

those walks, 22 seconds, 23 seconds,

34:52

and 25 seconds, okay, so you

34:54

mean to tell me that you

34:56

are saying on a national streaming

34:58

program, Unsolved Mysteries, that you can

35:01

confirm that he didn't kill them

35:03

because he was doing what he

35:05

said he was doing, which was

35:07

working on a laptop. The distance

35:09

travel, it's conceivable that he walked

35:11

up, approached them, shot them, and

35:13

returned to his truck in less

35:16

than two minutes time. Unless you

35:18

can prove that he's... jiggling a

35:20

mouse jiggling a mouse for every

35:22

second that he's there. You can't

35:24

eliminate him based off of that

35:27

because there's such such little time

35:29

it would have taken him to

35:31

shoot these people. Well also it's

35:33

possible that he gets in his

35:35

truck to leave and sees these kayakers

35:38

park and then thinks well shit

35:40

I can't leave now and especially

35:42

because his truck would have been

35:44

what we would consider here at the

35:47

garage to be Identifiable not

35:49

that maybe not that one particular but

35:51

he's a roofer right so he's going

35:53

to have he's going to have things related

35:55

to work on this truck he's going

35:57

to have likely ladders I don't know

36:00

for the doesn't carry ladders on

36:02

their vehicle. There could be signage,

36:04

like you're saying, on this vehicle.

36:06

Maybe he had got back to

36:08

the vehicle and realized, oh, I'm

36:11

kind of, I'm kind of stuck

36:13

here now for a second or

36:15

two. If I flee, maybe I

36:17

look more guilty than if I

36:20

just sit here. And you think

36:22

the FBI would be able to

36:24

look into his history or look

36:26

into his history, the tinder app

36:28

and see if there was any

36:31

connection because then you go is

36:33

that just happenstance that a guy

36:35

that she made contact with happened

36:37

to be at the crime scene

36:40

no see I think that's the

36:42

other reason why some of the

36:44

people in the public dismissed this

36:46

guy okay because when we see

36:49

the unsolved mysteries episode there's clearly

36:51

cell phone information from both victims

36:53

from both victims that is relayed

36:55

in that episode, right? That's where

36:57

we get a lot of these

37:00

timestamps from. Well, in fact, all

37:02

the timestamps from their cell phones.

37:04

So I think that people then

37:06

make the assumption that they know

37:09

everything about Kate's cell phone and

37:11

who she was talking to. But

37:13

go back to the article that

37:15

comes out two days after the

37:18

unsolved mysteries episode, where two days

37:20

after the unsolved mysteries episode. where

37:22

we have the Cleveland scene article

37:24

that comes out, this is no,

37:26

there's, they don't know everything about

37:29

they being law enforcement, Kate's phone.

37:31

We can put this together based

37:33

off of that article. Alex Zubin,

37:35

Kate's younger sister, says she knew

37:38

intimate details of Kate's life, but

37:40

when she made suggestions to investigators,

37:42

they were ignored or postponed. Quote,

37:44

when we suggested other ways to

37:47

get the information from Kate's phone

37:49

for evidence, they refused, said said

37:51

Zubin. when we suggested other ways

37:53

to get the information from Kate's

37:55

phone. This is telling us that

37:58

at some point law enforcement told

38:00

the victim's family

38:02

we are not able to access

38:04

a lot of stuff or some

38:07

stuff on her phone. Doesn't

38:09

make sense unless they

38:11

have unless they have unless

38:13

they have some reason to

38:15

hold back this information

38:17

and they don't want

38:19

to give it this

38:22

information to the family.

38:24

Persons close to the

38:26

family. able to successfully

38:28

unlock Kate's phone. So all

38:30

of the information that we

38:33

reviewed regarding her cell

38:35

phone is information that

38:37

they could pull with a subpoena from

38:40

her cell phone provider.

38:42

What time a text was sent,

38:44

what was said in a text,

38:46

and what time calls were made

38:48

and who the calls were made

38:50

to or who calls were received

38:52

from. There's

38:54

nothing in there saying

38:57

with her tender information

38:59

or other apps and

39:01

applications information that they

39:03

could probably pull from her

39:05

phone. And furthermore, like so, okay,

39:08

a couple of theories that we

39:10

discussed in 660 in. and that

39:12

have been openly discussed in this case

39:14

regularly is were the two followed. That

39:17

seemed to me to be the most

39:19

likely scenario when we first covered this

39:21

case. But now after watching Unsolved Mysteries,

39:24

we'd have that dash cam footage that

39:26

would seem to suggest that no, they

39:28

weren't followed because police would be

39:30

actively hunting down those vehicles with

39:33

license plates and such and vehicle

39:35

descriptions. And again, we go back

39:37

to how few vehicles were in

39:39

the gravel lot. in the very short

39:42

finite window of time that we

39:44

have. I was so angry that they

39:46

didn't use geofensing because it would

39:48

have been so easy at the

39:50

time if they were followed to see

39:53

what cell phone pulled into the lot

39:55

after one or both of the victims,

39:57

walked to the general area where...

39:59

both victims were, Kate's phone, shoots

40:02

them, and then leaves the scene

40:04

before police arrive. That would be

40:07

your suspect. That's what I was

40:09

shouting from the mountaintops then. But

40:11

that investigative tool only works if

40:14

you have somebody that is not

40:16

putting themselves at the crime scene.

40:19

Gio fencing doesn't work very well

40:21

if the person that committed this

40:23

crime was there and says and...

40:26

is fine with police knowing that

40:28

they were there at the time

40:31

of the murders. But again, maybe

40:33

that's because he had to change

40:35

his plan because the kayaker showed

40:38

up. Yeah, we know one individual

40:40

was there, like police said, this

40:43

is their words, not ours, before,

40:45

during, and after the murders. And

40:47

then I also wonder too, Captain,

40:50

I said at the beginning, it

40:52

takes a village, it takes a

40:54

village, and maybe it's gonna take

40:57

a village to solve this, but...

40:59

This case needs to be solved

41:02

for a million reasons. But I

41:04

question if the Metro Parks Police

41:06

and the FBI, how united are

41:09

they in working together sharing information?

41:11

Is this a battle to see

41:14

who can solve this case? Because

41:16

you ain't going to solve it

41:18

by yourselves. I have very little

41:21

confidence in the Metro Parks Police

41:23

Department solving this case. And Metro

41:26

Parks Police, you have more, a

41:28

more vested in. interest in this

41:30

case being solved in the FBI,

41:33

frankly, just because it's your jurisdiction.

41:35

And here's the deal. This individual

41:38

that you don't know everything about

41:40

and that you let leave your

41:42

crime scene, and you didn't properly

41:45

vet, he relocated to St. Louis.

41:47

The FBI, their jurisdiction, is on

41:50

the federal level, not the Cleveland

41:52

metro parks level. Right. Of course,

41:54

they have a field office. They

41:57

have an FBI office in St.

41:59

Louis. You guys

42:01

got to work together and vet

42:03

this guy, investigate this guy

42:05

properly and the investigation and

42:07

so many other aspects of

42:09

this investigation. Because I

42:12

think it's been, it

42:14

appears from our angle where

42:16

we sit that this has

42:18

been somewhat poorly handled and that

42:20

there were things that were, that could have been done

42:22

that were not done. And we've,

42:25

I go to this a lot because

42:27

it's so true. It's something that

42:29

the great, late great JFK said that

42:31

is so true. An error

42:34

only becomes a mistake once

42:36

you refuse to correct it. There's

42:38

still plenty of

42:40

time to get

42:42

justice for

42:44

these two lovely

42:47

people that were killed on a

42:49

park bench on a Tuesday. There's

42:52

still time to get justice

42:54

for their families. Anyone

42:56

with information or tips

42:59

about the unsolved double

43:01

homicide should call the

43:03

FBI Cleveland field

43:05

office at 216

43:07

-622 -6842 or call

43:10

Crime Stoppers of

43:12

Cuyahoga County at

43:14

216 -252 -7463. You can also

43:16

submit a tip at tips

43:18

.fbi .gov and there may be

43:20

a $100 ,000 reward for

43:22

information that leads to an

43:24

arrest and conviction. All

43:42

right. Want to thank you

43:44

so much for joining us here in the

43:46

garage each and every week. Thanks

43:48

for telling your friends. Thanks for

43:50

sharing these cases on social

43:52

media and putting pressure on law

43:54

enforcement to do their job

43:56

to serve, protect and solve these

43:59

crimes. Colonel, do we

44:01

have any recommended reading for the

44:03

beautiful listeners? Thank you, Captain. If

44:05

the beautiful listeners out there heard,

44:08

if they had the opportunity to

44:10

listen to last week's show, the

44:12

Pendleton Quadruple homicide story, you already

44:14

know that for the month of

44:17

February, we are honoring Ohio murder

44:19

victim, Sierra Jogan. On July 19th,

44:21

2016, Sierra went for a bike

44:23

sickle ride in rural Northwest Ohio.

44:26

Sierra was kidnapped less than 500

44:28

feet from her home, and it

44:30

was later learned that she had

44:33

been murdered by a previously convicted

44:35

violent offender. A very dangerous man,

44:37

his name is James Warley, killed

44:40

Sierra Jogan. We are attempting to

44:42

support an organization called Keep Our

44:44

Girl Safe. Keeping Our Girl Safe

44:47

is a grassroots organization created by

44:49

Sierra's longtime boyfriends. Josh's family to

44:51

honor Sierra's legacy, keeping our girls

44:54

safe advocates, educates, empowers, and engages

44:56

against violence towards women. They offer

44:58

free survival classes focused on women's

45:01

safety mainly to high schools in

45:03

Northwest Ohio. For the month of

45:05

February, True Crime Garage has committed

45:08

all beer fund donations. We'll go

45:10

to keeping our girls safe, a

45:12

non-profit organization, and as a thank

45:15

you for your help in this

45:17

effort, we will choose three beer

45:19

fund contributors at random and mail

45:22

each of them a keep our

45:24

girls safe safety pack, which includes

45:26

door alarm and window alarm, seat

45:29

belt cutter, window breaker for your

45:31

car, self-defense keychain, flashlight, and a

45:33

self-defense tip card, and I will

45:36

also throw in a signed copy

45:38

of my book, the Delphi Murders,

45:40

the Quest to Find the Man

45:43

on the Bridge. If you want

45:45

to donate to the beer fund,

45:47

we thank you in advance. You

45:50

can go to true crime garages.com.

45:52

Click on the pint class. And

45:54

if you need more information or

45:57

want more information about keeping our

45:59

girls safe, you can find that.

46:01

kogs.com. And for everything, true

46:03

crime, check out true

46:06

crime garage.com. Until next

46:08

week. Be good, be

46:10

kind, and don't litter.